Mini 458 - Game over!

[ThAdmiral]

confirm

[ThAdmiral]

It depends on what time zone your in.

[ThAdmiral]

vote: NOT no lynch!

[ThAdmiral]

I just think you're reading into things a mite bit too much. But good effort to check up on their messages and stuff though.

[ThAdmiral]

I would like to see j-man pressured.

vote: j-man

[ThAdmiral]

I don't see how anyone can really be classified as lurking just now. The games only been going for a few days. I think we all just have to chill out a bit.

[ThAdmiral]

Voting for lurkers is often a mafia strategy, as they know that they only have to post enough to not be classified lurkers.
It also means that the person killed doesn't provide the town with much information, as he probably didn't get on enough to accuse people etc.

oh and the admiral no need to pressure me ill post on my own quite happily,

IGMEOY

1. I'm supposed to know this before my vote?

2. Who says I wanted you to post more anyway. I just want to see how you act under a bit of pressure. So far you haven't convinced me to unvote.

[ThAdmiral]

@ J-man: you mentioned in your last post that you had suspicions against dylan, pickem, mos, as well as myself. Is this just because we are voting/advocating votes on you?

Also, does anyone find it ironic, not to mention hypocritical, that j-man wanted a quick-lynch, and now that he is facing a potential one he is saying it would be a bad idea?

[ThAdmiral]

Did you miss my earlier post directed at you?

While I don't like the posts by J-man so far, I'm going to wait for a little more evidence to base an opinion on.

Voting for lurkers is often a mafia strategy, as they know that they only have to post enough to not be classified lurkers.
It also means that the person killed doesn't provide the town with much information, as he probably didn't get on enough to accuse people etc.

So what is your prescribed course of action? Target those who chase lurkers? Ignore lurkers as if they aren't in the game?

In my opinion our initial objective should be to pressure all players into posting enough content that a reasonable case can be made against a couple players, and a reasonable case can be made for clearing the rest. So long as there is a player out there that I don't have enough information on to found an opinion upon, I'll refuse to extend that player the benefit of the doubt.

ThAdmiral: could you clarify your post, or do you stand by your words as they currently exist?

I do not like the possibility of J-Man being lynched while we still have so many players that I have so little information on.

I say pretty much ignore lurkers for now. They aren't harming the game as much as they would later, and either they will start playing the game or be replaced.

Yes, but if he were mafia he would say he was normal, and if he was normal, he would say he was normal. So with that, we only know he's mafia, normal town, or cop/doc...we really don't know.

Why get him to claim then?

1. If he's cop, he claims cop, we lynch someone else and then the doctor (hopefully) protects him overnight, he reveals his results the next day etc.
2. If he's mafia he might feel pressured and take a risk and claim cop or doc. Either way at least one person knows he's lying, and in these situations the truth will eventually come out.

In this case it is true that we did not gain much information by him claiming vanilla townie, but at least we know that if he is lynched we wont be hitting a power role.

[ThAdmiral]

In this case it is true that we did not gain much information by him claiming vanilla townie, but at least we know that if he is lynched we wont be hitting a power role.

But we don't know he's not a power role. He could be cop, he said he wouldn't claim until at least -1, and might not want to come out as cop yet, if he comes out then the doc will have to protect him and a townie WILL die tonight.

He could also be a doc, you never mentioned a doc. If he's a doc, then if he came out he would die tonight, unless doc can self-protect, but I don't think they can.

a) The mafia may still try to hit him if he's cop in the hope that the doc isn't paying attention, or whatever, and fail.
b) In some games doc's can protect themselves, in other games they can't. Regardless if he claims doc, and that he can protect himself, the mafia are put in a situation where they can risk hitting him and hope he's lying or hit someone else. If he claims cop and that he can't protect himself the mafia once again have to consider whether they should hit him or not, because theirs a chance he's lying and

can

protect himself.

first of all we dont even know IF there is a cop in the game (either way), or a doc for that matter this game 'could' just be mafia and vanilla's and that is another reason for the cop not to claim because he very well may not be protected during the night. so be very careful in the future I am sure that it is NOT in the towns favor to get a claim at this point, think this over and know that IGMEOY ALL

secondly about the mafia claiming, this is probably the perfect situation a mafia could go into if he was rdy to claim (likely a cop claim ofc), with either a no kill night (to set up for a doctor) or a random kill using the logic that the mafia didn't want to chance a missed kill and so veared away from claim (incase there was a doc)

all in all claims at this point are bad for town and only have the potential of helping mafia (o look another reason why i think MoS is mafia)

It seems as if he's trying to hint he's a power role without coming out and saying it. This to me means he's either scum not wanting to outright claim for fear of a counter claim, or an actual power role who feels he will be targeted tonight.
I'm leaning towards the first one. He should see by now that if he is a power role he should just claim.

[ThAdmiral]

Also, are you changing your mind about the power roles?

I don't understand what you mean by this.

[ThAdmiral]

Also, are you changing your mind about the power roles?

I don't understand what you mean by this.

I was just joking, what I meant was that at first you said we know he's not a power role, but then later started saying he might be.

Oh I see. Well his language now indicates to me that he is a power role, or at least that he is implying that he is.
If he is a doc that can't protect himself then that will be extremely unlucky for everyone (except the mafia), although I don't see why a doc would have been so eager to get to night.
If he is a power role I'm thinking he will be cop, as when I've been cop I can't wait to get to night to investigate someone. If he is then I don't see that as being detrimental to the town: I've seen many games where an early cop claim has lead the town to victory.

[ThAdmiral]

Obviously my last post was made as j-man was submitting his role-claim post, which pretty much makes it obsolete.

@ J-man: I'm sad that you feel this way. All I can say is don't lose the faith because of one game.

@ everyone else: I still think he's the best play, but since there's no deadline there's no harm in discussing his claim post before further action. It isn't entirely without a ring of truth.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't feel that J-man hasn't defended himself. He *did* post a defense, but it was a defense that struck me as the sort newbie town would make, being overwhelmed by the pressure he's under.

I see what you mean here. I think I wrote something like his post when I was starting out, feeling helpless in the face of a first day lynch. Although I've seen clever scum do similar things as well, I don't think a clever scum would have tried to rush a quick lynch in so early in a game.

and oh before you toss the hammer down i really do believe that the game style on this site is broken in the detriment to the active townie somthing this game has always been fun to me because of.

and all the posts i have made i believe incase they make a difference in days to come

This is the one that really got me. If he is scum, then well done sir for putting so much doubt in my mind.
That being said I'm not quite ready to unvote just yet.

[ThAdmiral]

Why? If you are doubtful, you should not be voting him when he is so closely to lynch. At the very least, unvote and FoS him, there is no protown reason to still be voting him if you are doubtful that he is scum.

Alright, settle down. Firstly I didn't think that he was in so much danger that an unvote was necessary, especially since you had just unvoted. I was actually interested in seeing if anyone else, say an anxious scum, wanted to jump on and put him back to -1 to try to push through a lynch. However, since I've now revealed my plan I might as well...

