War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[Tenchi]

/confirmation!

[Tenchi]

I will be posting sparingly in the coming week.

[Tenchi]

I hope this game won't rely too much on previous games or relationships or something. I only know Seraphim out of the whole cast. :\

[Tenchi]

Good luck everyone!

So, I'm not super familiar with what the most sensible play is when it comes to hurting and healing, but from what I've read of the previous versions of these games, it's possible scum accrue extra damage/powers over time. I think it's in our interest to play this game in a relatively quick fashion.

Hurt: DrippingGoofball

Hi!

When I read the previous versions, the first thing I noticed was the "fake votecounts" (eventhough this game only had HURT and HEAL actions).

I didn't even notice the Rage points until the others have pointed it out.

I am quite surprised you noticed the Rage points WITHOUT noticing the fake vote counts (and how it could possibly help counteract RAGE points/random hurting). Makes me think you really didn't read the game and just have the knowledge of RAGE points.

FOS: Hoopla

[Tenchi]

Heal: PopTajo

[Tenchi]

ABR: Thanks for your summary - you put together a case weightier than expected, but I think you're exaggerating what to me looks merely like a strategy disagreement.

QFT. I just hope that disagreeing on discussion strategy isn't immediately taken as something "scummy". I honestly would initially agree with Kinetic's ideas, and probably would have suggested something similar, before anyone voiced some points on it stalling the game (which I find also correct). I won't fault Kinetic just because he suggested something like that. Thinking about his intentions on suggesting a less-than-optimal strategy is WIFOM for me.

Reading more.

[Tenchi]

More Notes/Comments from me

KINETIC CASE BY RAMPAGE: I agree with the downplaying part. I will note that for future cases.

ROFLCOPTER: For the record I played with Rofl before too.

speaking of organize, i'm organizing a brute squad, and inducting the following obviously town people into it immediately: abr, xyl, dgb, and tajo (if he'll accept). we should all agree on one person and put them down. over and over, until we've killed all the scum.

This is so creepy. The last time I saw people do this, it allowed scum in the council (even when they were in the minority) to manipulate the vote. Also, why should we trust your choices? I feel just placing one scum in that council of four can really sway things.

Also, this prevents us to see true accountability on Hurt and Heal actions. If we let Hurt and Heal actions to be as natural as possible then we will be able to dig through better intentions of each ad every person.

On another note, I totally agree with the fake voting system because it lets us express our disagreements and scum hunting without putting innocent people in jeopardy.

right, hoopla dies right after kinetic

i love how i always make the scum squirm right away

This was said after some people told him not to post definitive statements without explanation.

Er... is rolfcopter drunk...?

Acyually, whats wrong with making definitve statements? We know that town has no additional info. There are some actions that tell you that someone is more prob town or more prob scum. Or gut. I usually play like that.

For me, "gut feels" come froms some hint of scumminess. Sure even with weak suspicions.

I want to know if Rolfcopter:

1. Has reasons
2. If his reasons are strong are weak.
3. If he admits his reasons are strong or weak

I don't care whether somebody calls somebody out, but I always look for a reason.

Vote: Hoopla/Roflcopter

(Hoopla for my initial suspicions. I'll use this system as a bookmark)

It's a fake vote right? :p

[Tenchi]

I just murdered the last post with typos. :\

2. If his reasons are strong

OR

weak.

[Tenchi]

Good catch.

FoS: ViQ

. I renew Shinnen's question, how are you so sure about the distribution?

115

Not necessarily, you know? In F11 games, mafia is a 22% of the total population. In other games, mafia can go as low as 20% or as high as 30%. But you just said a solid number, not even a "I'm guessing" or "about 75%". That's what I found suspicious.

I hope you don't find him suspicious because of something very semantic (which I think you're driving at.)

If he added the phrase "I'm guessing" or "about 75%" would it change your view of him?

Finding arguments because of a play on words is bad town play.

[Tenchi]

Also, this prevents us to see true accountability on Hurt and Heal actions. If we let Hurt and Heal actions to be as natural as possible then we will be able to dig through better intentions of each ad every person.

On another note, I totally agree with the fake voting system because it lets us express our disagreements and scum hunting without putting innocent people in jeopardy.

You can't agree with both of these - the vote system is specifically designed to make the hurting less haphazard and therefore less 'natural'

Correct. But I feel that the voting system is a good balance of being "natural" and getting intentions without putting people in bad shape.

[Tenchi]

Drench, several other cases have been posted.

Do you have a new case (notice anything weird)?
Which of the existing cases do you agree with?

[Tenchi]

The more I think about it, the more I feel the best scum strategy is a highly aggressive one. Especially if they can make it look townie to be aggressive.

When is this NOT a good scum strategy? I feel that all games would benefit scum if they were aggressive in "scum hunting".

[Tenchi]

Fixed Votecount.
10 to massive hurting

I wouldn't wait that long. I'd rather have a deadline, and see who has the most votes by then. Getting a majority with 10 people usually ends up with a lynch that "everyone agrees with". And you know what happens when "everyone agrees"...

...Townies get lynched.

Let's agree on a deadline. Better if somebody does the math.

[Tenchi]

I cant really post anything useful right now. Browsing the thread there has been a lot of people campaigning against other people and I can't make a dedicated decision right now (aside from what I've said early in this game).

I'll catch up next week. (Sunday)

[Tenchi]

This is to report that I am going home now from the conference. I will be catching up tonight and tomorrow and maybe the day after that, but I will be available to converse starting tonight.

[Tenchi]

Some quick questions (try to compress answers in one post so that the others can do their discussion; i will still read by the way after this):

1. Can anyone post a new count on who healed who and hurt who?
2. Why are we not doing the voting thing anymore? Or are we still doing it kinda but without the tallying?
3. Has anyone claimed anything that potentially clears them?
4. Seraph == Seraphim?

[Tenchi]

Why would I buss Shinnen when I put the first hurt on her and no one followed me? Especially if Shinnen was agreeing with me from the beginning. She never contradicted me, not once.

