In post 1759, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote: In post 1327, Titan wrote: In post 1151, Lord Business wrote:I had RBD as town lean.
There appears to be no direct tactical reasoning to their trolling, they occasionally seen to return to the game point and if I can be a hypocrite for a moment the meta of both of the heads suggest they are quite relaxed in the game and I believe one of them was the mafia player of the year for being strongly townread in several games as scum, whereas here the effort to gain such a read isn't there.
They also happened to agree with me over the demoralising nature of "obvtown-gate" so I currently have a bias in their favour.
That one head your talking about also didn't try to get town read in NY169.
Yeah, I did, kinda, just in slightly different ways than I normally try to as scum
In post 1329, Just Sheep Us wrote: In post 1246, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Hey BRO
Just so we're clear
You think we claimed Hated Miller Gladiator out the gate because... we're scum who decided claiming an extremely negative utility role that was easily provable was a gooooooooood idea because... DERP DERP DERP I'M BRO AND I'M HOPING NOBODY THINKS ABOUT THIS AND THIS MISLYNCH GOES THROUGH WITHOUT ME LOOKING OBVSCUM
last i checked you were completely off the radar for the first fifty pages of the game
so...???
I was "off the radar" because people didn't realise it was a serious claim. I clarified it was a serious claim, so your objection here is pathetically weak.
I was also off the radar because nobody had the balls to commit to a fucking read on me because that's how shit goes now apparently, but it's not like I wasn't in the thick of things
But since you have a scum read on me, how about you talk about the reasons you think I'm scum
In post 1331, Just Sheep Us wrote: In post 1261, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Because not only is he trying to pass it off as an "obvtown" entrance (because he knows he's done it as town before, but he also isn't stupid enough to realise it's something he could fake as scum, so it's not a fucking obvtown entrance, and him calling it obvtown is because he's hoping people draw the parallels and call it obvtown because he's done it as town before) but I think it's an entrance he specifically did as scum trying to imitate his town game because I already thought the fucking slot was scum prior the the replacement.
man that plan really wor--oh wait, no it didn't
so do you think ap is incompetent? why do you think scum-ap would tailor his game to you, of all people in this playerlist?
I don't have any opinion on AP as a player. I've played with him twice before (both times town) and he was average both times. I'm not sure what he's capable of as scum, but you're missing the point completely or you're just playing dumb here.
He used an opening he's used before as town, correct? You're following so far? Stop me at the point I've lost you because I know I'm talking to a special person here and I don't want to go too fast. Let's think about why he would do this. It's possible he's town and thought, "OMG, a good way to enter this game is to use an opening I've done as town before, an opening that I could easily fake as scum, and then berate people when they don't think I'm obvtown because of my opening posts! I'll call them really, really obvtown and criticise anyone who disagrees because that is a sensible thing to do!" You seem to think this is what he did. But again, I know you're a... very special person... so I'm not particularly surprised you think this. I think the more likely scenario is that he's scum and thought, "hey I'm going to imitate an opening that most of the player list has seen me do as town before and then criticise anyone who thinks it isn't a town entrance because they know I've done it as town before!" <- not only did he actually do this, but he didn't even have to bring up the past game he did it as town for comparison because it was an unconscious link that... special players like yourself... made. this is exactly the sort of thing i did in gif's touhou game with the way i approached the gaiden lynch D1; i didn't want to point out myself that it was unlike what i've done as scum in the past, i let cabd point out my usual bussing meta and then i let YOU (desp) point out that he was, in fact, wrong. i think AP was doing a similar thing here.
In post 1334, Just Sheep Us wrote: In post 1307, AngryPidgeon wrote:Gonna be honest, as much as I want to believe BRO is right about me, I really think hes going for townpoints with this gladiator push. I think he thinks its expected of him? Or hes just trying to get me on his side? BRO is an objectively good player and pushing gladiators because you got gladiated by scum once is not objectively good play.
what fucking townpoints are available for pushing a gladiator claim like 2 weeks after they claimed it when the slot has had less than zero pressure on it?
i think you're doing it not because you think it will give you town points, but because you think it's expected of you (as town, you would push a lynch on a gladiator claim is what you think. so you are not analysing things in a town way and instead you're blindly pushing this)
In post 1339, Kagura wrote:CF wrote:If that's the case, his annoyance is misplaced. He could maybe address the people creating noisy back-and-forths as opposed to someone like me who is keeping noise to a minimum. There is plenty of stuff that I haven't responded to and don't intend to because I don't believe it will help me solve the game. Most of my back-and-forths are questions, conversations, or analysis/explanations of reads.
This is a really town post.
-b
No, it isn't.
So in spite of me pointing out that your reasoning is completely flawed, you're like, "Nope, townread stands!"
K
And you wonder why people don't read you as town
In post 1342, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you can't handle the fact that I tend to come up with strange and seemingly illogical reasons when I'm pushed for them, you should hang me every game.
It's not that your reasons are illogical, it's that they're blatantly wrong and you don't seem to care
I suppose that does actually make them illogical... hmm
How the fuck should I be reading you as town when you don't care that you're wrong?
In post 1342, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you're town, I would like you to iso me again, try to be just a teensy bit objective, and tell me you still think I'm scum, and why would be appreciated but is optional. I happen to think the position that I am scum is not only untenable but becoming increasingly so.
I'm not going to ISO you. I can tell you why I think you're scum off the top of my head. All your pushes this game have come from a place that doesn't make sense from a town perspective. Your mastin push is a really good example of this (I am still not sure why you actually think mastin is scum when they're really obviously not and I see you using the excuse that you always think mastin looks scummy to hide behind in the same way you did in Xenosaga) but all of your other pushes come from a place that makes just as little sense. The vote on me? What the fuck was that bullshit? Honestly. Like wow. I know it was the DV head but fucking wow. One of the most hilariously bad votes I've ever seen placed on me. And when I pointed out how fucking illogical it was, you guys just shrugged it off and said, "Nope, still not wrong!" Really. Fucking. Town. Of you guys.
