Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[LoudmouthLee]

I have.

That is an explanation for why your NK speculation is OK, while Llama's is not. Now, what makes Llama's NK speculation worse than when I did it, or when Nexus did it, or when Leech did it?

Can you cite any examples of previous games were you have seen people say they are likely night kills? Can you demonstrate that you have seen this come proportionally more from scum than town?

Why is scumLlama more likely to push for No Lynch in this situation than townLlama?

No, you haven't.

My "NK spec" was myself explaining my reaction to the Xite lynch and the way it went down. As for the citation of previous games, it's absolutely preposterous to think that anyone has the time to sort through the amount of information. I've unvoted you, sir. You're awfully defensive. Seriously.

I really think you haven't been reading, Iam. Check out Llama's reaction to NL compared to his reaction to NL today. Plus, he's singing the praises of Adel in such a way... befriending the dead pro-town is a way to look town when you're scummy.

What is your view on Llama?

[LlamaFluff]

I really think you haven't been reading, Iam. Check out Llama's reaction to NL compared to his reaction to NL today. Plus, he's singing the praises of Adel in such a way... befriending the dead pro-town is a way to look town when you're scummy.

You have a point since I never said that TW was town yesterday

Never seen Adel/TW do this play before, only though I have seen him once breifly before only. Wierd part is I am not too sure he is scum here.

TW is town. Lat, Wolf and IAU are also probably town (in order of decreasing strength of read).

TW is a strong town read, leads votes, and deadline appears to be approaching. CA is still very scummy though, I would be happy with a lynch of Xite or CA.

A few people here are so obviously town it is painful. Will of course vote xite to not have TW get lynched.

Oh.....

[Sotty7]

Reading and all that jazz. Currently only up to page 8 but I hope to get a bulk of the game done today.

If there is anything I need to address right away let me know.

[iamausername]

No, you haven't.

Oh, my mistake. I'm sure you know better than me what I've read.

My "NK spec" was myself explaining my reaction to the Xite lynch and the way it went down.

I am aware that that is how you are attempting to rationalise your hypocrisy. I just don't buy it. I don't think you really believe that Llama's speculation is scummy while yours is A-OK. I think that was just a poor excuse to hop onto the burgeoning Llama wagon.

And the hypocrisy is not the only problem I had with that post; even if you're going to go into denial about the fact that you were actually engaging in NK speculation, other people, including me, the person you were previously voting, have also engaged in the same sort of speculation. So why is it scummier coming from Llama than it was coming from me?

As for the citation of previous games, it's absolutely preposterous to think that anyone has the time to sort through the amount of information. I've unvoted you, sir. You're awfully defensive. Seriously.

There's that word again.

I'm not being defensive. I'm trying to see if you are able to demonstrate that the things you say have any actual basis. I have no concerns for myself, I'm just presenting you with an opportunity to justify your stances.

I really think you haven't been reading, Iam. Check out Llama's reaction to NL compared to his reaction to NL today.

Yesterday Llama was the first person to bring up the subject of a No Lynch. The general consensus among those who didn't give a kneejerk "NO LYNCH IS BAD" was that it should happen later on, Llama didn't press the issue any further. Then Adel came in and gave a pretty reasonable case for why it should actually happen earlier, which appears to have struck a chord with Llama, and he is now arguing that position too.

I have no idea what is supposed to be scummy about any of this.

Plus, he's singing the praises of Adel in such a way... befriending the dead pro-town is a way to look town when you're scummy.

I don't see it as this so much as it is getting frustrated with people continuing to insist that Adel was scummy scum scum scum even after he has died and been revealed as town, which is a feeling I can certainly sympathise with.

I think that trying to discredit the opinions of dead townies by insisting that it is their own fault that they received votes is also a scum tactic.

What is your view on Llama?

I'm pretty sure he's town, because I can't see why scumLlama would push the no lynch today when there is no discernable benefit to scum to do so, and anyone could see that it would attract a bunch of negative attention from the "NO LYNCH IS BAD" kneejerks.

[havingfitz]

Unvote

I need to look over IAM a bit closer to confirm my suspicions.

Until then...

Vote Sotty

because she has been scum everytime I have played with, and lost to, her.

And welcome BTW

[Battousai]

Vote Count:

Llamafluff

-4- Leech, PranaDevil, NightWolf, LoudmouthLee

PranaDevil

-2- Lateralus22, Llamafluff

LoudmouthLee

-1- iamausername

Sotty7

-1- havingfitz

Not Voting:

Sotty7, Nexus

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch (before Sep 8th)!

[Nightwolf]

@ Llama:

Those two quotes were in the part of the thread that you did not read at the time, and therefore they would not have been able to make you think that there was a chance that I would switch over to wendy. Try again?

@ LmL:

Can you define and/or list the criteria involved for someone to be considered "defensive" in your view?

[LoudmouthLee]

FoS: HF

, that's a real weak reason to vote at this stage of the game.

Will answer IAM and Nightwolf tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

FoS: HF

, that's a real weak reason to vote at this stage of the game.

Will answer IAM and Nightwolf tomorrow.

