NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

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hi guys

-f

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Vote: Goodmorning

I think the whole ISO blather is pure town sounding lies.

I like the Geist push but imagine Nacho may want to say something about it to me, and he's being a lurksack right now. And he was supposed to be the posting head here, so...yeah.
As a random note - I refuse to sign anything, if you can't tell the difference between Nacho and me I don't care, read us as a single entity anyway, that's how a hydra works last I checked.

I have FF, Stuffed, and Generic as town.
Reads may adjust as we combine them, or maybe Nacho will sheep me - you'll have to wait and see.

Here's my application to the town block also:

You're allowed to sheep me.
-Casso.

Done!

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I wonder if my rants will be as effective with that seal face staring out at everyone.

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Nacho, can we make a truce until day 3? Best friends: neither of us suspects the other until day 3, we don't kill each other until day 3 if scum (or at least fight hard for an alternate kill if they really want to kill our slots that badly), we don't play dirty with power roles until day 3. I think it will be most to our benefit if we are both town, but if one of us is scum, I think it will work to the townie's benefit. Do you agree?

I accept!

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F-0 is scum too.

Casso and I agree that your push here was pretty sad. It saddens me because your reaction to it is the complete opposite to my reaction, and it saddens my lovely bearded partner because you didn't drop your RVS push for something better when you found it.

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Nope. I only have a tablet.

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You're scum doing this with only your best intentions in mind. It's anti-town. You need rope, but I'm already voting my other scum-read.

How is it antitown? The plan essentially gives him three days freedom as scum. This freedom is also time that I'm left alive to rampage all over the scumteam in typical Nacho fashion when he could instead just dodge me for a day and kill me in a night. He has also demonstrated the capacity to read me pretty fucking well based on the past few times we've played together, so it makes sense he would want to buy extra time to figure me out (considering he tends to be a kill priority for scum-Nacho).

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Calm your horses generic, still reading.

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Just to let everyone know this game is a town win.

I was hoping you drew scum

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Brian Skies is town.
geists is town.
F16 is town.
Generic is town.

Discuss.

Why geists and Brian town at this point?

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Thor liked MC's opening but it wasn't actually that great.

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So, the first person to correctly guess what I imagine empires reaction was when he saw what random.org assigned me gets a special super secret^tm prize.

I'd appreciate the guesses in gifs by the way!

VOTE: casso king of the seals

Two quote stripers is not better than one:(

He was probably looking forward to seeing your emotional breakdown in the scum QT when I nailed the hell out of you, then had his hopes dashed when he saw you rolled town. I told him to give you scum regardless of what the numbers said but empires a better man than I am I guess

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vote tammy

Because she hates me.

How many times do I have to tell you I don't hate you.

I've gotten aggravated with you, but if you can find one person on this site I haven't gotten aggravated with, I'll bake you cookies. ( that kinda makes me feel like a bitch saying that actually when I'm just really a fucking sweetheart who has a tendency to get a tad emotional)

You've never been even mildly aggravated with me!

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Oh wait wait wait golden quote from hydra QT (paraphrased, of course): "Tammy vote on us is probably just because she wants attention". This is going to be an amazing game.

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pedit3: Ceph, don't believe in yourself, believe in me who believes in you.

Maybe I can do that. We'll see.

This is also my shtick

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Oh hell you drew scum.

VOTE: Casso

Nope!

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Where are my off notes?

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Oh boy, Ms Marangal has arrived.

How long will it take her to stop voting me this time?

Maybe, if you learned how to make yourself Obv town, I wouldn't be voting you!

If I ever obvtown this early, I'm probably scum.

It's like you forget about the past every time I start another game with you.

This felt town.

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Where are my off notes?

Your focus on Brian.

What about it?

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I liked Mara's early push on Cephrir. The target in and of itself isn't really that special, but the way she went about it seemed good to me (mostly the whole gearing up for a push and then completely letting it go part, that felt nice). So generic, if you're getting an early townread on Mara based on her initial posting, we're probably in agreement.

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Specifically I'm seeing parallels with how in Buzzword you jumped on the weakness in orcinus' entrance and encouraged/supported others' reads. At least with orcinus it was a genuinely off entrance. Brian's initial posts almost always look strained and uncomfortable.