Unvote

I guess I also stayed on because I thought that even if he is town he's been playing badly, and I guess I just didn't feel like letting him off the hook so easily. Not a pro-town sentiment, perhaps, but it's how I felt. So, whatever.

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

I had another look at this and like it a lot. Looking forward to the response.

[ThAdmiral]

unvote

Because you agree with what others have said, or because it's just the cool thing to do now?

[ThAdmiral]

You can gain alot of things from a claim, but people lie in this game. People lie and it's alot harder to tell when they are and when they aren't. You're not playing with them face-to-face, so it's alot easier for them to lie and you believe them, or for you to not believe them and lynch wrong. So really, you don't always gain things from a claim.

You know there are other topics to talk about. You just seem to be getting caught up with the whole claim thing. I'd like to see your opinion on other matters as well.

[ThAdmiral]

vote: dylan41985

[ThAdmiral]

Stop apologising!

[ThAdmiral]

Right now I'm willing to give pickem the benefit of the doubt. He seemed a bit scummy to me earlier but he may very well have just worded things slightly different to what he was actually meaning.
Right now I think dylan should start speaking. He's gotten away with his actions for too long.
And just as quick as j-man started seeming like a hapless townie, he climbs right back into my scum books. It's a long shot but he could have seen a 'defence' work like that in another game and then lifted it.

[ThAdmiral]

J-man: I don't think you've earned the right yet to say someone else sucks. Just sayin'.

[ThAdmiral]

He better not just copy and paste j-man's lynch-escaping post.

[ThAdmiral]

@ adel: love the graphic. Do you do this in all the games?

@ dylan: I'm not unvoting you, because you haven't convinced me you're not scum, and at best you are just an extremely unhelpful townie whose bandwagon votes will more often than not help the mafia.

@ numenorean: I see what you're saying about tromboner/curioskarmadog. Although I don't plan on voting I'm going to be keeping an eye on him.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral: who do you think is the scummiest replacement? They are all appearing quite protown, are you as skeptical as I am? Who do you think we should be pressuring, since dylan is going to be offline?

Scummiest replacement: probably ckd. I also thought the line...

But you are a replacement like me, so I doubt you are mafia.

rubbed me the wrong way, as it seemed to be trying to not-so-subtly imply he was town as well. Something I don't think real towns do. His explanation is acceptable, but I still feel iffy on that line.

Honestly I don't want to change my vote though. I don't want to no-lynch, and at this rate it seems we will. Even though the general rule is that the longer the day the better for the town, there has to be some sort of limit, right?
Furthermore with j-man I felt his 'defence' truly smacked of the disillusionment of a newbie-town. Dylan, however has flatly refused to defend himself, and then goes on to say: "oh I'm off, so you can't really lynch me" in a rather smug way.
He's the best play in my eyes.

[ThAdmiral]

I haven't been able to get on recently, but I'm back now.

Instead of just giving up, Dylan, and then getting angry at the people who are voting you for it, either put up

some

kind of defense, or put up

some

sort of argument why someone else is scummier than you.

Yes it will be hard work, and will involve some rereading of the thread, but it is the only way to save yourself if you are in fact town.

If your scum though, just continue as you have been.

[ThAdmiral]

I still think dylan is scum, and that we should lynch him.
But I guess I can wait until all this replacement stuff happens.

[ThAdmiral]

This whole statement is ridiculous. Quietly voiced? You are joking right? You have tried to get this bandwagon started for some time now. I am not hungry for another bandwagon, I just want to lynch scum. I am trying to discover weaker players? Really, by your own account I have “attacked” Mole, Num, and yourself? I don’t define either of the 3 as weaker players, do you? I think J-man and Kate are scum, do you think they are less scummier than Mole, Num, and yourself? Then how am I looking for weaker players? I am trying to find scum.

If you honestly thought that mole or Num were scum I think you would've pressed harder for longer. As it is, you take a little snipe, discover significant defenses, and move on down the list to the next target.

Well said.

Yes, I believe that ckd could very well be scum. The only people I would not be willing to lynch right now are myself, Adel, Dylen, and Crub (aka J-man)

I can understand how you don't see Dylan's and J-man's behavior as scummy, just newbie. But I don't see why you are so sure they're pro-town: can't newbies be scum, too?

Seconded

I am also interested in the recent tendency of players to include kate in their "scum" category. What is even more interesting is that although many people have done this she still doesn't have one vote on her.

[ThAdmiral]

AND for the reread that will come!

Numenorean7,
Adel
Crub
MoS

Not surprised by this vote though, MoS thinks more info will come by my hanging than Dylan's..which I tend to agree, which is why I am posting the vote count, it will be easy for the town later. My hanging will result in a lot of suspicion on Numenorean7, Adel(who really pushed for it), and the hammer. This is how I think the votes will go down from here…I will get the HungryJoe vote once he logs back in and once Admiral sees the town is in to the bandwagon he will do his trademark not much content vote…who will be the 3rd? My guess is mole or Kate (both would have reason to vote). Of course I would not be surprised if the VI did me in...that my friends WOULD be irony. That leaves NabNab and Pick. Now Pick has been in and out since MoS turned the pressure on him, and he is the only one who (as of late) hasn’t jumped on my bandwagon or FoSed me and I already have NabNab’s FoS. So it really doesn’t look good for me. I am confident Hungryjoe and Admiral votes will come shortly…so who will be the hammer?

Interesting thought to ponder, for a guy (who is on the chopping block for being mafia) I sure have a ton of people as enemies and little support.

At any rate, give me till Sunday (it will be time consuming) to get my Crub is SCUM post in…and since I cant post after I am dead, I want to get all my finger pointing in now.

Why waste time second guessing what people are going to do and pre-gloating over how wrong everyone is when you could have spent the time on this supposed sunday post of yours.
This sort of behaviour doesn't help, it only makes you look more flustered, pressured and afraid of being lynched. It also seems as if you are just trying to create this "post" out of nothing and are trying to buy time.
For your information I wasn't planning to vote for you but your smug comment "I am confident Hungryjoe and Admiral votes will come shortly" makes me want to more than ever.

[ThAdmiral]

I am not resigning to anything. This lynch will happen because the mafia is REALLY manipulating you guys. I am typing this to help you guys later. THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE. I am not trying to appeal to emotion from anyone. Hopefully by this lynch, you guys will figure out where to go next. Not being the VI here, NabNab…their posts where mainly, “go ahead and lynch me, you will be sorry, and this is who I think are scum”….I WANT you to lynch me…At the time Crub and Dylan lynches would not have helped you, though I feel a Crub lynch now will give us tons of info, just the bandwagon alone is given you guys much info, but without my lynch, it doesnt have much context.

Yet more time wasted when you could be posting the "crub-is-scum-super-post".
I just don't see why you're so sure you're going to be lynched when two people before have been in the exact same position as you and then been overlooked. Wrongly overlooked, I feel. Which is why my vote remains on dylan.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm still worried about a power role getting outed.

