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[TDC]

Adel is almost certainly scum if Sens is town.

That...dosn't really make sense to me, scot.

Adelscum would want to keep scummy town Sens alive so that he could still get abilities to use. If Sens is town, that's a point against him.

FWIW, given similar summiness, I'd be inclined to lynch non-Budja.

Curious to see what you guys have come up with.
Adel-suspicion more or less matches a gut feeling I have, though the only thing that's close to substantiating that is how quickly he changed wagon away from ren after the Seraphim kill (scum motivation being that Ren was going to be unlynchable once the busdriver claim came, town motivation being that ??)
Yos hasn't bothered me so far.

[Ren Hoek]

I did a bit of a reread.

Rereading Yos, he comes across as very, very passive.
He usually makes reasonable, small points and summaries but hasn't actually done much with it.
He has no opinions of most players, Ren, Sens and Adel are the only three he has really commented on during my read.
He made a good case of misrepresentation on Sens in post 409 but failed to follow up on it at all which is what I dislike the most.
He easily slips right under the radar.

Yos looks scummy to me. I still think sens is scummy so no vote change. I would like to see Sens and Yos's opinions of each other as of now.

I am still not really seeing the case on Adel though.

Interesting.

Budja did a re-read. Except that for some reason, he only re-read Yosarian. Which is odd, since there is no public suspicion of Yosarian, only some promise of a case.

Budja felt a need to beat us to the punch with a half-assed case against Yosarian. Weird. It's as if he's not looking for scum, for for some excuse to join us against Yosarian before the case even happens.

Weirder still, is that he criticizes Yosarian's case against SensFan.

It's bizarre because Budja says Yosarian may be scum, yet Budja keeps his vote on the player that Budja believes Yosarian is misrepping.

Budja is NOT scum hunting. He's mostly placing posts in strategic places, posts with content that is likewise strategic. He's plotting, not scumhunting.

[scotmany12]

I did a bit of a reread.

Rereading Yos, he comes across as very, very passive.
He usually makes reasonable, small points and summaries but hasn't actually done much with it.
He has no opinions of most players, Ren, Sens and Adel are the only three he has really commented on during my read.
He made a good case of misrepresentation on Sens in post 409 but failed to follow up on it at all which is what I dislike the most.
He easily slips right under the radar.

Yos looks scummy to me. I still think sens is scummy so no vote change. I would like to see Sens and Yos's opinions of each other as of now.

I am still not really seeing the case on Adel though.

Weirder still, is that he criticizes Yosarian's case against SensFan.

It's bizarre because Budja says Yosarian may be scum, yet Budja keeps his vote on the player that Budja believes Yosarian is misrepping.

Uhhhh, no he didn't. Budja said he liked what Yos said about Sens. He never said Yos misrepped Sens. He said he was disappointed that Yos never followed up on what he said against Sens.

For the record, I agree with you about Budja's case against Yos. I didn't like it either. But don't take it out of context.

[Ren Hoek]

scotmany:

I stand corrected. However, Budja still finds SensFan scummy, despite another player Budja finds scummy (Yosarian), finding SensFan scummy as well.

[scotmany12]

scotmany:

I stand corrected. However, Budja still finds SensFan scummy, despite another player Budja finds scummy (Yosarian), finding SensFan scummy as well.

That doesn't really prove anything Ren. It's called bussing.*

*Not accusing Yos of bussing Sens.

[curiouskarmadog]

At first my feeling about Adel being scum has been gut. It might have something to do with a meta that I think I have on Adel. However, the problem with meta is that any decent scum player (and Adel is a bit more that “decent”) is that they are always changing. It is the same feeling I have about vollkan. The problem is I have been away from the game for 6 months and people change (sometimes even sexes).

So meta and gut aside, why do I think Adel is scum.

1.) First and for most was his defense of Sens. Sens was acting quite scummy. His (sens) attack and vote of FL (town) was stretchy at best. Adeltown has nothing to gain by defending Sens especially in light of his actions. Adelscum defending Senstown on the other hand not only gains a buddy, but if Sens flips town, buys himself town creds.

Adel didn’t come out defending at first. In true Adel fashion he waited to see what best suited his game.

Adel your thoughts on Sens? What do you think of his vote at the start of the phase? Your thoughts on his wagon? Your current position on ren?

I'm holding my cards close to my chest for now. I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

The first statement was utter nonsense. Adel had been spouting who he thought was scummy for awhile. SO why wait? At first I read this second sentence one way, but rereading it looks odd. Why would hanging Sens be serving as a pathfinder to get a mislynch? I don’t know Sens alignment…would lynching sens be a mislynch?

