Mini 458 - Game over!

[Kate]

i don't really think scum would say they would kill themselves in 24 hours, however townies feeling under stress might, maybe he jst doesnt want to be lynched on day one and wants to get out of the game. But he could still be mafia trying to trick us into thinking he's a helpless town...i don't know

I don't like how it seems J-man keeps implying that he's a power role, even at one to lynch he said:

i am going to post my full defence in 6 hours time if still at -1 to lynch you guys better be sure this is what you want by then.

This is just stupid, it sounds like you're trying to sayyou're a power role or something and, like Adel said, blackmail the town.

the defence behind the hinting about a power role is this, i was hoping that you guys would move on with out moving to the point that if i was i would have to claim.

I don't like this, you keep pretending you're important to get votes off you, stupid newbie mistake maybe, but I think you've done it another time too.

[Kate]

I would like J-Man to claim.

This is really stupid, if he's a doc or cop, he might claim, if he's mafia, he'll still probably claim cop or doc, or claim vanilla, like he did. If he's a normal townie, he'll claim vanilla like he did.

So asking him to claim, we'll either get a doc, cop, or townie. But we'll actually never know, so what's the point?

Would you rather he be lynched without claiming? If claiming is really such a bad idea, why does it get done in every game on this site? Why has such a precedent been set if claiming is stupid?

Claiming does get done in...almost every game on this site, i don't think it's every, but they usually don't happen on the first day, the point is that it's stupid to put someone at -1, and say "I want you to claim". What if they're an innocent vanilla townie? They really can't claim then, what if they're mafia? they'll say they're townie, what if copor doc? they'll come out, but we won't get any info and they could die tonight.

What i'm saying, is that there's no point in

trying

to get people to claim on the 1st day.[/u]

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, you're asserting that nearly every game on this site lynches someone Day 1 without that person claiming? Or are you saying they always no lynch on the first day, so that no one has to claim? And if they no lynch, what makes Day 2 any different? You don't have any information from the lynch, and some people died.

Claiming has to be done to gain information on scummy players. If they are townie, they should claim townie, although there are other strategies that I won't go into at this time. If they are scum, they can fakeclaim whatever they like. We'll figure out soon enough if they're scum. If they're doc, they should probably claim something else. If they're cop, they might as well claim rather than be lynched, because the doc can protect them at night.

There is definitely a point in trying to get someone to claim on Day 1. If they are scummy and close to lynch, they should claim, so that we don't reach a lynch without hearing their claim.

[ThAdmiral]

Why? If you are doubtful, you should not be voting him when he is so closely to lynch. At the very least, unvote and FoS him, there is no protown reason to still be voting him if you are doubtful that he is scum.

Alright, settle down. Firstly I didn't think that he was in so much danger that an unvote was necessary, especially since you had just unvoted. I was actually interested in seeing if anyone else, say an anxious scum, wanted to jump on and put him back to -1 to try to push through a lynch. However, since I've now revealed my plan I might as well...

Unvote

I guess I also stayed on because I thought that even if he is town he's been playing badly, and I guess I just didn't feel like letting him off the hook so easily. Not a pro-town sentiment, perhaps, but it's how I felt. So, whatever.

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

I had another look at this and like it a lot. Looking forward to the response.

[Adel]

I'm taking a step back. My read on J-Man is still that he is unexperienced scum in a panic, if he bluffed twice, I don't know what would stop him from bluffing a third time since it seems to be his play style.

However,

TheAdmiral and MoS both seem pretty above board. At least one of them isn't scum- the odds of both of them being scum with J-man,

and

being on his bandwagon are awfully slim.

unvote:J-man

Placing pressure on pickemgenuis may be a good idea. He was active, and had several chances to join the bandwagon. If he is scum and J-man is town, then what would keep pickemgenius from joining the bandwagon, not as the hammer but before that? Scum-buddies already on the wagon. Alternatively, his actions make sense if both J-man and pickemgenuis are scum together. Good play would be preventing the lynch without associating too closely with his buddy, while still being in a position to be the hammer if the lynch appears inevitable.

I'll take a step back at this point. I am not confident of my ability to choose the correct course from here. Pressuring some lurkers into posting may be a good idea at some point in the future. Several players are at only 4 or 5 posts, and a couple of them were on the J-man wagon.