As am I. We've had a few claims now and it's just making it easier for the scum. And I fear the way things are going, in that we can't seem to decide on a lynch, that we'll get a few more before the day is done.

@ CKD: That was seriously good stuff. I didn't like how you purposefully left out j-man's most important post (i.e. his "defence") as I think it did give off a strong newbie-town vibe, but overall excellent stuff. You really made me question a lot of what's happened in the game so far.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral

I have been saying that ThAdmiral is pro-town, but I'm starting to wonder, particularly because of the early no-lynch wagon:

carrotcake random-votes no-lynch (36)
tromboner agrees, votes no-lynch (39)
kate agrees, unvotes (40)
ThAdmiral agrees, votes no-lynch (47)

Just for this,

FoS ThAdmiral

. No-lynch is a bad idea, and putting on the 3rd vote is really suspicious. I've already mentioned this in conjunction with carrotcake/N-N, tromboner/ckd, and Kate, but ThAdmiral is perhaps the most culpable. I'd like an explanation of post 47. I've previously mentioned his lack of content. He often says over again what has already been said. He posts infrequently, and never says much when he does. I believe he may be lurking in plain sight. I'm keeping a closer eye on ThAdmiral from now on.

Ha! I can see how you got confused but I actually voted: NOT no lynch (go have another look). I probably should have made that a bit more clear.

Saying that Mike is scum with Vinny isn't at all the same thing as saying that there are two and only two scum. ckd's theory never left out the possibility of there being a forth- I was watching for it. Your statement that there are 3 scum seems to infer that somehow you

know

that there are exactly three scum.

It is definitely a scumtell.

I disagree. He was referencing ckd's three scum, and also for a game of this size it's normal to expect a scum group of three people. I think 4 would make it a bit ridiculous for the mafia (mislynch day one and it's lylo), and 2 would make it ridiculously hard.

ThAdmiral: You are still convinced about dylan, right? Please make your case if you really are convinced.

I'll put together my case and get back to you.
To summarize it's basically his lurking and bandwagon jumping, but I'll do a post-by-post.

[ThAdmiral]

@Nab-Nab: I don't think the case on HJ is very strong. I personally can understand his progression of suspicion against dylan quite easily.
I think it's good that you're looking at all the players though.

@Everybody: PBP of Dylan.

unvote: carrotcake

vote: J-man

for seeming over-zealous to get to night time (maybe so he can kill me?)

Perhaps his finest hour: a vote with a reason. Although the end bit just isn't necessary.

joining a bandwagon vote may seem suspicious, but it's too obvious! I'm not that dumb.

WIFOM

unvote

No explanation. This just came after a few other people had left the j-man wagon.

vote J-man

again

Once again no explanation (this will become the norm for Dylan). What's even more strange is that j-man

hadn't even said anything

between his previous unvote and this revote. He just up and changed his mind.

Mod:

does J-man have 2 or 3 votes?

I don't really know why he asked this. Anyway he could have just checked for himself.

it is kind of suspicious that Mastermind of Sin confidently states that "J-man is not scum." Are they working together?

Mastermind - can you explain why he isn't scum?

He's feeling a bit of heat here. Perhaps this is a bit of deflection, added to a bit of, "hey lets go back to the previous bandwagon".

Adel, I don't know what I just said that made you vote for me. you know this is one of my first games

Using the old newbie defence. Sorry, but first-time players can still be mafia.
Also it seems as though he's played in a number of games anyway. Enough to know what's expected behaviour at the very least.

I've already accepted that I'm going to be lynched. I'm innocent though.
Do me a favor and kill off Adel, Kate, molestargazer. They're scum.

No explanation behind his suspicions, as always.

unvote: J-man
Vote: Mastermind of Sin

not that it matters.

I think Mastermind is more scummy than Kate[/b]

Well why didn't you mention him in your previous "these people are scum post". You're not very helpful are you.

wow Adel! maybe you do have some townie goodness in your heart!

Here he's saying adel is town because she unvoted him. Flattery coupled with bad logic = scummy.

You know, I would almost rather be lynched and watch all the mafia who voted for me squirm and the townspeople feel guilty as you find out that I'm innocent. However, my life is more important to me.

Everyone says I'm a horrible player and they hate the way I play. Ok, that's fine. That makes sense. I like to lurk and watch your posts.

But you're all suspicious of me because I haven't said much and only wrote ten words when I did speak. That isn't fine. I don't think you can justify any type of theory that lurking makes me scummy. Lurking is one of my favorite pastimes and if you want to hate on me for that, then that's not very nice.

You all say "EXPLAIN YOURSELF, DYLAN. WE WANT TO HEAR YOUR EVIDENCE."

I say...No. All I have to explain is that I didn't have much to say. And I want to hear YOUR evidence. Real evidence against me. Ironically, the only people who know that I am innocent are the mafia, because they know I'm not on their side. And they are the people putting ideas in your brains. They're brainwashing you to make me seem scummier than I am!

I really feel like many of the attacks on me are crazy.

For example... molestargazer says "

Appealing to emotion. Just because you're a new player doesn't mean you're not scum

" and then goes on to say "

I really don't like the way you're playing. You seem panicky under pressure, and that's understandable - but I want to get some firm evidence and something solid to discuss

."

This is such a flimsy argument!

Please let me know what else makes me sound scummy and I'll tell you my reasoning.

I feel that if j-man hadn't gotten away with his "defence" dylan wouldn't have tried to pull this stunt. Fortunately what worked once worked again for him. I've got more to say about this but I'll leave it to my conclusion section.

omg i love your visuals, Adel!

For once we actually agree on something.

Hey all: I'm actually in the same boat as NabakovNabakov, except I'm not sure exactly how much I'll be able to post. Don't vote me out while I'm gone! haha

That haha at the end just makes me see red. "I'm not going to be here so you can't vote me, suckers!" is what I read that as.

I'm not back yet, but I got the chance to post. Once I'm dead and you all discover that I'm innocent...please lynch Kate, molestargazer, and MasterMind of Sin.

Thanks, I really appreciate it. Although I doubt you'll do it since you aren't listening now.

Reiterating his list-o-scum. Gives us the old "the whole world is against me, and no-one even cares" routine with the last line. So, sympathy garnering again.

Kate, I don't feel like defending myself because it's just no use. Stop asking me to explain myself! I have nothing else to say. You all think I'm scum because it's the easy way out. And because I was lurking?

GOOD BYE KATE.
it looks like you won this battle...although I really do want to stay in the game.

He asked in his previous posts for people to ask him questions so he could defend himself against them, and in this post decides not to. Once again, what a prime example of helpful townsmanship!

you're making me crazy pickemgenius! i am not anti-town and do not have anti-town behavior (for real, at least) so stop saying that to everyone. And thanks for lying when you said you were going to give me until July 1... was that the first time you lied in this game???????

