mini 943- Greek Mythology! (And the winner is... ?)

[Iecerint]

I haven't quite gotten my role PM, yet, but I suppose I'm in the game already innit. I'll let you know if it changes my random vote.

Vote: greenindirt

.

First, I think his real reason for choosing which wagon to vote was that there was more rhetoric behind the one he chose. Second, Vas's response to his explanation is uncomfortably dismissive.

[Iecerint]

Still no PM.

I'd already decided on my random vote, so I figured I'd go ahead and post on it. Since I was privileged to read a bit with innocent eyes, I'm fairly sure it'd've been the same regardless of the PM result.

I was so proud of my RVS on greenindirt, but Shadow Dancer is literally very naughty.

Vote: Shadow Dancer

[Iecerint]

Yeah, that's the reason. The point of RVS is to generate non-RVS content. And it's not as if nothing had happened. My page 2 vote wasn't totally random. At best, he is not very thoughtful. At worst, he did it deliberately to weakvote a player upon whom nonrandom scrutiny had been placed.

[Iecerint]

Oh. How bothersome.

Unvote; Vote: greenindirt

[Iecerint]

I'm infatuated with Jack's avatar btw.

Just wanted to get that out there before I get my PM.

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Yep, 've got it. Fine with my vote, too.

Hi, SB. Glad you're sticking around. You're the only one I know apart from Plum, I think.

[Iecerint]

Yes. It wouldn't have been scummy if you'd said outright that that was the basis that your wagon choice, but you said it was something else. So it goes:

1. You choose wagon A over wagon B apparently for reason X.
2. You specify reason Y as the explanation.

Reasons X and Y are both fine, but substituting one for the other looks bad. It's possible you just didn't care that there was more rhetoric behind one than the other (i.e. that you're telling the truth), but at that level we start talking about anti-town play instead.

[Iecerint]

I described the general case. In this case, X is the enhanced rhetoric associated with the chosen wagon. Y is that the chosen wagon was presented more recently.

[Iecerint]

In post 35, Jack indicated that Shadow Dancer /randoming an RVS target is normative for him. As such, it's null, and voting him would just be scolding his anti-town meta. Since my GiD vote is based on my perception that GiD's action was possibly scummy, that was the stronger tell, so I switched to GiD.

However, I now have a better tell.

Unvote; Vote: Jojoohno

. Your post insinuates that my behavior in posts 34 and/or 36 is unfavorably indicative of my alignment, but I had not yet received my role PM. Either you are benignly mistaken, or you're too desperate to find "scummy" behavior outside your niche.

MG, Jack already commented on that issue; SD rolled dice in his only other game on the site. Do you think he is nonetheless more likely to be scum?

[Iecerint]

That hurts my feelings.

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I disagree @ SD. I've caught page 1 scum in my life. Seemingly trivial exchanges can sometimes indicate alignment if you get lucky. Still, I agree that the types of RVS votes you're describing are similarly anti-town, even if they're more normative than diceroll votes AFAIK.

[Iecerint]

^ It's less the first vote than the subsequent explanation for said vote re: green.

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If there are obvious reasons to pick a preferred wagon, but you specify alternate reasons as the basis of your choice, the chance that the alternate reason is untrue is greater than the case where the obvious reason is the specified reason. That's the basis of the belief. Since scum are more likely to perceive motives to say untrue things than town, that scenario has a slightly highly prior probability from scum. That's the basis of the vote.

But I like Jo better, as you say. I also agree that SV is taking your comment out of context.

[Iecerint]

I think Plum's vote was relatively trivial, and that was the only competition. Lynch all liars is a good heuristic, but there are a handful of cases where it may be reasonable for town to lie (e.g. to misstate details of their PR during a claim to throw off the scum NK).

I'm still confused by why he thought I was lying, but

doesn't matter anymore.

This is the basis of my comment that you understand I prefer Jo at this point. I suppose I may have overstated it, but I didn't see what else you could be referring to.

[Iecerint]

Shadow Dancer, is English your first language?

[Iecerint]

Shadow Dancer's command of the English language looks like it might be his second language. This is relevant because it might affect how his posts should be interpreted. I'm not sure why you thought I meant Vas. His English seems fine to me.

I don't get how Plum and Vas have discussed who I trust. What do you mean? Post 55 is Plum saying she disagrees with my pre-role PM scumreads, and post 60 is Vasu saying I'm town for nonspecific reasons. The first is the opposite of not discussing who I find suspicious, and the second isn't even related to that dichotomy AFAIK.

You're correct that I am trying to learn more about SD on account of the increased scrutiny.

[Iecerint]

It's not a matter of "going easy on him." It's a matter of taking all relevant information into account when analyzing his content.

[Iecerint]

Since the dicerolls are evidently null, SD's post at the top of this page is presumably the basis of the votes. To my eye, to the extent that said post is scummy at all, it is scummy because of its tone rather than its content. If the tone is symptomatic of English not being his first language, then it is not an appropriate basis for scrutiny.

This sort of thing is on my mind because players with weaker command of English have been the subject of largely unjustified wagons in my past (cf. Lazy Neighborhood mafia) that have distracted from scumhunting.

At the time, I thought that the dice-voting was not only anti-town, but also potentially scummy. Your meta information demoted it to merely being anti-town, which made GiD's potentially scummy action supercede it.

It's true that the Mod sent me my PM right after I posted about your avatar. I don't blame you for finding the timing a little suspicious. I will say, though, that I would probably have been thrilled had I learned that I was voting a scumfriend. I like distancing early D1 as scum (cf. OpenSource mafia). [/WIFOM]

[Iecerint]

Actually, you're voting SD for his diceroll, but that's neither here nor there.

Please formalize the basis for your belief that my response is "tense" and/or "restrained." Sounds like bullshit, etc.

Yeah, I found his tone to be a little off. For example:

I think random stage is over. Tell me, what is your reason to vote Iec?

This came off as quite brusque to me, so I assumed that this sort of thing was the real cause of the suspicion. The content itself is pretty unobjectionable IMO. I don't think you'd have complained about it had the tone been different.

If you think the content is actually scummy for some reason, please elaborate.

Vote Count

Shadow Dancer- Plum, Jack, VasudeVa, greenindirt (L-3)
MindGamer- Flava Flave (L-5)
VasudeVa- Bio Hazard (L-6)
Plum- Johoohno (L-6)
Johoohno- Mindgamer, Iecerint (L-5)
Iecerint- Snow_Bunny (L-6)
Snow_Bunny- Shadow Dancer (L-6)

With 12 alive, its 7 to lynch.

[Iecerint]

OK. His language implies that SB's vote for me was SERIOUS BUSINESS, whereas that was not really the case. The effect is achieved by use of few words, imperative mood, and simple sentence structure. That's what I mean by "brusque."

The point of my question was that that impression may be artifactual of English not being his first language.

You voted him because of his diceroll. I know this because I can read you in iso, find your votepost, and read your explanation. If your reason has privately evolved, that's fine, but you shouldn't use my ignorance of that as basis that I slyly claimed people voted him for tone rather than content.

I want you to elaborate on why it's scummy rather than merely identifying it as scummy. What the hell is wrong with pointing out that his action generated discussion? It looks sheepish to me, but not scummy.

