Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[havingfitz]

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

[havingfitz]

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

You're funny. Do you even read mod-posts?

Apparently as well as iamausername

[havingfitz]

Unvote

LML...what does being one of the more active posters (not me obv) indicate to you? Is it scummy? Townish? Null?

I need to do another read now that we have a few pages to go on. X91 is catching my attention a bit atm. No one is suspicious enough though to get my vote until my re-read.

[havingfitz]

VOTE: dalt54321

for trying to come across so helpless, ex.

"so i really don't know whats going on yet,"

lying about this being his/her first game (http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... 2#p1196368) and making simple errors which IMO are intended to convey a sense of being helpless, i.e.getting the length of the first day wrong (granted it could be bad math) and just highting the name saga in the initial vote despite having used the proper format in previous games (once again...http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... 2#p1196368).

Xite...my comments regarding you catching my attention were more due to the fact you seem to be one of the more active posters and had engaged me directly. My reread did not reveal anything that jumped out att. But I'm watching you.

Aside from the voted suspect...my reread also left me a bit suspicious of Prana. I'll effort to confirm/support those suspicions but for now my vote should be enough.

[havingfitz]

Xite...my comments regarding you catching my attention were more due to the fact you seem to be one of the more active posters and had engaged me directly. My reread did not reveal anything that jumped out att. But I'm watching you.

Aside from the voted suspect...my reread also left me a bit suspicious of Prana. I'll effort to confirm/support those suspicions but for now my vote should be enough.

Okay, so dalt lied. I don't much like that but I'm willing to let him explain himself
Next, so you noticed me because I said you're scummy right? And then proceeded to say you were watching me? So you're pulling slight OMGUS?
Also, your vote is on Dalt, so how should your vote be enough to help confirm/support the suspicions on prana?

Dalt lied. Town has no reason to lie IMO. I agree he should explain himself.
No...does the fact you suspect me preclude me from bringing you up in conversation? So...aren't we all watching everyone? How?
My vote on Dalt has nothing to do with Prana. Two points in the same sentence....think of it as a bonus.

[havingfitz]

1) Dalt lied. Town has no reason to lie IMO. I agree he should explain himself.
2) No...does the fact you suspect me preclude me from bringing you up in conversation? So...aren't we all watching everyone? How?
3) My vote on Dalt has nothing to do with Prana. Two points in the same sentence....think of it as a bonus.

1) Most of the time. I think there was a discussion somewhere in the forums that sometimes a town lie is the best way to win, most of the time no, and in this case almost definitely not, but LaL can be a terribly bad policy.
2) Uhm...

Xite...

my comments regarding you catching my attention were more due to the fact you seem to be one of the more active posters and had engaged me directly

. My reread did not reveal anything that jumped out att. But I'm watching you.

Bolded. You practically admitted to not noticing me until I posted that you were suspicious. And now you're watching me?
3) Fair enough

1) If that's your opinion ok. I see more value to scum lying about being new than about town lying about being new.
2) Uhm...

You're funny. Do you even read mod-posts?

Teehee, you're funny. Do you know much about strategy?

would be the supporting examples of you engaging me directly. Just putting my name down on a list is not engaging me. BTW...did you happen to notice the reread line about not seeing anything suspicious about you? Or the part in my initial post that said you had caught my attention, i.e. does attention = suspicion?

Dalt lied. Town has no reason to lie IMO. I agree he should explain himself.

One thing is the game was 2 years ago so he could possibly have forgotten but then again probably not seeing how he remembered his account name and password, but on page one he claims to have played mafia all the time. Look at page one though, I believe you can find the explanation for only bolding his vote there however I'd like dalt to explain. Are you set on lynching dat already? Do you fully believe he is scum or is this a policy lynch or lynch all liars?

It is not a policy lynch. He is my top suspect at the moment for his faux-newbie play coupled with getting caught in a lie (until a really good explanantion proves otherwise). The combination of the two has him atop my list of suspects and I'm about to add lurking to his list of offenses. I would not rule out someone passing him but it would take some pretty scummy effort on someone else's part.

[havingfitz]

I'm still fine with my dalt54321 vote. Number two on my list atm is Korashk for his RV on CA using the random # generator coupled with the direct question/challenge to CA which he never follows up on despite CA basically ignoring (as far as I can see) the post/question/challenge by Korashk. As if Korashk is trying to justify his RV w/o the typical lame reasons and posting other content which he doesn't really care about.

Also...I may get a chance to post again today, but

I will be v/LA tomorrow through Tuesday evening

.

[havingfitz]

I'm still fine with my dalt54321 vote.

You're still fine with your vote on Dalt, for "lying"? He didn't even lie. If he does miraculously re-appear in this game (sadly replacing out of a game 2-3 posts in to it, appears to be the guy's meta) and finishes the game, this realistically will have been his first mafia game. What really bugs me about this, is that you find your reason for voting Dalt more substantial than this:

Number two on my list atm is Korashk for his RV on CA using the random # generator coupled with the direct question/challenge to CA which he never follows up on despite CA basically ignoring (as far as I can see) the post/question/challenge by Korashk. As if Korashk is trying to justify his RV w/o the typical lame reasons and posting other content which he doesn't really care about.

You have a legitimate reason for your suspicion of Korashk, and he's second place. He's second place to a newbie who "lied" about making two posts in a mafia game that occured two years ago. That doesn't seem right to me.

How did dalt not lie? He said ....

I play mafia all the time, but this is the first on this site, could someone give me a quick rundown of the basics? ive read the wiki and stuff, but i see like you have to vote with colons and stuff.

He has played here before despite stating he hasn't. He commented on the rules for voting...displayed his ability to vote properly in his previous (un-acknowledged) game...and yet can't vote right here. He is just coming off as a poor little lamb lost in the woods to me and I am not buying it. Obviously your interpretation of lying is different than mine.

As for Korashk...I left out the part where in post 25...he complains about how many people have random votes on them and that he is going to "refrain from voting right now" only to vote less than 90 minutes later with the explicitly unbiased random vote of CA. Which adds another RV recipient to the list he just got done complaining about. Plus I find his vote counts too forced an effort at being helpful. dalt54321 or Korashk have my vote locked up at the moment. For now I'll still with the lying little lamb.

As mentioned earlier today...v/LA until Tuesday night. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[havingfitz]

Back from v/LA…catching up a bit from before v/LA ...

Not feeling the Nexus suspicion yet. The only post att that I feel uneasy about … which someone has already pointed out…is [in bold]:

LmL, that's because

my vote's still there to see how you reacted. Also I sort of forgot I hadn't unvoted.

You say it's not OMGUS but to me it still slightly smells of it, so now I'm keeping it where it is and waiting to see your long post.

That’s all iirc though so not enough to lynch IMO.

Post 124 – LML likes the Nexus vote and would support a dalt lynch tomorrow. Not sure I like lining up lynches.

VOTE: dalt54321

for trying to come across so helpless, ex.

"so i really don't know whats going on yet,"

lying about this being his/her first game (http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... 2#p1196368)

Man, I click on this link expecting it to be some innocent newbie game that I've never seen before, and instead I get...

that

game. I feel like I've been goatsed.

In dalt's defence, he posted twice in that game before being replaced, so it doesn't seem particularly unreasonable for him to discount it. Which is not to say that he hasn't been playing up the "I'm so clueless" angle, just that I wouldn't say he has been outright lying in doing so.

A few people are focusing on his number of posts. He said this was the first he’s played on this site. With a join time of 2008, his comment on the days being 28 RL days long, and voting improperly, I was suspicious enough to do a search on him. It did not matter to me how much he had posted. I did not see that he had replaced out as iirc someone mentioned. All that mattered to me was that he had played (i.e. lied in this game) and he knew how to vote properly…as displayed by his previous game and by the fact he alluded to the voting rules in his first post in this game. Now he is lurking as well. Rather than other’s coming to his defense…perhaps he should rather than just giving us this:

i'm here. and really dont know what to think. the days are so long.

Dalt is still suspect, I'll give him a pass on the fact it wasn't a full game he played before as he replaced out. However an activity post and nothing more is always suspect from where I sit. I want to hear Dalt's comments on everything that's gone on, most noteably everything regarding him.

However, by default that means havingfitz shoots up my suspect list. I'll admit to not actively checking the game Dalt was in until it was pointed out, because I honestly didn't think someone would stretch so far as to link to a game someone replaced out of in short order, and while it still supports Dalt knowing how to vote. I think it makes HF look scummy to be trying to portray Dalt as a liar.

How am I trying to portray him as anything? A fact is a fact. People can make excuses for dalt’s post in this game compared to his past but I have stated nothing but the truth. In post 100 you were suspicious of him as well after I made my points on him. So how am I now shooting up your list of suspects?

I would be insulting you greatly if I didn't think that the mod would give me shit for it.

Thanks for sparing me.

the direct question/challenge to CA which he never follows up on despite CA basically ignoring (as far as I can see) the post/question/challenge by Korashk.

1) Huh? Where was this?

He has played here before despite stating he hasn't. He commented on the rules for voting...displayed his ability to vote properly in his previous (un-acknowledged) game...and yet can't vote right here. He is just coming off as a poor little lamb lost in the woods to me and I am not buying it. Obviously your interpretation of lying is different than mine.

2) Utterly rediculous. As someone else pointed out, the other game had minimal involvement from him before he replaced out. How about this explanation? He forgot how to vote since that game he barely participated in. Not everything is an epic scum plot designed to deceive us.

1) In his vote on you he challenged you to prove you were town.
2) How about you let him explain. Nothing is ridiculous about my suspicions towards dalt. What is is the blatant dismissal some people are giving his lie and helpless play.

I'm still fine with my dalt54321 vote. Number two on my list atm is Korashk for his RV on CA using the random # generator coupled with the direct question/challenge to CA which he never follows up on despite CA basically ignoring (as far as I can see) the post/question/challenge by Korashk. As if Korashk is trying to justify his RV w/o the typical lame reasons and posting other content which he doesn't really care about.

Also...I may get a chance to post again today, but I will be v/LA tomorrow through Tuesday evening.

1) Challenge...?

2) Concerning the dalt lying situation why did you ommit the fact that the game was,

1. 2 years ago.
2. he had 2 very small posts.

3) Why?

He is just coming off as a poor little lamb lost in the woods to me and I am not buying it. Obviously your interpretation of lying is different than mine.

4) Oddly enough his "little loss lamb" behavior as you call it is contradicting to his "I play mafia all the time (#10)" and "for not yet knowing that i'm really good at this game. (#36)" statements he made. I don't really know what to think of this.

1) In his vote on CA. See my comment to CA above.
2) Never entered my mind. As neither of your parameters seem relevant to the fact he had lied and displayed the fundamental knowledge of how to vote I don’t think it matters now that you have brought them up..
3) See ^
4) So you’re ok with a lie because it’s old and from a small sample…but you are ok with the apparent contradiction between his playing experience and his play in this game? Ohhhhhhhhh kay.

@CA: I think we're on the same Dalt page. I'm actually feeling like a HF lynch would be almost better than a Dalt lynch. Has HF been on any wagons at all?

In post 124 you were ready to lynch dalt tomorrow. What has changed to make your opinion towards dalt change and what reasons have you liking my lynch more? You’re moving up my list with this type of nonsense. I have had two votes out…a RV and the one on dalt (a wagon of 2). There are others with equal bandwagon activity. What is your point?

