Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[LlamaFluff]

I also don’t care for llama’s entry comment regarding a no-lynch on D1. 2 vs 9 might improve odds of hitting scum…but not by much. And by that logic wouldn't 2v8 or 2v7 etc be even better?

Pointing this out real quick due to my like of the setup again. The reason that a 2:9 is actually slightly better odds wise then a 2:10 is the mylo vs lylo scenario. In a situation where two scum remain, straight lynching will arive at that point with six alive at the soonest, at that point the chance of lynching scum at random is 2/6, if you no lynch and lose another town member, the chance improves to 2/5, which is a 7% increase. At different levels this differs of course (at F3/F4 it is +8%, right now it would only be +2%), so later is better (as it increases at ~1% daily). Statistically speaking though it is better to no lynch right now then never at all, although the later you no lynch, the better the towns win chance is. [/engineering major math rant]

[LlamaFluff]

So statistics aside...

The biggest point against HF is his stubbornness on getting off the dalt wagon, and being somewhat stubborn is not much of a tell for him. In fact looking at some old games with him, it may be a slight town tell for him to latch onto a wagon that no one else agrees with. Also I think his response to the IAU "mass claim trap" is WIFOMed to come from town over scum, as a goon-goon pairing would raise a few questionmarks to scum about the setup.

Vote ConfidAnon

CA just is scummy all over the place.

First large part of the game, CA just random wagons around a bit. Not something I have a problem with at all, although his exit from the "wagon at random" strategy has one glaring contridiction in it.

No,

I am pushing for your [PD] lynch

based on the curious comment after you said you tried to start a bandwagon. It seems, to me at least, that the only motivation to call something out as "curious" is to leave it open as an avenue of suspicion. This is hypocritical in regards to you wanting to start a bandwagon.

I don't intend to push for a lynch this early, but I did suspect him.

The bolded contridicts with that fairly obviously. He expresses want of a non-random wagon (explicity stated), says he is pushing for a lynch (explicitly stated) and when he is challenged about the wagon, he quickly backs off of it.

So we get onto the very ugly hop onto the korask wagon that CA claims he had a whole lot of reasoning for when I first summarized his push, so lets break down his reasoning.

1) "I do not like the entire post". Great! Why?
2) "He made a votecount! That is IIoA!" Sorta but not really, IIoA more applies to summarizing events that are occuring and not giving your own insight to them, like if I broke down the whole LML-Nexus thing
3) "Voting due to not believing someone". His vote is not horrible in reasoning here, just lacks backing. He is voting someone who he thinks is scum trying to wagon baselessly.
4) "Saying he is useless". You say it is trying to give him reasoning to lurk, without him ever exhibiting lurker tendancies. The "I am outclassed" possibility is completely ignored by him here. If CA wants to go after lurkers, there are other candidates.
5) "Rally Cry". This continues on to be said as "either side can do it". So CA is trying to force a null tell into a scum tell here to help further his case, although he says he views it as a scum tell.
6) "He is rude". Again, not a tell.

So his entire case was a sweeping generalization (1), slightly misused tells (2), not tells (3, 4) and nulltells (5, 6).

So, ConfidAnon appears to be pretty blatantly responding to his wagon by lying low and waiting for it to blow over. I am disappointed that this appears to be working for him.

. . . or I just forgot about the thread. Tell me how that confirmation bias works out for ya.

Also, how's the tunnel? Any lights in there? As I said above, my rvs play was mainly to get reactions. I did not have every thing I did analyzed and planned out to a T . . . it was mainly for kicks and giggles, although I was interested to see how people would wagon and things of that nature. So lynch me.

CA reacts to this comment by missing the entire point. IAU brought up that he was lurking to get the wagon off him, CA responds by saying he is tunneling on him, which is not the case. IAU brings up some points, such as the contridiction that I mentioned already, and you never respond to him, instead you stop posting for a few days (ie lurking to get a wagon off of you).

