Mini 458 - Game over!

[Kate]

I think claiming at -1 is a bad idea, if you're not on when you get lynched, and don't have time to claim, you're dead, you lost your chance.

I don't think it's that fair to MoS either, he did ask for J'man to claim, but it's probably just a stupid mistake...however, it does seem a little scummy.

About J-man claiming, how earlier he said he wouldn't claim until -1 seemed a bit odd, maybe he has a power-role, but doesn't want to say it 'till he's at -1...like right now. But Adel putting him at -1 is pretty dumb, it seems like he's pushing J-man to come out as a doc or cop, which is extremely stupid to do on the first day, or else he's trying to break him down as scum, but what if he's really an average townie? Then what? There's actually nothing he can really do...

[ThAdmiral]

In this case it is true that we did not gain much information by him claiming vanilla townie, but at least we know that if he is lynched we wont be hitting a power role.

But we don't know he's not a power role. He could be cop, he said he wouldn't claim until at least -1, and might not want to come out as cop yet, if he comes out then the doc will have to protect him and a townie WILL die tonight.

He could also be a doc, you never mentioned a doc. If he's a doc, then if he came out he would die tonight, unless doc can self-protect, but I don't think they can.

a) The mafia may still try to hit him if he's cop in the hope that the doc isn't paying attention, or whatever, and fail.
b) In some games doc's can protect themselves, in other games they can't. Regardless if he claims doc, and that he can protect himself, the mafia are put in a situation where they can risk hitting him and hope he's lying or hit someone else. If he claims cop and that he can't protect himself the mafia once again have to consider whether they should hit him or not, because theirs a chance he's lying and

can

protect himself.

first of all we dont even know IF there is a cop in the game (either way), or a doc for that matter this game 'could' just be mafia and vanilla's and that is another reason for the cop not to claim because he very well may not be protected during the night. so be very careful in the future I am sure that it is NOT in the towns favor to get a claim at this point, think this over and know that IGMEOY ALL

secondly about the mafia claiming, this is probably the perfect situation a mafia could go into if he was rdy to claim (likely a cop claim ofc), with either a no kill night (to set up for a doctor) or a random kill using the logic that the mafia didn't want to chance a missed kill and so veared away from claim (incase there was a doc)

all in all claims at this point are bad for town and only have the potential of helping mafia (o look another reason why i think MoS is mafia)

It seems as if he's trying to hint he's a power role without coming out and saying it. This to me means he's either scum not wanting to outright claim for fear of a counter claim, or an actual power role who feels he will be targeted tonight.
I'm leaning towards the first one. He should see by now that if he is a power role he should just claim.

[pickemgenius]

Some people just have different playstyles, some like claiming, some dont'. I don't think that makes somebody scummy though.

[pickemgenius]

It seems as if he's trying to hint he's a power role without coming out and saying it. This to me means he's either scum not wanting to outright claim for fear of a counter claim, or an actual power role who feels he will be targeted tonight.
I'm leaning towards the first one. He should see by now that if he is a power role he should just claim.

I'm not sure if he is a power role or not.
I'm still totally ambiguous on his I could fake a doc/cop claim but i'm vanilla. I don't want to claim until i'm at L-1.
He's basically confusing the shit out of me. Sorry, but it's true.


I could see him as scum not wanting to claim power role in fear of getting counter claimed, and thus getting found out.
It is possible he is just straight vanilla aswell.

I'm pretty shocked he's at L-1 right now so basically I just want to hear from him now. To set things straight.

[Per]

Vote Count (#5)

J-man: 6 (fak, ThAdmiral, Tromboner, dylan41985, Mastermind of Sin, Adel)
dylan41985: 1 (DanMonkey)
Tromboner: 1 (pickemgenius)
DanMonkey: 1 (Carrotcake)
Adel: 1 (Kate)
Mastermind of Sin: 1 (J-man)

Not voting: 1 (molestargazer)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Can the mod say all the jobs handed out or is there a place i can go to see them?

No, this is not an open game. You know there are townies and there is scum. You don't know how many of each and you don't know anything about power-roles.

[Trombonist]

No, this is not an open game. You know there are townies and there is scum. You don't know how many of each and you don't know anything about power-roles.

Oh, Okay.

[Kate]

In this case it is true that we did not gain much information by him claiming vanilla townie, but at least we know that if he is lynched we wont be hitting a power role.