He posted two contentless posts in a game two years ago and vanished. For one, he might not even remember he was in that game in the first place with such a limited duration. Also, even if he did remember that game, I could definitely see why he'd lie about it regardless of his alignment. "Hey guys, i played one game here two years ago, then flaked on it extremely early on." is not the best way to make the rest of the players in the game comfortable with your commitment to the game. If you are going to play the mind-reader game and assume that he intentionally lied about the matter, then you might want to take into consideration reasons why he'd lie in the first place.

Rather than make excuses for dalt and ask me to try and consider why dalt would lie…why don’t we let him answer for himself….though several posters have given him enough to build an excuse from. As for not wanting to appear like a flake to your fellow players…it did not seem to bother Laterus when he joined in (Lat ISO 1).

If dalt doesn’t get any traction soon I will switch to Korashk. Llamafluff if a good player who can probably sweet talk out of korashk's bad play…but in terms of D1 suspicions I think that player slot would be a good lynch. I also don’t care for llama’s entry comment regarding a no-lynch on D1. 2 vs 9 might improve odds of hitting scum…but not by much. And by that logic wouldn't 2v8 or 2v7 etc be even better? I’d rather try for scum D1 and if we are not successful…then we can work from the better odds you bring up that a smaller scum to town ratio would give us.

Also...WTF saga? Get in the game. dalt too.

[havingfitz]

I initially took your word at it's face value, I assumed if you'd gone to the trouble to look at Dalt's history you would have done so in depth, I saw no reason to check your reasoning. I've since realized to never do that and to always, always check. Reason being the following:

It's been revealed that Dalt replaced out very quickly, this means he may not remember so much about how things are done here.

It's also been proven that the game was, if I remember it rightly (it's 12:30am, and I'm not going to check), TWO years ago. That's a long time to be remembering something you barely looked at.

Despite evidence pointing this out, you have still decided to pursue Dalt, something I really don't like. Dalt may be somewhat scummy for his disappearing act, especially as he HAS said he plays elsewhere, which means he must enjoy Mafia. But that doesn't change that everything else isn't that scummy, he may have forgotten he had signed up, or just deliberately chosen not to mention that game as he felt we'd react badly. Which is a fair point. (If he was here, I'd let him answer, he's not, so I'm going to have to think of possible reasons that prove you shouldn't just assume someone is lying) Why did he not know how to vote? Perhaps where he plays they don't type vote in bold letters, perhaps they just bold the name of the player they're voting for? You are assuming every site plays the same as this one and they don't.

So basically, your arguments don't hold water, and thus they are invalid, the fact you continue pushing them despite people pointing this out makes you scummy, and look desperate to try and convince people you are right.

My arguments don't hold water? They're %^&! facts. How can they be invalid? Prove a single one of my points wrong. It's amazing to me that people continue to come up with explanations for him to dilute the indisputable facts I have provided. Would I bet the farm he is scum? No. Does his lie and play in this game warrant more suspicion that he is receiving? Hell yes. Unbelievable. And how could he have forgotten he signed up when he obviously didn't have a problem remembering the username and password?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he say that AFTER you did your little check-up on him?

You would be wrong.

1. If you're going by the facts he did lie. Now start looking in shades of grey and try to see if he knew he actually remembered the game. It was two years ago.
2. He voted the way PranaDevil told him too.

1) Seriously? OK...Yes. I am going by the facts. What do you like to use? And no...I see this as cut and dry so I am not interested in shades of gray.
2) Did he read Prana's post? Did he ignore the other 12 votes already cast? Feel free to answer for him.

Notice how the vote is bolded?

Notice how both his votes in his previous game were votes that would have been acceptable in this game? Notice how his

saga

vote was the 13th vote cast in this game? Iirc...all the previous 12 were done correctly. He knew what the proper format was.

4) So you’re ok with a lie because it’s old and from a small sample…but you are ok with the apparent contradiction between his playing experience and his play in this game? Ohhhhhhhhh kay.

Hey, please don't put words in my mouth. If you look at what you quoted I said "I don't really know what to think of this.".

EBWOP....the last piece should have read "but you are

not

ok with the apparent contradiction between his playing experience and his play in this game? "

[havingfitz]

OK...you admit he lied. You don't think he was 100% lying (shaking my head). What % would you assign to his lie and what % of a lie do you find objectionable?

I did not think of the password email reset possibility but whether he uses the same one all the time or had a new one sent to him, that doesn't take away the fact he at least recalled he had an existing account...which negates the comment you made about him forgetting he had signed up. The fact he had an existing account would indicate to most people that they had participated in activities here which goes against what he said in his first post (that lie thing again).

[havingfitz]

@Prana…make all the excuses you want for dalt’s comments. Rationalize his play/comments until you feel comfortable ignoring them completely. I have my suspicions towards him because he lied (which is indisputable) and the inexperienced persona he has projected in this game despite playing mafia “all the time.” That experience doesn’t even get us an opinion from him. Once he eventually gets replaced out perhaps his replacement will make amends.

@Lat…did your last post have a purpose or were you just posting fluff to express the inner poet in you?

As for your comments about me lying….that is complete crap. First…I prefaced my comment about the pre-dalt votes with an iirc so if I missed one…meh, the eleven other votes all get my point across equally well; secondly, whose to say the LML vote you mention was not valid? It contained all the required formatting. So please get serious…unless you plan on making this another of your replace out games. And feel free to take onboard any of my comments to Prana that apply to your defense of dalt.

@iam…I haven’t tried to rationalize his reasons for lying. The fact his lie and play has garnered a good bit of discussion, and he has posted (albeit once) without any explanation since he was called out adds to my suspicion toward him. I see more benefit to his actions if he is scum than if he is town. I do not buy Prana’s continued explanation on dalt’s behalf that he forgot about this site (considering the fact he is here again and is using a 2 yr old username.). Serious question...what non-$%^&* stupid idea would you create on dalt’s behalf that makes his lie/play acceptable?

That said…as Korashfluff is my second option…if CA can actually provide a link or quote to what it is he is talking about that would be helpful.

[havingfitz]

HF, it can be disputed, as I'm not the only one disputing that he's not actually lying.

There is a huge difference between not being sure/being forgetful, and outright lying.

Things aren't set black and white, you are deliberately ignoring the fact there are other potential factors, everyone is pointing this out, and you're sitting there with your fingers in your ears ignoring everything people are saying, convinced you are right.

There's a huge difference between fact and hypothesis (aka making shit up). The fact is...he lied. Only he knows the circumstances. Though if he is scum you have all provided him plenty to work with. I'm not ignoring anything because dalt hasn't given me any reason/s for his posts/actions. Until he (not you, the poet, or anyone else) explains himself he will sit high on my list. Barring of course someone making what I would assess to be even scummier posts/actions.

Questions for you (or whoever):

Did dalt lie? Not looking for rationalization...just a yes or no answer.
Could dalt have completely forgotten the fact he had played on the site before? This would require him not remembering he had an account (which he is using) and a password (which he either remebered or had reset).
If dalt did recall that he had an account and therefore had probably done something on the site before (and what do we do on this site?????)...then what non-lie reason could he have for claiming this as the first time he had played here?

[havingfitz]

That said…as Korashfluff is my second option…if CA can actually provide a link or quote to what it is he is talking about that would be helpful.

Not sure if that would be legal.

Why too lazy to look yourself?

Ahhhh...good point.

No..I thought you had intended to provide a link to a post and had overlooked it.

So...I looked before responding to this post and low and behold!!!!!! Nothin jumps out at me. WTF? And I suspect Korashk and still couldn't see anything to implicate him (more) in this game.

FoS CA

[havingfitz]

@CA….regarding your recent post on Korashk being in another game and my FoS on you. I misread your post and thought you were insinuating he (Korash) had madesome sort of incriminating comment in another game that related to his play in this game. When I did not see anything of the sort it made me suspicious of you for leading others on a goose chase. A reread this morning shows me my error and that you were just calling him out simply for posting period.

Why is replacing out of a game but remaining in others suspicious? If I had to assume alignment based on replacing out…I would say either bored town or mafia resigned to their fate (i.e. under a lot of pressure). Korashk could fall under either of those categories so it is a null tell for me. I know if Llama was lynched and flipped town, you would shoot to the top of my suspicions. Likewise…if Llama did flip scum, I would put you squarely on the town side.

@Llama…what has me atop your list? My suspicions towards the player formerly known as Korashk? My continued suspicions towards dalt?

Regarding dalt…between the ongoing debate with the people making excuses for him I have been spending more time on him than I should. Perhaps a single response/explanation from dalt might have resolved the matter. As I’m tired of defending my dalt suspicions and no one else shares my suspicions of him…and his replacement won’t be expected to answer for him (especially considering PD has already taken care of that) my efforts on him are apparently in vain…I’ll

Unvote

.

That brings me to suspect 1a. Llamafluff. Primarily for Korashk’s play. In the two post’s of content Llama has provided…the only things I have issue with are: the no-lynch comment and the subtle ad-hominem attack on me insinuating I am not playing well this game…which I read as people shouldn’t put any merit what I am saying (which coincidentally has been the case re: dalt).

Vote: Llamafluff

BTW Llama…do you play on this sight under any other names?

[havingfitz]

@Nexus (post 261)…I’m not angry. This is a game
I still think dalt is scum (or worthless town) but apparently we’ll have to see how his replacement performs to garner any support.

I don't like the way fitz is still kinda focussed on dalt, and won't admit he's wrong.

Do you think people who flip flop are town? As for admitting I’m wrong…screw that. I don’t think I am. Even if the dalt position does turn out to be town I still think he lied. I still think he came across as tooooooo new/naïve (despite claims of mafia experience) and his lone post after my case was brought up (and several posts from others) came up was pathetic.

Why are you only mentioning Prana coming to Dalt's defense? Multiple people tried to explain Dalt's actions.

I know 3-4 people have been against my case on dalt but IMO Prana has gone above and beyond IMO to fabricate excuses on dalt’s behalf despite having no clue of the real reasons.

@Leech…Your post 272 was total crap. The portion regarding to my moving off my dalt vote is ridiculous. iamausername beat me to the reasons why. Then there is this:

You just said it's "bad play" and "in terms of D1 suspicions" which has absolutely no substance at all. You just gave up a case you appeared to believe in for one that you haven't even stated an actual reason for. You have your two weak reasons for Llama, which even you claim are lesser than an unstated reason that you apparently can't specify and only reference indirectly.

Sorry I didn’t spoon feed you. There a thingy on the bottom of the screen that allows you to sort on specific players. If you look at my ISO 6-8 posts they state and elaborate on my reasons for suspecting Korashk/Llamafluff. All while in the middle of trying to get my dalt case supported. These remain the only reasons atm for my suspicions towards Llamafluff so if you want more…just reread them repeatedly.

Though HF is quickly climbing up the suspicious ladder with his flip-flop wagon just because people didn't agree with a case he clearly believed in.

Thanks for the warning. Can you define a flip flop wagon and how it pertains to me (as opposed to anyone else in the game who has moved their votes? And as mentioned above…I still support a dalt lynch but I’m not going to keep my vote essentially out of play when there are other scum to catch.

@Llamafluff….I have never played in a mountainous game nor gone into a game from the start aware there were only two scum. The no-lynch logic appears to make sense…it’s just a foreign concept to me to do one early in the game.

While I take a break from my dalt wagon I’ll look to see who else deserves my attention. Speaking of others...

what's the deal with dalt and saga mod?

[havingfitz]

@LML...your post sucks.