I don't think Brian has a tendency to look weak early game. I thought there was clear motivation in F-16s opening to stay alive to sort out Nacho-scum, and I thought that it was strange Brian immediately attacked that, especially considering the mentor mentee game that recently ended which proves F-16 can read me pretty competently.

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I liked Mara's early push on Cephrir. The target in and of itself isn't really that special, but the way she went about it seemed good to me (mostly the whole gearing up for a push and then completely letting it go part, that felt nice). So generic, if you're getting an early townread on Mara based on her initial posting, we're probably in agreement.

You actually need mara's posts to read them?

Yes? Cabd forming a town block with himself in the center early game doesn't exactly seem like something that's unlikely to be coming from Cabd-scum. Why do you disagree?

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I also didn't have a good townread on BRO until about two pages ago. What do you think of that?

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Cabd, my application to the town block will come in two parts.

1. Ffery. Let's make the same deal that F-16 and I made, minus the suspecting part.

2. VOTE: Pitoli

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Brian Skies is town.
geists is town.
F16 is town.
Generic is town.

Discuss.

Why geists and Brian town at this point?

I think I've since explained this adequately, but why didn't you ask me why I thought Generic was town? I have not explained that adequately to date, and in fact it was so weak that I no longer feel that way.

I asked you about geists because normally ffery paranoia is your thing.
I asked you about Brian because the read required him not picking up on F-16 town, which seemed strange.
I didn't ask you about Generic town because your answer wouldn't figure into my read on him much/help me out with my read on you at all, but I probably should have. Why generic town and why don't you feel that way anymore?

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I also didn't have a good townread on BRO until about two pages ago. What do you think of that?

I think Bro reads deserve caution, but I dunno. Maybe I'm seeing stuff you aren't, or vice versa. With town-Nacho, you're usually ahead of me on reads.

I still think BRO deserves caution, but his "meh I fucking suck at large games" seemed a lot more honest than any BROscum play that I've seen. It's more about what he's not doing than what he is doing!

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Specifically I'm seeing parallels with how in Buzzword you jumped on the weakness in orcinus' entrance and encouraged/supported others' reads. At least with orcinus it was a genuinely off entrance. Brian's initial posts almost always look strained and uncomfortable.

I don't think Brian has a tendency to look weak early game. I thought there was clear motivation in F-16s opening to stay alive to sort out Nacho-scum, and I thought that it was strange Brian immediately attacked that, especially considering the mentor mentee game that recently ended which proves F-16 can read me pretty competently.

And didn't you get some questions about the original offer in the hunterxhunterx game?

I didn't question it in thread, but I damn sure got buldermar's take on it in our hydra discussions.

Probably. But I'm assuming the people who questioned me were simply bad at gambits; I would expect Brian to see exactly where F-16 was coming from.

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And note: Brian didn't question, he attacked.

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1. Ffery. Let's make the same deal that F-16 and I made, minus the suspecting part.

These deals are just really, really odd.

What's odd about them?

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Swapping into Thor translation for a little while, got to go soon. If you want to discuss today, discuss quickly.

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The big push Thor wants is good morning. He thinks that needing to ISO to get reads sucks, especially since it was less than 24 hours from when the thread first opened. The rest of posts were a bunch of nothing. I mostly agree with this read, but found pitoli posting a little more interesting, considering good morning has slow starts and pitoli has been making improvements in her play lately that suggest her town game is getting more obvtown early.

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Hiatus good enough?

Hiatus not needed; that was the part of the deal that didn't apply to us.

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Greetings,

Nacho's desire to get into a hydra with me when I *specifically* discuss about the entire concept of my hopes for a hydra being that someone is the posting head and I just get to spew thoughts into a QT is not really amusing to me at this stage.

He's not even doing a good job expressing my thoughts and outrage, in my opinion. Probably because he's convinced he has to paraphrase from a ruddy Hydra QT - which literally makes no sense, copypasta that gak, Nach!

I see people say they can have trouble reading Nach and then admit I'm in the mix and are wondering about reading me... ::insert noise of a back of throat chuckle mixed with a smirk::

In OTHER news!

Let's hit these strokes which Nacho didn't convey for me due to general suckage;

You can tell Geist Thor thinks his push is silly.

