Mini Normal 2258 | Bunnies [Postgame]

[Andresvmb]

I just think if Datisi is going to argue that there was a bunch of distancing between IV and I, they need to seriously defend why they never, even after you had put a vote on IV, why they never chose to put a vote there. They very clearly had the chance.

[catboi]

Vote Count 6.01

Datisi (1):

Andresvmb

Andresvmb (1):

Datisi

Not Voting (1):

MathBlade

With 3 alive, it's 2 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 6 is March 7 at 9:30 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-03-07 10:30:00)

[MathBlade]

Prod dodge I am town
Ari flipped town

This is technically content as I am reading.

[Datisi]

Now, we do know Koba was Town, and I do trust Koba’s reads the vast majority of the Town, but Datisi is also arguing that Koba should have guessed the entire Scum Team D1 and from your POV, you already know that’s an impossible standard (since Koba by definition was wrong about one of us).

...no. i'm not arguing that "koba should have guessed the entire team d1", i'm arguing "koba has never in the history of us playing together gotten my alignment wrong, so the choice now is, either i've rapidly improved as a scum player in the past few months where i didn't even have the opportunity to play scum, or i'm town".

and koba wasn't wrong about either of us. they had me as town, they chucked you as null. fun fact, the reason why i reacted the way i did to koba's "wow andres is a difficult read for me idk lol" (578) is because, a while ago, i was spectating a game where they got your alignment fairly easily and were right on it. so i thought it was them talking out of their ass. but the more *likely* scenario is that they read you correctly, but didn't want to explicitly say that out loud because they didn't want to die n1.

and checking back now, turns out i did not actually call koba out based on that. i did totally think it, though.

[Datisi]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

there is a very big difference between the two. i could write multiple thousand words on it, and i'd had to explain this concept before, but the main point is: if i'm scum here, pushing lapla is what i would do as town. but nobody in the town knows that, because nobody can actually read my mind. so i lose nothing by shutting the fuck up and not making him attract heat early. and it's not like i could've known that koba was going to latch onto lapla, your argument necessitates me being a lowkey koba mind reader.

the fact that you're linking 695 and 738 in order to refute my point is laughable. read what 738 says, "i do not townread iv, but i want to kill lapla first". nowhere am i setting up a clean trajectory for townreading iv later on. and 1153 isn't even a push, it's a sorting question.

[Datisi]

like, this whole thing is ignoring the fact how much of a micromanaging control freak i am as scum. if i had decided that we are bussing lapla and that iv and i are gonna party like it's 2175, then i go into the scumchat and say "ay yo lapla, sorry buddy you have to die, iv, this is how and when you're gonna vote him in order to look beeyoutiful after that flip, got it?" and then iv would go "sir yes sir" because he's aware i'm a way better scum player than he is and he'd look great after that flip and i wouldn't have to write bullshit "iv is NOT townie for the bullshit you're townreading him for but we're getting lapla first" posts

and then i would feel great shame about myself because i had just shitbussed a newbie into the ground a on page 8 but you know

[Datisi]

And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset.

oh, am i?

right, i'm not supposed to be a piece of shit and throw shade based on scumslips-but-not-really. back to your regularly scheduled programming then:

Now, there’s a lot of bashing of my mechanical sense in Days 4 and 5, but you know this is unfair because you yourself had reached some of the same conclusions independently! And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset. So having reached the wrong conclusion does not equate to Scum motivation. And sure, I was wrong about IV being mechanically cleared. That’s very obvious. But it was not unreasonable. I think I should have been more critical once IV was still alive in D5. I think that’s a fair criticism and I think this is going to cost us the game. But arguing that we should not have No Eliminated D4 with the information we had at the time does not make me Scum. That’s preposterous and it’s a really reachy argument. In the vast majority of circumstances, that would have been wrong. And I was playing large percentages there.

it does when those "wrong conclusions" are heavily scum-favourable. i don't think you can refute that scum absolutely did not, under any circumstances, want to no-yeet on d4. so the fact that you spent a decent amount of time twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to justify us having to have iv's voice around to help us guide our thinking (when he was either horribly wrong on people's alignments or just striaght up not playing) being a scumfuck move is not "reachy", it's basic fucking logic.

and sure. you're arguing that it was "not unreasonable" to conclude that iv is town based on mech. but let's relook at your conclusion there, shall we?

