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[Ren Hoek]

You need to pick one of the two and stick to it. So which one is it?

Neither.

I think I understand them. Maybe I don't. I think they're weak. Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm still waiting to be enlightened by you.

[FaerieLord]

I still don't understand. How would the game possibly be better off with absolutely nothing than with 11 pages of game-related stuff?

It is not absolute nothing. There's a reason every other game starts with a random voting stage

'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

Except I never wished it. I wished there was a random voting stage before hand because it always provides info that we seriously needed at that point

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

Page 16 and you already have a scumgroup? Wow, you're good

I was the first person to go after FL.

Except you entirely dropped it until Adel brought it up again

[SensFan]

I still don't understand. How would the game possibly be better off with absolutely nothing than with 11 pages of game-related stuff?

It is not absolute nothing. There's a reason every other game starts with a random voting stage

Yeah, because there's absolutely nothing else to go on.
We had 11 pages of stuff to go on, which is way better than nothing.

'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

Except I never wished it. I wished there was a random voting stage before hand because it always provides info that we seriously needed at that point

That's bullshit, a 'random voting stage' provides nowhere near as much information as 11 pages of discussion.

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

Page 16 and you already have a scumgroup? Wow, you're good

Not at all, where did you see that?
I said I'm happy with my vote on one person, and that two other people are likely to be Scum.

I was the first person to go after FL.

Except you entirely dropped it until Adel brought it up again

[/quote]
First of all, I don't recall dropping it in here.
Secondly, and Adel can vouch for me here, I haven't dropped it at all in our QT.

[scotmany12]

Vote: SensFan

Not only are you taking what FL said out of context (he wished there was a random voting stage because the game was stalled), you have ignored Ren Hoek. Instead of explaining why the points agianst Fl are "solid" (they aren't, btw) you try to turn it against him.

Umm, except I'm not taking what FL said out of context at all. The fact remains that, if you think the game is stalled, I can't possibly understand why Town would think 'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

Except he never said he wish is started from scratch. He said he wished there was a random voting stage. You are taking what he said out of context.

Furthermore, the arguments against FL have been explained quite well by both myself and Adel - and don't forget the two of us can talk outside of this thread - and Ren didn't say he didn't understand the points raised.

Explaining them quite well in your quiktopic means nothing, cause you know, we can't go look at that. You still ignored him. And don't bring up that it was a no-win situation for you. If you are town, your job is to catch scum. If you believe someone to be scum, you then have to convince others. You seemingly don't want to do that with FL.

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

Oh, so I'm likely scum because I voted for you? Because I don't believe what you are spouting out about FL? Yeah, nice OMGUS.

[Adel]

crywolf20084, vollkan, TDC and Budja (& Nuwen or replacements) are behind the curve on activity.

