Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[Sotty7]

No I won't. Not if we are no lynching.

I would ask Llama doesn't either.

[Leech]

Llama, you're the one player in this game that I believe is town, so I'm going with you on this. I'm certain Sotty's scum, but I was nearly as certain about Xite earlier. If we're no-lynching, though, we're not discussing anything, we're no lynching. Doing this goes against my better judgment, but I want to prevent harmful information being gathered before the night phase. I'd rather make what I consider to be a bad move the right way, rather than make a bad move a terrible way.

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch

Sotty and Llama.....would you rank your top two suspects?

If either of you read this thread before the mod locks it, I'm going to ask that you do not answer this. There is absolutely no benefit for this to be answered at this time.

[havingfitz]

I don't see what the problem is. Scum knows who the town is but town doesn't know who the scum is. Whoever the NK is...assuming there is one (does there have to be one?)...will be confirmed town and their perspective would be nice. I haven't looked but I'd guess most of us already have made our opinions known. I know I have. Moot point now as the no lynch has occurred.

[Battousai]

Final Vote Count:

No Lynch -3- Sotty7, llamafluff, Leech

Not voting:

havingfitz

It is now N7, D8 will start Monday, Oct 11th at 1000 hrs (UTC-5)!

[Battousai]

Llamafluff -Vanilla Townie- has been NK'd, N7

With 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch pre-deadline! Deadline for D8 is October 20th at 1100hrs (UTC-5).


Day 8 starts, now!

[Leech]

I apologize for this giant wall of text. I spent the last few hours looking over this game, trying to make sense of this. Llama died, and it doesn't make sense for Sotty to have killed him. That means that either Sotty is a mastermind that knows exactly how I'm going to react to kills...or that I was wrong. The latter seems more likely as much as I hate to admit it. Let's look at the list of the living from the previous phase:

Sotty
Fitz
Llama
Leech

Scum-Sotty, would probably have killed me. Llama was her biggest supporter, and I was her biggest adversary. She couldn't have killed Fitz, becasue then she knew that I'd push for her, and Llama would probably vote with me. She probably wouldn't kill Llama, for the same reason. That would leave her with two people that actually voted her to be lynched in the previous phase. The only player she could kill, and still have a chance of winning, was me. On the other side of the coin, that's why the person that Fitz could kill the least, was me as that would give Sotty the best chance of winning. Fitz couldn't kill Sotty, as that would leave Llama/Fitz/Leech, and Sotty and I had both stated that Llama was most likely town. So killing Sotty, would have resulted in a Fitz lynch undoubtedly. The only person Fitz could kill, would be Llama.

Obviously if you take WIFOM into consideration, Sotty MIGHT kill Llama, but right after doing the same thing to IAU? Not likely. I'm not going to rule this out, but it just doesn't seem to be a likely choice. If I were scum-sotty, I would have killed my current player slot, as that would give me the best chance of winning. Killing the player that would arguably give you the worst chance of winning? I don't see that. It's possible, but I can't realistically entertain that as reality.

That does complicate things, though, I'm really not sure what to do here. Sotty has looked like scum to me since the flip of Prana, but Fitz is steadily creeping up there. His question ending the previous phase set off some serious alarms. Asking Llama and Sotty who their top two suspects are, before a no-lynch, is incredibly scummy. The only question I can see scummier than that is "SO, guys, who should I kill?" With there a total of 4 players, asking 2 for their top 2 suspects, it's nearly the same thing. Asking for the top two suspects is literally asking "Who wouldn't you kill, from a town perspective?" That was the worst question to ask at that moment in time. Sotty, on the other hand, slightly redeemed herself with the refusal to answer Fitz's question. Her "And I ask that Llama doesn't answer either" was the correct thing to say. The question is how obvious is that response, and does this actually reflect on Sotty's alignment? I'm not entirely sure.

Fitz in the previous phase voted for Sotty immediately before Nightwolf got Mod-Killed. This vote, with the level of inactivity we had, would surely have been a lynching vote. Looking over his reasons for voting, they are pretty much the same as mine. While I can obviously see why someone would agree with me, I'd have liked something additional so it didn't come off as parroting, like it does. It really didn't help matters that you can't remember the reasons you found people scummy earlier in the game. This is the exact type of thing that Prana had said, which is what started to expose him as scum. Lat's case against Prana was based around Prana's inability to keep track of his suspicions throughout the game. What you have said, is striking a similar tune. Also, there's the fact that I can't get out of my mind how you messed up about the game's setup in the beginning. I've only ever seen scum do that in this setup. That is a constant fact that is grating on my mind, and I'm not sure I should continue to ignore it. These small things keep piling on, especially with the NK in the last phase.

Sotty, however, is still scummy. To recap, again, she jumped all over Prana when she entered this game. Then in the next phase she abandoned it for a reason that I just don't buy. I felt that I provided a sufficient reason for her to doubt the "it looks TOO convenient" claim, but she wouldn't budge on the matter, or seemingly even entertain the thought of being wrong on the subject. Also, she was continually arguing that Scum would push mislynches, when the scum in this game haven't been. However, one thing to note is that one of my biggest concerns against Sotty was that scum haven't been pushing mislynches. Sotty was actively working against Nightwolf, vote included, before and after Prana's death. Considering Nightwolf was mod-killed and flipped town, that is a change. Scum-Sotty could have done this due to being called on it, but I'm not entirely sold on that. When I entertain the thought that the early game scum kills were obviously designed for WIFOM reasons, it's easier to accept the fact that if a kill is straight-forward later on in the game, it may be difficult to accept as such. I hadn't been looking at the whole picture before, and now that I am, things are different.


The lynches, confirmed town will be bold, scum will be in italics. I'm not counting the no-lynches.

