Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I guess it does look suspicious, but at the time I was still thinking about the initial joke votes and didn't pay attention to the latest post.YvonneSeer wrote:
How could anyone miss this post?darkdude wrote:Yeah I guess you're right guys. This new lead seems much more promising to look into.
Yeah I read the whole damned paragraph. Seems like scum.
I don't think I'll vote just yet though. Also it could be just inexperience in general instead of scumming... a townie could freak out in a similar way.
This is basically darkdude throwing in a little something to show that he has suspicions for windkirby and then covering his tracks by not voting and saying windkirby could be a townie. Maybe he already knows windkirby is a townie. Supporting a wagon from the sidelines but not committing yourself to it is a really scummy thing to do.
vote darkdude
I admit that I do not read every single sentence written here...it's just too much. My time is limited.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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As said by many others, there was not enough evidence for a serious vote. Voting is not a prerequisite for suspicion.You still didn't address the issue yet though. What I'm saying is you supported the wagon on windkirby but you stay away from it yourself by not voting and saying something like "he might be a townie".-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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First of all your accusation does not hold. I did not ever point a finger at anyone in particular. Rather, I first suspected a statement excusing a joke vote that to me seemed like a bandwagon attempt. Even if there were enough evidence to suggest a bandwagon, we would still need to figure out who to take out first (bandwagon is a GROUP action). We did not even get to that phase, instead we were caught in debating on the validity of my claim. Then the really defensive post came up, so I diverted by efforts elsewhere.You didn't have enough evidence, yet you were convinced he seemed like scum from reading that one particular post from windkirby. You thought he's scum but you didn't vote for him, instead choosing to keep your vote on the player who is attacking windkirby of being scum. That is suspicious to me.
I don't recall saying "THIS GUY IS SCUM". I was giving reasons to why the joke votes seemed suspicious.
Now please state why we shouldn't lynch YOU for making baseless accusations trying to get ME lynched.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Yeah I am aware I'm turning your accusation around. Because for some reason you really want to get my lynched.
"My efforts" means my suspicions and deductions based on the events here. Obviously I have not found anything close to a smoking gun yet otherwise I would have been less ambiguous. I don't see why you can't accept the fact that suggesting a scummy action is valid even if it is not very specific; how the hell else are you going to start a game?
My points of defense are:
1. no specific target of suspicion from me until last post, contrary to what you claim
2. was merely asking around to see if others shared my opinion on joke votes
Well now you got me convinced that you are scum. So I'llunvoteandvote: YvonneSeer.
One of 3 possible outcomes:
1. I am scum, which means you are right.
2. I am innocent and the ones accusing me are scum
3. we are all innocent, outplayed by mafia
Of course I know that it is one of the latter 2, but saying that is useless. I will be cleared of suspicion if I do indeed get lynched, so I'm just saying the remaining town should keep that in mind.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I'm new around here, so please explain that acronym.OMGUS-ed Yvonne
She seems like scum simply because from my point of view she is making baseless accusations and directing all the attention of the town on me. I already explained as much as I can; I can't force people to see things my way. If you have a specific list of things you wish for me to elaborate on, please write.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Here yes. Mafia no.@darkdude Is this your 1st game here?
The thing I said baseless was your point about me urging others to vote for windkirby but not voting myself. That is untrue. The rest is subjective.Firstly, you need to understand that just because you don't agree with my argument, doesn't mean it's baseless.
I've seem much more genuine freak outs during my short time here....being all overdefensive after only having one vote on you.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Your question was why I think Yvonne's accusation is baseless correct?That doesn't answer my question.
If you look back....
Someone said something about joke votes
I said it could be a cover up tactic for scum to bandwagon
Someone said I was reading into it too much
I posted something, then noticed something else came up in the last few posts
So I wrote again and said we should now focus on the newest suspicious looking post instead.
That's all.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Perhaps defending myself further would only add to the suspicion but precisely my point:
From my perspective Yvonne successfully made me a magnet for all suspicions and made all else seem less important. And all I did was suggest the possibility of a cover up.isnt this doing the same thing darkdude was originally deemed suspicious for......throwing suspicion on a wagon but not voting?
From an objective point of view though, I realize that I'm going to get lynched sooner or later in a couple of days. Even if I survive this day (and the following night) I would only draw more suspicion and eventually get lynched anyways. I only hope that if it comes to that the remaining towns should remember the other suspicious persons here.....-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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You say I've been diverting all the town's attention to you. That's not even what's happening since mozsuggs here is managing to grab the spotlight all by himself.
