Wasn't it you talking about his hoopla read?In post 1895, BlackVoid wrote:By the way, I have not looked at any of GreyICE's reads and I don't know where you got the impression that I did.
Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Just to be clear it's actually completely garbage and you couldn't ignore the elephant in the room anymore if you tried. Apparently because "I don't try to read wagons in progress. Or at all." is a real thing.
Ordinarily I'd at least get a not-partner tell here from the switch to vanity instead of cw-ing, but she voted me just earlier when I was starting to look promising, in 180 to her earlier "just looks really town" read (apparently solely because I suggested lynching maria).-
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It's ironic you judge wagons as you do given when YOU vote it's generally bare, in fact done after talking about a bunch of entirely unrelated things, and I'd think by your own standards they'd all be "not really good".-
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I think 1806 was around that time the jaack wagon stalled anyways and wasn't going to go anywhere
If I think about it, her alternatives to sotty there would have been
-stay on dead wagon
-me wagon which was starting up, which wouldn't work with her townread
-creature wagon that was starting up
-maybe try to start a new wagon from scratch-
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Raskolnikov Jack of All Trades
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Actually, you haven't really explained it.
And I've been giving you a lot of space because I'm kind of used to this, and it's also a kind of unfair to judge you super harshly every game just because you fooled me once.-
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Why do you find it trash? What parts?In post 1977, MariaR wrote:I don't get people's tr on BV and I never will I don't even mainly sr him for having reads that are opposite to mine it's the reasoning and intent behind said reads and I find his trash
You said this about the sotty push too, did that not make you re-evaluate at all?-
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Our last game, I gave you a lot of trouble the entire game over that paranoia and you ended up town anyways, and I wondered if I would give you a hard time every game just because I personally messed up once. The problem is when you're actually town you're huge lynchbait, so it's kind of a dilemma. So I try to hold off and give you some breathing room until there's something substantial to talk about.-
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Now I think about it, IAI kill suggests against maria-gm, as both are likely too lazy to masonhunt and IAI reads-only weren't threatening to that team.
However cloud obviously noticed the slip as he pointed it out, and hoopla is a smart cookie anyways.-
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ewwww
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Who has towncred?In post 2036, CloudKicker wrote:tf that flip, this is beyond an obvious bus. The sole reason why would mafia get lynched as uncced pr claim is because they got bussed for towncred
Who is scum pushing pushing you right now?In post 2036, CloudKicker wrote:so is maria since we both defended scum, so i expected fully to be pushed by scum today like its happening rn
Except, I didn't say there has to be one scum in the pair, and have been openly talking about other teams so I don't see how you miss this. In fact, I prefer hoopla ATM as she could still be scum with GM, whereas you'd likely only be with her anyways (in which case it doesn't matter).In post 2036, CloudKicker wrote:Bad read, this is the obvious mafia play where they pick the 2 towns who defend mafia, say they cant be a team so they lynch one, then try to make town believe that because of that flip, then the other should be mafia. The sotty lynch is the most obvious bus i have seen in a while, the wagon had resistance but from maria and shes most likely town from meta + d1 votes and so on and im town too. Mafia pushing on the townies who didnt want to lynch pr is obvious here.
Given you pointed it out as a pt slip yourself, I'm not sure how you could genuinely fail to realize the significance in this context.In post 2036, CloudKicker wrote:This is mafia self-referencing the reason why they killed IAI, i doubt anyone had any idea why IAI got killed nor did anyone made any comment on that, this is rask scum game btw.
Even though we've played before, to assert I'm going to be 100% accurate reading you every game is ridiculous.In post 2036, CloudKicker wrote:Rask is an extremely easy read, like i said many times and she can read me pretty darn well too,
And you make it out as though I'm hard pushing you this entire game whereas it's generally been PoE, a secondary compared to others who I've actually hard pushed, and looking at you as a potential partner during association research, so this characterization doesn't make sense either.In post 2036, CloudKicker wrote:yet she voted me and never doubted herself when im town, which is another scumtell imo.-
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I forgot about sotty's early hoop stuff. 119 311 and does look buddyish, and that was super early and way before sotty was going down or anything either, though she never stopped. Though I think it was sotty who said that associations were literally her specialty/biggest strength when scum so eeeeeh.In post 2043, BlackVoid wrote:Hoopla- I thought Sotty7 was buddying her rather hard. When Hoopla told her at the beginning that she was suspicious, Sotty7 responds with "I'm sad" and then there was her talk about tag-teaming with Hoopla if they were indeed both town. She puts Hoopla down to null/scum for a little while but once Hoopla townreads her again, all suspicion is forgotten. There's a lot of agreement with Hoopla and piggybacking off of her. Finally on D2, there's a ton of whiteknighting Hoopla when it looked like the latter was going to be lynched. Sotty7 was jumping through Hoops* to keep her appeased.
