Mini Normal 2258 | Bunnies [Postgame]

[Datisi]

i will say that it probably rules out iv/math because that would require town to have only two (2) power roles, and have scum have a way to counter the town's one and only investigative, and frankly if that's the case i am never touching an isis setup ever again

1-0 in math/iv
1-2 in ari/andres

i'm tired i will attempt to come up with a non-nonsense worldview tomorrow

try to not shit out 20 pages while i sleep, please

[Datisi]

i am never touching an isis setup ever again

Datisi please do not blame the setup. We are responsible for our own victories and losses.

if isis made a setup that consisted of
a n2 vig
a weak fruity vendor nonsense
and a scum blocker that could not only interfere with that, but give false ducking innos

i will unfriend isis on facebook

[Datisi]

I WILL UNFOLLOW HER ON TWITTER

[Datisi]

(for any legal ogi matters, that is a joke, i don't even have a twitter)

pedit: i mean, first i thought that was an obvious satire, second it's my way of emphasizing how much i do not believe in math/iv

[Datisi]

i don't think math is one of those players you can clear on effort unfortunately

[Datisi]

why not shoot mathblade if they're t/t, house said he was gonna be mad sus of iv

but then again, he has said... a lot of things this game...

[Datisi]

locks in me miller

i know arguing with math is absolutely pointless but i have to point out that in no universe is this the case

[Datisi]

roles do not have to have "a point" in a setup

scum sometimes claims nonsense bullshit solely because town eats it up

a50 is known for fakeclaiming

[Datisi]

like i said, i am not gonna argue with you because i know that when you're convinced you're right, i have better luck talking to a wall, but in no universe is it iv-town > math must be town too

[Datisi]

I just realized something

it makes 0 sense for iv to investigate me

he had his vote parked on me at mylo with mathblade for a whole day

if im town and hes town, i should be quickhammered from his pov unless mathblade is scum

he clearly doesnt think mathblade is scum

so why would iv town even investigate someone who from his pov should be locked scum ?

it literally makes 0 sense he shouldve targetted either datisi or andres to look for potential partner.

good shit

iv get in here and start doing things

[Datisi]

how is that fact relevant to literally ANYTHING that ari wrote there

[Datisi]

the vote was there long enough for me and andres to hammer

i was around for the whole day and if i'm scum who can hammer, i watch the thread like a hawk

there's no need for me to guide ari towards iv when i can literally just sit on my ass and wait for you to vote her

gn for real

[Datisi]

it was the middle of the day for me and i was home the whole time and nope not engaging with a wall

[Datisi]

i lied i spent the day sleeping and working on a project i'm getting sick of by now

I don't really think MathBlade is scum although I could be wrong if he's just playing strong deepwolf trying to lim Ari,

and the mech seems to support that

. So it's likely Ari is scum here based on her own argument, although I still have some pretty big doubts that Datisi/Andres would actually quickhammer. I do feel like they would've figured out a way to move faster to kill town!Ari though

what do you mean by the bolded?

Datisi I thought I knew how to read but I think I might've been misreading him lately which I don't want to talk about, I also just don't get any alignment indicative vibes from his posts.

what was this about?

[Datisi]

i don't know, sorry. i want to see whatever he comes up with today.

[Datisi]

IV => Unlikely scum then no TPRs plus no scum motive to CC about House not being vig.

you find it more likely that iv is a role that can get maybe one result, has at least two false results if not more, and scum gets a full on fucking blocker as compensation?

[Datisi]

don't think town!ascetic scum!iv makes sense because that would mean they were so afraid of house becomingconfirmed (who was very likely talking bullshit) that they decided to bet on v checking exactly ari (which would probably be very unlikely based on his posts yesterday) OR they accepted him just having an extra result.

so i think it had to have been some blocking-esque power if he's town, and the reason i say "full" is because why tf would they have a shot at n4 otherwise

maybe even-night but that's still very lame

and scum having some sorta blocker would also imply that baltar was capable of producing false innos that aren't easily expected which feels very messed up on a lot of ways

[Datisi]

should i type "in a lot of ways" or "on a lot of levels"? "on a lot of ways" it is

[Datisi]

i really don't think ari shoots house here if iv's town, considering house is defending her, hates me, hates andres, and said that he's voting iv if iv is alive

[Datisi]

i'm wondering if any teams can be rules out

like, iv/math is ruled out via mech
ari/math is probably? rules out because holy shit the theatre?

so math is either scum with exactly andres or he's town

ok that's A Start

[Datisi]

i really don't think ari shoots house here if iv's town, considering house is defending her, hates me, hates andres, and said that he's voting iv if iv is alive

I think either she is traitor and it’s out of her hands or she is wifoming or it’s you + Andres.

either she's a traitor or groupscum or she's town

i am sensing math is town, iv is scum, and this is going to shit fast

[Datisi]

though in that universe, iv must have decided to sheep math when it was really convenient to do so, i.e. when math's reads were ass-backwards

will actually try to get that figured out tomorrow

[Datisi]

how does this pass review if iv is town? how the hell does town get a basically n2 gunsmith (which has plenty of bad results here) in exchange for scum having a blocker and being able to create a disaster if they block baltar (who has EVERY REASON TO CRUMB THE NIGHT BEFORE) and he ends up targeting scum?

[Datisi]

Why does IV CC House vig claim?
Why does IV use a weak ass “no result” claim when a “Ari is scum” likely wins him the game?

iv didn't cc anything? and i think he loses almost any 1v1 he is put into here. like, do you really think scum!iv manages to outpost me or you or ari? or shit, even andres?

[Datisi]

if they have a rolestopper, same problem
jailkeeper, same problem

even the fucking ascetic runs into the same problem

the possibility of a doc is irrelevant considering he got a no result

[Datisi]

IV CC’d House specifically asking if House is the vig before doing so

what, quote where this happened, because iv never counterclaimed house

and i'm not talking about interest
i'm offering an explanation for why scum!iv does not fake a guilty in this universe we live in

[Datisi]

Rolestopper has to guess the target
Making it much less utility for scum.
Jailkeeper or RB less likely than Rolestopper

vp has to crumb his target
and scum rolestoppers are very likely to target their buddies anyway

ari, i don't wanna be making judgement calls on the setup before i see it in full, but it feels that way

[Datisi]

To be clear House is the vigilante right, If I’m seeing this correctly

Okay - I’m a town even nights Gunsmith. I Checked Something Smart last night and he did have a gun in flavor

Hi sorry guys - this game has been moving rly fast and I haven’t put much time here

I have information that Something Smart is probably scum, I would maybe be like 95% on it

VOTE: Something Smart

@Datisi here is where he counter claimed House vig

no? that is where he made sure house is claiming vig in order to know whether his "has gun" result on s_s is because s_s is scum or vig???

[Datisi]

and the reason scum!iv wouldn't be able to fake this incredibly basic thing to fake is...?

[Datisi]

it's clear the two of you will not agree on anything, so can you lower your spam a bit so that iv and andres do not have even more excuses for not contributing?

[Datisi]

you know what ELSE a dead townie agreed on? that iv is scum if he survives the night!!! and that townie got shot!!! he got shot even though you are literally cleared town!!!!! imagine that!!!!!!

[Datisi]

His reads were utter garbage as he disregarded everything.

is this not the PERFECT person to being to 5p?