Final Day 1 Vote Count:
Xite91 -6-

Lateralus22

,

Nightwolf

, Leech,

iamausername

,

tomorrow wendy

,

llamafluff

tomorrow wendy -5-

Xite91

,

LoudmouthLee

,

PranaDevil

, havingfitz,

Nexus

Llamafluff -1- ConfidAnon

Final Day 2 Vote Count:
Nexus -4- havingfitz, Leech,

Lateralus22

,

Nightwolf

LoudmouthLee -3-

iamausername

, Sotty7,

Llamafluff

Llamafluff -3-

PranaDevil

,

LoudmouthLee

Nexus

Final Day 3 Vote Count:
PranaDevil -2- Leech,

iamausername

NightWolf -2- Sotty7,

PranaDevil

Llamafluff -1- havingfitz
havingfitz -1-

Llamafluff

On Day 1: Everyone other than myself on that lynching wagon has been confirmed town. Fitz's vote is on Wendy, and Sotty's vote is on Llama. So, a few things could be happening here. FItz and Prana could both be scum and be on the Wendy Wagon, or CA/Sotty could be separating his/her vote from Prana while avoiding the town lynch.

On Day 2: Fitz is on the lynching Wagon, Sotty is on LmL. This is interesting. If could be that the scum didn't want to be devoid of all the wagons. Or, Sotty is scum and still avoiding lynches. Prana and Sotty are both on the non-lynching wagon. However, in this case it makes it clear that both scum aren't on the same wagon. This could further implicate that Ca/Sotty are scum avoiding not only lynching town, but also avoiding voting together.

On day 3: Ah, the scum lynch. Fitz was on Llama, while Sotty and Prana were on Nightwolf. Now, this is interesting as it would be the first case that Sotty/Prana had voted together. Considering that Prana flipped scum he obviously had to vote for Nightwolf, so it makes sense that he would chose the wagon to tie them both. However, this is in the same phase where Sotty is defending him. I'm not entirely sold on the fact that Prana would jump to the wagon with his partner knowing he most likely will be lynched in the amount of time that is left in the game. So, that makes this particular lynching phase a tough one to get information from. The bitch of it all is that neither Sotty or Fitz were on the Prana lynch. That makes things difficult.


Ok, now let's look at who died in the nights:

Night 1, Wendy: If Fitz is Prana's buddy then Wendy's death proves that both wagons were wrong. That means that both scum being on Wendy's wagon are on the same exact ground as everyone on Xite's. This could have been an attempt to throw the suspicions off of both wagons. Considering CA's vote was on Llama, that means that a CA/Sotty vote was just to distance from Prana. However, that really doesn't play into the lynching theory of Wendy. If Sotty/Prana are scum, there could have been a different target than Wendy, because there would have only been one scum on either of the two competing wagons. So, could have avoided killing Wendy, and focused on a different target if Sotty/Prana were a team. Granted Wendy could have been killed for a reason I'm not considering, but this just makes the most sense to me.

Night 2, LmL: Prana/Sotty/Fitz were all on different wagons. Fitz was on the lynching one. If Sotty/Prana are the scum furthers my suspicions that Sotty/Prana would be distancing from the lynch wagon. Furthermore Sotty was on that non-lynching wagon. This is the exact opposite of the previous night. Prana was on the second-highest wagon, where the subject was killed, and this time it's Sotty. Prana is on an equally large wagon, but Llama survived. This second pattern of the night kill being the second largest wagon, with one scum being on it each time, also points to a Sotty/Prana scum team. However it doesn't exonnerate Fitz either. If Fitz is Prana's partner they could have very easily both been on the losing wagon day 1, then decided to split up their votes in the next phase.

Night 2 1/2: Double No-kills. During the day phases two people were openly against No-lynching multiple times. Those were Fitz and Prana. Prana later referenced Fitz as being another player that was against it. In retrospect that observation could have been more telling than he intended.

Night 3, Lat: Lat was probably the most-town player of the game, and had been on Prana's ass for several phase prior to this. There really hasn't been any Lat wagon in this game either. From my perspective this kill happened for two reasons. 1) Lat was the most town. 2) Prana had to kill that thorn in his side. Considering up until this point the kills were obviously wifom based, Prana probably thought he could get away with this. Considering he almost did, I'm willing to assume that's precisely why Lat died.

Night 4, IAU: This one is an extremely tricky kill to analyze. IAU was probably the most obvious town player in the game, after Lat, so I can buy that as a reason to kill him. However, Llama was correct in that Sotty would be an unlikely killer. WIFOM on this could still point to Sotty, as she would be that unlikely killer, but that's a harder pill to swallow, considering the kill in the next phase. Fitz would make more sense to kill IAU than Sotty. Considering IAU was pretty much backing Sotty, it would be hard for Fitz to kill her with IAU around. That paired with the fact that IAU was the most town, seems like a much more reasonable kill choice.

Night 5, Llama: I have a really, really hard time believing that Sotty would kill Llama. Llama had stated on numerous occasions that Sotty wasn't scum due to IAU's post. No matter how many times I pointed out that many of IAU's points against Sotty were flawed, he clung to it. If Sotty is scum, then she is a genius to kill two of her biggest supporters back to back. I'm not ruling that out, but Fitz benefits more from that kill than Sotty does. Considering I spent the last two phases going after sotty, both for not going with the Prana lynch, and then after Prana flipped scum, she would have to know that I'd continue it in this phase if I survived. So killing the player that was defending her, twice? I'm having a hard time entertaining that thought. WIFOM suggests that she could do that, for this reaction, but it would make the game much more difficult to win. Considering I voted for Sotty in the previous phase, it makes much more sense for FItz to kill Llama, and to try and get me to kill Sotty in this phase. That, actually makes sense.

Having said all of that, I'm torn. I find my case on Sotty valid, still...but the killing of Llama, right after IAU just makes it hard to believe that Sotty is scum. Fitz's scummy suggestion, early game slip, and the last two night kills has me leaning towards Fitz being scum. I say in all of my games that when a player dies and flips town, that puts legitimacy on their suspicions, confirming them as town. Llama's drunken post where he looks at Fitz, is part of that confirmed town suspicion that I can't ignore. He pointed out something that I missed entirely, because I was unfortunately tunneling:

Today's the deadline, not looking good for Prana atm.

