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[Ren Hoek]

There are two tracker abilities that are exactly the same?

[Ren Hoek]

What are the cons of PGO?

[Ren Hoek]

vote: Tracker

[Ren Hoek]

I'm not liking the "mostly random" caveat of scotmany's statement.

It's an active way avoid his choices being open to scrutiny. "Random" implies that there is no reason for his choices that we can question.

I believe that a player might feel the need to say this out loud if he's afraid his choice may betray that he's scum, under the light of scrutiny.

[Ren Hoek]

Ren: If you were in his position, what criteria would you use to dish out the abilities on day 1?

I would make an effort to draw people out. I would ask that we don't go too fast in order to have more info. I would be more pro-active.

We don't know how this game will play out. Maybe there will be information.

I would never, ever throw in the towel in my first post and declare, without any knowledge of how things will develop, that my choice will be random.

[Ren Hoek]

I would never, ever throw in the towel in my first post and declare, without any knowledge of how things will develop, that my choice will be random.

*

*

unless I was scum and wanted to hide the fact that my choice will be influenced by my being scum.

[Ren Hoek]

You guys confuse me with someone who can catch scum with the slightest slip. I am in no way trying to avoid scrutiny.

What?

All you have to do is find players that you find TOWNIE.

But then if we later find out that you give out powers to scum on Day 1, and the chances of you giving powers to scum at random are rather slim on Day 1, you can say: "It was random! It was random!"

And now you are preemptively adding the defense that you can't catch scum.

[Ren Hoek]

It's HIGHLY unlikely that any scum is going to let something slip during this phase [...]

It's highly LIKELY that scum would slip early, they often do.

You did.

For example.

[Ren Hoek]

I once made a random investigation as cop. Mhm. There are totally random decisions. Not lying.

You may, after having exhausted all your mental power and found yourself unable to decide.

It's the "announcement ahead of time" that's scummy.

[Ren Hoek]

Scottyscum giving powers to the scum would be a major drawback to the game, as we'd be wasting tracking results on players that will mislead us.

If scot is scum, and gives power to the scum, what power should we let him hand out? Just a theoretical mafia question.

[Ren Hoek]

Not only are you convinced that I am scum, for some reason you assume there is scum on the creative department, something that no one but scum would know about. Hmmmm.

A concern about scum in our accounting department was first brought up in our QT by Seraphim.

[Ren Hoek]

If we know he is scum, we lynch him and then replace him. We don't let him hand out powers.

We don't KNOW. But we may suspect.

[Ren Hoek]

If scot is scum then we should replace him right now.

I highly doubt he is. But this is not our choice, this is the CEO's

Please explain how you can say that you "HIGHLY DOUBT" that scot is scum. Evidence please for making such a definite statement.

I will point out now that crywolf is very concerned in the QT about Seraphim and myself overreacting to scotmany.

[Ren Hoek]

If we know he is scum, we lynch him and then replace him. We don't let him hand out powers.

We don't KNOW. But we may suspect.

You're acting like you know. . .

I'm VERY concerned with scot's announcement that his choice would be random, before he had any information about how much information he would have to base his choice on.

[Ren Hoek]

"Anyways, It's this early in the game I rather not put an allignment on someone." says crywolf.

ORLY.

But you just said in the QT that you'd rather lynch me than scotmany!

I'm looking for the answer to my question. My question is: "Please explain how you can say that you "HIGHLY DOUBT" that scot is scum. Evidence please for making such a definite statement. "

[Ren Hoek]

I can say my decision this day will no longer be basically random.

You better pick townies overwhelmingly. Your life depends on it.

[Ren Hoek]

In a somewhat related realization. I was unaware I had a quick topic(s) to post in until I looked at my role pm again. Upon realization that I can talk to members in my department, I can say my decision this day will no longer be basically random.

Why did you put an optional plural for to "quick topics(s)?"

I only have the one. You have more?

[Ren Hoek]

Also, Ren Hoek = TSQ

Don't make me ragequit.

Now post a game flowchart or prepare to die.

[Ren Hoek]

It doesn't say whether the mafia has a kill each day. My working hypothesis is it does.

(27d)Immediate actions' public results (if any), most notably kills will be posted between 0 and 24 hours of me opening the PM, to avoid Time Zone differences breaking the game.

Does the above rule confirm it?

To be helpful, I am going to come right out and confirm that I'm town. I would appreciate if you could do the same.

[Ren Hoek]

Seraphim's first post in the QT stated that one player on the team was scum.

The thought hadn't occurred to me, I hadn't read the rules yet. Now I read the rules, but I'm still somewhat unclear on the concept.

Seraphim knew right off the bat that there was scum in our group.

[Ren Hoek]

what do you understand?

There are a few groups of players can can daytalk and take decisions. The scum is mixed in those players.

My group picks a power.

Scotmany (and others?) pick who it goes to.

[Ren Hoek]

what don't you understand?

Everything else. If I could name it, I would be understanding it.

[Ren Hoek]

The only way he would know if there was scum in your team was if he was scum. Town would have no prior knowledge to suggest that there is scum in your group.

That's what I thought. I immediately thanked him for 'fessin' scum.

Then he replied something about it being a "joke."

[Ren Hoek]

The only way he would know if there was scum in your team was if he was scum. Town would have no prior knowledge to suggest that there is scum in your group.

The time stamp on the QT when he came in asking whether any of us were scum was 12:17.

His first in-game post was 12:16.

The roles were sent out a few hours prior to the game opening.

[Ren Hoek]

Gotta remember this is deep south as well.

Duly noted.

[Ren Hoek]

Seraphim's first post in the QT stated that one player on the team was scum.

The thought hadn't occurred to me, I hadn't read the rules yet. Now I read the rules, but I'm still somewhat unclear on the concept.

Seraphim knew right off the bat that there was scum in our group.

Misrepping at its finest. I never stated I knew there were scum. I asked, and I quote "Are any of you scum?" This was a JOKE to get discussion started. I never stated that and your blanant misrepping is FAR more scummy than anything I have done. I know exactly who to vote once we get to the voting phase.