In post 1342, The Fox and the Hound wrote:I don't understand how you can even think that I should clearly think Mastin is town, because they've given me basically no reason to at all and plenty to think the opposite, ie pushing for an easy mislynch on me like it's literally a stronger conviction than most people's religions and still can't even pretend to have a reason excpet "this is soooooooooooooo scum" as though having a sufficient number of vowels in a word makes it extra convincing.
This is such a load of bullshit. Firstly, if this is your reason for thinking mastin is scum, then why isn't mastin justified in thinking you're scum. Because you literally have no reason for thinking mastin is scum that isn't virtually identical to why mastin thinks you're scum (but with less substance because mastin has more reasons to think you're scum than just this). Secondly, mastin is obvtown, and I don't expect you to see it (partially because you're scum and partially because you have no fucking clue how to read mastin). But what you should know is that I know how to read mastin and I'm telling you mastin isn't scum here. Instead of finding out why I think mastin isn't scum, you're ignoring it and going, "Nope, mastin scum! I'm right!" Again. Not. A. Town. Thought. Process.
Tell you what. Why don't you sum up all the reasons you think mastin is scum for me, so I have something to assess. Because so far I haven't seen any town thought processes coming from your push here. Convince me I'm wrong.
In post 1345, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
The thing is, in that game you were making logical arguments. Your points had some merit. Your attitude was completely different. In that game you even acknowledged that the people who were scum reading you had a fucking point because you knew your play wasn't town-looking at the beginning of that game and it was only after you started putting in effort that you really came across as town looking. And even then it was different to this game because in that game you were assessing things in a town-looking way. Here? Not seeing it.
The thing is I can't give examples of something that's not there. So I can't show that you're not assessing things in the same way you were in 169. So comparing this to 169 is just dumb.
In post 1345, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
I actually think this is more similar to your Xenosaga play than your 169 play (I didn't, and won't, read 165 so I don't care about that). In Xenosaga, you made up similar reasons to tunnel mastin, similarly terrible reasons, while ignoring everyone pointing out that you're wrong, and hiding behind the mask of, "I always think mastin looks scummy!"
It was bullshit there, it's bullshit here.
I think you use it because mastin is an easy target to push (barely anybody reads anything mastin writes so you can look like you're having an argument with someone and know that the person you're arguing with won't be listened to)
I do not think you're taking a step back here and looking for the ways in which you could be wrong. I do not think you actually think you're right here. Or at least if you do, you could come up with better reasons for your push than you currently have.
I also think you're scum here for a reason I'd rather not talk about at this point in time but may talk about at a later time if it's convenient for me.
No, I'm not scum reading AP for his entrance (though I do not think it was a town entrance). I'm scum reading him because I thought his predecessor was scum, and I do not think his play so far (up to p54, still catching up) looks town. The opening was one example, the back-and-forth with mastin was another.
In post 1351, Breakfast With Sandy wrote: In post 1345, The Fox and the Hound wrote:If anyone reads a single one of my posts this game, make it this one.
Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=400
I am not hard to win arguments against. Because I very often can't back up my actions. My stances sometimes don't make sense, and even when they do, I hardly know why I have the opinions I do.
If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200
I can't make those links work properly. But it really is worth bothering to look at them.
All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's seeming as though the people who normally prevent me from being a free mislynch are not interested. This bothers me, but whatever. Scum appear to have figured this out. Without them I'm little better than 2008 consistent day 1 lynch cephrir. Maybe it's not the people I think it is, but they will be on this wagon. That's not a threat, it's a promise.
I feel like the gang up on me here feels exactly like 169, and I think the people I'm fighting with are going to turn out to be scum again. Please actually think about this and make this the one time you all don't completely ignore someone posthumously if I am indeed lynched today. That is all.
This is town as fuck.
No it fucking isn't. Please don't buy that shit. The first line specifically was an appeal that's similar to ones I've made as scum in the past. The content in the post is not particularly convincing either way. It's nowhere near "town as fuck".
In post 1352, Just Sheep Us wrote:AP, you realize I didn't state a town read on you until after mastin/RBD started pushing you on your entrance, right?
Why didn't you?
In post 1354, MastinSSK wrote:All-in-all, Cephrir is the type of player who you have to look at the reasoning, not the wording. And his reasoning here is basically the same thing that I used to catch him in Xenogears. He's doing things that he really shouldn't be doing if he was town. Among them, his push on me. Because in Xenogears, he knew I was town and that I wasn't giving reasoning, yet he brought it up in this game as if he had never encountered it before.
IAWTP. Except that I think Cephrir can be read off of posting style. I think his scum play is similar to mine (especially in that he knows most of the ins and outs of both his scum and town games and can therefore tailor specific aspects of it to meta players) but I think there are tonal differences that distinguish his town and scum games. I'm not extremely confident I'm picking up on the right things, but I am reading him here as scum tonally - it's a different kind of vibe to the one I was getting in the hydra open and 169.
Why do you think this? Because you've still yet to really talk about it
In post 1359, MastinSSK wrote:Today, we're lynching one of {Just Sheep Us, The Fox and The Hound, AngryPidgeon}.
RBD is going to gladiate one of the two survivors.
There's no other way the days will go.
You get no choice in who we gladiate.
In post 1363, Just Sheep Us wrote:RBD scumread is because they've been buddying the fuck out of mastin at every juncture, even when she's making pushes that are terribad (like the early tammy push, the CF push, etc).