Nexu's inconsistant suspicions are kind of scummy, but could be a noob mistake. So I like the Korashk vote better.

We also get a fun little fence sit on Nexus at this point. CA quickly justifies joining the Nexus wagon, but writes it off as something can easily be backtrackable to jump on a different wagon.

Confid is town
Username is probtown

Why?

Also there is the attack on town reads of himself and IAU, attacking town reads of people you do not think are scummy is in itself scummy. I mentioned this earlier and it also got ignored. CA has missed/ignored quite a few things directed at him.

The rest of him play has been attacking my slot because korashk got replaced. He says getting replaced is a scumtell, which is hard for me to believe as I have seen CA replace out of tons of games, as both alignments.

[iamausername]

You spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to get us onto your baseless case on Dalt, only to give it up at the drop of a hat?

I don't think you quite understand the meaning of the term "at the drop of a hat". It implies that havingfitz did so quickly and easily - pretty much the direct opposite of "a ridiculous amount of time trying".

I think havingfitz has clearly shown that he was committed to his case on dalt, and I don't think it's fair to accuse him of giving up on it too easily. Giving up on it because literally everybody is telling him it is a terrible case no matter how much he tries to insist otherwise is not scummy. It's OK to compromise sometimes.

Gut feelings should never be enough to actually make a judgment alone. If all you have for thinking a player is a specific alignment is "gut" then there's probably a reason you don't have anything more substantial. Gut feelings backed by logical deductions from events in threads are one thing, but if it's mostly gut then it's mostly irrational reasoning with no logical backing. You can be wrong, you know. Basing judgment on gut is an egotistical "I'm right because I know I'm right" standpoint that should be avoided. Also, I'm always weary of a player that acts on gut reactions that is a defense that cannot be disproved. When it comes down to it, you've had a "gut" feeling nearly the entire game? I find that extremely unlikely to actually be the case.

Fuck that noise. Gut feelings own.

The biggest point against HF is his stubbornness on getting off the dalt wagon, and being somewhat stubborn is not much of a tell for him.

Naw, that's not a problem, it's the fact that he is failing to comment on anything else while being stubborn about that. The fact that he stuck to his guns even with a bunch of people being against him is more of a towntell, if anything.

...I feel like I've made that point before. Oh right, because it is in direct contrast to what CA did when people disagreed with his wagon. Yeah, he's still a good lynch.

[havingfitz]

@Nexus (post 261)…I’m not angry. This is a game
I still think dalt is scum (or worthless town) but apparently we’ll have to see how his replacement performs to garner any support.

I don't like the way fitz is still kinda focussed on dalt, and won't admit he's wrong.

Do you think people who flip flop are town? As for admitting I’m wrong…screw that. I don’t think I am. Even if the dalt position does turn out to be town I still think he lied. I still think he came across as tooooooo new/naïve (despite claims of mafia experience) and his lone post after my case was brought up (and several posts from others) came up was pathetic.

Why are you only mentioning Prana coming to Dalt's defense? Multiple people tried to explain Dalt's actions.

I know 3-4 people have been against my case on dalt but IMO Prana has gone above and beyond IMO to fabricate excuses on dalt’s behalf despite having no clue of the real reasons.

@Leech…Your post 272 was total crap. The portion regarding to my moving off my dalt vote is ridiculous. iamausername beat me to the reasons why. Then there is this:

You just said it's "bad play" and "in terms of D1 suspicions" which has absolutely no substance at all. You just gave up a case you appeared to believe in for one that you haven't even stated an actual reason for. You have your two weak reasons for Llama, which even you claim are lesser than an unstated reason that you apparently can't specify and only reference indirectly.

Sorry I didn’t spoon feed you. There a thingy on the bottom of the screen that allows you to sort on specific players. If you look at my ISO 6-8 posts they state and elaborate on my reasons for suspecting Korashk/Llamafluff. All while in the middle of trying to get my dalt case supported. These remain the only reasons atm for my suspicions towards Llamafluff so if you want more…just reread them repeatedly.