I'm looking for the misrep.

I can't find it.

[Ren Hoek]

You asked if any of us were scum.

I had no idea what sort of masonry I was in, the PM doesn't name or most importantly enumerate the other members.

I strutted into the QT without a clue.

The last thing on my mind would be to barge in and ask who is scum, not knowing how many others there were, what we were doing, etc.

It was YOUR first thought.

[Ren Hoek]

You have still failed to prove that I KNOW there is scum in Accounting. I'll get to Nuwen's post later.

I can't prove that you did.

I rather believe that you did.

[Ren Hoek]

BTW, you yourself implied that *I* must have KNOWN that you're scum, after I suggested that you just confessed scum.

[Ren Hoek]

That's a gutsy plan. If you were the Creative Director, who would get which abilities?

Answers to this question would be gold for the scum, if they assume that a significant proportion of these answers would be carried out.

I suggest that it be left unanswered, in the tradition of "don't direct the vig."

[Ren Hoek]

How about Ren & Seraphy stop flooding the thread until the other accounting people weigh in?

Roger. I will say no more.

[Ren Hoek]

...you've stumbled onto one of my major weaknesses as a Mafia player. Scum, town, third-party, I am way too excited for the game to progress and for lynches to happen. Every game I've been seen as "oppurtunistic" because I'm simply eager to see people dead and the game to progress.

Self-metas are sus.

Is trying to find out the town's future night choices another of your weaknesses?

[Ren Hoek]

We're not planning on making the night choices public, are we?

Which brings me to the topic of CKD. Lurkerscum much? Yes? No?

[Ren Hoek]

I see I have some catching up to do, I have stuff coming up in the next few days but I expect to have more time available after that. Expect a mega post.

[Ren Hoek]

vote: Ren Hoek

Started suspicion onto the creative director for a bad reason (saying random picks are bad/scummy). The scum would certainly want the director (if not scum) removed so this feels a little bad to me.

I like this logic a lot.

Unvote:Budja

; it was basically a vote for flying under the radar, and with this post, he's not flying under the radar anymore.

Vote: Ren Hoek

I don't think it qualifies as "logic."

FOS: Yosarian
vote: Budja

[Ren Hoek]

Nice OMGUS. Now why don't you tell me

why

my logic fails.

It would have to be logic in the first place, which it isn't.

Scum doesn't stick their necks out in broad daylight to work wagons on players that are threatening or inconvenient. They shut up about it during the day, and nightkill them. Right there, you "logic" breaks down.

Scotmany was neither threat nor inconvenience to scum. Your "logic" takes another hit.

Occam's razor suggests very strongly that I am a paranoid townie. To suggest otherwise, as you have, is scummy.

Hence my vote.

[Ren Hoek]

So since Scotmany wasn't a threat or inconvenience to scum, you could still be scum pushing his wagon? Or am I missing something here?

Yes. You are missing that Budja implied that scotmany was a inconvenience on account of his role. I am saying that he's wrong about that, too.

Also, why do you say he wasn't a threat or inconvenience to scum?

Was he? Who was he threatening, and how could he possibly be construed to be inconvenient to scum?

[Ren Hoek]

Scum doesn't stick their necks out in broad daylight to work wagons on players that are threatening or inconvenient. They shut up about it during the day, and nightkill them. Right there, you "logic" breaks down.

Well actually they do sometimes. If scum think they can get away with making a pro-town looking player/role suspicious, they could very well do it.
You make a bad assumption.

Is my bad assumption any worse that yours?

Scot is the creative director, the most important game role. Without a creative director, we have no PR's [...] So attacking the creative director like you did over such a minor thing looks suss.

I don't think anyone was clear on that when I was testing scotmany's mettle; that certainly was the case for me.

[Ren Hoek]

FoS: Ren Hoek

This will become a vote if he isn't at L-1.

I have 5/8 votes if my count is correct, so don't be a chicken and place your vote.

[Ren Hoek]

Could you explain again why you're voting for Budja here, Ren? It really just looks like OMGUS to me.

His reasons for voting me are spurious, at least from my point of view. Spurious votes are scummy. Of course, it's easier to notice when the spurious vote is against me, given that I know my own alignment.

Also, what do you think about scotmany now?

I am less alarmed, but I wish I could be more confident that he is town.

[Ren Hoek]

FoS: Ren Hoek

This will become a vote if he isn't at L-1.

I have 5/8 votes if my count is correct, so don't be a chicken and place your vote.

Awesome, thanks for letting me know.

Vote: Ren Hoek

The pleasure is all mine.

Anyone else wishes to compromise himself by quicklynching a townie for the sin of aggressively trying to find scum? I have two tickets left on the train.

[Ren Hoek]

...it sure as hell is not productive to the town.

It is productive. At some point you'll realize that it's in the interest of scum to discredit an aggressive player at the earliest possible time in the game. I would surmise that a couple of scum may be on the wagon already.

Rather than trying to be an intentional burden...

I started out very aggressively looking for scum. For this I am rewarded with a lightning speed wagon. Now you call me an intentional burden? I think that's a little unfair, but until my alignment is known you cannot be sure, unless you are scum.

why don't you get up and do something about your current -2 position?

Like what? I've answered the charges, and received more votes. Someone has to be lynched today. If you want to be rid of a player that will make the scum very nervous by being ultra-aggressive, lynch me, I'm your man.

[Ren Hoek]

Please, if anyone that is voting him for being aggressive, let me know.

You know that no one is going to own up to that.

So stop trying to play it as though you're scum's scapegoat. People are voting you for a reason.

Thanks for giving the scumbuddies an out.

[Ren Hoek]

His reasons for voting me are spurious, at least from my point of view.

They're really clearly not spurious. He had good, logical reasons for voting you, as lots of logical intellegent people have pointed out and explained to you by now.

He may or may not be right, but all he's doing is agressive, logical scumhunting for valid reasons. Which you just said wasn't scummy.

I didn't find it logical at all. Perhaps it is because I know he's wrong.

You sound like you are very much looking forward to night in order to enjoy the thrill of the nightkill with your buddies.