[Iecerint]

(Please similarly (or analogously) indicate why my post was "tense" and/or "restrained.")

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He voted because you specifically told him to make a non-diceroll vote. If you want to damn him for lack of creativity, fine, but it's irresponsible of you to ask him to non-diceroll vote and then whine about his choice. Dumb, not scummy.

To be honest, I was thinking mainly about my own perception of his post, but the voter that most came to mind was GiD. His was the vote that escalated the situation and prompted me to address the situation.

I don't think I have noticed a difference in scum saying "it generated discussion" and annoyingmeta-town saying "it generated discussion."

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fine @ tense/restrained. I asked because scum sometimes make nonspecific claims like that for rhetorical effect. If you couldn't explain well, it would imply that that sort of situation might be in play. But your response is fine as far as that is concerned.

I didn't "plant the seed" of "brusque tone;" you requested it. If I planted said seed, it was after the cogs were already in motion.

If you're claiming that said "planting" was me asking whether English was his second language, then you are indeed horribly paranoid.

I've already answered your last question when GiD asked it. Check the previous page.

[Iecerint]

I'll wait until SD gets back before I do anything else with Jack, unless it is new content. He's re-asking old questions at this point, so I doubt things will progress much beyond here regardless of his alignment, and the fact that he has repeated already-addressed "problem area" questions means that he can't get much sneakier from a rhetorical perspective. (I say "sneaky" because I think he was aware that that fact had already been addressed. I think that because he seems to have his chronology pretty straight otherwise. But I'm trying to keep an open mind about his alignment at this point.)

I would love to hear everyone discuss their views of our discussion so far, ideally in the next 24 hours.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Allow me to clarify part of that first paragraph --

If Jack is town, it is unlikely that future discussion with him will make me more convinced of the fact. So that promotes ending discussion at the moment.

If Jack is scum, his rhetoric has already crossed the scumrhetoric threshold, so there's diminishing returns from continuing discussion with him at the moment.

Hearing from everyone else about circumstances is comparatively high-yield regardless of Jack's alignment.

[Iecerint]

I could have sworn that someone already asked about that. Maybe GiD's subsequent response made me mis-remember. But yeah, that's the post it came from. Specifically:

But to be fair Vas mentioned Shadow Dancer as mildly scummy and when commented on that by Jack puts a vote there a few posts later.

You're correct that I am trying to learn more about SD on account of the increased scrutiny.

Joo thought I was asking Vas about his ESL status for some reason because he didn't know why I would ever ask SD about his, but then he added that the mild scrutiny placed on him might make investigation justified. (That's how I read the quoted part.) My reply affirms that that was the basis of investigating. (I guess it's throwing you off because it doesn't fit the paragraph-for-paragraph answering style?)

As I *have* already indicated, I felt awkward about the PM receipt, too. I got it right after I posted about it for the 2nd or 3rd time. It seems totally reasonable that that would put a reasonable doubt in someone's mind. To me, lying about your PM receipt status kind of approaches "spirit of the game" problems, so I wouldn't do it, but the timing was such that a reasonable person might have wondered about that IMO.

Regarding your "paranoia" tell, that's interesting, but, even if valid in the general case, it doesn't apply in this instance. Crumb4U.

I meant that, if you're town, then because you'd already started with rhetoric that I considered scummy, continuing was unlikely to change my opinion about you. Continuing would ultimately just lead to your hypothetical mislynch. It looks like the question you asked wasn't really an old question, so that didn't apply yet.

OpenSource mafia is my only finished scumgame on the site. You'll see that I don't openly defend my scumfriends. The SK NKs me, though, so you can't see what I do when being pressured. There's a bit of a wagon on me D1, though.

The only other time I've been significantly pressured is on D2 of Mongol mafia, my first game on the site, where I was ultimately lynched (as town). My response to pressure will probably look similar to this, except with more wallposts.

[Iecerint]

OpenSource

Mongol Mafia

[Iecerint]

The rest of my games are in my wiki.

@ Jack

I was at first going to vote you outright for dropping me so quickly under the circumstances, but then I went back and read post 60. Back there, Vas voiced suspicion of SD. If that was sincere suspicion, it would seem that extrapolating on that basis would be rather default.

On the other hand, the equivocation could just indicate caution. And I have in my life used rhetoric similar to yours as scum, not that town couldn't use it to analogous ends, so I could see someone coming to that conclusion. It is probably less likely to come to someone not in some fashion on the receiving end of it, though.

MoarEquivocation4U.

[Iecerint]

Oh, more facts. In addition to the SD point, Post 60 also indicates that he thought I was town at that point. So that might further contextualize the equivocation.

[Iecerint]

Of course I wasn't. I was extremely equivocal. I explicitly indicated as much.

I am trying to determine whether I have perceived selective brilliance on your part.

[Iecerint]

I want Johoo to come play with me so that I can vote Jack without abandoning him.

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Um.

1. You are not very cooperative.
2. There are 12 players.
3. Why the focus on Plum?
4. That is only your 3rd post.
5. Carry on.

[Iecerint]

[Iecerint]

Plum, I agree with you about SV, but I think Joh pretty much did the same thing in his iso 3 where he insinuated that my pre-PM actions made me scummy:

@ Iecerint: Explain what happened between post 34 to 36 to make you change your vote.

@ Jack: Would you say that Iecerint is following you or do you read his play between post 30 to 36 in another way?

The second bit is either a pretty silly question, or he thought the alleged following was scummy. So I don't think he was innocently trying to get more information as you prior indicated.

It also isn't probable that Joh just forgot that I hadn't gotten my PM at that time:

I'm a fan of being eager, however, I expect a new post from Iecerint very soon to help us read his role and not only his mood.

This earlier post indicates that he was aware that I did not have my PM during the relevant time.

So that's why I only indicated that SV was misrepresenting rather than going further before.

[Iecerint]

lol @ SV.

Unvote; Vote: SV

. That is scummy for the same reason that GiD's RVS rationale was scummy.

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I didn't say that the two actions are equally scummy. I said that they were scummy for the same reason. If I thought the actions were equally scummy, it would not be enough to supercede my Joh vote.

I agree that it is relatively likely that your circumstance was not a lie.

[Iecerint]

I agree with you -- I think his post would normally have been fine -- but you're maybe forgetting that I didn't have my role PM at that time. So the question of whether the change "made me scummy" was not a meaningful question to ask.

Unless he either had acute. selective amnesia or was arguing that I was trying to buddy with Jack early on "just in case," something was up. The only reason this isn't a doubleplus huge deal (i.e. that SV maybe beats it) is that it would appear to be a significant miscalculation on his part. It's not as if I wouldn't notice. But poor scum play does not town play make.

I agree with Plum about SV's voting style. I think players should always try to have votes down to help town do rereads late game.

[Iecerint]

MOAR SHADOW DANCERS AND JOHO PLZ. (Other people are allowed, too.)

I am very disappointed that no one is fascinated by my chat with Jackie. I will try to be more entertaining next time.

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

@ Joh,

I think the "unintelligible" line will make since if you take your last two lines as referring to me. (I now know they weren't intended that way.)