Though HF is quickly climbing up the suspicious ladder with his flip-flop wagon just because people didn't agree with a case he clearly believed in.

Thanks for the warning. Can you define a flip flop wagon and how it pertains to me (as opposed to anyone else in the game who has moved their votes? And as mentioned above…I still support a dalt lynch but I’m not going to keep my vote essentially out of play when there are other scum to catch.

@Llamafluff….I have never played in a mountainous game nor gone into a game from the start aware there were only two scum. The no-lynch logic appears to make sense…it’s just a foreign concept to me to do one early in the game.

While I take a break from my dalt wagon I’ll look to see who else deserves my attention. Speaking of others...

what's the deal with dalt and saga mod?

[Battousai]

Vote Count:

Llamafluff

-4- dalt54321, ConfidAnon, Nexus, havingfitz

Nexus

-3- LoudmouthLee, Lateralus22, Leech

Lateralus22

-2- Xite91, iamausername

ConfidAnon

-2- PranaDevil, Llamafluff

dalt54321

-1- Saga

Not Voting:

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch (pre-deadline)!

...

Dalt has until 2pm to post or he will be replaced. Saga has until the end of the day to post or he will also be replaced.

...

ConfidAnon, LoudmouthLee have been prodded!

[LoudmouthLee]

I don't know if anyone saw, but yesterday was my 30th birthday. There has been some celebration, and I was completely unavailable. I should have posted that. Give me a few minutes, and I'll do a complete read from my last post.

[LoudmouthLee]

Pardon the multiple quotes, but since I'm like 3 pages behind, I thought I would do this stream of consciousness style:

[quote="Lat]"Vote:"
"Random Vote:"

Eh last time I checked you weren't supposed to add the word "Random" before you vote. Regardless of wether it was valid or not it makes sense as to why Dalt was confused. And the vote bolding Dalt simply did what PranaDevil told him to. Unless I happen to die, get blinded, or have no internet access you can expect me to be here. [/quote]

Do you really believe this? This seems like (a) you're making an excuse for Dalt's confusion and (b) Rationalizing something that doesn't need rationalization.

I have gone on really feel like the Dalt play was a red-herring, and it has really dominated the post-waves for a while.

If dalt doesn’t get any traction soon I will switch to Korashk. Llamafluff if a good player who can probably sweet talk out of korashk's bad play…but in terms of D1 suspicions I think that player slot would be a good lynch. I also don’t care for llama’s entry comment regarding a no-lynch on D1. 2 vs 9 might improve odds of hitting scum…but not by much

I'm going to do something I didn't think I'd do... I'm gonna

Unvote: Nexus, Vote: HF

Firstly, I dislike his continual push to get Dalt lynched under the "lynch all liars" guise. Especially when he didn't push Nexus in the same way when Nexus obv. lied about the "I forgot my vote was on you and I wanted to see how you reacted." and HF didn't call for Nexus's head in the same way.

Secondly, I know how some people found HF's opening quote to be a nulltell, and some people found it town-ish. I found it scummy. Here's the quote and my explaination:

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

I don't know HF enough to metagame, but considering this to be a mountainous game (and it obviously is, checking out the title of the thread), his lack of knowledge of the game is inexcusable. To me, this felt so wrong, and it did at the time, which is why I kept on bringing it up.

BTW Llama…do you play on this sight under any other names?

Why does this even matter?

So, you abandon your case on Dalt for this. You list one parroted reason, and an OMGUS against Llama, but state it's "primarily for Korashk's play" when you never state specifics on.

Because it's the biggest bandwagon at the time.

I still think dalt is scum (or worthless town)

And yet, you were standing with the flag, waving it up and down, looking to lynch all liars. This was a weak case, and to me, you look like scum looking to bully.