[Ren Hoek]

You are all idiots.

unvote, vote: Ren Hoek

[Ren Hoek]

Interesting development.

I thought I was at L-1. That was the incorrect count I was posting. It's not impossible that I unintentionally mislead the scum into thinking I was at L-1. If the scum thought as much, I'd be dead, too, immediately after Seraphim died. Maybe they thought they'd be rid of two account executives in one fell swoop.

Had I counted properly, and died along with Seraphim, we'd have:

vollkan - Head of Account Services
crywolf20084 - Account Executive
Nuwen - Account Executive
curiouskarmadog - Account Executive

There wouldn't be much point in striving to be one scum account executive with 3 townies. But if two of the above players are scum, I definitely see an advantage.

I'm not sure I thought this through fully, but it's a start.

unvote

[Ren Hoek]

As far as I can see, Seraphim was the first vote on your wagon, which is why him getting killed didn't lynch you.

Oops. Yeah.

[Ren Hoek]

The points raised against FL are very solid...

What is so solid about the points raised against FL?

[Ren Hoek]

Why is is "VERY SOLID"?"

[Ren Hoek]

I could see myself voting for SensFan if he fails to produce a convincing explanation for why FL's tell is "VERY SOLID."

[Ren Hoek]

I could see myself voting for SensFan if he fails to produce a convincing explanation for why FL's tell is "VERY SOLID."

Its funny you say that, since I don't think I have any votes on me at all,

I should not vote for you because you don't have any votes yet? Is that your argument?

and you called me a chicken earlier for not voting you when I had plenty of reasons and you were at L-2.

"Plenty of reasons" is a relative term, especially on Day 1 when little has happened and there is no voting record. You did respond to my invitation to vote me quite eagerly.

So why, exactly, did you not just vote me?

I said I would vote for you if you FAILED to produce a satisfactory explanation for you finding the points brought up about FL "VERY SOLID."

Especially since all the points raised against FL (by both Adel and myself) have been explained quite thoroughly.

I want to know why you find them so compelling, because although they do qualify as "points," they are pretty low on the scale IMO. I'm not seeing too many players swayed by them.

I would qualify your play so far as opportunistic.

And since you have failed to explain that the points about FL were strong ones, worthy of qualifying them as "VERY SOLID," you have now earned my vote. With "opportunism" as a supplemental reason.

unvote, vote: SansFan

[Ren Hoek]

...but instead of asking me to explain the points more clearly, he asked me to tell him why they were good.

What's the diff? You're the one that called them very solid. What's wrong with asking you to explain that?

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

Aw c'mon, even I think scot is town right now.

[Ren Hoek]

If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Maybe they seem weak because I don't understand them. Why don't you try? Unless you don't really think the case is "very solid" and you are merely being opportunistic scum.

Also, I notice that you failed to respond to all the other points I raised, about how you strawmanned and misrepresented me.

I'll let the rest of the players decide whether I "strawmanned and misrepresented" you.

[Ren Hoek]

You need to pick one of the two and stick to it. So which one is it?

Neither.

I think I understand them. Maybe I don't. I think they're weak. Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm still waiting to be enlightened by you.

[Ren Hoek]

crywolf20084, vollkan, TDC and Budja (& Nuwen or replacements) are behind the curve on activity.

Please compare and contrast the cases against Ren, Sensfan, and FL...

Why are you guiding the lurkers to limit their analysis, and consequently their votes among 3 players? Is that a sneaky way to give them excuses not to scum hunt? Do you happen to know that all three of these players are town, and therefore, all good lynches from your perspective? Are your buddies among the lurkers?

[Ren Hoek]

I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

Is this as scummy as I think it is?

crywolf20084, vollkan, TDC and Budja (& Nuwen or replacements) are behind the curve on activity.

Please compare and contrast the cases against Ren, Sensfan, and FL...

Why are you guiding the lurkers to limit their analysis, and consequently their votes among 3 players?

I'm asking them specific questions in a specific way so that we can compare their answers, and the overall purpose is to get more even amounts of participation in this game.

So, you're saying that you're asking the lurkers to focus on 3 players for more parcipation? Are there ways to accomplish this goal that are less biased against a minority of players? Are you generally pleased that all the wagons are on townies? Are you hoping to get more support from your lurking buddies? Are you frustrated that you are alone fronting your whole scumteam?

Is that a sneaky way to give them excuses not to scum hunt?

It is a direct way to get them to comment on the three active wagons currently in play.

Are you denying that you're leading the lurkers (aka some of your buddies) onto active townie wagons, leaving your buddies unmolested? Are you denying that you are restricting their scumhunting (or pretend scumhunting) to targets of your choosing?

Do you happen to know that all three of these players are town, and therefore, all good lynches from your perspective? Are your buddies among the lurkers?

From a Ren-town perspective, how could these question possibly help the town win?

Do I make you nervous?

It looks to me like you might be spamming up the game thread with pointless dialog in an attempt to corrupt the signal:noise ratio.

Are you trying to shut me up?

Keep it up and I'll commit to mitigating that risk by pushing for your lynch as quickly as possible. Diarrhea of the hands is not pro-town.

Threats. Nice.

[Ren Hoek]

Also, I like my current vote.

Why?


Also, I'm heartbroken that you are not saying anything about Adel's latest.

[Ren Hoek]

I have commented (at least briefly) on every wagon before save the sens wagon.

That's pretty crummy of you to go slurp Adel's spaghettis and comment only on the three players whose wagons he's trying to whip.

Your failure to comment on Adel has not escaped my notice.

It's still early, but my top suspects now include Adel and less recently Budja. I am currently reconsidering my stance on SensFan following Adel and Budja's suspicious reactions.

[Ren Hoek]

Excuse me, Ren? Care to explain that comment?

Certainly. Adel's whipping of these three wagons by enticing the lurkers to do all the grunt work by answering her question, which I repeat is bizarrely limited to three players, mine being the only one that could be rightfully described as an actual wagon, suggests that Adel is scum, and is opportunistically trying to concentrate suspicion on what might be three convenient townies.