That's an extremely odd statement to make. That's all he said about Prana. He didn't defend him, he didnt add thoughts to why lynching would be a good thing...he just says "not looking good for prana". Why make that statement? I don't see the town motivation. Looking at that, it looks worse than what Sotty has done, in all actuality. Sotty was opposed to a lynch that could have been a scum setup. Looking at Prana's posts, I didn't believe they were, but I can't ignore the possibility that Sotty was, in fact just skeptical. The fact that Fitz ignored it, made that extremely odd comment, and hasn't mentioned it since? That's far worse. Considering Fitz has not only done what Sotty has, but to a worse degree, I can't hold Sotty's reaction against her.

I think Fitz is probably Prana's partner. I can see it being Sotty, still, but it just seems far more likely to be Fitz.

[havingfitz]

Well....I was zoned in on Sotty yesterday until the modkill. Now with Llama being the nightkill I have a nice heaping pile of WIFOM to work with. I'll reluctantly take a step back from Sotty and put her and Leech on equal ground for now. I will say this regarding the WIFOM that has built up in this game, Leech seems to have made quite the effort to point it out.

So Leech...in your quote on me above, how is stating the obvious indicative or either a town or scum motivation? And what have I not mentioned since what?

I need to do some ISOs. Will post more tomorrow and as I am v/LA from Wednesday-Friday, I may put down a vote tomorrow as well.

[Leech]

I will say this regarding the WIFOM that has built up in this game, Leech seems to have made quite the effort to point it out.

I agree. I went to great lengths to look over this game, start to finish, to come to a solid conclusion. Why are you insinuating that's a bad thing? It is LyLo, so if there's ever a time to look at things from all sides, it's right now. Look at just how many dead townies have called the kills by scum, in this game, WIFOM kills. Yes, I'm going to point it out and speculate on it, because it's all we have. I've made quite the effort to understanding the kills, and trying to figure out the true reasons behind them. You're in your own little world if you think that's a bad thing.

So Leech...in your quote on me above, how is stating the obvious indicative or either a town or scum motivation?

It's that you showed no interest, at all in Prana's lynch. By that, I mean you showed no emotions either for or against it. You pretty much ignored it entirely other than that "stating the obvious" comment as you're calling it. You made it a point to use my case against Sotty changing her tune about Prana, but you showed no signs of caring about Prana's flip at all. That's indicative of scum motivation, simply because he was scum and you pretty much ignored the entire bandwagon and lynch of that scum. You not only did this before he was lynched, but after as well.

[Sotty7]

Okay I am here, just waking up. I plan to give this game a lot of my time today to try and figure out which one of you is the last scum. I haven't really read todays posts yet but I will also get my head around that soon. Just a heads up to let you guys know that I am here.

[havingfitz]

I will say this regarding the WIFOM that has built up in this game, Leech seems to have made quite the effort to point it out.

I agree. I went to great lengths to look over this game, start to finish, to come to a solid conclusion. Why are you insinuating that's a bad thing? It is LyLo, so if there's ever a time to look at things from all sides, it's right now. Look at just how many dead townies have called the kills by scum, in this game, WIFOM kills. Yes, I'm going to point it out and speculate on it, because it's all we have. I've made quite the effort to understanding the kills, and trying to figure out the true reasons behind them. You're in your own little world if you think that's a bad thing.

What are you accusing me of here? You have posted a lot of analysis and made a lot of speculation about WIFOM...both WIFOM for why things could be in the interests of scum and why they couldn’t be in the interests of scum. Which in itself is WIFOM. You are using it as an excuse for why certain situations are unlikely or likely. I’d give examples of each but I am strapped for time today getting ready for my v/LA the rest of this week to the other side of my little world. Sotty can see for herself if/when she ISOs you.

There is so much WIFOM with the last few NKs that I really have no strong intuition towards either of you...but I am starting to lean towards Leech. You have gone virtually unscathed throughout this entire game and if someone presumably very townie is continuing to last this long...something is not right. But there’s WIFOM again. I have had a town read on Sotty for most of this game until recently..mostly due to PoE. But combined with my town read on you for most of this game...you’re both about even to me. Pardon the rambling...I don’t have the time to edit for reading ease.

So Leech...in your quote on me above, how is stating the obvious indicative or either a town or scum motivation?

It's that you showed no interest, at all in Prana's lynch. By that, I mean you showed no emotions either for or against it. You pretty much ignored it entirely other than that "stating the obvious" comment as you're calling it. You made it a point to use my case against Sotty changing her tune about Prana, but you showed no signs of caring about Prana's flip at all. That's indicative of scum motivation, simply because he was scum and you pretty much ignored the entire bandwagon and lynch of that scum. You not only did this before he was lynched, but after as well.

PD was not near the top of my suspect list prior to her flip (hence not a lot to say about her) and I typically do not comment on people after they have been Lynched or NK’d. Feel free to check it. Did you comment on PD after their scum flip? other than trying to determine links between Prana and the remaining players there is nothing regarding her scum flip that needed to be said. Were you looking for a Hooray? Would you agree some people view post-flip comments to be scummy?

Where did I use your case against Sotty? Did I use some of the same words you did? Did I infringe on intellectual copyrights? What are you talking about?

On that note...

I’m not back online from Wednesday-Saturday

so I don’t envision getting a vote out before then like I thought I might.

I would prefer to see your thoughts before I vote anyway (assuming I get the chance to pick) so my v/LA is probably a good thing.

[Sotty7]

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

Xite91 -6- Lateralus22, Nightwolf,

Leech,

iamausername, tomorrow wendy, llamafluff

tomorrow wendy -5- Xite91, LoudmouthLee,

PranaDevil

,

havingfitz,

Nexus

Llamafluff

-1- ConfidAnon

Not Voting:

No one

Final Vote Count:

Nexus -4-

havingfitz, Leech,

Lateralus22, Nightwolf

LoudmouthLee -3- iamausername

, Sotty7,

Llamafluff

Llamafluff

-3-

PranaDevil

,

LoudmouthLee, Nexus

Not Voting:

No one

Final Vote Count:

PranaDevil -

2-

Leech,

iamausername

NightWolf

-2- Sotty7,

PranaDevil

Llamafluff

-1- havingfitz
havingfitz -1-

Llamafluff

Not voting:

Nightwolf

I'm posting colored vote counts more for my own benefit than anything else. Helps me see it clearer.

