Mini 458 - Game over!

[pickemgenius]

Having said that

vote pickem

. I agree with MoS as to why pickem is scum. He was inconsistent when it came to the J-Man lynch.

Care to come up with your own reason, and even that reason is pretty weak, atleast give us something new for us to discuss.

No wonder no one has been lynched if everyone who votes has to supply a different reason.

Anyway your actions during the J-Man bandwagon seemed scummy to me. From the start you directed suspicion at J-Man while being very hands off, it's like you didn't want to be involved with the lynching of an innocent townie.

First you convinced Tromboner to start the bandwagon :

You're right in the fact that J-man has been somewhat vocal about your lynch.
Thats a fair point.
A bandwagon doesn't start out of thin air.
If people agree with you, then they might vote for him.

Then you agree that we should be putting pressure on J-Man to get information yet you don't vote for him:

While however unsmart it may be for J-man to be at L-2 relatively early, it's not a bad thing really, it's building pressure and is giving him a chance to defend himself, so we can have a logical decision on wheter or not he is or is not scum.

We see how he reacts to X(5) amount of votes being placed on him.

Yeah if he defends himself, we can tell if it is good or not, and make more progress from there.

I don't know/see many townies offering themselves to be killed, it's not really smart, but that's just me.

And then as MoS already pointed out you laid out why you thought J-Man was scum and yet still didn't vote.

My vibe-o-meter™ just went from wishy washy to more likely scum. I'm not really happy with his last few posts.

Adel wrote:
why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?


I felt that you only answered latter two.
Town members NEED to defend themselves always.

The afformentioned scummy vibes i've recently got is that in my first game ever (Newbie 334) one of the scum didn't post a defense for himself, and only listed a suspicion list. So it's almost like deja-vu, with a different person.


I do agree that we need everyone to comment on J-man, so that we don't come to a hasty conclusion.

I hope that meets your requirements for a reason?

First: I didn't talk talk him into starting a J-man bandwagon.
It was just weird that he was all J-man=scum, so I'll vote mole to see if I can save my ass, so I explained that if he feels he has a solid point, then somebody has to start the bandwagon, and at that time I really didn't find J-man scummy.

Second: There was alot of pressure already on J-man, with 5 votes.
I wanted to see his defense first, as I wasn't getting many scummy vibes from him, so basically it would have been unneccessary/stupid for me to add a "pressure" vote and put him at L-1

Third: Yes, my reason for thinking he could be scum was very shitty though(as has been said before, and I've admitted to), I don't believe in dropping a hammer on somebody for a very shitty reason. I wanted more of a defense aswell from him.


So question to you: You say I should have dropped the hammer on J-man, why should I have, when my reason was very shitty?

[Numenorean7]

I'd be interested to hear why HungryJoe is so high up on your protown list. If anything, I have him on my "more likely to be scum" list.

I don't see evidence against him, and his reasoning strikes me as pro-town. But if MoS and N-N think he's scummy, I'll take another look at him.

Ha! I can see how you got confused but I actually voted: NOT no lynch (go have another look). I probably should have made that a bit more clear.

I apologise.

Un-FoS: ThAdmiral

. I still wish we heard more content from you, but I'm really sorry I misread you.

I'll put together my case and get back to you.
To summarize it's basically his lurking and bandwagon jumping, but I'll do a post-by-post.

I'm looking forward to seeing your PBP. This Dylan metagaming has got me confused. He has been acting scummy, that's pretty much granted. But does he always do that?

While you are generating your case against dylan, please take a look at the three games we cited above. I think they establish that his actions are consistent regardless of his alignment.

I agree. This is the VI concept. To successfully metagame Dylan, we would need to find differences between his play as town and his play as scum, or differences in the play of other, similar players (there should be plenty to choose from).

I still don't buy ckd's defense, but I'm the only one left. Maybe I'm just seeing something that's not there? Still, I don't see anywhere better to put my vote. I'd like to vote Dylan, but it's starting to look like he's a pro-town VI after all, which we should keep around to help our odds. I just finished a re-read, and I feel like I have no idea what's going on in this game.

Mod

Could we have a vote-count please? And if it's not too much to ask... replace Dylan?

[Crub]

First: I didn't talk talk him into starting a J-man bandwagon.
It was just weird that he was all J-man=scum, so I'll vote mole to see if I can save my ass, so I explained that if he feels he has a solid point, then somebody has to start the bandwagon, and at that time I really didn't find J-man scummy.

You say you didn't find J-Man scummy but two posts later you agree with CarrotCake over his suspicions of J-Man?

J-Man seems to want to kill so badly, he wants it more than information. Lurking and NoLynch are mistakes, but he should not be killed quickly for it. Especially because the game is still young.

Or I could be wrong, im new too.
CC eyes J-man suspiciously

I think you're pretty spot-on.
That's just me though.
And I don't think it's a want to kill so badly, as much as J-man wants the game to progress exponentially faster then it should.

Second: There was alot of pressure already on J-man, with 5 votes.
I wanted to see his defense first, as I wasn't getting many scummy vibes from him, so basically it would have been unneccessary/stupid for me to add a "pressure" vote and put him at L-1

I don't think it would have been stupid. As it turns out it was unnecessary because he claimed at L-2 anyway, although he did say that he wouldn't have claimed a PR until L-1.