Anyway, I'm not happy about Sensfan's play recently. He said he thought the case on FL was very strong, then when asked to explain why, he got oddly evasive.

Agreed. The smell of opportunism is choking me. I'm trying to weigh SensFan's apparent opportunism against Adel's. I can't arrive at a conclusion at this time.

[Ren Hoek]

Why do you think she has not been posting?

I wouldn't know. What is your theory?

[Ren Hoek]

I plead the fifth.

[Ren Hoek]

Now that you seem a little more calm, could you try to explain your reaction to pressure and your vote for Budja again? It really sounds like you were just saying "his vote for me was irrational because I'm town", and then when multiple people explaned to you that his vote for you was completly rational, your reaction was to basically flip out.

It appears that you want to put the pressure back on me. Is it because your scumbuddies are in danger?

There may be players that found Budja's vote rational but I seriously doubt that they have done due diligence and considered the pro-town aspects of my play. I did not say his vote was irrational because I'm town, rather, I found his vote to be half-baked because it was not based on a holistic analysis of my play. If Budja is scum, his play is actually very rational.

You misrepresented the reasons for attacking you, claiming people were attackign you just because you were "agressive", while at the same time you were attacking people simply for voting you (which actually does seem like you were attacking people for being agressive to me).

There are pro-town alternative explanations for my behavior. It find it unsettling that a wagon nearly led to my lynch over nothing. Agressive is nice, but reckless is potentially harmful.

You called FarieLord scum just because he pointed out that people were voting for you for a valid reason, while not even responding to all the people who were carefully explaining why they were voting for you.

I did respond. I found FL to be opportunistic.

Then you called me scum, claiming I was "looking foward to the nightkill" or something, and again it appears that it was only because I was attackign you.

I'm not very confident that you're town. I might call you scum again later.

Could you explain any of that, Ren? At this point, it's your reaction to pressure that really is making me keep my vote on you.

Enjoy your tunnel.

[Ren Hoek]

@ Adel - stop. You're just going to have to live without a meta.

@ vollkan

Limiting your analysis to 3 players (suggested by another player, Adel) doesn't sit well with me. Are you unable or unwilling to think for yourself and put pressure on players that have gotten away with lurking or flying under the radar, for instance? Adel himself isn't worthy of being looked at? What about Budja?

[Ren Hoek]

Crywolf, the phone's for you.

unvote, vote: crywolf

[Ren Hoek]

I'm hugely disappointed with CKD's lack of substance in this game.

[Ren Hoek]

11 pages of discussion is infinitely more useful.

Eighteen pages should be even better. Who is the scum?

[Ren Hoek]

why, because I am not joining your wagon against cry?...or because I am attacking your scum buddy?

No, because you were hanging back.

But now I see you are in full form again.

Thanks for squeezing SensFan. Both him and crywolf need squeezing. As much as I'd love to hammer SensFan, I won't do it until we get some crywolf blood.

[Ren Hoek]

@Sens, what do you think of Yosarian2?

Hello, lurkerscum.

Is that all we're going to get from you?

[Ren Hoek]

Since crywolf has asked for replacement, it's time to pull the nails off another lurkerscum.

unvote, vote: Budja

[Ren Hoek]

I need top be convinced that FL needs to die and die quickly.

I get the gist of the argument, but I'm not blown away by its strength. What shenanigans are you referring to?

[Ren Hoek]

when have you even been blown away by the strength of an argument on day 1?

Never. But we are talking about knocking off the CEO in short order on Day 1. It better be good.

later in the game with scot still alive a living FL-scum could appoint another player to be CD, and we would be stuck with that player as CD or we would have to choose to be without powerroles. With FL dead we will have an insurance policy on scot, so that we will be able to get another confirmed player to take his place should he die. FL-scum has the power to sabotage our ability to keep a confirmed player in the CD role, and our ability to keep a CD alive in this game.

I see.

And what are the pros of leaving FL alive?

[Ren Hoek]

... and it needs to be a quicklynch so that the scum team won't have a chance to discover the optimal tactic to use from this point to defend FL.

Like, what are they going to do? I feel dense.

[Ren Hoek]

unvote, vote: FairieLord

[Ren Hoek]

I am keenly interested in Budja and vollkan's opinion on this.

[Ren Hoek]

I suspect the lurkerscum will lurk harder in order to avoid expressing an opinion.

We live in dangerous times.

[Ren Hoek]

Give me vig and I'll kill Budja.

Budja has lurked and remained very wimpy and tentative, very cautious with his words, and very short, like he's trying not to give himself away.

Otherwise the choices are pretty obvious.

[Ren Hoek]

You do understand that you can't be given a role, right?

I didn't, actually.

But if someone else would be willing to vig Budja... that be good.

Anyway, I agree with the plan, it's a no brainer.

[Ren Hoek]

vote: Jailkeeper

[Ren Hoek]

So, we officially have jailkeeper?

vote: Tracker

[Ren Hoek]

vote: Tracker

[Ren Hoek]

Next voting block: Bulletproof, right?

[Ren Hoek]

@Ren, examples? I think I have been straightforward enough with my views.

I can't give examples. One has to look at your posts in isolation, or in context. I cannot give an example that explains that you are circumspect and overly cautious. One has to read your posts and FEEL it.

[Ren Hoek]

vote: Bulletproof

[Ren Hoek]

I'd appreciate if someone took a look a Budja, and report on whether they get the same icky feeling I do. Maybe it's my imagination. If it is, I'd like to know. I need a second opinion.

I'm not against an Adel or a Yosarian lynch, however, Budja does seem to be actively trying not to ping anyone's scumdar. In another game, I'd suspect he's a doctor or scum. In this game, only one of these is possible.

[Ren Hoek]

I'm willing and able to lynch Adel for trying to discredit "confirmed townies" - and I use quotation marks to acknowledge that they are not truly confirmed, but pretty damned close.

At the same time, I'm loathe to see Budja playing so overly cautious, and non-aggressive. He gives me intense scum vibes.

Any takers for my Budja challenge?

[Ren Hoek]

It worries me that the day's first vote has been cast by SensFan with a poor explanation.