I'm going to rephrase this....

"....especially if Shinnen was agreeing with me from the beginning..."

Perhaps you were scum with him and Shinnen was a noob (meaning he just agrees with anything his allies say).

"Why would I buss Shinnen..."

If my statement above is true, then it is a perfect reason to bus her.

===========================

I present this because I found your statement very circumstancial and is not a truly valid defense.

[Tenchi]

I mangled my pronouns. :\

[Tenchi]

I present this because I found your statement very circumstancial and is not a truly valid defense.

I responded to an invalid attack.

ERGH... I you're experienced in this game you should know better.

If you see bad logic, you don't fight it with bad/worse logic.

[Tenchi]

Thank you ABR.

[Tenchi]

I'm just shocked with the pace of the kills. I'm thinking that we lost are lead after we got our first scum.

I am not sure of what context "the plan" you have is in, but I feel that a small group (small scum infested/infiltrated group?) dominating the hurts is just bad.

Let's have more discussion. When we added a bit of more thinking, I think we do well together. I think we should try to do what we (or you guys) did the first few days in this game.

[Tenchi]

I would like to see the Fake Votecount re-introduced

Please, we need everyone to vote on this, Thank You

<3

[Tenchi]

There's at least one chess player on the scumteam.

Really? What's so 'check' about killing Kinetic? I was just going to look up really dumb players as possible scum.

(I'm sandwiching my review. Reading backwards and reviewing the earlier stuff)

Kinetic was STRONGLY suspected early game. I feel it was a bad move to use rage points against him IF they were rage points. In that case, scum are just trigger happy people who want to kill people.

I am not taking out the possibility of an passionate Townie with an ability to deal secret damage too though. I have yet to review why Kinetic was hurt by people.

[Tenchi]

roflcopter is a serious hypocrite for trying to tar me with WaltWishbone, now. At least I had support from other people and wasn't just going on a one-man crusade.

Who were the other people?

[Tenchi]

Xyl: I don't mean by other supporters. I mean other people who "crusaded" against Walt.

[Tenchi]

All the townies who decided to go after me

So. Townies are going after you. You know they're townies, eh?

If there are 6 people attacking me, Nurse Ratchet, they can't all be scum.

Interesting ABR. With all that is going on right now, that statement was a long-shot. Similar to the attacks of Shinnen on the 75% thing.

Noted.

[Tenchi]

2169 explains the whole ZWET issue.

Claim who you watched Zwet.

The plot thickens. Should he or should he not reveal who is was/is watching if he dies?

[Tenchi]

Interesting ABR. With all that is going on right now, that statement was a long-shot. Similar to the attacks of Shinnen on the 75% thing.

Noted.

I don't understand this.

The thing you said: "So you know they are all townies huh..."

I felt was a long shot accusation.

[Tenchi]

Hurt: Rofl

for creating groups of "sure-protown-buddies", very scummy.

With an divine glow, Shinnen unsheathes her longsword, with the speed of a lighting, and swiftly yet precisely strikes the fallen Rofl's back, leaving a trial of fire as the edge cuts both the air and the flesh of the heathen.

I also read back Walt's post, and I couldn't really find a case on him. Xyl accused him of scumlurking, but I don't think anyone with a life can keep up actively to the post rate of this topic. The same happened with Hoppla. Yes, there are a few strange things, but nothing as scum like Rofl's and Fonz' attitude.

... I actually can't tell. Walt and Hoopla were both townies, so Shinnen is acting with info there... actually the best bet for a link to a buddy in this post is Fonz.

NOTE: Also early on, page 156, without strong suspicions or anything, Shinnen voted for Rolf.

[Tenchi]

Ah, I've had an idea. Designate a specific player as designated enforcer, on a 24 hr rota. That player may not harm or heal of their own volition, but will be required to enforce the hurting without support rule (not needing support). If they break it, everyone else in the scheme masshurts, no questions asked.

We don't even need full compliance for this, as long as there's enough partaking to defend the system.

I don't understand this proposal and I feel it is non-enforceable.

[Tenchi]

No.

It would be individually giving up your hurt for 24hrs at a time, so that any player who hurt unilaterally would be similarly hurt. (obviously, if someone actually needs to hurt, we move onto the next enforcer on the list).

Now this worries me. Can't just we all just behave and be accountable for our hurts? If Townies are irresposnisible enough to hurt people without proper discussion, opinion from others and rebuttal etc. I feel that it will just spread out the hurts.

[Tenchi]

No.

It would be individually giving up your hurt for 24hrs at a time, so that any player who hurt unilaterally would be similarly hurt. (obviously, if someone actually needs to hurt, we move onto the next enforcer on the list).

Now this worries me. Can't just we all just behave and be accountable for our hurts? If Townies are irresposnisible enough to hurt people without proper discussion, opinion from others and rebuttal etc. I feel that it will just spread out the hurts.

If townies are irresponsible enough to do that, it will spread out the hurts. It's a deterrent.

Well, I'd rather go for "Townies" who are apparently leading us to a series of Townie lynches, especially with crappy reasons drawn from one or two circumstancial reasons.

I suggest we continue the review of the last few Townie wagons and the Shinnen case and see what we get there.

[Tenchi]

Do you mean this one Fonz?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 75#1576075

I am honestly not sure, but I have a couple of notes on Xyl:

178: Xylthixlm proposes we kill both Kinetic and Zwet, but let's kill Zwet first

227-228: Quick exachange. Juls accuses Xyl of twisting words, which I agree with in that instance.

[Tenchi]

WTF was I thinking about there. You were talking about Seraphim.

[Tenchi]

Oh now I know. You pointed Seraphim was scum and Xyl was the buddy.

I was thinking that I'd rather lynch Xyl first because of what I had in my notes.

[Tenchi]

And what are the exact rules. How much support is agreed upon? And can one support multiple wagons? If so, how much at once? I for one support rofl hurting Xyl, as well as the wagon now going on ABR. I also seriously question Firestarters motives (he resurrects an idea that didn't work in the first plays, and is playing on the safe side by going after the obvious).