Third: Yes, my reason for thinking he could be scum was very shitty though(as has been said before, and I've admitted to), I don't believe in dropping a hammer on somebody for a very shitty reason. I wanted more of a defense aswell from him.

So question to you: You say I should have dropped the hammer on J-man, why should I have, when my reason was very shitty?

If you thought he was scum you should have hammered him. If you didn't think he was scum you shouldn't have made a post giving anyone else a reason to hammer him.

Informal Vote Count by my reckoning :
ckd: 3
dylan : 3
MoS : 1
pickem : 2

[pickemgenius]

First: I didn't talk talk him into starting a J-man bandwagon.
It was just weird that he was all J-man=scum, so I'll vote mole to see if I can save my ass, so I explained that if he feels he has a solid point, then somebody has to start the bandwagon, and at that time I really didn't find J-man scummy.

You say you didn't find J-Man scummy but two posts later you agree with CarrotCake over his suspicions of J-Man?

J-Man seems to want to kill so badly, he wants it more than information. Lurking and NoLynch are mistakes, but he should not be killed quickly for it. Especially because the game is still young.

Or I could be wrong, im new too.
CC eyes J-man suspiciously

I think you're pretty spot-on.
That's just me though.

And I don't think it's a want to kill so badly, as much as J-man wants the game to progress exponentially faster then it should

.

I was agreeing the Tromboner shouldn't be lynched so hastily just because a few stupid (possibly) newbie mistakes.

I even kind of defended J-man in that post(see: underlined)

Second: There was alot of pressure already on J-man, with 5 votes.
I wanted to see his defense first, as I wasn't getting many scummy vibes from him, so basically it would have been unneccessary/stupid for me to add a "pressure" vote and put him at L-1

I don't think it would have been stupid. As it turns out it was unnecessary because he claimed at L-2 anyway, although he did say that he wouldn't have claimed a PR until L-1.]

"Pressure" votes shouldn't be used to put somebody at L-1, if you want to put somebody at L-1

just

to add "Pressure" then that's stupid, you need more of a reason then to apply "pressure" to put somebody at L-1.

Third: Yes, my reason for thinking he could be scum was very shitty though(as has been said before, and I've admitted to), I don't believe in dropping a hammer on somebody for a very shitty reason. I wanted more of a defense aswell from him.

So question to you: You say I should have dropped the hammer on J-man, why should I have, when my reason was very shitty?

If you thought he was scum you should have hammered him. If you didn't think he was scum you shouldn't have made a post giving anyone else a reason to hammer him.

Informal Vote Count by my reckoning :
ckd: 3
dylan : 3
MoS : 1
pickem : 2

I thought he was

more likely

scum now. My reasons were very shitty, but you don't hammer somebody because they are

more likely

scum, you drop the hammer when you have non shitty, more concrete examples that the person is scum, and you have to feel like the person

IS

scum, not

more likely

scum.

[Per]

When we reach Page 23 on Day 1 with a biggest bandwagon of 3, it is time to set a deadline...

I'm setting a deadline at 11 July, 16:00 CET (= 14:00 GMT = just 10 minutes less than 7 days from this post).

Deadline conditions:

- The player with the most votes at the deadline is lynched
- If two players have an equal amount of votes at the deadline, the one who reached this amount first is lynched
- If someone reaches 7 votes before the deadline, he gets lynched immediately

Vote Count (#16)

curiouskarmadog: 3 (Numenorean7, NabakovNabakov, dylan41985)
dylan41985: 3 (ThAdmiral, molestargazer, HungryJoe)
pickemgenius: 2 (Mastermind of Sin, Crub)
Mastermind of Sin: 1 (curiouskarmadog)

Not voting: 3 (pickemgenius, Adel, Kate)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch before the deadline.

Also, Numenorean7: I am not replacing dylan41985 unless he becomes inactive or asks to be replaced. You ended up in a game with the players you ended up with. Deal with them.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm feeling a little stuck. Now I don't think curious is scummy enough to lynch, nor pickem, nor dylan, nor crub. The odds are decent that we have scum in that group, but that doesn't mean that there has to be. On the other hand, wagons on players outside that group are increasingly likely to force a powerrole to claim, and that is bad. Additionally I don't know who I'd like to examine next. Num7 or NabNab or molestargazer.

If there was a player who had been on all four wagons, I would vote for her. The problem is, I am the only person who has been on all four wagons.

ThAdmiral: You are still convinced about dylan, right? Please make your case if you really are convinced.

MosS: You are still convinced about pickem, right? Please make your case if you really are convinced.

I already made my case. If you cba to read the thread, that's your problem. I'm not going to waste space copying something that's already been said.

[Kate]

After what's been going on with pickem and crud, i'm actually on pickem's side. This is only my idea of what pickem was thinking, though.

First: I didn't talk talk him into starting a J-man bandwagon.
It was just weird that he was all J-man=scum, so I'll vote mole to see if I can save my ass, so I explained that if he feels he has a solid point, then somebody has to start the bandwagon, and at that time I really didn't find J-man scummy.

You say you didn't find J-Man scummy but two posts later you agree with CarrotCake over his suspicions of J-Man?
pickemgenius in post 92 wrote:

J-Man seems to want to kill so badly, he wants it more than information. Lurking and NoLynch are mistakes, but he should not be killed quickly for it. Especially because the game is still young.