[Datisi]

like what

Now this is in bad faith

I already outlined it

I won’t spam the thread

i actually have no clue what those are either

[Datisi]

i am awake and i am utterly (not) surprised there has been no quickhammer

[Datisi]

i am still awake

i am slightly creeped out by the silence but what can you do

[Datisi]

Just tell me you're town again Dats.

i'm town :<

[Datisi]

the more obvious Partner for IV is Mathblade

why am i a possible partner to ari but not to iv? and also i'm pretty sure this team ^^ makes no sense since it would BOTH leave town with only having two power roles and have scum be able to block baltar's invest and ruin it, so

[Datisi]

Pretty sure if it is IV + Andres Andres doesn’t want to be locked into voting Ari first.

Mainly unless IV cross votes as expected since every team that could have quickhammered IV I likely will vote IV.

He said he is back on Saturday so I expect a vote by then from him.

not sure what this post means? especially the middle part

[Datisi]

if you think andres can only be scum with iv, wouldn't him "pivoting to the next day" be him preparing to vote iv? like, if he votes ari and you vote her out, there will be no next day then

[Datisi]

oh, considering apparently you and ari can't talk to each other without screaming, do i get to be the negotiator? fun

[Datisi]

the more obvious Partner for IV is Mathblade

why am i a possible partner to ari but not to iv? and also i'm pretty sure this team ^^ makes no sense since it would BOTH leave town with only having two power roles and have scum be able to block baltar's invest and ruin it, so

You’re really only talking IV, because Mathblade as a Named Townie isn’t much of a threat to any Scum Team you come up with.

sorry, i don't get it, what do you mean by this?

and like, how do you define this post as getting upset? i was asking why you're considering one team but not a different one. is that unreasonable to ask?

[Datisi]

datisi + mathblade

- would've hammered

datisi + andres

- would've hammered
datisi + ari
datisi + iv

mathblade + andres

- would've hammered
mathblade + ari

mathblade + iv

- makes no sense mechanically
andres + ari
andres + iv
ari + iv

dats/ari, dats/iv,

math/ari

, andres/ari, andres/iv, ari/iv

i don't think the team is math/ari because my god, that would be some spectacular scum theatre

okay, fine, going back to when iv said he'll sheep math

[Datisi]

I think as long as you try your best I am fine with the result

My top theory is Andres traitor and you main wolf.
Either that or Andres traitor Datisi main wolf

Or in a traditional scum world you + House
Or you + Datisi

Can you convince me you’re town here?

this is the first post of math's reads prior to iv saying he'll sheep math, if we ignore some vague paranoia-house posts that didn't really go anywhere

and uh

it sure did call people scum, alright

[Datisi]

then, notice who laplacian townreads.

house

(174),

rtp

(175),

frogster

&

datisi

(458). flipped town, cleared town, andres's hard townread, and frogster. notice a pattern?

(also, sidenote, i just noticed

the one and only scumread laplacian had was innocentvillager

in 203, haha. anyway.)

hehehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Datisi]

I think RTP being the kill over me and House strongly suggests either me/VP are scum given that we were both in their solve. It's too wifomy of a kill if both me and VP are town and I really don't see why scum wouldn't just let koba deathtunnel town!VP

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Datisi]

ok i'll stop shitposting

for the record, i still really want an answer to 5231 because i have a hunch what that was about

[Datisi]

i had some sorta idea about this game while i was on my walk earlier but i forgor

[Datisi]

nothing out of the ordinary, it's kind of a ghost town right now

the moon was really pretty though, and yesterday night i risked a painful injury by climbing some steep sharp rocks in the dark to get onto a monument in order to take a solid picture

i survived and it turned out not too bad

[Datisi]

from town!you pov, you just got confirmation that scum can indeed fuck up baltar's clears, so the fact that you're just handwaving it away is lol

and the schadd game is over

[Datisi]

from town!you pov, you just got confirmation that scum can indeed fuck up baltar's clears, so the fact that you're just handwaving it away is lol

and the schadd game is over

??? Not seeing this at all.

Ari ascetic would still work and not mess with anything.

scum!ascetic!ari would still be a false innocent if targeted by baltar

but that's not even my point, my point is that innocentvillager got confirmation that *something* can block actions, and the fact that he isn't even thinking about the possibility of you being falsely cleared from that when we're in lylo is telling

[Datisi]

And oh I see. Yeah that was in reference to that game. I probably thought you were a candidate for scum at that point in time as the PoE narrowed in that game but I only loosely followed along

what were you thinking about me in this game as compared to me in schadd's game?

[Datisi]

okay, just for you ari:

Spoiler:

[Datisi]

Datisi why haven’t you voted? One way or the other?

i have never voted early in yelo as town (barring having mechanical information that someone is scum). i can show precedent if needed, but basically i don't want to lose the game so i'll probably be relooking at things *a lot* before voting

to be fair, i was thinking about voting innocentvillager earlier, since that is where i'm most likely going to end up on, and if you're (math) scum, might as well let you hammer immediately as opposed to draggng this game out for god knows how long, but i am not *quite* yet willing to bet the game on not being andres/ari so i didn't.

the current thought process is that iv is likely scum, and i'm not sure that is going to change without some good input from him. i also want to relook at s_s's arguments about mechanics, because i am still thinking about that one time a normal game was lost because we didn't listen to him. but i'm also thinking about that one time a game was lost because we *did* listen to him so you know, basically i don't wanna be here.

[Datisi]

i reread s_s's iso, and i wish i could say it helped me. he was scumreading iv before the claim, afterwards he voted against andres for saying the solution might not be all in the vt claims (and after that andres had a weird sequence of posts where he townbinned all of iv, math, s_s, but whatever).

one potentially interesting detail is that s_s commented "it would make sense if this game has a gunsmith" long before iv claimed gunsmith.

[Datisi]

IV claimed gunsmith with result on SS

one possibility is that iv was likely to die either way so he decided to try to take someone out with him. the other and, imo more likely scenario is that he did have information that s_s was a vigilante. gunsmith isn't a town-only role.

[Datisi]

yeah, why?

[Datisi]

i'm sorry ._. i want to be present in this game and actually be doing something, but i feel like it's not gonna go anywhere without those two

[Datisi]

not gonna lie, i will be slightly upset if you're scum doing this to me. just like, very slightly.

i hope we win together :< i think we do but i wish i was able to say for certain.

[Datisi]

This game is almost over anyway.

this sounds like you know there's not going to be a day 6 >_>

and not really, i'm about to go sleep, and i don't think it's fair to others to spam the thread with non-game-related stuff. also the ate is getting to me, and i am trying to get myself to make an objective decision, so uh. you know.

[Datisi]

you mean in-game or out-of-game? not much in-game, i'm basically stuck in my "iv prob scum?" mindset until he proves me wrong or right. out-of-game, i'm thinking if i should go to bed when i've been having insomnia the past few nights...

[Datisi]

Datisi has been uncharacteristically passive towards me this game and his stance going from "town by mechclear from SS" to "yeah IV probscum" is kind of ?? but admittedly there might be more context there I'm missing so I'm willing to wait for him to explain.

i don't think i've been more "passive" at you than in other games - if i'm aware that it takes me a while to read someone right, i'm likely to not expel energy for that early. as for the stance change, what is there to explain? s_s is better at mechanics that i am, he said all of you/math/him have to be town, he was conftown by virtue of being a vig, i had to let it go. but *now*, when you being town would mean there must be some sort of blocking bullshit in play, and s_s isn't alive to help out, it's not so simple anymore.

because like, the only thing you had going for you was your claim and the fact s_s was defending you. but now, mech situation has changed, and also *you have not died*. there is a very simple answer for "why is the claimed power role continuously not dying?" that i'm sure all of koba, baltar, and andres know very well. and in my experience, if you are expecting one nightkill going into yelo, and a different nightkill happens, something is *very* wrong with your worldview, because scum very rarely actually goes for the wifom game. and i was expecting you to die.