I will await IV’s result before I say anything, because I’m somewhat shocked that they’re still around.

this was your entrance. shocked that iv is still around. okay. then there were posts where you say iv is certainly a gunsmith, but the argument could be made that you didn't say they were a *town* gunsmith, so i'll skip over them. but the next time you actually discuss iv's alignment with regards to mechanics is:

I had reached the conclusion that you’re [IV] Town as a derivative of how I’ve been looking at the game, and the mechanical certainty that you’re a Gunsmith, and I think this Town is too weak without your role in play in some fashion. I don’t think there’s a Rolestopper / Jailkeeper on the Scum side, since I agree it’s too strong and makes the game far too Scum sided. But I can’t imagine that the Town only had a Vigilante for 1-Shot basically (with a random Commuter addition that was never going to be used in that situation), a Weak Disloyal Fruit Vendor (who btw, outted and didn’t do much probably anticipating not being the strongest role, and then what, proving to be the main role for Town? absurd), and a Backup that’s gone unused.

you think town is too weak without iv's role, but you also don't think scum has a blocking role because that would again be too scumsided. but iv is definitely town.hell, i even called this out at the time in 5554, and i got the response that ari could be ascetic, which like, totally means there's not a blocker. except you yourself had already argued against ari being ascetic during the same gameday and how it's much more likely iv is scum (5127). makes you wonder.

[Datisi]

The whole IV and I were trying to get some distancing going is not a good argument, because I could turn around and make the same argument about Datisi and IV. Datisi spent a lot of time making mechanical arguments against IV, bashing their play in response to arguments made by Aristeia (and there are countless examples of this), but never bothered to put a vote down for IV. Why? If they were so sure the whole time that IV was Scum and mechanically they never made sense and all of Aristeia’s arguments were valid, why no votes in that direction? Where is the real conviction? It shows that Datisi was eager to play the game but was waiting to capitalize on an error that never came. I think this is the biggest clue we have about it.

well, no, you couldn't turn i around, because iv has first said your name in post 4017, which was d4, while he's had interactions with me since his entrance in the game, so we would have no need for emergency distancing in order to stop the "hey, the flipped scum has literally not mentioned you at all, isn't that weird?".

the other point is, "if datisi sure iv scum why datisi no vote iv" is a bad argument. that's simply how i operate in yelo. i'm horribly indecisive and i'm terrified of looking like an idiot. so i take a long time to make a deciding vote.

viewtopic.php?t=88398
viewtopic.php?t=88427
viewtopic.php?t=87680
viewtopic.php?t=85772

^^ these are just the most-recent examples of me stalling yelo as town because god knows i do not want to commit. you could argue that i'm scum who decided to fake this aspect of my town!play, sure. but even then, this point is NAI for me at worst.

and like, this "datisi was trying to capitalize on an error that never came" is stupid. because if i'm scum there, i was actively making sure that no such errors happen. math and ari were arguing and math thought ari was town. what do i do? i butt in, try to calm them down, and divert attention towards iv and the fact that scum!aristeia doesn't shoot house. andres walks in, drops huge cases on how iv is most certainly definitely town in the game we call mini normal 2258 | bunnies, and yet i am... shading andres? not enabling him? like, the idea of "datisi was waiting for an error" is complete nonsense if you bother to actually read my play on d5, i was making sure that such an error does not happen on any possible front.

"well datisi wanted to bus iv instead!!" fuck bussing in yelo. it most of the time is a terrible choice. but EVEN IF you want to make the argument i was bussing in yelo... i was bussing in the most idiotic way possible. i was throwing vague shade at iv and trying to gear the other people towards him, without ever even voting him. something that i very much knew could be used against me in final 3.

like, the choice right now is, either i was town who thought iv was scum, but was paralyzed to actually vote for him because losing games is scary, or i'm scum who kept diverting any and all attention toward iv, actively stopping the math/ari and andres/ari arguments, while also stalling and not wanting to commit to the bus because...?