Or I could be wrong, im new too.
CC eyes J-man suspiciously

I think you're pretty spot-on.
That's just me though.
And I don't think it's a want to kill so badly, as much as J-man wants the game to progress exponentially faster then it should.

Yeah, pickem already said this, but it seems more like he's defending J-man rather than agreeing with CarrotCake.

Second: There was alot of pressure already on J-man, with 5 votes.
I wanted to see his defense first, as I wasn't getting many scummy vibes from him, so basically it would have been unneccessary/stupid for me to add a "pressure" vote and put him at L-1

I don't think it would have been stupid. As it turns out it was unnecessary because he claimed at L-2 anyway, although he did say that he wouldn't have claimed a PR until L-1

I think this is just different play styles, pickem thinks L-2 is enough pressure, crub thinks you should put more pressure(L-1)

Third: Yes, my reason for thinking he could be scum was very shitty though(as has been said before, and I've admitted to), I don't believe in dropping a hammer on somebody for a very shitty reason. I wanted more of a defense aswell from him.

So question to you: You say I should have dropped the hammer on J-man, why should I have, when my reason was very shitty?

If you thought he was scum you should have hammered him. If you didn't think he was scum you shouldn't have made a post giving anyone else a reason to hammer him.

see, now i'm confused, I thought he was at L-2, and don't remember pickem trying to convince other's to hammer. If pickem had crappy reasons, he shouldn't have hammered, but also shouldn't have been trying to get others to hammer. I'll have to do a reread tonight, and since i haven't reread yet, i'm probably wrong about pickem, but that's what i think right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

He didn't outright state that other people should hammer. That would've been stupid. He gave an impression of supporting suspicion on J-man, which in turn would convince people that it was ok to go ahead and vote him.

[NabakovNabakov]

@Crub: I find your argument on Pickem at least slightly less convincing because you're trying to define veiws on scum as binary. "I either think he's scum, or I think he's town," and in a game with so little information, shades of grey tend to creep in. If you are trying to exagerate your argument, please stop. If you are applying your own methods to Pickem, please stop thinking of scum that way.

On the Pickem case in general, I think MoS has a bit of a case, but the element upon which it hinges (that Pickem was trying to get others to hammer) doesn't jump right out to me. When reading the thread, it just looked like he wasn't sure what to do and was putting his ideas into the thread (something every good townie should do). After MoS's analysis, does it look scummy? Yes. Is it the slam dunk he seems to think it is? Not in my eyes.

I have to admit that I've been putting off making my HungryJoe case for a while. I'll make a seperate post a little bit later.

Mod:

What are your deadline rules? That seems to be one of the things that changes from mod to mod. If we don't go into deadline with a full majority (7), is it a no-lynch?

[Crub]

@Crub: I find your argument on Pickem at least slightly less convincing because you're trying to define veiws on scum as binary. "I either think he's scum, or I think he's town," and in a game with so little information, shades of grey tend to creep in.

This has just really confused me. My feelings are based on the same things as MoS as I already pointed out ... I just tried to show other instances where pickem was involved in pushing the J-Man bandwagon without actually getting on. Pretty much everyone in the game has acted scummy at one point or another even if it was a one off incident. I'm not suggesting that everything pickem has done in the game is scummy, I'm just saying that I found his vote and his posts inconsistent.

If you are trying to exagerate your argument, please stop.

The only reason why I posted more examples to further my argument is that pickem asked me to. I'm not saying this is concrete evidence I'm just offering reasons as to what posts helped me come to the conclusion that pickem could be scum.

If you are applying your own methods to Pickem, please stop thinking of scum that way.

What do you mean by this? It makes no sense to me.

[NabakovNabakov]

If you thought he was scum you should have hammered him. If you didn't think he was scum you shouldn't have made a post giving anyone else a reason to hammer him.

This was basically what I was referring to. You treat thinking of someone as scum as a black/white issue. Doing something like that is poor reasoning and manipulative rhetoric whether its intentional or un-intentional. It seems to me that your goal is to expand the case on Pickem, and I see no problem with that. However, you shouldn't strech so far that the argument begins to tear at the edges.

I agree 100% with MoS on this. The case against Pickem has been made, everybody should re-read it. If they're convinced, it's a good case. If they aren't, stretching to find more isn't going to help. (MoS was already

very

thourough.)

I'm sorry if this post sounds nit-picky, but I'm just trying to get my point across here. Using shoddy reasoning is either silly or scummy, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one. That's what the last element you quoted was about. It was meant to say"if you

do

see this as black/white, it's time to reconsider."

[Numenorean7]

On the Pickem case in general, I think MoS has a bit of a case, but the element upon which it hinges (that Pickem was trying to get others to hammer) doesn't jump right out to me. When reading the thread, it just looked like he wasn't sure what to do and was putting his ideas into the thread (something every good townie should do). After MoS's analysis, does it look scummy? Yes. Is it the slam dunk he seems to think it is? Not in my eyes.

QFT.

I am looking forward to that anti-HungryJoe post. The only evidence I can see is that he doesn't buy pickem as scummy. I suppose you could accuse HJ of lurking, because he doesn't post much. I don't really see anything against him. I'm prepared to be convinced, though.