You mentioned Brian no more or less than Tammy or Ceph during your posting catchup. It's skeevy to isolate one and try to paint it as an attempt to push a weak player when;

1. We're voting elsewhere.
2. We are mentioning multiple other players as much or more.
3. I wasn't even aware Brian was the easy mislynch that everyone is frothing about.

Seriously, what is this?
I already think your silly backside is scummy and THIS is your big push on our slot? Color me un-ruddy-impressed.
Get to justifying this gak right now.

I don't like how Tammy is getting into a fight with half a hydra's head, and then the other head is like 'I know what Head 1 is doing, I'mma sit back!' and Tammy just keeps punching as though he said nothing...makes it feel fake to me, like she realizes she's supposed to put on a show and is doing what is expected of her.

She's fake playing to her town meta, is what I'm saying.

I wanna get this one out here too. What was that gak Tammy? WHile we're at it, MC can help further justify it as well since apparently it was a major town read in their mind while looking immensely fake to me.
She even basically calmed down in like thirty seconds. It felt VERY fake.
Justify pl0x!
Links to blow ups that look of similar "Realness" to this one as a counterpoint would be awesome.
I don't recall Tammy ever blowing up like that and then going insta-calm in anything I've seen her in though.

Your seemingly-blank-looking-null read on Casso doesn't help anyone either ♫

Have...you even offered a read on this slot? Y'know, as long as you're complaining others haven't?

it seems really weird considering he hadn't included pitoli in his reads list wall before then.

Um...literally the only list we'd made prior to this was one I made.
And it was a town list.
So...whut?

@Goodmorning - I look forward to hearing all your thoughts from your last iso read, and am prepared to wait a few days/weeks for you to catchup and then do an additional iso read, I bet it will be revealing. I'll admit what I expect to be revealed is that you are scum, but I'm a touch the pessimist at heart.

At this stage of the game I'm bored enough to pretty much vote whomever if other players would just ruddy get their act together enough to actually agree on someone to push. I think THIS SLOT might be the biggest unified push to date, and we have like two votes on us. It's pretty obnoxious.

Some people should vote Pitoli or GM or Geist or BBQ or Tammy or something. I'll be there for you, heck, I'd even yell down Nacho on Tammy and push it to L-1 if it just meant an L-1 would happen prior to page 40 of this game.

@Falcon - sheep me.
@Desp - if you don't wanna read, sheep me.
@KoreanBBQ - I think you look scummy, sheep me.
@Domo - SHEEP!
@MafiaSSK - I have cookies, sheep me.
@Tammy - I have Nachos, sheep me.

Don't make me have to become the active head out of rage and boredom, I'll do it.

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Unvote: Pitoli
Vote: KoreanBBQ

Wagon, wagon, wagon!

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@Sakura - sheep me and vote your gut town read anyway.

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Your seemingly-blank-looking-null read on Casso doesn't help anyone either ♫

Have...you even offered a read on this slot? Y'know, as long as you're complaining others haven't?

Hey, ScumBBQ, whassup?

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@Sakura - I presume you mean the "accusing someone of being agreeable while being agreeable themselves" bit?

I can't tell you Nacho's thoughts because he is generally failing, albeit maybe due to weekend, but he will probably supply them when he shows up again, and if he doesn't remind me and we'll slap him and then he will.

I find the tell...okay. I've mostly given up on hypocrisy as a tell since town are hypocritical all the time. I've seen lurkers make lurk scum cases while being town and lurky...meh. Also, to a certain extent, whether or not you might think someone else being agreeable is scummy doesn't mean you consider being agreeable a scumtell, it might just be in that situation and/or with that player. Looking at what Falcon is calling out, I certainly agree that it felt almost overly affable - certainly more so than anything I'd do during a push. I'll admit I'm not sure what over-affability you're really seeing from Falcon, but if it's there then, yeah, sure, hypocrisy.

In a general sense I've found his slot town-ish. I'd certainly vote him at this stage if he actually garnered some real traction, but I'd consider it akin to a policy lynch and would contentedly abandon it if it slowed or I got bored.

@DOMO - you are full of fail and make baby seals cry!

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@DOMO - also, you are slowing and examinging a fearsome wagon of...four voters! GAH! Hatred!

