War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[The Fonz]

?
[*]Why didn't ANYBODY question the wisdom of scum having a 'cap' of 6 RP in a game with mass healing available?!?

I never thought there was any kind of cap. I mean, if someone had suggested the idea, i'd have rejected it on the grounds that it made the game unbalanced towards town.

And yeah; town would have done better to not be QUITE so agressive; town DOES want to lynch about once a week or so, so the scum don't get too many free hits, but more then that and the accuracy of the lynch starts to drop a lot and that costs the town. If I'm town in a game like this next time, I probably would support some kind of hypo-voting system.

See the post Xyl made early on, on the (entirely reasonable) assumption that scum rage accrued every sunday. Every three days appeared to give us twice as many mislynches as once a week.

[Kinetic]

Was DGB a Ophan then? She got me - before I revealed... Lucky guess?

Sorry, yes, first post is updated. DGB was a Fallen Ophan, and she caught you right out of the gate. Fallen team had two Seraphs (Shinnen, Nuwen), an Arel (Giuseppe/Yosarian2), and a weak power role (Ophan). The Ophan was specifically designed to catch (Satan and) town Ophanim, as someone suggested in thread.

Whoever said it before, I agree, I think this game was lost because of aggressive players on both town and scum sides. If this igame had been played at a normal pace I think more (including me) could have got more involved. Instead it was in turbo mode the whole friggin time.

I agree. I think this is simultaneously the second-longest Large Theme Game on the site, and the fastest Large Game

ever

(haven't verified that part yet). Town almost totally ignored its most powerful ability, Healing, in favor of ultrafast kills, and most of those had nothing near a consensus. Several people actually had really good ideas for how to utilize the setup by pseudovoting or mass healing between lynches, but the people driving their 'vig' kills made the rest of you panick, I think. Yes, just like the first game.

That was actually part of my balancing act for this game, actually. See, after Shinnen died the Fallen team

could not kill outright

six of the fifteen Loyal roles, or Satan/Michael (I'm still laughing over that claim). If you'd topped everyone up and stayed focused on killing one person at a time, there'd have been almost nothing they could do to kill pro-town-looking angels. DGB and Giuseppe could each store a maximum of 3 Rage, and Nuwen could store 4. That's only 10 HP damage; they'd have to do three more in-thread before they could kill a Seraph or Arel or Metatron. That's why I couldn't confirm anybody directly to Tenchi; confirmed Loyal Angels would have totally thrown the game for Fallen.

God, how many times did I say that healing was the towns most powerful weapon? -.-;;;;;;;;;

Heal-phobia was a MAJOR contributor to this town loss.

We didn't know about the rage cap.

Are you kidding? You accepted EVERYTHING else about rage generation and THAT is what you conveniently forgot? You, Rolf, and ABR were SOOOOO focused on never letting scum accumulate rage that you forgot the rage cap...

Instead of slowing down and building cases, and maybe letting the scum have a few rage kills in return for some GOOD, SERIOUS lynches, you let the town run wild, and then attacked EVERYONE who tried to get control of it.

You were so afraid that if we slowed down that you would die that you let anyone who might be a target die first just so you could stay alive. That is what happened.

Town lost this game. Scum played pretty well, but town could have won and decided to lose spectacularly instead.

Copter and Fonz = confirmed town. Come ON. It was totally obvious.

I would have nailed Rofl to the ground as a town player, and for good reason. Town or scum, he single-handedly caused the most non-rage damage to town in this game.

I tried to show that to the town and got killed for my efforts. -.-;

[Yosarian2]

And yeah; town would have done better to not be QUITE so agressive; town DOES want to lynch about once a week or so, so the scum don't get too many free hits, but more then that and the accuracy of the lynch starts to drop a lot and that costs the town. If I'm town in a game like this next time, I probably would support some kind of hypo-voting system.

See the post Xyl made early on, on the (entirely reasonable) assumption that scum rage accrued every sunday. Every three days appeared to give us twice as many mislynches as once a week.

Hmm. Eh, I suppose the extra rage points per mislynch screwed with that. (Although that was dangerous; if town had figured out that mechanic, they could possibly have figured out how many scum were on each townie wagon)

Still, even if the scum just got 1 rage point/scum/week, that's still only 4 damage/week, or basically 1 scum kill every 2 weeks, more or less. If town lynched once a week, and didn't do a lot of extra random damage to other people, town still controls a lot more of the kills then in a "normal" game, and with a little more time to think (and perhaps a fake-voting system like Tajo was suggesting to keep things a little more controlled) I suspect town would lynch right a lot more often.

Basically, from the point when you were under attack, Fonz, town had enough info to basically figure out who the scum were, if they had taken the time to do a full analysis and figure out who had attacked who when. They couldn't, though, because they didn't have enough time to go through the whole thread and do that kind of analysis, or anywhere close to it; if town had moved a little slower, we might have lost.

[The Fonz]

uot;]We didn't know about the rage cap.

