Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[SaintKerrigan]

2.

If scum belong to one of the god factions, they get benefits from being part of the majority-worshiped god factions. They may be able to influence where worship votes go, whether through persuasion, role-related ability, or otherwise. The point is, we have no idea yet how scum can influence worship votes, and making it easier for them to know where worship votes are going just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I don't buy this simply because, we don't know what the gods do. Yes they (scum) could be a god faction (or all the gods are scum or something), no we don't know that. If we all worship to the gods of day vigs, we all might become day vigs. But do we really know that? I donno. Would it be cool, yes!.

I expect healthy doses of criticism and paranoia of the worship votes, but if we can use it to confirm an entire faction as town, then we should use the mechanic. It exists for a reason and I expect there to be some resemblance of balance in it.

Posts like these read as scum paranoid of the unknown, rather town, skeptical of the unknown. Squelching potential powerups is a priority for the former.

Ok, let me put it this way: Spyrex is a deity role. If her worship faction gets the most worship votes, she gets a benefit to her role. It's reasonable to think that other deities, at least, experience something similar. So if scum have a means to influence worship votes, they will use it to empower their players as much as possible. The more they know about our worship votes, the more easily they can plan their strategy. I'd much rather prevent the scum from learning more info about our worship votes (and anything else in general) than is necessary.

How about this - we get the scummiest people (say 4-5) to declare their worship votes beforehand in the thread .. I say we should lynch them if we find out they've deviated from it.

And what's to say there isn't a scum ability to change people's worship votes? Immediate mislynches, and we might not even know it until the day after (or whenever true roles are revealed).

Which reminds me of something -- due to Spyrex's ability, it's very likely that the lynch rolecop will be shifted down two places as well. Just something to keep in mind.

2. What made me go from vote worthy to least scummiest, especially with the revelation of my scum-balls?

You're not least scummiest overall, you're just currently sitting at the bottom of my suspect list. As for why you're down there, I've got other people piquing my interest more than you at the moment.

And an MO vote. What are people seeing in this wagon, 'cause I'm not getting it.

Did Iecrint just abandon his vote on Scummy McFatepants for a META wagon?

Awwwwww HELLLLL NAW

You simply can't be first in everything, including scumlists.

Satisfactory answer. I would've asked you in our QT but then it wouldn't have been as an effective distancing vote.

Speculation: Fate's role requires him to get lynched or killed.

Something like the above quote and the scum-oriented wincon he posted a while back aren't things you post when you're actually trying to stay alive. Plus he's been getting antsy about people debarking his wagon. This reads like someone who's trying to die, but without making it blatantly obvious so people won't kill him off.

Btw, MO wagon is a good one. I have heard they will give cookies to everyone on it.

SaintKerrigan, what do we say about people who give out cookies for lynches?

Cookies are scummy, biyatch!

Unvote: DarkStalker.
Vote: Totallynotmafia

(Elscouta)

Saintkerrigan is a decent chance for scum too.

...because?

"he" can be anyone. it can be you telling me who you will worship, or abr telling me who abr will worship, etc.

What? Specificity is good, man.

That . . . could have gone better. Got the job, then found out I'd be one of those people who go door to door begging for money, then had the person training me get into an argument with someone about property boundries (he wanted us to leave, my supervisor decided to act like a child and not move 10 feet) which resulted in the cops being called. So I quit halfway through my first day. THE SEARCH CONTINUES.

Ugh, I feel for ya. Had a similar experience myself a long while back.

Not sure yet what to make about Tar's claim.

Ortolan's #376 reads off to me. The frustration doesn't feel genuine. Either that or he's freaking out over three votes. Need to go back and reread him to see if anything of merit shows up.

Fate posts on Page 16 make me feel even more confident in the idea that he's trying to get himself lynched/killed.

Ortolan's #380 continues the fake frustration factor.

Unvote: rajrhcpfreak.
Vote: Dramonic. (Fate)

What's with all the OMGUS?

@ Plum: Serious vote for me or no?

SK posted this after Ice attacked Fate for this already. This is more of a scummy piggy back then Ortolan.