That's because I have a lot of confidence in my ability to read mastin and I have a _really_ good history of reading him correctly in 100% of the games we've been in so far. I mean, granted, even when I'm scum I have to do the same thing, but thinking I'm scum because of it is about as dumb as dumb can be. If this is BRO and he read _any_ of Xenosaga, then I'm considering this a scum claim. Because he should know I do this with mastin, he's seen my approach to mastin in many games now, this should not come as a surprise to him and he should not think this means anything about my alignment (though I would argue that I don't think I'd play it the same as scum, but *shrug*)
I mean, I literally just did the same thing in the completed Xenosaga game where I read mastin as town off his opening posts and stuck with the read the entire game despite a majority disagreeing with it. And I was town there. So...? What? Am I just scum here because ~magic~?
In post 1363, Just Sheep Us wrote:Fast forward to your entrance, and with mastin/RBD pushing something on you as scummy that's objectively null, ESPECIALLY given that you're probably the trolliest "strong" player on site, and yeah, I'm not gonna let that shit slide.
But it's not null, and I explained why it's not null when you asked me about it. Why are you ignoring that?
In post 1364, Just Sheep Us wrote:Okay I actually have to finish that paper that's due in about an hour now because I was too angry at mastin/muffin to finish it last night.
It's OK. I get upset when people peg me as scum, too. :<
In post 1370, Cephrir wrote:But, actually, I would love to talk about Xenogears, because I've been treading on fucking eggshells trying not to. Why do you think I was trying not to jump down your throat this game, it's because at first I thought you felt the same way you did in that game (i.e. "damn I see absolutely no way this can possibly be town"). I've been trying to play it off like I have substantial meta with you apart from that game but I actually pretty much don't. Anything I've claimed to know about the way you play has basically been that. You may notice that I won the argument there and came reasonably close to getting you lynched. I also scumread you in that game because I literally knew I would be jumping down your throat if I was town. And hey guess what, here I am. I know there are style issues muddying things here and I don't even give a fuck. I'm done trying to convince myself to hold back because you literally could not be scummier. For someone so concerned with how good I am at imitating my town game you sure don't seem to be considering that I was doing exactly that in Xenogears. Yet another thing that bothers me is that you would approach me in exactly the same way you did that game, with random ass scumreads. Of course I'm going to blow up on you. I really fucking hate baseless reads. It's ridiculous that you think that means anything.
All I got from this wall is that you're acknowledging mastin is playing similar to how he played as town, you're acknowledging you have absolutely no idea how to read him, but you don't care, and you aren't putting forth good reasons for thinking he's scum (rather, you're creating noise that distracts - like the above)
In post 1377, MastinSSK wrote:Except it isn't? It's the exact argument a scum-me would make to save my ass against players I know I'm caught against. Bring up weaknesses in my play (that are mostly true regardless of my alignment), bring up past games that show said weaknesses, appeal to said past games as comparisons, say "this is that, not this", and basically, appeal to aspects of my play in the current game that I specifically manipulated knowing about my own meta better than any other player.
Mastin sees it. It is, at best, a null post, but really, I think the post is exactly the sort of thing scum-Cephrir would write, so I'm leaning more towards it being a scum post than a null post.
In post 1382, Kagura wrote:Even if he is scum, how is it in any way more pro-town to rely entirely on the reads of an unconfirmed player than to let the game progress normally?
-b
Horrible post
How the fuck do you think mafia is played?
In post 1383, The Fox and the Hound wrote:This is impossible to respond to. You are basically devolving into arguing that I am scum because I don't sound like scum. There is nothing I can do with that.
Firstly, I don't believe mastin was asking you to do anything with it. Secondly, it's not calling you scum because you don't look like scum; it's calling you scum because you're doing something that scum would do (selectively pick things out and pretend there are similarities to your town game and differences between this and your scum game.
Do you literally know nothing about how mastin plays? Because your posting actually looks like scum confidence. Mastin's looks like mastin-posting.
Apparently not that well since I got lynched there anyway!
(But let's ignore that part)
I'm not actually sure you even know what our reads are, because Nati and I aren't even reading the game identically, let alone Mastin and I. We have some reads we agree on, and some we disagree on, and if you were following you'd know that. Just because we agree on a few key reads for similar reasons does not mean we're reading the game identically.
Further, once I've established a town read on mastin, I tend to ignore the bad pushes (because I know they are mastin-pushes rather than scum-pushes) but I don't even see the bad pushes you're talking about. What are you specifically referring to here?
In post 1396, AngryPidgeon wrote:Ok I would understand if you guys just had a hydra QT that you use for everything. But why did you start calling it the hydra QT, for this game
You wouldnt do that unless there was more than one QT. Its a subconscious thing. So what is this other QT you posted in for this game
This is p awful
So is it a meta-based read, then? Or just a, "I'm going to ignore logical counter-points and say I'm right anyway because I'm a wizard!" read?
In post 1400, The Fox and the Hound wrote:How's that not using meta working for you, oh just fine actually since this meta is not even correct
Trying to explain why I am not scum is not alignment indicative and never will be
It's not that you "explained why you're not scum" (you didn't), it's the way in which you did it that makes you scum.
And no, explaining why you're not scum isn't alignment indicative and that's not what mastin was saying, sooooooooooooooooooo YEAH
In post 1405, AngryPidgeon wrote:Suddenly saying "the QT.. FOR THIS GAME" means there is more than one QT and you felt the need to subconsciously specify which Nacho/Bork QT you were posting in. The one for this game. The scum QT. The OTHER GAME Qt is probably, you know, the zelda one.
This push is still p awful
Reeks of scum trying to find a "slip" to comment on
In post 1411, The Fox and the Hound wrote:The only player in this game actually deserving of being called obvtown is Tammy.