*No pun intended.-
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It's good from sotty's side, but thing is still that GM did CW her and especially the vote on me was out of nowhere for her reads when I became a wagon prospect. It also feels like sotty treated everyone against her with some appeasement (barring me/"scumreads"), and if I take out both hoopla and gm on that basis I only really have maria/cloud which doesn't make much sense either.In post 2042, BlackVoid wrote:Okay, so I looked over Sotty7's ISO to see how she interacted with people. Arona and Jaack are obviously town so I'm going to focus on the other six people for now.
goodmorning- Saying she wants to join the Sotty7 wagon over BBT's seemed unnecessary because she had been laying down the groundwork to push BBT anyways. Then there's the way Sotty7 reacted to her scumread by trying to placate her and make her see reason that I don't see as scumbuddy interaction. GM pushing in 588, Sotty7's response in 590, GM's 694, Sotty7's 795, GM's 811, Sotty7's 827 and GM's 884 are the back-and-forths I'm referring to. GM's basically going "you are scum but I'm not going get into why" and the gist of Sotty7's response is "please do tell me."
inb4 GM goes "but I totally would have pushed Sotty7 D1 if I was her partner and your reasons are rubbish." I'm just going to point out that I'm not going to call GM town because she seems allergic to that - let's just call her a cat in wolf's clothing.
@Rask, if you are still scumreading GM, give those a quick look and let me know what you think because this is one of my stronger reads.-
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If we do massclaim I don't think it should be popcorn (someone like maria has wacko reads but could still be town), but rather decided by the common townreads making a list.
Or would just get mason to dictate it, if they're up for it.-
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I'd agree that the hard defending would have had to be planned. In which case it'd probably have been with the NK choice, given the particular logic used that it was too obvious a kill implicating sotty to actually be true, and it would've been pretty clear when making that how it would look.
In that same scenario though the sotty lynch going through isn't expected (jaack got that done, and I think jaack-maria interactions are too genuine) for what that's worth.-
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It's that he's the "obvious lynch candidate" to you, but it's not clear if that's a function of him being the most likely lynch or if you independently think it's the best choice. You've mentioned him the least compared to even your theories and paranoia, so I want to know more about how you came to him as your most obvious choice.-
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This is the creature I know, and barring GM he's been pretty much the same as me as far as game approach.In post 2095, Hoopla wrote:Raskol, I've seen you weighing up the validity of a variety of different scumteams today, but you've not mentioned Creature at all, which I don't get. What did he do that was town enough to exclude him from your PoE?
And "Waffling with maria", despite how it sounds, makes a lot of sense from anyone whose played with maria more than once.-
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If he was scum I think he'd be more concerned about the flak people are giving him.In post 2095, Hoopla wrote:Raskol, I've seen you weighing up the validity of a variety of different scumteams today, but you've not mentioned Creature at all, which I don't get. What did he do that was town enough to exclude him from your PoE?
From what I've looked into too he has less presence as scum and doesn't seem as interested in the game.-
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If you're reaching the same conclusions as me, but completely independently and often without even knowing, you're thinking along the same lines.
His style is low information by default, but what is there I haven't seen anything malicious in.-
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No, it's a micro thing. Approach and conclusions.In post 2118, Hoopla wrote:
A lot of the players are sharing pretty similar views as you, me included, subbing in me as town and Creature as possible scum. Where are my town points for being one away like Creature is?In post 2117, Raskolnikov wrote:If you're reaching the same conclusions as me, but completely independently and often without even knowing, you're thinking along the same lines.
His style is low information by default, but what is there I haven't seen anything malicious in.
Also, if this tell is so potent to the point of completely clearing Creature, the antithesis of this is someone with polar opposite views of yours must be exceptionally scum, so why isn't Maria your top suspect?
I was I think the only person annoyed at the possibility of the d1 wagons being TvT. Because victor was town yet greyice started towntelling a bit.
Creature replaced in and started along the lines you'd expect, thought bbt/GI looked townish so looked at victor. But similar to me he came away town there too and ended up meh about it and looking at other people.
The list progression is pretty classic creature and 1604 is him in a nutshell from what I've experienced. You have to consider too why he'd do that maria questioning rather than what most people have been doing, it doesn't really read like buddying to me, and it's pretty much what I did my last game with her. And the hard defending thing he I thought about and just see him bring it up independently.
His reaction to specific things too. I start doubting someone, I read they then have a very good post, and then there's creature with "oh nice, guess they're town after all" and it's uncanny.
In general too he's more interested in clearing people than anything else which is a pro-town approach by nature. Though he was a little quick on the judgement today.-
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BV's the other mirroring, I can tell he's doing real association work only because I do it myself and know the approach, even if he doesn't come away with the same conclusions all the time (and at some points seems to go a bit too far and get lost in the rabbit hole). But you can always see how he can get there, it's not BSing or not forcing what's there to fit a narrative it doesn't at all.-
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