How is this scummy? It's still early in the game, and I wanted to question Fate on it just as well as Ice.

Also, why do you think I should die? Say it as concisely as you possibly can.

Mina's Post #421 I like.

Unvote: Totallynotmafia.
Vote: Nikanor.

Cookies are scummy and all, but so are albino water snakes (wild guess because I'm too lazy to figure out what they actually are).

Seriously, though, that Mina hop is still bugging me. Plus I'm not sure what to make about your Parama push. Something feels mislynchy about this.

[SaintKerrigan]

...and I just realized I forgot to account for the shift again. Blarg

Unvote: Nikanor
Vote: DarkStalker

(Nikanor)

[Beholder]

Day 1, Vote Count 8

The Crumbling Waste

Within the core of Sanctuary the remnants begin their struggle anew...

1 Starbuck (0) -
2 Faraday (0) -
3 ABR (0) -
4 manho (0) -
5 dramonic (0) - Ortolan, S_B
6 chronopie (0) -
7 Fate (2) - Chronopie, Elscouta
8 ooba (0) - DTM
9 Mighty Orbots (2) -
10 Parama (1) -
11 Plum (0) - raj
12 totallynotmafia (0) - DarkStalker
13 SaintKerrigan (1) -
14 Elscouta (1) -
15 DarkStalker (0) - CryMeARiver, SaintKerrigan
16 Snow_Bunny (1) - SpyreX, Nikator, Starbuck
17 Nikanor (2) -
18 Mina (3) - dramonic
19 SpyreX (0) -
20 Katy (0) -
21 Tarhalindur (0) -
22 Percy (0) - Percy
23 Kairyuu (0) - ooba, Iece
24 rajrhcpfreak (1) - Faraday, Rampage
25 CryMeARiver (2) - Fate, Mina, Plum
26 Iecerint (2) - Mighty Mighty Mighty Orbots, Parama
27 Ortolan (3) -
28 DTMaster (2) -

Votes Required to Lynch: 15
Not Voting: 5

[Faraday]

100% believe Tar's claim - it's a horrible claim for hypo tar scum to make as if we don't have a Godfather dead by then and he's still alive, well yeah it pretty much ensures his death, so like SpyreX based on the way he's chose to come forward with his role information I definitely think it's legit.

[DarkStalker]

Ok first game back from long break and already thread be large and have vote craziness that be confusing.

Comments:

Setup speculation time...how many scum do you think there are?

Not sure what you think we'll gain from this but as 25 players usually has 5-6 and we have 27 give or take with replacements and possibility of multiple scum factions i would guess somewhere between 5-8. If you assume only 1 group and an SK or 2 factions of equal size as ABR suggests in post 95 and 98 and give only one precise answer then i'd say 8

__________

Cases:

This is my first Large Game on this site, so I'm not quite sure what to expect for scum size. Maybe 7-8 (25% of 28)? Why do you ask, ABR? What useful information do you think that would give you?

I have a few theories about the set-up, but I'm worried they'll lead to rolefishing. The only thing I'll say is that if someone has a great reason for why we should worship a certain faction (and it won't give away his role), he or she should come forward. (Right now, I'd guess that it wouldn't be such a great idea to worship the Old Ones.)

PokerFace, check the numbers in brackets beside each player's names. The

names

aren't moved, but the vote count is.

Hey Mina, preview is your friend.

Yeah, but this site takes so long to load that by the time I preview, three people have already cross-posted with me.

Mina was clearly hypocritical about to fish or not to fish which is a shit question. As IeC pointed out here:

I considered Mina to be rolefishing. I think rolefishing is almost always scummy, and I have no reason to believe that this is an exception.

I'm think her explanation after I pointed out the discrepancy is OK for now, though, so I left it alone after that.

(PF interjection "Just OK?" then why you still irratated and noting all these things?)

But I should note that, upon reflection, it's a little weird that this sequence of events would happen:

1. Mina considers whether she should ask about the late addition's alignment.
2. Mina decides it's OK and asks.
3. Mina says she's worried about set-up speculation leading to role-fishing.

I think I would've expected townMina to lampshade (2) in (3). It's in the back of my head.

