Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[SpyreX]

I hate today so much.

I swear when Mina dies and actually flips scum I'm systematically carpet bombing the great protectorate. Even from the grave.

ABR, please give your plan and lets move forward. PLEASE.

[Iecerint]

I dislike this implicit "let's end the day" push from a handful of players.

And the point of the day isn't the play worship. It's to find scum.

[SpyreX]

Implicit?

I'm pretty explicit about it. Don't play coy.

And toot that horn! Find thems scums!

Because getting a whole lot of "ehhh, err, ehhh she's not scum yo'" without anything else to bite into really gets my wheels spinning.

[Iecerint]

Nah, you're being implicit about it. "More forward" doesn't outright say it. Same with whoever said it on the last page.

I think CMAR is scum. Waiting for Plum to weigh-in, because she has the same experience with him as ooba and I do, but hasn't commented yet.

I think the case on Ortolan makes sense, even if I want a lot more content from him before I'd considering moving on it unless I had nothing else going on.

I would not cry in my sleep if Fate died.

I think ABR is likely to be non-town, but I'm not sure what kind of role he has. There are better lynches, but I do not trust him.

[SpyreX]

You're going to argue with me whether or not my ABR SET FORTH YOUR PLAN SO WE CAN MOVE means end the day?

And Fate's WORSHIP THEN LYNCH isn't explicit either?

Are you arguing just for the sake or arguing at this point?

[Fate]

The leading wagon has all of three fucking votes on it. You think yelling to end the day is actually going to MAKE IT HAPPEN without AT LEAST another 10 pages?

I think the case on Ortolan makes sense, even if I want a lot more content from him before I'd considering moving on it unless I had nothing else going on.

So you admit he's been scummy, but want him to post more content first?

Errr? His LACK of content in his recent posts is all you need. Wagon time.
*Notes the huge amount of resistance to this awesome wagon*

[SpyreX]

Baaaaa

Unvote
Vote: CMAR (Ort)

[Iecerint]

I didn't look back at Fate's. If that's how he put it, then his was explicit. Yours wasn't. I will argue with you if you make it an issue, and you had made it an issue.

So, in a sense, yeah -- I argue for the sake of arguing lots, especially if people say things that are purely rhetorical ("don't be coy") AND they don't make sense ("'move forward' 100% means 'lynch'").

Ya, outright lynching a player who has posted 3 times is a little silly. Wanting him to post more before lynching him is a good idea regardless of your lynchee's alignment. And he should want to oblige if he's town, anyway.

There are players in this game who have only posted once. It is nowhere near time to end the day.

[SpyreX]

Soo you were in fact being coy when you said "some people" and actually meant "SpyreX and only SpyreX"

And I guess it wasn't explicit enough. I suppose I could have meant move forward to delicious tea parties because, well, that is the natural extension of moving forward in a mafia game.

I mean if you REALLY want me to lynch you for senseless arguing I can probably pull that together if you'd like?

[Snow_Bunny]

Mod: VLA for the weekend.

[Iecerint]

I misremembered Fate's. I thought you were both vague. I think my last post makes that clear.

You could have meant "evaluate ABR's plan" or "use that information to narrow suspicions depending upon what it looks like."

If I had said "explicit" upfront, something tells me that there is a 110% chance that we would instead be having this discussion about me putting words in your mouth.

If you want to lynch me for bad reasons, you are either scum or not playing very well.

[SpyreX]

If you had said "I hate when people explicitly want the day to end" I'm pretty sure my response would have been "Why? Long day 1's are stttupppiddddd"

Just for the record there is a 324324% chance of that happening.

I do approve, once again, of the backhanded I'm scum but not.

Man up. Do it or don't.

Yo Fate:

You wanna gamble for the lynch today? Even's on Ice, Odds on Ort, a 10 is Mina?

Sound good?

[Iecerint]

You are normally a ball of love. Today you are not a ball of love. You are capricious, and you are not even playing consistently with the rules you say you use to judge others. I think your play has been scummy.

However, I am forced to reconcile that with your letting us know how to manage our night actions due to your ability, which gave you gillions of town points.

That summarizes my ambivalence.