Was dalt confused or was he tricking us? (Insert your answer on his behalf since he can't/won't respond).
If there is a policy lynch I support...it's lynch all liars. Is there a policy lynch you support? (i.e. Lynch all policy lynchers?)
BTW..I was occupied when the whole nexus thiing happened and at least he hung around to explain it. I'm sure Leech or Prana could elaborate for him on it.
I have never even heard of mountainous games or knew they meant something with respect to the type of game set up. I just thought it was the mod's name for the game. How is that inexcusable? Pushing a stupid reason for something to be inexcusable is inexcusable IMO.
What is your point with this - "Because it's the biggest bandwagon at the time." statement? I didn't switch to Llama because of how big his wagon was...I was suspicious of his role from early in the game. Lots of weak sh;t LML. Not well done.

@Xite...how am I looking scummier by the day?

And despite me looking scummier by the day...LML is looking scummy for voting me? W-w-what? That makes even my head spin and it's bad for me no matter how I look at it.

[havingfitz]

I didn't like how havingfitz played along with iamausername's claim thingy early in the game.

Why?

I like the posts by Leech and Loud Mouth Lee.

What do you like about them?

havingfitz voted for me.

I voted for dalt. What do you think of his play? What is you mafia experience?

unvote, vote: havingfitz

OMGUS

Aside from me....once you have finished catching up, what other player or two are you suspicious of?

[havingfitz]

1) he didn't directly deny knowing the roles. In one case he is flippant, and in the other he denies know what "mountainous" is rather than simply stating that he didn't know the roles in this game.

2) in your experience, don't liars generally prefer saying half-truths or talking evasions like flippancy over stating obvert lies?

3) iamausername's post asking for a massclaim was direct enough in specifying this specific setup that I looked at the mod's first post again to make sure that I didn't miss anything. If h.fitz as town thought that this was a normal closed game in little italy then as town shouldn't he have been curious about why iamausername thought this game was different? It seems to me that h.fitz was a scum typing out what he thought would look like a townie post without really thinking like a townie.

1) At the point it became obvious to me that the set up didn't include any power roles (i.e. Xite's post towards me) I was still now aware that the name of the game (Mountainous) was any indication of the set up. And as for stating that I didn't know the game set up when I voted iamausername...wasn't that obvious?

2) Are you accusing me of lying? Have I provided any half-truths?

3) How did iam's post specify the set up? By asking for a massclaim it was in line with what my experience with game set ups is...i.e. that there are always PRs. Which is why I found iam's post suspicious.

[havingfitz]

I didn't like how havingfitz played along with iamausername's claim thingy early in the game.

Why?

seems insincere to me

So you don’t believe my explanation. “Seems” seems a bit gut. Gut is ok but no way to back it up.

I like the posts by Leech and Loud Mouth Lee.

What do you like about them?

seems sincere to me

Vague. More gut.

havingfitz voted for me.

I voted for dalt. What do you think of his play? What is you mafia experience?

he seems dumb. i've played beofre online, i've read games here.

Personal attack on dalt noted…have you played on this site before under any other names?

unvote, vote: havingfitz

OMGUS

remind me, why was LAL enforcement a reason to try to lynch dalt but not a reason to lynch Nexus? Was it because your scum buddy was voting for Nexus and you didn't want to be on the same wagon?

I wasn’t using LAL as the lone reason for voting dalt. I also thought his game naivety was a bit overt and my suspicions were compounded by the fact dalt bailed on the game and failed to acknowledge a single point against him when he did post after accusations were made towards him. I commented on what I believe is the line Nexus is accused of lying in. He gave his explanation…something dalt never did…and I did not think that lone comment was enough to vote him. Is that why other’s have their votes on him? Because they think he lied? Do you think he did despite his explanation?

Aside from me....once you have finished catching up, what other player or two are you suspicious of?

a certain person that has said that you were scummy more than a couple times without voting for you.

Vague again. Why do you feel the need not provide clear answers?

calling scumteam of "Xite91 + havingfitz"

Me for being insincere and Xite for defending me and (I assume) voting you?

1) obvious? no. scummy to my eyes.

2)yes. i am accusing you of being scum, and lying about not knowing the set-up. To me you post replying to iamausername seems to be written with the voice of a scum player impersonating town, playing along by pretending to not know the setup but to still try to stop the gambit by accusing the gambit author of being a rolefisher.

3)

It's not usually done, I know, but

I have reason to believe we should massclaim immediately in this particular game.

I'm really hoping I don't have to explain why.

bolded for duh

1) That seemingly insincere scummy gut feel again. Good solid reasoning so far tw (j/k).
2) You don’t believe my explanation for my knowledge of the game set up and of mountainous games. You obviously have the same telepathic skill that others have displayed with dalt.
3) "This particular game" to me indicates this particular

game

. Not this particular

set up

. And there is no need to be an ass about it…which combined with calling me a liar and your predecessor dumb…comes across as very hypocritical after your offense at Xite calling you an idiot.

paging h.litz

remind me, why was LAL enforcement a reason to try to lynch dalt but not a reason to lynch Nexus? Was it because your scum buddy was voting for Nexus and you didn't want to be on the same wagon?

did you miss this?

paging t.windy
I am not online continuously. Did you have any comment on your OMGUS vote on me or what comes across as OMGUS accusations towards Xite?

I was calling you scummy for jumping onto

the guy with the most suspicion

using a null tell. That

is

scummy

When did I become the guy with the most suspicion? Did you notice the three other equally exciting wagons to choose from? Four if you include the one you just jumped off. And you still haven’t given your reasoning for me moving up your list.

[havingfitz]

Catching up from weekend with family. Will post once finished.

[havingfitz]

unvote, vote: PranaDevil

Too funny. tw votes me for my page one post/s and suspicions towards dalt, Xite for citing common sense re: your case on me, then Prana (your great defender) for.....his page one post/s?

I think it's funny the people who did not support my suspicions towards dalt who are now getting hammered by his replacement and beginning to finally suspect that player slot.

To those getting suspicious of tw...does that change the way you view dalt's play?

Prana is coming off a bit suspicious under the pressure. Very defensive and I like the way he lays the groundwork for a defensive vote on tw with his "Note" in post 354 regarding his suspicions of dalt. Too funny.

Lat's line in post 356 to tw about there being more to the game than two pages (which I would argue to tw there is more than one page) was spot on and beat me to posting a similar sentiment.

LML case on me is crap and I'm not caring for his game iirc. I need to look at him closer. My suspicions for scum right now are focused on tw, llama, LML, and CA or Prana (though definitely not a CA-llama combo or a prana-tw combo).

[havingfitz]

TW's play is really crap. I had a long post ready to go and was going to vote her...but her wagon is getting full way too fast.

I'm about to hit the hay and I think given her posts over the last few minutes...a night to let things cool down would be good (at least for me). If she is still around tomorrow I'll consider voting her but I need to think about it.

LML is coming across very scummy IMO though for his weak ass case on me and setting up a wagon for me tomorrow regardless of how tw flips.

[havingfitz]

Work has got in the way of mafia this afternoon.

Will try to post follow-on from last evening's goodnight post asap.

[havingfitz]

HF is also scummy to me still. If only because he was pushing Dalt heavily despite him not being here. It feels like he was hoping for an easy lynch and got stuck arguing it when nobody felt it was the way to go.

Actually I've always said just because Dalt was a noob it didn't mean he wasn't scum. Wendy's play just increases the possibility for that slot, as I can't see two people in that slot making a right hash job of things.

Nice…condemn me for my suspicions towards dalt while maintaining your suspicion on that slot…followed shortly thereafter with your tw vote. I’m still not convinced you are scum but your hypocrisy regarding the dalt slot and continued suspicions towards me…when you yourself are now voting dalt/tw is annoying as he\\. Still not in my top two however.

1) Or it's likely that you were bussing Dalt so you could coast the rest of the game, seeings how you pushed so hard on him.

1) Another LML-esque assessment. I’m either scum bussing scum dalt/tw or scum focused on the noob town. There’s no town option in there? Is it wrong to push hard on someone you think is scum?

LML case on me is crap and I'm not caring for his game iirc. I need to look at him closer. My suspicions for scum right now are focused on tw, llama, LML, and CA or Prana (though definitely not a CA-llama combo or a prana-tw combo).

If this doesn't scream OMGUS, I don't know what is. I made my case against you. I made my points, and if you don't like them, I don't understand why that's scummy. I'm absolutely not the only one who's suspicious of you. In other words, suck it up and deal with it.

To those getting suspicious of tw...does that change the way you view dalt's play?

No! Jesus christ, he made 3 posts, none of them had any merit at all. Honestly, regardless of how TW flips if he/she is lynched, I still hate the way you played it. It screams scum to me. The fact that you're STILL bringing up Dalt's play makes it seem ever more like a bussing situation, and how you're trying to gain sentiment by a Dalt/TW lynch.

TW has flip-flopped his/herself. And it truns out (Metagame/WIFOM moment) that instantly, TW was happy with me, and the second that I started attacking HF, Her suspicions on me elevated.

As of right now, I'm comfortable with an

Unvote

,

Vote: Tomorrow Wendy

, but trust me, HF, I'm pretty sure you're scum.

You making crap cases on others does not preclude them from suspecting you for pushing crap cases. Wouldn’t you like it if it did? And now we have another major hypocrite slamming me for how I was so suspicious of dalt….am trying to gain sentiment for a dalt/tw wagon (how so?)..and then you put your vote down on tw. Unbelievable. Also…for the point in bold above…where did tw raise suspicions towards you? In her/his PBPA comments towards you? Ridiculous. tw makes a valid scumtell assessment for one of your posts. You are making more shit up to pave the way for you putting your vote on the hot wagon.

LML is coming across very scummy IMO though for his weak ass case on me and setting up a wagon for me tomorrow regardless of how tw flips.

Considering you specified that you were unsure of whether or not TW would be around tomorrow (meaning you believe she may be lynched) how is this statement anything other than what you are persecuting him for?

@Leech…My reasons weren’t any different but the self vote and the no lynch vote along with the fast wagon build up in preview while I was preparing to post made me more and more uncertain of dalt/tw’s alignment hence my desire to hold off. It may come across as fence sitting but the flurry of activity has provided more info (both from tw and the people piling on her/his wagon) was reason IMO to mull things over a bit longer. As for whether tw was still around the next morning…that was just stating the facts. I wouldn’t be able to help it if 7 others voted tw…but I wasn’t about to until I gave it more thought.
As for your quote above…I don’t see your point.

I voted for dalt. What do you think of his play? What is you mafia experience?

Why does TW's mafia experience matter, even a little bit? This is an obvious play to discredit another poster.

It would allow me to view their play as either someone experienced or new. Iirc, I also asked tw if they played under another name….which would have opened up the possibility to meta. Your accusation is baseless and another example of you concocting grounds for suspicion. Another example being your 3rd vote on a bandwagon in a mountainous game. HTH is that a scumtell? #3 out of 7 is scum?

With that being said, HF's reaction was one of "I have a power role." That's MY opinion.

What does this even mean? So you think I was scum that didn’t know the set up and was setting the groundwork for a later PR claim? Could you explain this opinion?

To those getting suspicious of tw...does that change the way you view dalt's play?

I did not agree with your case on dalt either, and no, wendy does not change the way that I view dalts play. I'm sure you probably said it before somewhere, but assuming it is true that dalt was lying, (since that seems to be what the debate around him focused entirely on) why/how exactly is dalt scummy? (I expect an answer to this that is more than some version of LAL.)

I maintain all my suspicion towards dalt…and it has never been solely focused on his cut and dry lie. It is based on the entirety of his posts…up through his last one where he avoided explanation.

That said, I hate self votes but they are kind of null IMO ass I have seen both town and scum do it. The fact tw is not as new a player as we might think however leads me to think the self vote is more likely coming from scum as I don’t think an experienced player would do so as town. I.e. I think a self vote from town is more likely to come from a newer player. I’m less confident tw is scum then I was 48 hours ago but I still can’t get past dalt’s play + tw/Adel’s play.