Re: Fate, from his post, it looks like he's intending to vote ani (=DS). So it looks like he's voting his suspect rather than the fellow 2 above the fellow. Hence, not understanding the rules in some way. I did notice his second point, but interpreted it as like cosmic dramatic irony or some unknown mechanic due to his vote for DS appearing serious.

The only point of the vote mechanic ability (as far as we know) is to create confusion about vote targets. Up to a point, it is reasonable to be confused, but after that point, your behavior is anti-town at best, either because:

1. You are not reading.
2. You have poor reading comprehension.
3. You are scum overestimating how long it reasonably takes town to figure shit out and are consequently overshooting.
4. You are scum trying to bring confusion.

Mina did the floating between fish or not fish over the course of a few posts which is pretty bad and yet somehow not bad enough for Iec? Those remarks were made fairly early in the game so Iec holding back a vote is rather pointless if he really thought it was fishing. I don't buy his reason for holding back as Holding back weakens discussion in RVA where you should random vote and stir things up.

Also here is another way to possibly look at Iec's actions. Iec points out what mina is doing as kinda scummy but doesn't vote for it. This gives posibility that Iec is scum trying to distance poorly from their scum buddy mina (Think about it, look like you are against mina while not voting her and actually putting her in danger. Looks like poor distancing to me) Only other solution i can think of to iec's early actions is he is scum that wants others to vote mina without having to vote mina himself. Whichever reason for his actions there he is not looking townish

not liking fate for 111 and 113. You say ABR is town and then you bait ABR by answering his question:

ABR is town, btw.

FOS: Fate

I didn't do anything town-worthy yet. Either you are sucking up to me -God help you- or you know something I don't. Which is it?

with a statement you know something he doesn't? If you think he is town then baiting ABR is stupid no matter how lion king really went down (yes a bad joke but hell i didn't see the sequel's either. Also ABR is forming a posse? I don't think a scum ABR would try to do that sort of thing so blatantly. I think he would be more underhanded as scum and wouldn't do something like that in the open so this sort of thing looks interesting and perhaps worth considering)

Iec has 2 possible reasons for being scum as outlined while mina and fate have only one reason or are not playing smart. So Iec is my best bet at moment.

He seems reserved at scum hunting to a point he directs others towards scumy players instead of acting on them himself like town should

Unvote: totallynotmafia

Vote: rajrhcpfreak

(Iec)

I am caught up to post 140. I am still a bit behind but looking at the vote count just above tells me this vote won't cause an instant lynch so i still got time to read everything else. I'll try and read rest soon enough and or discuss things with animorph later on. see you peeps later

[Katy]

But it also applies to you. So you are scummy.

I love having iecerint in games because he's a favorite mislynch target for scum. Observing how people react to him is often informative. Seeing if this wagon picks up speed could be very instructive. Oops did I say that out loud?

So I've only taken notes up to page 5 and read the last three pages that are new since last night, not ready to vote based on only that but I have some candidates already.

I've got my eye on Raj and Fate (although granted I've only read closely about one-third of the game). Raj seems to be skimming and not paying attention to detail which is more characteristic of scum than town, and Fate is pinging my "talking out of his ass" radars. His posts seem to be a jumble of nonsense, bad ideas, pretending to know stuff and scrambling to explain the aforementioned things. I would vote for Fate if I were voting at this moment, but I don't like voting with a good portion of the game not really read closely by me.

As for worship, I'm happy to worship anyone who puts forth the best campaign. I am especially willing to worship any gods who offer me cookies and/or magical powers. Will continue to read and take notes from both ends until I'm all caught up.

[dramonic]

This reads as "People in worshippable factions should totally out themselves for me"

[Faraday]

I love having iecerint in games because he's a favorite mislynch target for scum. Observing how people react to him is often informative. Seeing if this wagon picks up speed could be very instructive. Oops did I say that out loud?

he is? welp I definitely wouldn't consider his play anything of the sort.

i'm going to be v/la for a few days, my uncle's in hospital so yeah.

gonna see if i can manage to read what i've missed now.