Personally I think F-16 is almost as strongly town, but it's not "obv" or everyone would agree to it.
I don't actually think Tammy looks as obvtown as people make her out to be, but I don't have a scum read on her atm. I think the direction of a lot of her posts is pretty bad, and she's not really involved in a way that looks town, but I see some posts here and there that look kinda townish, if I squint. I'm not particularly interested in pushing her since I expect a majority of the player list is going to want to NK her at some point if she is actually town, so that'll sort itself out eventually anyway
Nati, on the other hand, seems to think she's really blatantly scum. And he's reading her based off tone or something I think? Not sure. WE HAVEN'T TALKED IN A WHILE AND I DON'T THINK HE PLANS TO READ THIS BULLSHIT
As for F-16, same deal. I think he's town but there are a lot of weird things that are putting me off calling him strongly town, and again, Nati has the exact opposite opinion here.
In post 1415, Titan wrote:I didn't really like the "I feel lost so much meta I don't get" dealio. Prohawk has played in the last two tales games, and that's been the majority of the meta stuff save some more nominal things.
IAWTP and it's what specifically pinged me about Prohawk's post at that point in time. It felt like he was just trying to make up some bullshit reason for why he wasn't engaged in the game. It's similar to what I did in 169, actually, where I pretended to be overwhelmed and I really wasn't.
IAWTP as well
Really don't get the PV town reads, especially since nothing he's doing looks to be coming from a town mindset. One thing I did as I followed the Dark Ages game is monitor PV's posting because I really wanted to be able to distinguish between his antitown town play and his scum play and one of the pointers I am using for distinguishing between the two is the sorts of analysis he does. And this game I'm not feeling a town approach to his analyses.
In post 1425, Titan wrote:But can you really say this about mastin with a straight face after anything goes?
I can and I will. I said this in AOT. I said this in the Open Hydra game. Mastin makes his alignment reallllllllly fucking obvious to anyone who knows how to tell the difference between his scum and town games. I can't really help it if some people just don't have a clue how to do this, but I can say that mastin makes his alignment very, very obvious (far more than any other player I play with, IMO)
It baffles me that people can
apparently
read you but cannot read mastin. *shrug*
In post 1435, AngryPidgeon wrote:Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us
I find this reads list really fucking weird
Especially given the stuff you're saying about certain players at this point. Also I'm probably the player you have the least experience with in this player list, but you seem to have a lot of confidence in your read on me
No, Beli, why do you do this?
I don't want to have to start calling you bellend
:<
In post 1451, Titan wrote:I don't know what it is, but I'm far more likely to join your wagon than the fox and the hound. That's for sure!
Why? What about FoxHound looks townier than Mastin?
In post 1452, CarbonFiber wrote:You've seen me play as town before, right? You think I wouldn't have five solid townreads by post 450?
-FT
Was that your post or F16's? I assumed it was F16, and I do not think he'd have so many solid town reads so quickly. Did you guys discuss them and, if so, were they 5 reads you mutually agreed were solid, so much so that you were fine with, in your words, using PoE to find 4 scum in the remaining 11 players?
Also, at the time of this post (Wed April 9) I had no completed games with you, so I dunno where you were pulling this from.
Then you really do suck at reading me!
In post 1467, Kagura wrote:No, I unvoted in case Tammy was actually crying.
I've always been willing to give people as much room as they'd like to talk: that doesn't mean that I still don't think they are scum.
Desp quite literally said in thread that you bought Tammy's AtE and he still thought Tammy was scum but you didn't.
In post 1481, Kagura wrote:I feel Muffin would be less likely to constantly troll as scum than as town, but that's not really based in any sort of evidence or reality. I still wouldn't be unhappy voting them, still reading though.
OK. Just to make this clear, what you're calling "trolling" isn't _really_ trolling since it's not like I'm being deliberately anti-town in some way, I'm just having a bit of fun with my posts. It's also not an alignment-based thing, as much as people want to insist it is, and it certainly isn't something I couldn't do as scum. Trolling would be more like what I did in the beginning of Xenosaga (especially re: Brian wagon) which
could
potentially be called anti-town (thus trolling) but even that is something I think I could get away with as scum with the right sway.
But I'm not really trolling here. There are some posts that I wrote knowing they weren't adding anything to the game (short posts with no content in them, or the Captain's Log post for example) but a majority of my posts are pretty fucking game-relevant. Why don't you have an opinion on them?
Oh, goodie, I cannot wait to read the explanations for this one. Should be fucking hilarious.
In post 1483, CarbonFiber wrote:Fox's reactions to the pressure on them felt incredibly genuine and most of their posting so far is relatable and makes sense. Their Disney picture presenting the Rancid vote was hilarious and natural.
This actually made me do a double-take. In what way was Cephrir's reaction to the suspicion of them natural? Instead of an actual town reaction, like I dunno, calling the fact that Mastin wasn't presenting solid reasons bullshit, or I dunno, actually giving reasons to think Mastin is scum, they're instead just going with the "create as much noise as possible and hope people don't realise that's what we're doing" routine.
I also do not believe for one second that you've never seen scum make a similar post to that "Disney picture" one. Like. Seriously? How fucking naive are you?
In post 1483, CarbonFiber wrote:BRO and Desp's reads match mine very closely, I don't have a read on BRO yet but I can see eye to eye with Desp.
Since when do reads aligning make for a good reason to call someone else town? When I'm scum I specifically tailor my reads to align with other players
because
going with the flow is a good way to avoid suspicion.
Holy shit. Again. Do not believe you are this naive.
Why so much defense of FoxHound and DespBro here when what you should be doing is explaining why you think we're scum with Mastin AND AP?