The SensFan wagon puttered down, and mine swelled, because I was a far easier lynch. One the scum could get away with. I believe it has little bearing on his alignment.

For Mr. Lukewarm to jump in, all hot, with a vote for SensFan on dubious grounds doesn't inspire confidence.

[Ren Hoek]

It's very conservative play, with barely any effort at analysis and only opinions on a few players. 28 is the scummiest post in my view, for the reasons given. A lot of what Budja has said I actually think is legit (and some points I think are very good). However, looking back, he has been most active in his defence and has otherwise been fairly passive. I also don't like the singular attacks on Sensfan. Overall, I'd say moderately scummy; in that 28 is the worst thing, but his behaviour throughout has been largely avoiding of any conflict.

= SCUM

[Ren Hoek]

Case against Adel coming up, courtesy of CKD and OGML, two players whom I very strongly believe to be town.

vote: Adel

[Ren Hoek]

Adel and Yosarian and Budja all need to die.

Indeed I am not surprised that Yosarian finds Adel not in the least scummy.

I am convinced that the players listed below are TOWN:

curiouskarmadog - Account Executive
scotmany12 - Creative Director
OhGodMyLife Nuwen - Account Executive
Ren Hoek - Account Executive
Goatrevolt- Copywriter

Everyone else can (1) be more convincing townies or (2) die.

[Ren Hoek]

I am fascinated by the fact you think they are town. Please tell us why you've reached that conclusion.

The manner and wording of their scumhunting is town, their entire way of thinking is genuine - in thread, and in the QT. In a way that scum can't fake.

[Ren Hoek]

Adel, I notice a pattern of you inflaming suspicion on players that are generally trusted to be town, or nearly confirmed.

Right now you are challenging my read on CKD and OGML. I don't recall either being the subject of suspicion, however, you use what I perceive to be an accusatory tone demanding why I find both players to be very townie.

You seem to really want to avoid that we have players that are generally trusted to be townies. Trusted townies are very inconvenient for the scum. Your actions fit a scum agenda to a tee.

[Ren Hoek]

care to provide specific examples?

No, I do not care to provide examples. I'm referring to their entire contribution, which is full of subtle signs of intelligence, awareness, doubt, and intellectual honesty in their scum hunting.

I think your scum hunting efforts, in contrast, are intellectually dishonest, for the reasons I have outlined above.

[Ren Hoek]

Care to explain, SensFan?

I don't think CKD and OGML are

confirmed

. I have the highest possible town

read

on them. I know the difference.

[Ren Hoek]

And I am not surprised that Ren finds the three people who attacked him the most yesterday scummy, without giving any logical reason for any of it.

I don't believe Adel attacked me yesterday at all (if I recall correctly), so the tenet of your theory is wrong.

As for Budja, I have given my reasons, which have evolved over the course of the game. You may or may not find them to your taste. I care not.

And concerning yourself, Yosarian, the case has been made by others, mostly in the QT, and you're in for a treat when it becomes public.

[Ren Hoek]

Is there any reason it's being held back?

No reason, the masterminds behind it have to dip their quills in the inkwell and start scratching the parchment.

Take your mind out of the gutter, the above was strictly a literary reference.

[Ren Hoek]

I did a bit of a reread.

Rereading Yos, he comes across as very, very passive.
He usually makes reasonable, small points and summaries but hasn't actually done much with it.
He has no opinions of most players, Ren, Sens and Adel are the only three he has really commented on during my read.
He made a good case of misrepresentation on Sens in post 409 but failed to follow up on it at all which is what I dislike the most.
He easily slips right under the radar.

Yos looks scummy to me. I still think sens is scummy so no vote change. I would like to see Sens and Yos's opinions of each other as of now.

I am still not really seeing the case on Adel though.

Interesting.

Budja did a re-read. Except that for some reason, he only re-read Yosarian. Which is odd, since there is no public suspicion of Yosarian, only some promise of a case.

Budja felt a need to beat us to the punch with a half-assed case against Yosarian. Weird. It's as if he's not looking for scum, for for some excuse to join us against Yosarian before the case even happens.

Weirder still, is that he criticizes Yosarian's case against SensFan.

It's bizarre because Budja says Yosarian may be scum, yet Budja keeps his vote on the player that Budja believes Yosarian is misrepping.

Budja is NOT scum hunting. He's mostly placing posts in strategic places, posts with content that is likewise strategic. He's plotting, not scumhunting.

[Ren Hoek]

scotmany:

I stand corrected. However, Budja still finds SensFan scummy, despite another player Budja finds scummy (Yosarian), finding SensFan scummy as well.

[Ren Hoek]

scotmany:

I stand corrected. However, Budja still finds SensFan scummy, despite another player Budja finds scummy (Yosarian), finding SensFan scummy as well.

That doesn't really prove anything Ren. It's called bussing.*

*Not accusing Yos of bussing Sens.

But Budja would have to believe Yosarian to be bussing SensFan, right? Does he?

[Ren Hoek]

Dear Budja,

Please comment on Yosarian's interactions with SensFan and explain them using all possible alignment combos.

Examples:

Yos-TOWN and SF-TOWN
Yos-SCUM and SF-SCUM
Yos-TOWN and SF-SCUM
Yos-SCUM and SF-TOWN

Which combination of alignments makes more sense in light of your analysis of their interactions?

Lynchingly yours,

Ren

[Ren Hoek]

Of course, you're into the full-blown "Make everything Yos does sound bad" phase, ......

I'm uneasy with the above defense.

[Ren Hoek]

Drama, wow. Adel referring to me as

a %#*

er was over the top, his leaving the site is sad and surprising.

Either Adel was a frustrated townie, or a frustrated scum.

Adel is very proud of his recent winning record, and ability to avoid being lynched. If he felt he was about to be lynched, he'd be disappointed, but not to this extent. However, if his team was losing, and bickering internally, if he felt his scumbuddies were incompetent (which might mean we are on the right track with our suspicions), he might take his ball and go home.

