Mini 458 - Game over!

[NabakovNabakov]

I agree with Adel. Now that Dylan has shown himself capable of posting in a timely fashion, it would be nice to hear from him.

You're voting MoS because you say he's scummy. Is that for the reasons I outlined, reasons of your own, or just because it looked like a comfy bandwagon.

[HungryJoe]

Ugh. Now, I said that dylan was only a bit scummy, but a bit scummy still makes him second scummiest on my list. He's climbing up past the rest, however...

Dylan, you're treading on some dangerous ground here. I really hate to see people who will attack rather than defend themselves, and each minute without a defense or explanation brings me a step closer to a vote for you.

Get with the explanations, I'm only getting closer to not believing you.

[Numenorean7]

/Confirm

Hi everyone! I'll give this thread a read-through and share my thoughts shortly.

First of all, it looks like I'm on an L-1 wagon, so I'll start with an

Unvote

If the guy has been acting really scummy I may put my vote back on, but if someone hammers, I don't want to be on the lynch without knowing anything about the situation.

Expect more from me shortly!

[dylan41985]

You know, I would almost rather be lynched and watch all the mafia who voted for me squirm and the townspeople feel guilty as you find out that I'm innocent. However, my life is more important to me.

Everyone says I'm a horrible player and they hate the way I play. Ok, that's fine. That makes sense. I like to lurk and watch your posts.

But you're all suspicious of me because I haven't said much and only wrote ten words when I did speak. That isn't fine. I don't think you can justify any type of theory that lurking makes me scummy. Lurking is one of my favorite pastimes and if you want to hate on me for that, then that's not very nice.

You all say "EXPLAIN YOURSELF, DYLAN. WE WANT TO HEAR YOUR EVIDENCE."

I say...No. All I have to explain is that I didn't have much to say. And I want to hear YOUR evidence. Real evidence against me. Ironically, the only people who know that I am innocent are the mafia, because they know I'm not on their side. And they are the people putting ideas in your brains. They're brainwashing you to make me seem scummier than I am!

I really feel like many of the attacks on me are crazy.

For example... molestargazer says "

Appealing to emotion. Just because you're a new player doesn't mean you're not scum

" and then goes on to say "

I really don't like the way you're playing. You seem panicky under pressure, and that's understandable - but I want to get some firm evidence and something solid to discuss

."

This is such a flimsy argument!

Please let me know what else makes me sound scummy and I'll tell you my reasoning.

[NabakovNabakov]

The reason lurking is traditionally seen as a mafia tactic is because it leaves less of a paper trail. A mafioso under pressure can point back to his sparse posting record and say "I want to hear YOUR evidence," and the town won't know how to respond because there won't

be

any solid evidence. For this reason, it has become common practice to nip that whole exchange in the bud by lynching lurkers out of the gate.

The only real evidence the town can have against you is your bandwagony voting record. You seem to just go along with the flow and vote for the person most likely to get lynched. Scum always do this, but only bad scum don't provide at least a topical reason for their vote.

[Numenorean7]

OK, finished my reading. First of all, I wasn't on an L-1 wagon after all: didn't see Adel's unvote.

I believe in Player by Player analyses, so here goes (in alphabetical order):

Adel

Love his avatar, like his posts. He's a bit paranoid for my taste, but that's just my personal opinion, not a scumtell. After all, being paranoid is what makes a good scumhunter! I agree with his opinions on lurking. No irrationality, brings up good points, asks good questions. Townie points for you.

carrotcake=HungryJoe

Nothing much here. I don't like carrotcake's including no-lynch in the original die roll, but other than that she was pretty much absent. HungryJoe has been nicely active since he replaced in, and has made some pretty sound comments, particularly about the pickem issue. A bit too early to tell.

curiouskarmadog=Tromboner

Again, a lurking player recently replaced. Tromboner was acting really weird: voting no-lynch, voting molestargazer just because of the bandwagon, then disappearing. curiouskarmadog hasn't posted much, and didn't say much. Voting J-man because he "has some power"?? Unvoting and then jumping on a bandwagon? Don't like this player much at all.