[Kate]

So, you're asserting that nearly every game on this site lynches someone Day 1 without that person claiming? Or are you saying they always no lynch on the first day, so that no one has to claim? And if they no lynch, what makes Day 2 any different? You don't have any information from the lynch, and some people died.

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to want to get someone to claim, I'm not saying anything about a no-lynch, no lynches are stupid, my point is that if you tell someone to claim, you're not going to get any info, at least none you're sure of, you actually said it yourelf, what i've been saying:

Claiming has to be done to gain information on scummy players. If they are townie, they should claim townie, although there are other strategies that I won't go into at this time. If they are scum, they can fakeclaim whatever they like. We'll figure out soon enough if they're scum. If they're doc, they should probably claim something else. If they're cop, they might as well claim rather than be lynched, because the doc can protect them at night.

I've been saying about what they'll claim the whole time, when they do claim, we won't know what they are, normal townies will claim townie, mafia will most likely claim normal townie, cop will claim cop, and doc will claim townie, so we know J-man, for instance, is either scum, a doc, or a regular townie. Tell me how this helped us.

[Adel]

Tell me how this helped us.

Increase in information. No more needs to be said.

[dylan41985]

unvote

[pickemgenius]

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

I just really didn't feel there was any case against J-man that warrented a lynch

I said that the case didn't exist? I'm pretty sure this is what you are talking about, and if we're reading the same thing, NOWHERE does it say that a case didn't exist, just no case that warrented a lynch.

There still is a case against him though, so he still needs to defend himself. Just because in my opinion it doesn't warrent a lynch, doesn't mean that he doesn't need to defend himself.

[ThAdmiral]

unvote

Because you agree with what others have said, or because it's just the cool thing to do now?

[Adel]

vote:dylan41985

I don't like the avatar, and I don't like the lurking.

[pickemgenius]

+ tack this on.


6 people obviously felt there was a case enough for a lynch.

I never saw the case, but 6 others did so it was there. So it was infact there. His almost failure to defend himself it why I started to get a scummy vibe.

I'll clear anything up if I/you see something weird

[Adel]

Repeated for emphasis:
In my opinion our initial objective should be to pressure all players into posting enough content that a reasonable case can be made against a couple players, and a reasonable case can be made for clearing the rest. So long as there is a player out there that I don't have enough information on to found an opinion upon, I'll refuse to extend that player the benefit of the doubt.

My wall of shame

Carrotcake: 7 posts, last post on Saturday

needs a prod

, has posted in other games as late as today, no content
DanMonkey: 4 posts, last post on Sunday, consistent with other games, almost needs a prod, no content.
dylan41985: 5 posts, last post today, made 10 other game posts today, was on J-man bandwagon, no content
fak: 4 posts, last post on Saturday

needs a prod

, made 11 posts in other games as late as Monday, was on J-man bandwagon, no content
molestargazer: 9 posts, last post on Sunday, almost needs a prod, only current game on mafiascum, very little content
Tromboner: 10 posts, last post on Tuesday, consistent with other games, was on J-man bandwagon. very little content

Note: I am human, and I make mistakes. If I made one, please point it out, and I'll apologize.

pickemgenius has plenty of posts, but they seem a little skimpy or wishy washy to me. Low content. He very nearly made the wall.

We have several town players who are hurting the town by not being active. If you want to win, start posting. About one post a day is considered polite, as is announcing if you are going to be gone for more than 48 hours. Start posting, and put some opinions in them. If you are town, you do not need to worry about a quick-lynch. Just be honest and open, and it will all work out just fine for us. Continued lurking will only hurt us.

Mod: Respectfully request a prod for Carrotcake and fak, and possibly for molestargazer and DanMonkey

[Per]

Vote Count (#6)

J-man: 2 (fak, Tromboner)
dylan41985: 2 (DanMonkey, Adel)
Tromboner: 1 (pickemgenius)
DanMonkey: 1 (Carrotcake)
Adel: 1 (Kate)
Mastermind of Sin: 1 (J-man)
pickemgenius: 1 (Mastermind of Sin)

Not voting: 3 (molestargazer, ThAdmiral, dylan41985)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Prod sent to fak and carrotcake.