Railing against me, then voting SensFan looks like desperate "trying to mix things up with wild signs" that we'll interpret later. I would be surprised if Adel took pains to bus a buddy before leaving, therefore, should Adel flip scum, I should think that SensFan is indeed town.

If Adel flips scum, I hope the bickering was not about bussing, which is often a source of sour feelings in scum teams, because that's going to make our lives more difficult. It could very well be, and that worries me.

I read the outburst and looked for clues of townie outrage, such as, "I'm doing all the work here," "how could you be stupid enough to want to lynch me," and the classic: "the SCUM is trying to lynch me, town, wake up!" The lack of signs of TOWN frustration is glaring.

The outburst points to (to put numbers on my gut feelings) 80% scum, 20% town.

We should still lynch Adel. I pity the replacement.

[Ren Hoek]

An outburst is a null-tell. However the manner and content of said outburst is a scum-tell in my opinion, though I realize most players won't agree.

TDC is an odd choice, but I'm glad he's gone since he wasn't participating much, and as such, was suspiciously hard to read. Thank you scum.

TDC wasn't much of a threat on anyone. Why would scum kill such an inconspicuous white bread player? This suggests that (1) the scum might like challenges, Adel comes to mind, or (2) the better, more aggressive players are scum, as in, why wasn't Adel killed? or (3) there's a better explanation that I haven't considered.

[Ren Hoek]

Dear Budja,

You didn't answer the question I asked of you specifically in my previous letter to you.

I realize that you're only skimming and not reading. Skimming like a good little scum. A good little scum that has not interest or motive in finding scum, because he's on the team.

Thanks for punching the clock.

Lynchingly yours,

Ren Hoek

[Ren Hoek]

I have added crywolf replaced by Ojanen in my trusted player list owing to some evidence of honest scum hunting in the QT. I will not vote for these players today.

Ojanen crywolf20084 - Account Executive
curiouskarmadog - Account Executive
scotmany12 - Creative Director
OhGodMyLife Nuwen - Account Executive
Ren Hoek - Account Executive
Goatrevolt- Copywriter

I won't shed a tear if the players below are lynched:

vollkan - Head of Account Services
MichelSableheart Adel - Copywriter
SensFan - Art Director
Budja - Art Director
Yosarian2 - Art Director

Of the 5 players whose death I will not mourn, all but vollkan are positively scummy. SensFan is a toss up, I keep changing my mind about him, and I'm losing sleep over his recently acquired lurking habit.

[Ren Hoek]

Yosarian is still alive? I disagree with virtually every word he posts.

unvote, vote: Yosarian

[Ren Hoek]

But SensFan you've been posting all over the site.

[Ren Hoek]

But SensFan you've been posting all over the site.

I am assuming that the rest of the site doesn't have about six pages with massive posts he hasn't read yet.

He has been posting elsewhere on a REGULAR BASIS, right? Why assume that he has not read all of 6 pages with massive posts? Is that what he told you in the QT? That he hasn't read the last 6 pages?

[Ren Hoek]

vollkan tends to throw people off the rails with the way he evaluates players. Sometimes he is inconsistent. While I approve of pressuring vollkan, the inconsistency in his position is a null tell.

I do have some questions for vollkan.

Vollkan, I'm trying to decide who I rooting for to be lynched. I'm thinking along the lines of Yosarian, MSH, Budja, or SensFan (his lurking is damning).

Which of these 4 players should I vote for, and why?

[Ren Hoek]

I haven't been able to see a clear rationale for suspecting Yos or MSH

What is it in OGML and CKD's arguments that fails to sway you?

[Ren Hoek]

Re: self-vote

As you can imagine I was immensely frustrated as I felt that the scum was in control of the agenda and that the town was being oblivious or lead by the nose.

[Ren Hoek]

Have you ever considered that the scum targeted scotmany, knowing that he'd be busdriven with a player that a townie might consider scummy? Have you considered that the scum might have made sure that all the main suspects were townies?

Have you considered that the scum may not be that clever, and made no calculations whatsoever, and simply felt safe enough that they wouldn't be a bus driving target?

[Ren Hoek]

I have to conclude that:
If Goatrevolt is town, things make most sense if Ren Hoek is scum.
If Goatrevolt is scum, things make perfect sense if Ren Hoek is also scum.
Therefore, I believe it is highly likely that Ren Hoek is scum.

Aren't you doing a lot of work to merely demonstrate that Goatrevolt's alignment is not diagnostic of mine, and you just plain think I'm scum regardless of Goatrevolt?

Someone help me here, I am no Socrates.

[Ren Hoek]

Hey Budja, have you answered my questions? Because I have more.

unvote, vote: Budja

[Ren Hoek]

I'm willing to lynch Yos, Adel/Michel, Budja, or SensFan.

[Ren Hoek]

Budja isn't scum. It makes no sense for BudjaScum to kill TDC. Even with my ability to choose new pairs it still doesn't make sense. Your Budja vote is a waste Ren.

Oh alright then.

unvote

Here' the informal count of the willing to lynch:

Yos (2) = OGML, Ren
Adel/MSH (2) = OGML, Ren
SensFan (2) = Ren, Goat
vollkan (1) = Goat

[Ren Hoek]

Ren Hoek, why do you list me as being willing to list OGML? I don't think I have ever expressed such a sentiment.

HE is willing to lynch YOU.

So aside from me, who else are you willing to lynch? I'll add you up to the count.

[Ren Hoek]

I believe Ren is as good as confirmed town. This is not a result of extremely good luck on Ren's part, it was bad luck / bad choices by the scum. One attempted nightkill pretty much confirmed three players (scot, goat, ren) as town. Thats why Adel/Michel and Yos have been trying so hard to unconfirm anyone that they can from that group - as a team, they screwed up big time.

There is so much wrong in that statement, I don't know where to start.

I guess I'll just point out that your entire theory seems to be based on the assumption that both me and Adel are complete gibbering idiots who don't know how to play mafia, and leave it at that.

Are you really suggesting that the mafia's kill choice was made by gibbering idiots?

If the answer is yes, I have a follow up question:

If the mafia is a team of gibbering idiots, doesn't that completely blow MSH's pseudomathematical calculations right out of the water in one spectacularly wet blast?