Pickem repsonds with something like: "Well you lied first, because you said you were going to get back on july 1st and you came back sooner. When you did you became fair game." And dylan...

ok, well nevermind my comment about lying then. i don't think you're scum.

...accepts.

hey all -
I'm back! I'm also sorry if I have offended anyone as much as J-man.

Well sorry implies that you might be willing to change to rectify the situation.

unvote
vote: curiouskarmadog

However this obviously isn't the case as he just goes back to what he does best by voting the biggest bandwagon, without providing a reason.

In conclusion Dylan has exhibited scummy behavior in a number of ways, most damning of these is his propensity to lurk, not provide reasons for his votes, vote for the largest bandwagon, and finally refuse to defend himself when questioned.
He says himself that he lurks all the time and that it cannot be used as an argument against him. Fair enough, but as a result of his lurking we only have a limited amount of material to work with when reviewing his actions, and even still nearly

all

of it is questionable.
Finally even if he is a townie I think he is probably better off dead anyway. His tendency to just pile his vote on a growing wagon means the mafia need fewer votes to lynch someone, as they know they can probably rely on dylan to help them out.

If dylan wants me to unvote him he must provide

satisfactory

reasons for each and every vote and unvote that he has placed throughout the game.

[ThAdmiral]

Mod:

does J-man have 2 or 3 votes?

I don't really know why he asked this. Anyway he could have just checked for himself.

Per made a mistake in the vote count ... he was pointing it out. You really need to read the whole thread not just his posts ...

I skimmed over some of the bits that didn't really matter so much. I could have even left out quotes like that but I decided to include everything. I think you'll find where it counts I've read the posts surrounding his.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't get it. I'm getting voted since I presented my case on dylan, even though I've had my vote on him for weeks now.

My comment about him being a useless, or even worse, mafia-helping town, is valid in my opinion. If you don't like it, ignore it and focus on the rest of the case against him (which I think is fairly strong anyway). It was only supposed to be an extra reason to vote him on top of everything else.

I'm actually starting to get fed up with all this talk of "lynching for information". I thought the idea of the game was to lynch who you thought was most likely to be scum.

[ThAdmiral]

I want to pressure you into adding a little more to the conversation. There are at least two more scum in addition to dylan, assuming you are correct about him, and you've sat for most of the day with your vote on the VI. Regardless of his alignment, we will gain little information on you if we lynch him.

Fair call.
I'm usually one to take things one day at a time (since my speculations about "who's scum with who" tend to be wrong, sadly), but I will think about this and put forth who I believe the scum group is.
Also, while I haven't been actively seeking other scum I have often put forth my opinion on other people's arguments. So it's not like I've been doing nothing.

You could also be an underachieving townie who is obviously capable of contributing a lot more to our town's success. If that last possibility is the case, would we really be worse off if we lose you, since you aren't doing much for us anyway? And if that last question really bothers you, and it should, remember that it ha the same foundation as your most recent rationale for lynching dylan.

Well it's a bit of a stretch, but I see your point.
Once again, though, my recent rationale is not why I'm voting dylan, it is just a little cherry on top of all the other reasons that I am.
To put it another way, if he, or anyone else, had been tacking their votes on the bandwagons, but been fairly active and pro-town generally, I wouldn't mention it.

If you think he is useless as town, imagine the dismay of his partners if he is scum!

Well, he's still alive so I can't imagine them being too unhappy.

I'm keeping my vote on you

because

you lazily left your vote on dylan all day and put little effort in rooting out other scum.

Once again, fair call.
However, I'm reminded now of something someone else said as a rationale to vote dylan, which was that he distracts the town from going after other mafiates. At the time I disagreed with it, but I realize now I

have

been a bit bogged down solely going after him.

[ThAdmiral]

THAdmiral: You seem to concede just about every one of Adel's points, but you advocate continuing on the same course. I can understand if you don't agree with her(?) arguments because this seems to be an issue based more on personal conviction than logic, but don't say you do then just igonre them.

I wasn't planning to, nor do I see how you can draw this conclusion from my post.

My first impressions on who is scum with dylan:
This is based mainly on logic, based mainly on voting. It is unlikely to be my ulitmate conclusion, but rather is a starting point.
NabakovNabakov - didn't vote for dylan, furthermore put forth subtle reasoning why we shouldn't vote him (would not give us any information, VI thing).
MoS - didn't vote for dylan. Said he put forth a good "defence" (similar to j-man), and furthermore said he was pro-town.
Adel - Unvoted dylan when he got to -1. Then attempted to avert everyone's attention with pretty visuals (joke).
Pickemgenius - unvoted dylan early as he was going on vacation and didn't want to leave his vote on someone if he couldn't change it. Then voted him later, but only when dylan looked certain to go (bussing).

More later.

[ThAdmiral]

@Mos: You may be right that adel and num haven't really mentioned each other that much. I still don't think that constitutes proof of a scumpair of any sort. Nor, in my opinion, a very strong case.
Your post breakdown of adel is an interesting read, however, as I had previously not had any doubts about her, and now I have at least slight ones.

@Adel: I see where you are coming from saying mos is power role hunting (as he has switched his pressure target a number of times now), but you are taking it for granted that other people will follow him and pressure whoever his target is until they claim, which, for the most part, they haven't done.

[ThAdmiral]

I've been a bit busy recently but I'm back now.

We all have to realize that although we've been meandering about for the past couple of weeks looking at people, voting them and then moving on, our choices here are final.
I also think, though, that we should not be afraid to vote. I will be looking very closely at anyone who does not vote somebody by day's end.
I must stress once again: choose carefully. Just because Adel and Mos are the current flavor, it does not mean you have to vote for either of them; just vote for who you think is the scummiest. Of course if you think it is one of them, go right ahead.
What I mainly don't want to hear is: well I would've voted for X, but it wouldn't have made a difference so I just voted for Y, since he already had a few votes on.

[ThAdmiral]

/me still isn't understanding the logic of those voting dylan.... If any of them would like to explain, that'd be cool.

Until then I might as well vote somebody who i'm unsure about from that list.

Vote: HungryJoe

You don't understand the logic behind a dylan vote?
Weren't you the one that wrote a long list dissecting dylan's posts showing examples of why you thought he was scum.
Perhaps you should explain why you think those examples no longer apply.

[ThAdmiral]

I'd like to hear from ThAdmiral and Kate about the MoS wagon. Neither of them have posted in over 48 hours.

In my opinion it was very suspicious.

All of the most recent votes (nabakov, numenoran and ckd) seem to have been done by people wanting to get on a bandwagon, all providing barely enough of a reason to do so. Numenorean and ckd in particular, both basically stating: "I agree".
The unvotes don't don't do much to assuage my suspicions either. It seems those players are happy keeping mos well ahead of anyone else in terms of votes, without having to share any guilt if he does get lynched and turns up innocent (furthermore they have a ready set reason to put there vote back on him later if need be: "I was just allowing him to return and respond").