A wagon must have a minimum of three supporters.
You can only support one at a time.

WTF

I have a strong feeling that there are three or more scum. That suggestion just gives more reason for a small group to go after players whenever and whatever they want.

Let's have a bigger group agreeing on it (definitely NOT three) and let's continue supporting multiple suspect wagons. It is something we can do in this game unique from other games.

[Tenchi]

[quote="roflcopter"]
you fuckers had better not use your stupid heal squad on xyl[/quot

QFT

[Tenchi]

The Kinetic wagon would have been more beneficial to town if it had been decided by a substantial amount of players and not only by rolf.
Basically what Im saying is that there is no NEED to hurt someone you think is scum. You could be wrong. Thats why voting fits the same objective with LESS PROBS disastrous scenarios like we have seen so far.
And in case voting gives us a wrong decision, we HAVE something to analyse. The wagon. Not only a rabbit that thinks he, if town, is so cool being a slow vig. Also we avoid different people being hurt, pretty much like we are right now.

FIXED

[Tenchi]

Shorter deadline please? I feel 2 days is better.

[Tenchi]

Good question.

I have a whole bunch of notes I will be posting later. I'm at post 615 right now. I'll stop at around 2000 since that's where I started catching up. (Note that I started my review today, so I'd be more than halfway done tomorrow.)

Currently I'm leaning towards Xyl and DGB as scum.

[Tenchi]

Post 714.

Is DGB an Ophan in the open? Did I misread something?

[Tenchi]

My brain stopped at post 830 something...

Currently I'm clearing Rolf, Tajo, Fonz.

I still hold my position that Xyl and DGB can be scum, although I am very unsure that they are buddies.

[Tenchi]

Tenchi Votes:Xyl, DGB

I still can't decide on a third name, primarily because I can't even link Xyl or DGB together.

I feel Juls would not blatantly stick his nose up ABR's ass if he was scum. I think Juls would somewhat refer to his buddies in some daytalk thread first. Now, if ABR and Juls was a pairing, then ABR should go first. There is more reason for ABR to accept Juls-puppet than for Juls-puppet to find a host.

[Tenchi]

Hey, rofl, how much do you want to bet that I come up scum? If I'm going to die I might as well profit from it.

Once again, I will offer my opinions on any player if anyone cares to ask.

Why do you have to wait for somebody to ask you to do something everybody (or Townies) should do, especially if you are in trouble?

[Tenchi]

Shit.

[Tenchi]

How much rage has been used recently? Can somebody do this quick for me?

[Tenchi]

Can somebody compute the rate of rage scum get? Assume three/four scum

[Tenchi]

Is that six scum youre telling me Nuwen?

[Tenchi]

Can I hurt Xyl now?

[Tenchi]

Tajo, Rolf, Fonz? Are you guys online?

[Tenchi]

Completely unsupported conjecture: The scum get 2 rage per player who dies.

I don't see any way of testing this, besides waiting a while and seeing if we all die suddenly.

That suggestion doesn't make sense.

I don't know if you're scum deliberately trying to make us play with stupid assumptions or you are just...?

[Tenchi]

My XYL notes. I didn't read much today except the current happenings, but I got past after Shinnen's death.

178: Xylthixlm proposes we kill both Kinetic and Zwet, but let's kill Zwet first

214: Xyl mentions to not let Seraphims use the blades unless its a damage race for the sake of transparency

226: DG denies Juls proposal to hurt Xyl

227-228: Quick exachange. Juls accuses Xyl of twisting words, which I agree with in that instance.

263-264: Xyl wants to hurt Juls or Walt. Wants to hurt Walt more for lurking.

321: Xyl repeats the Walt case: "Every word he's written has been scummy and noncommittal."

326: Zwet accuses Xyl of being trigger happy.

328: Juls wants Xyl dead because Xyl is spreading damage around.

330: Xyl requests Rolf to help with hurting Walt

334: Around here, Walt gives a good point on Xyl's math on the number of misynches Town can afford

360/368: Xyl declares Walt as scum and Seraphim is town.

377: Shinnen attacks Rolf for hypocrisy. Marks Rolf, Tajo, Xyl and ABR as scum. (Scratch that, he says it wasnt a serious comment)

404: Seraphim does not think Xyl is scum. Backs a Zwet or Walt lynch.

427: Xyl denies Walt's towniness declared by ABR.

464: Seraphim deflects. Uses WIFOM to clear Tajo. Xyl defends Seraphim.

473, 474: Xyl admits he has this weird system for cleaing people. Says Walt has done nothing to clear himself compared to others who were lurkers.

477: Xyl is against the hurting of Seraphim and Fonz.

482: Didn't read too much. Walt mentions Xyl is scummy. REVIEW THIS TENCHI

559: Xyl declares wanting to hurt Shinnen, then Walt

685: Xyl accuses Walt of being wishy washy and distancing from Shinnen

707-708: ABR thinks Xyl is protown, trusts Fonz, Rolf, Xyl, Tajo and Nuwen

[Tenchi]

Completely unsupported conjecture: The scum get 2 rage per player who dies.

I don't see any way of testing this, besides waiting a while and seeing if we all die suddenly.

That suggestion doesn't make sense.

I don't know if you're scum deliberately trying to make us play with stupid assumptions or you are just...?

Why doesn't it make sense?

If scum get rewarded for every player they kill (most of which will be Townies), then it is unfair and heavily skewed against us.

Further, I don't even know, at this point, why you would even suggest we all wait a while now that we know scum get rage points at some faster rate.

Also, you don't spend MONEY to get MONEY back. (I spend RAGE to get more RAGE?) It's bad game design.

[Tenchi]

Xyl, you are an active player in this game. Why even bother debating me on theory when we are all about to get killed?

[Tenchi]

Why did Tenchi suddenly go all berserk on me when I made that suggestion? Did I say something that scares him?