Mod: What are your deadline rules? That seems to be one of the things that changes from mod to mod. If we don't go into deadline with a full majority (7), is it a no-lynch?

Um... Per described the deadline rules thoroughly:

Deadline conditions:
- The player with the most votes at the deadline is lynched
- If two players have an equal amount of votes at the deadline, the one who reached this amount first is lynched
- If someone reaches 7 votes before the deadline, he gets lynched immediately

[Crub]

Yes fair enough, I understand what you were getting at I'm new to this too and found it hard to express what I was thinking in response to the "should I have hammered?" question. If he thought he

might

be scum there is no real benefit to lay down a one sided post detailing what makes him more-likely to be scum, other than to convince other people that he is scum.

Also kate : J-Man was at L-1

[NabakovNabakov]

Whoopsie in regard to deadlines. I immediately jumped back to the front page rules once I saw a deadline was on. Didn't even bother reading the post

[NabakovNabakov]

HJ replaced in at around the same time I did. Bottom of page 10 (thank god, only half the thread to analyze) We should definitely consider him a seperate entitey because CarrotCake had been gone for ages by the time he joined.

Introductory post:

Alrighty folks, so I've read up through it real quicklike, and these are my thoughts!

First off, I gotta say this, because this argument is really just idiocy:

You guys are freaking out on pickem for what seems to be absolutely nothing.

Now you're playing semantics, pickem.

No shit.

What else

is

a game on forums? The only way to get your point across is to choose your wordes and play semantics all the time, that's just how you express yourself and your thoughts/feels on things! This is just a 'duh' moment, MoS.

Pickem did NOT in fact say he wanted a lynch, he said that there was in fact a case for a lynch, and that he did not believe in it. He can see, he just doesn't think it's that solid. What you two have done, however, is pull the suspicion off of J. J, who deserved the spotlight because of his suspicious actions, J who's been using retarded crap-logic all game, J who was on the lynching block and hasn't done anything to warrant getting his freedom back, not even a proper defense!

All these factors are leading me to a conclusion that not only is J

probably scum

, but that MoS and Admiral are very suspicious at this point in time. They chose to attack someone who is logical and solid, and chose not to hammer because

he didn't see the same case as strongly as they did?

Hardly townie actions!

MoS has been leading the hardest, with some crappy point in there to boot, including the 'semantics' post. All in all, J-man, MoS, and dylan are all acting quite scummy. TheAdmiral is mostly picking up on whoever's arguing hardest, so I'm not sure exactly what to think of him yet.

Adel is a bit odd, he mostly just asks questions, and not necessarily contributes. I'm on the fence with Kate and Tromboner.

People who haven't posted enough to get a fix on:
NabNab, MSG, Dan.

Unvote

FoS : J-man, MoS, Dylan

These are *just* my inital impressions and thoughts, but still they are a pretty good indication of my direction. Also: hooray for contributing!

No major problems with it, but here it is for completion. Seemed like pretty solid analysis to me. Hooray for Contributing indeed. One thing it does do is seriously spar with what MoS laid down all game. Pickem isn't scum, J-Man is anti-town etc.

Well, alright. I will concede that he [pickem] was actually inferring that people should vote/hammer. Nonetheless, it

was

a suggestion on a very suspicious player. I don't see why, even if pickemgenius was saying someone should vote him, why he should get flak for it. You were all for a J-man lynch, and I think that if pickem was not convinced enough to vote, but close to it, he would naturally be very jittery about putting the hammer down quite yet.

I think this is a fiar assumption for either side of play, since scum doesn't want to found, and town doesn't want to be wrongfully accused. I personally find I suspect a lot of people, but even when I'm fairly sure I don't often want to hammer.

This mainly continues his line of thinking from the opening post. It's hard to see if his logic stems from his thoughts on Pickem or his thoughts on J-Man. Note the final paragraph, and watch what happens later.

Well said, Adel, that's exactly right.

(back to the townie who isn't sure but sees the most suspicious player close... most townies don't want to hammer hastily and make a mistake.)

Hehe. Point and match, ThAdmiral. =)

Toadying, pointless, lurking in plain sight, but also subtley promoting his view of things (go back to the neighborhood of 260 to see context). His play seems to be rapidly deteriorating.

Now watch this, because I found it quite interesting.

Wow. Already up to L -1, hmm? Well, I'm not quite sure that dylan's scum, although I'll admit he's been a bit scummy, I'm not confident enough to place a vote on him. =\ would you like to claim before you get hammered, dylan?

Ugh. Now, I said that dylan was only a bit scummy, but a bit scummy still makes him second scummiest on my list. He's climbing up past the rest, however...

Dylan, you're treading on some dangerous ground here. I really hate to see people who will attack rather than defend themselves, and each minute without a defense or explanation brings me a step closer to a vote for you.

Get with the explanations, I'm only getting closer to not believing you.

*Pointless discussion of WIFOM*

Alright, whatever, Dylan. So, you give us a 'lurking is ok, cuz I do it all the time!' speech, and then drop out of existence. Gee, how convenient. Bleh. You've been acting a little scummy, and then as soon as you get some pressure on you, you get in those whole big thing about how it's ok for just you to be lurky scum-like, and then do it even more.

Bah, I'm done with ya, that's what I say. >=\

You're either scum, or what seems to be purposefully bad town. In either case, we're either gaining by your death here, or at the very least, not losing anything valuable.

