Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 3.01

Raskolnikov (1)

CloudKicker ,

Hoopla (1)

Raskolnikov ,

Creature (2)

MariaR , goodmorning ,

CloudKicker (3)

Jaack , Creature , BlackVoid L-2,

Not Voting (2)

Hoopla , aronagrundy ,

Day three deadline is Thursday December 1, 12 AM PST. (expired on 2016-12-01 00:00:00)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!

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[aronagrundy]

Back!

VOTE: cloud

I think we should massclaim tomorrow. Scum already seem to have some info on roles so giving them more info isn't something I'd want to do. Maybe they have a rolecop+day talk? Anyway, I agree with the wagon on cloud, and I'm more than willing to bring him to L-1. Sotty was defended more by cloud than anyone leading up to her lynch, at least to me. Open to other people's feedback/opinions on everything btw--78 pages was a lot to read and I'm sure I missed some things.

Now would be a good time for cloud to claim, unless he's going to wait for intent.

[MariaR]

I hate you all.

[aronagrundy]

Vc to be posted eventually, but it was a lynch.

Votecount 1.Final

GreyICE (7)

Sotty7 , VictorDeAngelo , I Am Innocent , Hoopla , BlackVoid , Creature , Raskolnikov LYNCH!,

VictorDeAngelo (4)

goodmorning , GreyICE , MariaR , Jaack ,

Sotty7 (1)

TwoFace ,

Not Voting (1)

CloudKicker ,

Day one deadline is Thursday November 3, 8 AM PST. (expired on 2016-11-03 08:00:00)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

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Heres the vote d1, theres at the very very least 1 mafia voting with sotty on that wagon, would be silly to have 6 towns lynch town there and 2 mafia outside. Vic/IAI are clear, leaves hoop/rask/crea/BV. Outside that wagon is maria -> if maria was mafia with sotty she probably wouldve just voted with sotty there since if i remember, sotty was possibly getting lynched d1? So maria is non-team telling for d1 with sotty and shes most likely town just for that and her stance yday -> grey is cleard, thats leaves goodmorning imho outside the wagon that looks townish too, or at least might be the mafia outside the wagon?, twoface cleared and myself who didnt vote, i was away but i showed intent to hammer for a claim, just like i did with sotty.

I mean...it was either my slot or grey, right? Win/win for scum.

[aronagrundy]

eh nvm reread the VCs, but I'm not sure if scum!rask would be so on fence as they were about choosing between two town lynches

[Creature]

Hey Hoopla I couldn't move my vote from Hoopla because it was night.

[Hoopla]

Hey Hoopla I couldn't move my vote from Hoopla because it was night.

Hey Creature, you cheeky lil scumbag, you were online and posting while Sotty's wagon was four votes deep without saying shit about it. No sleeping excuses for you, bucko.

[Hoopla]

I'm still not ready for a lynch yet (or even a claim) when we haven't even decided if we're massclaiming. I know we've all got the taste for blood, but everyone calm your tits and slow it down.

[BlackVoid]

Okay then, let's massclaim tomorrow. I guess we'll just have to do it the hard way today with no help from the setup.

I really do want Cloudkicker's claim though.

Is anyone else bothered by how MariaR simply opposes the lynch of every popular candidate? First it was GreyICE, then it was Sotty7, now it's Cloudkicker. I don't get the feeling she actually has the reads she does and is instead trying to put on a "batshit-crazy-townie" persona hoping that pushing me will get her townread because "what scum would do that?"

[Raskolnikov]

Raskol, I've seen you weighing up the validity of a variety of different scumteams today, but you've not mentioned Creature at all, which I don't get. What did he do that was town enough to exclude him from your PoE?

This is the creature I know, and barring GM he's been pretty much the same as me as far as game approach.

And "Waffling with maria", despite how it sounds, makes a lot of sense from anyone whose played with maria more than once.

[Raskolnikov]

The only thing is, as of very recently he feels a little complacent.

[Hoopla]

This is the creature I know, and barring GM he's been pretty much the same as me as far as game approach.

And "Waffling with maria", despite how it sounds, makes a lot of sense from anyone whose played with maria more than once.

Since you seem to be a Creature expert and are clearing him for, well... I still don't get why after reading this post, how exactly does his scumplay differ from this?

[Raskolnikov]

Raskol, I've seen you weighing up the validity of a variety of different scumteams today, but you've not mentioned Creature at all, which I don't get. What did he do that was town enough to exclude him from your PoE?

If he was scum I think he'd be more concerned about the flak people are giving him.

From what I've looked into too he has less presence as scum and doesn't seem as interested in the game.

[Hoopla]

That seems like pretty flaky reasoning to me, or at least nowhere near strong enough to discount him from teams. If you're going to be looking at teams at this stage, at least do it properly.

[Raskolnikov]

It's the mirroring tell.

[Hoopla]

It's the mirroring tell.

I don't know what that is.

[Raskolnikov]

This is the creature I know, and barring GM he's been pretty much the same as me as far as game approach.

[Raskolnikov]

If you're reaching the same conclusions as me, but completely independently and often without even knowing, you're thinking along the same lines.

His style is low information by default, but what is there I haven't seen anything malicious in.

[Hoopla]

If you're reaching the same conclusions as me, but completely independently and often without even knowing, you're thinking along the same lines.