[Datisi]

@innocentvillager

And oh I see. Yeah that was in reference to that game. I probably thought you were a candidate for scum at that point in time as the PoE narrowed in that game but I only loosely followed along

what were you thinking about me in this game as compared to me in schadd's game?

i want an answer to this. i know you said you forgot or whatever but retrace your steps and think back to what you were thinking.

[Datisi]

I want Datisi to act.

is there a reason why you're suddenly so... i dunno, annoyed about me being slow in yelo? (and like, i get people usually are annoyed at me for it, hear me out.) if you're already settled on who you're going to vote, and hell you were settled yesterday, why do you want me to vote first? and like, i already said what my current plans are, and they are voting iv. so i don't get posts like 5510 where you want me to "be more obvious" because like i said where i am leaning? i've seen people be annoyed at me, but this feels like some weird nervousness, and i'm not sure i like it

[Datisi]

part of me does not believe andres is physically capable of rolling scum on mafiascum dot net

there's also the paranoia that you/iv are s/s, but if that's the case then we guaranteed have a tomorrow to worry about that and it's definitely nowhere close to the top of the list

but yeah, i guess. i do find it confusing why he hasn't voted yet, because i don't think he's voting anywhere other than you, so i'm trying to figure out what does that ~*mean*~

so like, why did you call that out >_>

[Datisi]

like, if this is ari/andres, which is realisitically my biggest obstacle for voting iv

why does andres do this bullshit? why would he stall like this and risk shaking my currently-wrong worldview? when he can just vote ari, wait for me to vote iv (because i think it's fairly easy o guess that town-math wouldn't quickhammer ari for the lulz here) and then swap to iv for the win? like

pain

[Datisi]

The most paranoid player I know still left is probably Datisi, and they’re the only player I see concluding that House was actually a PR, and shooting there to avoid any shenanigans with a potential role.

funny this is that i actually did try to reason out what power role house could possibly be that would be revealed that late in the game, and would be confirmed town. a n4 vig, a n4 friendly neighbour, and a n4 ic were the only possibilities. none of them were anywhere close to likely, and keeping a loose cannon townie who just fakeclaimed for the umpteenth time this game would be extremely valuable in yelo. and even if he did get confirmed, it's still valuable to have him here instead of mathblade who's gonna be going through every possible scenario and grilling us.

I had reached the conclusion that you’re Town as a derivative of how I’ve been looking at the game, and the mechanical certainty that you’re a Gunsmith, and I think this Town is too weak without your role in play in some fashion. I don’t think there’s a Rolestopper / Jailkeeper on the Scum side, since I agree it’s too strong and makes the game far too Scum sided.

[snip]

I also think the player least likely to be Scum is Mathblade. Mechanically, I don’t see it. I don’t see how we have a false clear.

so... if you think that innocentvillager is town, then you *must* think that there is something on the scum side that can block or somehow otherwise stop night actions. if you believe that, how do you "mechanically don't see math being a false clear"?

[Datisi]

If you want to make the most idiotic move in Mafia ever by randomly voting for a player in ELo outside of the established 1v1, by all means.

wait, hold up, did you yourself do this in the first game we played together? since when are you against this?

[Datisi]

^no I don’t. Aristeia could be Ascetic. What?

riiight, the one mechanical scenario where iv is town and math is unable to be falsely cleared. carry on.

[Datisi]

If you want to make the most idiotic move in Mafia ever by randomly voting for a player in ELo outside of the established 1v1, by all means.

wait, hold up, did you yourself do this in the first game we played together? since when are you against this?

Go look at that game, and the strategic point I made that lead to my vote, and then come back here. I’m giving you the chance not to make yourself look foolish.

okay, i lost interest.

[Datisi]

Neither of them scumread me and so necessarily the game is solved for them.

how is the game solved for me again?

[Datisi]

that isn't a solved game though. my solve is iv/andres currently, but it can be wrong, the game isn't solved for me.

[Datisi]

i'm guessing ari. that's my current bet. but again, that is not a "solved game".

if this game were solved for me, it would be much easier than whatever this is. yes, i know i've been slacking off, shut up.

[Datisi]

you're an investigative and you're not dead

not only were you not dead last night, you also weren't dead on n1

the person that (1) really shouldn't have died last night (2) said you're scum if you're alive died instead of you last night

you being town means scum has means of making baltar generate a false inno, which is x10 worse than a false guilty

like i'm not about to pretend that i have a rock solid scumcase on you based on day play or whatever, i don't,

due to you literally not even playing this game

, but pretending i don't have reasons for wanting to vote you is wrong

[Datisi]

also the weird dissonance of not even suspecting mathblade after apparently having information that there is a scum blocker in play, and due to the person clearing math having basically announced that he was going to invest that slot the night before

[Datisi]

if you've abandoned mech, then you should have abandoned the clear on math

did you do that?

[Datisi]

I think you should have some opinion of my dayplay by now.

pedit: I talked about my Math read and yes I did abandon mech for him. I think he's town here by dayplay.

my only opinion on your dayplay is that the suspicion/conversation with andres feels kinda awkward and makes me think you're distancing lole

where did you talk about math again? i skimmed your iso, i don't see it, other than a generic "math twon by dlayplay"

[Datisi]

do the scores have to add up to 10

i guess i'd say
ari+iv 1/10
ari+andres 2.5/10
iv+andres 6.5/10

[Datisi]

because i don't think ari lolsheeps me onto BOTH of her scumbuddies on day one. and because i don't think iv agrees to yeet her yesterday when you voted her without as much as saying anything, literally a naked vote. and i also had some other thoughts on the subject of "what from ari's side looked really non-partnery with iv" but like, if you want that, that's happening tomorrow since 2:41am etc

[Datisi]

Spoiler: For Dats

:>

i hope you're feeling better by now, ari. and i hope we can and do win together.

[Datisi]

this is me not being scumbuddies with ari, unfortunately

[Datisi]

oh.

[Datisi]

it looks like the former to me...

[Datisi]

well isn't that great.

andres, why the "sigh" along with that (quick)hammer?

[Datisi]

VOTE: andres

either we get a very fun yelo or i get to yell at baltar for somehow clearing scum. win-win either way.

[Datisi]

i don't get to yell at baltar

casing someone who's barely been playing this game will be a bit difficult, but i will do my best.

pedit: likewise andres, i don't have any ill will towards you and don't plan to get into a shouting match with you. i will have to reveal your scumfuckery for what it is, though.

[Datisi]

pretty sure ari also said she thought you were iv's partner. the actual baller move here would've been killing me.

[Datisi]

anyway, i am a bit busy currently (and by busy i mean i don't feel like writing cases at the moment), but i'll be getting to this tonight.

[Datisi]

i know you said to scumcase the other person, but i think it would be better if i showed both why i am town and why andres is scum.

1. koba has never misread me.

i am not exaggerating. this was their read on me on d1.