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Though, I guess it *is* the biggest wagon of the ruddy game, so, yeah, let's slow down for fifteen pages to go over it for a while and then we can try a five vote wagon to shake things up.

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@DOMO - if she was buddying anyone she was buddying me, what the frell?

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@DOMO - also, you are slowing and examinging a fearsome wagon of...four voters! GAH! Hatred!

Seven, actually. Having been accustomed to 7 votes d1 lynch, I thought I got quicklynched for a second so I checked the votes.

Actually yeah, that was bigger than I thought, I am pleased.

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Hey thor why don't you talk about what you loved about my opening?

I never said I loved your opening, I said I liked it.
I liked that you came in and attacked and prodded multiple players at a stage of the game people were being lazy and slow in getting things moving.
I also said I liked that Falcon attacked you for it, so don't start sending me any candy hearts anytime soon.

Why would you think this? I might not be right, but I'm getting reads from my interactions with people. My reads are developing all the time and as such I feel like I'm doing the opposite of fail. That's not to say my reads are right, I'm saying I'm happy with my progress. If you're not, tough luck.

I never suggested your reads were good/bad/indifferent so don't get bent out of shape for something I didn't say.
I *did* suggest it was uncool to derail as soon as it appeared some actual momentum shift and vote movement, because looking at that vote count this game desperately needs a serious wagon and a serious counter about twenty posts ago.

I'm not though, because I think I'm actually quite satisfied with my play right now despite the slow starting.

You have barely managed to present reads on a thirty page game while being snarky at others having the same issue. I can't imagine it should surprise you that people have issues with that.

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@DOMO - I agree if he's town that there are scum on that wagon in general.

I disagree that, if you really wanted a wagon to analyze, you should have removed yourself so quickly. You should have sat there and seen who *else* got on and for what reasons, and also which people from the RVS stage of the wagon chose to stay and which fled, and also could have seen who, if anyone, stepped up to defend him and/or start a counter.

Instead you want to examine a flash that wasn't even done flashing.

To my mind it's like reading half of a book and then wanting to discuss the ending. It doesn't really make sense to me nor do I think intelligent discussion can be had at that stage.

And this is Nacho.

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You didn't ask for a read explanation.
You chided them for leaving someone as null and said it was unhelpful.

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[sarcasm]And this is Nacho.[/sarcasm]

Allow me to clarify something for you guys.

I sorta thought that I'd mocked him for about three straight posts and then kept going on about the same stuff for further posts would have sorta clarified that he hadn't magically shown up and taken over.

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You didn't ask for a read explanation.
You chided them for leaving someone as null and said it was unhelpful.

And there was the "aka" part with the parenthesis, which was me asking why he had you as null.

Why does anyone ever have anyone as 'null'?
That's a joke question.

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And this is Nacho.

Hello Thor.

I know, right?

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Idgi

Pick a player in this game you have a null read on and describe why you have a null read on them.

Then pick a second null read and do the same.

Then tell me the difference between the two cases.

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Also, before I leave, true story, I have debated doing this as my initial post in a game;

[sarcasm]

When people eventually ask me about it I'll tell them they need to wait till endgame for me to close the tag.

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Interesting things:

On this, I'm trying to get nacho head to engage with me cos I've had arguements with him when he's been town and scum but he dismissed an interaction in tv our of catching up and then got arguing with geists.

I would love to have this dance, Generic.

It's antitown because it works in his favor if he's scum, which you pretty much outlined. You know you're a popular target for a NK. If he's scum, then why wouldn't he bribe you into an early truce so he can get rid of you before he's put into any real danger?

I know I've said this before, but to me, Mafia is a game about distrust and deceit. Treating someone as functionally conftown for X amount of time without actually sorting them just rubs me the wrong way. You also know that I don't like buddying, so I don't know where this is coming from.

This is good.
So, the original reason why I offered the deal to buldermar and buldermar specifically is because buldermar struck me as the type of player who wouldn't back off from a challenge when it didn't directly conflict with his win condition. One of the markers of having good scumplay is the freedom to kill a variety of threats. When there is a player who has such a meta angle on you that you HAVE to kill them, then this is a giant glaring flaw in your play that needs serious, serious work. When a townie makes this offer to a scum player, it's an attack on ego, not on honor. I appreciated the offer because I am not a significant meta threat to F-16 scum. I can read him, but the rift between his town game and his scum game is large enough where I'm not even close to a person with meta authority on him and he realizes that. But he's been getting closer to figuring me out, just needs time to do it. The offer gives him that time. Do you see where I'm coming from with this?