This is another reason I now think Sens is town. I whiny bitchy town…but town none the less.

To me I have a big problem with this chain of events.

Sens attacks FL with stretchy vote.
Adel keeps feeling about Sens close to chest
Scot and I attack Sens
Adel “not willing to let Sens get lynched today”
Sens whines (I back off)
Adel attacks FL with tactics.

I understood Adel’s FL plan. Though I felt it was hugely flawed. It was tactically correct if done quickly by design, but at any time FLscum could have screwed us. Adel had a case against FL before her strategic point….so did Sens. Neither point stuck. It feels like you exploited that strategic point to push your agenda, which was to get FL lynched. Defending Sens as town falls into line with that agenda.


2.) Something about Adel’s 180 in taking the tracker role in their QT thread. One post he offers Sens whatever role he wants, the very next post, Adel takes Tracker. I would like to know what really happened to make adel change his mind. Nothing in the game happened during that time (post 268-270, if I am going my times right) …Though Adel was active on the site at that time…just not in the game. I thinking there was planning going on during that time and that is why you snatched up tracker so fast.

You also stated that you wanted to track goat(more on this next)…had you mentioned any where at this time that felt goat was scummy? During that period of time(between QT posts), you voted vollkan, not goat. I had to ask adel twice to answer the question and finally got a:

for adel

--

What happened in between the “take whatever you want post” and “nm, I will take tracker.”

I thought about it, and decided that I had a strong hunch on who to investigate, and that I didn't really trust Sens.

Please vote for FL now.

I looked over this answer at the time because I was so pissed at Sens reaction. How did you get that strong hunch? Why didn’t you trust Sens, he had a chance to take the tracker role, but didn’t.


3.) the whole goat thing. I think it is convenient that you just happened to target goat (without having much if any suspicion on him) to confirm exactly what he had already claimed.

4.)

That leaves:
vollkan
curiouskarmadog
OGML
Yos2
TDC
Budja

as my lynch candidates. I do not have a preference at this time.

then turns around and starts painting ren as scummy again. IF ren isn’t a lynch candidate for you today, why are you spending your time discrediting him?

5.) Adel lack of putting a case together on anyone. Many time, I have seen adel tunnel vision as town and relentlessly attack who he thought was scum. Twice being on the receiving end of that. This game, he is heavily using game mechanics, lurker theory, and OOG reasoning to lightly push who he “feels is scummy”. Your list of candidates is too wide of a net.

Vote Adel

[OhGodMyLife]

I led the attack against both Ren and Sens on day 1; I effectivly started both bandwagons.

CODE RED! BULLSHIT ALERT!

Is this what you call effectively starting the Ren wagon, Yos?

vote: Ren Hoek

Started suspicion onto the creative director for a bad reason (saying random picks are bad/scummy). The scum would certainly want the director (if not scum) removed so this feels a little bad to me.

I like this logic a lot.

Unvote:Budja

; it was basically a vote for flying under the radar, and with this post, he's not flying under the radar anymore.

Vote: Ren Hoek

Because it looks to me more like blatant piggybacking.

And as for Sens, it was hard to even find anything where you even addressed him, let alone started his bandwagon, since you never actually voted for him. I don't know about anyone else, but when I hear someone say that they "started" a bandwagon, I expect a vote to be involved.

You just made random potshots when it was easy, like this one:

Anyway, I'm not happy about Sensfan's play recently. He said he thought the case on FL was very strong, then when asked to explain why, he got oddly evasive.

And, even stranger than this, you took issue with Sens dodging REN of all people:

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

Ren, of course, being the same person you're still busy trying to crucify.

In fact, Yos never once moved his vote from Ren after placing it except to help quicklynch FL.

And after Adel is lynched and flips scum, this post right here will be the final nail in Yosarian's coffin.

CKD did a damn fine job with the Adel write-up. I don't think I need to add any more.

[Ren Hoek]

scotmany:

I stand corrected. However, Budja still finds SensFan scummy, despite another player Budja finds scummy (Yosarian), finding SensFan scummy as well.

That doesn't really prove anything Ren. It's called bussing.*

*Not accusing Yos of bussing Sens.

But Budja would have to believe Yosarian to be bussing SensFan, right? Does he?

[scotmany12]

scotmany:

I stand corrected. However, Budja still finds SensFan scummy, despite another player Budja finds scummy (Yosarian), finding SensFan scummy as well.