DATISI IS TOWN

vetoing any push on datisi until limlo ty

in games that date back a year or so where they were town, their reads on me were:

open 841:

My brief skim reveals that Datisi is likely town

this was a few minutes after they replaced in. now, their iso in this game is... 900+ posts, but even in mylo, after they reevaluated everything, this was their final readslist:

alyssa
datisi
catboi
____________
Skitter
SS

i was town. not only was i town, this was also one of my laziest towngames to date.

anything upick:

I hard townread datisi

i was town.

mini 2239:

but anyways im just gonna sheep kyouko in their in depth analysis so have fun if u are scum, game can be over already VOTE: Salsa :3

koba replaced into a town slot in a final 3 with me and salsa. it took them about 45 minutes to conclude i'm town and vote the other person.

mini 2226:

just townblock datisi, I, ari, chaos, and NM and we win gg ez
Titus maybe but i never can read her so im pensive abt it

i was town.

compared to the only game where they were town against scum-me (ignoring an old run of sass & brapnel where i was in a hydra with iconeum), mini 2195:

do you wanna say anything about it?

@rtp, i don't like being ignored.

I think you're a bit too complacent + just ur energy feels off from when I have seen you as town.

@rtp, i am correct to assume that you're getting to my 205, right? also interested in hearing why harumi is town.

ur whole energy is complacent - its not just 1 post its the way u present urself.

i cant just quote 1 post - its the whole collection of them that screams it to me.

right away they latched onto me as not having energy and not being my usual town-self. at the end of the day, they did out a poe that did not include me, but i'm fairly certain i've seen them say that they purposefully didn't include me to make me think they're townreading me so that they don't die (didn't work btw, read right through them and killed them asap)

2. andres has never misread me.

again, not an exaggeration.

mini 2246, my last scumgame:

I have Datisi and A50 as Scum so far. Ico is Town.

read me correctly on page fucking 3. which, btw, now that all of my other games are over, this was the last time i had rolled scum. so it's not like i had an opportunity to become a better scum player in the meantime.

mini 2201, my towngame?

I’ve only read the first ten pages again or so. Datisi is Town. So is Rathe.

I don’t feel like I want to shoot myself reading Datisi’s early takes. So they’re Town.

end of day, this was the top tier of their final readslist:

Lean Town
{Iconeum, Luca Blight, Datisi}

mini 2195, where i was scum?

Datisi - Haven't figured out how to read this one. I think he's generally quite towny, but other people don't? Not rlly sure what to think.

Who thinks Datisi is scummy?

It’s crossed my mind. They seem over-explainy to me so far.

Slight Lean Scum
{Elements, Datisi, Lunar Martian/midwaybear}

whoops i'm being scumread again.

the only game left is 2157 where i was town, but i was also a mason, and my play was extremely... fucky that game, and it was also our first game together. if my memory serves, he also townread me there, but anyway.

the only two posibilites here are (a) after not playing scum for a couple of months, i magically went from "being caught by andres on page 3" to "able to fool him thoughout the entire game up until yelo", or (b) andres is scum.

(i'm gonna post this now because i'm paranoid i'm gonna accidentally lose the post, but i have more things to say)

[Datisi]

my play on day 1:

i've said this a few times before, but i don't play scum with the notion of "do what i would do as town", i think that's idiotic. my m.o. is "do what makes other people think i'm town". even if i saw my buddy lapla shitting the thread with that frogster vote, i wouldn't vote him for it and bring all the attention to him. you know why? because it's likely the town will completely ignore that post if i don't bring attention to it! instead, i latch onto him, because...? i'm a piece of shit who wants to bus my partner out of the game on day one?

but alright. for the sake of argument, let's say i do that. what i then

don't

do is also push iv alongside lapla. because there's a very simple strategy when playing in a 3-person scumteam. bus one partner, buddy the other. the busee flips, you and buddy cruise to endgame. i've done it in 2169 (bus teacher, buddy bob, the only reason this game wasn't won was because of that fucking surprise vengeful in 5p) and 2195 (bus green, buddy dunn, win 5p).

if i decided to bus one of my buddies, i am going to make it such a bus that both me and the other scum look great off it. iv looked like shit after lapla's flip, and the only reason he didn't get flipped back in day 3 was because of the gunsmith claim.

---

my and andres's entrance on day 4, which was a 6p mylo. the other scum knew that they really *really* shouldn't no-yeet there because iv is going to look absolutely horrible after he survives the night. with that in mind:

though, now that i say it, probably not 100% that he's a *town* one... okay maybe we do no-lim here

which part of "maybe we do no-lim today to see if the obvious nightkill is going to happen" is angling for misyeeting iv today?

contrast with:

I’ll state the obvious - a No Execution here is not sensible. Due to the mechanical claims that we have, it doesn’t make sense to No Vote only to lose the remaining claimed PR left. We need IV’s voice to help guide our thinking.

iv's voice! iv, who hasn't done jack shit this game! that's whose voice we need!

then. here's the fun part, watch this. read page 183. you voted ari and think she's scum. iv voted ari. two more votes needed. house is saying he's gonna hammer ari (4555). andres is basically fucking begging me to vote for ari (4557, 4558). what am i doing? nothing! i'm standing there like an idiot, calling ari scum, but not voting! 4574, 4576, 4638, what is scumtisi doing? is scumtisi... once again cheering for no-yeet in 4713???

like, it's the part of the game where ending the day would mean victory, and standing around stalling means that there's a bigger and bigger chance someone changes their mind. not only that, i actively say that we might as well no yeet. (in the same post where i'm setting up ari/house, only to kill house afterwards?)

then. then fucking then, house fakeclaims again. math votes him (4781). i still keep calling him town. i threaten to ragevote him, but when it comes down to it, i vote no-yeet.

---

day 5. reread my iso from the first half of day 5, from around the 4th page of my iso. i keep egging it on how setup is weird if iv is town, how that means scum has a way of generating false clears, how house is the perfect person for scum!ari to bring into 5p. if i already said that ari was scum yesterday (but i didn't vote her because i was afraid that both andres and house were baiting), why am i trying to calm down the math/ari argument? why am i trying to divert your attention *towards* iv?

5415 is still a good point. iv said he'll sheep you at the time you were mostly talking about ari/house or ari/dats. you considered andres to be possible scum only as a traitor, but you always vote the main scum out first, so. and i'm pretty sure you were saying how andres was having really townie contributions that day.

also, 5416. like. lol. and to mention, if i'm trying to bus in 5p... i just bus in 5p. i don't do this nonsense of will-i won't-i.

and, what i said yesterday, i started feeling iv/andres were distancing once it was getting increasingly likely that iv was going to flip, but andres was already locked into his opinion of "iv is town because *radio static*" so they had to get some distance going. like, the questions that iv threw to andres (e.g. 5534) felt like nothing questions that go nowehre. and andres's "wow, even iv thinks i'm scum, so my input doesn't matter!!" line in 5510 feels... utterly misplaced? like, if you're town!andres, and you see town!iv about to get executed, why are you whining about iv seeing you as scum? shouldn't your priority be to get iv out of shit and get ari executed? like, it doesn't feel like somehing that naturally occurs to a townie in that position.

that's all i can think of off the top of my head that's important. if i think of / reread any other key events that i figure would help you, i'll make sure to let you know.

[Datisi]

Now, we do know Koba was Town, and I do trust Koba’s reads the vast majority of the Town, but Datisi is also arguing that Koba should have guessed the entire Scum Team D1 and from your POV, you already know that’s an impossible standard (since Koba by definition was wrong about one of us).