If he's scum, why would you expect him to follow through on this?

Explained above!

Why would you want a scumwin?

It wouldn't be a scumwin. The next thing on my mafia bucket list is to break your streak when we are on different sides.

1) You're scum.
2) I'm crazy.
3) Both

You're closer to naive than crazy.

I don't like how you're hiding behind a single comment to justify reading me, then throwing out some high-level "What he's not doing indicates he's town" reasoning without substantiating what those markers are. It makes it look like you're setting up for a potential "gotcha" moment on me that people'll trust because of your authority/experience with me.

What impresses me about your scumplay is that you always manage to find something to do early on and generally don't have slow starts. Large Normal? Nope. Touhou? Nope. Xeno1? Nope. Here, you begin with a strong townread and then go "welp, I have no idea what's what" which seemed genuine because I know you have no problem faking those things as scum.

I found things to be incredibly lacking in the "things happening" department and got bored about 10 pages ago.

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Nacho, I'm afraid at present that dance is on hold, because I hadn't factored in that a large game will mean more arguements... For me.

However, one thing I would like to pull you up on, you have barely commented on anything I have posted in this game, and that sing like you at all. What gives? Can't imagine the all mighty nachomamma is scared of me...

I have made essentially two posts this game, Generic.

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No. It will change when Thor and I find a little more common ground.

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Nacho, I'm afraid at present that dance is on hold, because I hadn't factored in that a large game will mean more arguements... For me.

However, one thing I would like to pull you up on, you have barely commented on anything I have posted in this game, and that sing like you at all. What gives? Can't imagine the all mighty nachomamma is scared of me...

I have made essentially two posts this game, Generic.

Well how am I supposed to fucking know? You don't sign your posts so therefore you are treated as a single entity.

I have noticed a few times players fluff posting their guesses on who is posting in the hydra, it has been noted as I go.

Thor signs his posts or makes it extraordinarily obvious it is him.

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How do you feel about SSK?

He seems like a good choice for common ground. Does Nati have a read on him yet?

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OK HERE GOES THE CATCHUP~~~

bro is scum guys let's go!

IF bro is scum, he's playing nothing like his 165 or xenoblade self. He's also put himself into a position where he's dead meat if he's scum.

Can you explain what you mean here?

So my brain feels like its half broken so
How many posts of SC was Varsoon?
If there was more than one of his posts, im voting him.

stop pretending like you didn't know it was me, and not varsoon.

generic is town i think. I'm happy to say that for now. #294 sealed it for me.

@Casso

- thor in particular here, why did you townread us early on in 306?

I also didn't have a good townread on BRO until about two pages ago. What do you think of that?

I think it's strange given your #335. whats up with that?

this is all i can manage because this fucking computer is horrendously slow. like it's being run by fucking hamsters.

this was Mac. have a nice day. x

Thor townread you by #305 because he felt you were the only person to do something significant in the game so far because you had a suspect, called him scum, and pushed it. No one else did that by that point in the game.

My #335 was probably expressing concern with how quickly BRO had crept up in a couple of townreads, but I didn't see anything big in BRO ISO until he said he had no idea what he was doing. That seemed unlikely based on NY whatever and touhou.

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I panicked hard because I thought I didn't get a birdie. 7 in a row!

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I'm feeling pretty nervous, myself, for someone who's pretty happy with my townbloc so far.

I don't like the BBQ wagon. I don't like Nacho. We're 40 pages in and he doesn't know who he wants to push instead.

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to be directionless at this point in the game. There has been a lot of town pieces of the game, but not a lot of missteps by scum. Its also taken a while for the town block to actually get formed this game.

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so how do you all like the chance zmuffin inadvertently scumslipped while trying to troll me?

bc I've still been thinking about this

depends if you're town

and how if you think about it long enough it makes no sense at all if zmuffin is really town. if he's town then it'll be easier for me if I townread him regardless of if I'm town or scum. what the hell

I don't know what he was trying to say with that but I'm not exactly optimistic about catching muffin scum based on a scum slip.