Vote : Dylan

NOTE: Important post (350) cut. I want to show all his Dylan posts in a line for effect.

Well, I don't know about pickem, but for now dylan seems to me to be the clear-cut scummier. His lack of defenses, his random hop on and attack attitude, his devil-may-care-kill-me-if-you-will, you'll-only-hurt-yourselves leaving, and "his lurking is ok 'cuz I always lurk!" skip him straight to the top of my personal list, and I think that's right where my vote is going to stay.

I won't say CKD isn't hopping up there, and in your previous post I like your summary of what CKD was saying, 'cuz that's what I was thinking when I read it.

Hah. No joke. He'll probably come back and post something to the effect of "Lurking is good, it HELPS town? And do you know why? Because lurking... is PATRIOTIC. That's right, no townie ever hasn't lurked for the win!" or something similiarly ridiculous.

Oh, man. Now I can't wait.

Dear gods. It's like trying to reason with a 2 year old here. WE've pointed out only too many inconsistencies, and allyou've back with is being a whiny bitch! It's past the time where you can wave things off, at some point you have to settle with a logica and hopefully thoughtful (if you can manage) defense or offense.
The

town idiot

could say "Hey, I think that guy, that guy, and mmm, that one are probably bad guys. Umm. Cuz I feel funny when they walk by! Yeah, yeah!"

If you want us to listen so bad

stop your damn whining, bitching and complaining, and start giving us reasons!

There's nothing I hate more than an idiot who thinks they're more intelligent than their peers, and so far you are the perfect example! We WILL NOT listen until given reason to do so, that must apperently be squeezed like an orange through that little juice maker in your skull, and then pulled out from one of your nostrils with a pair of needlenose pliers and a crowbar! Everything you've done is scummy, and there's no way you can say that you aren't scummy if

everything

points to the contrary! You vote without reasons, refuse to give a statement of any kind, say that lurking is ok just becaus eyou're the one doing it, call us idiots for 'not having reasons', when more than 3 of us have clearly stated more than sufficient reason and you have given none!

There's a freakin' FLOOD of scumminess and idiocy working againt you, and it is all your own doing. Now either get out of your booster seat and give us something worth thinking about NOT lynching you for, or get the hell out of the good townies' way! You're horrible scum if you're scum, and you're a worse townie if innocent! I've reached the stage where even if you

do

come up innocent, I won't regret it because at this stage, you're practically scum even as a townie! You draw suspicion away from them entirely, and because of it, they can slide by with a smug grin and without a care, because you are practically lynchig yourself FOR THEM!

To summarize:

BAH!

I disagree with your disagreement on many levels. Are you saying that you do not have enough will power to be able to over look the town idiot? There is more than 1 mafia out there. Are you suggesting, with Dylan around, you simply lack the capacity to look for other scum? With Dylan here (assuming he is the town idiot) he gives the town another person the mafia will have to get rid of (thus improving our odds). I find it interesting that you want to argue improving the town’s odd against the mafia. OR are you wanting to do the mafia’s work for them?

At any rate I am definitely

FoSing molestargazer

….if this lynch goes down (and it probably will) it will be interesting to see who really pushed this hasty lynch (during the reread)…

this town is full of scummy people (see my previous posts) J-man is as guilty (in many regards) as Dylan...yet he is under the radar right now...I wonder why that is?

Don't be ridiculous, CKD. Of course MSG is right. It's not worth having another townie if all thattownie does is draw suspicion away from its rightful bearers, the mafia. n many cases, killing off a scummy townie has freed up the space for mafia to make mistakes, because if there are less people foused on a summy-acting town player, then they have to contribute more, ad thus, more chances for us t catch REAL mafia. He is right in pretty much every way here, and you're sounding scummier. I agree with Num, you've got a scummy-sounding tilt to most of your posts, and I don't trust a word that you're saying right about now.

Augh. You guys are probably quite correct.

Unvote

I won't let my annoyance with Dylan move my vote. =b The VI is a common role, and does usually end up being town, I'll admit. But beware, J-Man, that if dylan were not here, you would be VI in his place. So tread carefully, lest you invoke all our wrath once more, hm?

Ifhe does play this way all the time, I would agree that we should ask for a replacement (ye gods, he reminds me of Battle Mage... ick.)

Well, I've been kind of watching from the shadows in most games, because I am frustrated with a lot of irl things for the moment, and I don't want to make a rash decision.

However, I do find CKD hihgly suspicious, but I find it quite funny that he thinks I will drop a vote on him. I actually will not. I think that he's a lot more scummy because of/since that post, and I'm also wary of MoS for saying the self-proclaimed lack of defense was a defnese, but I don't think CKD is the worst on the board.

In fact, I think that I was wrong and ThAdmiral is right. I'm gonna put

Vote : Dylan

right back where it belongs. I was convinced before he's scum, I'm convinced now. I'm not going to let him off the hook with a 'you're a newb, no go off and don't be a moron somewhere else." I strongly feel that he could be newbie scum, and I feel that for now, he's the best play on the board. Perhaps not information wise, true, but something can be gleaned from every hanging, no matter how self-lynching.
I do, however, appreciate the look into some of CKD's posts by Adel. Very, very good work, I think. It points out a lot of the things I was thinking but not sure of, and will make a go-through worth doing for CKD.