Although I had some suspicions towards CA..they were mostly due to his absence from the game and I would not support a lynch on that role ATM. There is no legitimate reason for my vote on Sotty...it is strictly hard feelings (or a token of respect) for her scummy excellence in my previous games with her. Perhaps that was not obvious...but your FoS is even more of a reach.

[Sotty7]

Unvote

I need to look over IAM a bit closer to confirm my suspicions.

Until then...

Vote Sotty

because she has been scum everytime I have played with, and lost to, her.

And welcome BTW

I love you too Fitz.

Yesterday I got sidetracked and went to the Vikings last preseason game. I have about a third of the read done. I am going to try and power though the rest by the end of day.

[havingfitz]

@IAM...why are you not voting (CA)Sotty after pushing so hard for CA's lynch yesterday? Do you not think that player slot is still scum? What about Laterus? Why are you voing Leech?

@Llama...why do you think CA is still scummy and if you do feel that way...why no vote?

In a game with only 2 scum (Yay!...it finally has sunk in!) I find it difficult to believe both scum weren't on one or both of the leading D1 wagons. Which only applies to CA.

UNVOTE: Sotty7

IAM has some good posts but I still suspect him. My top three suspects at the moment are IAM, Llama, and Nexus.

No vote ATM.....

[Nightwolf]

fitz, you may want to reread Day 2 (skipping over Lat's and Prana's posts).

Anyway,

Nexus

I completely forgot that Nexus was in this game. That is certainly not a good thing, though not necessarily a bad thing either. Anyway, my next task while I wait for something to happen is to look back at my notes on him and his posts to refresh my memory and position on him.

[PranaDevil]

Nightwolf, I agree the me/Lat exchange pretty much goes nowhere, I'd still like to see him start looking elsewhere as he's not done so yet this Day phase.

However, I feel saying to ignore all posts by the two of us is a poor move. For one I feel I made a relatively good case on Llama, and by saying to ignore all posts by me it means Fitz may just skip over that entirely when reading through. I also wonder if other people missed it purely because it was just another long post by me, without seeing who it was focused on.

[Nexus]

Having read PranaDevil's case on Llamafluff, he makes some good points. I still don't buy his reasoning for voting Xite, particularly after being on the CA wagon anyway. I still believe that whilst town, tw's play was a lot scummier/anti town than Xite's, so there's no way I'm going to agree that the Xite wagon was better than the tw wagon. The fact that his vote tipped the scales for the Xite lynch makes me suspicious anyway.

His sudden decision to stop supporting a lynch on CA is very strange. I mean, I want to wait until I get more off of him, but based on the Korashk stuff, and his recent play, I'm strongly suspicious of Llamafluff.

I think the Lat/Prana exchange was town v town, and from what I can tell, a lot of it is just a circular argument. Although, Lateralus does seem really angry that Prana's defending himself, which I don't even know why hes getting so annoyed. Surely Prana defending himself is a good thing, would you rather, if he was town, he rolled over and let you lynch him?

Now fitz. He comes in, votes iamausername, says he's suspicious of me and iam for "gut and IIoA", but he doesn't actually give any examples, but votes instead. Uh. Could you give us some actual reasoning, please?

Fitz?

[Nightwolf]

Prana, I think you misunderstood my post.

I wrote that under the assumption that he already read everything (including that debate), but if you look at fitz's post that prompted me to make the suggestion I did, you may see why I made that specific suggestion.

[havingfitz]

@Nexus - This is all you have had to say in over three days?

Fitz?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2469274 <--gut towards Nexus

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2469284 <--~IIoA IMO of Nexus

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2470469 <--gut towards Nexus (particularly when reading your ISOs 45 and 46...which don't come across as inexperienced.)

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2473948 <--IIoA IMO of Nexus

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2461398 <--self confessed IIoA on IAM

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2469005 <--gut on IAM

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2476199 <--IIoA and gut (for vote) on IAM

---

Nightwolf...if there is something you want me to see could you be more specific. Other then the Prana/Lat diatribe I have read everything. Alas...total recall eludes me.

[Nightwolf]

@ fitz:

What I would like you to see is the events of Day 2. If it was my intent to point out something more specific at this time then I would have done so already.

May I ask what your vote is currently waiting on (as in, what needs to happen either on your end or on someone else's before you choose to place one)?

Same question

@ Nexus

as well.

[Battousai]

Lateralus22 and Leech have been prodded!

[havingfitz]

Bold in quote by me....

@ fitz:

What I would like you to see is the events of Day 2.

If it was my intent to point out something more specific at this time then I would have done so already.

May I ask what your vote is currently waiting on (as in, what needs to happen either on your end or on someone else's before you choose to place one)?

Perhaps you should give D2 a closer read --> http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2480794

I have a few questions out to people I suspect. Other than my recent light hearted vote on Sotty, and during RVS, I usually only vote when I definitely want someone lynched.

Is there a rush? Should I not wait to get answers to my questions?

[Nightwolf]

Perhaps you should give D2 a closer read

No, actually you should. Most of the questions you have out have already been answered D2, hence me suggesting it in the first place. They may not be the type of answers you are looking for, I wouldn't know, but the way you asked them makes it pretty obvious that you haven't noticed the answers in thread already.