VOTE: tomorrow wendy

[havingfitz]

@fitz:

I maintain all my suspicion towards dalt…and it has never been solely focused on his cut and dry lie. It is based on the entirety of his posts…up through his last one where he avoided explanation.

Prehaps I didn't word it too clearly. It seemed as if the majority of the discussion that people had with you was what had been focused only on how vaild dalt's lie was. My question is that (forgetting about the discussion on whether its black and white or shades of grey), in your view, how is dalt's lie scummy?

@noone but myself really: I find it interesting that both Xite and wendy are linking fitz to each other. Im not sure what to make of it right now, but I'll have to look back at a couple things when I feel this becomes relevant.

Generally speaking I find lying to be scummy. dalt's lie was low on the scale of lies in comparison with some I've seen...outted fakeclaims come to mind. As I've stated though...I was not taking dalt's lie into consideration by itself. I thought he came across as pretending to be naive and when he failed to respond to accusations in his last post...that only strengthened my suspicions of him. And tw/Adel has not been an improvement as shown by the votes s/he has since garnered. On that note...as I type this...it strikes me funny that dalt's replacement also lied in a way by portraying themself as a less experienced player while ignoring queries (by me) as to their experience and whether they were an alt.

Also...I had noticed the common denominator in Xite and tw's scum teams and was trying to decypher it but got tangled up in a lot of WIFOM. Suffice to say...I think one of them is certain to be scum but I think it would be arrogant/foolish to assume they both were. I'm leaning towards tw.

@noone but myself really: I find it interesting that both Xite and wendy are linking fitz to each other. Im not sure what to make of it right now, but I'll have to look back at a couple things when I feel this becomes relevant.

don't know what to make of it? Lynch h.fitz!

tw...why don't you present a case on me that is not based on OMGUS...or if it is based on that...admit it for what it is. All you're doing is cheerleading. No posting of any value. Additonally...

"If it could be useful after having two flips, wouldn't it be better to lynch today so that it could be useful tomorrow rather than waiting an extra day and having an extra townie dead before it becomes useful?"
-- if we do that then no-lynch becomes optimal on day 2, and informed scumhunting still doesn't begin until day 3.

How so...either way we still end up at D2 with 3 flips behind us? A lynch today coupled with tonight's NK will be the two flips you mention. Additionally...I have the same vote spreadsheet in work and will be happy to share insights into it based on your flip. No need keeping you around to share And agreed...the more flips you have to go from the clearer things become.

@tw/Adel....do you make your vote spreadsheets for all your games on this site?

Yeah, sorry. I'm working on a huge-ass game summary post, it'll be done some time today. But in brief, my opinion is that everybody is barking up the wrong tree and ignoring the scum who is holding up a big neon sign with an arrow pointing at himself saying "I AM SCUM".

VOTE: ConfidAnon

As far as the popular candidates go,

I think I support a fitz lynch over Xite, and Xite over wendy

, I'll tell you for sure later. But really I can't fathom any reason why we would want to lynch anyone besides ConfidAnon today.

IAM...you've had your vote on Lat for quite sometime all while voicing suspicions towards CA. And for the most part...you have been a voice of reason FMPOV re: my suspcions towards dalt and my reaction to you massclaim suggestion. Now you unvote Lat without comment and put it on CA with a preference of my lynch over the two current frontrunners (and popular choices as you put it). I'm not high on Lat or CA ATM but I would still be interested in your reason for switching and putting in a plug for my lynch. Over both tw and Xite......that hurts.

[havingfitz]

PS...where did Nexus go? No post in this game since last Thursday even though he was logged onto the site as recently as yesterday.

[havingfitz]

Fitz saying "I want to vote her but won't" is suspicious-if you're town, you've got nothing to worry about if you vote to lynch her (Post 378, 10.56pm, 16/8). And then, two days later, 30 posts later, you go ahead and vote for her. I don't really see the point in you being like "yeah, no gonna vote..." then "oh, the situation's basically the same, but I don't mind voting now." Don't like it.

I never said any of the things you have in quotations for me above. That's a pretty big misrepresentation IMO. WTF? I said I was about to post her and decided to hold off as her wagon was growing too fast along with her erratic actions in the short time I was putting my post together. It was late and I did not feel like waiting for the dust to settle. And how do I have nothing to worry about if I'm town...I got something to worry about if I have a momentary seed of doubt and don't want a mislynch. And why the time stamp on my first post but not the one you say is two days later when it was basically the same posting window, just a day later (25.5 hrs). And how is that or the number of other posts between suspicious?


BTW...it wasn't clear in your post but the section below could easily be attributed to me when it's actually from tw.

Post #415: Suddenly I'm next on your list, despite being v/la and not actually having any interaction with you? I'm quite confused, but whatever. AND THEN you say gut. Urgh.

Also, two flips, then you're useful? ......

---

I have suspicions on Fitz and Wendy. Wendy is highest on my list, though. Her two flips then useful thing, plus "gut" is really grating on me.

I'm going to learn from my last mistake, and

unvote

because currently llamafluff is third on my list. I'm not going to vote wendy yet because I want her to explain herself, and if someone decides to hammer before she gets a chance, I'll feel quite bad. Even if she flips scum. but,

FoS:tomorrow wendy

.

So you unvote and drop llama to third (for having leveled off I assume), move Wendy up to the top of your list (where dalt was earlier in the game...the same dalt you are suspicious of me for suspecting so adamently). Who is second? Me?

And how is you FoSing Wendy and saying you'll wait to vote her until she's had a chance to explain herself any different from the criticism you put on me in your first quote in this post? Ridiculous. And then you'll feel sorry for her if she get's hammered even if she were to flip scum? I'm finding it harder and harder to believe there are only two scum in this game. <head shake>

[havingfitz]

And tw's last post confirms my vote on her (or him). If you are are town Adel you could have done a much better job in this game IMO.

[havingfitz]

And tw's last post confirms my vote on her (or him). If you are are town Adel you could have done a much better job in this game IMO.

and if I were scum?

Town wouldn't mind your play in this game nearly as much.

[havingfitz]

Posted again for tw as s/he has failed to respond:

@noone but myself really: I find it interesting that both Xite and wendy are linking fitz to each other. Im not sure what to make of it right now, but I'll have to look back at a couple things when I feel this becomes relevant.

don't know what to make of it? Lynch h.fitz!

tw...why don't you present a case on me that is not based on OMGUS...or if it is based on that...admit it for what it is. All you're doing is cheerleading. No posting of any value. Additonally...

"If it could be useful after having two flips, wouldn't it be better to lynch today so that it could be useful tomorrow rather than waiting an extra day and having an extra townie dead before it becomes useful?"
-- if we do that then no-lynch becomes optimal on day 2, and informed scumhunting still doesn't begin until day 3.

How so...either way we still end up at D2 with 3 flips behind us? A lynch today coupled with tonight's NK will be the two flips you mention. Additionally...I have the same vote spreadsheet in work and will be happy to share insights into it based on your flip. No need keeping you around to share And agreed...the more flips you have to go from the clearer things become.

@tw/Adel....do you make your vote spreadsheets for all your games on this site?

---

@Xite...so you suspect me because I have been bussing dalt/tw/Adel. Why in a 2 scum game would meScum bus my lone partner daltScum so hard all day when dalt was not getting any attention (for the most part) from anyone else in the game? I could see bussing someone who was scummy from the get go and garnering the suspcions of others. But why go out of my way to initiate and sustain a case on a partner? When it would have been just as easy to go with the flow on the CA wagon or hop on to a healthy Nexus wagon a bit later once no one agreed with me? Instead I change over to a Korashk wagon upon whom I had named as my #2 suspect (with reasons) before anyone else (other than a ninja'd vote by 5 minutes from CA) had even voted for him?

tl:dr -

anyone accusing me of bussing a lone partner in a two player game...and maintaining that opinion of guilt with their replacement when there have been frequent options to switch elsewhere ...fmpov is sadly mistaken or scum.

[havingfitz]

As far as the popular candidates go,

I think I support a fitz lynch over Xite, and Xite over wendy

, I'll tell you for sure later. But really I can't fathom any reason why we would want to lynch anyone besides ConfidAnon today.

IAM...you've had your vote on Lat for quite sometime all while voicing suspicions towards CA. And for the most part...you have been a voice of reason FMPOV re: my suspcions towards dalt and my reaction to you massclaim suggestion. Now you unvote Lat without comment and put it on CA with a preference of my lynch over the two current frontrunners (and popular choices as you put it). I'm not high on Lat or CA ATM but I would still be interested in your reason for switching and putting in a plug for my lynch. Over both tw and Xite......that hurts.

^

Also...Confidanon is not in my top 3 or 4 suspects and I'm not willing to swap to him att with so many, IMO, scummier options. And speaking of scummier options...tw's nolynch accusation on me is ridiculous.

Rather than hopping from the smallest wagon (1) to the other smallest wagon (1) going and urging us so much to come over to CA...why don't you pick one of the popular suspects that might actually have a chance at getting lynched today? And perhaps answering my questions to you?

And since I answered your CA question, why don't you tell us why you don't want to vote tw while you are at it. The tw vca spreadsheets just take up space (IIoA) and add no value (at least this early in the game). That on top of tw's blatent misrep on me, failure to answer questions directed at him/her (twice) and his/her crap play to this point in the game (+ dalt's).

[havingfitz]

And since I answered your CA question, why don't you tell us why you don't want to vote tw while you are at it. The tw vca spreadsheets just take up space (IIoA) and add no value (at least this early in the game). That on top of tw's blatent misrep on me, failure to answer questions directed at him/her (twice) and his/her crap play to this point in the game (+ dalt's).

Love how both of you like to attack tomorrow wendy when he posts fluff yet you attack him when he's posting useful information when Xite (and kinda fit) says that it will be useful later. If it is why are you complaining? Looks like both of you saw IIoA was a scum tell and decided to bash anyone who does so no matter what the content is.

Huh? How are any of the graphics tdel has provided been of use? As we get further into the game that sort of analysis will be more and more beneficial...but on D1 it doesn't mean a thing. So the three examples tdel has posted are just taking up space and not providing anything of value.

[havingfitz]

@Xite...so you suspect me because I have been bussing dalt/tw/Adel. Why in a 2 scum game would meScum bus my lone partner daltScum so hard all day when dalt was not getting any attention (for the most part) from anyone else in the game? I could see bussing someone who was scummy from the get go and garnering the suspcions of others. But why go out of my way to initiate and sustain a case on a partner? When it would have been just as easy to go with the flow on the CA wagon or hop on to a healthy Nexus wagon a bit later once no one agreed with me? Instead I change over to a Korashk wagon upon whom I had named as my #2 suspect (with reasons) before anyone else (other than a ninja'd vote by 5 minutes from CA) had even voted for him?

tl:dr -

anyone accusing me of bussing a lone partner in a two player game...and maintaining that opinion of guilt with their replacement when there have been frequent options to switch elsewhere ...fmpov is sadly mistaken or scum.

1) People had expressed suspicion on Korashk far before you made a case on him. Just because they hadn't voted didn't mean they weren't getting there.
2) You would have done it to do exactly what you're doing now, WIFOM
3) I wouldn't feel this way if you hadn't pushed the way you did on Dalt, then when suspicion on Wendy came about went asked questions that FMPOV was you saying "See, now you're suspicious of that slot"

1) The fact is, other than my suspicions raised in parallel with CA’s vote on him..(and dalt’s random vote which I overlooked) Korashk had only caught the eye of a few people. The same could be said for almost every player in the game.
2) No I would not have. Got meta? Telepathetic? I would not work so hard to get rid of my partner by initiating and propagating a case that no one else had even brought up or supported. Ridiculous assertion of yours and anyone else who thinks it.
3) Not sure which instance you are referring to…but I did/do think dalt’s slot is scum and once people started suspecting that slot (because of tdel) it sdid come across as ironic to me and in hindsight…supportive of my earlier dalt suspicions. No denial from me on those points.