So I have been dreading today. With how much suspicion I had yesterday I knew I wouldn't be the kill and would probably have to spend a lot of the day defending myself from either Leech or Fitz. The fact that I made it into LYLO with both of you was my worst nightmare coming true.

However Leech surprised me. He was tunneling really hard on me yesterday, twisting everything I posted that day as scummy. The fact he is willing to stop, take a breath and take a look at the whole picture makes me feel a little better about today.

Since we are all drinking from the wine today, here are my current pressing thoughts.

• “Why isn't Leech dead yet?”
  
  
  I thought that after PD flipped scum, Leech would have been the next kill. I was surprised to see Iam take the hit instead. Leech was all over PD and with the result of the flip it gave me a very townie feel. Then Llama died when I really thought that Leech would once again take the hit to make me look worse. Him being alive is a pretty big sticking point for me. Of course, he could have been kept alive by scum Fitz to be used as an attack dog on me. So it isn't really damning and it also isn't something that townLeech would have had any control over. It just makes me uneasy.

• Fitz's careful tone.
  
  
  When I read his posts I feel like Fitz is just hedging his bets. Especially the last couple of days, he seems to stand back and let everyone else argue then every now and then drop in with some thoughts. His vote on me yesterday was weird. Day six he believes I am cleared because “I'm inclined to think both scum votes were in play” when it came to day one and the lynch/kill. He pushes Llama though this day.
  
  Day seven dawns and suddenly his scum picks are myself and Nightwolf. The two likely biggest wagons for that day. He completely abandons his Llama suspicions with no detailed explanation and it looks like he did this because Llama wasn't going to be the lynch that day.
  
  Fitz has seemed to place himself in the middle of town consensuses in the last couple of days, not making moves that might make waves. I don't like that.

• Leech's change of mind.
  
  
  Flat out, I think it is unlikely that ScumLeech would have come out with such an open mind today. The fact he did and even comes to the end of his post saying scum is probably Fitz is a real surprise to me and makes me think town. He could be manipulating me just for kicks, but with the win on the line, I don't see it happening.

• Fitz being away for the first no kill
  
  
  This is bugging me and I will go and look to see if Fitz was posting around this time he was supposed to be V/LA but why would scum cut short night like this if their buddy wasn't there to talk to? I am going to investigate some more here, but this points very heavily to Leech scum.

If I had a gun to my head and had to vote right now it would probably be for Fitz, but I'm not ready to place my vote at all yet.

Another post incoming.

[Sotty7]

Another thing that has been eating at me about Fitz is his claims that scum wouldn't bus in a game like this.

tl:dr -

anyone accusing me of bussing a lone partner in a two player game...and maintaining that opinion of guilt with their replacement when there have been frequent options to switch elsewhere ...fmpov is sadly mistaken or scum.

With only two scum in this game I do not believe scum would be as likely to bus their partner. Therefore I am happy to consider Leech town. I would almost feel the same way about Nightwolf based on his suspicions he voiced towards Prana....but they were only voiced. However...as the day was still up in the air and he could have very easily hopped on the Llama bandwagon thereby saving Prana from a lynch...I am inclined to look at Nightwolf as town.

The thing that bugs me the most about this is that is Fitz has been in a game where the scum has bussed their buddy in a two man team.

Trouble at Warren State Mental Hospital

I was scum in this game and after leading a myslynch after replacing in, I bussed my buddy Howard Roark and basically rode the town cred to a scum win. What makes this game even worse was that the town had the chance of having power roles in this game depending on the luck of the draw. As it turned out the scum drew two cops and a doc. (12 player game, yes I got very lucky)

Fitz was a witness to this game and I know he remembers it because that's why he voted me as soon as I replaced into this game.

The experience doesn't match Fitz's reactions and I would like an explanation.

[Sotty7]

Leech, your reasons for suspecting me are somewhat valid. I did back off PD and with him flipping scum I know how that makes me look. But since we are already drowning in WIFOM here is another sip from the cup, my scum meta is one of bussing. If you look though my wiki you'll see that I tend to push my partners towards the noose rather than protect them. I certainly never go out of my way to constantly defend them or protect them. I like to take the town cred of a bus if it is presented to me. Check out mafiaphobes, Gonzo and of course that game I posted above as the most recent/obvious examples. All of my scum games show me pushing on my buddies if the opportunity presents itself and even when it doesn't. Ladies Night is my most recent scum game and that was just a horrible game for me from start to finish, I don't remember bussing in there because I was too scared to do much of anything.

Basically what I am saying it that I would have bussed the crap out of PD in that situation. Especially with all the ground work I had already laid out for his lynch the day before. I just made a judgement call that turned out to be wrong. I am working hard to right that wrong.

= = = = = = =

I'm going to stew on this a little more. Spend some more time reading the game and probably meta'ing the both of you. With Fitz being away there is no rush, but I will try to post some thoughts every day as I sort this out.

[Sotty7]

Leech, why did you hammer no lynch when Lat asked to wait for Fitz to get back to the thread before it was pushed though?

[Leech]

You have posted a lot of analysis and made a lot of speculation about WIFOM...both WIFOM for why things could be in the interests of scum and why they couldn’t be in the interests of scum. Which in itself is WIFOM. You are using it as an excuse for why certain situations are unlikely or likely.

Yeah, I am. This game has significantly more WIFOM than most due to the scum's choices, so it's going to be brought up more. If you have this magical way of finding scum that doesn't involve looking at actions, trying to find the scum motivations, as well as the town...by all means share this secret with me. Reading over this game, the only way I can make sense out of the kills, is to tread into WIFOM territory. It's the only way, in this game, to determine what situations are likely or unlikely. So, once more, I don't understand how this is a "bad" thing, as your original post on the matter seemed to suggest.

PD was not near the top of my suspect list prior to her flip

(hence not a lot to say about her) and I typically do not comment on people after they have been Lynched or NK’d. Feel free to check it. Did you comment on PD after their scum flip? other than trying to determine links between Prana and the remaining players there is nothing regarding her scum flip that needed to be said. Were you looking for a Hooray? Would you agree some people view post-flip comments to be scummy?