[LoudmouthLee]

Pardon the multiple quotes, but since I'm like 3 pages behind, I thought I would do this stream of consciousness style:

"Vote:"
"Random Vote:"

Eh last time I checked you weren't supposed to add the word "Random" before you vote. Regardless of wether it was valid or not it makes sense as to why Dalt was confused. And the vote bolding Dalt simply did what PranaDevil told him to. Unless I happen to die, get blinded, or have no internet access you can expect me to be here.

Do you really believe this? This seems like (a) you're making an excuse for Dalt's confusion and (b) Rationalizing something that doesn't need rationalization.

I have gone on really feel like the Dalt play was a red-herring, and it has really dominated the post-waves for a while.

If dalt doesn’t get any traction soon I will switch to Korashk. Llamafluff if a good player who can probably sweet talk out of korashk's bad play…but in terms of D1 suspicions I think that player slot would be a good lynch. I also don’t care for llama’s entry comment regarding a no-lynch on D1. 2 vs 9 might improve odds of hitting scum…but not by much

I'm going to do something I didn't think I'd do... I'm gonna

Unvote: Nexus, Vote: HF

Firstly, I dislike his continual push to get Dalt lynched under the "lynch all liars" guise. Especially when he didn't push Nexus in the same way when Nexus obv. lied about the "I forgot my vote was on you and I wanted to see how you reacted." and HF didn't call for Nexus's head in the same way.

Secondly, I know how some people found HF's opening quote to be a nulltell, and some people found it town-ish. I found it scummy. Here's the quote and my explaination:

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

I don't know HF enough to metagame, but considering this to be a mountainous game (and it obviously is, checking out the title of the thread), his lack of knowledge of the game is inexcusable. To me, this felt so wrong, and it did at the time, which is why I kept on bringing it up.

BTW Llama…do you play on this sight under any other names?

Why does this even matter?

So, you abandon your case on Dalt for this. You list one parroted reason, and an OMGUS against Llama, but state it's "primarily for Korashk's play" when you never state specifics on.

Because it's the biggest bandwagon at the time.

I still think dalt is scum (or worthless town)

And yet, you were standing with the flag, waving it up and down, looking to lynch all liars. This was a weak case, and to me, you look like scum looking to bully.[/quote]

Mod, please delete the incorrectly parsed/quoted post above this one. Thanks.

[Xite91]

Sorry guys, just got some awful news and decided to spend some time to myself, things could be hectic, but I'll try my best to posts every day or so.

Okay, so;

@Lat - No slip, just a strong gut feeling. I'm done arguing with you about this now as it's just a "I don't believe you," "Well that's how it is," fight at this point

HF is looking scummier by the day...

@LmL - I didn't know what a mountainous game was until I wiki'd it. Also, I actually read through all of the flavor/rules and such
The alt question was probably for metagaming.
Can I have your tl;dr points? Because I can't tell what you're saying is scummy and what you're just saying.
This looks like a sad excuse to jump on a wagon with suspicions on it from all angles

[havingfitz]

@LML...your post sucks.

Was dalt confused or was he tricking us? (Insert your answer on his behalf since he can't/won't respond).
If there is a policy lynch I support...it's lynch all liars. Is there a policy lynch you support? (i.e. Lynch all policy lynchers?)
BTW..I was occupied when the whole nexus thiing happened and at least he hung around to explain it. I'm sure Leech or Prana could elaborate for him on it.
I have never even heard of mountainous games or knew they meant something with respect to the type of game set up. I just thought it was the mod's name for the game. How is that inexcusable? Pushing a stupid reason for something to be inexcusable is inexcusable IMO.
What is your point with this - "Because it's the biggest bandwagon at the time." statement? I didn't switch to Llama because of how big his wagon was...I was suspicious of his role from early in the game. Lots of weak sh;t LML. Not well done.

@Xite...how am I looking scummier by the day?