You mentioned you were an expert at the WIFOM game. You also appear to be an expert at the hyperbole game:

I think that Fitz has been bussing Dalt and now wendy (

look at how convinced he is that they're scum, then he gets angry when no one listens

, so on and so forth, he knows they're scum and feels like he can coast off of that when they flip "See guys, now you know I'm town because I was the one that pushed for their lynch!" I've seen it done plenty of times)

4)

His violent attack on the easiest player

to attack should say enough?

I look forward to seeing how you exaggerate my anger and violence to even higher levels.

preview edit...I see tdel is throwing in the towel. Kind of a compromise between your earlier self lynch and no lynch votes but without the commitment. Nice.

[havingfitz]

fmpov you have done quite a bit of that with Xite as well. While continuing to ignore more than one coment/question directed at you by me.

P.s a re-read of your post 498 is quite a good laugh. That is the limpest towel I've ever seen thrown in. You don't even commit to anything with it. It's just some throw away whinging.

Why don't you just assert you are town...and say honest injun...so we can believe you and try to find the real scum.

[havingfitz]

So... you don't think hes scum now?

No...I do think s/he is scum. I'll try to limit my sarcasm for you in the future.

[havingfitz]

I'm going to learn from my last mistake, and

unvote

because currently llamafluff is third on my list. I'm not going to vote wendy yet because I want her to explain herself, and if someone decides to hammer before she gets a chance, I'll feel quite bad. Even if she flips scum. but,

FoS:tomorrow wendy

I need to re-read CA's posts, and Xite's, but I'm getting closer to voting you

(referring to tw)

.

@Nexus - Is CA or Xite a better lynch and why?

Pass. I'll iso them later and have a look. Xite's definitely been more anti-town because of his attitude, and so if I'm giving that as a reason to lynch TW, that means I have to use that as a reason against Xite. I'm pretty sure I had some suspicions on CA after how he acted at the start of the game-I'll double check when I get back in this afternoon, and also read other people's cases. I'm also beginning to rethink my stance on tw because I think I'm getting too focussed.

Nexus...how about finishing those reads you keep referring to and making a stance. Deadline is fast approaching.

@tw..reference the Xite meta...more IIoA. WTH good does that info do for us? So he's in other games...is thata scum tell? Are we supposed t meta all his games? Are you just trying to put/keep him in the spotlight? You mention the fact he is in games with CA, Llam, and perhaps Prana. Does the fact none of tem have put a vote done on Xite tell you anything? Worthless crap. Just like your repeated vca graphics. You menton your scummies in your defense....so you have been recognized for good play or opinions in the past. How does that matter in this game? You've played like crap. Deceived us with an alt...use IIoA on more than one occassion and basically outlining your current play in terms of why it would be scummy (ISO 62)...which it has been. Also...you are wheeling and dealing...setting up lynches down the road (Xite now for CA later)...which is uber scummy. Have you even targetted CA since you have replaced in?

@all--TW's play has been crap this entire game and now s/he is in scramble mode to save their ass. I'm not interested in a CA lynch today based on higher suspects and the only way I would move to Xite would be to avoid a no-lynch. Which from what all the mafia theorists we have in this game have put forth...wouldn't be the worst thing to do in this game set up.

tl:dr

---> TW=scum

[havingfitz]

@ fitz:

and the only way I would move to Xite

would be to avoid a no-lynch.

Can you explain this statement? And more specifically explain it in reference to the underlined part?

Right now I do not suspect anyone more than I do tw. The only way I would move off that would be for my #2 Llamafluff (whose suspicions have waned a bit with his out of sight out of mind play over the last several days) and to possibly avoid a no-lynch...which I am still not sure I would want today but as proponents of it have made decent points regarding a no-lynch...it apparently would no be the worst thing to have happen. If it came down to an Xite hammer or a no-lynch...I would consider moving to an Xite lynch. (But I would have to think it over more before deciding).

In summary...TW Yes!, CA not today, No-Lynch & Xite in a dead heat.

P.S. Edit...another reading failure on my part...just realized the only way there would be a no-lynch is if people voted for one so disregard my avoid no lynch point completely (unless a no-lynch wagon suddenly builds up).

Who would your choice be if you had to choose someone that there was at least another couple players that you could get to support the lynch?

CA and h.fitz

General Statements:

Has there been anyone else that has expressed any potential support of a CA lynch besides those voting him and myself? I dont want to end up rereading 5 or so pages again just to find out that the answer is no.

yes. I think that there may be as many as 6 votes for CA, and the first wagon to 6 wins at deadline. Are you thinking about advocating for a last minute switch from Xite to CA?

What happened to your suspicions towards me and Xite? CA has overtaken Xite now? Have you even presented a case on CA?

Up until post 517, there have been at most only 3 votes on CA at any given time and for the entire game, only 3 people have had votes on him so far (Llama, Iam, and Prana). He has had 6 votes total on him in this game...but I'm not certain that is how you are portraying the sitation given the 6 votes have not been at the same time, and have come from only three players. I call another misrep on you. tw=scum.

[havingfitz]

It's amazing to me that despite there being only two scum in this game...such incredibly crappy play as tdel had displayed is going to slide through D1. And your crap response to me tdel was weak and did not prove anything. Your continued self lynch antics..replace out request...repeated IIoA...bringing up accolades from the past that have absolutely no merit in this game...is complete rubbish. Xite hasn't played the towniest game but IMO is no where near as scummy as tw. Looking forward to a few flips either way and progressing the scumhunt.

Also...nice lying low you are doing there Llama. You've gone from frontrunner to only one vote (iirc). Well done

[havingfitz]

RL getting in the way a bit. Will try to catch up sometime this evening.

[havingfitz]

Monkey butt.

[havingfitz]

@ fitz:

Is your suspicion of LF based solely on Kor's play? If not, what do you find scummy from LF's play so far?

Yes. His play since he joined the game hasn't been that scummy but I think he is a good player (as I think I mentioned already) who could overcome the perception of some that Korashk was scum. I don't think he is my main target today but I have some catching up to do before I say who that main target is.

Sorry for the lack of posts lately...RL is kicking my arse atm. Not planning to replace out but I definitely won't be an overposter.

[havingfitz]

Caught up reading....not sure if I'm cuaght up in what is going on. D2 activites have me suspcious of IAM and Nexus. Call it gut on both with a little IIoA thrown in. Did IAM ever give a reason for voting Leech despite the fact both the people he had votes on D1 are still alive?

VOTE: iamausername

PS...the Lat Prana exchange was ridiculous. Never have I seen so much wall between two people. Could someone provide a synopsis since I lost focus about halfway through the second wall?

[havingfitz]

Monkey butt

[havingfitz]

Unvote

I need to look over IAM a bit closer to confirm my suspicions.

Until then...

Vote Sotty

because she has been scum everytime I have played with, and lost to, her.

And welcome BTW

[havingfitz]

FoS: HF

, that's a real weak reason to vote at this stage of the game.

Will answer IAM and Nightwolf tomorrow.

Although I had some suspicions towards CA..they were mostly due to his absence from the game and I would not support a lynch on that role ATM. There is no legitimate reason for my vote on Sotty...it is strictly hard feelings (or a token of respect) for her scummy excellence in my previous games with her. Perhaps that was not obvious...but your FoS is even more of a reach.

[havingfitz]

@IAM...why are you not voting (CA)Sotty after pushing so hard for CA's lynch yesterday? Do you not think that player slot is still scum? What about Laterus? Why are you voing Leech?

@Llama...why do you think CA is still scummy and if you do feel that way...why no vote?

In a game with only 2 scum (Yay!...it finally has sunk in!) I find it difficult to believe both scum weren't on one or both of the leading D1 wagons. Which only applies to CA.

UNVOTE: Sotty7

IAM has some good posts but I still suspect him. My top three suspects at the moment are IAM, Llama, and Nexus.

No vote ATM.....

[havingfitz]

@Nexus - This is all you have had to say in over three days?

Fitz?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2469274 <--gut towards Nexus

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2469284 <--~IIoA IMO of Nexus

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2470469 <--gut towards Nexus (particularly when reading your ISOs 45 and 46...which don't come across as inexperienced.)

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2473948 <--IIoA IMO of Nexus

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2461398 <--self confessed IIoA on IAM

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2469005 <--gut on IAM

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2476199 <--IIoA and gut (for vote) on IAM

---

Nightwolf...if there is something you want me to see could you be more specific. Other then the Prana/Lat diatribe I have read everything. Alas...total recall eludes me.

[havingfitz]

Bold in quote by me....

@ fitz:

What I would like you to see is the events of Day 2.

If it was my intent to point out something more specific at this time then I would have done so already.

May I ask what your vote is currently waiting on (as in, what needs to happen either on your end or on someone else's before you choose to place one)?

Perhaps you should give D2 a closer read --> http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2480794

I have a few questions out to people I suspect. Other than my recent light hearted vote on Sotty, and during RVS, I usually only vote when I definitely want someone lynched.

Is there a rush? Should I not wait to get answers to my questions?

[havingfitz]

Perhaps you should give D2 a closer read

No, actually you should. Most of the questions you have out have already been answered D2, hence me suggesting it in the first place. They may not be the type of answers you are looking for, I wouldn't know, but the way you asked them makes it pretty obvious that you haven't noticed the answers in thread already.

I do not see answers within D2 to the questions I ask in post 735. You telling me to go look for the answers to questions not even directed at you is annoying as hell. Since you are so interested in my questions to Llama and IAM...which have not gone answered...why don't you dig them up for me since you know where they are. Otherwise stfu. And since I doubt that will happen...how about answering my questions to you in my last post?

[havingfitz]

@IAM...great...a considerable amount of your D1 efforts were trying to talk people into voting CA (for show). Seems deceitful to me considering you said you expected CA to flip scum.

On the Lat info...thx.
Whether you were voting LML or not...which I did realize...my question still stood and should have said why 'did' you vote Leech. Once again...no good reason. So is Leech scummier IYO than your top D1 targets of Sotty and Lat? I also don't see a lot of suspicions cast towards LML until after he votes for you today. Could you elaborate on why his comment you quoted with your vote on him is the scummiest thing you've ever seen?

As for your IIoA comments...where does it say you can't consider individual posts as IIoA? That you have to take into account the bulk of a players posts to accuse them of IIoA? Even you call the 1st post I quoted for you IIoA. You go by your definition and I'll go by mine. As for the last comment on IIoA...I considered your "

I think probably XT > TC > TT >>> XC > XX.

" comment to be IIoA. Upon a closer read I see what you were saying but it wasn't clear IMO at first read. More I than A.

I'm not sold on Llama. IAM makes enough good points to outweigh what I find suspicious (ATM).

VOTE: Nexusfor my post 740 comments.

[havingfitz]

@Iam...chill out. I have been reading the thread. Nothing wrong with asking for a little clarification. Your post 762 did a good job of that. It was enough to give nexus an excuse for taking his vote off Llama (which would either indicate Nexus wasn't reading the thread or needed clarification of your LmL suspicions as well). In fact...it was a nice enough summary of your LmL suspicions that he may have bumped you out of my top three suspects.

@Lat....what is a slip? I stated after reading his formula closer it was clearer...but I still felt it was more I than A. And is that a quote or are you providing a definition for 'analysis?'