[Iecerint]

Yo, SX, who'd'ya mean specifically by "the great protectorate"? MO? Me? Who?

[SpyreX]

I am definitely not a ball of love. I've had a day. That was at the end of a week. That, really, was at the end of a month. I'll freely admit my irritation is pouring over into this.

However, that doesn't change a thing. What's so scummy about my play? What's so scummy about getting irritated watching half the game being 2kool4playin and the other ones playing slappywags with picking a target and moving. What am I not "playing consistently" with? Clear. Examples.

Fate put it pretty clear: Biggest wagon? 3 votes. 21 pages in that is ridiculous.

And as for "looking for scum instead of playing worship" I'm pretty sure the whole plan is ABR has some secret stratgem for, in fact, finding scum via worship which is pretty tech.

Fate, ABR, Els are off my list. At this point I'd literally kill anyone else.

This is why I'm never allowed to be a dayvig I think.

[SpyreX]

MO is the one that makes me itch the most. But all these Mina is townnnnn without the nice, clear bite with a different direction to go irritate me yes.

[totallynotmafia]

Urgh, if scum are deliberately convoluting the thread in order to prevent people from reading it thoroughly, then it's working.

It still makes sense to me that at least one of the two players joining the game were recruited by scum...at first I was thinking they may have both been recurited by two different scum groups, but some people seem to think that there is only one group due to certain information they've garnered. Out of the two, Ortolan seems like he was recruited by scum to me. DTMaster has confirmed he was recruited while Ortolan said he thinks being added to the game shouldn't be discussed, and I think if someone was recruited by scum they would be more likely to try and keep it on the down-low. He also was getting quite frustrated at being voted which I find suspicious, and I didn't like how he just said "ABR can lead the town" without actually stating why this was a good idea.

Vote: CMAR

(Ortolan)

Could you please confirm whether or not you were recruited?

That's not to say I'm not suspicious of DTM. I particularly don't like his attack on MO, it was pretty clear that the two posts of MO's that DTM was claiming were backtracking were by the two different people in the hydra so it was misrepresenting in a way, I think most town members would realise that there are going to be some inconsistencies in a hydra regardless of whether they are town or scum. However, I think that town may also have recruited one of the players seeing as some people seem to have their own quicktopics, so perhaps there is some kind of recruiting mason or something and at the moment Ortolan seems scummier to me, particularly because DTM seems to have been very open everything.

Other things I've noticed which I don't like:

@ABR: Why did you say that you didn't need to be targetted by any pro-town forces instead of just saying you didn't need any doc protection? The way you said it seems like you are trying to deter cop investigations and the like as well.

@SK: Why would you vote, unvote, and vote again in the same post? What is the purpose of that?

I also don't like Chronopie thinking that the Egyptian and Norse gods should be worshipped because they are "cool mythologies" (surely we should be much more thoughtful about it than that) and Faraday saying that Plum's vote on herself was distracting, which I don't really understand when because of the voting mechanic it wasn't for herself anyway. Also when someone uses the reason that they find someone's posts to be a bit "off" as a reason to be suspicious of someone I tend to find that a bit "off" myself.

I still have two assignmnents due so I'm going to struggle to find time to post in the next couple of days, but I'll see how I go.

[Iecerint]

The thing that's sticking out from my perspective is that I think ABR has IMO violated your "cognitive dissonance" tell multiple times, but you haven't even commented on it if I'm not mistaken. Which would appear to itself be a form of cognitive dissonance on your part.

I have a hypothesis to explain your behavior re: ABR without you being scum, but I'm waiting a few days for the next infodump. I'm still thinking about whether it's worth it. Said hypothesis also predicts what ABR's plan is going to be, since it's nearly the only way a D1 player with his implied ability set could have a nonarbitrary bias in favor of specifically 2 god-factions.

Your townlist is pretty nearly my scumlist. Mina had a scummy start, but I think her recent posts have been pretty great. It's possible that that is daytalk-driven, though, depending on who the scum are. (I'm not sure what to make of her response to my "daytalk" revelation; has she never heard of daytalk before?) Still, wouldn't want to lynch her at this point. I really want to see the post on me that was coming up ages ago.

As my comment about my QT indicates, I share your annoyance with certain players.