First, the bold: That's the point I was getting across. PD wasn't a suspect...why? There was this giant conversation that spanned two entire phases. One of them was a no-lynch phase, then the one immediately following Lat's death. You were not involved in it, did not mention it, or have any interest in it. That's my entire point! How can you completely ignore a case being built on a player, and not stop to add insight? Yes, if you didn't have a scum read on him, why didn't you say anything? Earlier in the game you didn't want to read the exchange between Lat and Prana, and then mysteriously when Prana's one of the main suspects of the day, you only make vague statements about him, that have no reflection of your thoughts on him as a player. In fact, I'll quote every time you mentioned Prana after Lat's death:

I don't think Lat was especially high on anyone's lists so his loss doesn't help a lot...his main suspect was Prana so that would be some nice WIFOM headed Prana's way.

You are already brushing off any potential case made against Prana as WIFOM. That's all you say, "he has wifom headed his way" seriously? Why not add your thougths on whether or not you agree with Lat or not? Oh, that's right, you never read the exchange between them...that's convenient.

Things have slowed down a bit. Prana continues to get a good deal of attention from a lot of players. I need to refresh myself on why that is so as off the top of my head I couldn't say. Still happy where my vote is.

How interesting is that? You just told me that Prana wasn't near the top of your suspect list so you didn't have much to say about him. Yet, earlier you claim that you're going to refresh yourself on why Prana has the attention he has, but you never follow-through.

Prana and CA/Sotty haven’t garnered nearly as much suspicion throughout the course of the game as you have so it’s not the same situation. Deal with it.

Really? Didn't you just say that Prana had gotten a good deal of attention, and that you'd remind yourself why? Instead of doing that you just come back and say he's not as suspicious as Llama. Oh, and thanks for explaining to us exactly why he wasn't as suspicous as Llama, that was helpful and filled with great insight! /sarcasm

On the subject of Prana, you are always intentionally vague.

Today's the deadline, not looking good for Prana atm.

Already brought this up in my last post, but I'm reposting it just to show how you spent the entire time mentioning his name, while adding nothing. Obviously if you are his partner, you wouldn't be for his lynch. However, you probably wouldn't want to oppose it either. So, you just mention his name and ignore it completely.

You are right, Fitz. Prana wasn't at the top of your scumlist. That's probably because you ignored everything said about him, made intentionally vague comments, and were completely unhelpful one way or the other the entire phase. Actually stating an opinion on the matter would have helped drastically, you decided to spectate though. Town believing scum is town, happens. Town completely ignoring multiple cases on someone as to why they might be scum, though? Not nearly as likely.

As far as not mentioning someone after they flip, you took that the wrong way entirely. You did not, in any way, try and link other players to Prana. You didn't look over interactions or try to find scum partner patterns. Scum was lynched, and you moved on. I wasn't asking for a "OMFG! We got scum! We fucking got them!" reaction. When scum dies, the town tends to use that flip as a method of scumhunting. This, you have not done. I believe the entirety of what you said on the matter was "Leech could have lynched Llama instead of Prana, so he's probably not scum." or something to that effect. That was it.

Where did I use your case against Sotty? Did I use some of the same words you did? Did I infringe on intellectual copyrights? What are you talking about?

Did you feel like I was attacking you for saying that? I didn't say you deliberately parroted me. I'll rephrase: I wish you had a more in-depth analysis, other than what other people, in this case myself, have already said. Your arguments towards Sotty added nothing new that could be worked with. Instead of posting all the words you did, you could have just quoted me with an "I agree" or something. You literally didn't add anything to the discussion that wasn't already said.

“Why isn't Leech dead yet?”

I'm not sure if you were looking for a response to that, but I'll give it a shot. I think the reason that I wasn't killed probably has something to do with the fact that I've been on every mislynch in this game. While I went after Prana pretty hard, I also went after Xite and Nexus pretty hard too. It's not only the lynches, either. Early game I went after Fitz pretty hard for his issue with Dalt, I was pretty adamant about Llama having to be scum...The list goes on and on. While I was right about Prana, I've been wrong far more often than I was right. With my track-record in this game, I would not be surprised that if I got lynched in this phase. I've played a particularly horrible game, and I know it.

Compare that to IAU. He also pegged Prana. However, I do not lose any pride in saying that IAU is a much smarter player than I am. I'm not surprised that he was killed over me. He was probably a larger threat. In fact, if it weren't for the mod-kill/No Lynch in the last phase, I might have actually lost the game right there. If IAU wasn't killed, I bet this game would be over by now. In fact, when I asked Llama about it from the standpoint he was scum, he said it was either "IAU or Fitz" who would be the kill.

I believe you answered your own question anyway, though:

The fact that I made it into LYLO with both of you was my worst nightmare coming true.

This is actually the reason I believe Fitz to be scum over you. If you were scum, I would have died in the night. There is no question in my mind about it. Llama was your biggest supporter (I don't think you're stupid enough to kill your two largest supporters consecutively) and you couldn't kill Fitz, because then you'd have to convince Llama to vote for me. Considering all three of you said in the last phase that I was most likely town due to my pushing of Prana, that doesn't seem like the best choice and probably wouldn't have been winable. The only option I saw for a Scum-Sotty, was a Leech kill in the night. Scum-Fitz absolutely could not kill me, or it would have been game-over for him, as well. Llama was already suspicious of Fitz, and he didn't believe you were scum either. So if Fitz killed me, it was almost an auto-loss for him.

But since we are already drowning in WIFOM here is another sip from the cup, my scum meta is one of bussing.

Yeah, and I've said before, mine isn't. That's just a newbie game but I protected my horribly scummy partner, and his even more scummy replacement to the end. Granted, I had to fake cop-claim, and literally set myself up to be lynched in the process, but I don't bus partners. (I had a ridiculous scum strategy in that game though, so I'm not sure how valid this example actually is.) Read that over and look at the plays of WhiskeyJack/Tazaro. Both of them were obv scum, and I protected instead of bussing. That's the only real game I have to show my anti-bussing meta. Though I guess you could read this game for some sort of confirmation. I was town, but after the D1 scum kill, successful doc protect N1, you'll see how much I emphasize on the point that I wanted a clean sweep of the scum. Even though I was town in that game, it does mirror my goal as scum. I don't bus, I want to sweep the town cleanly every time I play. To me, it's more of a challenge.