And........ "Since you're saying it's information could that be a possible slip you're saying it's true?," what?
Also...why would you say the deadline is the 6th when it's really the 8th? That kind of misinformation could lead to a quick vote by those not willing to check first.

[havingfitz]

After finally finishing the thread my two biggest scum reads are PD and Fitz,

When it is outted that Fitz didn't explain the whole truth PD still finds dalt a suspect despite it being clear that in post 100 the only reason he

noticed

dalt was because of the Fitz linked game. Despite what some might want to claim, dalt was never active in this game so to keep open the possible lurker lynch of a player like that is just really scummy to me.

What was outted? I gave a link proving my point. I didn’t feel the need to go into specifics that I did not think made a difference. I caught him in a lie. I didn’t need to rationalize why the lie was made. Here is a question for you Sotty….did dalt lie?

He wants it both ways. Dalt and Fitz are scummy, when he is almost as guilty as Fitz when it comes to that game.

Good observation.

Fitz is just all over the place in this game.

Because I am not sure who is scum…as would be the case for everyone (except you) given the D1 wagons.

The dalt suspicion was pretty weak,

I disagree.

His lack of attention in this day phase strikes me as scummy. It's like he wants to look like he is doing something without actually putting the work in.

I have done very little…if I’m giving the impression that I am trying to look active it’s not my attention. RL ATM has me dog paddling just to keep my head above water in the two games I am currently in.

His vote on Iam is extremely weak and is one he gives up in pretty quick fashion.

What is your point? If it was weak would you expect me to keep it there?

Unvote

I need to look over IAM a bit closer to confirm my suspicions.

What exactly are you doing to confirm your suspicions here? You have asked him a few questions but is that it?

I looked him over a bit closer and asked a few questions. What would you do?

If it is, what is your opinion of Iam now?

Did you read my last post?

I'd also like you to explain your nexus vote in more detail. You cite post 740 for your reasons, but I see no reasons there, just a bunch of links.

The reasons are the text next to the links which is supported by the posts the links take you to.

---

Top two suspects – Nexus and (based IAMs case) LmL. Bonus suspect…Llama a close 3rd.

[havingfitz]

Outted = The fact dalt only made two posts and the game was two years old.

The fact dalt only made two posts and the game was two years old = irrelevant.

The reasons are weak and suck. You really can't do better?

I disagree. I would hope so.

[havingfitz]

@ Fitz:

When voting for Nexus you cited post 740 as your reasons. Was that your whole case on him at the time of your vote?

All that I recall atm.

Also, I'm not asking for details, but do you have any clue on how long RL will be "kicking your ass"? (I'm not trying to deny or criticise that it is, just wondering if it is a situation that you can estimate will be done with in approximately X amount of time)

For the rest of the year? I'll finish my two ongoing games but I will probably take some time off from mafia once they are done.

[havingfitz]

Mod...when is the deadline today? Is it the same as before - 1000 hours (GMT-5 hrs)?

[havingfitz]

Last mention of it I've seen was this:

LoudmouthLee has been prodded! Deadline has been extended to Sep 10th at 2300hrs (UTC-5)

(and I looked it up - UTC is the same as GMT)

Thanks. So 2300 Eastern Standard Time. That gives me all day to move my vote if it looks like my least preferred option among the three 3-vote wagons is the frontrunner.

[havingfitz]

I still prefer Nexus over LmL and Llama. I would have moved to LmL to prevent a Llama lynch (for now) but now Llama appears safe. Neither Nexus or LmL doing anything to defend themselves. I'll keep mine on Nexus as I think it's between him and LmL at this point.

[havingfitz]

Sorry folks...I'm in an airport without time to do any catching up. It doesn't look like there is much to cac=tch up on though. Why are we doing a no lynch again when the last one did not do any good? And why do I need to provide the hammer? Did one of the previous no-lyncher's have a change of heart? Regardless....ok.

VOTE: No Lynch

I should be back with decent access tonight or tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

Guess we're no lynching again. Ooo the suspense.

[havingfitz]

Looking over the votes....I find it very interesting/odd that both our D1 and D2 lynch runner-ups were the NKs. I don't think Lat was especially high on anyone's lists so his loss doesn't help a lot...his main suspect was Prana so that would be some nice WIFOM headed Prana's way.

I think both scum were on the Xite lynch...though with both Xite and Tdel flipping town...scum could have been on both wagons as they were assured a mislynch. As I believe I mentioned before...I think Sotty is cleared in that CA was awol at the end of D1 and I'm inclined to think both scum votes were in play.

The D2 lynch (Nexus) and NK (LmL) were both focused on Llama...another huge serving of WIFOM. Fock.

The last three days were one long drwan out no-lynch so not a lot to gain from there. Definitely think whether we get it right or wrong today...the D6 lynch should help clarify alignments (I hope). I'm really torn between all the remaining players (sans Sotty). I had suspicions towards Llama earlier in the game which never went away completely. He was a front runner for the D2 lynch and managed to survive. The player I have the strongest town view of (Sotty despite previous games) is of the mind Llama is scum. All these suspicions from a large portion of the players makes me think we can't all continue to be wrong. If one looks and sounds like scum they must be scum....right?

VOTE: Llamafluff

RL still kicking my arse but this is the only game I'm in at the moment so I will endeavour to stay on top of it.

[havingfitz]

Man...this game is just moving right along.....

I think both scum were on the Xite lynch...though with both Xite and Tdel flipping town...scum could have been on both wagons as they were assured a mislynch. As I believe I mentioned before...I think Sotty is cleared in that CA was awol at the end of D1 and I'm inclined to think both scum votes were in play.

"Scum are all in the group of four im not in"

Huh? Which group of four are you talking about and why do you think that?

The D2 lynch (Nexus) and NK (LmL) were both focused on Llama...another huge serving of WIFOM. Fock.

This glazes over the fact that I did not want Nexus lynched, and only voted for him to get a LmL lynch to happen.

I didn’t glaze over that ‘fact’....I never even considered that ‘fact.’ I’m simply pointing out the fact LmL and Nexus (both now confirmed townies) both suspected you most of D2. Your thoughts towards Nexus are irrelevant. Also...you voted Nexus to get a LmL lynch to happen? huh? I’ll have to go look that one over again...that sounds odd to me.

I had suspicions towards Llama earlier in the game which never went away completely.

Which are? As far as I knew you were only suspicios of my predicessor.

Your predecessor was the same role you are. You can ISO me if you want to find my reasoning. My ISO 14 I think would be a good start. If I had stronger suspicions towards someone else I would have my vote on them. I don’t. You may not like my reasons (towards you or Korashk) but I wouldn’t expect you too considering they come with a vote on you.

He was a front runner for the D2 lynch and managed to survive.

This means....??

It means you have been high on a good number of people’s scum--lists earning votes at one point or another from 8 players...three of whom are dead-confirmed town. If the majority of town are wrong about you being scum...bad on town. But if the remaining townies continues to not lynch you and you do turn out to be scum...even worse considering the suspicions you have garnered.

BTW...

mod, I am v/LA until Sunday evening.

[havingfitz]

Monkey butt.

Things have slowed down a bit. Prana continues to get a good deal of attention from a lot of players. I need to refresh myself on why that is so as off the top of my head I couldn't say. Still happy where my vote is.

[havingfitz]

havingfitz, Iamausername, and PranaDevil have been prodded!

Deadline for D6 is still Oct 2nd at 1100hrs (UTC-5)!

Fock.

Vote Ll....wait....my vote is already there.

As you were.

[havingfitz]

Responses in bold:

vote havingfitz

Yes I know it goes against some stuff I said earlier, but this is where I stand

PD im thinking is actually town at this point
Leech is just stubborn town
Sotty is townish given the entry attacking NW which I dont see scum doing
IAU is a slight town read, I have my doubts on him being town but he leans there
NW is a little bit of a town read, but I dont have any justification for it, which has burned me in a recent offsite game

Also if fitz is scum, Leech and IAU are town. Sotty probably as well.

Few key points on fitz though, note that I will not be able to get into a post war since I have a steel design midterm friday.

Early on fitz latched onto the fact that dalt claimed to be new when he wasnt. This became his talking point for the entire day as apparently its the equivilant of claiming scum since its a lie. The following is a pretty good summation of the case

I haven’t tried to rationalize his reasons for lying. The fact his lie and play has garnered a good bit of discussion, and he has posted (albeit once) without any explanation since he was called out adds to my suspicion toward him.

Eventually he dropped it and voted me for primarily what my predicessor did

Aside this is interesting

I wasn’t using LAL as the lone reason for voting dalt. I also thought his game naivety was a bit overt and my suspicions were compounded by the fact dalt bailed on the game and failed to acknowledge a single point against him when he did post after accusations were made towards him.

What confuses me here is why this means that dalt was town to fitz. He says that dalt not responding to accusations, and falking on the game mean that he was not as scummy. Interested in the logic behind this assertment.

Where do you get that I thought dalt was town? No where in my quote above was there any inference to dalt being town. I moved off of dalt to you because at that point in the game you were my next highest suspect. Iirc I continued to suspect dalt’s slot until it flipped town.

His move to me is one that is as indefensive as possible. He states that it is for korashks play, no lynch talk, and saying I know he isnt playing as good as he can.

What’s your point? You disagree with my reasons. Ok...

First, korashk is something I can never really account for since im not him
Second, fitz came around on no lynch farily fast, so thats out the window

@Llamafluff….I have never played in a mountainous game nor gone into a game from the start aware there were only two scum. The no-lynch logic appears to make sense…it’s just a foreign concept to me to do one early in the game.

Third, ad hominem, which fitz has done at least

Sorry I didn’t spoon feed you. There a thingy on the bottom of the screen that allows you to sort on specific players.... These remain the only reasons atm for my suspicions towards Llamafluff so if you want more…just reread them repeatedly.

a few times

TW's play is really crap.

So fitz moves off someone from lying due to them flaking, onto someone for entirely what their predicessor has done.

Misreprentation. I moved off dalt because I had zero support for my suspicions towards him. As for my move to you...it wasn’t entirely your predecessor...it was primarily your predecessor. Your predecessor was the same role as you are...right? So the time he was in the game and any suspicions he raised are invalid?

This is from now though

I had suspicions towards Llama earlier in the game which never went away completely. He was a front runner for the D2 lynch and managed to survive. The player I have the strongest town view of (Sotty despite previous games) is of the mind Llama is scum. All these suspicions from a large portion of the players makes me think we can't all continue to be wrong. If one looks and sounds like scum they must be scum....right?

Lets break it down, apparently he was suspicious from me early on, although given what I just posted, all of his points are not on me, but my predicessor. Any other points are unexplained, so that point is just lip service. Me being a possible lynch D2, yet not getting lynched, is also a tell. An explaination there would be nice. Finally he says that he is sheeping Sotty, who is voting me based entirely on WIFOM (and ignoring my requests for further explaination).

Not sheeping. I suspected you earlier. The pool of players is getting smaller and previous suspicions towards your player slot, both from me and from others can not continue to be ignored (at least not IMO).

Finally he uses a gamblers fallacy, saying that I must be scum because everyone else who has got lynched has been scum. Of course that would include Sotty (CA wagon day one), PD (always talked about as scum), and a few others at a couple of points.

No one else lynched has been scum. WTH does your statement above mean? It makes absolutely no sense.

So he is saying I am scum, but is not presenting a case once you break it down. His past points are nonexistant, he is following a WIFOM case blindly, and he is adding fallacys to boot.