DanMonkey

DIE, SCUM LURKER!!!!!! Oh wait, that's me.

dylan41985

Extreme statements on no evidence, popping in with a one-line (sometimes only one-word) post, taking newbieness as an excuse, then a big post saying basically, "lurking is my playstyle." I really don't like his posts, but I don't think he's scum, just an annoying person. But scumpoints to you all the same.

fak=NabakovNabakov

Another lurker. (the plague of this game, eh? Poor Per, his first game needs 4 replacements before N1) I like NN's opening of a new front on MoS, but again, not much going on here. Too early for much of an opinion.

J-man

*grimaces* Don't like his playstyle. Bad grammar, bad spelling, unreadable, etc. I just replaced into another game he's in, though, and he's acting like this there too. Perhaps both places he's scum and it's all an act, but it seems unlikely. I think this is just another annoying newbie townie who hasn't quite got the hang of the game, and posts like he's in a chatroom. I'm leaning towards believing his vanilla-claim.

Kate

Kate has been very unpleasent. Refuses to learn MafiaScum terminology and insults us for doing so. Rather hostile. Again, perhaps just playstyle, but I have a negative intuition on her.

Mastermind of Sin

He brought up an interesting inconsistency in pickemgenius' play. He's been pretty active. No irrationality, brings up good points, asks good questions. Townie points for you.

molestargazer

Cute avatar, strikes me as a likeable person. He's been active, but what he did post had some nice content. I'd like to see more of him, but what I've seen looks pro-town.

pickemgenius

He started out pretty well, but he's been going downhill lately. Overdefensive, hostile. He got jumped on because of his implied suggestion that someone else hammer J-man. I don't think it's as much of a big deal as MoS seems to, but it's suspicious nonetheless.

ThAdmiral

I like this guy. He's been very logical and clear-headed. I'd like a bit more content from him, but he's earned protown points from me.

I wonder: did all the scum plan to lurk and be replaced together? Not DanMonkey of course, but perhaps carrotcake, tromboner, and fak conspired to be replaced so that there wouldn't be enough evidence against them until after D1. Kinda far-fetched, but I thought I'd mention it.

In conclusion, here's my scumorder:
curiouskarmadog
Kate
pickemgenius
dylan41985
J-man
carrotcake
NabakovNabakov
molestargazer
MoS
Adel
ThAdmiral
Numenorean7

Vote: curiouskarmadog

Tromboner was seriously scummy in my view, and you haven't done anything to improve your town image in my eyes.

FoS: Kate, pickemgenius

Appeal to learn better style: dylan, J-man

[J-man]

/feels shame

Yea I know I've got bad grammar and such, somthing im working on your appeal is heard and understood; thought I would mention though that talking about ongoing games is a no-no, am I right?

[Adel]

Let me know if there are any mistakes. If there are three mistakes I'll post an errata. I started from post 41 because that was more or less the end of the random voting. I left DanMonkey's random up as an exception since dylan was so close to lynch so many times.

[Adel]

1 mistake so far: the line from HungreyJoe to dylan should be all blue... it was a FOS

[curiouskarmadog]

Let me address I couple different items here…first:

curiouskarmadog=Tromboner

Again, a lurking player recently replaced. Tromboner was acting really weird: voting no-lynch, voting molestargazer just because of the bandwagon, then disappearing. curiouskarmadog hasn't posted much, and didn't say much. Voting J-man because he "has some power"?? Unvoting and then jumping on a bandwagon? Don't like this player much at all.

Actually since I have been here (to replace Tromboner) I only unvoted J-Man and voted Dylan. I never placed a vote on J-man (that was done by Tromboner before I got here). But I understand your mistake, I had to come in reading 12 pages of thread too.

I didn’t so much jump on a bandwagon as much as I thought Dylan was guilty. Why did/do I think Dylan is scummy? (to answer Adel’s question too) More of the same everyone else has said. He usually pops in only to cast a vote. Lurks. Then when the heat is on makes a very poor defense. Just looks scummy.

BUT, then I started thinking. Went to bed last night (after I read Adel’s unvote) and thought about it. (considering I am relatively new, is it bad to think about this game while trying to sleep?) Once I got up and saw that he “hopes” we vote for him I decided he is probably telling the truth (about hoping we vote for him). I think he is not so much lurking, but not interested in the game because he does not have any power. He is probably young and wants to be a in a game where he can do something, and if he does not have power, he is bored with it. Which probably explains why so many replacements were needed for this game. I think Dylan is immature and does want to see us lynch him so he can say I “told you so” So…

Unvote Dylan41985

Numenorean7, enjoyed reading your brief analysis (even though it does target me). I hope it is not some grand mafia trick to divert our eyes from you. But you are a replacement like me, so I doubt you are mafia. At any rate, your post made me go back and look at everyone…Kate is setting off my scum vibe so I thought it was funny that she did yours as well (underneath my apparent scumminess, of course) I do not like when people use older games as defenses, she IS unpleasant, and she defends one of the town’s scummiest looking (J-Man). But doesn’t have a problem putting away Dylan…Is there a Kate + J-Man connection? Numenorean7, you have indirectly made me look at J-man again…at any rate, I think it would be worth a Kate vote…to see her reaction.

