Mini Normal 1843 - Endgame

[Creature]

I'll see tomorrow.

[Raskolnikov]

Crux of the argument against me: I expected sotty to flip scum.

I DID think sotty would flip scum. That's why I wagoned him the first time, wagoned him the second time, and then went on to wagon him the third time following Jaack. If he claimed VT that was a lynch straight up the second time, but literally the only time I've seen a pr-claim not given respect and some benefit of the doubt is when I mislynched joat d1 and fucked things up. But when jaack did that it was fine, even in the 10% its wrong I wasn't going to at least feel dumb since I wasn't getting MY first choice anyways. Not to mention she was pushing me anyways and had probably the worst reads in the game even if she was town to boot. The thing is you expect me to have given a fuck when I had no reason to. I don't deny any of this.

If you are in MY scumpool, lurkish, AND have super useless reads or are pushing for my own lynch that makes you worthless and I will lynch you without a second thought.

[Raskolnikov]

You have to keep in mind I have no reason whatsoever to doubt my reads thus far. Called d1 probably being tvt; no one wanted to divert. Still super confident on GM flipping red here, flipped sotty yesterday and hey coincidentally there's an association there. Yeah I wavered on jaack and especially cloud despite how I feel now but quickly got it when it wasn't making as much sense.

If you contest my reads you have to contest one of my clears. No one has contested BV or jaack to any convincing degree. Cloud is pretty untouchable barring one of my other clears CCing though he probably dies tonight anyways. Creature is a meta read and I'm physically incapable of making anyone without the same experience share that but I haven't heard anything even half convincing as to why he's scum.

[Raskolnikov]

BV triggers me because the bulk of his read is on theorycrafting and speculation I can't disprove or even engage with and he sets up actions as bad or scum-motivated without putting much thought into the alternative or counterpoint in each specific instance.

[Raskolnikov]

Everyone left...

[Hoopla]

Everyone left...

I'm here-ish, still thinking...

I feel like every time I lock down and solidify my reads and opinions on the game, I immediately get convinced by something else and have to start over.

BV triggers me because the bulk of his read is on theorycrafting and speculation I can't disprove or even engage with and he sets up actions as bad or scum-motivated without putting much thought into the alternative or counterpoint in each specific instance.

The same can be said about your Creature read. That is an unarguable meta read that we can't engage you with.

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah, but unless you think creature's scum and I'm scum you should probably trust me on it.

[Hoopla]

Yeah, but unless you think creature's scum and I'm scum you should probably trust me on it.

Do you have a habit of clearing people based on meta?

[Raskolnikov]

Well you CAN still argue against it if you make a convincing case for why creature's scum. But I haven't heard a solid argument beyond "eeeh inactivity ehh [something stylistic]".

[Raskolnikov]

I mean I doubt anyone would change my mind but that's just because I doubt I'm wrong about him. It's very unlikely I'm wrong when I think I've played the most with creature out of anyone here.

[Hoopla]

Well you CAN still argue against it if you make a convincing case for why creature's scum. But I haven't heard a solid argument beyond "eeeh inactivity ehh [something stylistic]".

That's the problem, I can't. It's largely a PoE-everyone-else-has-better-reasons-to-be-town thing, so it isn't particularly strong or relevant to Creature specifically, so I don't have a leg to stand on re: arguing Creature's alignment based on his play. I think my best point was his lack of commenting on the Sotty wagon, which had 4 votes at the time he logged off and went to bed -- so it's not like he slept through all of it. And, to be honest, it doesn't really matter if he did. If I find everyone else's interactions with Sotty to appear genuine, then no interaction is scummy by default.

[Hoopla]

I mean, you are right that if you're town, this opinion about Creature should hold more weight, but then it means (from my perspective) that goodmorning and Maria are both scum, with neither or them bothering to distance/bus Sotty when she was going down. I feel like both being scum and hard-defending/trying to counterwagon while Sotty is being lynched seems like a strange position for them to both take. I don't see this team as likely.

I think you're more likely to be wrong about your Creature read or scum.

[CloudKicker]

Im pretty much the first who outed a hard read on rask in the beginning of the day before my claim and seemingly everyone ignored me

[Raskolnikov]

Hoopla if you think creature is scum, who do you think is his partner?

[Raskolnikov]

Not because I actually care, but if you have creature as being with either gm or maria you can't then refuse to lynch either of them.

[Raskolnikov]

Forget the team stuff for a moment.
Do you really as an individual read scumread creature over either of goodmorning or maria?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla if you think creature is scum, who do you think is his partner?

I think Creature works best with goodmorning (not sure why BV is eliminating this combo), and perhaps you? Although, I guess it is a little on the nose trying to clear him so brazenly.

[Raskolnikov]

Well you should lynch goodmorning with me then. If your reads are creature > gm > me I don't understand your vote at all.

[Hoopla]

Forget the team stuff for a moment.
Do you really as an individual read scumread creature over either of goodmorning or maria?

Roughly on par with goodmorning. I think Maria is townier than both of those two.

[Hoopla]

Well you should lynch goodmorning with me then. If your reads are creature > gm > me I don't understand your vote at all.

I think Creature, gm and you are all pretty close that I'm constantly reevaluating which one is more scummy, to the point where it's driving me crazy. So I'm sticking with my top town read until I think about it properly some more. Right now, I feel pretty easily influenced and don't think I make the best choices in such situations.

[Raskolnikov]

Even creature though. Creature-maria is straight up out.
Creature-gm isn't really a concern when I'm pushing gm anyways.
Creature-you? Ehhhh. He was kind of your counterwagon d2 (which both GM and I think later maria joined).

Individually too, I think I'd go back to doubting cloud before creature tbh.

[Raskolnikov]

I mean, you are right that if you're town, this opinion about Creature should hold more weight, but then it means (from my perspective) that goodmorning and Maria are both scum, with neither or them bothering to distance/bus Sotty when she was going down. I feel like both being scum and hard-defending/trying to counterwagon while Sotty is being lynched seems like a strange position for them to both take.

The only person who would've been on a clear bus or distancing position on that wagon is you.

But that analysis isn't looking that far into it;
Maria if scum was committed to hard defending at that point and making a 180 to distance or bus would probably have been awkward.
GM herself admitted she doesn't bus and I don't get the impression is a particularly good scum player anyways so cwing like that (not hard defending, just voting elsewhere and not saying much) doesn't clear her in that wifom sort of way.

[MariaR]

If everyone thinks I can be in a team with people shouldn't you be voting me over whoever you're voting because this just reeks of chainsaw

[Creature]

Hey Hoopla, are you sorting the game?

[Creature]

Not sure if I can lean on these team eliminations.