Ummm...my previous points still exist, I am not following Sotty’s earlier case on you blindly (misrep), and your fallacy statement above makes no sense. I don’t think I’ve said anywhere that you must be scum...you’re just at the top of my list. Other than my ‘ridiculous’ town read on Sotty...all the other players are very close in regards to suspicion to me.

There is more stuff out there between dalt push and now (like him being afraid to join TW wagon due to it going fast), but this is a good start as I have a ASCE meeting I need to be at in 20 minutes followed by a FE review session.

I look forward to the ‘more stuff’. Since I’m not scum though I do not think it will be any better than the misstatements above.

[havingfitz]

I really wish people would not do the bold responses.

As for my move to you...it wasn’t entirely your predecessor...it was primarily your predecessor. Your predecessor was the same role as you are...right? So the time he was in the game and any suspicions he raised are invalid?

Actually, it is entirely my predecessor. Your points against me were being abbrasive (applies to almost everyone at somepoint in each game) and talking about no lynch. You keep refrencing "earlier things" but I really cant find anything, would be nice to hear it again, or for once.

Anyway, what you seem to be saying here is something along the lines of "You have not died, but multiple people have suspected you over the course of the game. This means you are probably scum". That is about the only point against me that you are bringing up. Why cant the suspicion that has been on CA be ignored? The suspicion of PD? You seem to be applying this tell only to me.

@IAU - The reaction from Leech was him getting on me for essentially hammering Xite (the no lynch thing). I made a move that lynched a top scum pick, and he jumped on me for the no lynch statement, seeming to ignore the point that I did think Xite was scum.

I don’t “keep refrencing ‘earlier things’” as you say. I mention “suspicions towards Llama earlier in the game which never went away completely” once (Post 915) when I put my current vote on you to indicate the foundation of my current vote was based on those earlier suspicions (my ISO 14).

Your paraphrase of what I “seem to be saying” is a bit misleading. What I am saying is you have been the prime suspect at one time or another for a majority of the players. IMO that is a fact that should not be ignored. Even if you were actually town....and both scum had been targeting you that would still put you high on the majority of the townies’ suspect lists in the game (6 of 9). I’ve said I don’t have the strongest feeling towards anyone in the game but of the players I am willing to consider (everyone other than Spotty ATM)....you are atop my list. Prana and CA/Sotty haven’t garnered nearly as much suspicion throughout the course of the game as you have so it’s not the same situation. Deal with it.

[havingfitz]

LLama...I am not sheeping anyone. I was suspicious of your role (primariy for Korashk but also for you) earlier in the game. I have returned to you as my top suspect because others I suspected equally or higher have been eliminated and the pool to select scum from has got smaller. With seven players left...five of whom I am willing to consider, you are atop my list...hence the vote.

And since when is it a bad thing to factor in the suspicions of confirmed town? Perhaps when you are scum?

As 8 of 11 non-Llama players have suspected you enough to vote you...you have clearly been scummy (or are you saying all their cases were nonexistent?) and need to go. Why should you go? Because you are either scum that needs lynched or scummyTown that will continue to distract town from the real scum and allow scum to hide behind you.

---

Today's the deadline, not looking good for Prana atm.

[havingfitz]

Just a quick check-in to start the day and pass on my thoughts.

Looking over the voting so far in the game...prior to IAM's NK reveal...I believed the remaining town (not counting myself) in order of certainty were IAM, Leech, Llama, Sotty and Nightwolf. I know this is against my suspicions yesterday but with another actual lynch (as opposed to all the no lynches) we have more info to go off and the fact the lynch was scum is even more telling IMO. I am zoned in on Nightwolf and Sotty as the strongest candidates for the remaining scum. I'll try to support that suspicion in more detail but it may be a few days as I will be away from a computer for the majority of the next three days (I may have some time in the evenings but it will be limited).

tl:dr

; I think the remaining scum is either Nightwolf or Sotty.

[havingfitz]

Sheep much? So your suspicions of me have passed?

[havingfitz]

Monkey butt.

Should be able to post more tomorrow/this weekend.

As mentioned earlier...leaning towards Nightwolf at the moment.

[havingfitz]

So Llama...you've ruled out Leech (for basically the same reason I have) and are leaning against Sotty because of, what I take strictly from your "drunken" post, is WIFOM? You of course rule yourself out. That leaves me and Nightwolf. Your thoughts on Nightwolf are?????

Speaking of Nightwolf.....

hey mod! Where's Nightwolf?

OK...on to my suspicions....looking back at my first post on this day...I can not recall why I was writing off Llama...or at least putting him behind Sotty and Nightwolf. I think they are all a kluge of three suspects for me.

With only two scum in this game I do not believe scum would be as likely to bus their partner. Therefore I am happy to consider Leech town. I would almost feel the same way about Nightwolf based on his suspicions he voiced towards Prana....but they were only voiced. However...as the day was still up in the air and he could have very easily hopped on the Llama bandwagon thereby saving Prana from a lynch...I am inclined to look at Nightwolf as town.

So that leaves me with Llama and Sotty. CA garnered a lot of suspicion early in the game but having not looked back on it...I do not recall the reasons. I was inclined to view Sotty as town based on the fact CA was the only vote on D1 that was not on either xite or tdel. Additionally...I refused to accept the fact that Sotty (who as scum had duped me in our two previous games) could be scum in another game with me. I realize looking back that neither of those reasons is reason enough to discount Sotty and when I look at her and CA’s voting habits...there is nothing that would eliminate them from being scum.

Other than Sotty’s initial vote on PD...she hasn’t been too suspicious of PD (though not everyone has...myself included) and has in fact...done a bit of defending PD.

tl:dr:

I don’t know who the last scum is but I have reassessed my suspects a bit and think that Sotty is a better candidate than Llama and Nightwolf. Soooooooo....

Vote Sotty

[havingfitz]

Crap....that sucks....

At least with my earlier Sotty vote I had the luxury of it not being MYLO or LYLO. Now we move right on to LYLO and my willingness to lynch Sotty is reduced slightly by not having a safety net. Llama or Sotty......expletive.

Right or wrong I'm committed to Leech being town due to his PD offense. I'm still leaning towards Sotty but would like to hear what the others have to say before doing anything rash.

If either of Llama or Sotty turn out to be scum and this game ends in a town loss I am going to be pissed as Sotty has majorly duped me twice now when she was scum and Llama (+ alts) have done so at least that many times.

As for a no lynch....I would be up for that though I would not look forward to the ensuing WIFOM if I made it through the night. Worst case scenario for me it would be me, Llama and Sotty on the next day. Best case scenario...I would get NK'd and not have to stress over it.

[havingfitz]

Sotty and Llama.....would you rank your top two suspects?

[havingfitz]

I don't see what the problem is. Scum knows who the town is but town doesn't know who the scum is. Whoever the NK is...assuming there is one (does there have to be one?)...will be confirmed town and their perspective would be nice. I haven't looked but I'd guess most of us already have made our opinions known. I know I have. Moot point now as the no lynch has occurred.

[havingfitz]

Well....I was zoned in on Sotty yesterday until the modkill. Now with Llama being the nightkill I have a nice heaping pile of WIFOM to work with. I'll reluctantly take a step back from Sotty and put her and Leech on equal ground for now. I will say this regarding the WIFOM that has built up in this game, Leech seems to have made quite the effort to point it out.

So Leech...in your quote on me above, how is stating the obvious indicative or either a town or scum motivation? And what have I not mentioned since what?

I need to do some ISOs. Will post more tomorrow and as I am v/LA from Wednesday-Friday, I may put down a vote tomorrow as well.

[havingfitz]

I will say this regarding the WIFOM that has built up in this game, Leech seems to have made quite the effort to point it out.

I agree. I went to great lengths to look over this game, start to finish, to come to a solid conclusion. Why are you insinuating that's a bad thing? It is LyLo, so if there's ever a time to look at things from all sides, it's right now. Look at just how many dead townies have called the kills by scum, in this game, WIFOM kills. Yes, I'm going to point it out and speculate on it, because it's all we have. I've made quite the effort to understanding the kills, and trying to figure out the true reasons behind them. You're in your own little world if you think that's a bad thing.

What are you accusing me of here? You have posted a lot of analysis and made a lot of speculation about WIFOM...both WIFOM for why things could be in the interests of scum and why they couldn’t be in the interests of scum. Which in itself is WIFOM. You are using it as an excuse for why certain situations are unlikely or likely. I’d give examples of each but I am strapped for time today getting ready for my v/LA the rest of this week to the other side of my little world. Sotty can see for herself if/when she ISOs you.

There is so much WIFOM with the last few NKs that I really have no strong intuition towards either of you...but I am starting to lean towards Leech. You have gone virtually unscathed throughout this entire game and if someone presumably very townie is continuing to last this long...something is not right. But there’s WIFOM again. I have had a town read on Sotty for most of this game until recently..mostly due to PoE. But combined with my town read on you for most of this game...you’re both about even to me. Pardon the rambling...I don’t have the time to edit for reading ease.

So Leech...in your quote on me above, how is stating the obvious indicative or either a town or scum motivation?

It's that you showed no interest, at all in Prana's lynch. By that, I mean you showed no emotions either for or against it. You pretty much ignored it entirely other than that "stating the obvious" comment as you're calling it. You made it a point to use my case against Sotty changing her tune about Prana, but you showed no signs of caring about Prana's flip at all. That's indicative of scum motivation, simply because he was scum and you pretty much ignored the entire bandwagon and lynch of that scum. You not only did this before he was lynched, but after as well.

PD was not near the top of my suspect list prior to her flip (hence not a lot to say about her) and I typically do not comment on people after they have been Lynched or NK’d. Feel free to check it. Did you comment on PD after their scum flip? other than trying to determine links between Prana and the remaining players there is nothing regarding her scum flip that needed to be said. Were you looking for a Hooray? Would you agree some people view post-flip comments to be scummy?

Where did I use your case against Sotty? Did I use some of the same words you did? Did I infringe on intellectual copyrights? What are you talking about?

On that note...

I’m not back online from Wednesday-Saturday

so I don’t envision getting a vote out before then like I thought I might.

I would prefer to see your thoughts before I vote anyway (assuming I get the chance to pick) so my v/LA is probably a good thing.

[havingfitz]

I'm back from my v/LA but only for the day. Tomorrow I will be on vacation for 4 days with limited web access, so I shold be able to check in.

I have not been that suspcious of either of you for most of the game and the suspicions I have had (towards Sotty) were more based on PoE than on anything else. I really haven't focused on Leech prior to today and was happy to consider him town due to the way he pushed the PD lynch. As big a part as WIFOM has played in Leech's game analyses to this point I can envision him bussing PD hard to use it to distance himself from scum.

Equally...I was discounting Sotty for thin reasoning on her (CA) not being around when D1 ended and not having a vote on either of the main two wagons.

So...I don't have a good feel for either of you but the person I suspect more ATM (at the risk of a 3rd consectutive loss to a scumSotty) is Leech.

A few comments on the last few posts:

Sotty...iirc, my D1 spat with PD was regarding my suspicions towards dalt. Why would I have put a vote on PD, because they did not see the dalt situation the same as me? PD wasn't among my top suspects and once I suspect someone (for better or worse) I tend to stay with them.

Another thing that has been eating at me about Fitz is his claims that scum wouldn't bus in a game like this.

tl:dr -

anyone accusing me of bussing a lone partner in a two player game...and maintaining that opinion of guilt with their replacement when there have been frequent options to switch elsewhere ...fmpov is sadly mistaken or scum.