I usually send a prod after 4 days of inactivity. These two players meet this criterion. Molestargazer and DanMonkey will meet it unless they post today or tomorrow (giving molestargazer some more lenience as he appears to have GCSE's).

[molestargazer]

:O
A wall of shame?
Let's post some content then. Exams sux, I'm sorry.

I'm going to get down to a re-read from say Page 5 Onwards, analyse things, comment - this may take a while, but I'll try and get it up ASAP.

[molestargazer]

Here's the page 5 analysis - I've not made a definite conclusion but it might give you something to discuss while I go through the rest.

Page 5:

Tromboner posts saying why he voted for me (Saying that I was another one getting votes at the time):

I re-voted for mole because he was the only other person to be getting votes; the only other person that could over take my rising lynch votes.

However i still think that J-man is in the mafia. His bit about wanting to be killed was very inviting. So ill try to get his bandwagon going.
Unvote
Vote: J-man

So you didn't think I was scum or didn't bother looking at the evidence, and just voted because other people were?
FoS: Tromboner

And I still haven't got an answer to this. On the next page Tromboner seemed to forget and move on.

Voting for lurkers is often a mafia strategy, as they know that they only have to post enough to not be classified lurkers.
It also means that the person killed doesn't provide the town with much information, as he probably didn't get on enough to accuse people etc.

So what is your prescribed course of action? Target those who chase lurkers? Ignore lurkers as if they aren't in the game?

In my opinion our initial objective should be to pressure all players into posting enough content that a reasonable case can be made against a couple players, and a reasonable case can be made for clearing the rest. So long as there is a player out there that I don't have enough information on to found an opinion upon, I'll refuse to extend that player the benefit of the doubt.

In my opinion, neither of Adel or ThAdmiral are in the wrong there - I agree that it may be a potential mafia strategy, but as of right now I don't think we can place votes based solely upon that theory.

joining a bandwagon vote may seem suspicious, but it's too obvious! I'm not that dumb.

WIFOM. Please provide a better rationale.

Dylan's only post after that was page 8, and that was clearly to unvote. I'd like Adel's request to be fulfilled, we need every hint we can get.

lol you know what no1 ever likes my posts speccially mafia.. oooohhh
Tomboner i hope you die you mafia scum

Little of no content apart from an OMGUS accusation. That sucks.

So J-man now has 5 votes, with seven to lynch...great idea town! put him in a position where mafia can easily kill him!

I don't like this bit of Kate's post. We're voting because we think he's scum, here you've obviously not looked at the evidence and called out the votings just because 'the mafia could pick him off'. This seems to be a very minor scumtell in my opinion.

Especially since J-man was the biggest promoter of a pro-town tactic that would quickly identify dylan41985 as potential scum. If dylan was scum planning on lurking into day 2 and beyond, a bandwagon on J-man would provide his best cover... so when J-man identifies him as a lurker is would seem OMGUSy.

Huh. I just sold myself on that theory.

unvote:molestargazer

vote:dylan41985for lurking and casting a suspect vote.

This was right after pickemgenius said something about dylan. And Adel's reasoning didn't seem very good, it seems to me he keeps saying people are scum because of what they will do in the future; that doesn't count as proof. However, what what's-his-face(dylan-something) did was pretty scummy, the way he just dropped in and voted without much reasoning, but I still think Adel is more scum.

Vote:Adel

This post seems very, very confusing and almost opinion-switching one sentence after the other. It might just be badly worded - the point I can find in there seems OK. This could be much better worded, it would also help to protect against mistaken votes and FoSes.

So how will you know whether he's town or not? If he is town, he'll most likely defend himself or say, "Hey, kill me if you want but I hope you all die!", if he's mafia, he'll probably do the same, unless he decides to fake claim as cop or doc, but if he were the cop or doc, he would still claim.

WIFOM, in my humble opinion.

[Adel]

Good luck on your exams. I understand that they're more important- and it speaks to your favor that you aren't posting in other games while ignoring this one.

[Adel]

EBWOP:good posting; thanks for making the time!

[Kate]

ok, i read wat WIFOM means, thanks to Adel, but its used SO much, but still don't really know what the heck anyone's talking about

So how will you know whether he's town or not? If he is town, he'll most likely defend himself or say, "Hey, kill me if you want but I hope you all die!", if he's mafia, he'll probably do the same, unless he decides to fake claim as cop or doc, but if he were the cop or doc, he would still claim.

