mini 943- Greek Mythology! (And the winner is... ?)

[VasudeVa]

Meh, VV's attack is weak at best, based only on omgus because I put him on the spotlight.

And no, if you want games of mine, then search for them yourself. What makes you think I keep track of the links of my previous games?

If it is weak, it is mostly due to the lack of contribution by yours truly. Lurkerscum cases are always like that. Always.

How unreasonable of you to not provide your metas. The only reason I see for not wanting to provide them is because there is something in there that will work against you. Scum points for you. I will search for them. And if I see that you like being blatantly opportunistic(like you are now) with your votes as scum, you are going down.

[Iecerint]

]If it is weak, it is mostly due to the lack of contribution by yours truly. Lurkerscum cases are always like that. Always.

O.o

[VasudeVa]

Quick ISO study of her town game(Open Source Mafia, posted by Iec on page 4) reveals that she isn't that opportunistic as town. It is also interesting to point out that as town she doesn't explain her votes as town and it really looks like she is just wagoning.

However, that is just ISO. Unfortunately, I do not have time to read the rest right now. I will be reading the full game and be searching for her scum game once I get back. Once I do find it, and I do see patterns, it will cement her as scum. But right now, I see that my case holds water. If my meta study reveals even a few patterns, my case is bulletproof.

Unvote, Vote: Snow Bunny

[Iecerint]

What makes her vote for you opportunistic? It's not as if she voted you just as rhetoric against you had begun to increase. Or that's not my perception.

The only way her vote against you could be "opportunistic" is if SV is her scumfriend, in which case we should vote SV, anyway.

[Iecerint]

(NB: I don't think her vote is opportunistic either way. I'm just taking townVV's perspective.)

[VasudeVa]

Yes it was. At least three people(SD,ooba and JHH, IIRC) found me scummy for the reasons she stated. However, they chose to vote SV or someone else before me. It is as blatantly opportunistic as you can get. 3 or so people had cases ready against me, but had a stronger case on someone else. She saw that, and used the arguments they had to build a case on me.

Not gonna happen.

[Iecerint]

So your argument is that voting for someone people find suspicious is scummy? Even when you offer new reasons for that person being scummy, as SB did?

I don't buy it. For one thing, as I've stated, there's been more rhetoric against SV than you, anyway, so, even if we accept your argument, SB's "opportunistic" move would have been to vote SV. For her vote on you to have been opportunistic, she would have to be scumfriends with SV, so that would be where your scumwand would drive you.

[VasudeVa]

So your argument is that voting for someone people find suspicious is scummy? Even when you offer new reasons for that person being scummy, as SB did?

I don't buy it. For one thing, as I've stated, there's been more rhetoric against SV than you, anyway, so, even if we accept your argument, SB's "opportunistic" move would have been to vote SV. For her vote on you to have been opportunistic, she would have to be scumfriends with SV, so that would be where your scumwand would drive you.

I don't see new reasons of me being scummy in her vote post, no. All I see are various cases of thesaurusizing her other words. New content, none.

The main thing about her vote post is that it lacks any shred of doubt. And also the fact that she did not build that case herself. If you are going to have that much confidence on a case, then you should have worked on the case yourself rather than fixing up others. That is how I see it.

That second paragraph does make alot of sense though, but I'm seeing here that she is starting a wagon on me for her to get dibs on the first vote, the least scummy vote in votals as far as I'm concerned. SV scumbuddy is possible too.

[Iecerint]

For once, he attacked SD, but when Iec posted the lame case against him he didn't say a word about it. Then, what's the pressure on SD then? Fake scumhunting? Second, his suggestion about the voting thing seems like a weak rolefishing. Third, his benchsitting.

The first point (and the focus) is 100% new AFAIK. I suppose you could argue that I just used similar rhetoric against Jack a bit ago, but certainly no one had applied it to you.

[Flava Flave]

Sorry everyone, I'm putting a lot of my attention on Survivor in Mish Mash which means less of it goes here. I'll try to do better.

Let's see. Iec was right about Shadow's first language not being english. Not a tell on Iec either way. Not a proper reason to attack or defend Shadow. Basically it's null both ways.

I'm not sure what to think of Vas right now. He seems to come from another site or something just from the way he posts. That is one of the hardest things to read in all of mafia in my opinion. I have to agree with Jack though that the fact that Vas got right to the metas and read them is a slight town tell.

I think Iec is trying to make a point that isn't there about Shattered's so-called lie/hyperbole. Looks like it's just an easy thing to latch onto and he's pushing it as much as he can.

LordChronos, where is the framing attempt? I don't think I saw that. And to defend against your accusations, again, too much of my attention on mafiascum is going to Survivor.

So yeah, my top suspects right now are Plum and Iec.

[Iecerint]

I'm not sure what to think of Vas right now. He seems to come from another site or something just from the way he posts. That is one of the hardest things to read in all of mafia in my opinion. I have to agree with Jack though that the fact that Vas got right to the metas and read them is a slight town tell.