In post 1487, Just Sheep Us wrote:That reads as town b/c it demonstrates a lack of groundedness and defined objectives that scum-AP would have (especially given that scum have day talk).
Uh, do they? Where was this stated?
In post 1504, Kagura wrote: In post 1152, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:Don't really give a shit. Nati has basically checked out of the game because of RL and not wanting to read this shit. His last post was 676 (last Friday) and prior to that 441 (last Tuesday). And considering I didn't even intend to play this game, and
I'm the head that nobody is ever going to town read no matter what I do, I've lost interest in even attempting to look town here.
I want this group of players to burn with fucking fire: {AP, despbro, foxhound, PV, GIF}. And I've been wanting this for a while
If you really want to try and lynch me, despbro, I'll 1v1 you tomorrow
Where did this come from?
I'm getting a little fucking tired of seeing every reads list in every game I'm in, regardless of alignment, not include me in any place except null (or possible null-scum for ~reasons~) - i mean, even when i think i'm being really fucking transparent in all of my fucking posts, apparently people have trouble reading it. OK, I get it, I've burned some people before, but it's seriously fucking annoying. If you want to know where it's coming from (even prior to 1543 ending, though I think that was partially where my frustration was coming from) it's because I don't think there's anything I could possibly do that's going to convince anyone I'm town if they simply don't want to be convinced. Which makes me apathetic as fuck. I didn't want to play this game, but Nati asked me to. I didn't want to play it because I'm over games with this player list. Not because I don't enjoy playing with you guys (in general, I have nothing against you); but because it's so fucking tiring having such a fucking high mountain to climb every time I want to get town read when I'm actually town. I'm fine with putting in that sort of effort as scum because I consider it a challenge, but as town? I don't want to have to put in mountains and mountains of effort not knowing whether I'll be successful, not knowing whether it's going to even make a difference or whether it's just going to be fucking ignored because "lol muffin could totally do that as scum". There are some things I legitimately don't think I can do as scum, and while I don't really want to talk about them in detail, I'm hoping people figure it out at some point because I'm getting fucking sick of this shit.
So yeah, when I saw the multiple reads lists in this game that didn't include my name anywhere (literally; go read every single reads list in this game and try to find my name. you can't, except for maybe one or two recently) it sapped my will. It's fucking taxing. I don't like it. I don't consider myself any harder to read than, say, a player like you, but apparently people can form town or scum reads on you easily and have difficulty putting me as anything other than null.
I am both appalled and disgusted that you think I would ever do something like that
Also, all the "alt slips" bar one have been because I don't want to log into a hydra from work (so no, that wasn't me pretending to be Nati) - I was at work at the time, thus no, any RBD post then came from Nati.
In post 1528, MastinSSK wrote: The two are mutually exclusive?
The way it's done makes the difference, though. And I care as much as I do because people are letting them get away with a BS point that at BEST (KEY WORD BEING "AT BEST" MEANING CAN BE AND I THINK IS WORSE!) is null.
Again, it's the way it was done. This is something a bit difficult to describe, since it kinda ties into the magic-town stuff, about a player who either is or isn't scum. And that's part of it. A town player generally has a good idea of why they're town...but can't (or if they can, won't) point to specific things that make them town, especially not things tied to the difference/similarities between games.
Nor scum-PV. Because there is no PV to be seen, yet, not really. PV not giving content isn't a scumtell; it's a nulltell. So it'll be easier to get a read on him after there is more content. (And if he doesn't give it, then he can be lynched. But it wouldn't be a lynched-for-being-scum; it'd be a policy-lynch, to stop dragging the game down with lack of contribution, a factor that can and has lost him games. Yet this isn't a D1 thing; this is a much later day, like at least D4, thing.)
In post 1425, Titan wrote:But can you really say this about mastin with a straight face after anything goes?
He can, and can even mean most of it together, too. Problem is that he probably wouldn't be, sooooooooooooooooo, yeah.
In post 1435, AngryPidgeon wrote:Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us
These reads don't jive with your posting. Like...I should be in the 'probably town' pile as I am, but...all your posting places me in the town pile. (For that matter, I think Mac's similar.) Vice-versa for RBD. They deserve the town spot, but all your posting is saying probably-town. Red Gyarados and orc are randomly thrown in there, too.
The bits below that also feel off. The Clyton-in-rest bit in particular.
All-in-all, this reads list feels like it could come from any AP...who has posted differently. From AP as he's posted this game, this reads list feels...
off
, in an intangible way that eludes me.
In post 1445, MastinSSK wrote:Cephrir, Xenogears, dead QT wrote:Mastin wasn't a threat, she was a mislynch I thought I could get. And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.
^Ceph's take on me last game.
Posting quickly, be back much later.
And now that I am back, I can elaborate. Basically, this is how Cephrir viewed me last game. Someone who, in spite of scumreading him, was no threat, and in fact, he thought I was mislynchable. He's got the exact same read of me this game. He doesn't think I'm a threat. He doesn't think that my scumread on him is problematic. He thinks he can actually get a lynch on me. And this attitude towards me is, again, a large part of the reason I think he's scum. (I had better wording in my head at the time, but I can't pull past-me's reasoning up.) Basically...he's playing a con game. Again. Like he was in that game. There were a multitude of comments about him being townread, and at least one or two of them were from meta if memory serves me. Because that's what he wanted them to see.
And this game, he's doing the same thing. There are a fair number of people townreading him, a LOT from meta, because that's what he wants them to see. Instead of him actually being town, he's made himself look like town. That's basically the main reason AP's scum, too, because AP's done the same damn thing. Yes. They look good, because they put effort into looking good. No, they aren't actually good. Because that wasn't their goal. They aren't aiming to be town; they're aiming to do a good job of looking town. That's my read of them, of their posting, of their situation.