[Faraday]

yeah not in the mood to read these pages today. sorry >_>

[Iecerint]

I love having iecerint in games because he's a favorite mislynch target for scum. Observing how people react to him is often informative. Seeing if this wagon picks up speed could be very instructive. Oops did I say that out loud?

he is? welp I definitely wouldn't consider his play anything of the sort.

Yeah, my play in my games with her is pretty different from my games with you. Refer to D1 of Percy's StarsAligned II for what she's talking about. In short, lots of people started voting me because I was posting too much (no joke! they said i was trying to keep the game going fast so that "town" couldn't keep up or something like that) and because they had a "bad feeling" about me and all that jazz. She and I both died D1. I also got in trouble for posting too much (and with WAY more volume) in my first Newbie game on the site, which was my other game with (well, she replaced into Twilight and then I accidentally killed her, but that sort of doesn't count).

@ DS, I think you didn't read my early game carefully enough. At that point, I had already voted Mina and then unvoted her (in order to vote Fate after his absurd escapades -- and you appear to agree that Fate was scummy). The reason for the "looks OK to me for now" phrase is that someone had explicitly asked why I unvoted Mina after doing as much to vote Fate.

Point being that your interpretation that I'm distancing without voting doesn't hold up. Not that I couldn't still be distancing in principle, I guess, but you're nonetheless missing some relevant content.

He seems reserved at scum hunting to a point he directs others towards scumy players instead of acting on them himself like town should

Assuming that I'm parsing that monstrosity properly, you're arguing that I'm not scumhunting? Are you serious? I've pursued cases to varying degrees on Mina, Fate, DTM, CMAR, and ABR throughout the day. I've made my suspects abundantly clear. I would challenge you to find another player in the game who has scumhunted to a comparable extent.

Then again. Uh. It looks like you're only 1/4 of the way through the game. So yeah. At least you're advertising your reads as you go.

[Iecerint]

V/LA through Tuesday. Visiting family, and then I have a big exam Tuesday morning. I'm an addict, so you will probably not notice a difference in my activity, but just so ye know.

[Chronopie]

@Mod: Check my sig, V/LA

[Snow_Bunny]

It says actions and votes, but I'll make sure.

This is a bit old, but, didn't you first say that it was only with actions and that you weren't sure it applied to votes as well? See here:

Whatup game.

I am interested in ABR's business and will subscribe to the newsletter.

HOWEVER, I am waiting for confirmation on something but this whole hullaballoo with the voting may a.) be my fault b.) not be contained to voting and c.) only fixable in two ways - one of which is lynching me.

Depending on response I will have more information.

Well, I found that strange, actually. Why the confusion with the vote thing if your ability specified it affected votes as well? I was getting a town read from this move, but I read this again and it ticked me off. Yes, it's a bit small, but it caught my eye. Enough to put aside that town feeling for a while. Maybe I'm just overreacting...

DTM looks like a aggressive townie to me. I personally haven't seen any scum that aggressive so early on. Though, I am finding Iec town as well. Town vs town here, at least for me.

Oh, btw, I would worship Judea-Christian Angels. I really don't think this will bring us more info just like this, but well.

Still reading...

[Kairyuu]

Beginning my read shortly. Expect a post POSSIBLY tonight, tomorrow after work at the latest (a second job offer came in out of nowhere and took up the majority of my day). Good news is that so long as THIS job works out, I'll be able to actually devote time to mafia again.

[Iecerint]

As I read it, it looks like he always knew it was based on voting (probably because the effect was obvious), but wanted confirmation on what other kinds of things it affected. So I think you have it backward. And I'd probably get confirmation on what "actions" meant.

Granted, I probably would've gotten said confirmation before the game started.

[Snow_Bunny]

@Mina @Snowbunny

Hehe doesn't matter if you suspect me. There's no way I'm getting lynched in case you didn't notice. As it is, I will have invaluable information for you tomorrow and it's too risky to kill me before that.

I know chances are you won't get lynched, but I'm still wary. I'll be waiting for that info.

(I'm still way behind, but I wanted to answer this.)