Those are my two-cents.

And like that, he's gone. His vote remains on Dylan btw.






Ok, there's the evidence. I suggest people read it instead of looking and saying "Oh Yeah, I remember this."

His evolution on the Dylan issue is remarkable and, to my mind, hardly organic. He comes out of the gate making a good impression and promising to be equally suspicious and go after lots of different opportunies (remember when I told you to pay attention to that). Then, from page 12 on it's Dylan for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It seems that the farther away Dylan got from a lynch, the more vehement HJ became in his attacking of him. Going from a "yeah, he could be scum" and a "I think he may be scum" when he's L-1. To a "OMG you totally suck! I can't beleive how bad you are! You're just killing the town with your sucky play!" when the bandwagon looks like it's falling apart. Once it actually has, he complies with the will of the town and unvotes before making a last gasp attempt 2 or 3 pages later.

HJ is scum who came in and decided to make the Dylan bandwagon his baby. When it was going along good, it needed only Pickemeqsue encouragement. "Yeah, the guy might be scum, but somebody else hammer please so I don't look guilty later." As things deteriorated, he put his own vote on and became more and more vocal, playing on pathos and insults in attempts to get folks back on board. He eventually gives up and dissapears. (

Mod

A prod might be useful at this stage. There are certainly things for him to discuss. )


There it is. Feel free to pick it to pieces now.

[Numenorean7]

I do see what you mean about HungryJoe's "evolution on the Dylan issue". To test your theory, I would like to see votecounts on Dylan and posts by Dylan interspersed with HJ's posts.
Does HJ's vehemence increase as the number voting Dylan decreases? That would be a point against him.
Are there any majorly scummy things Dylan said that precipitate HJ's increased hostility? Was HJ's changing view of Dylan caused by scummy posts, rather than a failing bandwagon?

I would look into this myself, but it's late here and I need to go to bed.

[ThAdmiral]

@Nab-Nab: I don't think the case on HJ is very strong. I personally can understand his progression of suspicion against dylan quite easily.
I think it's good that you're looking at all the players though.

@Everybody: PBP of Dylan.

unvote: carrotcake

vote: J-man

for seeming over-zealous to get to night time (maybe so he can kill me?)

Perhaps his finest hour: a vote with a reason. Although the end bit just isn't necessary.

joining a bandwagon vote may seem suspicious, but it's too obvious! I'm not that dumb.

WIFOM

unvote

No explanation. This just came after a few other people had left the j-man wagon.

vote J-man

again

Once again no explanation (this will become the norm for Dylan). What's even more strange is that j-man

hadn't even said anything

between his previous unvote and this revote. He just up and changed his mind.

Mod:

does J-man have 2 or 3 votes?

I don't really know why he asked this. Anyway he could have just checked for himself.

it is kind of suspicious that Mastermind of Sin confidently states that "J-man is not scum." Are they working together?

Mastermind - can you explain why he isn't scum?

He's feeling a bit of heat here. Perhaps this is a bit of deflection, added to a bit of, "hey lets go back to the previous bandwagon".

Adel, I don't know what I just said that made you vote for me. you know this is one of my first games

Using the old newbie defence. Sorry, but first-time players can still be mafia.
Also it seems as though he's played in a number of games anyway. Enough to know what's expected behaviour at the very least.

I've already accepted that I'm going to be lynched. I'm innocent though.
Do me a favor and kill off Adel, Kate, molestargazer. They're scum.

No explanation behind his suspicions, as always.

unvote: J-man
Vote: Mastermind of Sin

not that it matters.

I think Mastermind is more scummy than Kate[/b]

Well why didn't you mention him in your previous "these people are scum post". You're not very helpful are you.

wow Adel! maybe you do have some townie goodness in your heart!

Here he's saying adel is town because she unvoted him. Flattery coupled with bad logic = scummy.

You know, I would almost rather be lynched and watch all the mafia who voted for me squirm and the townspeople feel guilty as you find out that I'm innocent. However, my life is more important to me.

Everyone says I'm a horrible player and they hate the way I play. Ok, that's fine. That makes sense. I like to lurk and watch your posts.

But you're all suspicious of me because I haven't said much and only wrote ten words when I did speak. That isn't fine. I don't think you can justify any type of theory that lurking makes me scummy. Lurking is one of my favorite pastimes and if you want to hate on me for that, then that's not very nice.

You all say "EXPLAIN YOURSELF, DYLAN. WE WANT TO HEAR YOUR EVIDENCE."

I say...No. All I have to explain is that I didn't have much to say. And I want to hear YOUR evidence. Real evidence against me. Ironically, the only people who know that I am innocent are the mafia, because they know I'm not on their side. And they are the people putting ideas in your brains. They're brainwashing you to make me seem scummier than I am!

I really feel like many of the attacks on me are crazy.

For example... molestargazer says "

Appealing to emotion. Just because you're a new player doesn't mean you're not scum

" and then goes on to say "

I really don't like the way you're playing. You seem panicky under pressure, and that's understandable - but I want to get some firm evidence and something solid to discuss

."

This is such a flimsy argument!

Please let me know what else makes me sound scummy and I'll tell you my reasoning.