With only two scum in this game I do not believe scum would be as likely to bus their partner. Therefore I am happy to consider Leech town. I would almost feel the same way about Nightwolf based on his suspicions he voiced towards Prana....but they were only voiced. However...as the day was still up in the air and he could have very easily hopped on the Llama bandwagon thereby saving Prana from a lynch...I am inclined to look at Nightwolf as town.

The thing that bugs me the most about this is that is Fitz has been in a game where the scum has bussed their buddy in a two man team.

Trouble at Warren State Mental Hospital

I was scum in this game and after leading a myslynch after replacing in, I bussed my buddy Howard Roark and basically rode the town cred to a scum win. What makes this game even worse was that the town had the chance of having power roles in this game depending on the luck of the draw. As it turned out the scum drew two cops and a doc. (12 player game, yes I got very lucky)

Fitz was a witness to this game and I know he remembers it because that's why he voted me as soon as I replaced into this game.

The experience doesn't match Fitz's reactions and I would like an explanation.

I said I don't think scum are

as likely

...especially in a two person game...to bus their partner. I didn't say it was inconceivable and am now resigned to the fact that it has occurred in this game since both of you have pushed for PD at various points. All I recall about our previous games is that you were scum in both of them and won. The Warren Hosp game was a long time ago and I did not recall it's set up. A quick look at that game doesn't show a lot of effort on your part to bus HR and in fact you did move off his wagon for a time. Leech's push on the PD lynch was way more determined. WIFOM. However...that said, my previously expressed opinion on bussing within a two scum team could be seen as a good reason to keep me around if your name is Leech.

Question...in a two scum game is it more likley that neither scum would ever place a vote on their partner or that there would be at least the occasional bus? PD and I - never voted each other. PD and Leech - no votes on Leech and Leech led the D6 PD lynch. PD and Sotty - PD was on Sotty's player slot most of the game and Sotty had votes on PD for portions of D1 and D2 (and at most those votes made PD wagon 2 so not a lot of risk).

That aside, I am finding Fitz scummier than you for his suspect interactions with PD though day one.

What is scummy about our difference of opinion? Player A (PD) not agreeing with my reasons for voting player B (dalt) is not a reason to vote players A.

Reading over this game, the only way I can make sense out of the kills, is to tread into WIFOM territory. It's the only way, in this game, to determine what situations are likely or unlikely. So, once more, I don't understand how this is a "bad" thing, as your original post on the matter seemed to suggest.

I just see you using it as a crutch to explain everything you are doing.

PD was not near the top of my suspect list prior to her flip

(hence not a lot to say about her) and I typically do not comment on people after they have been Lynched or NK’d. Feel free to check it. Did you comment on PD after their scum flip? other than trying to determine links between Prana and the remaining players there is nothing regarding her scum flip that needed to be said. Were you looking for a Hooray? Would you agree some people view post-flip comments to be scummy?

First, the bold: That's the point I was getting across. PD wasn't a suspect...why? There was this giant conversation that spanned two entire phases. One of them was a no-lynch phase, then the one immediately following Lat's death. You were not involved in it, did not mention it, or have any interest in it. That's my entire point! How can you completely ignore a case being built on a player, and not stop to add insight? Yes, if you didn't have a scum read on him, why didn't you say anything? Earlier in the game you didn't want to read the exchange between Lat and Prana, and then mysteriously when Prana's one of the main suspects of the day, you only make vague statements about him, that have no reflection of your thoughts on him as a player. In fact, I'll quote every time you mentioned Prana after Lat's death:

I don't think Lat was especially high on anyone's lists so his loss doesn't help a lot...his main suspect was Prana so that would be some nice WIFOM headed Prana's way.

You are already brushing off any potential case made against Prana as WIFOM. That's all you say, "he has wifom headed his way" seriously? Why not add your thougths on whether or not you agree with Lat or not? Oh, that's right, you never read the exchange between them...that's convenient.

You may not have noticed but I have not been fully engaged in this game. Giving reasons and debating why I suspect people has taken up my gametime. I did not have time to involve myself in debates on people I did not have strong scum feelings on. Likewise…I was not going to defend anyone unless I had a strong town read on them…which I never had on PD. You on the otherhand have used PD WIFOM quite a lot on this day to support your suspicions. Speaking of PD…you seem to do a fair bit of defending PD D1.

Things have slowed down a bit. Prana continues to get a good deal of attention from a lot of players. I need to refresh myself on why that is so as off the top of my head I couldn't say. Still happy where my vote is.

How interesting is that? You just told me that Prana wasn't near the top of your suspect list so you didn't have much to say about him. Yet, earlier you claim that you're going to refresh yourself on why Prana has the attention he has, but you never follow-through.

I never got around to it. Time and lack of suspicion IMO did not permit it.

On the subject of Prana, you are always intentionally vague.

This is an accusation that can not be defended. Obviously every word I type is intentional. And vague is a matter of opinion. But where have I specifically done something vague regarding PD?

Today's the deadline, not looking good for Prana atm.

Already brought this up in my last post, but I'm reposting it just to show how you spent the entire time mentioning his name, while adding nothing. Obviously if you are his partner, you wouldn't be for his lynch. However, you probably wouldn't want to oppose it either. So, you just mention his name and ignore it completely.

As Prana’s partner why would I stick my neck out to state the obvious? If it was looking like PD was the lynch for that day, why not hop on to try and look better?

You are right, Fitz. Prana wasn't at the top of your scumlist. That's probably because you ignored everything said about him, made intentionally vague comments, and were completely unhelpful one way or the other the entire phase. Actually stating an opinion on the matter would have helped drastically, you decided to spectate though. Town believing scum is town, happens. Town completely ignoring multiple cases on someone as to why they might be scum, though? Not nearly as likely.

As mentioned above comments above regarding my actions towards PD. There is that intentionally vague accusation again. Maybe your confusing or painting my inability to hit scum with being vague. I was focused on my top suspects of which I usually listed my top 2 or 3, and PD wasn’t making my cut.

As far as not mentioning someone after they flip, you took that the wrong way entirely. You did not, in any way, try and link other players to Prana. You didn't look over interactions or try to find scum partner patterns. Scum was lynched, and you moved on. I wasn't asking for a "OMFG! We got scum! We fucking got them!" reaction. When scum dies, the town tends to use that flip as a method of scumhunting. This, you have not done. I believe the entirety of what you said on the matter was "Leech could have lynched Llama instead of Prana, so he's probably not scum." or something to that effect. That was it.

I have looked over PDs interactions with others….mostly on votes by and against him.

[havingfitz]

Just back in from vacation. Looks like the both of you have talked yourselves into me as your prime suspect. Is that correct? Leech is my main suspect...though not by a landslide. It's midnight here and I have to get up early so I will respond to the recent posts tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

I'm here...putting together my thoughts. I had some minor surgery this afternoon and have been a bit unavailable to post. Please wait until I get one last post in before either of you votes. And for whichever of you is town, I am town...so waiting (not that it will change anything) would be better than a guaranteed town loss.

BTW Sotty...I did forget about the open game and any specifics. As I've already mentioned, I just recall that I have lost to you twice when you were scum and I thought you town. I do not recall the specifics of the other game either (except I think you replaced into that one as well).

[havingfitz]

Well...if Sotty is the last scum, well played by her again. And Leech...if Sotty is scum and votes me (or after this post, you) to lose it for town, I owe no one an apology. RL always trumps mafia. Town has had eight days to lynch two scum and if they can't do it in those eight days, no one owes anyone an apology...only congratulations to the winners.

I'm online for the next few hours and will still give my thoughts on why I think Leech is the last scum; however, building a case on Sotty would be a moot point...since if she is the last scum the game is over as soon as she posts next.

Until I put my Leech thoughts down, VOTE: Leech

[havingfitz]

I'll start off with a quick ISO of a known entity...scum Prana. I'm exchanging any comments towards CA with Sotty for consistency since they are the same player role.

ISO 9 - PD votes for Sotty for jumping on Leech for no reason
ISO 10-12, 17, 19, 23, 48, 53 - Continued negative/suspecting comments towards Sotty
ISO 20 - Comment on nothing significant happening lately and noting that Leech has a joke vote out
ISO 28 - After a brief pressue vote on Korashk(Llama), PD puts vote back on Sotty
ISO 33 - Top three suspects are Sotty, Llama, and me
ISO 34 - Comments that Leech needs to post more
ISO 42 - Reaffirms his suspicions towards Sotty and me
ISO 45 - Refers to Leech's comment that RVS is a time when people joke around and places a vote on twendy
ISO 56 - A somewhat defensive post on my behalf

D1 comes to an end with very little mention of Leech, with no exchanges I can see, despite prodding him to post more

ISO 72 - Still thinks Sotty and I are scummy
The Prana-Lat chronicles
No mention of Leech on D2 or the next three days which are all no lynches.

ISO 100 - Immediately comes to Leech's defense after Llama puts a vote on him (Leech)
ISO 101 - Votes Sotty
ISO 102/103 - A brief exchange with Leech which was a bit tame despite part of it involving suspicions from Leech towards PD.

I think it is telling that Prana has very little to say towards Leech during the course of the game except for a few references to comments made by Leech and defends him rather adamently after Llama votes him. After Leech puts a vote on Prana there is not much of an exchange/defense by Prana...however, following Iam's vote on Prana shortly after Leechs Prana vote....Prana makes responses to several of Iam's points.


Next an ISO on Leech. But not now as I see Sotty has voted. Dos this make three in a row Sotty?

[havingfitz]

Why didn't you wait like I asked? Feel free to punch yourself.

[havingfitz]

I wasn't stopping at that ISO. But then perhaps nothing would have changed your mind. If it was set you just saved me the trouble of putting more info together. crap

[havingfitz]

Not that anyone is still reading this thread but apologies for this delayed final post.

Gamethoughts:

I wish I had had a chance to post my case on Leech when I finally had the time. Getting set to hit submit on my Prana ISO only to see Sotty had voted me was very frustrating...especially given she was town. I thought for sure when she voted me without waiting that she was scum. I am now 0-3 in games with Sotty.

Apparently I did not have a strong sense (i.e. no clue) for who was scum in this game until the last day when I only had two to choose from. D8 was the first time I really had a chance to look closely at Leech beyond all the people I had stronger suspicions of earlier in the game. The only thing keeping it from being a stronger feeling towards Leech than it was was the fact I had been so completely duped by Sotty in previous games that I was/am reluctant to ever completely think she is town. I'm not sure how sold Sotty was on me as scum but I would have liked the chance to build my case on Leech. One of the things mentioned would have definitely been the NK on iam who was suspicious of Leech but had pretty much written me off as town. And Leech's prepping the final battleground with all his use of wifom to steer opinions to his benefit.

Anyway, thanks for the fun game. It was the first time I've ever played a game as scum where I'd blatantly tell you all exactly what the scum wouldn't be doing, which was exactly what I was doing the entire time.

I will say this regarding the WIFOM that has built up in this game, Leech seems to have made quite the effort to point it out.

You have posted a lot of analysis and made a lot of speculation about WIFOM...both WIFOM for why things could be in the interests of scum and why they couldn’t be in the interests of scum. Which in itself is WIFOM. You are using it as an excuse for why certain situations are unlikely or likely. I’d give examples of each but I am strapped for time today getting ready for my v/LA the rest of this week to the other side of my little world. Sotty can see for herself if/when she ISOs you.

There is so much WIFOM with the last few NKs that I really have no strong intuition towards either of you...but I am starting to lean towards Leech. You have gone virtually unscathed throughout this entire game and if someone presumably very townie is continuing to last this long...something is not right.

tl:dr,

Agreed it was a fun game despite my poor aim and time constraints. Enjoyed it and appreciate Battousai taking the time to put it together and mod.

Thanks