...no. i'm not arguing that "koba should have guessed the entire team d1", i'm arguing "koba has never in the history of us playing together gotten my alignment wrong, so the choice now is, either i've rapidly improved as a scum player in the past few months where i didn't even have the opportunity to play scum, or i'm town".

and koba wasn't wrong about either of us. they had me as town, they chucked you as null. fun fact, the reason why i reacted the way i did to koba's "wow andres is a difficult read for me idk lol" (578) is because, a while ago, i was spectating a game where they got your alignment fairly easily and were right on it. so i thought it was them talking out of their ass. but the more *likely* scenario is that they read you correctly, but didn't want to explicitly say that out loud because they didn't want to die n1.

and checking back now, turns out i did not actually call koba out based on that. i did totally think it, though.

[Datisi]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

there is a very big difference between the two. i could write multiple thousand words on it, and i'd had to explain this concept before, but the main point is: if i'm scum here, pushing lapla is what i would do as town. but nobody in the town knows that, because nobody can actually read my mind. so i lose nothing by shutting the fuck up and not making him attract heat early. and it's not like i could've known that koba was going to latch onto lapla, your argument necessitates me being a lowkey koba mind reader.

the fact that you're linking 695 and 738 in order to refute my point is laughable. read what 738 says, "i do not townread iv, but i want to kill lapla first". nowhere am i setting up a clean trajectory for townreading iv later on. and 1153 isn't even a push, it's a sorting question.

[Datisi]

like, this whole thing is ignoring the fact how much of a micromanaging control freak i am as scum. if i had decided that we are bussing lapla and that iv and i are gonna party like it's 2175, then i go into the scumchat and say "ay yo lapla, sorry buddy you have to die, iv, this is how and when you're gonna vote him in order to look beeyoutiful after that flip, got it?" and then iv would go "sir yes sir" because he's aware i'm a way better scum player than he is and he'd look great after that flip and i wouldn't have to write bullshit "iv is NOT townie for the bullshit you're townreading him for but we're getting lapla first" posts

and then i would feel great shame about myself because i had just shitbussed a newbie into the ground a on page 8 but you know

[Datisi]

And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset.

oh, am i?

right, i'm not supposed to be a piece of shit and throw shade based on scumslips-but-not-really. back to your regularly scheduled programming then:

Now, there’s a lot of bashing of my mechanical sense in Days 4 and 5, but you know this is unfair because you yourself had reached some of the same conclusions independently! And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset. So having reached the wrong conclusion does not equate to Scum motivation. And sure, I was wrong about IV being mechanically cleared. That’s very obvious. But it was not unreasonable. I think I should have been more critical once IV was still alive in D5. I think that’s a fair criticism and I think this is going to cost us the game. But arguing that we should not have No Eliminated D4 with the information we had at the time does not make me Scum. That’s preposterous and it’s a really reachy argument. In the vast majority of circumstances, that would have been wrong. And I was playing large percentages there.

it does when those "wrong conclusions" are heavily scum-favourable. i don't think you can refute that scum absolutely did not, under any circumstances, want to no-yeet on d4. so the fact that you spent a decent amount of time twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to justify us having to have iv's voice around to help us guide our thinking (when he was either horribly wrong on people's alignments or just striaght up not playing) being a scumfuck move is not "reachy", it's basic fucking logic.

and sure. you're arguing that it was "not unreasonable" to conclude that iv is town based on mech. but let's relook at your conclusion there, shall we?

I will await IV’s result before I say anything, because I’m somewhat shocked that they’re still around.

this was your entrance. shocked that iv is still around. okay. then there were posts where you say iv is certainly a gunsmith, but the argument could be made that you didn't say they were a *town* gunsmith, so i'll skip over them. but the next time you actually discuss iv's alignment with regards to mechanics is:

I had reached the conclusion that you’re [IV] Town as a derivative of how I’ve been looking at the game, and the mechanical certainty that you’re a Gunsmith, and I think this Town is too weak without your role in play in some fashion. I don’t think there’s a Rolestopper / Jailkeeper on the Scum side, since I agree it’s too strong and makes the game far too Scum sided. But I can’t imagine that the Town only had a Vigilante for 1-Shot basically (with a random Commuter addition that was never going to be used in that situation), a Weak Disloyal Fruit Vendor (who btw, outted and didn’t do much probably anticipating not being the strongest role, and then what, proving to be the main role for Town? absurd), and a Backup that’s gone unused.

you think town is too weak without iv's role, but you also don't think scum has a blocking role because that would again be too scumsided. but iv is definitely town.hell, i even called this out at the time in 5554, and i got the response that ari could be ascetic, which like, totally means there's not a blocker. except you yourself had already argued against ari being ascetic during the same gameday and how it's much more likely iv is scum (5127). makes you wonder.

[Datisi]

The whole IV and I were trying to get some distancing going is not a good argument, because I could turn around and make the same argument about Datisi and IV. Datisi spent a lot of time making mechanical arguments against IV, bashing their play in response to arguments made by Aristeia (and there are countless examples of this), but never bothered to put a vote down for IV. Why? If they were so sure the whole time that IV was Scum and mechanically they never made sense and all of Aristeia’s arguments were valid, why no votes in that direction? Where is the real conviction? It shows that Datisi was eager to play the game but was waiting to capitalize on an error that never came. I think this is the biggest clue we have about it.

well, no, you couldn't turn i around, because iv has first said your name in post 4017, which was d4, while he's had interactions with me since his entrance in the game, so we would have no need for emergency distancing in order to stop the "hey, the flipped scum has literally not mentioned you at all, isn't that weird?".

the other point is, "if datisi sure iv scum why datisi no vote iv" is a bad argument. that's simply how i operate in yelo. i'm horribly indecisive and i'm terrified of looking like an idiot. so i take a long time to make a deciding vote.

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^^ these are just the most-recent examples of me stalling yelo as town because god knows i do not want to commit. you could argue that i'm scum who decided to fake this aspect of my town!play, sure. but even then, this point is NAI for me at worst.

and like, this "datisi was trying to capitalize on an error that never came" is stupid. because if i'm scum there, i was actively making sure that no such errors happen. math and ari were arguing and math thought ari was town. what do i do? i butt in, try to calm them down, and divert attention towards iv and the fact that scum!aristeia doesn't shoot house. andres walks in, drops huge cases on how iv is most certainly definitely town in the game we call mini normal 2258 | bunnies, and yet i am... shading andres? not enabling him? like, the idea of "datisi was waiting for an error" is complete nonsense if you bother to actually read my play on d5, i was making sure that such an error does not happen on any possible front.

"well datisi wanted to bus iv instead!!" fuck bussing in yelo. it most of the time is a terrible choice. but EVEN IF you want to make the argument i was bussing in yelo... i was bussing in the most idiotic way possible. i was throwing vague shade at iv and trying to gear the other people towards him, without ever even voting him. something that i very much knew could be used against me in final 3.

like, the choice right now is, either i was town who thought iv was scum, but was paralyzed to actually vote for him because losing games is scary, or i'm scum who kept diverting any and all attention toward iv, actively stopping the math/ari and andres/ari arguments, while also stalling and not wanting to commit to the bus because...?

[Datisi]

relevant post

[Datisi]

also, i just realized something: andres is giving me shit for not voting iv when i was "sure", but why doesn't he vote aristeia when he was sure iv was town so she has to be scum? like, there's a very simple answer in a scum!andres world, he doesn't want to confirm that the only possible partner to iv is himself. why didn't town!andres vote her, when he was apparently ready to vote her yesterday (on d4)?

[Datisi]

Did you actually read the post you’re quoting from Koba? You’re arguing in another post that you can’t read Koba’s mind. But then you proceed to make an argument entirely based on your speculation of what was going on in Koba’s mind. This is obvious nonsense.