When you say you "disagree" with my comment about SD's post, what specifically do you disagree with? For example, do you think that SD is scummy, or do you think that his tone wasn't how I described it? Or do you disagree with the notion that language competence should be something of concern (since you say you're commenting "On The Language Issue")?

I'd already read the first part of the game out of personal interest ahead of time, so I knew who my RVS vote was going to be and why one way or the other. So I don't think I would have been playing against my win condition either way. Even if GiD had turned up as my scumfriend, as I've indicated, I habitually distance early game, so it would have been as good a time as any.

Either way, I wouldn't have started posting had the Mod not indicated that my replacement was official.

The SV thing is not "saying 20 instead of 12." It's how he claimed he intentionally said 20 knowing it was 12. I have a hard time believing that.

@ MG

1. GiD did not explicitly indicate that his vote was for pressure. That's just how Jack interpreted it.

2. Why is "more discussion won't change anything no matter what?" scummy rhetoric? (Reminder for skimmers: that's that "continuing the present discussion with Jack won't affect my read on him, so I want to hear commentary from others at this juncture.)

3. All aspects of your argument against SV (AFAIK) were first pointed-out by me. And you think they're good enough that you're voting SV. But you think I'm scum. So...does that bother you? XD

(4. I only have one completed scumgame on the site, so I'm not in a position to be manipulative in the way you intimate.)

[Iecerint]

I believe SD has entered prod abuse range.

[Iecerint]

Jack, you've implied that the scum game you posted may not have been representative. Was the town game you posted similarly subversive in some way?

[Iecerint]

That's what I was grinning about when I gave him those links. Go ahead Vas, look through the game where I lurked massively as scum and compare it to this one

Earlier on this page. He only explicitly indicated that the scum game was misleading.

[Iecerint]

Vas, I wasn't asking that question because I was suspicious of Jack's stating it; rather, I was trying to determine how to interpret your evaluation that this matches Jack's town meta. Had Jack said: "Well, the town one is fine," that would have been lovely.

I've already indicated why I thought SD had English as his second language -- case/number grammatical errors, short sentences, unusual use of mood. It was my first impression upon reading the post where he voted SB. (Why don't you make those errors? XD)

O.o @ wanting to give away who won the vote. Why did that cross your mind?

Pity about SV's V/LA.

[Iecerint]

Why would scum be more likely to lie about the reason (SV's hyperbole crap), than town?

Who is more likely to come up with a dubious excuse for an action that has received scrutiny: town or scum?

It's true that lying about it is poor play, regardless of alignment, but I think it is more likely to be poor scum play than poor town play.

You describe his move as "hyperbole crap." Does that mean you think he's lying, too?

I didn't agree with you on Shadow Dancer sounding brusque, I thought that his question was precise and to the point.

That is the definition of brusque, so I guess we don't disagree, after all. The nuance is that "brusque" implies "disproportionately confrontational."

[Iecerint]

That's the second time someone's asked for it, so I'll do it. Points against SD:

1. He dicevoted. Scum would be more likely to dicevote to make their RVS harder to interpret. But this fits his meta. Anti-town/null here IMO.
2. He voted you in his subsequent post. Jack thinks that was scummy because your vote for me was just RVS. I think it was fine because Jack had just asked SD to make a diceless vote. I think this is a weak tell at best.
3. His tone when he voted you was off. Scum are more likely to have "off" tone. But it's probably because English is his second language. Null.

That is it AFAIK.

[Iecerint]

I have totally been misremembering that GiD post since before the interaction with Jack. My bad.

I don't take any notes at all. I remembered the other because I have already addressed those issues at length.

[Iecerint]

Ya. Keep in mind that I'm not really a neutral party. I had hoped someone who isn't Jack or me would do it. <_<

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I now have a second, more recent scumgame on the site. I think I played it differently from the other, so it might give another impression.

Fables Grimmafia

[Iecerint]

Post 41 - Iecerint - Isn't this akin to mind reading? How are you so sure greenindirt voted because of Reason Y?

Intuition. (I'm not "so sure." It was an RVS vote.)

Post 58 - Iecerint - Does not get that phased by "doesn't matter anymore" part of the previous post. Does not vote greenindirt nor SV in this post. Wouldn't be entirely surprised if there's a scum linkages amongst SV, greenindit and Iecerint

Post 61 - Iecerint - So he did notice the "doesn't matter anymore" part. Still suprised that nobody has taken SV's case here. Vas makes a mention that SV is scum in earlier post. Does not follow up with a vote. First person to vote for SV is probably town.

Why would I vote GiD or SV when I was busy voting Joh? Also, what would be the hypothetical relevance of having missed the "doesn't matter anymore" part be?

Post 109/110 - I don't like Iecerint's defensiveness on why he did not vote SV followed by a vote. ( If SV = Scum --> Iecerint = Scum)

IIRC, you're misreading 109. The correct way to read 109 is that Joh did the same thing as SV, so, to the extent that SV deserves pressure for it, Joh does, too. Then I went into detail about Joh's posts. I find it a little odd that you would apparently get a negative gut from this post, given that you seem to have analogous reservations about Joh.

I didn't see SV's "HYPERBOLE GUYS" post until after 109, so that's why I didn't vote him until post 110. That put him beyond Joh.

[Iecerint]

I got a big paragraph!

Talks a lot and tries to be everywhere at once.

Since when is high activity a scumtell?

Is kind of buddying up with Jack in their rapid conversation on page 4 and 5. (but that isn’t solely of his making, Jack was part of it too)/

Where do you get the buddying vibes? My recollection of the exchange is that we yelled for a bit, and then I told him to STFU because he was just going to give me a stronger scum read on him. Not reminiscent of buddying IMO.

I’m also a bit disturbed by his play style mentioned in post post 122.

To clarify for everyone, the "playstyle" his post 122 mentions is the fact that I made a few posts before I officially had my role PM. He argued that doing this indicated a "playing it safe" playstyle in the event that I received a scum PM. Worth pointing out because that wouldn't have been my first guess as I read that bit. Also worth pointing out because it transparently has nothing to do with my alignment in this game.

His misinformation called upon in post 153 and his grasping at straws (Attacking SD’s tone in post 75 and the 12/20 debacle he fuels with a vote in post 110) doesn’t sit very well.

I never "attacked" SD's tone. In fact, I did the opposite of that. My point was that English is his second language, so analysis based on his tone is not reliable.

lol @ "12/20 debacle."

I agree with you about ooba, though. Especially now that you've posted again, I'd really like him to post more content.

[Iecerint]

If we know who has the token and the person is luckily Poseidon, we can win faster.

LOLWAT. You were going to ask the apparent vote-winner whether s/he was Poseidon? XDXD

Scum are reasonably likely to lie about their vote, anyway. Was a bad idea at best.

Jack, do you think my summary of the case on SD was inaccurate or misleading? If so, why haven't you offered SB a more balanced take on the issue?

[Iecerint]

@ GiD, it's true that I didn't 100% know his second-language status ahead of time. Had I known it, I would have stated it instead of asking him. I don't blame you for getting excited about my failure to use subjunctive mood, but that's really all it indicates.

Either way, JJH's framing of my take on SD's tone is wildly incorrect.

[Iecerint]

SD, I think that last quote should be VVD rather than JJH.