His style is low information by default, but what is there I haven't seen anything malicious in.

A lot of the players are sharing pretty similar views as you, me included, subbing in me as town and Creature as possible scum. Where are my town points for being one away like Creature is?

Also, if this tell is so potent to the point of completely clearing Creature, the antithesis of this is someone with polar opposite views of yours must be exceptionally scum, so why isn't Maria your top suspect?

[BlackVoid]

I think this game is best solved through POE just because I have strong townreads but not very strong scumreads. I'm not doubting Arona and Jaack. I went over Sotty7's ISO again to look at how she treated GM and Hoopla. I just have a couple of questions before I can set them aside as town and continue POE'ing further.

@GM, why did you vote for Rask when you did? You were reading him as town and Sotty7 as scum. That vote makes no sense to me and the reasoning was that you quoted Rask saying that he would lynch MariaR.

@Hoopla, how good would you generally say you are at orchestrating interactions with your scumbuddies? Looking at your previous games, you've seen and been scum with Sotty7 before. Any firsthand insights on how she plays scum and treats her partners?

Sotty7's interactions look so much like she's buddying a townie who's mildly suspicious of her on and off. There's just a nagging voice at the back of my head wondering if Hoopla and Sotty7 are actually good enough to pull off something like this. But I still think if this was orchestrated, it would go both ways with Sotty7 trying to look good from a Hoopla scumflip, but it's been a very one-way affair which is why I think Hoopla is town.

[Raskolnikov]

If you're reaching the same conclusions as me, but completely independently and often without even knowing, you're thinking along the same lines.

His style is low information by default, but what is there I haven't seen anything malicious in.

A lot of the players are sharing pretty similar views as you, me included, subbing in me as town and Creature as possible scum. Where are my town points for being one away like Creature is?

Also, if this tell is so potent to the point of completely clearing Creature, the antithesis of this is someone with polar opposite views of yours must be exceptionally scum, so why isn't Maria your top suspect?

No, it's a micro thing. Approach and conclusions.
I was I think the only person annoyed at the possibility of the d1 wagons being TvT. Because victor was town yet greyice started towntelling a bit.
Creature replaced in and started along the lines you'd expect, thought bbt/GI looked townish so looked at victor. But similar to me he came away town there too and ended up meh about it and looking at other people.
The list progression is pretty classic creature and 1604 is him in a nutshell from what I've experienced. You have to consider too why he'd do that maria questioning rather than what most people have been doing, it doesn't really read like buddying to me, and it's pretty much what I did my last game with her. And the hard defending thing he I thought about and just see him bring it up independently.
His reaction to specific things too. I start doubting someone, I read they then have a very good post, and then there's creature with "oh nice, guess they're town after all" and it's uncanny.

In general too he's more interested in clearing people than anything else which is a pro-town approach by nature. Though he was a little quick on the judgement today.

[Raskolnikov]

BV's the other mirroring, I can tell he's doing real association work only because I do it myself and know the approach, even if he doesn't come away with the same conclusions all the time (and at some points seems to go a bit too far and get lost in the rabbit hole). But you can always see how he can get there, it's not BSing or not forcing what's there to fit a narrative it doesn't at all.

[Hoopla]

I think this game is best solved through POE just because I have strong townreads but not very strong scumreads. I'm not doubting Arona and Jaack. I went over Sotty7's ISO again to look at how she treated GM and Hoopla. I just have a couple of questions before I can set them aside as town and continue POE'ing further.

Yes, I think PoE is one of the best ways to catch scum, but it irks me to no end when people make relatively arbitrary eliminations like Rask appears to be doing. It just takes one wrong elimination for the whole house of cards to fall down.

@Hoopla, how good would you generally say you are at orchestrating interactions with your scumbuddies? Looking at your previous games, you've seen and been scum with Sotty7 before. Any firsthand insights on how she plays scum and treats her partners?

Sotty7's interactions look so much like she's buddying a townie who's mildly suspicious of her on and off. There's just a nagging voice at the back of my head wondering if Hoopla and Sotty7 are actually good enough to pull off something like this. But I still think if this was orchestrated, it would go both ways with Sotty7 trying to look good from a Hoopla scumflip, but it's been a very one-way affair which is why I think Hoopla is town.

I don't know. I haven't been scum in... literally years as I don't play much these days, so I don't even know how I'd approach it any more. We both used to be considered to have strong scum games (actually I think people still see Sotty as a very strong scum player). My biggest strength was my ability to boss games around as a town leader/key voice in the game and orchestrate things in a direction I wanted the game to go, whereas I think Sotty's strengths were more along the lines of very convincingly simulating her town game as scum, but these are all long ago memories that are hazy, nostalgic and simply not very meaningful beyond the surface. I think it's fair to say we are probably both different players these days.

I did notice similar things to you about Sotty and her placating/buddying up to me at times, which was something I found triggering my suspicion of her, especially on D1. Actually, it's how I used to catch a lot of people back in the day; if someone I knew expressed too little paranoia/curiosity about me and seemed to want to just keep me onside, they were often scum.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: GM
Going back to this atm.

I can't clear hoopla but she's picked up her play bigtime today.

[Raskolnikov]

Cloud should show up too and claim to progress the game.