IAWTP
(And I only quoted this to pad the length of this wall, lolololololol. Like I do agree with almost everything here, but yeah, didn't really need to quote this. But seriously, who the fuck is still reading this at this point? I'm pretty sure I could start ranting about penises or something at this point and nobody would even know. I think I'm going to do that, actually).
I have a penis. I'm now going to sing the penis song. It goes like this: penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis, penis. Not a great song, but whatever, it's catchy. Once it's in your head, it stays there for a while (until it goes flaccid? HA HA I'm hilarious)
I think Mastin is about the only one who's going to catch me talking about this, and only because mastin might browse through this post looking for mentions of "mastin". But if mastin has any sense, this won't be quoted. Let other people find it.
It's conveniently about midway into my wall so I don't think anyone is going to read it. I suppose I could make very sure by drawing an ascii penis. 8====D (Not to scale). Nobody is going to see this ever, anyway. Penis, once more, for good measure
In post 1533, The Fox and the Hound wrote:Someone did mention that it was possible I would fake this as scum and maybe it is? But I don't think it's something I would do? I don't know.
If I wasn't coming off a game where scum tried to suggest this same thing, I might be more inclined to believe this
Fucking blatantly lying. I know you have role information that suggests otherwise. L A FUCKING L
Because BRO's seen my approach to mastin, across multiple games. Even if he wasn't reading Xenosaga, for example, I'm sure you mentioned it to him somewhere (because you were scum reading me for a long time in that game, for much the same reason, but I shrugged it off because I know you haven't seen how I usually approach mastin). BRO on the other hand has no excuse for this. He's seen me, multiple times, read mastin off very few posts (sometimes even a single post) correctly (100% of the time). If BRO is the one trying to push the angle that it's weird for me to "buddy" mastin here, then I'm calling bullshit since it's obviously a fabricated read.
I also, in general, don't understand where their read on me is coming from, but that's another issue altogether. It would help if they explained it, but since they don't want to *shrug* I'm assuming guilty until proven innocent here
In post 1537, AngryPidgeon wrote:Like people start calling you suspicious and we get this "BTW IM ACTUALLY A GOOD ROLE" lobbed out for no reason.
Uh, er, um, no? I think he elaborated on that because someone specifically talked about his role possibly being useless. So uh, yeah. Not seeing where this is coming from.
Also don't really get this if you're town reading mastin (and all signs point to this being the case).
In post 1546, Mac wrote:but I don't think I've ever townread muffinman so fucking hard following the series of rage posts on 47.
Well, I'm sure it's going to disappoint you when I tell you that I wasn't actually raging, it was fake rage I was experimenting with because I wanted to see if anyone would town read me for it.
Apparently it worked. So yay me, I guess?
Not that anyone is going to read this, but if they do, sorry? I am actually town but I was never angry at this game (a little frustrated that people never seem to be able to town read me, but not really). Nati said he was sorry about it in the hydra QT and I had to explain to him that I wasn't really angry. lol Nati, lol. If I were angry at you, I'd have said so in the hydra QT, thillybilly.
In post 1549, Mac wrote:They're still null because I think their reasons for pushing RBD are poor, but that post was good.
Not you too, Mac,
You've been led astray!
They're not town, they're scum
Don't turn a blind eye to their play!
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE
In post 1557, PeregrineV wrote:If you mean the playerlist its because there are a shitload of hydras and I use my ISO like a QT thread to keep my thoughts. At some sorry point I'll have to crack through the hydra heads and look for tells, and isoing the mod+me+another player just for playerlist is a pain.
It seems far simpler to keep the names in a notepad / word document. Especially since then you don't have to keep scrolling back to the post to find out the names?
... ... ... Don't really believe you legitimately think this makes sense.
In post 1560, PeregrineV wrote: In post 1223, Rancid Broderick Drake wrote:PV is totally disengaged from the game in a way that he usually isn't when he's town. There's no signs of effort. There's no signs of analysis. There's no signs of anything that he does when he's town. The way he's disengaged from the game here reminds me of how he was playing in the recently finished mafiassk large. It's the same lack of analysis. The same lack of effort. I'm pretty sure PV is scum here and I know he looks like scum in every single fucking game but this is so blindingly obvious that I don't know how others cannot see it, let alone think he's town.
I used to be "hard town". What happened?
I am pretty sure you have me confused with someone else? I have not once called you town in this game. I am pretty sure Nati hasn't either. I know I haven't called you town because at no stage of this game have I thought that anything you've posted looked like it came from a town mindset.
In post 1563, PeregrineV wrote:Since you are REALLY sticking with this, when you gladiate, if it take 8 to lynch the other guy, does it take only 7 to lynch you? Or, is your hated modifer "always on", as it it ALWAYS takes one less than normal to lynch you?
Um, two things here:
Why would I answer this question? In what possible way could it benefit you or anybody else to know this information if I haven't already deemed it fit to share.
Is knowing the answer to this question going to advance the game in any way, shape or form? Because I can't see this as anything other than role fishing, and I cannot possibly fathom how my answer to this question would do anything to change how you're viewing the game at the moment. So, uh, yeah
Basically, I refuse to answer any questions that are role-related this game; when I deem it necessary, I might share some information, but I will not answer questions about it other than on a need-to-know basis.
massive amounts of :shifty eyes: here
(Also the only real resistance to this is coming from derps. Like F16, DespBro and FoxHound, and there's a preeeeeeeeeeettty decent chance of scum in those names sooooooooooooo yeah)
Not fucking like this, and town-PV probably wouldn't ask a question like this, phrased in this way
There's a severe lack of direction and analysis in your posts, PV. Sup with that?