And despite me looking scummier by the day...LML is looking scummy for voting me? W-w-what? That makes even my head spin and it's bad for me no matter how I look at it.

[PranaDevil]

I'm sure Leech or Prana could elaborate for him on it.

And everyone else, and don't make it seem bad that everyone else could see huge gaping holes in your case because you were too busy being narrow minded on it.

[Battousai]

Dalt has failed to pick up his prod, and will be replaced by tomorrow wendy. Dalt is also banned from any future games by me.

[PranaDevil]

Does that mean Dalt is a dolt?

I'll get my coat.

[tomorrow wendy]

I didn't like how havingfitz played along with iamausername's claim thingy early in the game.
I like the posts by Leech and Loud Mouth Lee.
havingfitz voted for me.

unvote, vote: havingfitz

[tomorrow wendy]

btw, I did read this game, but my eyes glazed over by page 7. I understand that I am supposed to post about once a day.

he wrote

I have never even heard of mountainous games or knew they meant something with respect to the type of game set up. I just thought it was the mod's name for the game.

when way earlier he wrote

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

IDK about this.

seems fishy.

[Xite91]

@Xite...how am I looking scummier by the day?

Read your posts as if they're not yours, then you might understand.

Whoo-hoo another noob I get to mess with!!!

I didn't like how havingfitz played along with iamausername's claim thingy early in the game.
I like the posts by Leech and Loud Mouth Lee.
havingfitz voted for me.

unvote, vote: havingfitz

Interesting...

Unvote, Vote Wendy

btw, I did read this game, but my eyes glazed over by page 7. I understand that I am supposed to post about once a day.

he wrote

I have never even heard of mountainous games or knew they meant something with respect to the type of game set up. I just thought it was the mod's name for the game.

when way earlier he wrote

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

IDK about this.

seems fishy.

How does that seem fishy? They actually

support

each other as posts.

[tomorrow wendy]

@Xite...how am I looking scummier by the day?

Read your posts as if they're not yours, then you might understand.

Whoo-hoo another noob I get to mess with!!!

I didn't like how havingfitz played along with iamausername's claim thingy early in the game.
I like the posts by Leech and Loud Mouth Lee.
havingfitz voted for me.

unvote, vote: havingfitz

Interesting...

Unvote, Vote Wendy

btw, I did read this game, but my eyes glazed over by page 7. I understand that I am supposed to post about once a day.

he wrote

I have never even heard of mountainous games or knew they meant something with respect to the type of game set up. I just thought it was the mod's name for the game.

when way earlier he wrote

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

IDK about this.

seems fishy.

How does that seem fishy? They actually

support

each other as posts.

he also wrote

VOTE: iamausername for rolefishing.

Seriously...did you expect any town PRs to reveal themselves? Though I do support scum claims. You first?

You're funny. Do you even read mod-posts?

Apparently as well as iamausername

he didn't directly deny knowing the roles. In one case he is flippant, and in the other he denies know what "mountainous" is rather than simply stating that he didn't know the roles in this game.

in your experience, don't liars generally prefer saying half-truths or talking evasions like flippancy over stating obvert lies?

iamausername's post asking for a massclaim was direct enough in specifying this specific setup that I looked at the mod's first post again to make sure that I didn't miss anything. If h.fitz as town thought that this was a normal closed game in little italy then as town shouldn't he have been curious about why iamausername thought this game was different? It seems to me that h.fitz was a scum typing out what he thought would look like a townie post without really thinking like a townie.

[Xite91]

Fair enough, but first, why the huge post when you could have simply added the last quote and what you said instead of that huge post. (Makes it easier on the eyes)
Second, maybe he just didn't think about it? Yes, he seems scummy, but not based off of a null tell. A townie could have just as easily made that mistake

[tomorrow wendy]

Second, maybe he just didn't think about it? Yes, he seems scummy, but not based off of a null tell.

could this be an example of "buddying up"?
you're making a general excuse for him.
by "maybe he just didn't think about it" you mean that he didn't think about what, exactly?