I do not have analogous reservations about Joh.

My mistake.

Post 147 - Johoonhno - Not much content - "Trying to appear active" post.

I misread this as "Trying to appear active post

s

" before, so I thought it was a comment on Joh's play in general.

[Iecerint]

What caught my attention right now is the argument between Jack and Iec about my case.

I was a bit sceptical about what seemed to be a buddying attempt by Iec.
However, for the most part he seemed not to defend me but himself against Jack's accusations, that obviously emerged from Iec's assumption that English is not my mother tongue.

And he is right about that, english is my 2nd language.

So that makes him rather a good observer than a suspect.

I get a townish impression from Jack as well. Though he seemed a little bit too focussed on Iec at first (which can happen with only those 2 players generating most of the posts at that time) all his hitherto actions seem like legitimate scumhunting to me.

[Iecerint]

For once, he attacked SD, but when Iec posted the lame case against him he didn't say a word about it.

Never in my life, except before knowing the /diceroll was standard SD, have I posted a case against SD. Are you confusing SD with SV, or did I type the wrong thing somewhere? I ask because JJH apparently made the same error.

I agree with the case on VV. I'm staying on SV atm.

SB played pretty similar to this in my only other game with her (OpenSource) IMO. She was town there.

[Iecerint]

Oh, OK. I think I see what you meant.

What I thought you meant:
VV: OMG SD IS SCUM-E
Iec: INORITE. BLAHBLAHBLAH HYPOTHETICAL CRAP CASE AGAINST SD.
VV: *hands off once the wagons rolls*

What you really meant:
VV: SD IS SCUM-E.
*time passes*
SB: WTF WHY IS SD SCUM
Iec: THIS IS IT AFAIK.
SB: LOL CRAP CASE.
VV: *smiles nervously*

Do I have that right?

[Iecerint]

VV, you can refer to the game in question to see that SB was a lurker who periodically made well-reasoned posts. That's what her play seems like this game IMO.

What is hypocritical about her post? You claim that it was hypocritical, but I don't think you ever indicate why it qualifies as such.

[Iecerint]

You should already have a link to OpenSource. I gave it to you awhile ago when you requested meta from Jack and me. It's the same game.

Also, that is nice, but it doesn't address why her playstyle is hypocritical.

[Iecerint]

]If it is weak, it is mostly due to the lack of contribution by yours truly. Lurkerscum cases are always like that. Always.

O.o

[Iecerint]

What makes her vote for you opportunistic? It's not as if she voted you just as rhetoric against you had begun to increase. Or that's not my perception.

The only way her vote against you could be "opportunistic" is if SV is her scumfriend, in which case we should vote SV, anyway.

[Iecerint]

(NB: I don't think her vote is opportunistic either way. I'm just taking townVV's perspective.)

[Iecerint]

So your argument is that voting for someone people find suspicious is scummy? Even when you offer new reasons for that person being scummy, as SB did?

I don't buy it. For one thing, as I've stated, there's been more rhetoric against SV than you, anyway, so, even if we accept your argument, SB's "opportunistic" move would have been to vote SV. For her vote on you to have been opportunistic, she would have to be scumfriends with SV, so that would be where your scumwand would drive you.

[Iecerint]

For once, he attacked SD, but when Iec posted the lame case against him he didn't say a word about it. Then, what's the pressure on SD then? Fake scumhunting? Second, his suggestion about the voting thing seems like a weak rolefishing. Third, his benchsitting.

The first point (and the focus) is 100% new AFAIK. I suppose you could argue that I just used similar rhetoric against Jack a bit ago, but certainly no one had applied it to you.

[Iecerint]

I'm not sure what to think of Vas right now. He seems to come from another site or something just from the way he posts. That is one of the hardest things to read in all of mafia in my opinion. I have to agree with Jack though that the fact that Vas got right to the metas and read them is a slight town tell.

Assuming he did in fact read them both. He apparently didn't read mine very carefully, because he'd totally forgotten about a game called "OpenSource mafia" by the time I indicated that he could find SB's towngame there.

I think Iec is trying to make a point that isn't there about Shattered's so-called lie/hyperbole. Looks like it's just an easy thing to latch onto and he's pushing it as much as he can.

So, other than seeing this rhetoric in Joh's post a bit ago ("12/20 DEBACLE"), where do you get this impression? After I voted SV for it, I just brought it up again when players (e.g. Joh) appeared to misunderstand why it was a scumtell IIRC. Also, this was a widely-endorsed scumtell, so I dunno why you associate it with me specifically.

[Iecerint]

I'm putting off studying for an exam. You're an enabler.

You making a case against me rings no bells, even when I went back to those pages. I see Jack saying me-SD are scumpartners, but it wasn't elaborated, was quickly dismissed and it wasn't brought into the discussion again.

Is this directed at me? I don't recall claiming having made a case against you. What are you talking about?

True, that is new. But its terribly outdated and is just bad flavor. It's the cherry on top of a badly made cake. I might be paranoid, but my scumdar rose to a whole notha level on SB's vote. Mind you, my scumdar did not ping on her vote itself. But rather, it pinged when I checked her ISO in this game. Hypocrisy+Opportunism, yeah.

1. So the point that you didn't correct me when I summarized the case on SD is bad because you never liked your case on SD that much to begin with? (So far so good?) Have you made any cases this game that you still like, other than the one resulting from someone voting you (even if indirectly, as you claim)?

2. Maybe I'm paranoid, but he seems to be working overtime to fit Jack's townParadigm. O.o

[Iecerint]

Side-Note: I've gotten sketchy vibes from a couple of people who have posted "suspicion!" against me. This is a good sign, because it indicates that at least one player with scrutiny comparable to me is likely scum. This keeps me happy with an SV vote for now.

[Iecerint]

1. I misunderstood that sentence, too. That's not what she meant. She meant: "For one,

VV

attacked SD, but when Iec posted the lame case against

SD

(i.e. that summary case I posted when she requested it),

VV

didn't say a word about it." In other words, it was scummy that you didn't correct me for making your case look bad, perhaps because you knew the case wasn't very good to begin with, and you didn't want to be tied to it if you could help it (maybe because Jack was also associated with it and might suffer from said association in your place).

2. The sentence you didn't understand was about the above, so maybe it will make sense now. To restate, I was confirming that you were saying that (1) wasn't valid because you didn't actually like your case against SD, anyway. In other words, that you didn't take issue with my restatement of the case on SD because you agreed that it was a lame case.

My follow-up question was whether OTHER things you have said remain compelling to you, and you've said no apart from the SB business.

[Iecerint]

Pronoun disaster.

[Iecerint]

k, that's decent. The SD point is still lame, though, unless you're arguing that my point that the perceived point on SD probably had no point is what had no point. ^^;

[Iecerint]

Meh, I'm telling all of you, VV is scum.

Stop doing whatever you're doing and vote for him. Gogogo

Another "I'm still here" post? You are so town.

I giggled a little.

[Iecerint]

More paranoia @ that -- is he deliberately miming the rhetoric I used during my chat with Jack?

[Iecerint]

You mimicked Jack's claimed "towntell" so he would get a townread on you, and you mimicked my prior rhetoric with Jack because it resulted in no wagon building up on me.