[SpyreX]

Show what you're talking about with ABR.

[Katy]

So much bickering today. Well, at least it looks like it's going to be lighter activity for the weekend so maybe I can keep up now.

I'm pretty sure Mina is town. While I see Spyre's points on her, I think she's been one of the players who has been active, kept on topic and been pushing people pretty hard. I also have some sympathy as someone who has a hard time at the beginning of the game and only gets going once the game gets rolling for serious.

I'm still leaning town on Iecerint. He feels similar to town games I have played with him, although I have yet to play a scum game with him, so I'm not discounting ABR's opinion that he's similar to their scum game together, so that's confusing. I may have to go look at a scum game for him just to be sure.

I also haven't found any of his actions in this game to be particularly scummy. We have no idea who scum are yet, so I actually find his willingness to claim a worship target to be more townie than scum. I would think if he were a Norse god who were scum, or scum who wanted Norse gods to be worshipped for whatever reasons, he wouldn't volunteer that information so readily unless everyone was being pressured to claim a worship target.

People I don't like so much:

J-Scope

: He only has two posts so I want to see more from him to be sure, but his two posts are VERY "fly-under-radar" type posts. He declares MO, Mina, and Spyre town, but doesn't say why except for Spyre.

He then does the 'Iec feels off to me" that I so dislike and talks briefly about ABR's worship plan, supporting it weakly.

His only other post is in response to Fate's FOS on Faraday:

Fos's are worthless. He's done nothing to change my read on him.

There's a distinct lack of substantive content in his posts, and the one above seems to refer to his "read" on Faraday, which he has not actually given, so I'm not sure if he wants to give the impression he has, or what that quote is supposed to actually contribute to the game.

Despite his distaste for it, I have no problem with

FOS: J-Scope

Fate

is one of those players I just can't tell at all. As far as I can tell he's either amusing but ultimately worthless (or scummy) or one of those people who is weird and incomprehensible, but ultimately useful. I'm willing to wait and see for the moment, or at least defer to those who know him.

And that leaves

Nikanor

. Nikanor was waiting for the game to begin to jump in and place a random vote. This is not in itself a scumtell, but I do know of player's who have trying to make the first "random" vote as part of their strategy.

And then this:

I must say I'm tempted to vote for Elscouta. The contradiction between his location and his signature is glaring at me.

He's already making a random vote - why is he throwing out more randomness? What was the point of this post?

Then he "pseudo-votes" SK I assume for trying to draw info out of Fate, but actually votes Mina for the sole purpose of getting "secret info" from Spyre. That seems a backwards course of action to me.

Finally there's the attempt to strongarm votes on Parama, first by asking in such a way as to imply he has concrete information, then it turns out it's almost completely meta based on one third party game. Meta is useful, but what has Parama done scummy in this game?

Vote: DarkStalker

(Nikanor)

[Iecerint]

Here's a series of quotes with summaries that give you the relevant narrative:

OK, so.

1. ABR thinks Iec is trying to get people to worship the Norse Gods (using [Iec's] clever strategy of not wanting anyone to claim worship targets, but w/e).
2. ABR thinks Iec is bad for doing so.
3. ABR thinks it's bad in part because it could reveal players' factions,
4. Which implies that ABR thinks revealing players' factions is a bad thing.
5. But when ABR thought he saw a Norse God breadcrumb from Iec, he announced it to the class! Huh! I wonder why he did that!

The second question [in context, the point of me bringing this up] is to [ask ABR to] indicate why this isn't an example of SX's definition of cognitive dissonance.

ABR says I'm scummy for trying to expose god factions, then he tries to expose my faction. First instance of CD.

I think everyone revealing their faction would be bad, yes.

If one person is so clumsy as to inadvertently point to his faction by proclaiming who he wants to worship, then that is less bad than everyone revealing their faction.

The answer makes no sense because when I announced my intended worship target we'd already reached the point where several players had claimed worship targets; proclaiming who you want to worship does not indicate your faction or whether you have a faction.

OK, then, why are you so excited about me? Why not attack any of the other players who have claimed worship targets? Why not target Els way way back when he brought up the idea? Why not target Els now for being the cause of everything?