[ThAdmiral]

getting ready to head out, but want to get this out there....Admiral is has pretty much stayed under my radar, but this really bugged the hell out of me and it implies something that is untrue..

I was one of the first people to a.) place a vote on MoS and b.) state my case against MoS...please get your facts straight.

Fact

is your vote was on adel, nabakov said his bit and you put your vote on mos.

@ThAdmiral: You're entitled to your view on the matter, but I personally don't think a case built on a full re-read of the thread is all that scummy. Neither is unvoting to prevent a lynch before a proper defense can be mounted. It seems as if you're going out of your way to twist the wagon on MoS into a monstrosity.

Do you know how easy it is to do a reread analysis planned around making one person look scummier than the others?
Better question - do you know how easy it is to disguise a bandwagon vote by doing a reread of the thread and in the ananlysis "coming to the conclusion" that that person is scummier than the rest.
Answer: very.

I suppose it could be argued that I got onto a convenient bandwagon at an opportune time. But my suspicions had been building for a while, and (as I said in my post), NabNab's analysis and how MoS acted when he was leaving clinched it for me. Each of us has some unique reason (if you'll look back a little ways into the thread) for voting MoS. Although I do understand your suspicions of this wagon: it has gone rather quickly.
I was prepared to unvote when I saw ckd's vote, because I didn't want MoS lynched before he had a chance to respond, but NabNab beat me to it. It all makes perfect sense to me.

This is somewhat new for you, Admiral. You have mostly been talking about Dylan. This is the only time I can remember you've brought up a good point about something else, which hadn't already been brought up already. I'm glad to see content from you, but if MoS is lynched and turns up scum, I'll be looking more closely at you.
What do you think about the case itself?

The case is based on the fact that MoS has shifted targets during the day, and those suspicious of him believe he is doing this to push them to claim, therefore outing all the power roles.
Isn't everyone else to blame for this as well? Haven't we all switched targets at least once today?
I don't believe it's solely MoS' fault the day has gone for 30 plus pages, yet at the moment he seems to be the scapegoat.

[ThAdmiral]

@ Nabakov:
Fair enough. It just seemed a little suspicious to me that you happened to find that the person with currently the most votes is the person who also got your vote.
I've seen in other games a mafia player will go to great lengths to hide there bandwagon vote so they don't look suspicious by doing a reread and finding that player most scum, or "suddenly" finding new evidence and voting them based on that etc. whereas a townie would have just gone right out and voted that person.

On a separate note I still think we're letting dylan off the hook too easily. He's lurking again, and so continuing to avoid suspicion from most of the players.

[ThAdmiral]

Um...so does everyone want to post, like, a "top three most likely scum" and "top three most likely town" list?
Or something.

By the way what exactly is thespival, and how long does it last?

[ThAdmiral]

Scum:
Dylan
Pickem
hmmm. I'm going to say Nab-Nab

Town:
MoS
Num7
Tarhalindur

[ThAdmiral]

He just ticks a few scummy boxes for me:
- Doesn't post very often, so stays under radar
- Hasn't mounted a strong case against anyone (he did pbp's of dylan and ckd I think, but then didn't end up voting for them), so hasn't really put his opinion out there to be criticized as much as other people
- MoS's case of pushing bandwagons while not getting on them
- As I made mention before is one of a few possible scumbuddies with dylan
And finally...
- I've got a gut feeling

Separately they're not so damning but together they make an ok case in my opinion.

[ThAdmiral]

@ nabakov: I put it to you that you added your last "tell" to the list to single me out.
That's cool. And if anyone wants to "scrutinize" me, that's cool too.

[ThAdmiral]

You could have had the common courtesy to at least refer to the post number. I had to dredge back through 12 pages to find this.
(Or you could have reiterated why you thought I was suspicious in a more succinct way, but whatever)

FoS ThAdmiral

. I think your voting on J-Man was also suspicious. Firstly ThAdmiral was very insistent that J-Man come out and claim his power role, and even starts to fish for a doc/cop roleclaim.

He should see by now that if he is a power role he should just claim.

Oh I see. Well his language now indicates to me that he is a power role, or at least that he is implying that he is.
If he is a doc that can't protect himself then that will be extremely unlucky for everyone (except the mafia), although I don't see why a doc would have been so eager to get to night.
If he is a power role I'm thinking he will be cop, as when I've been cop I can't wait to get to night to investigate someone. If he is then I don't see that as being detrimental to the town: I've seen many games where an early cop claim has lead the town to victory.

I don't see what's wrong with these. J-man was hinting that he was a power role and if he was going to do that he may as well have come out and claimed.

He even suggests that J-Man is cop, or "clever" scum but still comes to the conclusion that J-Man is the play for today! (I don't think anyone will agree that J-Man played a clever game no matter what my role)

You're twisting my words here. Before his claim I suggested that

if his claim hints were true

he might be cop. After he claimed and said he wasn't cop I initially thought he was still "the best play". Why?
Because he had still lied to the town.
Because he had still tried to push through a quick lynch.
Because he hadn't really defended himself.
After reading J-man's post again, and after reading some of the things MoS had said about it, things that touched on what I was already thinking to some extent (remember I did say his post wasn't "entirely without a ring of truth" [post 167]), I decided I was going to unvote, but not then. I posted the follwing:

I see what you mean here. I think I wrote something like his post when I was starting out, feeling helpless in the face of a first day lynch. Although I've seen clever scum do similar things as well, I don't think a clever scum would have tried to rush a quick lynch in so early in a game.

If he is scum, then well done sir for putting so much doubt in my mind.
That being said I'm not quite ready to unvote just yet.

(also note that in the above I didn't say he was "clever" scum. Read it properly and you will see this)

Alright, settle down. Firstly I didn't think that he was in so much danger that an unvote was necessary, especially since you had just unvoted. I was actually interested in seeing if anyone else, say an anxious scum, wanted to jump on and put him back to -1 to try to push through a lynch. However, since I've now revealed my plan I might as well...

Unvote

I guess I also stayed on because I thought that even if he is town he's been playing badly, and I guess I just didn't feel like letting him off the hook so easily. Not a pro-town sentiment, perhaps, but it's how I felt. So, whatever.

You suggest that my last two post should be read in the following way:

When MoS called him out on this reasoning he quickly unvotes, and then go's into his shell.
Since then he has contributed hardly anything except for pushing the bandwagon at the time (both dylan's and ckd - although he didn't vote for ckd).

Firstly I didn't go into my shell; I explained my actions and then continued to contribute to the thread as much as I normally do.
Secondly I was one of the people who started the bandwagon on dylan, so why shouldn't I push it. Especially if I thought (and continue to think) that he is scum.
Thirdly I

didn't

push the bandwagon on ckd. If you think I did then show me examples of this.

Anything else?

[ThAdmiral]

In order not to start a hug reply-pyramid I will respond to people's posts without quoting them.

@ Crub: I can see how you could construe my posts as pushing the ckd wagon, but it was truly just frustration at CKD, who constantly said he had a case to defend himself, but kept coming up with snide remarks instead.