Anyway that's all the evidence I have to back up that claim, but you said earlier that I didn't seem like the bussing type. You are right about that.

Leech, why did you hammer no lynch when Lat asked to wait for Fitz to get back to the thread before it was pushed though?

I had two motivations for hammering. The first was the potential of someone getting mod-killed. My logic was, if someone is inactive, then they can't get mod-killed in the night. Also, we had already discussed earlier that there should be no discussion. The no lynch should happen at the beginning of the day. Lat was asking what kinds of discussions we should have, and IAU was wanting to wait and see if we were all still here. I felt that it was best to end the day to prevent discussion, as well as head into a non-modkillable phase, though preventing discussion before the no-lynch was my prime motivator. It's the same reason I hammered No-Lynch when Fitz asked who your's and Llama's top two suspects were. Hammering to prevent discussion that can persuade the night kill, is the correct move to make, regardless of whether or not someone prefered the hammer from a specific person.

I'll go as far to say that if I was in that same position right now, Lat still being confirmed town, that I'd hammer for those very same reasons still. If it's going to happen, it needs to happen at a point that it gives the scum the least amount of information, and the least amount of time to come to a decision on who to kill.

I'm going to stew on this a little more. Spend some more time reading the game and probably meta'ing the both of you.

I'll make it easier on you, most of these are newbie games, but they compose the majority of the games I've played on this forum:

I linked two games above, one of them I was scum and played the role pretty decently. The other, shows how good I can be when I'm on the ball. Though, I doubted my suspicions in the end, which could have lost the game, if not for the fact that Fonz was luckily the cop and investigated my suspicions.

This game is a pretty decent example of me being on the ball. In day 1, I did nail both scummers in the game. (Though it does show my little patience for idiocy, hence my call for a policy lynch D1)
This game I was wrong from the very start. Tunneled a player relentlessly until she finally got lynched, and nearly lost the game for the town at the end, before I finally got it right. This is one of my worst games, ever.

The rest of my games are really more of the same. I either did, ok, or very poorly. I haven't played that many games on this forum, but out of all of them, I think those would be the best to look at in terms of my "normal" play for either faction.

[Sotty7]

Leech, what do you think about Fitz's reaction to the massclaim suggestion put forward by Iam on the first page?

[Leech]

Well, I've mentioned this several times, I've only seen scum make that mistake in a mountainous game before. Granted, I've only read a few of these setups, but the only time I've seen that mistake, it's been a scumslip. I'm not sure why you asked that considering I had just recently brought it up, and expressed my views on it. I've been one of the few people that's mentioned that throughout the game. It should be me, asking that question, I believe. What is your take on that?

[Sotty7]

Yeah sorry, I posted that as I started to read the game again as was some what hoping for a nice little real time back and forth. Time kinda passed and it is less pressing now and/or important.

As for the action itself, it feels scummy to me, but it is more than likely probably null. In that I have been over thinking and it can really be explained by town or scum. I think I am going to put it to one side.

I am currently reading though the part of the game where Tomorrow Wendy first joined. I'm finding his interactions with Fitz really interesting as that seemed to be the only part of the game Fitz was around to engage in a extended back and forth with another player. I wonder if he would have done this if TW came out as Adel sooner. I think he felt comfortable debating with an apparent VI.

The only other time he enagaged someone for an extended period of time so far, was his little "spat" with PD about Dalt. They argued for a little while yet never voted for each other. Finding excuses to vote other people. I'm finding it quite telling now. It smells like distancing.

My biggest gripe on you so far Leech is how you seemingly chainsawed LmL in the early game. That post there, comes after LmL starts pushing hard on PD as scum and can easily be argued as you trying to discredit LmL who had begun a legitimate attack on PD. In your post after you do comment on early PD stuff saying his vote was opportunistic, but you are still working to discredit the push on him.

That aside, I am finding Fitz scummier than you for his suspect interactions with PD though day one.

[Leech]

My biggest gripe on you so far Leech is how you seemingly chainsawed LmL in the early game. That post there, comes after LmL starts pushing hard on PD as scum and can easily be argued as you trying to discredit LmL who had begun a legitimate attack on PD. In your post after you do comment on early PD stuff saying his vote was opportunistic, but you are still working to discredit the push on him.

That wasn't a chainsaw defense. Read the scum game of mine that I linked above, it will show you why I opposed LmL's calls to experience. I, myself, used them as scum in a game that ended a mere two weeks before this one began. I saw in LmL's words one of the scum tactics that I had used very recently. You could replace Prana's name with any other, and my reaction would have been the same. It wasn't who he was attacking, it was how he was attacking that I called him on.

I never suggested that people shouldn't push Prana, I don't see what you mean there. I called out your predecessor for calling for a lynch, extremely early, but I never suggested that anyone eased up off of Prana. I perfectly understood why he had the attention he had. It simply wasn't worth pushing for a lynch at that time.

[Sotty7]

I can accept that, I am just making note of interactions both you and Fitz had with PD and other players.

And I will get to those games eventually. I just want to push though a bulk of this game before I do.

[havingfitz]

I'm back from my v/LA but only for the day. Tomorrow I will be on vacation for 4 days with limited web access, so I shold be able to check in.

I have not been that suspcious of either of you for most of the game and the suspicions I have had (towards Sotty) were more based on PoE than on anything else. I really haven't focused on Leech prior to today and was happy to consider him town due to the way he pushed the PD lynch. As big a part as WIFOM has played in Leech's game analyses to this point I can envision him bussing PD hard to use it to distance himself from scum.

Equally...I was discounting Sotty for thin reasoning on her (CA) not being around when D1 ended and not having a vote on either of the main two wagons.

So...I don't have a good feel for either of you but the person I suspect more ATM (at the risk of a 3rd consectutive loss to a scumSotty) is Leech.