Or those were both a coincidence. Which isn't totally out of the question, but ye know.

[Iecerint]

So, I was going to make a post here, but I pretty much agree with Plum. I could get behind lynching SV, VV, or Joh at this point. I think I prefer SV or VV because my read on them isn't tainted by OMGUS.

[Iecerint]

If anyone here would understand 'slips' its me because people accuse of that far too often. (Due to my language problem).

Your English is extremely good. It's fair enough that you may not personally pick up on certain slips given that English isn't your first language, though.

I want Jack to come and play with me.

[Iecerint]

If you recall the post, I pointed out that I would summarize it because SB was the second person to request a summary of the case; no one else had picked up the baton. Better me than no one. So that's why I summarized it even though I didn't suspect SD.

I also pointed out for the reader's benefit that I hadn't thought much of said case, so I wasn't an impartial framer of the case. That's why I don't think my summary/defense was misleading.

In addition to "subtle mode," I also have "friendly mode." I can switch to that if it will help you cope.

[Iecerint]

If you knew I pointed it out, why did you just say you thought it was weird that I summarized the case for SB?

My perception was that the language issue was creating problems, so I stepped in. Will not address this issue again.

[Iecerint]

SV is correct that Plum is an active, competent player. My experience with her is Twilight mafia and Kingdom Hearts mafia. It seemed really weird that he focused on her like that, though.

I'd actually rather hear Plum summarize what makes you scummy, since I don't think she's ever done that. To answer your more immediate question, my 224 indicates that I acknowledge a consistent narrative for your views, but that doesn't mean I've necessarily switched sides of the fence.

[Iecerint]

ooba, who was the second suspicious one? Do you at all find it troubling that VV's interpretation of SB's meta changed?

I think VV is scum. I'd maybe possibly probably rather lynch SV.

[Iecerint]

Because I think that SV is scummier than you. Barely. But I vacillate.

[Iecerint]

What about Plum and Joh? And anyone else not on the radar?

[Iecerint]

SD, I think Plum is mostly less than I've seen her post in most games, but I definitely think there are better suspects.

I really doubt Vas is over there requesting metas knowing that it will make him look town, and then not reading them.

So, I guess only town ever requests meta? YOU HAVE FOUND AN AMAZING TOWNTELL!

I wasn't "pushing" SV's lie/hyperbole much more than anyone else in the town. The only player who had mentioned that prior/had your perception AFAIK is Joh. This looks like a FF-Joh connection to me, or else you just found Joh's rhetoric persuasive without reading the thread very carefully.

Some people suspect me and I get decent vibes. Some people suspect me and I do not. I don't necessarily expect that rhetoric to convince you, but it's there for what it's worth.

I think FF is unlikely to be scum with SV. More likely to be scum with Joh or VV.

[Iecerint]

Alma, is VV's behavior normative as town on any other sites? I've noticed what you're talking about and think he's one of the best lynches, but that's in the back of my head.

(VV, would you claim that the way Alma perceives your behavior is normative for any other mafia sites you might play on?)

I think it's worth reading the part where VV flip-flops on SB. I think it made him look worse; some players thought it made him look better. Probably the most content-rich aspect of his play so far.

I almost asked you what you thought of SV, but then I realized that you sort of are SV. ^^;

[Iecerint]

Yeah. I get the impression that VV might play on other sites (joindate + familiarity with terminology IIRC, maybe he even mentioned it), so I didn't know whether the culture might be different on the sites he's used to. For example, maybe there are gillions of PRs, so they're less prone to take D1 minitells seriously.

[Iecerint]

There's no softclaim in that post. I don't know what you think you see, but it isn't there. You come off slightly scummy/anti-town for hunting for it and publicizing a perceived softclaim, though. (Jack, please let me know if you had perceived something similar.)

Low activity is traditionally the scumtell, not high activity. A player's ESL status is not irrelevant to reading him.

The diceroll is null because Jack found evidence that SD always dicerolls. So it has nothing to do with his alignment.

You're using "poisoning the well" incorrectly. Poisoning the well is if Jack says that he has a comeback post and I preempt it by saying IGNORE HIM; HE IS SCUM. What I did is explain to Jack that further discussion with him was unlikely to change my personal read of him in a positive way, so it was unlikely to change it in any way, so I would stop.

[Iecerint]

(EBWOP: To be clear, I figured out what you thought you saw after starting to write the post.)

[Iecerint]

I was just telling Jack the truth. He was welcome to keep going and alter everyone else's read of him as he pleased, and I made no claims to how their read on him would be modulated.

Anyway, the logical fallacy you name is less important than the rhetoric you're talking about. And in this case, that rhetoric was just an honest explanation of circumstances from my own personal perspective.

[Iecerint]

Mindgamer and ooba are the same player slot.

[Iecerint]

FF called SV likely town without trying to derail the wagon. That is the opposite of what I would expect scumFF to do for scumSVAlma.

It doesn't mean that FF isn't scum, but it means that he's unlikely to be scum with one of my top suspects (SVAlma).

Andrius...are you confusing SD and SV in your post? How is SD worse than SV with regard to posting, and why is Alma going to change that?

[Iecerint]

So...you think that SD is more suspicious than SV because he posts more? I don't understand.

[Iecerint]

Well, Alma makes me uncomfortable, but I don't think he's scum with FF, who also gives me the creeps (but less). So I'm going to

Unvote; Vote: VasudeVa

. L-2.

4 days to deadline. Even though it's not yet L-1, I would personally support a claim from VV at this point.

[Iecerint]

(For those playing at home: last quote should be Joh's.)

[Iecerint]

Actually, I do have a tendency to distance analogous to that as scum, but he's not right this time. Also, it's not true that Joh was never my top suspect. He was my top suspect from iso 8 to like 32 or so (when SV claimed he was using hyperbole). I just checked.

[Iecerint]

^ So...which wagons are you terming "crapwagons"?

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote Almaster

... <_<

[Iecerint]

ooba, your mistake is that you're currently voting Joh. Fix it if you like.

[Iecerint]

If you think Jack is chainsawing you to protect VV, why do you think it's troubling that he frames the vote as between one of the two of you?

[Iecerint]

Ares is a total douche in Greek mythology. He's portrayed as stupid and mean. It would make sense that he would be scum. His Roman version is quite a bit nicer and more respectable, though.

Moreover, does anyone play God of War? It would not surprise me if the Mod's interest in the flavor were partially predicated by interest in said game. Ares is the villain in that game, though I haven't played it myself and so can't make judgments about whether Hades has made an appearance. [/flavor outguess]

On the other hand, it's not proper play to lynch a claimed vig. That's the kind of role that scum will take out on their own without outside assistance.

[Iecerint]

More flavor speculation: twelve players in this game and the flavor would seem to map on pretty well to the eleven surviving Olympians + Hades as player slots. This would imply that the scum may be fakeclaimless.

On the other hand, there're some different canons for the 12 (Hestia, Hephaestus, Herackles, Dionysus, and Asclepius are variously sometimes included), which could possibly maybe account for scum having been given fakeclaims.

[Iecerint]

If I were townAlma superkiller, I'd sooner take a random shot than self-kill. Just sayin.

FF, nothing would make me happier than to see VV claim one of the sketchy Olympians.