[Katy]

This reads as "People in worshippable factions should totally out themselves for me"

Eh, it was just a fancy way of saying "I don't particularly care at the moment who I place my worship vote on." Also, since Alfred was hinting at some sort of worshipping plan earlier, I was hoping to get him to offer me a cookie.

he is? welp I definitely wouldn't consider his play anything of the sort.

Yeah, as Iecerint said, in the games I have played with him, he has been like delicious candy for scums to vote, and I'm not sure what it is about him, since he seems like a nice guy to me, but he attracts a lot of "something's off about you" and "I get a bad feeling about you" votes (in my experience) and I find those awfully suspicious-making. Mostly what I have noted in this game though was at least one person who threw down a vague "Yeah something off about iec" without casting a vote yet.

Anyway, I'm on page ten now. So far I am inclined to believe DTM (for now) on his role restriction claim. I don't know anything about Kickass, so I don't know if it makes sense with the role. I do note that he referenced Rule 19 and that his restriction makes his posts hard to read since you have to wade through all the cursing bs to make out any substance. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he saw Rule 19 and made up a post restriction. I've done something similar as a third party role since it got me out of a fair bit of hard work when it came to posting. Still I think it's that's a stretch that would need something more to support a case than just that speculation.

I actually thought SpyreX's list of contradictory posts on Mina was well thought-out, but I worse than Mina's contradictions is Nikanor's "I voted to see if Spyre would give out secret info." I think it's a bad and lazy vote - if you want someone to explain something, pressure THEM to explain it. If you want to place a vote you should place it to kill scum.

Anyway, I should be able to get fully caught up tomorrow and ready to decide who is really the scum here, after I figure out my top suspects and give them a closer read. I have lost my ID, and unless I find it by tomorrow night, I guess I will have time to post when I would otherwise be drinking.

[DTMaster]

GAH. I FUCKING LOST MY POST. GOING TO RAGE OUTSIDE THEN COME BACK TO REDO IT. :<<<<<<<<

[Percy]

OK guys, still working on my catchup post, but my evening of "catch up on this game" has turned into "babysit my nephew" at very short notice

Post incoming tomorrow.

[manho]

@Manho
1. So deity factions. Well, judging by the last deity vote split.

Worship Results:
Norse Gods: 25%
The Great Old Ones: 25%
Egyptian Gods: 25%
Judeo-Christian Angels: 25%

Gods and god aligned factions are equaled out.

Theory: This means that we have equal amounts of god-aligned people in each faction as it stands and/or gods. This also means that people who claimed to: "I would worship X deity" over "I (have to) worship X deity" don't have specific requirements to worship a deity.

I have a feeling that ungod aligned people didn't worship last night (As I claimed), which brought the even split.

i think the worship vote thing start day 1, not night 0.

[Starbuck]

I'm behind and catching up. You guys are killing me with the speed of this game.

[Starbuck]

Starbuck, which questions in particular do you think I haven't answered satisfactorily? Also, which of my posts did you think were either too much role speculation or not enough?

First off, not enough? I never said anything of that sort.


Posts of yours that I feel were rolefishing:

Question to DTMaster and Ortolan: do you know why were you both added to the game? Were you recruited by a specific faction?

Blatant rolefishing.

I have a few theories about the set-up, but I'm worried they'll lead to rolefishing. The only thing I'll say is that if someone has a great reason for why we should worship a certain faction (and it won't give away his role), he or she should come forward. (Right now, I'd guess that it wouldn't be such a great idea to worship the Old Ones.)

I don't wanna be accused of rolefishing, but I'll admit to it now so that maybe I won't be accused of it.

I thought a bit before asking that first question, but I decided that knowing whether DTMaster and Ortolan were recruited by specific players (they don't even have to reveal who) or factions or were just randomly assigned to the game tells us nothing about their role and potentially useful information about their alignment. I can definitely see the Mafia having the option of recruiting from the replacements list. And how they react to my question would allow us to read them better, too.

Talking too much about the role of gods in this set-up in general, on the other hand, can definitely give away which players are certain characters or factions, either because they'll betray too much or too little information.

Another see-saw of maybe I said too much, please don't accuse me!