I'm not panicking because you made a ridonculous suggestion. I'm panicking because I want advice from my trusteds and they are not here. And I'm panicking because we lost three townies in one day. Two out of rage.

[Tenchi]

Xyl, you are an active player in this game. Why even bother debating me on theory when we are all about to get killed?

YOU DIDNT ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

Lemme rephrase it: Any new insights after the kills? If it's not you, then who?

[Tenchi]

LOL Xyl. I'm not falling for that.

[Tenchi]

LOL Xyl. I'm not falling for that.

You didn't actually give any reason why I must be wrong, you know.

I'm attacking you. And your reaction is justified.

Let the others judge who was right. <3

[Tenchi]

Xyl, you are an active player in this game. Why even bother debating me on theory when we are all about to get killed?

YOU DIDNT ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

Lemme rephrase it: Any new insights after the kills? If it's not you, then who?

I'm betting the scum are out of rage for the moment. If they aren't, we're probably going to lose anyways, so I won't worry about it.

At the moment I'm concentrating on the numbers. Those two points of damage to DGB and Nuwen are interesting...

We can do the math later, and that what was what you have been doing a lot in the game.

Now again, tell us who you think is scum.

(For the record, I feel that speculating on why DGB and Nuwen were hurt is full of WIFOM.)

[Tenchi]

I'd rather do the math. We've already proved that I'm horrible at finding scum.

LOL. You are most probably next on the chopping block. And we know that stating who you suspect is harmless. Now either...

1. You are scum, and is satisfied with leading 2,3 or 4 HURT motivated kills and wants your buddies to continue your job OR
2. You have stopped "scum hunting", which also means you're scum.

Pick your poison.

[Tenchi]

Just answer the damn question Xyl. <3

[Tenchi]

Too bad your sudden change of demeanor is way, way, way too obvious.

Nope. I have expressed my disgust of you for some time since the voting system was reintroduced. It's just now I had the time to elaborate on it.

[Tenchi]

So Nuwen, you are actually OK with Xyl not telling us who he suspects?

[Tenchi]

Look at the context of why I said that. He is refusing to do a very simple request.

[Tenchi]

Xyl, you could have said that earlier instead of accusing me of "changing my demeanor" and telling us that you are "focusing on numbers".

[Tenchi]

I just asked you a question and you dodged it.

And now I'm scum?

Genius.

I can't wait for the other people to get in here.

[Tenchi]

To help you out. I really like Tajo. I subscribe to his voting system philosophy and I think he's Town.

I think Fonz and Rolf are town also, despite their disagreements with Tajo on theory.

[Tenchi]

Nuwen, look again. my "case" surfaced becuase of my notes on Xyl beforehand, plus post 2726. Not to mention my REASONS for voting on Xyl is long overdue.

[Tenchi]

And... Xyl is online! Why not grill/question him?

[Tenchi]

Why did you stop at 50?

Linky and read onwards!

CLICK HERE

[Tenchi]

And... Xyl is online! Why not grill/question him?

Because contrived, aggressive play isn't my thing? If I have a question or want information, I ask for it. Creating a brute force onslaught rarely gets me reactions that I'm able to read; it's useless pressure.

You misunderstand me again. You need to sleep. <3

I was answering why question on why I am aggressive now towards Xyl. I am adding the fact that I'm capitalizing on Xyl being online.

I am not asking you to grill/question him for me.

[Tenchi]

Why did you stop at 50?

Linky and read onwards!

CLICK HERE

Because that's where you go berserk. I just saw it.

Nope, that's an excerpt of my notes. <3

Think of it as Tenchi-Townie-love.

[Tenchi]

... you do realize I'm online for like 12 hours a day? It's not exactly hard to find time to grill me.

Not being here very often... er... no. :\

[Tenchi]

Roger.

Hurt: Xyl

With Hammer, bow, staff, sword thing

[Tenchi]

Rolf, what time will Fonz/Tajo be online with you? I need to discuss something.

[Tenchi]

Rolf, I have notes on Xyl. I don't know how much help I gave with that but I suggest you read it.

[Tenchi]

^ Hey look, Tenchi and roflcopter are openly ignoring the voting/intent to hurt system.

You should be thinking "Scum couldn't possibly be

that

blatant, could they?"

That was my first hurt for the entire game.

Aren't you special? <3

[Tenchi]

Oh yeah, before I forget...

I

do

wish that I had a better meta on Xyl. Everything I know about him comes from reading Medieval and talking to TSQ, who just breaks into strings of profanity to describe his playstyle. Whenever I agree with a player at length in a game, I grow paranoid and think I've been manipulated or mislead. That's a nuance of my own play though, not Xyl's.

I love TSQ too. <3

DrippingGoofball and Seraphim were my scumbuddies in Mind Screw Mafia 3. Kinetic and zwetschenwasser were in that game as town. I think everyone who saw my play there is now in a state of permanent paranoia about me.

DrippingGoofball was also in Minivitational 10 which I was in, but I think she died before I replaced in.

You can find my other games in my wiki. I've had the bad luck to be scum in most of the ones that are finished. (Or good luck, depending on how you look at it.)

Oh God. More self-meta!

[Tenchi]

Fonz, will you support a Xyl hurt?

[Tenchi]

Xyl, linky is broken.

[Tenchi]

I am not a lurker. <3

[Tenchi]

You were lurking. And now, after the last round of rage, you're suddenly all up in Xyl's face.

Vote: TENCHI

Also,

Heal: DGB

Did you even check my case on him? And our discussion? Why attack me on being "against all ip in Xyl's face" and not tell me whats wrong with the merits of my case against him?

[Tenchi]

All angels of the same type start with the same HP right? <3

[Tenchi]

It's not your case that's the problem: it's the fact that you've suddenly out of the woodwork, all guns blazing against a single player after being passive the entire game AND after the latest round of rage. This bothers me A LOT.

Huh? When is participating and scum hunting bothering Townies? Would you ratherm me "lurk" like the last time?