I feel that if j-man hadn't gotten away with his "defence" dylan wouldn't have tried to pull this stunt. Fortunately what worked once worked again for him. I've got more to say about this but I'll leave it to my conclusion section.

omg i love your visuals, Adel!

For once we actually agree on something.

Hey all: I'm actually in the same boat as NabakovNabakov, except I'm not sure exactly how much I'll be able to post. Don't vote me out while I'm gone! haha

That haha at the end just makes me see red. "I'm not going to be here so you can't vote me, suckers!" is what I read that as.

I'm not back yet, but I got the chance to post. Once I'm dead and you all discover that I'm innocent...please lynch Kate, molestargazer, and MasterMind of Sin.

Thanks, I really appreciate it. Although I doubt you'll do it since you aren't listening now.

Reiterating his list-o-scum. Gives us the old "the whole world is against me, and no-one even cares" routine with the last line. So, sympathy garnering again.

Kate, I don't feel like defending myself because it's just no use. Stop asking me to explain myself! I have nothing else to say. You all think I'm scum because it's the easy way out. And because I was lurking?

GOOD BYE KATE.
it looks like you won this battle...although I really do want to stay in the game.

He asked in his previous posts for people to ask him questions so he could defend himself against them, and in this post decides not to. Once again, what a prime example of helpful townsmanship!

you're making me crazy pickemgenius! i am not anti-town and do not have anti-town behavior (for real, at least) so stop saying that to everyone. And thanks for lying when you said you were going to give me until July 1... was that the first time you lied in this game???????

Pickem repsonds with something like: "Well you lied first, because you said you were going to get back on july 1st and you came back sooner. When you did you became fair game." And dylan...

ok, well nevermind my comment about lying then. i don't think you're scum.

...accepts.

hey all -
I'm back! I'm also sorry if I have offended anyone as much as J-man.

Well sorry implies that you might be willing to change to rectify the situation.

unvote
vote: curiouskarmadog

However this obviously isn't the case as he just goes back to what he does best by voting the biggest bandwagon, without providing a reason.

In conclusion Dylan has exhibited scummy behavior in a number of ways, most damning of these is his propensity to lurk, not provide reasons for his votes, vote for the largest bandwagon, and finally refuse to defend himself when questioned.
He says himself that he lurks all the time and that it cannot be used as an argument against him. Fair enough, but as a result of his lurking we only have a limited amount of material to work with when reviewing his actions, and even still nearly

all

of it is questionable.
Finally even if he is a townie I think he is probably better off dead anyway. His tendency to just pile his vote on a growing wagon means the mafia need fewer votes to lynch someone, as they know they can probably rely on dylan to help them out.

If dylan wants me to unvote him he must provide

satisfactory

reasons for each and every vote and unvote that he has placed throughout the game.

[Crub]

Mod:

does J-man have 2 or 3 votes?

I don't really know why he asked this. Anyway he could have just checked for himself.

Per made a mistake in the vote count ... he was pointing it out. You really need to read the whole thread not just his posts ...

[Mastermind of Sin]

@NabNab's argument: Oh Yeah, I remember this.

[Adel]

Finally even if he is a townie I think he is probably better off dead anyway. His tendency to just pile his vote on a growing wagon means the mafia need fewer votes to lynch someone, as they know they can probably rely on dylan to help them out.

Best case scenario: dylan is scum.
Best worse case scenario: dylan is a usless townie.

If dylan were a power role he likely would have claimed... or not, it is awfully hard to tell.

Does this idea appeal to anyone else?



I don't like this argument very much. If we lynch dylan and he is a townie, we lose a useless townie, but we don't really gain any information in exchange. On the converse side, if dylan is scum he is useless scum. If we lynch pickem instead we gain quite a bit of information either way. If a pickem lynch showed pickem to be town, my suspicion of MoS would increase by a fair amount, as just one example.

After comparing dylans actions in this game to his actions in other games, I concluded that his playstyle can be accurately described as "novice scum" because that is how most people perceive him. If anything, i think he acts scummier when he is town, so in a bizzare way the scummier he seems the more townish I think he is. That is so annoying that I almost want to lynch him just out of frustration and general principle.

[ThAdmiral]

Mod:

does J-man have 2 or 3 votes?

I don't really know why he asked this. Anyway he could have just checked for himself.

Per made a mistake in the vote count ... he was pointing it out. You really need to read the whole thread not just his posts ...

I skimmed over some of the bits that didn't really matter so much. I could have even left out quotes like that but I decided to include everything. I think you'll find where it counts I've read the posts surrounding his.

[curiouskarmadog]

Here are a couple of thoughts that have stuck out at me for the past couple of pages.

I should address MoS’s “defense”. I actually didn’t know it was a defense as I was reading but I think MoS mentions that it was a defense later. The only things I can say is that he commented on everything out there, didn’t really address everything, but did comment on everything.

Adel on the other hand took a different route to my accusations. In post 492, Adel hints that she "can slaughter ckd's (views) with cold and crystalline logic, but that would create an even longer and more impenetratable wall of words." But she doesn’t. Because now she is worried about noise ratio. She wasn’t worried about noise ratio when she was pushing for my lynch…but now I post a lengthy theory of who I think is scum, it is too much. She accusing me of “manipulating evidence to fit your(my) conclusion”. This makes me mad. I present the facts with direct quotes to support my theory. As oppose to Adel who constantly puts words in my mouth and lies to support hers.