[LlamaFluff]

Responses to a few things

Yes I ran it by the mod before someone asks.

Will make more of a case tomorrow with any luck. As I said, I have a lab to writeup now.

[Lateralus22]

That quote from Prana is talking about the link fitz posted to show that dalt had "played" here before. That is not part of this thread and is in no way an example showing that he did not read this one.

Alright, it isn't part of the thread I can accept. However it is part of the game, if you don't even click the link and yet you still comment on that I see that as contradicting. If you don't like meta fine, don't participate, if you want to comment actually know what you're commenting on.

The second quote I gave is valid, and more worrying.

Regarding Prana's case on LlamaFluff, frankly it sucks. When I first glanced over it I was happy because Llama was one of the few people I suspected to be linked towards Prana but the case itself just doesn't look like a bus to me. A lot of those points were already explained or are literally misunderstood by Prana. Llama explained himself well.

The point about the voting mechanics is a misunderstanding. I do think that Llama trying to put a no lynch by un voting is worrying, I believe you thought Xite was scum at that point correct?

Now on LmL your point against Llama on speculating a night kill is a complete contradiction as you've done so yourself, your point is complete WIFOM as you yourself have stated.

Although, Lateralus does seem really angry that Prana's defending himself, which I don't even know why hes getting so annoyed. Surely Prana defending himself is a good thing, would you rather, if he was town, he rolled over and let you lynch him?

Brilliant logic Nexus. Prana defended himself so he must be town. How do you do it? Now let's look a little deeper at the situation or better yet actually read my posts when I spoke about this directly, this post happens to be right above yours, did you know that?

It annoys me that what I accuse you being scummy you reply with an explanation that gives you off as anti town. Mainly the "Oh I didn't read the thread"

Prana I really don't want to bring this up again but I think I should. Please just confirm this, the majority of your defense is,

1. Got distracted
2. Forgot about Xite's earlier scumminess
3. Refuses to use meta
4. Did not read vote count

Is this right?

Also Llama earlier you had told me you liked my points against Prana, which points were they and what did you think of Prana's defense?

[PranaDevil]

In regards to the Dalt stuff Lat, I've made it quite clear. The fact there was a link AT ALL showed he had been on the site before. I honestly did not believe someone would go to the trouble to fish out a meta link and fail to pay attention to the fact it was years old and he replaced out basically without doing sod all. I fail to see how that is scummy, you however are making some huge deal out of it.

1 - Yes
2 - Fuck no.
3 - Yes
4 - Knew it wasn't a hammer vote, thus didn't need to care at that point.

Number 2 and 3 are annoying though, you're still repeatedly going on about "Forgetting" Xite's scumminess, I have repeatedly pointed out this is not the case and shown why, please stop deliberately misrepping me by choosing to mislabel what you are saying. It's anti-town at best, and scummy at worst.

The way you add number 3 there makes out that choosing not to use meta is somehow a scum tell. I'd like to know why that would be, when there are a variety of factors that could lead to perhaps playing differently in different games.

Lat, want to stop tunnelling on me now? Day 1 you are town as hell, Day 2 you're getting scummier by the post for this severe tunnelling.

-----

Llama, interesting video, but I'm getting the feeling that you posted it on the basis of people having to re-listen over and over just to try and pinpoint scummy behaviour, which is harder than just quoting it on the forum. Why are you suddenly switching over to video? I see no reason for it outside of preventing quoting of what you are saying. Well, that and preventing people spotting you going back on what you say if/when you do so.

I don't think videos are a good way of posting thoughts, as it prevents people actually looking over the posts properly repeatedly, and anyone who is working in an office and plays there, or would have restricted access to sites like youtube (Like I did for a month a while back while looking after my Dad) would be unable to view them. I would rather no videos were posted like that.

[Lateralus22]

Sigh Prana…

These aren't accusations… I'm trying to clarify if I understand your defense correctly…

Point #2 I don't understand how you're saying this now, can you give me the exact posts in which you defended yourself? The impression of that I got with related to being distracted and thus when you were questioned about the Xite read you didn't say you knew much about him. If you didn't forgot I don't understand why you wouldn't say them when I asked you on day 1.

Now #3 is asked because you're using that as an excuse for not investigating dalt more.

I'm done with tunneling you, that's kinda why I responded to a few other people. That being said I still think your scum so I still want you lynched.

[havingfitz]

Perhaps you should give D2 a closer read

No, actually you should. Most of the questions you have out have already been answered D2, hence me suggesting it in the first place. They may not be the type of answers you are looking for, I wouldn't know, but the way you asked them makes it pretty obvious that you haven't noticed the answers in thread already.

I do not see answers within D2 to the questions I ask in post 735. You telling me to go look for the answers to questions not even directed at you is annoying as hell. Since you are so interested in my questions to Llama and IAM...which have not gone answered...why don't you dig them up for me since you know where they are. Otherwise stfu. And since I doubt that will happen...how about answering my questions to you in my last post?