That doesn't really prove anything Ren. It's called bussing.*

*Not accusing Yos of bussing Sens.

But Budja would have to believe Yosarian to be bussing SensFan, right? Does he?

You'd have to ask Budja that. As of now, is seems to be so.

[OhGodMyLife]

Given that Yos hasn't even had the cajones to actually vote for Sens yet today, despite ratcheting up the rhetoric, I'd say this qualifies more as distancing than bussing, if they are indeed scumbuddies.

I'd say its much more likely that Sens is town and Yos is just not sure how much groundwork he needs to lay before he can vote Sens without taking heat for it later. (Hint: there is not enough groundwork in the world.)

[scotmany12]

Also, I want to see both Sens and Adel's reactions to what has occurred recently.

[Ren Hoek]

Dear Budja,

Please comment on Yosarian's interactions with SensFan and explain them using all possible alignment combos.

Examples:

Yos-TOWN and SF-TOWN
Yos-SCUM and SF-SCUM
Yos-TOWN and SF-SCUM
Yos-SCUM and SF-TOWN

Which combination of alignments makes more sense in light of your analysis of their interactions?

Lynchingly yours,

Ren

[Yosarian2]

I led the attack against both Ren and Sens on day 1; I effectivly started both bandwagons.

CODE RED! BULLSHIT ALERT!

Is this what you call effectively starting the Ren wagon, Yos?

vote: Ren Hoek

Started suspicion onto the creative director for a bad reason (saying random picks are bad/scummy). The scum would certainly want the director (if not scum) removed so this feels a little bad to me.

I like this logic a lot.

Unvote:Budja

; it was basically a vote for flying under the radar, and with this post, he's not flying under the radar anymore.

Vote: Ren Hoek

Because it looks to me more like blatant piggybacking.

I put the second vote on him. And then, I continued to push the wagon in my next 5 posts, while Brudja wasn't really saying anything. So, yes, I do believe I started the ren wagon.

Wasn't that basically why you were attacking me earlier?

And as for Sens, it was hard to even find anything where you even addressed him, let alone started his bandwagon, since you never actually voted for him.

Are you shitting me?

This post of mine, right here, was hte argument the entire Sens wagon was based on.

The points raised against FL are very solid, and I still haven't forgotten FL's "Damnit, I wish we had nothing to start off of" comment.

That's actually rather unfair, you know.

Fl actually said:

Sucks that we didn't have a random voting stage as now the game is really stalled. So in an effort to solve this.

Vote: Seraphim

For reasons previously stated and to get the discussion going .

He was upset the game was stalled, which makes perfect sense, because it was, and because a stalled game with a fixed deadline is very bad for the town. He suggested that it might be stalled because we didn't random vote so now no one knew how to get started, which might be correct. So he then voted for someone in an attempt to get something going.

That really dosn't sound at all like what you're claiming he said, sensfan...

I then continued to push the argument througout the day.

So, yeah, out of the 3 real bandwagons yesterday, I consider myself the primary cause of 2 of them. Which is why it's complete bullshit for anyone to accuse me of not being agressivly scumhunting this game.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I hear someone say that they "started" a bandwagon, I expect a vote to be involved.

(shrug) Well, hey, when I think I've caught two scum on the same day I can't vote for both of them.

You just made random potshots when it was easy, like this one:

Anyway, I'm not happy about Sensfan's play recently. He said he thought the case on FL was very strong, then when asked to explain why, he got oddly evasive.

"when it's easy"? I consistantly had problems with Sen's behavior all day on day 1.

And, even stranger than this, you took issue with Sens dodging REN of all people:

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

Ren, of course, being the same person you're still busy trying to crucify.

Did you read my posts? Because I made pretty clear that the one thing that made me doubt the case against Ren was the way Ren was attacking Sensfan; I thought Ren's attacks on sesfan looked more pro-town then anything else Ren had done all game, and I said so; and I wanted to hear Sens's response to it.

Of course, you're into the full-blown "Make everything Yos does sound bad" phase, the exact same thing you've done the LAST 6 or so games we've played together where you've completly stopped listening to anything I say.

In fact, Yos never once moved his vote from Ren after placing it except to help quicklynch FL.

And I explained why I was keeping my vote on Ren in some detail.

Again, you're making observations of things I did that were pretty clearly pro-town actions, that I explained in great detail already, and trying to make them sound bad. Which, again, is typical.