You mention my suspicions of pickem's play, and also that my playstyle is similar. Well I guess the fact that I have been getting heat for

m

y playstyle from other people

supports

my stance! (in a round about way)

My post 329 was basically just a bit of frustration on how long the day was going for. Yes, I know that a long day is supposed to be good for town, but I'm only human and was frankly getting bored.

@ Pickem: we pretty much just have to agree to disagree. One thing I will say is that I have put a scumpartner at -1 on several occasions. In a funny way sometimes it helps put off someone dropping the hammer, because everyone acts more carefully.

@ CKD: You can't deny, though, that your vote on MoS looked opportunistic. And just because you have mentioned in the past that you think MoS, Adel and crub are a scumgroup (which you have recently said you now doubt and have changed that to 2 out of 3), this does not give you free reign, at least in my eyes, to just jump on a bandwagon that forms around any of those three.

[ThAdmiral]

It's a long shot but I thought I'd bring it up: distancing scum battle?

[ThAdmiral]

Has there been a serious push on kate ever? I can't seem to remember one if there had been (and I can't really be bothered checking through the whole thread).

[ThAdmiral]

Vote: ThAdmiral

He hasn't said much besides "Dylan is scum" and "I'm not scum." Sure, some of his posts have content, but most of them are very short and don't add anything new. A lot of people have mentioned this...

but no one is voting him

. I find this very interesting.
ThAdmiral is condemned by his own post. For instance:

Voting for lurkers is often a mafia strategy, as they know that they only have to post enough to not be classified lurkers.
It also means that the person killed doesn't provide the town with much information, as he probably didn't get on enough to accuse people etc.

Dylan has done more than just lurking in my opinion.
Anyway with a day this long we have plenty of information to work with on everybody. The concept of lynching for information is pretty much rendered obsolete now.

By the way why is it suspicious that "

no one is voting

" me. Are you accusing everybody else of being scum as well?

[ThAdmiral]

I think kate was just saying she always plays, or at least always tries to play, the same; if she is cop, scum, town or doctor or serial killer or whatever else.
Whether this is true or not is another issue, but I don't think such a big case can be made around a wording slip-up (MoS).
Nor do I see how you could possibly think she was claiming cop, num, when you seemed to understand what she was saying, or trying to say, the first time round. (Hopefully you won't be too devastated by this, but you just slipped out of my top three)

[ThAdmiral]

I think num read "why don't you look up the other game I was cop in" as "why don't you look up the other game

in which I was also

cop".
I guess it is somewhat ambiguous grammar.

In other news: I completely agree with the recent heat on adel, especially the comment that she is hypocritical for accusing MoS of rolefishing, and then asking CKD to claim.
If you've made a decision to throw your vote away (an idea I think is flawed because your vote may count in spite of your decision anyway, plus your increasing the odds for the scum), can I just say that I think it is a very bad idea. Don't just give up - you'll never get a scum day 1 doing that.

I think it's time for me to reasses my dylan situation as well.

unvote

I'll will probably put it back on him, but I am allowing for the possibility of being convinced otherwise. Right now adel is in my sights, but I'm giving adel a chance for previous good behaviour.
I also have my eye on crub.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't like your claiming... it was absolutely 100% uneccessary imo.

Also iirc she never ASKED you to claim...

It sits uneasy with me because it looks like you're flustered, or afraid of something.

Seconded.

Also it sounds like you are defending ckd, nab-nab.

[ThAdmiral]

If the town agrees I am happy to be lynched, because I am Vanilla town so the town will not lose so much, and the scum will not gain so much. Maybe if I am lynched and when I'm confirmed town, the rest of you townies might actually listen to what I have to say.

Let me say this ... you may not agree with my playstyle this game ... this is not how I normally play. I am very frustrated because I feel like the scum are controlling the day and the rest of the town are running around like chickens with no heads. I feel that I am helpless to bring anyones attention, to this.

There is a good case against ckd. Go back and look at the case against him earlier in the thread. Nothing was addressed by ckd. The two wall of words posts that got ckd off the hook was a far fetched attack on me, Adel, and MoS and how we were scum partners. I think while those two posts seemed townlike, I still suspect him for the same reasons that were pointed out during that bandwagon.

I've been coming around on the idea of ckd as scum. I may not pursue him today but I will say this: if adel gets lynched and is town I will go after him. I don't care if that is setting up "chain-lynches", I'm going to do it anyway.

[ThAdmiral]

CKD: you have already aroused my suspicions for a number of reasons (mostly minor ones). If adel turned out town that would just be the final nail in your coffin in my book.

[ThAdmiral]

If Adel comes up town, then why would you be going after CKD?

CKD has been pushing for her lynch rather strongly. MoS has as well (and I wouldn't think too highly of him either in this case), but CKD is higher up on my suspicions at the moment and I would go after him first in any case.

What makes Adel scummy (in your mind.) You can give me posts of yours if you've done this, I just want to know.

In my opinion she's scummy, but not

that

scummy. Or at least there are people above her on my suspicion list (dylan for one). If anything sometimes she just comments on things that are happening without any input, sometimes she asks people questions without providing her own standpoint etc. Also a few of the things CKD has brought up about her (namely her false comments) are pretty suss. I don't really buy the num7/adel thing that MoS is pushing.

What makes CKD scummy (in your mind.) Again, you can give me posts of yours if you've done this, I just want to know.

I would have to say mainly how he reacts under pressure isn't all that great. Especially when he says "I don't care if I get lynched because it will help the town", and then rants at someone telling them how stupid because they because they're voting him.
I also recall that when he did have some pretty serious heat on him earlier in the game he was able to divert everyone's attention with a rather large post implicating three other people (who he is now unsure about), and thus was able to stop the wagon on him without necessarily defending himself (which seems to be the theme of this game).

Basically CKD has been gunning for adel, if she

does

get lynched and

does

come up town he should expect to cop some heat about it. In fact I would say it would be pretty irresponsible of the town

not

to react in this way. I'm just being upfront about it.
Anyway, if he's so sure he shouldn't be worried.

vote: ThAdmirial

What can I say. I'm not at all surprised. The worst part is you'll probably get away with this crap.
Are you voting me because you think i'm the scummiest, or because you are now in a position where you can get back at someone who has been pushing your lynch for the majority of the game?

It seems to be turning into to a three-party lynch: me, adel and CKD.
Hopefully this is not the case because I think there are better options out there.
Like...

vote: dylan

Give the dylan option one last look. I hope and trust you'll see it has quite a bit of merit.

[ThAdmiral]

I have few qualms with allowing a ThAdmiral lynch to go through as I've already stated that I find him scummy.

I agree with the view that ThAdmiral seems scummy.