But we don't know he's not a power role. He could be cop, he said he wouldn't claim until at least -1, and might not want to come out as cop yet, if he comes out then the doc will have to protect him and a townie WILL die tonight.

He could also be a doc, you never mentioned a doc. If he's a doc, then if he came out he would die tonight, unless doc can self-protect, but I don't think they can.

a) The mafia may still try to hit him if he's cop in the hope that the doc isn't paying attention, or whatever, and fail.
b) In some games doc's can protect themselves, in other games they can't. Regardless if he claims doc, and that he can protect himself, the mafia are put in a situation where they can risk hitting him and hope he's lying or hit someone else. If he claims cop and that he can't protect himself the mafia once again have to consider whether they should hit him or not, because theirs a chance he's lying and can protect himself.

This is true, but not most likely to happen, usually the doc will have to protect the cop while mafia kill another townie, when the docdidn't have a chance of saving them.
Also, in some games the doc can't self-protect. So if you push him to come out and he's doc, we're pretty much screwed, and we lose our doc


Also, are you changing your mind about the power roles?

[ThAdmiral]

Also, are you changing your mind about the power roles?

I don't understand what you mean by this.

[J-man]

i am going to post my full defence in 6 hours time if still at -1 to lynch you guys better be sure this is what you want by then.

[Kate]

Also, are you changing your mind about the power roles?

I don't understand what you mean by this.

I was just joking, what I meant was that at first you said we know he's not a power role, but then later started saying he might be.

[Adel]

i am going to post my full defence in 6 hours time if still at -1 to lynch you guys better be sure this is what you want by then.

Are you trying to blackmail the town by threatening to make a fake-claim?

[Mastermind of Sin]

MOS, I apologize for this horrible play so far.

Asking for a claim at -2 is not a scumtell!

There is a good case to be made for it, I disagree with it, but there is nothing inherently scummy about thinking that way. Waiting until -1 for a claim could a)result in an unaware noobie dropping the hammer or b)scum dropping the hammer.

I was hoping that J-man would argue his way out of his wagon without resorting to a claim, for the reasons I stated above. He has failed so far. My read is inexperienced scum.

unvote vote: J-man

Note: J-Man is at -1 to lynch! No one vote for him without a dang good reason!

The pressure is on now. J-man: why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?

This is why I <3 Adel. Pretty sure she is protown now. Will provide reasoning for this if scum want to try and argue with me over it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I would like J-Man to claim.

This is really stupid, if he's a doc or cop, he might claim, if he's mafia, he'll still probably claim cop or doc, or claim vanilla, like he did. If he's a normal townie, he'll claim vanilla like he did.

So asking him to claim, we'll either get a doc, cop, or townie. But we'll actually never know, so what's the point?

Would you rather he be lynched without claiming? If claiming is really such a bad idea, why does it get done in every game on this site? Why has such a precedent been set if claiming is stupid?

[Adel]

Setting me up to take the NK? Thanks, sorta.

[J-man]

well i can see that you guys are quite intent on killing me and ive spent a hour and a bit reading the posts over and trying to figure out a airtight argument that i could use in my defence, mabye its because of inexpierence that i cant find one but in any case im pretty sure that my defence is already stated and if there is another out there that thinks i am mafia... well then i cant do a whole lot to stop you. the defence behind the hinting about a power role is this, i was hoping that you guys would move on with out moving to the point that if i was i would have to claim.

on a different note this game is being run quite effeciently by 2 people adel and MoS imo they can effectively control and direct the discussion which if either of then are mafia (speccially adel) then town has already lost pressure needs to be applied to them but i can/t see that happening as they are both coming to the conclusion that each other are townie

finnaly i have this to say as my last line of defence i am Vanilla, not mafia; killing me on day 1 with this amount of info that you have is a bad idea you will go into day2 with very much the same amount of info and adel and MoS pushing for the first townie that makes an error in common speech, if it means anything in quite convinced that there are no power roles.

[ThAdmiral]

Also, are you changing your mind about the power roles?

I don't understand what you mean by this.

I was just joking, what I meant was that at first you said we know he's not a power role, but then later started saying he might be.