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You're closer to naive than crazy.

This implies that you picked up on the same thing that I did and think it's fake.

Why would scum-cabd open the way he did. There's enough of us here that more than one or two of us would catch what he did, so if he's scum faking it would be glaringly obvious later.

I didn't actually catch onto the same thing as you did, it seems.

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vote sakura

I had the opposite reaction to this.

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I was feeling uncomfortable with cephrir based on the confidence in his stuffed crust push until I found this post.

Scum would feel good about planting a vote on a townie, especially when said townie has exposed them but isn't credible enough to get others to listen.
That way, when I'm lynched, everyone can write me off, and scum gets a free pass into the future.
That's why scum would push my lynch and feel confident in it.
Makes plenty of sense.

-V

Even if I was scum, you wouldn't have exposed shit. All you've done is OMGUS me.

Oh, I always feel good about my votes on town when I'm scum, but such is not the case, and I feel far better about voting scum as town. Because it's harder and I rarely do it. It's a unique experience for me! Especially if I'm there for the catching rather than jumping on later. DOn't think that's actually ever happened.

VOTE: sc

We should probably lynch this today

Whaddya know, Cephrir is bandwagon hopping.

Whaddaya know, SSK is posturing to suspect me later.

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Varsoon what the hell

what happened to all your excitement about wanting to play more games with me sometime? you see I'm in this game and the only thing you have to say in response is it's really cute to see me voting you again? that seems really sketchy

you've made your point that I might be scum because of lack of activity compared to others, countered it by saying it's actually the same. are we still scum despite your findings?

your activity is the same but Varsoon's still wasn't. while your activity being the same counters my point about your activity, I still think it's kinda telling how Varsoon was posting elsewhere but not in here.

vote:SC

I assume this is GIF right

Probably not.

Perot: good!

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Town:

1. Tammy - More mara's read than mine.
2. geists (fferyllt + Natirasha) -mostly cabd head; you should be ashamed I beat you to a reads list.
4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) oh hey these scumfucks snuck into my townblock?
13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - mara's read
11. BROseidon - I have my reasons
10. pieguyn - you're not nearly as innocent child status as i'd like though
19. Cephrir - Mara has him down as super duper town
18. DOMO - Meta; being scum with him in 165

Meh:

6. Generic- not as obvtown as I would have hoped, will make mara sort later
9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) - Half of varsoon's shit has pinged me, I dunno.
8. MafiaSSK - the higher level of activity here as opposed to his past town games makes me wonder things.
15. Sakura Hana - Do something super town so I can put you up a rank please.
17. zMuffinMan- I can't read you for shit so I guess I'll just have to wait and see; nothing jumps out so far.

Not so Town:

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - Mara disagrees slightly
12. Brian Skies - The dismal amount of effort you're bringing here scares me.
20. Desperado - I'm not seeing the OMG PASSION town desp brings to games. I see "meh make a few posts" then coasting from the Atlantic to the Pacific
5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - the lack of effort here is surprising me and actually kind of making me sad, worried the fuck out of me

In this game?

7. roflcopter - Bitching about large amounts of posts when that's how some players read each other won't get you anywhere
14. goodmorning - START DOING SHIT LIKE OMG
16. pitoli - SEE GOODMORNING

...?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Laptop died and I'm posting on a crappy netbook so this is not going to be as detailed as I'd otherwise make it.

At the time when Nati and I first started to feel suspicious of Nacho it was for a bunch of reasons, none of which was really a clincher but together make a constellation that we feel is trouble.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

We don't like how he seems to be currying favor with players rather than sorting them

We don't like the pitoli vote and especially don't like its timing. It came off like he was trying to deflect attention after we first went after him.

We don't like how he tried to push the non-aggression pact on us.

We don't like the whole tone of the exchange with Brian. The whole tone of that sounded off.

And we found Thor's posts pretty damn close to null content.

And finally, we don't like that when we asked him what he thought about SSK, he said that he was thinking about moving his vote there if Thor agrees. That was off for two reasons: the assumption that we were scumreading, not trying to sort SSK, and because he deferred the decision waiting for a catch up. That's not something he typically does as a hydra.