[Datisi]

relevant post

[Datisi]

also, i just realized something: andres is giving me shit for not voting iv when i was "sure", but why doesn't he vote aristeia when he was sure iv was town so she has to be scum? like, there's a very simple answer in a scum!andres world, he doesn't want to confirm that the only possible partner to iv is himself. why didn't town!andres vote her, when he was apparently ready to vote her yesterday (on d4)?

[MathBlade]

This is more content. I think I have my mind made up but just want to give the 48 hours as promised so will vote tomorrow morning when I wake up barring explicit permission from both to vote early.

[Andresvmb]

Now, we do know Koba was Town, and I do trust Koba’s reads the vast majority of the Town, but Datisi is also arguing that Koba should have guessed the entire Scum Team D1 and from your POV, you already know that’s an impossible standard (since Koba by definition was wrong about one of us).

...no. i'm not arguing that "koba should have guessed the entire team d1", i'm arguing "koba has never in the history of us playing together gotten my alignment wrong, so the choice now is, either i've rapidly improved as a scum player in the past few months where i didn't even have the opportunity to play scum, or i'm town".

and koba wasn't wrong about either of us. they had me as town, they chucked you as null. fun fact, the reason why i reacted the way i did to koba's "wow andres is a difficult read for me idk lol" (578) is because, a while ago, i was spectating a game where they got your alignment fairly easily and were right on it. so i thought it was them talking out of their ass. but the more *likely* scenario is that they read you correctly, but didn't want to explicitly say that out loud because they didn't want to die n1.

and checking back now, turns out i did not actually call koba out based on that. i did totally think it, though.

Did you actually read the post you’re quoting from Koba? You’re arguing in another post that you can’t read Koba’s mind. But then you proceed to make an argument entirely based on your speculation of what was going on in Koba’s mind. This is obvious nonsense.

And Koba has gotten me wrong in multiple games now. And I’ve been Town in all of them (since, as you know, I have yet to receive a Scum PM). That’s probably why they chucked me as null. It’s not because they were afraid to die N1. By that logic, they never should have attacked 2 Scum. Like why stop at 2? If you’re a loud threat to 2/3rds of the Team, are you seriously arguing that they would not shoot them only because they didn’t call out the entire Team? C’mon now this is a total fantasy. You’re putting words in Koba’s mouth in a blatant way.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

there is a very big difference between the two. i could write multiple thousand words on it, and i'd had to explain this concept before, but the main point is: if i'm scum here, pushing lapla is what i would do as town. but nobody in the town knows that, because nobody can actually read my mind. so i lose nothing by shutting the fuck up and not making him attract heat early. and it's not like i could've known that koba was going to latch onto lapla, your argument necessitates me being a lowkey koba mind reader.

the fact that you're linking 695 and 738 in order to refute my point is laughable. read what 738 says, "i do not townread iv, but i want to kill lapla first". nowhere am i setting up a clean trajectory for townreading iv later on. and 1153 isn't even a push, it's a sorting question.

This argument that you lose nothing is demonstrably false. You lose in the department that I know you care most about as Scum - establishing credibility. You’re too loud as Scum not to want to weave a narrative throughout the game. In the post you quoted, you indicated that as Scum, you are all about establishing a thought process that’s sensible and appears Town, but gets you closer to winning. I suspect you also know that I play the same way. The main thread behind a lot of your arguments against me is that you work meticulously to establish a narrative that gets you closer to victory, and leaves little to chance. But by implication, you’re making it sound like I can’t play like this or don’t. But this is bullshit. I do worry tremendously as Scum about the forward implications of every move I make. Yet you insisted on highlighting repeatedly throughout this game how I’m unlikely to have placed a vote of Laplacian in the way that I did, without much angling to take credit for anything. There’s an extension to this. I continued to argue for a mechanical solution to IV’s alignment I believed in, when strategically the clear choice was to distance hard at that stage. Because frankly, as Scum there, only one of us is required to win the game. You’re arguing that you didn’t have to bus in ELo because you take your wins as you can get them, but strategically you were in a bind. You very clearly couldn’t go against Aristeia’s wishes without exposing yourself, and you continued to sit back and let Aristeia drive the Endgame while continuously asking you if you were Town. Sure, you can argue that you notoriously act indecisive in ELo. But how convenient? When the chips were down, you totally failed to vote for Scum.