Vote: Kate

Also keeping an eye on the MoS and Pick contest….guess we will have to wait till Pick gets back for that to continue.

And Adel, liked the graphic, have no freaking clue what I am looking at, but a appreciate the effort.

[Kate]

Numenorean7, enjoyed reading your brief analysis (even though it does target me). I hope it is not some grand mafia trick to divert our eyes from you. But you are a replacement like me, so I doubt you are mafia. At any rate, your post made me go back and look at everyone…Kate is setting off my scum vibe so I thought it was funny that she did yours as well (underneath my apparent scumminess, of course) I do not like when people use older games as defenses, she IS unpleasant, and she defends one of the town’s scummiest looking (J-Man). But doesn’t have a problem putting away Dylan…Is there a Kate + J-Man connection? Numenorean7, you have indirectly made me look at J-man again…at any rate, I think it would be worth a Kate vote…to see her reaction.

i don't remember using any older games as a defense, this is actually only my second game on the site. I don't think i was defending J-man, i just didn't like the idea of forcing someone to claim. Dylan wasn't in much danger, if i voted J-man he would've been dead.

Kate
Kate has been very unpleasent. Refuses to learn MafiaScum terminology and insults us for doing so. Rather hostile. Again, perhaps just playstyle, but I have a negative intuition on her.

I refuse to learn mafiascum terminology, and insult you? Isn't that FoSing? I may be mistaken, but I don't recall

refusing

or

insulting

about anything.

About Dylan, I don't like that he lurks and then votes someone, and after we've said to explain himself, he doesn't and just votes someone else. I really don't like his attitude, and like curious said, he's probably just not interested and bored, though if he is, he should ask to be replaced or just stop talking until he gets replaced.

[ThAdmiral]

@ adel: love the graphic. Do you do this in all the games?

@ dylan: I'm not unvoting you, because you haven't convinced me you're not scum, and at best you are just an extremely unhelpful townie whose bandwagon votes will more often than not help the mafia.

@ numenorean: I see what you're saying about tromboner/curioskarmadog. Although I don't plan on voting I'm going to be keeping an eye on him.

[dylan41985]

omg i love your visuals, Adel!

[NabakovNabakov]

My God Adel, that is as amazing as it is confusing. Good show! I think the effort that went into that graphic makes up for all the lurkers we've had in this game.

@Numen: I definitely think we should give CKD a chance before we start voting him. You seem fond of writing scummy behavior off to newbiness, so why doesn't Tromboner get the same treatment as Dylan or J-Man?

However, I do have to admit that Kate pinged my scumdar for reasons I just can't put my finger on. I'll try a quick re-read later and see if I can find anything concrete. It seemed like she, more than anyone else, was trying to feign inexperience. I find it hard to beleive that somebody who has played even one game on this site doesn't know what WIFOM stands for, and even if she didn't, it's not that hard to find out. There was no reason to make it public except to announce "Hey guys, I don't know what I'm doing here. Please give me the benefit of the doubt" We have enough of that already.

[curiouskarmadog]

[quote="Kate] i don't remember using any older games as a defense, this is actually only my second game on the site. I don't think i was defending J-man, [/quote]

Well let me refresh your memory. In post 57 you reference an old game and defend J-man

In my old game I was last to confirm, but I was the cop.

and here again, you help him in post 113

So J-man now has 5 votes, with seven to lynch...great idea town! put him in a position where mafia can easily kill him!
About the whole lurking thing, just because you're not talking as much, doesn't mean you're scum, maybe you're just busy or don't have anything to say about what's going on.
I think Adel is more suspicious in my eyes, how before it seemed he was pushing to kill the lurkers, and looks like he wants bandwagons:

You keep defending him in post 122, 136 (later in the post), 155...and on and on.

it was a pain to go back and read those posts...so please next time you lie, make it a good one.