Adel please address why you feel it is ok to lie to the town about:

“365 defends his bad logic regarding the innocence of replacements as being innocent”

I never said that…I can show you 3-4 places where I stated my theory, why must you turn my words around to help your case against me?

Then to help your case against pick, you lied about him putting the FoS about J-man.

YET THIS TOWN THINKS YOU ARE PROTOWN?!

I know that I can build a case based solely upon that wall of words that would draw an extra vote to hammer ckd, but I will not.

Sweet Christ I wish you would…if you think I am scum, than you should do it. Or is it you don’t want that kind of heat once you have hung an innocent?

Also CKD, you're "adamant" that I'm scum, I don't know what I can do to convince you otherwise because it seems as if your mind is made up. Can I just ask you

again

. If I'm lynched and turn out to be town, who do you think is scum? Like you I'm happy to be lynched even though I'm a townie as long as we can get enough information from my lynch to lynch a scum tomorrow. What I don't want is to be lynched and then you to go "oh shii ... he was town there go's my theory".

this is a good question. Honestly I don’t know. I agree with some that I could be suffering from tunnel vision. Who do I think would be guilty if you come up innocent? I will cross that road when I have to. I havent a clue.

Moving on, I do not feel like lynching Dylan (even though the little ass put me at –1) at this point would give us any information.

I am not buying the pickem case yet. MoS has made good points about Pick, but I feel that I have made equally as good point about J-man/crub. I would like to see Pick come out with some sort of Scum list/protown list in his view. It may not be your play style, but it

does

seem like you sideline FoS a lot.

HungryJoe…I personally do not see it. Joe had a chance to hammer me without little guilt being placed on him (with Adel pushing it so hard). It would have been easy for him to sit back on a “town made a good point” defense. I think more likely he just dislikes Dylan.

Here (in my opinion) would be the best lynches of the day, which is different from who I feel are the scummiest here.

Crub, Pick, Adel, and myself. (honorable mention goes to that ass hat VI, ewwww, that got under my skin, but absolutely nothing [except his guilt] can be learned from his hanging at this point.) While typing that list, I realize that these are all frequent posters, which does make since why lurking or quick pop in comments/votes are such a mafia tactic is Day 1 (I am still learning this game). Proving the innocence or guilt of any of those 4, however, provides the town with a ton of information.

I left MoS off that list. Lynching him day one (which is not very likely) will prove much if he is guilty, but if he

does

turn up innocent, the only thing that proves is that my vibes are faulty and maybe I should stick to playing online Hearts.

So,

Unvote

I still think MoS, Adel, And Crub are scummy, but I need to except I might have tunnel vision...and listen to what the town has to say.

[curiouskarmadog]

MOD prod Molestargazer..

much has happened since his last post, with a deadline coming..everyone should get their views in.

[Numenorean7]

Finally even if he is a townie I think he is probably better off dead anyway. His tendency to just pile his vote on a growing wagon means the mafia need fewer votes to lynch someone, as they know they can probably rely on dylan to help them out.

That's a very good point. Dylan is little more than a +1 to any bandwagon. I hadn't thought of it that way.

If we lynch dylan and he is a townie, we lose a useless townie, but we don't really gain any information in exchange.

absolutely nothing [except his guilt] can be learned from his hanging at this point.

I disagree: we would get some information from a Dylan lynch. Everyone has interacted (or at least attempted to interact) with Dylan at some point. Revealing his alignment might shed some light on which people already knew his alignment. I believe more can be learned by other players' reactions to a given player than from the behavior of the player himself. Dylan has gotten plenty of reactions.

Proving the innocence or guilt of any of those 4 [Crub, Pick, Adel, and ckd], however, provides the town with a ton of information.

Again, I disagree. Most information from the death of a player is WIFOM: it's often really hard to tell between townie suspicion and scum distancing. I suppose it is unlikely that MoS and pickem are both scum, but what if pickem were lynched and turned up town? Could you be confident MoS was scum? Certainly not. I don't believe a lynch of one of the more active players would provide a whole lot more information than a Dylan lynch.

I am not so sure about ckd any more. Many people have unvoted, and I hate being on a wagon with the VI. More importantly, post 571 looks quite pro-town to me. Curious doesn't abandon his suspicions on MoS, Adel, and Crub, but he acknowledges that he could be "suffering from tunnel vision", and is willing to listen to alternatives. He makes reasonable comments on current events (Dylan, pickem and HJ). I disagree with some of what he said (see above), but overall, I like post 571.

Unvote

Dylan's playstyle is a danger to the town, whether he's scum or not. As ThAdmiral mentioned, he helps any and all bandwagons. If he's town, he helps the scum and distracts us from finding them. If he's scum, he can hide behind his newbieness and past playstyle. I believe we would gain at least some information from his lynch, not significantly less than the information we would gain from the lynch of one of the more active players. With a deadline approaching, I believe that Dylan may be the best lynch for today.

Vote: Dylan

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why is it that I now think at least one of ThAdmiral/Numenorean is scum? Their little bandwagon doesn't sit well with me (besides the fact that I believe him innocent). What they're doing is pretty much what I'd do as scum. From time to time, I've taken a similar stance on BM, and I've usually been scum or not paying attention very well. Just my thoughts...