And after Adel is lynched and flips scum, this post right here will be the final nail in Yosarian's coffin.

Bullshit. Adel is playng like he does when town; he's trying to get everoyne to post, he's getting people's opinions, and he's suggesting stratagy. This argument against him is shit. You have yet to point out a SINGLE post of Adel's that looks at all scummy.

And what's worse is it seems like you're not actually making your cases in the thread; I am getting the impression you seem to be using the accounting quicktopic to manipulate people into agreeing with you, instead of actually making your arguments in thread where people could respond to them. Is that the case, OMGL? Frankly, I don't care about you attacking me for bad reasons, because that's consistant with your meta, but the fact that you seem to mostly be doing it in secret does not.

[Yosarian2]

Given that Yos hasn't even had the cajones to actually vote for Sens yet today, despite ratcheting up the rhetoric, I'd say this qualifies more as distancing than bussing, if they are indeed scumbuddies.

I'll vote when I think voting is the pro-town move to do, thank you very much.

[Yosarian2]

1.) First and for most was his defense of Sens. Sens was acting quite scummy. His (sens) attack and vote of FL (town) was stretchy at best. Adeltown has nothing to gain by defending Sens especially in light of his actions. Adelscum defending Senstown on the other hand not only gains a buddy, but if Sens flips town, buys himself town creds.

That's bad logic, CKD. IF you think Sensfan is town (and it sounds like you do, from the rest of your post), then Adel defending him has to be considered a pro-town act. Now, if Sensfan is scum, then Adel defending sensfan is definatly a big point against him. But I hate the "X defended Y, and Y was town, so X must have been scum!" argument you seem to be going for here. If a pro-town town person thinks someone else is town, they bloody well should defend them.

[OhGodMyLife]

(25c) Individual Creative Department Members (those who have lost one half of their Creative Team) may not be assigned any role actions.

That looks like more than enough motivation for Scum-Adel to defend Town-Sens, so stop trying to feed us that "defending someone who's town is a town-tell" bullshit.

[Ren Hoek]

Of course, you're into the full-blown "Make everything Yos does sound bad" phase, ......

I'm uneasy with the above defense.

[Adel]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

[Adel]

And what's worse is it seems like you're not actually making your cases in the thread; I am getting the impression you seem to be using the accounting quicktopic to manipulate people into agreeing with you, instead of actually making your arguments in thread where people could respond to them.

actually, I think that carrying on conversations in as many threads as possible is a good thing for the town.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

---------------------

Going to review the Adel case in less of a skimmed form. I will say that I think the point about Adel tracking me despite not expressing suspicion of me publicly is weak. If I were scum, I would be one of the better choices to submit a night kill simply because I was unsuspected.

[Adel]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

Ren is the most probable scum.

---------------------

Going to review the Adel case in less of a skimmed form. I will say that I think the point about Adel tracking me despite not expressing suspicion of me publicly is weak. If I were scum, I would be one of the better choices to submit a night kill simply because I was unsuspected.

IIRC I did mention you as one of my three primesuspects early in my QT with Sens.

[Yosarian2]

Of course, you're into the full-blown "Make everything Yos does sound bad" phase, ......

I'm uneasy with the above defense.

That's not a defense. Just a growing frustration from this happening every single time I play a game with OGML.

[scotmany12]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML? I'm not really getting your vote right now.

[Yosarian2]

And what's worse is it seems like you're not actually making your cases in the thread; I am getting the impression you seem to be using the accounting quicktopic to manipulate people into agreeing with you, instead of actually making your arguments in thread where people could respond to them.

actually, I think that carrying on conversations in as many threads as possible is a good thing for the town.

It depends how you do it. It feels like this game is suddenly splintering into a "creative" thread faction and an "advertising" thread faction, and that seems very bad for the town. I really wonder if someone in the advertising thread is doing that on purpose, intentionally, probably with a "divide and conquer" type scum motive. I am only speculating at this point, since I don't actually know what's going on in the advertisng thread; whoever is in that thread and town, I would like to know exactally what is going on over there.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

So...you're trying to look like scum?

Or does OGML attacking you somehow make a Ren vote more viable?

OGML claiming that suspicion of Ren being scum is a scumtell is bullshit.

How exactly is that a point against Ren though? Wouldn't that be a point against OGML? I'm not really getting your vote right now.

Agreed. I don't see how OGML prompted the Ren vote at all.

Ren wasn't on your list of 6 scum suspects in your post a while back. Why is he the most probable scum?