[Adel]

Well, I found three mistakes, fixed them, and added some more information.

[Adel]

curiouskarmadog: you really nailed her. Her next reply should be interesting.

Could someone tell me the post numbers for posts where someone voted someone else to -2 to lynch?

I'm interested in how to present objective game data in a way that is clear and concise. Eventually I'll get the knack for it. I do them in other games, sometimes, but these are the best so far. I'm glad y'all like them, I enjoyed messing with your avatars. HungryJoe looks really great in front of carrotcake.

So, how to read the graphic:
First remember that I am not including random votes, so in collecting data for this graphic I pretended that no votes occurred before post 41, except for DanMonkey's since his sat on dylan forever and I am assuming that he choose to leave it there at some point for non-random reasons. I left fak's early vote on Tromboner up there because I missed it. If it had a number it would be zero.

There is too much information in this game to keep track of, putting as much as possible in a diagram is supposed to help with that. Print it out, and write on it. At least you will have a record of all votes and what order they came in as a starting point.

[Numenorean7]

Way to go Adel! 10/10 points for effort! It's great that you take the game so seriously. The graphic is kinda... dazing.

Offline Friday-Sunday of this week. See Va/LA thread

We'll miss you.
On this topic, I'll be out of town next week, but I should have Internet access so I hope it won't affect my posting much.

talking about ongoing games is a no-no, am I right?

In some circumstances, yes. It seems to be OK purely for metagaming purposes, if you don't cite the game specifically. I think the rule is mostly to protect the game you're talking about. The main problem is revealing one's role or other sensitive information about the game in question. At least that's how I see it.

@Numen: I definitely think we should give CKD a chance before we start voting him. You seem fond of writing scummy behavior off to newbiness, so why doesn't Tromboner get the same treatment as Dylan or J-Man?

They all trike me as newbie, but J-man and Dylan's behavior seem a bit like newbie town, wheras Tromboner's seems more like newbie scum. Of course, I'm not dismissing J-man and Dylan by any means, but they have gotten more than their fair share of attention, and I'm trying to get the town to broaden its horizons.

Speaking of broadening horizons, Adel's graphic points out something interesting about ThAdmiral. He hasn't done anything besides voting J-man and Dylan. He hasn't done a whole lot in the discussion either, with fairly short posts often reiterating stuff that has been said already. Is he lurking in plain sight?

considering I am relatively new, is it bad to think about this game while trying to sleep?

Good for the game, bad for your sleep.

Also keeping an eye on the MoS and Pick contest….guess we will have to wait till Pick gets back for that to continue.

I am also looking foward to seeing that continue. MoS seems to be gone as well.

I'm considering moving my vote to Kate. curiouskarmadog is looking a little better: he hasn't panicked under suspicion, for one thing. But Kate is looking worse and worse. I agree with Adel, her next reply should be interesting.

I refuse to learn mafiascum terminology, and insult you? Isn't that FoSing? I may be mistaken, but I don't recall refusing or insulting about anything.

Hmm... Let's see...

by the way, with all the "WIFOM" and "BM" stuff, can you guys stop talking like idiots, 'cuz I can't understand anything that's going on when you guys talk like that...

I've only played in one other game, and WIFOM is used alot, however I still don't know what it means or any of the other crap you guys say

ok, i read wat WIFOM means, ... but still don't really know what the heck anyone's talking about

So are you saying i wrote this when i was drunk or something?

IMHO, this is refusing to learn terminology and insulting those who do, plus being overly irritable.

[Kate]

i don't remember using any older games as a defense, this is actually only my second game on the site. I don't think i was defending J-man,

Well let me refresh your memory. In post 57 you reference an old game and defend J-man

In my old game I was last to confirm, but I was the cop.

and here again, you help him in post 113

So J-man now has 5 votes, with seven to lynch...great idea town! put him in a position where mafia can easily kill him!
About the whole lurking thing, just because you're not talking as much, doesn't mean you're scum, maybe you're just busy or don't have anything to say about what's going on.
I think Adel is more suspicious in my eyes, how before it seemed he was pushing to kill the lurkers, and looks like he wants bandwagons:

You keep defending him in post 122, 136 (later in the post), 155...and on and on.

it was a pain to go back and read those posts...so please next time you lie, make it a good one.

Me using an old game was a really example. Besides, other people have been using examples alot, why focus on me when it wasn't even serious? We were still random voting then.