WIFOM, in my humble opinion.

So are you saying i wrote this when i was drunk or something? My point is that we'll never know wat he is by forcing him to claim, he might be lying, he might be telling the truth, i've been saying this over and over again, but apparently no one's listening.

Tell me how this helped us.

Increase in information. No more needs to be said.

Maybe you didn't understand when i said

tell me

how this helped us...

[molestargazer]

Good luck on your exams. I understand that they're more important- and it speaks to your favor that you aren't posting in other games while ignoring this one.

Thank you.
I'm only taking a few this year, one German GCSE, a few half-GCSEs, a few modular ones, etc. but they still take revision - last one on Monday, then I'll be able to contribute more.

ok, i read wat WIFOM means, thanks to Adel, but its used SO much, but still don't really know what the heck anyone's talking about

Put simply, WIFOM is where your argument consists of "Well, the mafia could do this, or they could do this..." like a sort of dilemma as to who to pick to lynch.

So are you saying i wrote this when i was drunk or something? My point is that we'll never know wat he is by forcing him to claim, he might be lying, he might be telling the truth, i've been saying this over and over again, but apparently no one's listening.

Woah, calm down - no need to get so defensive. Now then, wasn't it easier to put it that way? That sounds much less like WIFOM, and your point is fair enough - but it gets us no further in our discussion.

[molestargazer]

Page 6:

now i was really tempted to claim cop/doc just to make you guys squirm because i know that since i am a vannilla townie i really dont have a whole lot of use to you guys, i mean kill me if you will althought esspeccially this early in day 1 its not a good idea (and yes nomatter how many pages we have turned there really isnt any info that has been gleaned)

my eyes are on dylan pickem, and the admiral and i think i shall FOS:MoS
from left to right is where my suspisions lie, i shall clarify and defend myself at a later date bit of a time crunch for now

Oh dear. This post reeks of scum so much, I need to go get some deodrant.
First of all, you say you'd rather claim a power role falsely, get yourself nightkilled, when you're just a townie.. just to confuse the town even more and 'make us squirm'?
You don't have a use as Vanilla Townie? There's going to be a lot of Vanilla Townies in this game, if they all got themselves killed for that reason, mafia would win - you can't just give in because you're not a power role.
Kill you? Appealing to emotion, and you don't actually defend yourself and tell us why you shouldn't be killed.
Any reasons for those suspicions and FoSing MoS?
You shall defend yourself at a later date? That seems like trying to shift attention onto someone else and using almost a delaying tactic to try and explain your previous actions - which going from this post, aren't good.

If claiming is protown, then we shouldn't have to apply the pressure of a lynch for power roles to claim.

I don't really agree with this. We need pressure, as claiming without pressure is unneeded, and could create major problems for power roles. I think people shouldn't claim unless at Lynch -a few and if asked for.

Question for entire town: J-man claimed vanilla, do you believe him?

I can't really accurately answer that without an entire re-read looking at his posts - right now, I can't be bothered - but based on the post I've seen, no.

This is really stupid, if he's a doc or cop, he might claim, if he's mafia, he'll still probably claim cop or doc, or claim vanilla, like he did. If he's a normal townie, he'll claim vanilla like he did.

Um.. what?

I don't know if I believe him, he's either scum, or an innocent townie.

Well, that narrows it down..

No i think that he is the cop/doc but doesn't want to revel that to the mafia who he really is.

From what I've seen previously, Tromboner wanted a J-man lynch - suddenly defending him now and saying you think he's doc/cop..?

so for serious my FOS on MoS was kinda a jibe not really all that serious and yes that whole post was oozing OMGUS. ( i guess it would be OMGIS but w/e)

Um.. what?

but returning to the FOS on MoS i am going to readdress the situation from a new angle, and Unvote Vote:Mastermind of Sin now that my folks is because of his actual push for a lynch and as Adel has said its really not a good idea to lynch this early.

Now would you say that if it was

me

in that position?

I say pretty much ignore lurkers for now. They aren't harming the game as much as they would later, and either they will start playing the game or be replaced.