A few comments on the last few posts:

Sotty...iirc, my D1 spat with PD was regarding my suspicions towards dalt. Why would I have put a vote on PD, because they did not see the dalt situation the same as me? PD wasn't among my top suspects and once I suspect someone (for better or worse) I tend to stay with them.

Another thing that has been eating at me about Fitz is his claims that scum wouldn't bus in a game like this.

tl:dr -

anyone accusing me of bussing a lone partner in a two player game...and maintaining that opinion of guilt with their replacement when there have been frequent options to switch elsewhere ...fmpov is sadly mistaken or scum.

With only two scum in this game I do not believe scum would be as likely to bus their partner. Therefore I am happy to consider Leech town. I would almost feel the same way about Nightwolf based on his suspicions he voiced towards Prana....but they were only voiced. However...as the day was still up in the air and he could have very easily hopped on the Llama bandwagon thereby saving Prana from a lynch...I am inclined to look at Nightwolf as town.

The thing that bugs me the most about this is that is Fitz has been in a game where the scum has bussed their buddy in a two man team.

Trouble at Warren State Mental Hospital

I was scum in this game and after leading a myslynch after replacing in, I bussed my buddy Howard Roark and basically rode the town cred to a scum win. What makes this game even worse was that the town had the chance of having power roles in this game depending on the luck of the draw. As it turned out the scum drew two cops and a doc. (12 player game, yes I got very lucky)

Fitz was a witness to this game and I know he remembers it because that's why he voted me as soon as I replaced into this game.

The experience doesn't match Fitz's reactions and I would like an explanation.

I said I don't think scum are

as likely

...especially in a two person game...to bus their partner. I didn't say it was inconceivable and am now resigned to the fact that it has occurred in this game since both of you have pushed for PD at various points. All I recall about our previous games is that you were scum in both of them and won. The Warren Hosp game was a long time ago and I did not recall it's set up. A quick look at that game doesn't show a lot of effort on your part to bus HR and in fact you did move off his wagon for a time. Leech's push on the PD lynch was way more determined. WIFOM. However...that said, my previously expressed opinion on bussing within a two scum team could be seen as a good reason to keep me around if your name is Leech.

Question...in a two scum game is it more likley that neither scum would ever place a vote on their partner or that there would be at least the occasional bus? PD and I - never voted each other. PD and Leech - no votes on Leech and Leech led the D6 PD lynch. PD and Sotty - PD was on Sotty's player slot most of the game and Sotty had votes on PD for portions of D1 and D2 (and at most those votes made PD wagon 2 so not a lot of risk).

That aside, I am finding Fitz scummier than you for his suspect interactions with PD though day one.

What is scummy about our difference of opinion? Player A (PD) not agreeing with my reasons for voting player B (dalt) is not a reason to vote players A.

Reading over this game, the only way I can make sense out of the kills, is to tread into WIFOM territory. It's the only way, in this game, to determine what situations are likely or unlikely. So, once more, I don't understand how this is a "bad" thing, as your original post on the matter seemed to suggest.

I just see you using it as a crutch to explain everything you are doing.

PD was not near the top of my suspect list prior to her flip

(hence not a lot to say about her) and I typically do not comment on people after they have been Lynched or NK’d. Feel free to check it. Did you comment on PD after their scum flip? other than trying to determine links between Prana and the remaining players there is nothing regarding her scum flip that needed to be said. Were you looking for a Hooray? Would you agree some people view post-flip comments to be scummy?

First, the bold: That's the point I was getting across. PD wasn't a suspect...why? There was this giant conversation that spanned two entire phases. One of them was a no-lynch phase, then the one immediately following Lat's death. You were not involved in it, did not mention it, or have any interest in it. That's my entire point! How can you completely ignore a case being built on a player, and not stop to add insight? Yes, if you didn't have a scum read on him, why didn't you say anything? Earlier in the game you didn't want to read the exchange between Lat and Prana, and then mysteriously when Prana's one of the main suspects of the day, you only make vague statements about him, that have no reflection of your thoughts on him as a player. In fact, I'll quote every time you mentioned Prana after Lat's death:

I don't think Lat was especially high on anyone's lists so his loss doesn't help a lot...his main suspect was Prana so that would be some nice WIFOM headed Prana's way.

You are already brushing off any potential case made against Prana as WIFOM. That's all you say, "he has wifom headed his way" seriously? Why not add your thougths on whether or not you agree with Lat or not? Oh, that's right, you never read the exchange between them...that's convenient.

You may not have noticed but I have not been fully engaged in this game. Giving reasons and debating why I suspect people has taken up my gametime. I did not have time to involve myself in debates on people I did not have strong scum feelings on. Likewise…I was not going to defend anyone unless I had a strong town read on them…which I never had on PD. You on the otherhand have used PD WIFOM quite a lot on this day to support your suspicions. Speaking of PD…you seem to do a fair bit of defending PD D1.

Things have slowed down a bit. Prana continues to get a good deal of attention from a lot of players. I need to refresh myself on why that is so as off the top of my head I couldn't say. Still happy where my vote is.

How interesting is that? You just told me that Prana wasn't near the top of your suspect list so you didn't have much to say about him. Yet, earlier you claim that you're going to refresh yourself on why Prana has the attention he has, but you never follow-through.

I never got around to it. Time and lack of suspicion IMO did not permit it.

On the subject of Prana, you are always intentionally vague.

This is an accusation that can not be defended. Obviously every word I type is intentional. And vague is a matter of opinion. But where have I specifically done something vague regarding PD?

Today's the deadline, not looking good for Prana atm.

Already brought this up in my last post, but I'm reposting it just to show how you spent the entire time mentioning his name, while adding nothing. Obviously if you are his partner, you wouldn't be for his lynch. However, you probably wouldn't want to oppose it either. So, you just mention his name and ignore it completely.

As Prana’s partner why would I stick my neck out to state the obvious? If it was looking like PD was the lynch for that day, why not hop on to try and look better?

You are right, Fitz. Prana wasn't at the top of your scumlist. That's probably because you ignored everything said about him, made intentionally vague comments, and were completely unhelpful one way or the other the entire phase. Actually stating an opinion on the matter would have helped drastically, you decided to spectate though. Town believing scum is town, happens. Town completely ignoring multiple cases on someone as to why they might be scum, though? Not nearly as likely.