Why not?
In post 1580, Titan wrote:I've also realized that if mastin and the rancid pirates are town then the scum team has made a deviation from my last several games from attacking me for weird reasons and are instead calling me town. (Though the attack by those two was fucking weird.). IF that's the case then I'm not sure how to distinguish right now between town recognizing me as town and scum calling me town because that's what they're supposed to do. It's fucking with my head to start looking cross eyed at people calling me town.
OK. So since I'm town and mastin is almost certainly town, if you are town, scum aren't attacking you. What are you going to do about it?
I'd rather not have to read you saying stuff like this; do something about it or don't talk about it.
Why not? What changed your mind about him? Because none of his posts prior to this one looked town at all, so I don't get where the change in the read comes from.
In post 1609, Kagura wrote:JSU - I have a big negative connection between them and RBD and that is probably about it.
? Does this mean you don't see us as the same alignment?
In post 1611, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:ns' activity really has been low sitewide recently from what I've seen. I'm going to wait and see what he brings to the game over the weekend I guess.
So now the weekend has come and gone, where you at with this?
'coz notscience completely disappearing is making me get all weird on him atm
I'm actually thinking of doing a strawpoll to decide whether or not we gladiate this game.
Except I think I already know the general consensus and FUCK THE GENERAL CONSENSUS
In post 1633, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:I hate mastin's attitude towards F/H and the logical fallacy that is painting Ceph's attitude towards her lynchability as independent of gamestate. The townmastin I know is smarter than that and I don't think mastin actually believes that harseshit this game, but false face must hide what false heart doth know .
I think you're somewhat misunderstanding mastin's stance here, and since mastin's stance here is somewhat similar to mine, I don't really get it.
I also loled at the comment about town-mastin being smarter than this, but whatevs
In post 1635, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:It didn't give me quite the same level of scumvibe, but I think that's because of xenosaga. there are some parallels between ceph's reads in the early game here and his day 1 in xenosaga, but ceph is a consummate scum player. I think it's actually more of a heartfelt townie thing that scum-ceph would avoid so soon after that game.
Thing is, I don't think Cephrir really had a choice about it. A distinct change in the way he approaches his read on mastin would set off more alarm bells than the way he's done it here. So what I'm seeing here is Cephrir thinking he would be scum reading mastin and so there is the scum read. But I'm not looking at this deeply because I could see this coming from scum- or town-Ceph. What bothers me is his reasoning here and his attitude towards mastin and mastin's read on him. I say he's hiding behind a mask of thinking mastin is scummy every game because that's all I'm seeing; no analysis, no attempts to discern mastin's alignment, just a scum read and a lot of noise. And this is why I don't think Cephrir is town here.
The fact he's doing it twice in a row is only because he thinks he would do it as town. Also maybe because he thinks "lol wouldn't do it twice in a row" is a good defense. But whatever.
Key point is you shouldn't get lost in reasoning like this and should instead look at it objectively.
I would like to see town in Cephrir's posting, but I can't. And I don't see how others can.
In post 1642, Kagura wrote:But I feel like mastin feels, well, 'flat' (sorry to use such a loaded word after that whole thing) as scum or gets defensive or tunnels or something else opaque and distracting and doesn't really absorb the gamestate.
THIS IS KIND OF TRUE AND A GOOD WAY TO DISCERN MASTIN'S ALIGNMENT
IF MORE PEOPLE SAW HOW OBVIOUS THIS WAS, THIS GAME WOULD BE EASY PICKINGS
In post 1667, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:where the rubber met the road in the last game we played together as town, when it came to who got lynched, my reads were more accurate than yours most of the time.
What is it that I should be seeing? What should tell me that THIS time I should subsume my reads and follow yours?
I don't think you should be trusting reads blindly (though I would like it a lot if you did!) but since you're not really engaging mastin (or me, but hey, I haven't really been involved in this game to be engaged with) on why you think he's wrong and why you think you're right, you're really just doing it wrong.
I think mastin is right. I think I've explained pretty clearly where I disagree with your read and why I think you're wrong. What do you think about that? (LOL I'm still asking questions here as though anyone is still reading this post, wtf is wrong with me?)
Also don't think your reading accuracy in one game means shit. My reading accuracy in 1543 was prettttttttttty fucking shit (though that game was somewhat of an anomaly because my reads in other games lately have been pretty accurate for the most part, but *shrug* shit happens and i'm not above having really, really off games). Does that mean you're going to discount my reads this game?
:/ I'd call this bullshit, but when you call me town and scum in every game, I can't realllly argue against it.
In post 1682, MastinSSK wrote:Instead of seeing a town-AP, I'm seeing an AP-pretending-to-be-town. The actions he do vaguely look town. The words he says vaguely sound town. But how they're done, how they're said, simply...doesn't.
IAWTP x a million. AP's post have this look-kinda-maybe-townish-on-the-surface feel to them but I think that comes from being a decent player as either alignment more than anything. What I'm not seeing is town (oh God I'm going to hate myself for using this word) trajectories in the way he's approaching reads and talking to people here. For example, he seems to have you as a strong town read (or strongish? I don't know, really) on you but his posts towards you don't come from that mindset and he seems to be criticising you and wavering on you more than someone would if they were as town as he suggests his read on you is. Other reads feel kinda similar as well. I also think his approach to certain things is a little weird (the bork QT thing sticks out as a major example... as does him calling himself obvtown for his entrance)
In post 1685, MastinSSK wrote:Basically, their stances this game have been fairly off, as has their reasoning and their interactions, and how people interact with them.