Are you kidding? You accepted EVERYTHING else about rage generation and THAT is what you conveniently forgot? You, Rolf, and ABR were SOOOOO focused on never letting scum accumulate rage that you forgot the rage cap...

What do you mean, forgot? There was no evidence of a rage cap! If there had been, I'd have acted completely differently. What do you think all those arguments about 'scum is going to kill SOMEONE' were about?

[The Fonz]

And yeah; town would have done better to not be QUITE so agressive; town DOES want to lynch about once a week or so, so the scum don't get too many free hits, but more then that and the accuracy of the lynch starts to drop a lot and that costs the town. If I'm town in a game like this next time, I probably would support some kind of hypo-voting system.

See the post Xyl made early on, on the (entirely reasonable) assumption that scum rage accrued every sunday. Every three days appeared to give us twice as many mislynches as once a week.

Hmm. Eh, I suppose the extra rage points per mislynch screwed with that. (Although that was dangerous; if town had figured out that mechanic, they could possibly have figured out how many scum were on each townie wagon)

Still, even if the scum just got 1 rage point/scum/week, that's still only 4 damage/week, or basically 1 scum kill every 2 weeks, more or less. If town lynched once a week, and didn't do a lot of extra random damage to other people, town still controls a lot more of the kills then in a "normal" game, and with a little more time to think (and perhaps a fake-voting system like Tajo was suggesting to keep things a little more controlled) I suspect town would lynch right a lot more often.

But we didn't think they got 1/week: my working assumption was that given the extra size of the game, scum would get two or three rage points each per week.

Basically, from the point when you were under attack, Fonz, town had enough info to basically figure out who the scum were, if they had taken the time to do a full analysis and figure out who had attacked who when. They couldn't, though, because they didn't have enough time to go through the whole thread and do that kind of analysis, or anywhere close to it; if town had moved a little slower, we might have lost.

The thing is, Yos, we figured that, because the scum was getting all that rage, we had to kill and kill quickly before more rage accumulated.

[Nuwen]

What do you mean, forgot? There was no evidence of a rage cap! If there had been, I'd have acted completely differently. What do you think all those arguments about 'scum is going to kill SOMEONE' were about?

Inaccurate. I actually quoted a piece of the mini about a cap on rage to Tajo in-thread, and that same piece of information was available to anyone inclined to seek it out.

I think people are overestimating the importance of Seraphim (the role, not the player).

A Seraph has 1/3 hp than a Cherub.
A Seraph does 1/3 more damage per day than a Cherub.

That is not much of a power role.

It is still more powerful. Specially in a possible situation of 2 Seraphim scum left.
Ill have to hunt the quote where Flay explained that Scum Angels accrue rage points also in relation to their roles, making the Seraphim role even more powerful if scum.

This?

The only extra ability scum had, besides the ability to communicate secretly, was a Rage Point they could spend on a secret attack. RPs were accumulated weekly, to a maximum of 3 or 4 depending on what type of angel they were.

[The Fonz]

I can only speak for myself, but if anyone HAD ACTUALLY MENTIONED THAT RAGE CAP WHEN ARGUING FOR THE PSEUDOVOTE SYSTEM, I would have accepted it.

The following quote appears to suggest that Xyl was in the same boat:

No, there's no way to deadlock. Eventually the scum get enough rage points that they can just kill someone from full health, and boom! You can't heal the dead. Repeat until all townies are gone.

[DrippingGoofball]

I couldn't believe Kinetic was lynched! I wonder what the motives were.

[Kinetic]

I couldn't believe Kinetic was lynched! I wonder what the motives were.

Because most of my arguments (especially seeing the set up now) were right on the money?

[DrippingGoofball]

Because most of my arguments (especially seeing the set up now) were right on the money?

But who drove your wagon, scum or town? I don't recall. I'm sure you do!

[Yosarian2]

I couldn't believe Kinetic was lynched! I wonder what the motives were.

There was a running theory debate between "let's play carefully and with concencuss!" and "let's lynch fast!" at the start of the game. Both sides made sense to me, both sides had reasonable arguments, but for some reason both sides decided that the other side was scum trying to hurt the town. Not surprisingly, the "let's lynch 'em fast" people generally lynched the "let's wait for general agreement" people first, lol.

[The Fonz]

Well, not really. Tajo was the main 'wait for agreement' guy and outlived any of the aggressive faction.

[Yosarian2]

Well, not really. Tajo was the main 'wait for agreement' guy and outlived any of the aggressive faction.

True, true. Still, I do think the theory disagreement was the main reason rofl and Albert lynched Kinetic.

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, right, two other things that made me shake my head:

1. Why did everyone go braindead when DGB 'confirmed' Xyl and start treating her as town? That's a one-way confirmation, folks... and in any case, leaving DGB alive in the endgame when nobody mattered but the Seraphs and "Michael" was odd.
2. I'm amused that if q21's revised kill list had been followed, Yos2 would have died early and things could have been very different. WHY didn't you randomize the list or follow a dead townie's list, rather than a list that could be manipulated by those (scum) still alive? That really cost town/q21 the endgame IMO, and somebody called it in thread (Firestarter?). There was zero incentive for scum to follow it through to completion if
   either
   Seraphim was Fallen...