And Koba has gotten me wrong in multiple games now. And I’ve been Town in all of them (since, as you know, I have yet to receive a Scum PM). That’s probably why they chucked me as null. It’s not because they were afraid to die N1. By that logic, they never should have attacked 2 Scum. Like why stop at 2? If you’re a loud threat to 2/3rds of the Team, are you seriously arguing that they would not shoot them only because they didn’t call out the entire Team? C’mon now this is a total fantasy. You’re putting words in Koba’s mouth in a blatant way.

falsely equating my arguments in order to be able to claim a non-existent contradiction, love to see it. i cannot know how koba is going to react around lapla, because i have never played with lapla, they have never played with lapla. but (1) i'm aware that they often lie about their reads, either to get scum to slip or to manipulate the nightkill (i even commented on this when they revealed they were fake-townreading lapla), and (2) they called you null, when i know of at least one semi-recent game (august '21, i think?) where they called you an easy read. so i don't think it's unreasonable for me to conclude "huh, koba might have been bullshitting about andres's alignment because they thought he was scum", but even if that is not the case and they were considering you null... it still doesn't defeat any of my other points of them never having misread me, and every single other townread that they had on d1 here being correct.

[Datisi]

You also DID place IV as a top Town Read in one of the posts I quoted, but you’re conveniently forgetting to mention that.

that was so bad i didn't think it needed refuting, but if you insist - i placed him at the top of my readslist as a MASON claim. i posted that wallpost right after d2 started, obviously it was pre-written. and i didn't have the insider information at the time to know that house was actually fakeclaiming and that iv isn't a mason.

[Datisi]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

there is a very big difference between the two. i could write multiple thousand words on it, and i'd had to explain this concept before, but the main point is: if i'm scum here, pushing lapla is what i would do as town. but nobody in the town knows that, because nobody can actually read my mind. so i lose nothing by shutting the fuck up and not making him attract heat early. and it's not like i could've known that koba was going to latch onto lapla, your argument necessitates me being a lowkey koba mind reader.

the fact that you're linking 695 and 738 in order to refute my point is laughable. read what 738 says, "i do not townread iv, but i want to kill lapla first". nowhere am i setting up a clean trajectory for townreading iv later on. and 1153 isn't even a push, it's a sorting question.

This argument that you lose nothing is demonstrably false. You lose in the department that I know you care most about as Scum - establishing credibility. You’re too loud as Scum not to want to weave a narrative throughout the game. In the post you quoted, you indicated that as Scum, you are all about establishing a thought process that’s sensible and appears Town, but gets you closer to winning. I suspect you also know that I play the same way. The main thread behind a lot of your arguments against me is that you work meticulously to establish a narrative that gets you closer to victory, and leaves little to chance. But by implication, you’re making it sound like I can’t play like this or don’t. But this is bullshit. I do worry tremendously as Scum about the forward implications of every move I make. Yet you insisted on highlighting repeatedly throughout this game how I’m unlikely to have placed a vote of Laplacian in the way that I did, without much angling to take credit for anything. There’s an extension to this. I continued to argue for a mechanical solution to IV’s alignment I believed in, when strategically the clear choice was to distance hard at that stage. Because frankly, as Scum there, only one of us is required to win the game. You’re arguing that you didn’t have to bus in ELo because you take your wins as you can get them, but strategically you were in a bind. You very clearly couldn’t go against Aristeia’s wishes without exposing yourself, and you continued to sit back and let Aristeia drive the Endgame while continuously asking you if you were Town. Sure, you can argue that you notoriously act indecisive in ELo. But how convenient? When the chips were down, you totally failed to vote for Scum.

again, the first part of this post is implying that i as scum am so good at reading the room that i could sense that, right after that post from lapla was made, people are gonna find it suspicious, and that my future credibility is going to take a devastating hit unless i start bussing and screaming how he's scum right then and there.

i have no clue how you play scum, this is your first scumgame on this forum. snarky jokes aside, you are now arguing that the clear choice on d4/5 would've been distancing because only one of us is required to win the game, but why? from an objective standpoint, why would you start distancing when you have a scum (iv) who everyone considers locktown due to their claim and shitty setup spec? and again, who cares about exposing myself when math is already voting ari, iv is voting ari, house is screaming how he's gonna hammer her (though more than likely bait, so we'll ignore him) and i have you BEGGING me to vote ari so you could hammer. like, reading your posts on d4 once she was on two votes, you wanted to vote there. and you had been angling to vote there on d5 as well. you're telling me i'm doing revisionist history, but you're deadass trying to tell me that, with a straight face, you wanna argue how the correct choice there for scum!me was to BUS AND DISTANCE?

also, "you failed to vote scum", he says after he no-warning lolhammered iv to be able to shut aristeia up. after spending the entire past two days saying how he wants to vote aristeia, and lowkey slipping how i'm town, and arguing how iv is town. while i was trying to get ari/math to stop arguing and was trying to shut out the faulty mechanical discussion. i'm scum because i didn't vote iv. ok.

[Datisi]

like, this whole thing is ignoring the fact how much of a micromanaging control freak i am as scum. if i had decided that we are bussing lapla and that iv and i are gonna party like it's 2175, then i go into the scumchat and say "ay yo lapla, sorry buddy you have to die, iv, this is how and when you're gonna vote him in order to look beeyoutiful after that flip, got it?" and then iv would go "sir yes sir" because he's aware i'm a way better scum player than he is and he'd look great after that flip and i wouldn't have to write bullshit "iv is NOT townie for the bullshit you're townreading him for but we're getting lapla first" posts

and then i would feel great shame about myself because i had just shitbussed a newbie into the ground a on page 8 but you know

IV couldn’t have fitted into your plans how you describe here because since the early part of the game, they loudly proclaimed to be taking a step back. So this is just a total fantasy again. You have been put into a position where you had to hard carry or die, and you’ve let IV skate on their claim while continuously questioning it for distance, and bussing Laplacian who so laughably froze, they didn’t even come into the thread with a claim.

first, this is assuming that iv 100% would've also said that he's "taking a step back" if he were in a scumteam with me, because it's possible i would've told him that's a good way to attract bad attention. but even if he did, he was still around here and there on day 1, and i know he's present in scum pt's much more than main threads. and i go all in on my busses. he would've hade more than enough opportunities to plop a lapla vote down. i don't have a problem outlining his posts for him if it's needed, either.

"let iv skate on the claim, but also spent the entirety of d5 convincing dumb townies who thought he was town that he's actually faking it". yep.

[Datisi]

like, this whole thing is ignoring the fact how much of a micromanaging control freak i am as scum. if i had decided that we are bussing lapla and that iv and i are gonna party like it's 2175, then i go into the scumchat and say "ay yo lapla, sorry buddy you have to die, iv, this is how and when you're gonna vote him in order to look beeyoutiful after that flip, got it?" and then iv would go "sir yes sir" because he's aware i'm a way better scum player than he is and he'd look great after that flip and i wouldn't have to write bullshit "iv is NOT townie for the bullshit you're townreading him for but we're getting lapla first" posts

and then i would feel great shame about myself because i had just shitbussed a newbie into the ground a on page 8 but you know

IV couldn’t have fitted into your plans how you describe here because since the early part of the game, they loudly proclaimed to be taking a step back. So this is just a total fantasy again. You have been put into a position where you had to hard carry or die, and you’ve let IV skate on their claim while continuously questioning it for distance, and bussing Laplacian who so laughably froze, they didn’t even come into the thread with a claim.

first, this is assuming that iv 100% would've also said that he's "taking a step back" if he were in a scumteam with me, because it's possible i would've told him that's a good way to attract bad attention. but even if he did, he was still around here and there on day 1, and i know he's present in scum pt's much more than main threads. and i go all in on my busses. he would've hade more than enough opportunities to plop a lapla vote down. i don't have a problem outlining his posts for him if it's needed, either.