Assuming he did in fact read them both. He apparently didn't read mine very carefully, because he'd totally forgotten about a game called "OpenSource mafia" by the time I indicated that he could find SB's towngame there.

I think Iec is trying to make a point that isn't there about Shattered's so-called lie/hyperbole. Looks like it's just an easy thing to latch onto and he's pushing it as much as he can.

So, other than seeing this rhetoric in Joh's post a bit ago ("12/20 DEBACLE"), where do you get this impression? After I voted SV for it, I just brought it up again when players (e.g. Joh) appeared to misunderstand why it was a scumtell IIRC. Also, this was a widely-endorsed scumtell, so I dunno why you associate it with me specifically.

[VasudeVa]

Stop replying to my posts that quickly, you are making me lose more sleep than I should. XD.

I do not remember that. Yes, I made a lame case on SD but that was me trying to catch up to the game. You making a case against me rings no bells, even when I went back to those pages. I see Jack saying me-SD are scumpartners, but it wasn't elaborated, was quickly dismissed and it wasn't brought into the discussion again.

True, that is new. But its terribly outdated and is just bad flavor. It's the cherry on top of a badly made cake. I might be paranoid, but my scumdar rose to a whole notha level on SB's vote. Mind you, my scumdar did not ping on her vote itself. But rather, it pinged when I checked her ISO in this game. Hypocrisy+Opportunism, yeah.

@Flave
Not other site, but new to the game in general. I didn't want to bring out the newbie card(because it's cheap as hell to do so) but there you go. Why is it that people think I'm from other-sites anyway? I've been in three games, and in 2 of them(including this one), I have been asked the same question.

[Iecerint]

I'm putting off studying for an exam. You're an enabler.

You making a case against me rings no bells, even when I went back to those pages. I see Jack saying me-SD are scumpartners, but it wasn't elaborated, was quickly dismissed and it wasn't brought into the discussion again.

Is this directed at me? I don't recall claiming having made a case against you. What are you talking about?

True, that is new. But its terribly outdated and is just bad flavor. It's the cherry on top of a badly made cake. I might be paranoid, but my scumdar rose to a whole notha level on SB's vote. Mind you, my scumdar did not ping on her vote itself. But rather, it pinged when I checked her ISO in this game. Hypocrisy+Opportunism, yeah.

1. So the point that you didn't correct me when I summarized the case on SD is bad because you never liked your case on SD that much to begin with? (So far so good?) Have you made any cases this game that you still like, other than the one resulting from someone voting you (even if indirectly, as you claim)?

2. Maybe I'm paranoid, but he seems to be working overtime to fit Jack's townParadigm. O.o

[Iecerint]

Side-Note: I've gotten sketchy vibes from a couple of people who have posted "suspicion!" against me. This is a good sign, because it indicates that at least one player with scrutiny comparable to me is likely scum. This keeps me happy with an SV vote for now.

[VasudeVa]

I'm putting off studying for an exam. You're an enabler.

I'm putting off sleep because I can't sleep. I was thinking that inactivity will dumb my brain down, but no no noo

Is this directed at me? I don't recall claiming having made a case against you. What are you talking about?

SB said it right there in her post that you just quoted.

For once, he attacked SD, but when Iec posted the lame case against him he didn't say a word about it.

I know, I don't remember it either. Odd point.

1. So the point that you didn't correct me when I summarized the case on SD is bad because you never liked your case on SD that much to begin with? (So far so good?) Have you made any cases this game that you still like, other than the one resulting from someone voting you (even if indirectly, as you claim)?

Do not understand the first sentence. Drowsiness is taking over. And no, simply because I was playing impartial observer until now. Now I smell blood, and I will gather as much info as I can

2. Maybe I'm paranoid, but he seems to be working overtime to fit Jack's townParadigm. O.o

Paranoid. I'm not even reading the meta right now because I'm too drowsy to absorb them thoroughly. Be reading them when I have time.

Last post for the day. It's 9:30 in the fkng morning. And I have to wake up at 1pm. XD.

[Iecerint]

1. I misunderstood that sentence, too. That's not what she meant. She meant: "For one,

VV

attacked SD, but when Iec posted the lame case against

SD

(i.e. that summary case I posted when she requested it),

VV

didn't say a word about it." In other words, it was scummy that you didn't correct me for making your case look bad, perhaps because you knew the case wasn't very good to begin with, and you didn't want to be tied to it if you could help it (maybe because Jack was also associated with it and might suffer from said association in your place).

2. The sentence you didn't understand was about the above, so maybe it will make sense now. To restate, I was confirming that you were saying that (1) wasn't valid because you didn't actually like your case against SD, anyway. In other words, that you didn't take issue with my restatement of the case on SD because you agreed that it was a lame case.

My follow-up question was whether OTHER things you have said remain compelling to you, and you've said no apart from the SB business.

[Iecerint]

Pronoun disaster.