[Ren Hoek]

There's not a lot to pin on someone who hasn't given a lot to evaluate.

Call me paranoid, but I always fear that a lack of information for us to pin someone is usually by design.

[Ren Hoek]

Meaning that there isn't much to pin on Sens because he's playing in such a way as to avoid there being anything to pin on him? Or did you mean something else by this?

You understood me correctly.

[Ren Hoek]

Adel must have left a note on MSH's pillow that I was to be dragged to the noose at all costs for some strategic reason.

It's the only rational explanation that explains MSH's behavior satisfactorily.

I can't think of a reason why it's so important that I be gotten rid of, though.

[Ren Hoek]

Two players I don't trust want to lynch SensFan... not good.

[Ren Hoek]

Finally, I would really appreciate it if those who claim there are too many assumptions in my case against Ren could point them all out to me.

You are assuming a scum team made up of geniuses with IQs above 180, with perfect timing.

Have you ever been scum?

[Ren Hoek]

SensFan,

Why don't we skip the small talk, and get to the crux of the matter?

Are you scum? If you are, we'll just put you out of your misery, and I'm sure your buddies will be delighted to oblige at this point.

[Ren Hoek]

I regret to inform you that I am not, unfortunately, Scum.

Thank you. One less thing to worry about. So. Who is the biggest scumbag between Yosarian and Adel/MSH? What do you think of vollkan?

[Ren Hoek]

Thank you. One less thing to worry about. So. Who is the biggest scumbag between Yosarian and Adel/MSH? What do you think of vollkan?

crywolf20084, vollkan, TDC and Budja (& Nuwen or replacements) are behind the curve on activity.

Please compare and contrast the cases against Ren, Sensfan, and FL...

Why are you guiding the lurkers to limit their analysis, and consequently their votes among 3 players? Is that a sneaky way to give them excuses not to scum hunt? Do you happen to know that all three of these players are town, and therefore, all good lynches from your perspective? Are your buddies among the lurkers?

I'm seeing a bit of hypocrisy here.

Subtle difference. I'm asking one player, not a bunch of lurkers a blanket, loaded question.

Now MSH, what you do you think of this Adelscum post, from another game?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 10#1673210

could all players please answer the following questions:

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?
2. what are your on-going games?
3. what is your personal definition of lurking?
4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?
5. what other names do you play mafia under here?
6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

[Ren Hoek]

[Ren Hoek]

It was based on 66, and 72, and as you see, in 88, I noticed that you looked excessively nervous at the prospect of an upcoming case against you, which, I admit, I overstated.

It looks as if you're still preoccupied by this still pending case against you, since you still remembered it and looked for it in the QT.

If you're scum, I believe that this is news to you, and would semi-confirm vollkan for at least not leaking information from the accounting QT to the scum QT.

I'm trying to figure out if you are this nervous because you're scum, or because you're town.

[Ren Hoek]

Especally considering my earlier concerns that if you are town he may have been trying to buddy up to you, I find that problematic. CKD?

There was a mention of an upcoming case, to precede a vote for either Adel/MSH or yourself, by OGML, who was emphatic in his language.

You think that I'm worth buddying to more than you are? Yet they OGML/CKD are attacking you.

Since you've been thinking I'm scum for the better part of the game, I'm a little more than surprised to learn that you see me as a townie that scum buddies up to. You'd have to be pretty sure I'm town to make that assertion. It's all very unsettling.

[Ren Hoek]

Now MSH, what you do you think of this Adelscum post, from another game?

If I have to go on that post alone, Adel places a lot of emphasis on meta, sees potential differences in opinion on the topic of lurking, and considers these two topics excellent to start the discussion with.

Sure, but he was scum in that game. Know whaddamean? He did something similar here, asking a bunch of lurkers to voice their opinions on Adel's leading suspects.

[Ren Hoek]

Hey MSH.

Change the variable of my alignment in your equations for the constant "townie."

Who is now scum and why?

[Ren Hoek]

The problem is, I can think of two good reason he might do that as scum; either you're his scumbuddy and he dosn't want to draw attention to you, or you're town and he's trying to buddy up to you. I can't think of any reason he would do that as town.

I do know that there are TWO good reasons, if he's scum, for him to do that.

But that's not the interesting bit.

The interesting bit is that you only considered ONE, namely, the situation where I'm town and he's trying to buddy up to me. You didn't bring up that we may be scumbuddies. Given your game-long conviction that I should be scum, and that CKD should be scum, I hope you understand why I'm perplexed that you brought up the reason that goes against your earlier stated views on my alignment.

Is this the kind of error you'd be more likely to do as town, or as scum, and why?

[Ren Hoek]

It wasn't an error. I think that someone pushing the Adel wagon is almost certanly scum. And I think the most likely scenerio right now is that CKD is scum, and that you and OGML are both town, and that he's buddying up to and using the two of you.

I don't understand this statement since I've announced my willingness to lynch Adel/MSH.

It's certanly possible I'm wrong about that; you could be scum and he could be town, or you could both be scum together (although that would be pretty blatent, with the way he's been openly working with you all day, and I never really thought it was all that likely.) But, no, it wasn't an accident or an error that I accused him of being scum buddying up to you; I really think that's the most likely scenerio at this time, and I have for most of the day; i actually thought that was pretty clear in my posts, both in thread and in my conversation with goat that was posted.

So now you don't think I'm so scum because you think CKD is more scum and buddying up to me?

[Ren Hoek]

Let's get this show on the road.

vote: SensFan

[Ren Hoek]

SensFan, you are constantly posting elsewhere around the site. We will lynch you if you do not start doing something.

I have a strong feeling he's scum that's given up for shame of having been found early, or being bussed. Maybe he doesn't want to do or say more, in fear of giving away his buddies in the process of being lynched.

[Ren Hoek]

I think MSH is honest.

My own theory is that all the players whom a townie might consider for bus driving purposes were townies, making it safe for the scum to target scotmany.

I agree that it's pretty short sighted, and that a player like vollkan would have thought of something better.