"he seems scummy, but not based off of a null tell"
makes very little sense to me. please elaborate on "he seems scummy, but not based off of a null tell" i don't understand

[havingfitz]

I didn't like how havingfitz played along with iamausername's claim thingy early in the game.

Why?

I like the posts by Leech and Loud Mouth Lee.

What do you like about them?

havingfitz voted for me.

I voted for dalt. What do you think of his play? What is you mafia experience?

unvote, vote: havingfitz

OMGUS

Aside from me....once you have finished catching up, what other player or two are you suspicious of?

[Xite91]

Second, maybe he just didn't think about it? Yes, he seems scummy, but not based off of a null tell.

could this be an example of "buddying up"?
you're making a general excuse for him.
by "maybe he just didn't think about it" you mean that he didn't think about what, exactly?

"he seems scummy, but not based off of a null tell"
makes very little sense to me. please elaborate on "he seems scummy, but not based off of a null tell" i don't understand

No, it's not buddying up, it's trying to correct the mistakes of an obvnoob.
Maybe he didn't stop to think why he was making a big deal out of things, I've done that as town and as scum. Both are able to do it, and it's really not a scumtell, it's a nulltell. Do ya get it now?

By the way, this isn't an insult (I'd be much more harsh if it was) but is english your first language? I'm just curious

[tomorrow wendy]

nah, I think that it is a rather clear example of buddying up.

I didn't like how havingfitz played along with iamausername's claim thingy early in the game.

Why?

seems insincere to me

I like the posts by Leech and Loud Mouth Lee.

What do you like about them?

seems sincere to me

havingfitz voted for me.

I voted for dalt. What do you think of his play? What is you mafia experience?

he seems dumb. i've played beofre online, i've read games here.

unvote, vote: havingfitz

OMGUS

remind me, why was LAL enforcement a reason to try to lynch dalt but not a reason to lynch Nexus? Was it because your scum buddy was voting for Nexus and you didn't want to be on the same wagon?

Aside from me....once you have finished catching up, what other player or two are you suspicious of?

a certain person that has said that you were scummy more than a couple times without voting for you.

[tomorrow wendy]

calling scumteam of "Xite91 + havingfitz"

[havingfitz]

1) he didn't directly deny knowing the roles. In one case he is flippant, and in the other he denies know what "mountainous" is rather than simply stating that he didn't know the roles in this game.

2) in your experience, don't liars generally prefer saying half-truths or talking evasions like flippancy over stating obvert lies?

3) iamausername's post asking for a massclaim was direct enough in specifying this specific setup that I looked at the mod's first post again to make sure that I didn't miss anything. If h.fitz as town thought that this was a normal closed game in little italy then as town shouldn't he have been curious about why iamausername thought this game was different? It seems to me that h.fitz was a scum typing out what he thought would look like a townie post without really thinking like a townie.

1) At the point it became obvious to me that the set up didn't include any power roles (i.e. Xite's post towards me) I was still now aware that the name of the game (Mountainous) was any indication of the set up. And as for stating that I didn't know the game set up when I voted iamausername...wasn't that obvious?

2) Are you accusing me of lying? Have I provided any half-truths?

3) How did iam's post specify the set up? By asking for a massclaim it was in line with what my experience with game set ups is...i.e. that there are always PRs. Which is why I found iam's post suspicious.

[tomorrow wendy]

1) obvious? no. scummy to my eyes.

2)yes. i am accusing you of being scum, and lying about not knowing the set-up. To me you post replying to iamausername seems to be written with the voice of a scum player impersonating town, playing along by pretending to not know the setup but to still try to stop the gambit by accusing the gambit author of being a rolefisher.

3)

It's not usually done, I know, but

I have reason to believe we should massclaim immediately in this particular game.

I'm really hoping I don't have to explain why.

bolded for duh