And yet the whole point we are talking about lurking as that it could be a scum tactic?

I was hoping that J-man would argue his way out of his wagon without resorting to a claim, for the reasons I stated above. He has failed so far. My read is inexperienced scum. unvote vote: J-man

Note: J-Man is at -1 to lynch! No one vote for him without a dang good reason!

The pressure is on now. J-man: why are you not scum? What have you done that is pro-town? Who is a better candidate for scum than you? What have they done that is anti-town?

Exactly my thoughts as I read this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So, you're asserting that nearly every game on this site lynches someone Day 1 without that person claiming? Or are you saying they always no lynch on the first day, so that no one has to claim? And if they no lynch, what makes Day 2 any different? You don't have any information from the lynch, and some people died.

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to want to get someone to claim, I'm not saying anything about a no-lynch, no lynches are stupid, my point is that if you tell someone to claim, you're not going to get any info, at least none you're sure of, you actually said it yourelf, what i've been saying:

Claiming has to be done to gain information on scummy players. If they are townie, they should claim townie, although there are other strategies that I won't go into at this time. If they are scum, they can fakeclaim whatever they like. We'll figure out soon enough if they're scum. If they're doc, they should probably claim something else. If they're cop, they might as well claim rather than be lynched, because the doc can protect them at night.

I've been saying about what they'll claim the whole time, when they do claim, we won't know what they are, normal townies will claim townie, mafia will most likely claim normal townie, cop will claim cop, and doc will claim townie, so we know J-man, for instance, is either scum, a doc, or a regular townie. Tell me how this helped us.

First off, cop/doc/scum/townie are not necessarily the only roles I have. I just used them as examples because you did. Secondly, we gain information. We can see if his actions fit with the role he's had, we can decide if we think the possibility of his role being useful outweighs leaving him alive if he is scum. We gain a lot of things from a claim.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, if there wasn't a case worth lynching J-man over, why did you say he needed to defend himself? If there is not a case, there is nothing worth defending against. In addition, you said you

found him scummy because he didn't defend against a case for lynching him that you claim didn't exist.

I just really didn't feel there was any case against J-man that warrented a lynch

I said that the case didn't exist? I'm pretty sure this is what you are talking about, and if we're reading the same thing, NOWHERE does it say that a case didn't exist, just no case that warrented a lynch.

There still is a case against him though, so he still needs to defend himself. Just because in my opinion it doesn't warrent a lynch, doesn't mean that he doesn't need to defend himself.

Like I said earlier, he's already defended himself against what case there was. Therefore, if you say he hasn't defended himself, you must be referring to another case that none of us know about, which would've been enough to lynch him, combined with other actions. But you said there wasn't enough of a case to lynch him.

[Kate]

First off, cop/doc/scum/townie are not necessarily the only roles I have. I just used them as examples because you did. Secondly, we gain information. We can see if his actions fit with the role he's had, we can decide if we think the possibility of his role being useful outweighs leaving him alive if he is scum. We gain a lot of things from a claim.

You can gain alot of things from a claim, but people lie in this game. People lie and it's alot harder to tell when they are and when they aren't. You're not playing with them face-to-face, so it's alot easier for them to lie and you believe them, or for you to not believe them and lynch wrong. So really, you don't always gain things from a claim.

[pickemgenius]

Like I said earlier, he's already defended himself against what case there was. Therefore, if you say he hasn't defended himself, you must be referring to another case that none of us know about, which would've been enough to lynch him, combined with other actions. But you said there wasn't enough of a case to lynch him.

I still am not quite sure

well i can see that you guys are quite intent on killing me and ive spent a hour and a bit reading the posts over and trying to figure out a airtight argument that i could use in my defence, mabye its because of inexpierence that i cant find one but in any case im pretty sure that my defence is already stated

and if there is another out there that thinks i am mafia... well then i cant do a whole lot to stop you.

the defence behind the hinting about a power role is this, i was hoping that you guys would move on with out moving to the point that if i was i would have to claim.

qualifies much for a defense. Still.

The afformentioned scummy vibes i've recently got is that in my first game ever (Newbie 334) one of the scum didn't post a defense for himself, and only listed a suspicion list. So it's

almost

like deja-vu, with a different person.

That's my basic case against him. It for sure isn't hidden.