[Ren Hoek]

SensFan is scum.

He has totally given up.

I might suggest that of the 3 players that voted him before I did, one of them is likely scum, something that would increase SensFan's likelihood of giving up on this game.

(3) SensFan- Budja, Goatrevolt, Ojanen

I would guess Budja, who has also been lurking hard.

I would also guess that there is third scum that is hesitating to vote SensFan, so as not to put all the scummy eggs in the same basket.

So... who is reluctant to vote SensFan, or ignoring the SensFan wagon?

[Ren Hoek]

I agree with Goat.

Players not voting for SensFan:
vollkan - hugely ignoring all things SF.
scotmany12 (TOWN)
MichelSableheart - has threatened to vote SensFan
curiouskarmadog - his reactions to SF's whining seem genuine but light on SF in general.
Yosarian2 - mostly tried to reason with SF against SF's case against FL. Otherwise, he's studiously ignoring the wagon.

[Ren Hoek]

Budja is lurking hard, too.

[Ren Hoek]

I'm not impressed with Budja's recent contribution. It's mostly focused on Goat's comments on Adel/MSH, and weak refutation of some of MSH's arguments.

Why the focus on one player?

Why the prediction that there is little Sens can say that would change Budja's mind, when Budja's lurking has been as constant as Sens's?

[Ren Hoek]

vote: Bus Driver

[Ren Hoek]

I'm on the edge of my seat.

[Ren Hoek]

scot is right. Budja may not be trustworthy with the busdrive. But he can't very well fool around with a vig power. We'll know right away.

[Ren Hoek]

Hey MSH

Did you hammer SensFan because I was starting to turn up the heat on Budja?

Or do you have another reason? I was waiting for contributions from these two lurkers to compare them and help decide who to lynch.

I can't totally blame you, but why the rush?

[Ren Hoek]

Yeah, but if Budja is scum, he'll know who his buddies are targeting.

[Ren Hoek]

Shouldn't Goatrevolt reveal the scumbag BEFORE we end today's vote and the scum becomes able to send the kill???????????????????

[Ren Hoek]

So I can cast my vote before you announce the scumbag?

[Ren Hoek]

But we don't know who the scum is...

vote: vigilante

[Ren Hoek]

I'm reading everyone's posts wondering who is acting like a soon to be revealed CAUGHT SCUM.

[Ren Hoek]

vote: cop

[Ren Hoek]

I'm looking forward to finding out who the scum is, that's when the real analysis starts.

[Ren Hoek]

I'm impatient.

mod prod: Goat

[Ren Hoek]

Might you not be killed any moment now? You have to reveal...

[Ren Hoek]

oh


yeah



sowwy

[Ren Hoek]

I'm going to play it close to my chest for now and see how things develop.

So far, nothing's developing.

It will be much easier finding scum once we know one buddy.

Can we lynch Yosarian in the meantime?

[Ren Hoek]

We aren't lynching Yos today. I will not let that happen. Only viable lynch today will be MSH.

I'm up for a MSH lynch, but I don't see what would be upsetting about a Yosarian lynch.

[Ren Hoek]

Sounds a bit blackmaily.

[Ren Hoek]

Yosarian, who is the scum?

[Ren Hoek]

Yosarian, who is the scum?

CKD, for sure, and probably a few of the quieter people in the game.

Name the two others, please.

[Ren Hoek]

Really, Ojanen? Really.

Please post a case against Ojanen. And it better be a good one.

[Ren Hoek]

I want to point out that you're not pushing really hard against the players you claim to have pinned out as scum. If at all.

[Ren Hoek]

It would be nice if vollkan applied his superior brain power to catching scum, instead of flying under the radar. He could be really helpful, even if he's scum faking it.

[Ren Hoek]

Your pushing against CKD feels a bit OMGUS-y.

[Ren Hoek]

MSH, would you be willing to lynch Yosarian?

[Ren Hoek]

I'm interested in your theory that we're being manipulated by scum.

For instance, yesterday, MSH hammered the scummalurking SensFan.

The voters were:
(6) Budja, Goatrevolt, Ojanen, Ren Hoek, OhGodMyLife, MSH

CKD isn't even on the list and vollkan was too scaredy to vote.

Please tell me more about your theory and how it works.

There are the players that were reluctant to unvote me before the FL lynch:
(4) Ren Hoek- Budja, Yosarian2, vollkan, SensFan

[Ren Hoek]

MSH, would you be willing to lynch Yosarian?

At this point in time, no. I haven't seen any compelling evidence that he's scum, I find myself agreeing with almost everything he says, I believe his stance of defending Adel is not one scum is likely to make, and he is the other member of my creative team.

Alright, who are you willing to lynch, and can you make a convincing case? Maybe I'll join you if it's compelling.

[Ren Hoek]

No, CKD wasn't on that wagon, he was trying to set up a mislynch of MSH today instead.

How do you know it would be a mislynch?

[Ren Hoek]

GR, you're the only one that KNOWS who at least one scum is. The rest of us are still in the dark, and it's pointless to analyze without that knowledge. The best way to find scum is to see who they distanced with, and who they tied themselves to.

Since you KNOW, who do you know think is scum, other than the scumbag you're not revealing to the rest of us?

[Ren Hoek]

I believe vollkan. Vollkan is town.

Hurry up vollkan, who's the REAL scum? Help us find scum so that the town still has a chance to win even after that goatrevolt scumbag has vigged you! We can't do it without you. Halp!

Hehehhehhhhehhehe

[Ren Hoek]

So vollkan, tell us who you tracked!

[Ren Hoek]

CKD =/= scum

vote: Yosarian

[Ren Hoek]

We aren't lynching Yos today. Unvote.

So we leave the scum alive?

[Ren Hoek]

We aren't lynching Yos today. Unvote.

So we leave the scum alive?

That sounds like a foolproof plan. I'm regretting submitting the kill on vollkan now. I wish I had known about the whole keeping the scum alive plan ahead of time.

It's not my plan.

[Ren Hoek]

Goatrevolt!

WOW

Good job scum.

[Ren Hoek]

Nice bus, Yos & CKD.