Oh I see. Well his language now indicates to me that he is a power role, or at least that he is implying that he is.
If he is a doc that can't protect himself then that will be extremely unlucky for everyone (except the mafia), although I don't see why a doc would have been so eager to get to night.
If he is a power role I'm thinking he will be cop, as when I've been cop I can't wait to get to night to investigate someone. If he is then I don't see that as being detrimental to the town: I've seen many games where an early cop claim has lead the town to victory.

[J-man]

and oh before you toss the hammer down i really do believe that the game style on this site is broken in the detriment to the active townie somthing this game has always been fun to me because of.

and all the posts i have made i believe incase they make a difference in days to come

[ThAdmiral]

Obviously my last post was made as j-man was submitting his role-claim post, which pretty much makes it obsolete.

@ J-man: I'm sad that you feel this way. All I can say is don't lose the faith because of one game.

@ everyone else: I still think he's the best play, but since there's no deadline there's no harm in discussing his claim post before further action. It isn't entirely without a ring of truth.

[pickemgenius]

My vibe-o-meter™ just went from wishy washy to more likely scum. I'm not really happy with his last few posts.

why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?

I felt that you only answered latter two.
Town members

NEED

to defend themselves

always.

The afformentioned scummy vibes i've recently got is that in my first game ever (Newbie 334) one of the scum didn't post a defense for himself, and only listed a suspicion list. So it's

almost

like deja-vu, with a different person.


I do agree that we need

everyone

to comment on J-man, so that we don't come to a hasty conclusion.

[J-man]

well im not willing to piss around and waste your time so if im still at -1 in 24hs ill vote myself and you guys can get on wth the game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

unvote

J-man is not scum. Do not lynch him.

vote: pickemgenius

I have a really bad gut feeling about him, especially after his last post. I just get the feeling that he's scum trying to push through the lynch on J-man, while telling him what a protown player should do, so as seeming to educate him for the good of the town. Also, I don't feel that J-man hasn't defended himself. He *did* post a defense, but it was a defense that struck me as the sort newbie town would make, being overwhelmed by the pressure he's under.

pickem's last sentence again sounds like a scum ploy, in that scum often tell the town to not be hasty, as a way of trying to seem protown. You rarely see protown players put that much emphasis in such a statement.

Die suck scum die?

[pickemgenius]

unvote

J-man is not scum. Do not lynch him.

vote: pickemgenius

I have a really bad gut feeling about him, especially after his last post. I just get the feeling that he's scum trying to push through the lynch on J-man, while telling him what a protown player should do, so as seeming to educate him for the good of the town. Also, I don't feel that J-man hasn't defended himself. He *did* post a defense, but it was a defense that struck me as the sort newbie town would make, being overwhelmed by the pressure he's under.

pickem's last sentence again sounds like a scum ploy, in that scum often tell the town to not be hasty, as a way of trying to seem protown. You rarely see protown players put that much emphasis in such a statement.

Die suck scum die?

Heh. I didn't really see it as much of a defense.
I can understand why you have a queasy gut feeling about my last post.

I just really didn't feel there was any case against J-man that warrented a lynch, and I really wanted him to defend himself more so then he has. The reason I told him what a protown player should do is because I felt he was protown. He then said he was going to hammer himself if he was at L-1 in 24 hours, which threw me off, and I was hoping that he wouldn't follow through with it.

My last sentence was added and emphasized becuse we've had a few players not post here in awhile and might not be up to date and probably aren't aware of the situation

People that are in that list:
fak
DanMonkey
molestargazer
Carrotcake
dylan41985

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

Nice try, scum. Die now, kthnx.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't feel that J-man hasn't defended himself. He *did* post a defense, but it was a defense that struck me as the sort newbie town would make, being overwhelmed by the pressure he's under.

I see what you mean here. I think I wrote something like his post when I was starting out, feeling helpless in the face of a first day lynch. Although I've seen clever scum do similar things as well, I don't think a clever scum would have tried to rush a quick lynch in so early in a game.

and oh before you toss the hammer down i really do believe that the game style on this site is broken in the detriment to the active townie somthing this game has always been fun to me because of.

and all the posts i have made i believe incase they make a difference in days to come

This is the one that really got me. If he is scum, then well done sir for putting so much doubt in my mind.
That being said I'm not quite ready to unvote just yet.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why? If you are doubtful, you should not be voting him when he is so closely to lynch. At the very least, unvote and FoS him, there is no protown reason to still be voting him if you are doubtful that he is scum.