I don't mind if people think I'm scummy, but I do mind when people state it in a very vague way, i.e. without giving reasons.
I am particularly surprised with your stance, crub, as the last thing I remember is that I had responded to a few of your questions about my apparently suspicious previous behaviour, which I assumed you had accepted as you didn't follow it up. I guess I was wrong.
If either of you, or anyone else for that matter, has anything they would like to actually ask me please speak up. I am sure that if I answer truthfully, as I have done in the past, it will help you decide if I am truly suspicious or not.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAdmiral: The primary reason I find you scummy is because when I look through your posts, just about every single one is pushing the suspicion on another player. Just in recent times.

In other news: I completely agree with the recent heat on adel, especially the comment that she is hypocritical for accusing MoS of rolefishing, and then asking CKD to claim.
If you've made a decision to throw your vote away (an idea I think is flawed because your vote may count in spite of your decision anyway, plus your increasing the odds for the scum), can I just say that I think it is a very bad idea. Don't just give up - you'll never get a scum day 1 doing that.

CKD: you have already aroused my suspicions for a number of reasons (mostly minor ones). If adel turned out town that would just be the final nail in your coffin in my book.

I don't like your claiming... it was absolutely 100% uneccessary imo.

Also iirc she never ASKED you to claim...

It sits uneasy with me because it looks like you're flustered, or afraid of something.

Seconded.

Also it sounds like you are defending ckd, nab-nab.

However, your vote remains safely and uselessly on the VI. (It has been either on Dylan or on nobody for a month and a half) To me, it seems like a clear case of a scum who wants a mislynch, but doesn't want to be on the mislynch wagon.

Another thing that got my attention both times I read the thread was that you were the first one to ask about the length of the days. IIRC, you even requested a deadline.


Of course, none of this is damning evidence, and a lot of it is just vibes. I don't think you're the best lynch for today, but as I've said before, it's out of my hands.

While you say "pushing the suspicion on other players" I say "just voicing my opinion on things". I think that would be preferable to staying quiet.
I also can't see how my vote on dylan is safe. If I had put my vote on one of the other candidates (ckd or adel) I wouldn't be leading the lynch right now. Plus I truly think he is the best option. I honestly don't understand how no one else agrees with me on this.
About the deadline thing - as I said before, I'm only human and was frankly getting a bit frustrated with the length of the day. I am fairly sure other people have commented about the frustrating/potentially detrimental length of the day.

I would also like to extrapolate on my position with CKD/adel. As I have said if adel is lynched and comes up town I will go after ckd. If you look at it a different way if adel turns up scum I will almost completely trust ckd to be town.
To put it in a different light if

dylan

was lynched and turned up town I would expect one or more players to come after me. If you are going after someones lynch you have to accept at least some responsibility for the lynch result.

[ThAdmiral]

I left my dylan vote out there in case anyone else decided to pick it up and go with it. Since no one did it looks as though I am going to have to put a vote on either ckd or adel. I wont be able to get on again today so this is final.

vote: ckd

It's a toss up between the two but as I have said I think he is scummier.

[ThAdmiral]

@ Num: I think I've already said this but I was going to go after ckd if adel turned up town because I already thought he was somewhat suspicious, and him being instrumental in the death of a townie would have pushed my suspicions of him over the line, so to speak. It's moot now anyway, because he's dead now. And yes I may go after Adel. Two confirmed towns thought she was scummy.

@ NabNab: I tried not to be too last minute, but it seemed like it was either me or him, and I chose me!

[ThAdmiral]

@ dylan: and still think you're scum too

@ tar: I agree that going lurker-hunting with as much information that we have is suspicious, but msg seems to be purposefully staying in the shadows for whatever reason. I would also like to hear what he has to say.

@ kate:

I actually never voted him. All I said was that I thought he was scummy and a good lynch for day one.

This to me is even more scummy than voting for him would have been.

Oh and -
@ crub: If your cow says anything again we now know to ignore it.

[ThAdmiral]

You were scummy because you pushed for his lynch without voting him, not just because you didn't vote him.

When people push a lynch and don't vote, its usually so they can say they never really lynchd them and can't be blamed for their death. However, I'm not saying I didn't want him lynched, I agreed with everyone else that he was the best choice of a lynch, but didn't see a point in voting him if he was at L-1

This seems reasonable.

*****

I'm having another look at the ckd wagon earlier on day 1 as it is the only wagon, other than the final one, on a confirmed townie that got to -1 (there were also a few pushes on mos but I don't think they ever got over about 3).

Voting for ckd before his defence: Num7, Adel, Crub, NabNab, Kate, Dylan. Pickem I believe was waiting for ckd's defence before deciding whether or not to drop the hammer.

After defence: - Crub says that CKD is wrong because he is town.
- NabNab points out a few flaws and leaps in logic.
- Adel says she could "pick ckd's case apart".
- MoS says defence is good.
- Adel says she is worried a power role will be outed.
- Crub jumps off.
- Num7 points out a few flaws in ckd's post.
- NabNab jumps off.
- Num7 does a reread and starts to focus on other people.
- Pickem also agrees that ckd has defended himself adequately.
- Adel still seems to think CKD is scummy, but then scrutinizes pickem, and ends up jumping off ckd "until this gets sorted out".
- Dylan wagon starts.
(please note that kate and dylan didn't say anything in this period).

People that come out looking good:
Crub - jumped off fairly quickly.
NabNab - came around to think that ckd was pro-town after his defence.
Pickem - didn't drop the hammer when he had the chance, basically.

People that come out looking bad:
Adel - that comment of being able to pick ckd's case apart, the lament that a power role may be unearthed (as in: "we should just pick a person and stick with them!), swinging suspicion onto someone else (pickem).
Kate - said nothing (perhaps hoping someone else would just come on a drop the hammer).
Num7 - attempts to keep up pressure on ckd, and when this fails moves on to other targets (pickem + thadmiral).
dylan - jumped on the wagon late, and then didn't say anything until pressure was put on him later.

[ThAdmiral]

When you say "Came out looking good/bad" do you mean at that time, or in retrospect?

In retrospect.
I'll check out the mos one as well. Thanks for the tip.

[ThAdmiral]

Would a replacement have to read the whole thread? It seems to me the last 20 pages or so would be sufficient.

Yes, it is a bit odd that you would say this.

[ThAdmiral]

MoS wagon.

- Dylan votes MoS for throwing his vote around.
- A few pages later Adel votes MoS for power role hunting
- Crub also puts his vote on to "see where this is going"
- Nabakov does a reread which points to MoS as scum. He votes him.
- Num7 votes mos stating "I've been convinced"
- CKD votes mos to "see what happens" as "I have my theories"
- Nab unvotes as he feels it is unsafe to have mos at -1
- CKD unvotes mos as he is going away
- ThAdmiral says the bandwagon is suss (WooT!)
- Molestargazer says he is "joining the side who are convinced against MoS and his playstyle"
- Pickem says he is still getting "mainly townish vibes" from Mos, but will have to do a reread
- Tar states he doesn't like the mos wagon
- Meanwhile MoS arrives back from thespival and after a bit the wagon pretty much dies.