Um excuse me I believe that he became a major suspect AFTER he posted a self claimed "random bandwagon vote". Which was in turn after my last post.
As for the other comment on how my posts seem calculated, all I can say is
I never saw it that way.
Do you want us to write on impulse or something?-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Well in all honesty I did not read all of the posts either, because towards the end of day 1 mozsugs posted way too much for me to read . I don't think you can blame VoD for that.
Yvonne is doc.....Damn I'm lost. No one but myself seem the most suspicious at the moment The scum did a good job on framing me....-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Well really, that's why I say you guys should have taken votes more seriously.Guys I didn't realize that that was the hammer
Now that my mortal enemy of the game is dead, the logical conclusion would be that I had killed her. Yvonne really didn't suspect anyone else but me as far as I remember.What do you mean by this, YvonneSeer was the one to first draw suspicion to you and stay with pressure on you and the only others to really have a go at you were zediccus and viking.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Agreed. Yet I also think that the last votes on someone has the most value....obviously no one would fear their death due to a single vote.I agree that I don't like how windkirby says Mozsuggs had a confessional collapse, and how quantum called him a suicide. I think suicide is only used when you vote yourself -- which mozsuggs never did.
Does anyone have an estimate on how many scum there are? I don't know if there's a standard around here or something....-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I guess there would be 4 anti town in this game then, since we have power roles like Doctor and probably a Cop.3 to 4 scum would be standard in a mini, but on rare occasions there are only 2 scum. We only had one kill last night but that doesn't necessarily mean only one anti-town entity. It could be one group of 2, one group of 3, one group of 4, two groups of 2, a group of 2 and an SK or a group of 3 and an SK. Did i miss any possibilities?
In that case we have to lynch a scum today right? If we miss and kill another townie Day 3 might be scum majority. Or we can wait today out to see who the mafia kills tonight if we really can't decide.
That said I agree with Pink Puppy. I want VoD to claim.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I think VoD should claim to at least give us something to work on. Right now I feel as if we've been going over the same thing again for weeks. VoD seems most suspicious right now, so I think it's a good idea for me to ask for a claim. The resulting reactions could be what we need.
Perhaps for some reason I am not reading well enough, but all I see is defense after defense. Everything in mafia is defendable, and WIFOM is so common that it makes little sense not to act on something just because it could go on both ways. In this situation I believe we have to think simple and avoid over analyzing things. Because the way I see it is that the mafia is currently confusing the town by turning down one lynch proposal after another. I guess that's what happens when you lose 3 town in a row. Possibly one third of the players here could be scum. This would explain the lack of decisions.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I don't think VoD has a good defense. He's basically saying that he made a mistake by accident and we should ignore it. To me the best way to deal with this is to push for more information.And what, are we supposed to ignore what people say in their own defense? Lesse here, you were under suspicion at one point, right? Maybe we should bring it back up and disregard completely anything you or anyone else said defending you.
And you guys seem to be over concerned about revealing a power role. Isn't there double to triple the probability that we could be pressuring a scum to a cop? The reluctance is already seeming suspicious in my eyes.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Perhaps to you, but what I meant was that just because VoD said he "put the best possible defense" doesn't mean it makes him less suspicious.That's not what you said. You said, "anything in mafia is defendable", etc. To me, that means the same as "defenses should be ignored", and that's ridiculous.
Well now if I change my mind and follow your advice I'll be more scummy right?And I want people to think for themselves, even if it disagrees with me.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I really could not find anyone more suspicious than he was. Also I don't think one could easily conclude whether something like more information based on claim could help or not. In sincerely believe that the chances are for the better if we get more information, but if you deduce the opposite that is still fine. However you can't discredit my reasoning because this isn't something like math; the answer is arbitrary. The unknown is unaccountable and to me it seems the most promising.He's not saying we should ignore it, he's just saying we should keep other things in mind, which we should. There's really no additional defense he could give and we should keep it in mind in case he does anything else. He concedes that.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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But from my perspective, since I know that I am pro town, I can 100% eliminate this possibility. Of course there is no conclusive proof which I can present to you, especially since you have made a case on me already which I cannot defend whether I am actually pro town or not; if I stay my opinion I'll get suspicion, if I change my opinion I'll get suspected for conforming in order to seem less suspicious.You know who's more suspicious than he was? You. This is something like math. There are probabilities involved, and you have to consider them when making a decision.
About the math part:
Yes this does deal with probability and calculations. But remember the unknown factor I was talking about? How do you solve a system with two different variables given only one equation?