[Andresvmb]

You also DID place IV as a top Town Read in one of the posts I quoted, but you’re conveniently forgetting to mention that.

[Andresvmb]

like, this whole thing is ignoring the fact how much of a micromanaging control freak i am as scum. if i had decided that we are bussing lapla and that iv and i are gonna party like it's 2175, then i go into the scumchat and say "ay yo lapla, sorry buddy you have to die, iv, this is how and when you're gonna vote him in order to look beeyoutiful after that flip, got it?" and then iv would go "sir yes sir" because he's aware i'm a way better scum player than he is and he'd look great after that flip and i wouldn't have to write bullshit "iv is NOT townie for the bullshit you're townreading him for but we're getting lapla first" posts

and then i would feel great shame about myself because i had just shitbussed a newbie into the ground a on page 8 but you know

IV couldn’t have fitted into your plans how you describe here because since the early part of the game, they loudly proclaimed to be taking a step back. So this is just a total fantasy again. You have been put into a position where you had to hard carry or die, and you’ve let IV skate on their claim while continuously questioning it for distance, and bussing Laplacian who so laughably froze, they didn’t even come into the thread with a claim.

[Andresvmb]

And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset.

oh, am i?

right, i'm not supposed to be a piece of shit and throw shade based on scumslips-but-not-really. back to your regularly scheduled programming then:

Now, there’s a lot of bashing of my mechanical sense in Days 4 and 5, but you know this is unfair because you yourself had reached some of the same conclusions independently! And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset. So having reached the wrong conclusion does not equate to Scum motivation. And sure, I was wrong about IV being mechanically cleared. That’s very obvious. But it was not unreasonable. I think I should have been more critical once IV was still alive in D5. I think that’s a fair criticism and I think this is going to cost us the game. But arguing that we should not have No Eliminated D4 with the information we had at the time does not make me Scum. That’s preposterous and it’s a really reachy argument. In the vast majority of circumstances, that would have been wrong. And I was playing large percentages there.

it does when those "wrong conclusions" are heavily scum-favourable. i don't think you can refute that scum absolutely did not, under any circumstances, want to no-yeet on d4. so the fact that you spent a decent amount of time twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to justify us having to have iv's voice around to help us guide our thinking (when he was either horribly wrong on people's alignments or just striaght up not playing) being a scumfuck move is not "reachy", it's basic fucking logic.

and sure. you're arguing that it was "not unreasonable" to conclude that iv is town based on mech. but let's relook at your conclusion there, shall we?

I will await IV’s result before I say anything, because I’m somewhat shocked that they’re still around.

this was your entrance. shocked that iv is still around. okay. then there were posts where you say iv is certainly a gunsmith, but the argument could be made that you didn't say they were a *town* gunsmith, so i'll skip over them. but the next time you actually discuss iv's alignment with regards to mechanics is:

I had reached the conclusion that you’re [IV] Town as a derivative of how I’ve been looking at the game, and the mechanical certainty that you’re a Gunsmith, and I think this Town is too weak without your role in play in some fashion. I don’t think there’s a Rolestopper / Jailkeeper on the Scum side, since I agree it’s too strong and makes the game far too Scum sided. But I can’t imagine that the Town only had a Vigilante for 1-Shot basically (with a random Commuter addition that was never going to be used in that situation), a Weak Disloyal Fruit Vendor (who btw, outted and didn’t do much probably anticipating not being the strongest role, and then what, proving to be the main role for Town? absurd), and a Backup that’s gone unused.

you think town is too weak without iv's role, but you also don't think scum has a blocking role because that would again be too scumsided. but iv is definitely town.hell, i even called this out at the time in 5554, and i got the response that ari could be ascetic, which like, totally means there's not a blocker. except you yourself had already argued against ari being ascetic during the same gameday and how it's much more likely iv is scum (5127). makes you wonder.