[The Fonz]

The most scummy thing Kinetic did, for me, was continually call for himself to be healed. Just looked like self-preserving scum.

Going v/la, letting town lynch town and wait for the fallout, does seem to be a good scum tactic, lol.

[Tenchi]

# Why did everyone go braindead when DGB 'confirmed' Xyl and start treating her as town? That's a one-way confirmation, folks... and in any case, leaving DGB alive in the endgame when nobody mattered but the Seraphs and "Michael" was odd.

<--- GUILTY.

[populartajo]

Fonz and ABR, at least rolf has apologized for one of the worst plays of you in many time.

[The Fonz]

I still don't know why the hell anyone hurt Xyl after DGB confirmed him, though. That was a total headscratcher. I'd have been for killing DGB to confirm xyl, but sadly, he was dead before i could get to a computer that evening. Then when he died, no-one wanted to hurt DGB anymore.

[DrippingGoofball]

...and in any case, leaving DGB alive in the endgame when nobody mattered but the Seraphs and "Michael" was odd.

Q21 was very quick and very firm in 'confirming' me. It was clear that he was hesitating to use his points while I was watching, and maybe that's why he dumped the whole load on a player hoping that his target would be scum, and confirm himself. As long as I didn't die and show up as scum, his SK keister was covered. Q21 may have a different version of the event, haha.

I'm amused that if q21's revised kill list had been followed, Yos2 would have died early and things could have been very different.

We couldn't win unless we had an uninterrupted string of mislynches. I would have fought tooth and nail for Yosarian and Nuwen to die last, with any argument I could come up with. Q21 would have had to back me up, because he made me a townie.

Nuwen was great with the numbers game, and she knew the exact moment it was safe to blow our own cover.

[Tenchi]

I couldn't believe Kinetic was lynched! I wonder what the motives were.

There was a running theory debate between "let's play carefully and with concencuss!" and "let's lynch fast!" at the start of the game. Both sides made sense to me, both sides had reasonable arguments, but for some reason both sides decided that the other side was scum trying to hurt the town. Not surprisingly, the "let's lynch 'em fast" people generally lynched the "let's wait for general agreement" people first, lol.

This was so true. I think we forgot the part where we turn to suspect the people in the middle. The thing is, the two townie 'factions' killed each other, and their leaders remained.

[Tenchi]

I still don't know why the hell anyone hurt Xyl after DGB confirmed him, though. That was a total headscratcher. I'd have been for killing DGB to confirm xyl, but sadly, he was dead before i could get to a computer that evening. Then when he died, no-one wanted to hurt DGB anymore.

I thought Xyl was being scum confirmed. We (as scum) did this in one other game and it works perfectly when the end game is nearing since it reduces the number of fellow scum that could get hit at the end.

[DrippingGoofball]

I still don't know why the hell anyone hurt Xyl after DGB confirmed him, though. That was a total headscratcher. I'd have been for killing DGB to confirm xyl, but sadly, he was dead before i could get to a computer that evening. Then when he died, no-one wanted to hurt DGB anymore.

I chose to 'watch' Xyl because there were so many aggressive townies going against him with krap cases, that his death, or his confirmation, would make the largest possible number of players look bad, and/or become insecure and thus less aggressive.

[DrippingGoofball]

I thought Xyl was being scum confirmed. We (as scum) did this in one other game and it works perfectly when the end game is nearing since it reduces the number of fellow scum that could get hit at the end.

Xyl was settled aboard the Speedlynch Express, and his seatbelt was locked. If we were both scum, we would both died, sooner than later.

This was not the sort of game for scum to pseudo-confirm another, especially given the handicap of losing Shinnen on day 1. We literally couldn't afford a single scum lynch, let alone two.

[Yosarian2]

Nuwen was great with the numbers game, and she knew the exact moment it was safe to blow our own cover.

(nods)

I know it looked silly I was still trying to get q21 to nuke Rofl even when it was 3 vs. 3, but I was still a bit worried about q21's "zeal points"; I really had no idea how many he had, it seemed like the only chance left that we might lose would be if q21 had some absurd amount of zeal points built up already, and if he and Rofl did a co-ordinated strike on, say, DGB and killed her fast; it wasn't likely, but I don't take chances on unknown variables like that.

Plus, I thought getting q21 to nuke rofl would be worth extra style points.

[Mr. Flay]

This was not the sort of game for scum to pseudo-confirm another, especially given the handicap of losing Shinnen on day 1. We literally couldn't afford a single scum lynch, let alone two.

I not-so-secretly hate extremely bussing gambits, which is one reason I like this setup; it punishes scum for throwing each other off the cliff too early.