As mentioned above comments above regarding my actions towards PD. There is that intentionally vague accusation again. Maybe your confusing or painting my inability to hit scum with being vague. I was focused on my top suspects of which I usually listed my top 2 or 3, and PD wasn’t making my cut.

As far as not mentioning someone after they flip, you took that the wrong way entirely. You did not, in any way, try and link other players to Prana. You didn't look over interactions or try to find scum partner patterns. Scum was lynched, and you moved on. I wasn't asking for a "OMFG! We got scum! We fucking got them!" reaction. When scum dies, the town tends to use that flip as a method of scumhunting. This, you have not done. I believe the entirety of what you said on the matter was "Leech could have lynched Llama instead of Prana, so he's probably not scum." or something to that effect. That was it.

I have looked over PDs interactions with others….mostly on votes by and against him.

[Leech]

I'm back from my v/LA but only for the day. Tomorrow I will be on vacation for 4 days with limited web access, so I shold be able to check in.

4 days from the time of that post is the deadline.

However...that said, my previously expressed opinion on bussing within a two scum team could be seen as a good reason to keep me around if your name is Leech.

You, Llama, and Sotty all said that very same thing. So, why are you making that statement, when it would have applied to anyone?

I just see you using it as a crutch to explain everything you are doing.

This, again, doesn't even really make sense. I'm admittedly entertaining WIFOM in this game, because the scum have been making WIFOM-based kills. This is obvious and no one has contested that fact. I'm not "using it as a crutch" I'm trying to find the truth behind it. I've clearly expressed the reasons for my votes, and my suspicions in this game. Many of them are WIFOM-based, yes. BUt I'm not simply saying "This is WIFOM, So I'm voting this person." I'm trying to logically decide what is actually happening. Instead of just saying "He's using WIFOM as a crutch" why don't you actually give examples of me doing this? It's easy to say I'm doing one thing, but you're not making the effort to show me doing it. You are quoting other statements that you have apparently have problems with, and you are arguing those points. Why aren't you doing that here? Looks like you're trying to discredit my case with blanket statements.

You may not have noticed but I have not been fully engaged in this game. Giving reasons and debating why I suspect people has taken up my gametime. I did not have time to involve myself in debates on people I did not have strong scum feelings on.

Speaking of crutches your "I just haven't had the time" excuse is getting old. You apparently have the time to know what's going on (maybe) and you have the time to form your suspicions, yet you don't have the time to look at people other than the ones you already find suspicious? It just seems like such a copout at this point. You don't have time to involve yourself in debates with people you don't have strong scum feelings on, but you didn't use any time to look at anyone else. So how, exactly, would you have gotten a strong scum feeling on anyone else? Pretty much what you're saying is that your current suspects would remain your only suspects until they ended up getting lynched and you had to find a new one or two.

Speaking of PD…you seem to do a fair bit of defending PD D1.

I never defended PD. Please quote a single time where I've done so. In fact, I just replied to Sotty on the matter. What you call "defending PD" I call "Attacking a player for using a tactic that I had just used in a game two weeks previous." The fact that it was PD that was being attacked by LmL and Sotty's predecessor is irrelevant for the reasons I just stated in my last post.

I never got around to it. Time and lack of suspicion IMO did not permit it.

Lack of suspicion did not permit it? Then why, exactly, did you say in the thread you were going to? Obviously at the time you posted, you found it worthy of mentioning you were going to remember why he had so much heat on him. That is, of course, assuming you weren't just posting that for show, and actually meant that was something you planned to do. Your new found defense on the matter, though, definitely proves that's a stupid assumption to make. If lack of suspicion did not permit it, then you lied about intending on do so in the first place.

Obviously every word I type is intentional. And vague is a matter of opinion. But where have I specifically done something vague regarding PD?

Wow...why don't you look at the quotes I took the time to point out in that very post? Obviously my replies to those quotes, are the subjects of the comments I'm making on them. If you want I can re-quote all of them...or you could just read that post where I'm pointing it out. The choice is yours.

As Prana’s partner why would I stick my neck out to state the obvious? If it was looking like PD was the lynch for that day, why not hop on to try and look better?

How is "stating the obvious" sticking your neck out, at all? That's pretty contradictory. It's either you're "just stating the obvious" or you are "sticking your neck out." It can't be both. In any event, you took no stance on the matter and remained neutral. In case you haven't been paying attention, that's my entire beef with your handling of that situation. You did not take a side, one way or the other. Considering the cases that were against Prana, as town you should have. If you believed he was town, you should have said that. If you thought he might be scum, you should have said that as well. The fact that you said, absolutely nothing, is what makes me believe that you are his partner. You didn't stick your neck out..you did nothing.

The last bit of that is WIFOM. Hmmm, interestingly enough you're allowed to use it, but you're chastising me for it.I can see two easy reasons scum-you wouldn't hop on that wagon. Your limited time to play this game, for one. Maybe you weren't confidant enough to finish the game without being able to fully apply yourself? Maybe you thought that Prana wouldn't be lynched? There were only two votes on that wagon, so it was possible that another lynch would occur as well. Either of those two are extremely realistic reasons why you, in that position, wouldn't hop on that scum wagon.

As mentioned above comments above regarding my actions towards PD. There is that intentionally vague accusation again. Maybe your confusing or painting my inability to hit scum with being vague. I was focused on my top suspects of which I usually listed my top 2 or 3, and PD wasn’t making my cut.

I'm not confusing anything. You were actually trying to make cases for Llama, then rehashing mine against Sotty. You just sat idly by and said nothing that made it apparent that you felt one way or the other. I don't consider that inability to hit scum, I consider that ignoring the situation and waiting it out.

[Battousai]

Mass, 2 day to deadline/lylo prod going out!

[Sotty7]

Ack!

Any chance of a couple of days extension? Pwetty please?

[Battousai]

Since fitz was gone for 4 days, I'll cut that in half and give you back 2 days... Static deadline of Oct 22nd at 1100 hrs (UTC-5)!