[Tenchi]

All angels of the same type start with the same HP right? <3

FUCK ANSWER THE QUESTION.

I was reading the thread's past pages and didn't find a question. Sorry. Linky, or post number please. I'm doing my own investigation here

[Tenchi]

Oh sorry.

IM NOT A SERAPHIM.

(I thought the flavor text was the in thing :p)

[Tenchi]

TAJO WHY ARE YOU IGNORING ME! <3

Ophans start with the same HP right? 8?

[Tenchi]

Nevermind, I miscalculated. Thought zwet had 12 HP.

[Tenchi]

To help you out. I really like Tajo. I subscribe to his voting system philosophy and I think he's Town.

I think Fonz and Rolf are town also, despite their disagreements with Tajo on theory.

SO WHY THE FUCK DID YOU HURT XYL?

It was my first hurt in the game. Thought I'd get a free pass. I was annoyed and I screwed up on following the rules. But I think I did what I felt was the right thing, at least for me.

Won't happen again.

[Tenchi]

Oh rolf... :\

[Tenchi]

Check the first post. Every player should start with the same HP unless they are

1. replaced
2. topped off by another player

I think scum may have decided to not rage Xyl because they can make connections and list his potential "scumbuddies" while not actually killing him.

I think scum might have decided not to rage me because they don't have 6 rage built up.

They had tons of Rage built up (as seen by the remains of the two dead players). The question/reaction was "why didn't they use it on you".

The answer is NOT because "They don't have 6 rage".

[Tenchi]

unless the claimed ophan is also scum

BRILLIANT

I have seen it happen before but we somehow need to confirm.

[Tenchi]

It's pretty obvious they killed the Ophans first, and why.

Didn't notice Viq was an Ophan too. Hmmm... Three Ophans.

[Tenchi]

Why does ABR get away with hurting Seraphim?

[Tenchi]

Vote: Tenchi
roflcopter

The choice between ABR and myself is a false choice. Forcing people to choose between two players simply because they were at the top of the votecount is a false choice. What if I don't believe either player is scum?

Er... then why are you voting for me?

[Tenchi]

Why does ABR get away with hurting Seraphim?

Because according to the vote count, Seraphim is the vote leader.

We hadn't had a new votecount? I thought Weyouns was the last one killed by the last set of votes? And I thought we're starting with a new one after his flip.

[Tenchi]

Seraphim Tenchi notes!

108: Seraphim heals back Shinnen

255: Seraphim votes Viq. Wants scummy people out rather than lurkers.

271: ABR calls the four scum out: Seraphim, Drench, DGB, Shinnen.

363: Rolf negotiates: Seraphim first, then Walt.

366: Tajo heals Seraphim

404: Seraphim does not think Xyl is scum. Backs a Zwet or Walt lynch.

417: Seraphim's case againt Zwet. Just noting it here but I don't see much since most of it is meta.

464: Seraphim deflects. Uses WIFOM to clear Tajo. Xyl defends Seraphim.

477: Xyl is against the hurting of Seraphim and Fonz.

522: Rolf grills Seraphim. REVIEW.

560: Seraphim's post. Two things irk me about this:

"Making an attack on an unharmed townie is not the work of a town player." Are you using that as an excuse to hurt Shinnen? Do you with agree why he was getting hurt? I feel that Seraphim feeling forced to do something (instead of providing alternatives, or support) because of the pressure to hurt somebody who has already been hurt to look Townie.

Then... " Also, killing the fallen Seraph will help town an amazing amount."

I'm amazed he didn't question the discussion between who is the Fallen Seraph (if there was one) between Rolf and Shinnen.

686: Seraphim accuses Walt. Now due to keeping Shinnen because she was a Seraph

710: Seraphim agrees with a Hoopla and Walt lynch.

[Tenchi]

Tajo, Xyl, Rolf: What do you think on my notes above on Post 560?

[Tenchi]

Why does ABR get away with hurting Seraphim?

Because according to the vote count, Seraphim is the vote leader.

We hadn't had a new votecount? I thought Weyouns was the last one killed by the last set of votes? And I thought we're starting with a new one after his flip.

Why did you start playing right now?
You were angry with Xyl why?

Again, would rather me to "start playing" later? Why are you questioning me standing up for what I think is right, right now?
I wasn't "angry" with Xyl. I just feel annoyed that nobody is supporting his lynch when he has done quite a number of suspicious things, especially subtle ones.

[Tenchi]

Tajo, Xyl, Rolf: What do you think on my notes above on Post 560?

What are your conclusions of your post?
The same I ask to Nuwen.
Conclusions, people, conclusions.

Just by post 560, I think Seraphim knew that Shinnen would turn up Fallen Angel (thus not questioning the Rolf vs Shinnen discussion)

Can it be read some other way?

[Tenchi]

Again, would rather me to "start playing" later? Why are you questioning me standing up for what I think is right, right now?
I wasn't "angry" with Xyl. I just feel annoyed that nobody is supporting his lynch when he has done quite a number of suspicious things, especially subtle ones.

Your timing is too convenient. If you were town you would have been analyzing the deaths yourself, not grilling me over whether I was analyzing them.

I have been analyzing stuff! When I have the time! (hence Tenchi notes)

If timing is an issue, then when should I have come up to speak up?

[Tenchi]

I'm inclined to agree with this - the mini kept a 2:0 town to scum ratio in the Ophanim department. Adding an extra Ophan but aligning it it with scum goes counter to all of our other balance speculations, which assume that the mini's setup did not favor the town enough.

I

hate

confirming players on circumstantial logic, but this setup requires the town to indulge overlapping possible setups and determine which makes the most sense.

If DGB can be pseudo-confirmed, Xyl is pseudo-confirmed. Scum Xyl requires this game to have a 2:1 ratio for Ophanim. This explains the misplaced damage on DGB, which is probably just an effort to whittle her down. It doesn't account for the random damage tossed in my direction. I'm still wtfuxing on over that.