Yes I concur that from an objective point of view I do seem the most suspicious out of all players right now. But you cannot use that as a case against me; for as mentioned before I alone know that I am protown, therefore ignoring my own suspicious actions is fully justified. Of course I try not to be suspicious anyways so that the town would not need to unnecessarily lose a member.
Lynch me if you will then. If we are lucky there are less than 4 scum so you can survive another day.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Townies don't need to worry about being seen as scum. Try to find who scum is and you will help town win. Worry overmuch about suspicion on you and you will just serve to clog up the works. I don't know whether you're scum or not; I'm getting some scum vibes, but the fact that people are suspicious of you DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL GET LYNCHED! So just put your head on your shoulders and PLAY THE GAME.
Well yes I know, but given the situation I think the priority right now is that I should avoid getting lynched, because if town loses 2 members by tomorrow it could be disastrous if there were 4 scum. Now the problem is that I can't defend myself! I know all about game logic; I've played it long enough online and offline, but my current situation is the result of some accumulation of inexperience in terms of the community culture here in general.
Yeah, if you're looking for a defense then there's the other one. I'm just caught in a not so newb friendly situation. The conformity argument really disables any other defenses I may have had.
It must be the thought of self defense overwhelming my other thoughts, because I fail to see other suspicious people. So sorry can't help town there, until my own mess is cleared. One detail I do see though - Akona's words sound less likely to come from scum than the others.
By the way I just remembered to elaborate on this:
No I'm saying that you can't use the fact that I overlooked my own suspicion as a case. Obviously you can suspect me due to scummy play, but Quantum Fruit stated that I was suspicious due to the fact that I pressured VoD while ignoring that I was also a good suspect (at least that's what I made of her statement). So simplified:"I'm the most suspicious player, but you can't use that as a case against me because I'm town"
Case = I point fingers at people while ignoring possible signs of scum from myself
Counter = I did not need to concentrate on details against me if I were pro town-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Like I said before I thought Yvonne was scum because of the hellbent way she wanted me lynched, but now that she is dead and proven to be doctor I'm really lost.Well you found people suspicious on day one and me on day two but now you say you fail to see suspicious people...look carefuly over day one and day two I'm sure you can find something, and to say sorry can't help town is very bad. I can uderstand this untill your own mess has cleared but try and balance this.
Is it now a crime to admit that you don't have a clue about who the scum are? I'm not saying that I'm not trying though. Just that I don't have much success. This is partially due to the fact that everyone's focusing on me now, so there's not much to work on, as said I won't try to investigate myself. If I were not the lone suspect perhaps things would be better....
This is because he's trying to help me play good as town, which is obviously a very pro town thing to do. But this is not subject to as much WIFOM as other obvious pro town actions as I'm in a huge spiral down to the lynching stage already, so a regular scum could have just left me to die without seeming suspicious in any way.And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?-
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Originally I was pushing VoD because of my suspicions of his actions. Then I was told to "put my vote where my mouth was", so I did that, but then got criticized for conceding so easily. Then multiple people put up good reasons as to why I shouldn't have asked VoD to claim, and that doing so makes me scummy. If I stand my point I will appear scummy, and if I change my mind I'll still be scummy.What's the conformity argument?-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I remembered once when she also said that she'll contribute some more later but never did.Talitha has been low-volume so far, but when she does say things, they make sense to me.
I think that's just a tad suspicious. Could easily be lack of time though.
Also, since you guys convinced me not to pressure VoD any more for now I'llUnvote-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Yeah this happened to me and Yvonne. When you're pro town and someone's constantly calling you scum you tend to think that way....The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.-
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As if I could find something wrong when everyone is saying one and the same thing....that is why I said it would have been okay to suspect me as prime suspect if you had a secondary one to see what I can do too.Personally that is usually more convincing to me than a defense for a certain action. If someone under fire can make good arguments (for their innocence) BUT more importantly why someone else is scum, I'm more inclined to believe that they might be innocent (I know ppl can buss, but that's not the first thing I look for or worry about. I think bussing is less common than some ppl think).
Well regardless I think that phase is over. I will
vote: zeddicus
to see some activity from him...-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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You know after that long discussion I don't really care that much anymore...I would just repeat myself if I wrote anything.@darkdude: But but but...you're bandwagoning again! VoD just voted zeddicus before you...Please do your own thinking. It's not exactly a scum-tell that you don't (a tiny bit of a newbie scum tell because obviously if you're agreeing with someone else, you won't look so suspicious since they believe what you believe, etc.), but it's frustrating.
I simply believe we should pressure lurkers and inactives a bit.
By your logic (and those of a few others) I should have the following vote restrictions?