[greenindirt]

Alright, sorry but I have not been able to get my head into this game and it isn't fair to the players.

Mod, could I be replaced?

Sorry guys, have a good game.

[Snow_Bunny]

Ok class, listen well. Today we have a live example of how a scum acts when pressured. Take notes as needed, as this will be in the final test!

Well, VV, what can I say? You are saying that I'm opportunistic, yet I fail to see that. I'd be opportunistic if you already had a wagon on you. And, there's something wrong about all of that. You are trying to discredit me instead of defending yourself. What's that called again? I remember there's a term for that... Hmm...

[DeathNote]

~Andrius replaces greenindirt. Thanks Andrius!~

[LordChronos]

Welcome Andrius!

@FF

See post 52. So, basically you are saying that we should ignore that you are active lurking except to defend the major suspect at this point because you are devoting your time to another game?

I find it interesting that your two suspects are both attacking SV.

@VV

So you contend that a) no one can be confident in voting someone that other people suspect for similar reasons; b) that if anyone does this, even if you have no votes, it is opportunistic; and c) putting the first vote on a wagon is scummy because it seems not scummy?

Those don't really make sense at all.

[VasudeVa]

Alright. I've done a meta study on SB now. If you are as interested in metas as I am, I'll provide the links. I studied two samples of each of her town and her scum games: One win and one loss each. Mostly done in ISO. By all means, feel free to check my observations. Before you accuse me of reading metas to seem town, please I challenge you to read these in ISO as well. See if my obvservations match yours. I am quite objective in my meta studies.

Umineko- SB Scumgame, Won.
Dodgeball, Scum-Lost
British Comedy Mafia, Town, Lost
Open Source Mafia. Town, Won

My observations:
General Behavior:
-> Lurks, V/LA's alot
-> Prone to plagiarizing cases, but most probably due to her lurker nature.

As Scum:
-> She is very defensive. She seems to be over-defending herself if she is scum.
-> Long posts. Also, her scumhunt posts are long and detailed.
-> Tunnel visioned as hell. I do not see her questioning people and making sure of her suspicions.
-> Fewer "I'm still here!" posts. Every post has content.
-> Not opportunistic. Makes it so that her cases against people are as strong as she can make them.

As Town:
-> Provides metas.
-> Her defense as town is are more concise. Instead of replying to every point made by the opposition, she answers to them in a shorter fashion rather than by a point by point rebuttal seen in her scum game.
-> More "I'm still here!" posts.
-> Considerably less tunnel visioned than her scum game.

Conclusions:
She is being very consistent with her townie game. The only inconsistent thing I've seen was her unwillingness to provide her meta to me. But I can see why that happened. It was rather rude of me to accuse her that she is badscum.

If she was scum, her case on me would be bulletproof and angrier. But nah, the vote post she did was not as good as her vote posts as scum. She would also rebut my points against her in a post by post manner. Not in this game. As far as I'm concerened: She is town(until she gives me reason to think otherwise)

[VasudeVa]

Ack, forgot to unvote.

Unvote

[Johoohno]

I'm somewhat behind (have read till post 175) but will catch up during this weekend. However, I have a quick response to Iecerint's post 170:

Talks a lot and tries to be everywhere at once.

Since when is high activity a scumtell?

Depends on the context, but someone who tries to defend himself all the time is by my measure more likely to be scum than one who has some kind of screening process of what is valid and what is not, and also trusts his fellow townies of finding fabricated tells. Also, cluttering the thread might be a good way to hide away those fabrications, slips or accurate leads from others among a lot of fluff, walls of texts, or short remarks on irrelevant details.

Where do you get the buddying vibes?

I would love to hear everyone discuss their views of our discussion so far, ideally in the next 24 hours

Sounds as if you’re asking: “What do you all think of the scene we have created here, do you find it sincere or does it seem a bit staged?” After that comes post 86 where you seem to want to put a lid on further discussion just to have an easy way out of it.

That's ok Iec, I'm more interested in Vas right now

@ Jack

I was at first going to vote you outright for dropping me so quickly under the circumstances, but then I went back and read post 60.

I haven't dropped you by the way, I'm just shifting focus.

All these things together makes the entire discussion sound a bit staged with streaks of “nudge, nudge, buddy”

His misinformation called upon in post 153 and his grasping at straws (Attacking SD’s tone in post 75 and the 12/20 debacle he fuels with a vote in post 110) doesn’t sit very well.

I never "attacked" SD's tone.

“Attack” wasn’t perhaps the most precise choice of words by me, but I spoke of you grasping at straws, and what I meant is that you use small details to create something out of nothing, this one detail blew up to become quite the talk of the day, spreading over pages, but really has very little merit in my opinion.

@ mod:

Please prod Shattered Viewpoint.

[Iecerint]

k, that's decent. The SD point is still lame, though, unless you're arguing that my point that the perceived point on SD probably had no point is what had no point. ^^;