People who came out looking good:
Pickem - didn't jump aboard, said he thought mos was mainly town
Tar - didn't like the wagon
ThAdmiral - thought the wagon was very suspicious

People that came out looking bad:
Nabakov - convenient that reread makes mos look scummy, although to be fair was among the first to start unvoting (although he said he may put his vote back on)
Adel - kept on pushing the wagon even though MoS wasn't there for some of that time
Molestargazer - for pushing the wagon (i.e. agreeing with the people on it) but not voting himself.

[ThAdmiral]

Note that molestargazer is now, of course, Albert B. Rampage

[ThAdmiral]

Guys...?

This is asinine.

I think that Albert's claim that Adel only crunches the numbers when she's scum was completely unfounded, and he's been backpedaling in a very Albertian manner. For one thing, I doubt that a player who wants to look a tad scummy to avoid an NK will use a weak meta-game tell that they don't even believe in to do so.

Albert, you are obviously attacking Adel in this game. I would ask you to stick to real evidence within the game to support your attacks. I believe you have already posted some, but it has gotten quite mixed up in your meta-bullshit. I always find playing with you to be an... intersting experience because you often seem to follow completely non-game related motivations, and it absoultely frustrates any attempts to figure out your in-game motivations. While it might appear to be so, this is not an advantage as you almost universally come out looking scummy.

In other words, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt for now. Make an actual case on Adel or face the consequences of unfounded attacks.

Well said.

However I do believe an actual facts-based-in-this-game argument can be made about adel-scum. For example in the readthroughs of the two -1 wagons of ckd and mos, adel ends up in the "looks bad" pile both times.

Right now I wouldn't be against an adel lynch...



(or a dylan one of course!)

[ThAdmiral]

@crub - you've got my stance correct in your list thing. It's not even that I'm overly suspicious with either of them - it's more I would be comfortable with a lynch of either of these two people.

[ThAdmiral]

@ crub - could you explain why pickem is on your "easy" list?

@ Kate - what do you have to say to the allegations that you often disappear for long periods of time, especially when things start to heat up?

[ThAdmiral]

@kate: well for one example when ckd was being bandwagonned you disappeared. I am sure there are other times as well. I will have a look back and find a few more examples.

[ThAdmiral]

Sorry for lack of posting recently. Was just moving into an apartment actually!

I guess I can't really come down to hard on kate for disappearing every now and then...

I await mos' adel analysis.

[ThAdmiral]

Tar: do you want to say anything about your no-reason-supplied vote for adel? It seemed a little random especially since the last I can remember you were talking about one of me, pickem or Num7 as most-likely scum.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral's request for explanation, however, felt scummy to me - like a scum trying to fish for a way to make a townie look bad.

1. I thought my question was valid.
2. I don't like how you've not-so-subtly suggested you are town-aligned with your last line.
3. I'm really, really, really hungry!!

[ThAdmiral]

I'm still here, I'm just still waiting for mos' analysis.

[ThAdmiral]

If that wasn't the hammer...

vote: adel

[ThAdmiral]

@ Tar: you may not like it when a mafiate says they are scumbuddies with X but it's a valid tactic and can set up mislynches in the town leading to a mafia victory. It may not be the best tactic, or the most admirable one, but it is still a tactic.

I'm potentially willing to vote num but would someone summarise the points against him. As far as I can tell there are some very tenous links, and also the assumption that the mafiates would all be working closely together, which I've hardly ever seen happen.

[ThAdmiral]

See I'm confused because there seems to be arguments that adel and num7 were working together, and there are also arguments that they completely ignored each other?

[ThAdmiral]

He's got a point.

[ThAdmiral]

See I'm confused because there seems to be arguments that adel and num7 were working together, and there are also arguments that they completely ignored each other?

Adel and Num7 worked together *after* they were attacked for completely ignoring each other. They completely changed how they were acting towards each other after it was brought to light. That's just another black mark, as far as I'm concerned.

I see. This actually makes quite a bit of sense.

Can we get a vote count?

[ThAdmiral]

I'm willing to follow this through.

vote: num7

[ThAdmiral]

Crub, what exactly makes you think that Adel's gambit is *more* likely to contain 2 scum than 1? 1 scum is a steel balls gambit. 2 scum is near-certain suicide and retarded to boot. If you think Tar's reaction implicates him, I see no reason why it should make it more likely that there are 2 mafia rather than 1 on the gambit list. Either way, Tar would be scum, so his reaction makes sense.

I think we should definitely consider the fact that the gambit has become very widely known as a result of that thread and was guaranteed to be introduced into the discussion what with Tar being in this game. Because of this, there are many more possibilities for mindfucking that exist. Hell, the scum could have planned Adel's post and Tar's reaction from the beginning. Is that likely? No. Does it introduce WIFOM in a big way? Yes.

I propose it be dropped as a tell or focus of examination. It came from a now-known scum (and crafty player) in what was obviously a planned move. Trying to analyze it objectively is like trying to analyze NK's, you can't do it.

Agree'd

[ThAdmiral]

It's hardly surprising though. There was quite a bit of talk yesterday that if num came up scum crub would be next to go.

[ThAdmiral]

7 people 1 scum (I don't think it would be any other set up at this stage) means 2 mislynches to lylo.

We can pretty much rule out kate, so that leaves us with six people to choose from.
ABR and MoS were fairly instrumental in the lynch of both adel and num7 with tar also on both (tar also voted adel on day 1).
Which leaves me, pickem and crub as good candidates for the first of our "free" lynches.
All three did not contribute to the adel lynch (none of us voted), while on the next day crub voted for tar, pickem did not vote (again) and I voted for num7.
Going back further with voting patterns we see that crub, pickem and myself also all contributed to the ckd lynch on day 1.
I would say from this that pickem is probably the best choice due to his non-voting, followed by crub.

[ThAdmiral]

Well it means that you've been playing your cards close to your chest, which is what a mafiate would want to do.
It also means you don't leave a trail of clues as to what your alignment is, which is what a mafiate would want to do.

[ThAdmiral]

Admiral why are you so eager to give ABR a free pass?

He was instrumental in lynching both adel and num7. Throwing one partner under a bus is one thing. Throwing two is just crazy.

[ThAdmiral]

Sorry for lack of posting. Been busy lately.

If it's out of crub or pickem (which I believe it is) I will choose crub.

vote: crub.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral, what do you think about Tar and Kate?

Tar - due to my analysis of voting I believe tar to be town as he was instrumental in voting off both adel and num7.

Kate - I pretty much trust 100% that kate is the town doctor.

[ThAdmiral]

The only thing that makes me want to pause is why pickem would have gone after tar when mos or abr were more likely town and therefore less likely lynchees.

Although I guess tar did say he was going to definately vote for pick today.

vote: pickem

-1

[ThAdmiral]

Vanilla.

[ThAdmiral]

By the way i'd say process of elimination, i.e. deductive logic, is a very good reason.
Serlock Holmes was well into that shit.

[ThAdmiral]

I totally agree that this game had great activity and good discussion. It was a pleasure to play with all of you.