"let iv skate on the claim, but also spent the entirety of d5 convincing dumb townies who thought he was town that he's actually faking it". yep.

[Datisi]

You’re bashing me for considering both sides of a potential mechanical solve, and reaching the wrong conclusion. But you clearly have the benefit of additional information and like I said, I fully expect that this will cost us the game. Because there’s clearly no hiding that this benefited Scum. But the point isn’t that. The point is that you’re claiming I should be perfect in my analysis, when I made the same mistakes as Mathblade did. It just doesn’t make me Scum as much as you want to claim that it does.

i'm not bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion, i'm bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion while committing horrible leaps in logic that town!andres doesn't commit there. is the ascetic very unlikely or are you willing to bet the game on iv being town who happened to target aristeia? where is the questioning why iv is town besides the "i'm shocked he's here"? did town!andres really forget how town almost got pushed off a cliff for blindly following a pt cop claim way back when?

[Datisi]

like, the choice right now is, either i was town who thought iv was scum, but was paralyzed to actually vote for him because losing games is scary, or i'm scum who kept diverting any and all attention toward iv, actively stopping the math/ari and andres/ari arguments, while also stalling and not wanting to commit to the bus because...?

The problem is this is such absurd revisionist history that I can’t argue with the hyperbole. You did not have nearly the influence that you claim in the outcome of any of the past few days. You just don’t. And I haven’t even revisited properly the executions of Frogsterking or Skitter. Which you’ve completely glossed over.

Aristeia is centrally responsible for the death of IV. You aren’t. You’re claiming an absurd amount of credit for something you weren’t primarily responsible for, and didn’t vote for. You’ve voted for No Execution (which btw, I did too), and that’s the extent of what you’ve actually done over the last several days. This constant “refocus” you claim to have been doing on IV? It’s just nonsense. Aristeia kept the light constantly focused there, and you so obviously took a back seat it’s really funny.

Strategically, you didn’t have a choice. You clearly wanted to maximize your pocket of Aristeia, and envisioned that would get you a victory. Well, I suspect you’ve succeeded, in as much as I expect Mathblade to vote for me since they’ve claimed to have made up their mind without reading any of my responses.

i'm not talking about executions of skitter or frogs at all.

and sure, aristeia was the main driving force behind the iv yeet, i'm not claiming otherwise. but you know what happens to townies who are correct in yelo, but nobody thinks they're town? they get executed! math *clearly* thought ari was scum, town!andres did too. do you know how easy it is to enable one of them? math thinks i'm town, town!andres think i'm town, just make some bullshit up about aristeia and get one of them to vote her! instead i kept bringing up how mech makes no sense and the house kill doesn't come from scum!ari because lol?

and the "i voted no exe" is laughable. "i voted no exe,

after arguing really hard why we shouldn't vote no exe

." "you didn't vote iv, i voted iv,

after arguing why aristeia is scum, iv is town, and me panic-hammering iv after it was clear as day he was gonna flip with or without me, i voted iv.

" good job, you managed to bus when it was inevitable. the fact that you're using that fact as if it actually means something is telling.

maximize my pocket of aristeia. yeah, it's really useful to me now!! aristeia is going to bring scum!me victory after i sent her to the dead thread last night!! brilliant plan scumtisi. just fucking brilliant.

[Datisi]

UNVOTE:

And I voted to shut up Aristeia? That’s a laughable comment if I’ve ever seen one. So I let the entire two days play out as they did, and then when IV is close to the brink at the end of the day, THEN I decide it’s the right time to shut Aristeia up. That was clearly not the intention and you know it.

fine, you hammered before i got the chance so you could try to claim you actually had anything to do with flipping scum on d5, as if you hadn't spent the day arguing against flipping him. better?

[Datisi]

VOTE: andres

why the fuck was there an unvote lmao

[Datisi]

And you keep making the same point about why distance there when you didn’t have to. But that’s not the reality of how the day actually played out. And I don’t have to beg you to vote Aristeia there. I could have done it, and baited a hammer anywhere. I didn’t. It’s like I was actually trying to suss out what you were up to, and you refused to commit.

baited a hammer by whom? math, iv, you, me, ari, house. math and iv are already voting there. ari was not going to hammer herself, house could've been bluffing because god knows what goes on through his head, and i was very clearly not yet ready to hammer. who could you have possibly baited a hammer out of there?

[Datisi]

You’re bashing me for considering both sides of a potential mechanical solve, and reaching the wrong conclusion. But you clearly have the benefit of additional information and like I said, I fully expect that this will cost us the game. Because there’s clearly no hiding that this benefited Scum. But the point isn’t that. The point is that you’re claiming I should be perfect in my analysis, when I made the same mistakes as Mathblade did. It just doesn’t make me Scum as much as you want to claim that it does.

i'm not bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion, i'm bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion while committing horrible leaps in logic that town!andres doesn't commit there. is the ascetic very unlikely or are you willing to bet the game on iv being town who happened to target aristeia? where is the questioning why iv is town besides the "i'm shocked he's here"? did town!andres really forget how town almost got pushed off a cliff for blindly following a pt cop claim way back when?

You can keep hammering me on my mechanical mistakes, and I have no answer but to say that I’m sorry. I can and have screwed up horribly in other games and continuing to argue that I can’t make logical mistakes is a standard I will never meet. By this logic, you can always trash me as Scum provided I reach some wrong conclusion in a game. And it’s just not the case. I have made mistakes that have cost the Town. I never should have let Koba escape with a claim in a different game that was so laughable on its face I should have hammered it. I do make mistakes. And you continuously arguing that I can’t as Town and that this makes me Scum is revealing. You want to argue you haven’t played a meticulously planned game, but you aren’t the one getting hammered for making mistakes. I am.

mistakes aren't scum!indicative, not by themselves. but fine, you're free to explain - how am i supposed to read you saying ascetic!ari is so decently unlikely that you don't wanna think about it, to you saying that's much more likely than iv being scum? how am i supposed to read the fact there was no thought at all put into "why is iv alive?"

obviously there's only one answer because i know you're scum, but from an outside perspective. you're not going "that's not scummy, i did those things because i had X thought and i saw Y and i thought Z and Q influenced P and therefore..." etc etc etc you're just going "well i am a human being and i make mistakes!!!". which like, shows there was no thought process present.

[Datisi]

Why didn’t I avoid voting for a No Execution then?

am i tripping? dude, you fucking entered d4 with a whole ass essay titled "this is why we should absolutely not no-exe today". you voted there only when it was abundantly clear that's what's happening.

and "why didn't i bait house's hammer?" argument goes doubly for me, "why didn't i bait house's OR andres's hammer?".

[Datisi]

also, i just realized something: andres is giving me shit for not voting iv when i was "sure", but why doesn't he vote aristeia when he was sure iv was town so she has to be scum? like, there's a very simple answer in a scum!andres world, he doesn't want to confirm that the only possible partner to iv is himself. why didn't town!andres vote her, when he was apparently ready to vote her yesterday (on d4)?

can i just say how i LOVE how this post was conveniently ignored?

the EVEN BETTER part is that, i'm getting shit on for not voting iv at the time where it would be advantageous for scum!me to vote iv (assuming i really chose the bus path). but the fact that andres did not vote aristeia (despite having so much conviction she was scum) at the time it would've been disastrous for scum!him to do so? just fine. not a problem.