You’re bashing me for considering both sides of a potential mechanical solve, and reaching the wrong conclusion. But you clearly have the benefit of additional information and like I said, I fully expect that this will cost us the game. Because there’s clearly no hiding that this benefited Scum. But the point isn’t that. The point is that you’re claiming I should be perfect in my analysis, when I made the same mistakes as Mathblade did. It just doesn’t make me Scum as much as you want to claim that it does.

[Andresvmb]

like, the choice right now is, either i was town who thought iv was scum, but was paralyzed to actually vote for him because losing games is scary, or i'm scum who kept diverting any and all attention toward iv, actively stopping the math/ari and andres/ari arguments, while also stalling and not wanting to commit to the bus because...?

The problem is this is such absurd revisionist history that I can’t argue with the hyperbole. You did not have nearly the influence that you claim in the outcome of any of the past few days. You just don’t. And I haven’t even revisited properly the executions of Frogsterking or Skitter. Which you’ve completely glossed over.

Aristeia is centrally responsible for the death of IV. You aren’t. You’re claiming an absurd amount of credit for something you weren’t primarily responsible for, and didn’t vote for. You’ve voted for No Execution (which btw, I did too), and that’s the extent of what you’ve actually done over the last several days. This constant “refocus” you claim to have been doing on IV? It’s just nonsense. Aristeia kept the light constantly focused there, and you so obviously took a back seat it’s really funny.

Strategically, you didn’t have a choice. You clearly wanted to maximize your pocket of Aristeia, and envisioned that would get you a victory. Well, I suspect you’ve succeeded, in as much as I expect Mathblade to vote for me since they’ve claimed to have made up their mind without reading any of my responses.

[Andresvmb]

@Mathblade, I’m fine with you voting.

I’ve accepted the outcome either way.

[Datisi]

Did you actually read the post you’re quoting from Koba? You’re arguing in another post that you can’t read Koba’s mind. But then you proceed to make an argument entirely based on your speculation of what was going on in Koba’s mind. This is obvious nonsense.

And Koba has gotten me wrong in multiple games now. And I’ve been Town in all of them (since, as you know, I have yet to receive a Scum PM). That’s probably why they chucked me as null. It’s not because they were afraid to die N1. By that logic, they never should have attacked 2 Scum. Like why stop at 2? If you’re a loud threat to 2/3rds of the Team, are you seriously arguing that they would not shoot them only because they didn’t call out the entire Team? C’mon now this is a total fantasy. You’re putting words in Koba’s mouth in a blatant way.

falsely equating my arguments in order to be able to claim a non-existent contradiction, love to see it. i cannot know how koba is going to react around lapla, because i have never played with lapla, they have never played with lapla. but (1) i'm aware that they often lie about their reads, either to get scum to slip or to manipulate the nightkill (i even commented on this when they revealed they were fake-townreading lapla), and (2) they called you null, when i know of at least one semi-recent game (august '21, i think?) where they called you an easy read. so i don't think it's unreasonable for me to conclude "huh, koba might have been bullshitting about andres's alignment because they thought he was scum", but even if that is not the case and they were considering you null... it still doesn't defeat any of my other points of them never having misread me, and every single other townread that they had on d1 here being correct.

[Datisi]

You also DID place IV as a top Town Read in one of the posts I quoted, but you’re conveniently forgetting to mention that.

that was so bad i didn't think it needed refuting, but if you insist - i placed him at the top of my readslist as a MASON claim. i posted that wallpost right after d2 started, obviously it was pre-written. and i didn't have the insider information at the time to know that house was actually fakeclaiming and that iv isn't a mason.

[Datisi]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

there is a very big difference between the two. i could write multiple thousand words on it, and i'd had to explain this concept before, but the main point is: if i'm scum here, pushing lapla is what i would do as town. but nobody in the town knows that, because nobody can actually read my mind. so i lose nothing by shutting the fuck up and not making him attract heat early. and it's not like i could've known that koba was going to latch onto lapla, your argument necessitates me being a lowkey koba mind reader.

the fact that you're linking 695 and 738 in order to refute my point is laughable. read what 738 says, "i do not townread iv, but i want to kill lapla first". nowhere am i setting up a clean trajectory for townreading iv later on. and 1153 isn't even a push, it's a sorting question.