Please compare and contrast the cases against Ren, Sensfan, and FL, summarizing the strengths and weaknesses of the case against each, and please conclude by telling us who you think is scum.

~~~

@crywolf, where is that large post you had against Serephim?

[curiouskarmadog]

Last game to update. Posting as reading.
Updating (re)reading from page 11.

Sucks that we didn't have a random voting stage as now the game is really stalled. So in an effort to solve this.

Vote: Seraphim

For reasons previously stated and to get the discussion going

Vote: FL

Why would you possibly be disappointed that we have 11 pages of game-related stuff to vote based on, rather than nothing?

what is in that 11 pages that you find important? I guess it wasnt more important than FL's first post at this stage. Was it really worth a vote?
==

Occam's razor suggests very strongly that I am a paranoid townie. To suggest otherwise, as you have, is scummy.

yuck...I mean just yuck. Like you are writting a handbook on how not look like scum. Ballsy statement to say. Don’t know if I understand

your

logic in the rest of the post.

Ren wagon swells fast.

Ren lives up to his avatar in 314….

==
Sera is dead.

Ren unvotes is self vote and more WIFOM.

More yuck from Ren

I thought I was at L-1. That was the incorrect count I was posting. It's not impossible that I unintentionally mislead the scum into thinking I was at L-1.

He is quickly corrected, though.

Sens voting today seems

does

opportunistic. What points (that are not yours) brought up about FL are good? Please explain in your words.

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

why?..do you think they are all scum together? Why is scot scum?

Ren wraps up his post by calling me opportunistic, despite the fact that (if memory serves), I was the first person to go after FL.

so? What does being the first person to attack have to do with being opportunistic. Your inital attack of FL was a stretch...and fucking huge stretch. you dropped your vote when a bigger wagon arises, and only pick up the attack on FL when Adel does (which I think is another stretch). Now you are trying to paint scot as scum too…..wonder if him voting you has anything to do with it.

Vote Sens.

Adel your thoughts on Sens? What do you think of his vote at the start of the phase? Your thoughts on his wagon? Your current position on ren?

[Ren Hoek]

crywolf20084, vollkan, TDC and Budja (& Nuwen or replacements) are behind the curve on activity.

Please compare and contrast the cases against Ren, Sensfan, and FL...

Why are you guiding the lurkers to limit their analysis, and consequently their votes among 3 players? Is that a sneaky way to give them excuses not to scum hunt? Do you happen to know that all three of these players are town, and therefore, all good lynches from your perspective? Are your buddies among the lurkers?

[Adel]

Adel your thoughts on Sens? What do you think of his vote at the start of the phase? Your thoughts on his wagon? Your current position on ren?

I'm holding my cards close to my chest for now. I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

crywolf20084, vollkan, TDC and Budja (& Nuwen or replacements) are behind the curve on activity.

Please compare and contrast the cases against Ren, Sensfan, and FL...

Why are you guiding the lurkers to limit their analysis, and consequently their votes among 3 players?

I'm asking them specific questions in a specific way so that we can compare their answers, and the overall purpose is to get more even amounts of participation in thsi game.

Is that a sneaky way to give them excuses not to scum hunt?

It is a direct way to get them to comment on the three active wagons currently in play.

Do you happen to know that all three of these players are town, and therefore, all good lynches from your perspective? Are your buddies among the lurkers?

From a Ren-town perspective, how could these question possibly help the town win? It looks to me like you might be spamming up the game thread with pointless dialog in an attempt to corrupt the signal:noise ratio. Keep it up and I'll commit to mitigating that risk by pushing for your lynch as quickly as possible. Diarrhea of the hands is not pro-town.

[FaerieLord]

I'm holding my cards close to my chest for now. I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

Which is bullshit since you're voting for me, meaning you're still giving them a "pathfinder". I'm still curious as to why you decide to be non commital to one person, but commit to the other side of it.

[SensFan]

I'm holding my cards close to my chest for now. I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

Which is bullshit since you're voting for me, meaning you're still giving them a "pathfinder". I'm still curious as to why you decide to be non commital to one person, but commit to the other side of it.

Don't worry, Adel commented plenty about how he feels about the wagon forming on me. This way, he's on record with his thoughts, but at the same time can delay posting them until the lurkers have given their thoughts.