1. Cannot vote for a player when someone else already has voted for them
2. Cannot FOS without voting
3. If the above two rules are pointed out, I cannot change my mind
4. Breaking any of the above is deemed scummy
5. The only "safe" vote is when against a player who is found to be most likely scum by the town already
Isn't that a bit much?
I have the feeling you're doing the same thing I was accused of...pointing fingers around at people with minimal evidence. Personally I don't think it is that scummy, but since you people say so....
Get my point?-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Yeah I guess I am whining. I'm kind of pissed that Quantum Fruit made a pointless statement regarding my vote. Because she could have complained about any of the "rules" I listed above.Gosh, you remind me of people who just enjoy whining.
That quote you took out was out of context. I meant that back then when lots of people had votes on me some players said stuff along the lines of "he's gonna crack under pressure!!! scum!!". This would be inconsistent if someone else was pressured and failed to properly defend/freaked out, yet no one sees it as suspicious.The player we were talking about pressuring or not pressuring was obviously VoD. You seem overly worried about being pressured... do you have an explanation for why that is, DD?
That said, I did not like the pressure when people voted for me for the aforementioned reasons. Losing another member could have been really bad for town, so I put defending myself into priority. Perhaps it was a mistake as some pointed out, but that was what I did.
Wait...what is the explanation for this? Triple post and lots of rephrasing? It was obvious that you were asking me a question, so I do not see the need for this. Seems really weird behavior to me. Perhaps I will be considered doing a OMGUS for this, but I think following your absence and consequent peculiar timing of posts (most of the time immediately after someone points out inactivity) deserves my questioning.VoD & Darkdude,
Please also answer above question re: Zeddicus, seeing as you are both voting for him.-
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I concur, but my previous statement was a defense and not a suggestion that we should not look hard.@darkdude: What pointless statement did I make? Also, the only way we can figure anything out is by looking way too much into everything (including votes).
Why do you think I'm being hard? You yourself just pointed out the need to look into everything. I wasn't even suspicious of her. Just pointed out the weird behaviour of Talitha - triple posting on one subject, repeating herself when there is no need.Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha?
Now we have two weird cases:
Talitha's repetitive posts
Quantum Fruit's paradox-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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Yay, finally I feel as if I'm onto something!
You asked me to clarify on something, which is perfectly fine, then made a second post to address VoD, AND THEN used a third post to say "ya that's what I wrote so please answer".talitha wrote:Um, where did I repeat myself? Apart from directing the same question to 3 different players who were all voting or threatening to vote for someone who is not here.... I don't get it. Back up your assertions please, Darkdude.
I don't really think this is scummy, but it was just plain weird. And with QF's reaction things are getting weirder...
I named your case the paradox, but by definition it was more of a simple contradiction.QF wrote:@darkdude: What is a paradox? (Don't be cheeky and define paradox.) The only thing I am defending Talitha in is that she has a busy life and you and VoD were being harsh.
QF wrote:the only way we can figure anything out is by looking way too much into everything (including votes).
You say it is good to look into everything, then go on immediately to contradict yourself saying we shouldn't suspect (I myself was not really suspecting at the moment) because it is mean. First of all, I see ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of either me or VoD being mean to Talitha. I based my questioning on an obvious abnormality, and wasn't even suspicious of scummy actions. Plus I think I was quite polite. I've seen many questions on less evidence, and I am 100% sure you have too. So this really makes no sense and seems like scum logic. VoD (read his later posts) is right; I feel you're for some reason really protective of her.QF wrote:Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha?
Yeah, I just noticed the obvious suspicion which QF caught for herself when I pressed the submit button. You guys all know that moment of enlightenment when you press the magic button right?Just noticed that Darkdude's "reread of recent posts", including the time taken to post the results took 3 minutes.
That's part of the reason editing is not allowed...scum usually find their own mistakes after they post.
And based on that I'm scum...?
As I said I'm still new, but wouldn't THIS be considered OMGUS???
Same here.VoD wrote:If you can find me directly accuse Talitha of being scum please quote it for me-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I still don't see just HOW THE HELL anyone was mean. Did I say "CLAIM NOW SCUMZORZ!! DIE SCUMZORZ"?
Quote me where I'm being mean to her.
Your argument makes no sense.
I want to quote VoD
So whats next a group hug before the lynching.
Sincerely sorry, but I addressed the parts I thought were relevant. If you would like me to elaborate please post the specific parts. I'll try to read better.Darkdude, I would like you to read my posts in their entirety and not just what is convenient. I already posted where you attempt to build a case against Talitha. (Not that you shouldn't.)