Alma, is your SuperKill RB-proof AND Doc-proof, or just one of those?

[Iecerint]

Actually, Alma, scratch that question. I figured out how it would work for myself.

I think it's very unlikely that Ares is a fakeclaim. It would be a mean fakeclaim. If he is scum, he is probably Arescum.

Unvote

. I support VV's claim.

[Iecerint]

I support an Alma lynch. I want to wait a bit on the off-chance that VV is fakeclaimless fakeclaiming Hades. But I'm inclined to believe the claim, if only because Aphrodite has a neat name and I would never reduce her to fakeclaim-only status. [/outguess]

[Iecerint]

Please hold before lynching Al ..

O.o

[Iecerint]

Something has just occurred to me that affects the plausibility of one of the two claims. I'll wait until ooba shares his information with the class.

[Iecerint]

Counters can be taken from players by lynching or Night Killing and will always remain in the game. The person whom hammers on a lynch receives any counters the lynched had. If a person is night killed, then any counters they have go to whomever killed that person.

VV's claimed special power would appear to be beyond the scope of the rules as they are currently written. Doesn't make the ability impossible -- the counter may just distribute itself randomly in this kind of scenario, or tokens might supersede special powers or whatever to prevent this -- but the rules weakly imply that bomb mechanics are absent.

This is not enough for me to prefer lynching VV to Alma on its own, though. I want ooba to follow up on his post.

[Iecerint]

ooba, if your own ability is generic, why did you think Alma's Ares claim fit on the previous page?

VV, is your claim that the hammerer's death is from "madness" based on flavor for the ability, or your own extrapolation?

[Iecerint]

hahahaha

ooba, your double post shows a bit of the editing you did. Why did you cut out " Going back to read who else is a good lynch candidate. "?

~Oops... I am so sorry. I deleted that post thinking it was a double post. I did not notice it was edited. Just confirming that that post did exist.~

Oh, wow, I didn't see this. This makes me want to drop both and lynch ooba, even though 3 D1 claims happening really makes my stomach lurch.

[Iecerint]

Nah, nevermind. Superscumkiller Alma is probably a better lynch innit.

According to the rules, we get a free 24 hours to discuss things after the lynch, but let's make sure everyone has an opportunity to counterclaim Ares and/or Aphrodite first. I think just Andrius has yet to post after the claims, but I'm not sure.

[Iecerint]

OK, that part makes sense.

Why would you be willing to be lynched? That sounds a little extreme? O.o

(You don't necessarily have to answer that.)

[Iecerint]

You want to hammer Alma? Or VV? Or everyone?

[Iecerint]

^ I don't think scum win by acquiring tokens. Or we don't necessarily know that, at least.

[Iecerint]

Keep in mind that VV is an ESL player. Analyzing how he uses the word "apparently" may not be as fruitful as otherwise. But it's a valid point.

The only playerslot that 100% has to fakeclaim is Hades. Other Olympians, even "scummy" ones like Ares, could conceivably be town. If Hades has no mod-derived fakeclaim, it is plausible that his attempted fakeclaim might be CC-able. I don't expect that to be the case, but it was still worth it just in case.

False. If you hammer Vas, and you are killed due to his superpower, the counter would go to you, the hammerer. But since you died, it would go to a random person right?
@ MOD: Am I correct with this? ^

~No.~

It's sort of interesting that the Mod negatively confirmed this.

Mod, could we have clarification on mechanics given that a token-holding bomb is hammered? Where does the token go?

[Iecerint]

If such an ability existed, the easiest non-random way to solve it is to give the counter to the second-last voter on the lynch.

/wristslap

[Iecerint]

Since this can has already been opened and is consequently unlikely to be useful later on, I don't see any harm in participating.

My

Power

section is similar to what ooba is describing.

[Iecerint]

@ LC, I think I posted the same thing as ooba a bit before him re: tokens. I don't think it's unreasonable to come to that conclusion as town.

The scummiest thing about ooba is the edit in the doublepost that Jack picked up on IMO. The kind of edit Jack described is the kind of edit I would make as scum.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: But if the Power flavor thing with Aphrodite pans out, VV beats that IMO.

[Iecerint]

^ Deadline is tomorrow at 10. I'm assuming CST since the Mod lists his location as Texas.

[Iecerint]

What it says in the power section is irrelevant. Vas never claimed that it said that in the power section.

Aphrodite, Goddess of Love.
Role: Cop. I can seduce anyone and reveal their alignment.
Super Power: Whoever hammers me dies(From madness, apparently. Coz I'm all pretty-like).

Gotta say, Jack, I'm a little thrown off by your certainty on VV. His syntax, namely, seems to imply that he was paraphrasing the

Power

information with the "Role:" bit.

[Iecerint]

Jack, yeah, his "apparently" thing was off-the-wall, and his bit in 425 is similarly bizarre. I also totally get the creeps that FF started out as wishy-washy and then supported ooba's proposition after Alma and I endorsed flavorgate. But even though ooba is kinda suspicious in some ways, I've gotta give him credit where it's due. <_<

I also find it hard to believe that ooba, FF, and Alma are ALL scum. Too much teaparty too soon.

[Iecerint]

To be honest, I'm somewhat annoyed you didn't address the flavor issue. Ignoring obvious issues like that... <_<

VV, if you survive D1 and are town, do

not

target SD. I will deal with him.

[Iecerint]

NB: It seems like VV's plan doesn't work if at least one of VV and Alma is scum. Possible PoV problems.

[Iecerint]

I think we should lynch VV and have ooba hammer. This effectively gives town an extra lynch. Then Alma should unstoppable vig accordingly.

This also forces scum to take out VV via a lynch rather than via an NK, since the claimed bomb effect works only through lynches.

WCS is if both VV and ooba are town, but that still removes players who would've been under scrutiny.

[Iecerint]

Your gambit only works if you and Alma are both town. I don't think you and Alma are both town. I think the players least likely to be town are you and ooba, though not both of you. So having him hammer you maximizes the chance of scum dying IMO. If you're scum, only scum dies. If you're town, oobaProbablescum dies, so it's still not a total loss.

DN will give us a one day extension if we ask nicely IIRC.

Yes, please

.

[Iecerint]

@ Jack

, my only hesitations with wanting to lynch VV are that a) some of the VVwagoners seem a little opportunistic and b) cop claim without counterclaim. I think VV is lying, so I want to lynch him; having a scummy player hammer him will give us some collateral if we're wrong -- and IF I'm wrong, it seems likely that either Alma or ooba is scum. It's true that VV and ooba are unlikely to both be scum, but I would be surprised if they were both town.

You don't have to bank on scum PRs being different to suspect VV's claim. You just have to bank on VV messing up. In fact, Alma's prior claim means that that's ALL you have to bank on, since scumVV would know Alma was town, unless they were scumfriends.

[Iecerint]

VV, if you survive D1 and are town, do

not

target SD. I will deal with him.

Wait, what are you trying to say here? Protecting your scumbuddy, or something else entirely?

...

Are you TRYING to be scummy? O.o

[Iecerint]

^ Hmm? Does your

Power

have flavor?

[Iecerint]

^ Stop rolefishing. It is very unattractive.