The issue with that is that we have ten or so players unclaimed. Any one of them could be the hidden Ophan hoping to find a guilty result or something. But yeah, "pseudo" seems to be the word.

[Tenchi]

Tenchi who is scum right now for you?
Who is town?

I'll repeat:

TOWN: TAJO, ROLF, FONZ
SCUM: XYL, DGB, SERAPHIM (?)

# Albert B. Rampage - Leaning Scum
# Giuseppe - Leaning Scum
# Firestarter/Drench - Neutral
# Nuwen - Neutral
# q21 - Neutral

[Tenchi]

The timing of the scum kill burst, followed immediately by a vicious (and weak) attack on me, is not coincidental. Scum are going for the win.

the same argument goes for a scum gambit by dgb to false clear herself and you. if we're only a kill or two away from scum winning, now is the time to stop me from finishing you

This is the part where I also say...

"Thank you, Captain Obvious"

[Tenchi]

That's another 4 points of secret damage. Something weird is going on.

That is too much secret damage. Is this game screwed up?

[Tenchi]

Nevermind, I miscalculated. Thought zwet had 12 HP.

How does this affect anything?

I though DGB was lying when he said he only had 7 HP.

[Tenchi]

Tenchi, you've been very quiet until the rage outburst, and you are coming on alot more strongly than previously...

Again, I will ask: Would you rather me be quiet for an X number of days/hours after the rage outburst to voice my suspicions to not look scummy?

Please attack what I say, not the timing.

[Tenchi]

I was at a conference. I actually said something on confirmation that I'll be gone for a week.

If you want photos of that I'll be happy to post it LOL.

[Tenchi]

Regardless, its nearing endgame, and you, you have been quiet for so long...
You, who has only casted their first hurt several pages ago....
Are now playing a different style of game.

My change of play style would also make sense if you assume I am Town. We are being bombarded with rage. I have not helped too much. And my suspects are slipping below the radar.

Again, would you rather have that I was "consistent" in being quiet?

[Tenchi]

I was at a conference. I actually said something on confirmation that I'll be gone for a week.

If you want photos of that I'll be happy to post it LOL.

The game is running for nearly 2 weeks now, what of the other week (almost)?

I was discussing theory with you guys and suspected Hoopla. And preparing for the conference.

[Tenchi]

Looking back, I suspected Rolf too. I guess for his craziness and not wanting the voting system I wanted too.

[Tenchi]

Please let us not discuss times. The conference was week long, give take, a few days for rest (didn't have much sleep). We can get to a debate on it but it will just waste time.

Now, for my suspicions, I cannot piece them together that much. But those are the things I noticed when I did a review last Sunday.

I am kinda surprised there is little suspicion on Xyl despite him being on the Townie wagons.

[Tenchi]

I am kinda surprised there is little suspicion on Xyl despite him being on the Townie wagons.

Are you reading the game?

What are you questioning me on? Little suspicion on Xyl part? Or him in the Townie wagon part?

[Tenchi]

Xyl is one of the most wanted players...

Then why did he receive like four votes last time?

[Tenchi]

Votecount

Albert B. Rampage 7 (DGB, Xyl, viq, giuseppe, Seraph, zwet, q21)
Seraphim 7 (Fire, DGB, Fonz, Xyl, Giuseppe, zwet, rolf)
rolfcopter 4 (Tajo, viq, giuseppe, Seraph)
Xylthixlm 4 (Tenchi, viq, zwet, rolf)
zwetschenwasser 2 (Fire, q21)
DrippingGoofball 1 (Tenchi)
Giuseppe 1 (Xyl)
Nuwen 1 (Fire)
q21 1 (Tajo)
populartajo 1 (rolf)
Firestarter
Tenchi
The Fonz
vIQleS

Not voting: ABR, Nuwen.

Please everyone vote before deadline, 36 hours from now.

[Tenchi]

Don't look at the vote counts. Read the entire game and stop reading scum quick notes.

I am reading on my own notes, no one else's. I haven't continued past 800 so far and I should be doing that right now.

[Tenchi]

REALLY BAD META? OR WORTH AN INVESTIGATION?

Check Tajo's posts and the use of asterisks. Use CTRL+F

[Tenchi]

Nevermind. Those were edits. I think.

[Tenchi]

REALLY BAD META? OR WORTH AN INVESTIGATION?

Check Tajo's posts and the use of asterisks. Use CTRL+F

What? Are you trying to suggest that typos are scummy?

Exactly. ><

Stoopid.

[Tenchi]

giuseppe and q21 hereby replace xyl and dgb on the list of obvscum

Why?

[Tenchi]

I'm continuing my reread. I have not received any hidden damage so far.

[Tenchi]

But why not just kill these players? Why not wait until they had enough rage to kill DGB or the Fonz? I just wish we know how the scum got rage points in this game...

This is my question too.

[Tenchi]

OMG What happened?

[Tenchi]

Can I at least defend myself? Can somebody present a case?

[Tenchi]

Tajo posted in caps and now we need to kill you.

Unless you are scum on my wagon. <3

Present a case please. And please do not say "timing" or all that crap.

[Tenchi]

I think there have been cases throughout the game.

And I have appropriately defended myself. My absence, my "timing" and the people I suspected and cleared.

If there is anything I missed, kindly restate them.

[Tenchi]

Maybe people don't think you're defense is suitable?

Or, better yet, who do you think is scum? Or, even better, what do you think of all the players in the game still alive? Who is scum and who is town?

I will repeat it for the umpteenth time:

TOWN: ROLF, TAJO, FONZ
SCUM: XYL, DGB, SERAPHIM

(Things are changing in this list, but I have to recompose myself)

[Tenchi]

Maybe people don't think you're defense is suitable?

Or, better yet, who do you think is scum? Or, even better, what do you think of all the players in the game still alive? Who is scum and who is town?