This argument that you lose nothing is demonstrably false. You lose in the department that I know you care most about as Scum - establishing credibility. You’re too loud as Scum not to want to weave a narrative throughout the game. In the post you quoted, you indicated that as Scum, you are all about establishing a thought process that’s sensible and appears Town, but gets you closer to winning. I suspect you also know that I play the same way. The main thread behind a lot of your arguments against me is that you work meticulously to establish a narrative that gets you closer to victory, and leaves little to chance. But by implication, you’re making it sound like I can’t play like this or don’t. But this is bullshit. I do worry tremendously as Scum about the forward implications of every move I make. Yet you insisted on highlighting repeatedly throughout this game how I’m unlikely to have placed a vote of Laplacian in the way that I did, without much angling to take credit for anything. There’s an extension to this. I continued to argue for a mechanical solution to IV’s alignment I believed in, when strategically the clear choice was to distance hard at that stage. Because frankly, as Scum there, only one of us is required to win the game. You’re arguing that you didn’t have to bus in ELo because you take your wins as you can get them, but strategically you were in a bind. You very clearly couldn’t go against Aristeia’s wishes without exposing yourself, and you continued to sit back and let Aristeia drive the Endgame while continuously asking you if you were Town. Sure, you can argue that you notoriously act indecisive in ELo. But how convenient? When the chips were down, you totally failed to vote for Scum.

again, the first part of this post is implying that i as scum am so good at reading the room that i could sense that, right after that post from lapla was made, people are gonna find it suspicious, and that my future credibility is going to take a devastating hit unless i start bussing and screaming how he's scum right then and there.

i have no clue how you play scum, this is your first scumgame on this forum. snarky jokes aside, you are now arguing that the clear choice on d4/5 would've been distancing because only one of us is required to win the game, but why? from an objective standpoint, why would you start distancing when you have a scum (iv) who everyone considers locktown due to their claim and shitty setup spec? and again, who cares about exposing myself when math is already voting ari, iv is voting ari, house is screaming how he's gonna hammer her (though more than likely bait, so we'll ignore him) and i have you BEGGING me to vote ari so you could hammer. like, reading your posts on d4 once she was on two votes, you wanted to vote there. and you had been angling to vote there on d5 as well. you're telling me i'm doing revisionist history, but you're deadass trying to tell me that, with a straight face, you wanna argue how the correct choice there for scum!me was to BUS AND DISTANCE?

also, "you failed to vote scum", he says after he no-warning lolhammered iv to be able to shut aristeia up. after spending the entire past two days saying how he wants to vote aristeia, and lowkey slipping how i'm town, and arguing how iv is town. while i was trying to get ari/math to stop arguing and was trying to shut out the faulty mechanical discussion. i'm scum because i didn't vote iv. ok.

[Andresvmb]

You also DID place IV as a top Town Read in one of the posts I quoted, but you’re conveniently forgetting to mention that.

that was so bad i didn't think it needed refuting, but if you insist - i placed him at the top of my readslist as a MASON claim. i posted that wallpost right after d2 started, obviously it was pre-written. and i didn't have the insider information at the time to know that house was actually fakeclaiming and that iv isn't a mason.

I just think you took advantage of the situation to move pressure away from IV, but sure.

[Andresvmb]

Did you actually read the post you’re quoting from Koba? You’re arguing in another post that you can’t read Koba’s mind. But then you proceed to make an argument entirely based on your speculation of what was going on in Koba’s mind. This is obvious nonsense.