-I am picking up on less crumbs than I normally would because iPad. I also don't think that's a scumtell for me.

-I am currently considering going back to the Pitoli vote. The timing coincided more with my entrance in thread than your suspicion of me, though.

-Why not? The only advantage it offers me as scum is the towncred. I offered it originally because I thought Cabd would appreciate the gesture, but he apparently didn't get it.

-don't understand where tone was off there.

-I thought Nati was scumreading SSK and I was pretty ready to move forward on that. I'm no better at sorting him than ffery is and so thought the method of approach to him this game was to leave him in Nati hands. You are correct that I usually don't wait to sync up as a hydra. Thor is not my usual hydra partner; my usual hydra partner is someone like you or GiF who can see why I'm thinking what I'm thinking and doesn't diverge on my most basic of reads. There are other hydrate where i take primary control and thus don't differ much from my usual play. Then there are hydrate like Majiffy where our approaches differ in a way where my play needs to change significantly. With him, I tend to exert my personality over his since my reads are superior to his, hence Vegito and ridiculous aggression. With Thor, the biggest thing I want this hydra to give me is a greater understanding of him and for him to understand these pieces of our meta a little more. I don't think playing in the usual way will help me with that, and am much more comfortable with waiting for him than I am not waiting for him.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Do we really have to post walls and put a question mark up to make it look like you're scumhunting? This is bullshit.

I like ffery's post on casso, and this flurry of activity does not look like town trying to catch up, it looks like someone trying to present themself as a busy townie.

vote casso

I'm feeling better about ffery right now, and a casso scumflip would cement that.

Cabd or ffery should understand what the question mark was about.

The "flurry of activity" is me catching up on an iPad.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I know I'm town but I don't think I'm likelier to pick up on crumbs as town than I am as scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I don't just read when I catch up. It's inconvenient to read through and then read through again and try to find the things I want to respond to again.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I know I'm town but I don't think I'm likelier to pick up on crumbs as town than I am as scum.

Sorry I missed it, it didn't come up in pedit.

I don't buy it. I'd be a lot more assertive if someone was claiming something I just did as town was a scum tell. I have been in this very game. Yeah you're scum.

I'm not as assertive as you and Tammy are about my towniness. I don't think that me not picking up on crumbs is a scumtell or a town tell or why ffery was thinking that it was. It could be one of those scumtells that I don't know about, so it's not the type of thing I can reject outright. I don't think it is, though.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Tammy saying that she is town is a town tell for her. Saying it doesn't mean she is town.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

Town and wrong. Pushing me is one of the most reliable town tells ffery has, and this feels like a decent push.

[Casso the King of Seals]

-This is fair.
-Why didn't it make sense before?
-He usually has a better eye for things like that.
-I can't say I can call it a "hard edge", but I felt something was off about him initially. I thought his later posts cleared up him not picking up on what I expected him to, so I began the process of backing off. What are you talking about?
-Usually an open ended query to a strong scumread is the beginning of a major momentum shift, which would be caused by something like a smoking gun scumread on SSK from Nati. Why is misinterpreting your intentions a scumtell?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I know I'm town but I don't think I'm likelier to pick up on crumbs as town than I am as scum.

Sorry I missed it, it didn't come up in pedit.

I don't buy it. I'd be a lot more assertive if someone was claiming something I just did as town was a scum tell. I have been in this very game. Yeah you're scum.

I'm not as assertive as you and Tammy are about my towniness. I don't think that me not picking up on crumbs is a scumtell or a town tell or why ffery was thinking that it was. It could be one of those scumtells that I don't know about, so it's not the type of thing I can reject outright. I don't think it is, though.

Like I said above, missing the crumbs almost pales compared to missing the effect the crumbs had on other players.

I flew by one, got FoSed for it, went back, over-estimated what it was about, tested that, and eventually had a working hypothesis. That was one ripple of many.

You didn't react to any of that.

I didn't react to any of it because I didn't notice it. I picked up on some of the waves crashing on shore but missed the ripples, meaning that the majority of my reactions are questions, which are the types of things I would rather keep to myself.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

Town and wrong. Pushing me is one of the most reliable town tells ffery has, and this feels like a decent push.