I will repeat it for the umpteenth time:

TOWN: ROLF, TAJO, FONZ
SCUM: XYL, DGB, SERAPHIM

(Things are changing in this list, but I have to recompose myself)

All players, please. And list reasons. I'm guessing you don't believe that DGB cleared Xyl?

That is one of the factors I am reconsidering. But I'm willing to risk lynching Xyl over DGB if it was between the two them.

[Tenchi]

That is one of the factors I am reconsidering. But I'm willing to risk lynching Xyl over DGB if it was between the two them.

Fail. It's not "between DGB and Xyl", it's "DGB clears Xyl".[/quote]

The issue of that is the fact that I'm not dismissing that there could be scum Ophan, given that Townies have roles too.

I won't dispute you for believing DGB.

[Tenchi]

No. Scum dont have Ophans.

How can you be sure?

[Tenchi]

It's not that DGB can't be scum, it's that

I can't be scum unless DGB is also scum

.

But then if both of you are town we lose a power player, DGB.

[Tenchi]

What purpose does scum Ophans have besides finding town Ophans? Which is useless because any Ophan, to be useful, has to claim at some point.

When should a Town Ophan claim?

[Tenchi]

It's not that DGB can't be scum, it's that

I can't be scum unless DGB is also scum

.

But then if both of you are town we lose a power player, DGB.

What the heck are you talking about?

We have three scenarios:

1. DGB is scum --> Xyl is fooled Townie
2. DGB is scum --> Xyl is happy cleared scum
3. DGB is town --> Xyl is cleared Townie (or cleverly dodge scum by a long shot)

But look at this:

1. DGB flipping Scum, we not sure if you are scum. If DGB is Town, we lose an Ophan.
2. Xyl flipping Scum, we are SURE DGB is scum. If Xyl is Town, we lose a vanilla(?).

=========================

Well correct me if I'm wrong but I think lynching Xyl is better than lynching DGB.

DISCLAIMER: I am not limiting the choices to these two people. I am merely explaining my stance on a given dilemma.

[Tenchi]

No. Scum dont have Ophans.

How can you be sure?

There is only 3 claimed Ophans. Nobody else seems to have hinted that he is an Ophan. Last game, town had 2 Ophans and scum 0 Ophans. Scum and town had both 1 Seraphim. It was a mini. Therefore, its pretty safe to assume that there are no scum ophans and that there are 2 Seraphims for side.
Anything else?
In the worst scenario, your flip is going to give us valuable information. Even if you are town.
What are you going to do when you are recharged?

Are you saying the best play for a Hidden Ophan to do is out himself at this point?

I am not sure what to do when I'm recharged. Anything can happen.

[Tenchi]

wagon built on him too fast. he's being made a scapegoat by all the scumbags. xyl never lurkerhunted him when he was actually lurking.

And you don't think the wagon built on me too fast? That the number of people going after my blood radically increased?

My wagon came in IN TWO PAGES. After Tajo called it out. Then it's the Tenchi needs to die mantra.

PAGE 1: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=2975
PAGE 2: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=3000

[Tenchi]

The irony here is that Tenchi is advocating a test lynch on me despite my being cleared by DGB.

Uh, helloo-oo?

I am not test lynching you. I WANT to lynch you. Along with Seraphim.

[Tenchi]

wagon built on him too fast. he's being made a scapegoat by all the scumbags. xyl never lurkerhunted him when he was actually lurking.

And you don't think the wagon built on me too fast? That the number of people going after my blood radically increased?

My wagon came in IN TWO PAGES. After Tajo called it out. Then it's the Tenchi needs to die mantra.

PAGE 1: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=2975
PAGE 2: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=3000

Please scumlist updated NAO.

It's the same. With DGB at 3rd.

[Tenchi]

for the Umpteenth + 1 time

1. Xyl
2. Seraphim
...
3. DGB

[Tenchi]

Er... yes? I think?

[Tenchi]

No. Scum dont have Ophans.

How can you be sure?

There is only 3 claimed Ophans. Nobody else seems to have hinted that he is an Ophan. Last game, town had 2 Ophans and scum 0 Ophans. Scum and town had both 1 Seraphim. It was a mini. Therefore, its pretty safe to assume that there are no scum ophans and that there are 2 Seraphims for side.

We have around ten players unclaimed, minus the firm believers (2-4 people) still gives us five(?) people.

I am not clearing DGB just because of his claim.

[Tenchi]

Okay, Ill ask this. ANYBODY THAT IS AN OPHAN SHOULD CLAIM RIGHT NOW.
I doubt we get any responses but this might change your mind.

The thing is, I don't think this is the right course of action for an Ophan at this point.

Let's see what happens.

[Tenchi]

By the way, Tenchi's role was NOTHING like what you guys thought it was. I'll give you a little longer to guess though before explaining (unless Tenchi wants to tell).

I'd love to.

Before anything else, I want to say that most of the people who speculated on what the Metatron did, or how RAGE was accumulated, I believe were scum trying to twist facts that town would never know about. I just noticed this when I came across Tarahalindur's (did I murder the name?) list of scum tells in the wiki.

When I was debating with Xyl, I was actually panicking whether to claim or not, and wrote this in notepad... I was in the brink of posting it:

Code: Select all

Sorry guys I have to claim.

[b]I'm Metatron. I can ask God questions.[/b] The answers have not been exact, and God never answers them directly. But the information we get may be helpful. I will post my previous questions later. I can ask one question per dead person, following 48 hours after their death. Questions consist of 72 letters or less. I doesn't require I am charged, but it makes my charge timer go back 24 hours.

I NEED YOUR HELP.

I need the questions by tomorrow.

[b]ONE QUESTION EACH FOR ROFLCOPTER, FONZ and POPTAJO[/b]

Others, I need healing.


WEY = Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:16 pm
VIQ = Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:47 pm  
ZWET = Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:57 pm

[Tenchi]

The questions and answers were fucked up.I was trying to learnt he whole way, until I panicked, and it was too late. I feel I screwed up, or I want to bonk Flay hard on the head.