Unvote; Vote: VV

. This should put VV at L-1.

[Iecerint]

Why are you so sure he'll be killed? And why is it at all plausible that he wouldn't know that already?

[Iecerint]

Alma, my prior advise to VV applies.

[Iecerint]

Yeah. That was literally 13 days ago, too.

Great time to return. ^^

[Iecerint]

We can take advantage of 24 hours of post-lynch daytalk.

Did VV just misunderstand his special...?

[Iecerint]

Alma, please claim your target and the outcome.

[Iecerint]

Alma, did you normal-kill or super-kill? Did those abilities have associated flavor? I suppose we should have asked you that yesterday...

ooba, are you confirming that he had a "kill" ability, or that he had a "vig" ability? Is that a reflection of his Normal or Special ability, or both?

[Iecerint]

Maybe in a bit. Not right now, unless you have a good reason for wanting it right now.

In the short term, I'm waiting to see if (namely) anyone claims a successful RB N1.

[Iecerint]

I want FF and JJH to come play. Plum, too. Do they know the day is back?

[Iecerint]

^ By the same token, vigging quiet players doesn't get you anything, whereas vigging loud and polarizing players does. I think you're also analogizing vig with either lynching of investigating depending upon where it best supports your position (i.e. rather than because a given analogy is most sound).

[Iecerint]

Thread needs input from these players:

Flava Flav
Plum
Lord_Chronos
Andy

LC has posted, but it sort of doesn't count innit.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. I can sorta buy the above. I didn't like his shot on Precision mafia because he killed one of my only town reads, but it's true that he got some criticism from his use of his ability there.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. Why Andrius over FF (or LC)?

[Iecerint]

I don't think a massclaim is necessary at this point. Individual players are welcome to use their best judgment.

[Iecerint]

Will give them after Plum responds and FF and LC post.

[Iecerint]

Day 2 has been skipped and Night 2 is now in progress. Please resubmit actions again.

Killing actions will not be valid this night phase.

^ This is why there were no kills N2. As for only 1 kill N1, I'm not sure.

[Iecerint]

So, Plum posted lots yesterday in spite of the question already being out there for all of it. Don't see a point in waiting more.

Confirm on 118. Crumb, too. Also, the advice in 118 stands @ Alma.

Vote: Plum

. My next-favorite suspects are FF and LC. Joh is 4th. This has been determined largely by PoE and link-construction.

[Iecerint]

My mistake there; I was referring to my iso 118. It's the one you asked me about.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. Why Andrius over FF (or LC)?

[Iecerint]

Yeah, I just glanced over your iso, and I suppose that's consistent with your prior perspective. Your actual votepost isn't so great, though.

[Iecerint]

We're not lynching Alma. We're lynching someone on my list.

Plum is my preferred choice. Indicate your preferred choice if you prefer someone on my list other than Plum.

[Iecerint]

OK. That doesn't hurt my feelings.

Unvote; Vote: Flava Flav

.

I suppose there's no harm in claiming the bit regarding Alma. The D2-skip let me investigate him; "town" results. It's possible that he's an investi-proof SK or Hades GF (with lolAres fakeclaim), but I don't think he's the preferred lynch. If he's an SK, I imagine he'll be willing to target within a narrow set of choices to prove that he's not, in which case scum will deal with him. The Hades GF angle is a wrench, but it's nonetheless not a possibility worth lynching him over IMO.

Knowing that my role had Cop-lite abilities associated with it is part of what made me skeptical of VV's claim.

[Iecerint]

I'm not claiming cop; I'm claiming that I could investigate Alma because of the extra night. I thought I could maneuver us into lynching someone else without claiming it, but, since I can't investigate again AFAIK, there's little benefit in doing it that way. So I went ahead and claimed it.

Part of the reason I focused on Plum is that she distanced from Almawagon (which, frankly, would've looked great to me under ordinary circumstances) while weakly attacking a player in ways unlikely to derail Almawagon. But her iso does indicate some prior Andy suspicion.

NB: Don't forget to take care of that.

[Iecerint]

I claimed that I investigated Alma N2 and can't really do so again. I don't see a reason to elaborate beyond that.

And good question.

[Iecerint]

Actually. I just thought of something that slightly raises the prior probability that Alma is Hades GF. Hmm. Will not elaborate.

But I don't think I'd be comfortable lynching him on that basis alone.

[Iecerint]

Ah, nevermind. I retract that. Back to not seriously considering the possibility.

[Iecerint]

It wasn't the ONLY reason for suspecting VV's claim. It was an EXTRA reason for suspecting VV's claim.

[Iecerint]

He is town, or he is investi-immune, or I was busdriven/redirected -- in that order of probability. SK/Hades GF are just the circumstances most likely to explain the investi-immune possibility.

[Iecerint]

You're not reading the whole sentence. Plum distancing from very-plausible-except-for-my-result Almawagon while pushing a case on you with weaker reasoning unlikely to trump the lack of a second kill N1 or Alma's bad vig choice. The result is that Alma is lynched and Plum looks town for being against it. This is different from 2TOWN4TOWN because she isn't *really* going against Almawagon; she perceives that it'll go without her, so she pretends to scumhunt elsewhere while letting it proceed to its natural conclusion.

Old Andy suspicion in her iso makes her behavior a little less suspicious, though.

[Iecerint]

No, silly. I targeted you and got an innocent. Given that, I thought Plum looked suspicious, but reading her iso made me reconsider.

[Iecerint]

I had put Jack into my town category for pushing strongly for Alma over VV, but, given that both players were apparently town, I guess I shouldn't be totally certain on that. Still, I think his scumhunting has been comparatively earnest, so he's not a serious suspect.

[Iecerint]

I'm pretty sure at least 2 of the scum are on my list. One of them is likely in {Plum, LC}.

[Iecerint]

Alma, how would you characterize the ability that replaced your old Normal ability? Do you have any hypotheses for how you came to have a new ability? Did the switch happen N1 or N2? Do you have any hypotheses for what made your ability change?

AFTER Alma responds: Did anyone else lose any abilities N1 or N2?

[Iecerint]

Given that you're not Hades GF/SK (and, accordingly, totally making it up), I think that is plausible.

In other news, I love that literally no one on my list wants to help lynch FF.

[Iecerint]

Has already been mentioned. This is what I already said:

I'm not claiming cop; I'm claiming that I could investigate Alma because of the extra night. I thought I could maneuver us into lynching someone else without claiming it, but, since I can't investigate again AFAIK, there's little benefit in doing it that way. So I went ahead and claimed it.

+Game had stalled for ages.

You make an OK point about Jack. He has me relatively convinced, though. I'd put him 5th after Joh.

[Iecerint]

If someone admits to being the cause of the ability switch on Alma's part, we would know (barring conspiracy) that he wasn't lying about that aspect of his role. We'd also know that town was more likely to have been behind it than otherwise (e.g. where "otherwise" is the case where no one claims it and Alma isn't lying).

[Iecerint]

@ Jack, using language like "given that Alma is town" is a way of implying that possibility IMO.

[Iecerint]

I am Jack. I am crotchety.

Do you think I'm a nice man, Jack?

[Iecerint]

I want him to answer Joh's question. It's not as if Joh asked him to claim or something.