[Adel]

I'm holding my cards close to my chest for now. I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

Which is bullshit since you're voting for me, meaning you're still giving them a "pathfinder". I'm still curious as to why you decide to be non commital to one person, but commit to the other side of it.

I've got Sensfan in a private QT topic. My vote is on you for the reasons I've posted, but I have not updated my opinion in this game thread to reflect developments since I initially posted my case against you.

Also keep in mind that the game was stalled when I posted my case against you, and now it isn't. Our less active players now have plenty to comment upon.

[Adel]

woot, I've finally got pictures above my avatar!

[Ren Hoek]

I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

Is this as scummy as I think it is?

crywolf20084, vollkan, TDC and Budja (& Nuwen or replacements) are behind the curve on activity.

Please compare and contrast the cases against Ren, Sensfan, and FL...

Why are you guiding the lurkers to limit their analysis, and consequently their votes among 3 players?

I'm asking them specific questions in a specific way so that we can compare their answers, and the overall purpose is to get more even amounts of participation in this game.

So, you're saying that you're asking the lurkers to focus on 3 players for more parcipation? Are there ways to accomplish this goal that are less biased against a minority of players? Are you generally pleased that all the wagons are on townies? Are you hoping to get more support from your lurking buddies? Are you frustrated that you are alone fronting your whole scumteam?

Is that a sneaky way to give them excuses not to scum hunt?

It is a direct way to get them to comment on the three active wagons currently in play.

Are you denying that you're leading the lurkers (aka some of your buddies) onto active townie wagons, leaving your buddies unmolested? Are you denying that you are restricting their scumhunting (or pretend scumhunting) to targets of your choosing?

Do you happen to know that all three of these players are town, and therefore, all good lynches from your perspective? Are your buddies among the lurkers?

From a Ren-town perspective, how could these question possibly help the town win?

Do I make you nervous?

It looks to me like you might be spamming up the game thread with pointless dialog in an attempt to corrupt the signal:noise ratio.

Are you trying to shut me up?

Keep it up and I'll commit to mitigating that risk by pushing for your lynch as quickly as possible. Diarrhea of the hands is not pro-town.

Threats. Nice.

[TDC]

Ren

So scot opened with

My choice is basically random at the moment, and I am not interested in seeing PGO be given to scum.

Which, while true, is an odd thing to explicitly point out. Ren pushed that point a bit too much for my taste, but I can understand what he means.
I don't think critique of scot is inherently anti-town or scummy.
Budja vote seemed largely OMGUS and the piles of WIFOM (including self-vote) don't help either.
I wouldn't have noticed that he is TSQ had you not said it, so I'm a bit unsure how much of this is caused by him deliberately trying to play different than usually.
I don't see why the wagon rolled that quickly, but then immediately lost steam when he self-voted as if that changed everything.

FL

Sens' point is weak.
Your point makes more sense, though I'm not really bothered by it.
It seems to me that the missing dot was that mafia probably tried to hit whoever was busdriven, which is not immediately obvious. I personally didn't consider that either until you pointed it out.
1 in 7 chance is pretty low (never mind the cases where the busdriver actually hits scum) after all.

Sensfan

I'm not sure how much of Sens' over-dramatization of small things is rhetoric and how much is actual suspicion. I.e. whether he's blowing things out of proportion to see what happens, or whether he actually thinks he's pursuing golden points.

[TDC]

Also, I like my current vote.

[Ren Hoek]

Also, I like my current vote.

Why?


Also, I'm heartbroken that you are not saying anything about Adel's latest.

[Adel]

Also, I'm heartbroken that you are not saying anything about Adel's latest.

I'm heartbroken that Nuwen is getting replaced despite remaining active on this site. Why do you think she has not been posting?

[Budja]

I have commented (at least briefly) on every wagon before save the sens wagon.

Ren: Same case as before. Also reacted badly and began OMGUSing -> scummy. Self-vote is null.

Scummy

FL: Surprised by Seraphim's death. I see this as null. I stand by my previous statement, FL probably failed to read properly, connect the dots. Also I see no (good) reason for scum to purposely act like this.

Neutral

Sens: Misrep of FL's earlier post. Yos's 355 clearly shows this. Sticking to his point which is a little town but fails to answer Ren's question on why he likes Adel's case (main thing I dislike).