Q1. Do Albert B Rampage, Tenchi and Populartajo have the same alignment/side?
A1. Albert B. Rampage, Tenchi and populartajo began with the same HP. (Mar 24, 2009 7:29 pm)
Notes: I was trying to confirm the most active players in the game. I thought I had a good start with the role this way. I was waiting for Tajo/ABR to slip up the whole game.


Q2. Is Kinetic one of the Fallen?
A2. Kinetic is one of the Cherubim. (Mar 26, 2009 6:56 am)
Notes: Kinetic was a star suspect, but could possibly be saved by me if it would turn out that he's town.

Q3. How may Seraphs do we have in heaven still alive?
A3. There are at least two Seraphim still alive in Heaven. (Mar 28, 2009 6:38 pm)
Notes: This was in the middle of the Seraphim hunt/dilemma between Roflcopter and the other people.

Q4. How much HP did Cybele, Xylthixlm and zwetschenwasser start with?
A4. Cybele, Xylthixlm and zwetschenwasser all started with full HP. (Mar 29, 2009 8:49 pm)
Notes: Trying to target middle-of-the-road people with the same result I got in the first investigation I had. Didn't work.

Q5. How many Fallen angels are there?
A5. There are more Fallen angels than Ophanim. (Mar 29, 2009 8:50 pm)

Q6. Is DGB one of the Ophan?
A6. DrippingGoofball has the eyes of one of the Ophanim. (Mar 31, 2009 11:53 am)
Notes: I was hoping he was lying, but then it also brought about the possibility of a Fallen Ophan

Q7. Is Xyl one of the Fallen angels?
A7. Xylthixlm is one of my best angels. (Mar 31, 2009 12:02 pm)
Notes: I was obviously suspecting Xyl heavily, because of his reaction toward me.

Q8. What is Xyl's Angel's name?(If I'm Metatron, who is he?)
A8. Xyl's Angelic name is Xylthixlm. (Mar 31, 2009 8:23 pm)
Notes: I was hoping he'd say Lucifer because of my last result.

[Tenchi]

After Question 8, I was frustrated and logged out. When I came back, I was dead.

[Tenchi]

Oh god... I was so annoyed at that time. Looking back, what discouraged me is Tajo and several others jumping on my wagon. Tajo was disappointing for me especially, since I trusted him the whole game.

I thought I was killed by a calculated scum group, the type of people who log in and do things at the exact minute, since the number of rage points seemed to be so exact, which then I don't blame Xyl for posting the number of rage points used like that (I thought Xyl was 100% scum after that "slip").

[Tenchi]

I forget - why didn't tenchi claim?

Could he have verified?

I was wary of claiming because:

1. I was trying to squeeze as much as I can from the role
2. I haven't got anything remotely useful, if revealed
3. Some of the answers are so weird, I'd look suspicious and get lynched

[Tenchi]

So wait... q21, you were the only one behind all the Rage?

[Tenchi]

# Why did everyone go braindead when DGB 'confirmed' Xyl and start treating her as town? That's a one-way confirmation, folks... and in any case, leaving DGB alive in the endgame when nobody mattered but the Seraphs and "Michael" was odd.

<--- GUILTY.

[Tenchi]

I couldn't believe Kinetic was lynched! I wonder what the motives were.

There was a running theory debate between "let's play carefully and with concencuss!" and "let's lynch fast!" at the start of the game. Both sides made sense to me, both sides had reasonable arguments, but for some reason both sides decided that the other side was scum trying to hurt the town. Not surprisingly, the "let's lynch 'em fast" people generally lynched the "let's wait for general agreement" people first, lol.

This was so true. I think we forgot the part where we turn to suspect the people in the middle. The thing is, the two townie 'factions' killed each other, and their leaders remained.

[Tenchi]

I still don't know why the hell anyone hurt Xyl after DGB confirmed him, though. That was a total headscratcher. I'd have been for killing DGB to confirm xyl, but sadly, he was dead before i could get to a computer that evening. Then when he died, no-one wanted to hurt DGB anymore.

I thought Xyl was being scum confirmed. We (as scum) did this in one other game and it works perfectly when the end game is nearing since it reduces the number of fellow scum that could get hit at the end.

[Tenchi]

This was not the sort of game for scum to pseudo-confirm another, especially given the handicap of losing Shinnen on day 1. We literally couldn't afford a single scum lynch, let alone two.

This is good insight.

[Tenchi]

When q21 received 6 (and then 12) RP in quick succession, there should have been a pause of 'the plan' and a mass healing. Unless every Loyal Angel had actually given up, and didn't care if he was actually Michael or not.

I wasn't town in this game, but I think the townies were so relieved to have a muscular champion that they refused to consider the possibility of a SK.

I was shocked they believed it so easily after a Metatron was revealed!

[Tenchi]

Town should NEVER have let Rage Points stand unanswered. I forget who mentioned this during the game, but it was absolutely spot-on correct, even if you disagree with using Heals to counteract Hurts. It doesn't matter if you end up "healing scum", you're negating a massive advantage. Town started off able to heal 100 points of damage a week, ffs! Even mid-late game, scum couldn't have afforded to buck that idea if town hadn't already been hellbent on rejecting it, so they'd have had to heal up Raged survivors too or risk outing themselves.

When q21 received 6 (and then 12) RP in quick succession, there should have been a pause of 'the plan' and a mass healing. Unless every Loyal Angel had actually given up, and didn't care if he was actually Michael or not.

I think people were so scared because the culture was defined as those people who do healing are "stalling" the game for scum to build rage points. I never thought of healing that way until you said it. ><

[Tenchi]

/pre in

OH PLEASE NOT A METATORN K THNX. :p

Flay: How did you envision the Metatron role to have worked. I do understand it was not meant to confirm anyone, but what was it for then? I think I really failed to understand the entire dynamic of the whole setup until now.

[Tenchi]

this game accounts for more than 1/5 of my total game posts. that is sad. i spent at least 1/5 of my posting output on mafiascum failing miserably.

<--- similarly sad