[Datisi]

And the only other thing I would bring up is that you came into today asking me a question but without the conviction to vote me, when you’ve been making a mechanical argument against Mathblade ever possibly being Scum. Like this is what bugs me about this whole thing and why I’m somewhat irritated about how I think this is going to play out. You have constantly made arguments about mechanics over the last two days that you say clearly establish that you couldn’t possibly be Scum with IV. But then why not come into today voting me immediately? How does that even make sense? I think you were hoping I would potentially express some uncertainty around Mathblade because if they’re mechanically cleared, why are they still alive? At the very least I foiled that plan.

wow gee. datisi, you spent so much time arguing how there is no way in hell that iv and mathblade are partners. and then iv flipped scum. and THEN mathblade survived the night. you're telling me you actually stopped for a minute to try to think though if maybe, just maybe, that's a setup by mathblade and you're being taken for a ride?

an even better argument could be made against you. from town!you pov, you just made a HORRENDOUS blunder on the mechanics of this game on d5. yet, enter d6, town!you doesn't have a single moment of hesitation, a single "i've been wrong on mech before, i could be wrong again" thought? a single "wait, the person who is allegedly confirmed town is still alive, isn't that weird"? doubt?

almost like you knew that math is gonna be still alive >_>

[Datisi]

math, if you think you've made up your mind, you can hammer if you want. i don't know if i'm gonna think of anything else super important to say. i could write... a lot about why this game isn't my scumgame, but i know self-meta isn't helpful for most.

[Datisi]

a mindset of a person who has, time and time again, been convinced of one thing going into yelo, and then a nightkill happened which should've told me that something was terribly fucking wrong, and then it had turned out that something was, indeed, terribly fucking wrong. yeah, i did spend so much time arguing how a math/iv team makes no sense mechanically and how math is confirmed town if iv is red. but the fact that math didn't die then? it doesn't cost me anything to use a few posts of the game in order to double-check that work, god forbid.

[Datisi]

a mindset of a person who has, time and time again, been convinced of one thing going into yelo, and then a nightkill happened which should've told me that something was terribly fucking wrong, and then it had turned out that something was, indeed, terribly fucking wrong. yeah, i did spend so much time arguing how a math/iv team makes no sense mechanically and how math is confirmed town if iv is red. but the fact that math didn't die then? it doesn't cost me anything to use a few posts of the game in order to double-check that work, god forbid.

[Datisi]

also, i love how that response is completely ignoring the fact that, town!andres, after almost losing town the game based on faulty mechanics on d5, did not take a second to even think if he was about to lose the town the game based on faulty mechanics on d6 as well. it's just, datisi, how dare you consider whether you were wrong. lol.

[Datisi]

this game's been going on since january 22nd, and we're at page 228. i'm saying that i was willing to take like 3 posts of the game to reconsider whether the mechanical argument that i've been pushing for the past two weeks is wrong. because if it was, all that effort was for nothing. you can argue that was a scum!motivated mindset all you want (because a mechanical clear is definitely easier to try to get exectued over a non-mechanical clear), but you cannot deny the fact that i am horribly indecisive as town and that that's a trait that's at worst NAI for me.

[Datisi]

I could also point out that I have acted decisively as Town in this sort of situation multiple times. So trying to attribute some Scum mindset to my vote here without you know, checking my meta as you seem to be so willing to do for yourself, should be viewed with the skepticism it deserves.

i don't do second-hand meta. and sure, you act decisively as town. again, where was that decisiveness when you were supposed to be voting aristeia? nope, it was not there. and weren't you the one arguing how, when you make mistakes, you lose confidence? wait, you were!

And I am confident, most of the time. I can even come across as arrogant. That’s all true. But not when I’ve been consistently wrong and my reads have proven to be bad. Why are you not adding that caveat? You can clearly tell in games I have made a lot of mistakes, I stop pushing hard. And when the game begins to validate what I’m seeing, I gain in confidence and influence. It depends. There’s no absolute about any of it. No one plays the same all the time. And do you seriously think I’m losing interest here?

[Datisi]

Oh now everything is NAI when it comes to you.

You know, now I know what to say as Scum towards the end of a game I’m still around when faced with questions as to why I didn’t actually act in a Town positive way when it mattered the most. I’m indecisive, so you know, that’s just how I am, so don’t expect me to actually vote out Scum with the game on the line, and “it’s NAI”. But never admit to mistakes, because you know, that could be perceived as Scummy.

i have presented multiple cases of me stalling votes in yelo as town. this makes as much sense as arguing that i'm scum because i'm typing everything in lowercase.

and, like, stop pretending like, just because you hammered your buddy out of desperation when his death was inevitable, you actually had anything to do with it...

[Datisi]

Yet I failed to act confidently to put Town at risk of losing, but I have actually acted confidently when I realized it needed to be done in a Town positive way, and you’re faulting me for that?

you failed to act confidently when, by all logic you have presented this game, you should have been confident and voted aristeia, because it was at the moment in time where it would have lost you the game, but once you were supposed to be a bit more humble due to literally just blundering mechanics in a game, you were still acting as if you 100% knew math was town. hilarious indeed.

[Datisi]

Anyway, I’m taking a break from this. I have to go do some grocery shopping.

@Math, I’m happy with you submitting a vote like I said. I don’t think this is going to progress much further.

have i mentioned yet that 5690 is still not addressed because andres knows there is no way he can explain himself there

that's fine, i wanna go draw or whatever anyway.

[Datisi]

i'm town!!

[Datisi]

you're not like, the world's most horrible slowroller, right?? we actually won this nightmare???

[Datisi]

i am literally incapable of receiving a red role pm

[Datisi]

my fucking god, this game gave me so much stress

the last day gave me so much STRESS

[Datisi]

thank for modding catboi, gg y'all

the dead thread was funny
imagine thinking i'm scum lol

[Datisi]

I don't think it was that close? You did very well dear <3

i still got nervous

thank you for saving us and turning it onto iv <3

[Datisi]

my horrible indecisiveness and fear of failure were once in my life useful for something ahaha

[Datisi]

i think we would unironically get policy yeeted on day 1 as a hydra, i think the only reason people tolerate us in games is the fact that it can be claimed it's useful for sorting or whatever lmao

[Datisi]

sorry andres <3 for what it's worth, i really did not see that bus coming, nad up until your hammer on iv, i was really hesitating

[Datisi]

It’s funny because I was cackling when I saw that I hadn’t misread Datisi because it’s both funny and damning.

i was genuinely debating whether to make that post, because i knew it gives both you and koba some MASSIVE ammunition to use against me in future games if i wanna call your read on me bad, but i've always said that winning this game > winning future games, so... fingers crossed no bad alignment rolls for me >_>

[Datisi]

i have fun as scum

i just don't have fun when some obvtown fucker snipes me on page 3 and i have to bullshit my way through why their read is Bad, Actually

[Datisi]

gib scum pt

[Datisi]

ahhh, sorry, was gonna comment and then i forgor

first, i'm impressed to see the amount of planning that was happening behind the scenes, and i wish we roll red together sometime

i *want* to say that you're right that the only reason i was struggling to scumread you is the fact i've never seen scum!you before, and your play here is definitely something i'll keep in mind going forward, but i wouldn't be entirely sure.