Your fixation on me makes no sense.

ABR says that I'm scummy for wanting to use worship targets to expose god factions (he said I was trying to create a "domino effect"), but he's attacking me, a player who was at first opposed to said system, rather than the player who suggested it or the players who jumped on it immediately. Second instance of CD.

Well I decided to pick you because the others didn't strike me as being as scummy.

This is fine, but he had not substantiated it in any way. So...

OK, then, what are the actual scummy things about me? Because the things you've listed so far are both not very scummy and apply more to other players IMO.

...I asked him to.

But it also applies to you. So you are scummy.

And he can't. This isn't CD, though; it's just hoping that the discussion topic will go away. Which is still scummy for its own reasons.

To be clear, I think ABR is probably 3rd party rather than scum at the moment. But it was weird that this totally blew past you given what you said earlier. I even gave you a shout-out in the first bit there.

[ooba]

Town
Fate, DTM, SpyreX

ABR moves back to the neutral list

Scum

Iece

– He’s just off this game. His accusations have been wild. His case on Fate was a stretch.

Mina

- Cognitive dissonance as SpyreX pointed out
- Contradictions in people she called out as I pointed out in my previous post
- Subtle scummy painting of SpyreX - “Like everyone else in this game, I thought you were town since your role reveal, but your behaviour since you came back from the anaesthetics is not making sense to me now. “

I can also see strong

Iecerint-Mina connections

- Iece's initial Mina rolefishing case is much stronger than Fates - but votes Fate. Someone asks him about it and he tries to hype up the Fate case (ISO:18) just to downplay why he is not voting Mina.
- Iecerint wants to sleep on the Mina case – no posts on that afterwards
- 353 - Mina feels Iece deserves a big post but doesn’t follow up
- 463 - “That's the only reasons you ever gave for suspecting Iec.”
- Iece setting up lynches on Mina flip: "I suppose a scumMina flip would give us scumO scumDTM"

SK

- This is all you get about the worship benefits in the OP : “Generally more worship is a good thing for the group receiving it. “
- SK has twice talked about the worship wincon - 104, 271. IMO it’s a slip.
- DarkStalker also guilty of this and far more specific – “3rd party with a win con of being worshipped X # of times”

CMAR

- Meta read: Initial posts look forced
- Activity in this game pales in comparison to other games on site. Has made thirty posts after his post in this one.

Other possibilities:

Mighty Orbots, Parama for Posts + Reactions to Iece, Mina. ortolan also guilty of not commenting on Mina, Iece but he has just three posts so I'd put him below MO, parama in the list.

Suggested Plan

- Lynch one of Mina, Iece
- (Mina\Iece), SK, CMAR, MO, Parama, ortolan declare their worship targets in the thread. Lynch them if they've deviated from it.

[ooba]

Add Katy to the list of probables.
- Calls Iece wagon as scum driven since "scum always like a Iece mislynch"
- Both Iece and Mina are town (last post)

Also forgot to vote

Unvote. Vote: Snow bunny (Mina)

Would be willing to switch to Iece.

[SpyreX]

Hot damn an ooba strikes. I like. I want more.

@Ice:

There IS some things I'll want to discuss with you in there that actually peak my interest but:

ABR says I'm scummy for trying to expose god factions, then he tries to expose my faction. First instance of CD.

No. ABR, and I, called you out for exposing your own faction. In a way that made no town sense. That's not what I'm talking about.

The other part though with the domino effect business I may want to look at. That IS actually interesting. Probably not enough to sway me but enough to make me look REALLY critically at whatever his plan is.

[Iecerint]

@ Katy, J-Scope is the same person as Faraday. Faraday's mistakenly posted with a hydra account.

@ ooba, I followed-up on the Mina case the same night that I said that; it's toward the bottom of one of my posts.

Fate wasn't a crazy person in the other game I played with him. I had no other context through which to interpret his behavior. I find it a little odd that you don't see how egregious his quick three votes were outside of a "Fate is VI" framework. Also, Mina had already responded to my concern, so there was no reason to continue voting for her.

I absolutely think that one of O and DTM is scum if Mina is scum. Do you think my reasoning for that is controversial?

I agree with you about Mina never posting about me.