My post 113, I was giving my opinion about lurking, not j-man, i said before that i just didn't think you were always scum if you lurked, i've changed my mind about that now, but that was just what i thought.

I went back and read those posts you said i defended j-man in, 122, 136, and 155, which i'm guessing you mean 156. 122 and 156 aren't right, however 136 is fair.

While however unsmart it may be for J-man to be at L-2 relatively early, it's not a bad thing really, it's building pressure and is giving him a chance to defend himself, so we can have a logical decision on wheter or not he is or is not scum.

So how will you know whether he's town or not? If he is town, he'll most likely defend himself or say, "Hey, kill me if you want but I hope you all die!", if he's mafia, he'll probably do the same, unless he decides to fake claim as cop or doc, but if he were the cop or doc, he would still claim.

This was number 122, and wasn't about j-man. Any posts about claiming and stuff are about how i don't like the whole claiming idea, not about making any specific person to claim, just forcing to claim in general.

This is true, but not most likely to happen, usually the doc will have to protect the cop while mafia kill another townie, when the docdidn't have a chance of saving them.
Also, in some games the doc can't self-protect. So if you push him to come out and he's doc, we're pretty much screwed, and we lose our doc


Also, are you changing your mind about the power roles?

This is also about claiming, just like I said before. Not J-man, just the idea of wanting someone to claim.

I'm considering moving my vote to Kate. curiouskarmadog is looking a little better: he hasn't panicked under suspicion, for one thing. But Kate is looking worse and worse. I agree with Adel, her next reply should be interesting.

I'm looking worse and worse yet i've only posted once since i was under real suspicion, and I really don't believe that looks panicky. I said i don't remember refering to older games, defending j-man, and that i didn't know what you meant when you said i was refusing to learn mafiascum terminology and i thought i never insulted anyone. Go back and read it, its not panicky.

IMHO, this is refusing to learn terminology and insulting those who do, plus being overly irritable.

The first one was meant to be more jokish, i didn't mean anyone was actually an idiot. Now tell me how this is refusing to learn, i asked four times and didn't get an answer until the last time, i looked it up and it didn't make sense so i asked again, this isn't refusing to learn, this is trying.

[Kate]

Me using an old game was a really example.

Sorry, really

bad

example

[Kate]

Me using an old game was a really example.

Sorry, really

bad

example

[NabakovNabakov]

I too am concerned by MoS's recent absence.

In the case of Kate, one thing that I found interesting is that she very rarely posted content in relation to the game at hand. The majority of her posts seemed to be tied up in various meta arguements on the pros and cons of claiming and lynching lurkers. This in itself is only slightly suspicious. I think many people are getting in a tizzy because she had a tendancy to support the side which is generally beleived to favor scum (not claiming, not lynching lurkers), but I think her tendancy to question common knowledge not to be extremely suspicious.

That said,

FOS: Kate

for not bothering to find out what common knowledge was, and lurking in plain sight by carrying on discussions meant for other threads.

[NabakovNabakov]

Bonus Post!

On vacation for the week (Sat-Sat). Access guaranteed, but opportunities to make use of it are not. Expect a couple short/sweet posts.

[dylan41985]

Hey all: I'm actually in the same boat as NabakovNabakov, except I'm not sure exactly how much I'll be able to post. Don't vote me out while I'm gone! haha

[Numenorean7]

I guess you do have a fair objection there. No one ever tried to explain WIFOM to you. I'm not really happy with the Wiki article. The beginning especially is rather unclear.

Here's an example of a WIFOM situation:

Scum are trying to decide who to night-kill. There is one player (call him X) who was onto one of the scum (call him Y), and had been pushing for his lynch. The scum don't want Y lynched, so they decide to get rid of X.
"But wait," one of them says, "If we kill X, everyone will know that Y is one of us, and he'll be lynched."
"Ah, yes," another one says, "But this town is pretty tricky. They'll see that X died and think that Y is an innocent townie we're trying to frame. Killing X would be the ideal way to defend Y."

So now answer this question. If the scum kill X, would a townie see Y as more likely or less likely to be scum because of it? In the end, it gives no meaningful information about Y's alignment. Herein lies the WIFOM dilemma. A phenomenon leads to a conclusion, but this conclusion would have been foreseen, so the opposite must be true, and so on ad infinitum.

Understand?