[Iecerint]

Well, FF should certain claim before he's lynched, too. I guess he's already said his ability is crap, though.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I agree. I was disputing your "(I am not refering to a role claim, that is totally up to you)" bit.

[Iecerint]

I didn't reread you. I just expressed what I thought about you.

[Iecerint]

(Point being that you can share your feelings without rereading me.)

[Iecerint]

Sorta begs the question of why they apparently didn't, innit. ^^

No use hiding it now that you've gone so far as ask outright. Yeah, SD and I are alignment-confirmed masons.

[Iecerint]

Why do you think there are 2 scum teams of equal size as such? That seems highly bizarre, especially inasmuch as both scum kills would have to have been blocked given Almatown.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I missed your earlier post. I'd assumed that Poseidon was town.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. Both teams cross-killing the opposite GF is a little bit of a stretch. I guess there's also role-blocking and doctoring that may've come into play, but it's still probably lower-probability than one scumteam or AlmaGF (even if your setup is slightly more elegant). He could always have built-in hidden conditions where Poseidon can't start with the token or whatever.

Another possible problem with your theory is that Poseidon's team is at an a priori advantage, because Poseidon is less scummy than Hades via flavor.

I want other players to reflect on this possibility, though.

[Iecerint]

But assuming SD and Iec are masons is very weird. The fact that they are both majorly protecting alma is looking bad right now.

Huh x2? O.o

[Iecerint]

Because you were like OMG THERE IS CLEARLY A CXN BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU I CAN SEE IT and I was like Christ take a hint bro.

[Iecerint]

The post ooba was asking about is a crumb that would show that SD was town in the event that I flipped town:

T

o be honest, I'm somewhat annoyed you didn't address the flavor issue. Ign

o

ring

o

bvious issues like that... <_<

VV

, if you survive D1 and are town, do

not

target

SD

. I will deal with him.

Bold added, except on the "not." VV is a "W." Cute rite?

As for WE ARE MAYSUNS GAIZ-type crumbs, not so much. I thought I'd done enough of that inadvertently already. ^^;

[Iecerint]

Nah @ SD.

Use your best judgment @ LC.

Overkill usually results in double flavor on a kill ("exploded and sliced into bits") in theme games, but I suppose it depends on the Mod.

[Iecerint]

Looks like May 10th.

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Don't forget about that one thing, unless it's already taken care of.

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Hmm.

Unvote; Vote: JHH

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The utility of my breadcrumbing something that would only be useful given my flip as mafia or cult is near 0%. That kind of play would just out the rest of the Cult/mafia after the flip.

The odd/even business seems like theorizing into bizarro land to me. Yeah, it's possible, but it's in no way default.

[Iecerint]

So long as we're flavor-speculating, I could see someone like Demeter being paired with Hades, maybe because she's concerned about the welfare of her daughter. Not that Demeter is necessarily scum; just that I don't think it's impossible that Hades is a conventional scumlord GF.

[Iecerint]

I can confirm our result on Andy via SD. This is what he was asking if we should share a few posts ago. I wanted to hold off, because it was possible that all the Andy-targeters might be a bit more likely to be scum, and I wanted to see how far they would take it. That's another reason I voted Plum when I did. But hurrying things along is probably fine.

LC, is there any chance that you have sanity issues?

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LC is the one who investigated FF, not us. I think we'd probably lynch FF if not for LC's claim. On top of everything else, he just said his power could out scum, whereas he prior indicated that his power was "nothing special" IIRC. <_<

Ooba didn't quite claim Cop; he can see what players' abilities are. But I think he's pretty much cleared for hammering VV yesterday. The only way he could be scum is if he can target Normals and Supers as a day ability, and he did VV D1 and Alma D3.

[Iecerint]

Ooba hammered VV even though VV had (fake)claimed he was a bomb. I think town are more likely to make that kind of move than scum because town are unlikely to lie about that sort of thing, and scum would know that VV was town.

So, ooba's ability would have to be a day ability that let him see VV's Super ability and learn that it was not actually a bomb ability.

Speaking of that -- ooba, you know someone else's Normal, too, right? Don't reveal it or who, just whether. Apologies if you've already done that.

Come to think of it, I guess scumOoba could've thought that VV was lying and part of another scumteam, but that's still on the remote side of things IMO.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. Then how confident are you in FF's alignment being town barring shenanigans with your ability?

[Iecerint]

For example, are you a tracker and the basis of your "innocent" is that he didn't target anyone (low reliability), or are you a name-cop, and the basis of your "innocent" is that his role seems less likely to be aligned with scum (also low reliability)? Or what?

Given the number of investigations out there and the fact that your doc claim already makes you a decent night target, I'm inclined to believe that you should go ahead and specify the details. But use your judgment.

[Iecerint]

Whoa, I missed that Alma claimed implicitly that omni-vig wouldn't make him an NK target. O.o

[Iecerint]

Our investigations were tied to the extra night, so they're not likely to recur AFAIK.

I think insanity is unlikely, except maybe from someone like Hera. [/outguess] Bus drivers and GFs (and fakeclaimed results, maybe) are more likely to be the cause of false-negatives.

SD is 110% town.

Speaking of ooba's reveal, does anyone know anything about the franchise indicated ("Sacred Saga")?

[Iecerint]

Well, slightly more valuable since it comes from the Mod, though.

[Iecerint]

^ Nah, I dunno. Several of the Olympian Gods are on Athena's team, and she's the protagonist, and Hades and Poseidon are the antagonists. KIND OF LIKE OOBA'S HYPOTHESIZED VERSION OF THIS GAME.

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

I still love you, ooba. <3

[Iecerint]

The probability of oobascum is very very low. If ooba is scum, I congratulate him on his brilliant D1 gambit and on his win.

[Iecerint]

Yes.

There're probably some bus drivers (functional GFs) and GFs among the scum.

[Iecerint]

Actually, I just realized that two scumteams are more common than I prior thought they would be. Maybe some of us can only scumcheck certain scumteams? Just another possibility. [/outguess]

[Iecerint]

Oh, I didn't even have a picture in my PM, so I thought it might be a on-reveal-only thing. Too bad.

JHH gave me bad vibes yesterday, especially early yesterday. I share your feelings about LC and FF, though.

[Iecerint]

DN just send me an image with my role. He said he didn't send it before only because I replaced in. It's Sacred Saga-themed.

[Iecerint]

Ya. Just sayin.

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Eliminating "cleared" players yields this list:

Jack
Johoohno
LordChronos Bio Hazard
Plum

Removing LC, too, for helping explain the small number of kills N1 given Almatown yields:

Jack, JHH, Plum.

People have a town read on Plum for some reason I can't fathom; you'll have to ask them about that. I'm not sure about Jack, but he does appear to have put in an honest effort. That leaves you. Pushing this weird case on ooba isn't helping.

So, yeah, it's mostly PoE.

[Iecerint]

In a vacuum, I'd be just as happy lynching Plum as you. Hearing the opinions of players I believe to be town, I'm coming down on the side of wanting to lynch you.

[Iecerint]

I can confirm that we did that to him in KH mafia. His predecessors had claimed "minor character VT," so we tried to catch him claiming something outlandish. Slot was town.