And yet another...

You know what? I know I'm going to be accused of rolefishing for this, but I'd just like to compare ortolan's and DTM's reactions to my question:

Answers to questions that I don't feel you adequately addressed or that you pussyfooted around:

"Who brought you in?"
"Don't rolefish!"

I never asked who (as in, which specific players) brought them in. How is it rolefishing to ask if they were recruited? In hindsight, I'll admit it probably wouldn't have accomplished much, but there was nothing else worth questioning at the time.

Look at the top quote of this post. You may have not asked who, but you definitely asked how they got here, which specifics you want to know the "who, what, when, where, why" of the situation.

It's rolefishing in it's finest fashion.

I really don't think your reasons are fair. I never said anything about not wanting to be accused of rolefishing at the time. I thought it was perfectly safe to discuss if the replacements were recruited but potentially dangerous to talk too much about the role of the gods in this game. It's not as if I have to be either totally open about role/set-up speculation or totally silent. Why can't there be a middle ground? I'm more sympathetic to SpyreX's "cognitive dissonance" accusations.)

But what if it wasn't the mafia? What if it was a town role of some kind? Why would you purposely put them at risk by speculating on this?

[Starbuck]

On Elscouta

I'm fine with him directing worship votes for the early game. However, it comes without saying that he will need to provide more information later on.

I'm a bit concerned about your quick trust of ABR. Why are you comfortable with this?

I'm also concerned by Elscouta's vote not being affected.

On ABR

I'm voting you Iecerint because you just claimed Norse God out of the blue. I think it's pretty anti-town and deserves a vote.

He claimed his worship target, not his role last I saw.

On Faraday

Starbuck's reasons for voting Mina were pretty terribad and awful vague.

Unfortunately, I was working on that post while at work and didn't have time for elaboration, but I elaborated in my last post.

On Tar

I believe his claim. I don't see any pro-scum reasons for him to come out.

On dramonic

@Starbuck: If you don't think you'll be able to keep up with the game you ought to replace, since it doesn't look like the speed will die down and the longer the game the harder to get a replace in :S

I just need the frequency of the tl;dr posts to stop. If I have to scroll multiple times to get through one post, it's too fucking long.

V/LA for Memorial Day Weekend - I'll be in and out, but I don't feel like fielding bullshit because I didn't state a V/LA in case I don't get a chance to be around.

[Elscouta]

On Elscouta

I'm fine with him directing worship votes for the early game. However, it comes without saying that he will need to provide more information later on.

I'm a bit concerned about your quick trust of ABR. Why are you comfortable with this?

I already said I believe it is in the town interest to have the worship votes in the good place. As I am currently in the dark regarding this area, anything that helps the town worshipping the correct gods is something I like.

Also, I liked how ABR formulated his plan, as giving a set of acceptable worships instead of a single group. As I feel likely that scums are either all in one group, or shared among all groups, this plan didn't look like one that scum would have proposed.

Finally, the plan will probably lead to a full claim by ABR in the reasonable future, and he will have to provide a good reason for having pushed his plan. Until that time, i'm ready to let him partially direct worship votes.

I'm also concerned by Elscouta's vote not being affected.

As far as I know, my vote is being affected by Delirium.

--

Now, regarding your latest post, I still dislike the reasons for the Mina bandwagon. I don't see how "asking how someone joined the game" would be something that scum is more likely to do than town. The whole case looks more like a "lynch everyone asking questions" policy than an analysis of motivations behind the question.

[Mighty Orbots]

SpyreX, your Mina read is off. I also disagree with you about Iec.

Nik's Parama thing is META. /ignore

@Mighty Orbots: Did you read my post 331? Why did you ignore it?

Nothing worth responding to?

Yay you caught me getting a warning.

What happens if you break it again? Also:

1. In my Name claim Ass is a swear and it's part of Kickass, so that part is moot.

Is it? I thought you said:

7. Dick. Cunt. Fuck. Cock. I must mention some form of these swears in my PR.

Another thing, I thought:

I have a post restriction to swear like a sailor and

insult people

.

(emphasis mine) Why have the insults stopped?