And Koba has gotten me wrong in multiple games now. And I’ve been Town in all of them (since, as you know, I have yet to receive a Scum PM). That’s probably why they chucked me as null. It’s not because they were afraid to die N1. By that logic, they never should have attacked 2 Scum. Like why stop at 2? If you’re a loud threat to 2/3rds of the Team, are you seriously arguing that they would not shoot them only because they didn’t call out the entire Team? C’mon now this is a total fantasy. You’re putting words in Koba’s mouth in a blatant way.

falsely equating my arguments in order to be able to claim a non-existent contradiction, love to see it. i cannot know how koba is going to react around lapla, because i have never played with lapla, they have never played with lapla. but (1) i'm aware that they often lie about their reads, either to get scum to slip or to manipulate the nightkill (i even commented on this when they revealed they were fake-townreading lapla), and (2) they called you null, when i know of at least one semi-recent game (august '21, i think?) where they called you an easy read. so i don't think it's unreasonable for me to conclude "huh, koba might have been bullshitting about andres's alignment because they thought he was scum", but even if that is not the case and they were considering you null... it still doesn't defeat any of my other points of them never having misread me, and every single other townread that they had on d1 here being correct.

The thing is this is nonsense. You keep insisting that Koba had an incentive to not call me out as Scum to survive, but surely they knew that if they had correctly picked out a majority of the Team, with a player list full of players that know how they are, they were never going to survive N1. So they clearly had a massive incentive to attack me if they truly felt I was Scum, but they didn’t.

Koba also said not to execute you until ELo, and here we are. You again conveniently leave that out because it fits your narrative.

[Datisi]

like, this whole thing is ignoring the fact how much of a micromanaging control freak i am as scum. if i had decided that we are bussing lapla and that iv and i are gonna party like it's 2175, then i go into the scumchat and say "ay yo lapla, sorry buddy you have to die, iv, this is how and when you're gonna vote him in order to look beeyoutiful after that flip, got it?" and then iv would go "sir yes sir" because he's aware i'm a way better scum player than he is and he'd look great after that flip and i wouldn't have to write bullshit "iv is NOT townie for the bullshit you're townreading him for but we're getting lapla first" posts

and then i would feel great shame about myself because i had just shitbussed a newbie into the ground a on page 8 but you know

IV couldn’t have fitted into your plans how you describe here because since the early part of the game, they loudly proclaimed to be taking a step back. So this is just a total fantasy again. You have been put into a position where you had to hard carry or die, and you’ve let IV skate on their claim while continuously questioning it for distance, and bussing Laplacian who so laughably froze, they didn’t even come into the thread with a claim.

first, this is assuming that iv 100% would've also said that he's "taking a step back" if he were in a scumteam with me, because it's possible i would've told him that's a good way to attract bad attention. but even if he did, he was still around here and there on day 1, and i know he's present in scum pt's much more than main threads. and i go all in on my busses. he would've hade more than enough opportunities to plop a lapla vote down. i don't have a problem outlining his posts for him if it's needed, either.

"let iv skate on the claim, but also spent the entirety of d5 convincing dumb townies who thought he was town that he's actually faking it". yep.

[Datisi]

like, this whole thing is ignoring the fact how much of a micromanaging control freak i am as scum. if i had decided that we are bussing lapla and that iv and i are gonna party like it's 2175, then i go into the scumchat and say "ay yo lapla, sorry buddy you have to die, iv, this is how and when you're gonna vote him in order to look beeyoutiful after that flip, got it?" and then iv would go "sir yes sir" because he's aware i'm a way better scum player than he is and he'd look great after that flip and i wouldn't have to write bullshit "iv is NOT townie for the bullshit you're townreading him for but we're getting lapla first" posts

and then i would feel great shame about myself because i had just shitbussed a newbie into the ground a on page 8 but you know

IV couldn’t have fitted into your plans how you describe here because since the early part of the game, they loudly proclaimed to be taking a step back. So this is just a total fantasy again. You have been put into a position where you had to hard carry or die, and you’ve let IV skate on their claim while continuously questioning it for distance, and bussing Laplacian who so laughably froze, they didn’t even come into the thread with a claim.

first, this is assuming that iv 100% would've also said that he's "taking a step back" if he were in a scumteam with me, because it's possible i would've told him that's a good way to attract bad attention. but even if he did, he was still around here and there on day 1, and i know he's present in scum pt's much more than main threads. and i go all in on my busses. he would've hade more than enough opportunities to plop a lapla vote down. i don't have a problem outlining his posts for him if it's needed, either.

"let iv skate on the claim, but also spent the entirety of d5 convincing dumb townies who thought he was town that he's actually faking it". yep.