Also agree with this assessment of DespBro. It's the same thing I think atm. Desp is pushing this weird angle of us being scum with AP and doing scum theatre bullshit, but I don't believe he believes that. And if he did, he'd be far more vocal about it, because he knows I could probably get away with it if I were scum. And BRO's reads just haven't made sense to me at all.
In post 1690, CarbonFiber wrote:In particular, I liked how he went from having mild concerns in Post 383 towards a full-out case and vote in Post 1165
What did you like about this? Because I'd say if it was eating at him since 383, he should have done something about it far earlier than he did. Why wait 800 posts for something that is essentially just rehashing what he thought 800 posts earlier except this time with (apparently) a stronger scum read (which he drops almost immediately in favour of going back to attacking mastin)
In post 1690, CarbonFiber wrote:Even more than the content, the ostentatious tone with which he cast the vote felt incredibly bold and not at all "safe" the way Mastin is portraying Fox's posting to be
I read it as playful, not bold. It's more a null thing than anything, but I'm interested in specifically why you think this is more likely town than scum.
In post 1690, CarbonFiber wrote:I didn't feel like voting Muffin's slot who is one of the most difficult lynches on the site to be either safe or opportunistic (and no, being hated doesn't make him a significantly easier lynch).
You're fucking kidding me, right? Not only did I have to wade through pages of bullshit in Xenosaga of people saying the exact same thing about mollie pushing me (she was scum there, no surprise) but really? I am probably the *safest* vote for any scum player specifically BECAUSE of how hard it is to actually lynch me (and yes, I also explained this in Xenosaga). It not only gives them someone to attack over multiple day phases, because it's pretty difficult to lynch me when I'm actually town, but it's also rather easy to play on because paranoia about me isn't exactly uncommon.
Scum-mollie pushed me because (a) I was attacking her and was thus a threat, but more importantly (b) because it gave her something to do so she could look like she was being busy. Why would the same thing happening here be a town tell for someone?
As for the meta examples you provide, fucking lol. You're asserting that it feels the same as his town games, and it doesn't feel the same as his scum games, but you're not talking about why you think this. I personally don't believe he actually believed his reasons for thinking I'm scum here (SEE: HIM BACKTRACKING ON IT AND TRYING TO APPEAL TO AFTER UNVOTING SHORTLY AFTER VOTING ME). Which is what you describe as his scum meta. Go figure.
I don't give two shits if you're gonna call it "natural" sounding or something like that. You're seeing what you want to see rather than what's there, and since you haven't done a good job of explaining why it's natural, I'm going to ignore this until you do.
In post 1700, Just Sheep Us wrote:Yeah, there's often 1, maybe 2 scum in the lurker group, but being able to tell scum-lurk from town-lurk is a skill that exists
(a) How the fuck is this relevant to anything? You weren't saying "it's possible they're scum lurkers or town lurkers", you were directly saying my reads are shit because they're town.
(b) If you can tell the difference between scum lurk and town lurk, then explain why they're town lurking rather than scum lurking?
Also there are times when the vast majority of scum is in the lurkers. Sooooooooooo saying "how often does it happen?" means nothing. It's dependent on who's actually scum, and who's actually scum is dependent on RNG, soooooo what's your fucking point?
In post 1701, Just Sheep Us wrote:So are you going to disagree that saying that an entrance "100% cannot be town" is bad logic when that entrance has been used by the same player as town?
First of all, you're blatantly misrepresenting what I actually said. I not only did not say that his entrance 100% couldn't be a town entrance, but I was arguing that the way he did it and the way he talked about it weren't town - not that he hadn't done it as town in the past.
And you've yet to argue against my actual point here, so I'm just going to assume you're scum trying to look like you have an actual point here.
Mastin ain't happening either
In post 1707, AngryPidgeon wrote:Sorry mastin, you can't have your scumread on me and vouch for my read on you at the same time. That is really really scummy.
@mastin, this is an example of what I mean about weird interactions given his supposed read on you. If he's town reading you, a post like this shouldn't exist (unless he's not as good at reading you as he claims he is). If he's scum reading you, then why isn't he all over lynching you. And if he's null or unsure on you, then wow? Dunno why he put you in the probably town list in the first place if that's the case.
Plus I don't believe he really thinks this makes sense. I would, for example, have to read mastin as town regardless of my alignment if mastin is town, because as town I would see it and as scum I would have to pretend I see it. So yeah, my read could be trusted unless someone thinks we're scum together, regardless of what my actual alignment is.
In post 1710, AngryPidgeon wrote:Everything she's posted -could- be from town mastin and I'm a little disappointed in the complete lack of justifications, its like mastin coasting on being mastin at that point.
How much of mastin's posts are you actually reading?
In post 1715, Titan wrote:He feels orchestrated and his reads feel fabricated; it doesn't feel like he's processing this game in an organic way without knowing people's alignments
Elaborate
'coz I get the exact opposite feeling about mastin's posts and I want to know which of mastin's reads you feel this way about
What does this mean? And/or do you think notscience is voting you for policy reasons?
It doesn't. I was clearly joking. I don't see how you didn't get I was clearly joking given every other post of mine at the time. I don't understand why you felt the need to comment on this. I don't see how you could have possibly thought it was a serious complaint, given the obvious inherent hypocrisy. Holy. Fucking. Shit.
In post 1739, Kagura wrote:Additionally, RBD, if you gladiate JSU tomorrow I will vote you and I will make you die.
You should see how many fucks I give. Especially since I'm going to kill you N1 so LOL DON'T GIVE ANY FUCKS AT ALL.
Is this now your PoE list that isn't going to change despite there being
at most
3 scum in that list? That is, of course, assuming I am right about all of AP, GIF, PV being scum.
He's not a particularly *strong* town read for me, but he has been a town read of sorts for a while now. Do you think he's scum or...? What was the point of this?
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