Scummy

Ren is still #1.

[Ren Hoek]

I have commented (at least briefly) on every wagon before save the sens wagon.

That's pretty crummy of you to go slurp Adel's spaghettis and comment only on the three players whose wagons he's trying to whip.

Your failure to comment on Adel has not escaped my notice.

It's still early, but my top suspects now include Adel and less recently Budja. I am currently reconsidering my stance on SensFan following Adel and Budja's suspicious reactions.

[Yosarian2]

Woah.

Are you generally pleased that all the wagons are on townies?

Excuse me, Ren? Care to explain that comment?

Anyway, I'm not happy about Sensfan's play recently. He said he thought the case on FL was very strong, then when asked to explain why, he got oddly evasive.

[Ren Hoek]

Excuse me, Ren? Care to explain that comment?

Certainly. Adel's whipping of these three wagons by enticing the lurkers to do all the grunt work by answering her question, which I repeat is bizarrely limited to three players, mine being the only one that could be rightfully described as an actual wagon, suggests that Adel is scum, and is opportunistically trying to concentrate suspicion on what might be three convenient townies.

Anyway, I'm not happy about Sensfan's play recently. He said he thought the case on FL was very strong, then when asked to explain why, he got oddly evasive.

Agreed. The smell of opportunism is choking me. I'm trying to weigh SensFan's apparent opportunism against Adel's. I can't arrive at a conclusion at this time.

[Ren Hoek]

Why do you think she has not been posting?

I wouldn't know. What is your theory?

[Budja]

I'm sorry Ren, I was under the impression that answering questions is good. Thanks for the heads up[/sarcasm]

Ren, asking question of players is

good

. If you wanted my view on Adel, you could have just asked me.

Adel has been scumhunting a lot and created the plan for PR's -> town read from me.

@All, have anyone played with Ren before. If so, is this usual behaviour for him?

[Yosarian2]

[
Certainly. Adel's whipping of these three wagons by enticing the lurkers to do all the grunt work by answering her question, which I repeat is bizarrely limited to three players, mine being the only one that could be rightfully described as an actual wagon, suggests that Adel is scum, and is opportunistically trying to concentrate suspicion on what might be three convenient townies.

Meh. I don't really have a problem with that. Getting lurkers to post is always a good thing, and it's usually good to ask them specific questions when you do that. In this case, what she's asked them is basically to comment on the three people who have been attacked so far today and to say if they agree or disagree with those three attacks, which is a good way to get people focused on the game.

Basically, it seems pro-town and useful as far as I can see. It's generally a good idea to get everyone's opinions down in writing in the thread.

I have mixed feeling about you, ren. Your attack on Sens makes sense to me, but your response to what started as some mild pressure early in the day still looks like really scummy over-reaction and OMGUS vote to me.

Now that you seem a little more calm, could you try to explain your reaction to pressure and your vote for Budja again? It really sounds like you were just saying "his vote for me was irrational because I'm town", and then when multiple people explaned to you that his vote for you was completly rational, your reaction was to basically flip out.

You misrepresented the reasons for attacking you, claiming people were attackign you just because you were "agressive", while at the same time you were attacking people simply for voting you (which actually does seem like you were attacking people for being agressive to me). You called FarieLord scum just because he pointed out that people were voting for you for a valid reason, while not even responding to all the people who were carefully explaining why they were voting for you. Then you called me scum, claiming I was "looking foward to the nightkill" or something, and again it appears that it was only because I was attackign you. Then you voted yourself and put yourself at lynch -1.

Could you explain any of that, Ren? At this point, it's your reaction to pressure that really is making me keep my vote on you.

[Adel]

@All, have anyone played with Ren before. If so, is this usual behaviour for him?

Ren is an alt that has only been used for this game. Based off of Ren's posts in http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... t=#1625218
Nuwen concluded that Ren was not TSQ. Based upon the time/date stamps between TSQ posts and Ren's posts on this site, I suspect that Ren actually is TSQ, and the posts in the "Goodbye All" thread were designed to disguise Ren's identity.

You can review all of Ren's posts on this site by viewing http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... 3&start=50 -- his first post on this site clearly outs him as an alt.

~~~

@Ren: are you TSQ?