Nice metaphor. I'm hurt.his most recent post seems to be reaching on the level of detatching one's arm. Since when should a minor contradiction, if that was even what it was, instigate such a confident suspicion of these two characters? Seems very forced.
I don't know about you but it seems to me this MEAN argument makes no sense at all. First of all no one was mean, and second even if we were not very considerate it would be a normal part of the game. No reason for dismissing evidence.
Furthermore, it is within my experience that most scum would try to appear "nice" in trivial issues like this one. This is definitely not the protown-protown advice/help such as the one given by Akonas.-
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Not dead sure of course, but he has more evidence suggesting he is town than other players (of course, all from my perspective). If I were to put people on a scale of suspicion, QF would be at one end and Akonas would be on the other. That's what I'm saying.You are soooome sure Akonas is town. Based on that one piece of advice he gave you, you're basically deciding he's town and giving him a free pass?
When did I say "you should drop your life and kids and play mafia"? I only initially suspected something due to her absence, but now that is not even the issue any more. The latest suspicion I had from her was based on that weird posting behaviour. Which in turn makes you suspicious for accusing me of something which no one has done.Okay, I'm going to address this finitely and I don't want to come back to this any more. You guys were not being very understanding of Talitha's personal life and that bothered me. That's what was mean.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: February 17, 2008
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darkdude Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: February 17, 2008
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darkdude Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: February 17, 2008
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darkdude Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: February 17, 2008
Perhaps this would be the first one.VoD: A weak case? Is that compared to all the other water-tight cases that have been made against players in this game so far?
I find your logic generally inconsistent. That's all I can say for sure right now, in addition to my suspicions I mentioned earlier.
When is the inactive zeddicus going to get replaced? I hope that guy has more info!-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1340
- Joined: February 17, 2008
Wasn't that directed at me?Cephrir. Yvonne nailed you good in [135], hm?
It's good that we finally have a replacement!
I don't think you need to be super aggressive and do really long posts. Picking up inconsistencies and questioning people is good enough, especially if that is one's regular play style. Or perhaps he just didn't find anything worthy to comment on.It's not that he was reactive, but he was not proactive-- you can be reactive and proactive, which is what you need to be in order to accomplish anything in this game. And if you don't think it's enough of a scumtell for you to care, good for you. I disagree. If you never really add anything to the game... it's just so easy for scum to slip under everyone's radar like that, and I feel like that's exactly what he did.
Or if he was a pro-town power role this may have been done on purpose.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 1340
- Joined: February 17, 2008
It just doesn’t seem to add up with the newbie you’re claiming. Like, consider what you say when QF questioned you:
Perhaps you (and other players brooding over this) misunderstand.
I am no newb in the game of mafia (though some may claim otherwise due to my mistakes so far). I am new only to this forum. The unspoken rules and practices differ even between online mafia sites, I'm sure you know.
Hey that's an interesting way of looking at it. Seems like we all missed that aspect the first time. I think we should indeed investigate more on that issue.They’re not mutually exclusive rationales. I mean, lying + having extra information fits mafia to a tee. For that matter, lying + having extra information + lynching a townsperson.
And a side note: I'm sorry I don't have enough time for a more detailed post right now. Very busy these days. I'll try to skim over important stuff for now.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 1340
- Joined: February 17, 2008
Think about this. My best course of action was to clear my name as soon as possible. If I did not say anything, then sooner or later someone would pick up the connection between me and Yvonne's arguing and assume that I killed her. Making it WIFOM at least put that out of the way for the time being, so I could help find scum better.When D2 began, instead of trying to find mafia, you were instead seeing (a) if the nightkill could be traced to you and (b) what you could do to deflect it. Are you saying that, in the medium you usually play in, that is something that a protown player would do? If so, how on earth do you ever find mafia?
Townies want to live too!
Anyways, looking at the big picture, I notice a strange phenomenon.
As soon as zeddicus' replacement came in, everyone started defending against Tyger's questioning instead of searching for scum themselves. Tyger has the right to question to catch up on the game, but I don't know why everyone else is idling around. At least that's what seems to me.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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I don't think it's a bad thing, and already said that he has the right to ask about earlier parts of the game. But we seem to be delaying scum hunting. I just thought I should speak that one out.@darkdude: As a replacement, I think EmpTyger has a right to ask for clarification on various matters. You know, because had he been in the game previously, he might have asked then. I don't see how this process detracts from scum-hunting, seeing as how it would help us pick up on things we might have overlooked. Explain your logic.-
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darkdude Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 1340
- Joined: February 17, 2008