Can you give examples where you were both town and ffery was wrong about you? I want to compare.

I'm not sure these examples exist. Ffery and I are hitting a bit of an uncharted territory in our relationship.

[Casso the King of Seals]

She would know better than I would, though.

[Casso the King of Seals]

-I am picking up on less crumbs than I normally would because iPad. I also don't think that's a scumtell for me.

...an iPad makes you worse at reading?

dafuq?

I am not as careful as I would be on a bigger screen/when I would have more time to read and play mafia. iPad takes longer to post and thus I rush a little more when I play on it.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

Town and wrong. Pushing me is one of the most reliable town tells ffery has, and this feels like a decent push.

Can you give examples where you were both town and ffery was wrong about you? I want to compare.

I'm not sure these examples exist. Ffery and I are hitting a bit of an uncharted territory in our relationship.

Okay. And what are those "waves crashing on the shore" that you picked up while missing the "ripples?" Which players were you referring to?

I won't comment, considering crumbs.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Domo is meh; I have liked a lot of his posting but nothing in it so far stands out and a few of his pushes seem a bit strange (see: push on me where he kind of follows your push on me but not really).

Stuffed Crust is higher considering Mactown.

Sakura/Muffin lower, Sakura mainly based on lack of doing things and Muffin because I didn't like talah posts and muffin has been pretty underwhelming so far. Brian meh leaning town based on his reaction to the gambit, F-16 town because of the gambit.

The lurkers are all in the scum slot for me, with a few maybe not push moments for good morning.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura mainly based on lack of doing things

Well sorry but i haven't been motivated to play much mafia in general, lately i dont get as much fun as i used to, and it doesn't help bundled up with my real life issues (which is why im on V/LA)

You can always rant about real life things to me! I know we are not hydraing, but the Mononoke QT is always open!

[Casso the King of Seals]

I would like each player that reacted to my fakeclaim to claim if they were playing along, or if they thought I was actually claiming masons, though.

I thought you were serious

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho missing it even though I was overly obvious about it in several different posts is what gives me shivers about him.

Especially given how MAJOR it was as a part of the victory in said xenogears game.

I was pretty slow to pick up on it there as well. Why does a victory in another game mean that I'm more likely to pick up on similar crumbs in the next one as town but not as scum?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Well i can rant about you how my boss has been harsh on me the past couple weeks and sometimes even threatening with firing me and has been keeping me really stressed and the fact that im not going to get any sort of vacations until next year isnt really reasurring.

Tho at least he had the heart to let me take a few days off when i was stricken with a cold.

Your boss sounds like a massive dick.

[Casso the King of Seals]

if there's one person in this game I can trust to read you correctly, who do you think it probably is?

*shrug*

i expect once i actually get in the game, some players should be able to pick up on obvious cues i'm town, but your guess is as good as mine

I also don't think that's a scumtell for me.

Nice scumclaim. Don't think? You should KNOW if you're town.

Yeah I feel really good about this lynch now.

this is so bad

but nacho's meek response to such a retarded accusation did not sit well with me either

why did you even entertain Domo on this Nacho?

I understood why my reaction bothered him, meaning there was a point that could be addressed behind the dirty words.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I think I'm wrong about desperado.

Not SC though.

vote stuffed crust

Why on both?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Anyone from Xenogears who didn't catch it deserves scrutiny, though.

Why do you expect town to "catch it?" From experience, I find town are a lot more oblivious to PR claims although it depends on the player.

49 was pretty explicit

I think I am missing something. Why wouldn't scum who played the gears game catch the same thing?

If I were scum reading that, I would try to ignore it as much as possible, townread the two people masoning for other reasons, then shoot it at night in the midgame before they're revealed. Especially since they might have also picked up that I crumbed mason-bodyguard, not just mason, so they'd assume I might die protecting a target anyways.

That's the point; anyone who didn't phone in on it seems like they were trying to ignore it b/c it was fairly explicit.

Scum picking up on masons can go "hey guys I see you", leave them alive if they wouldn't warrant a night kill normally then kill them when revealed so it looks like scum didn't know. That's a hell of a lot better than feigning ignorance.

[Casso the King of Seals]

No, I'm saying that legitimately thinking/perpetuating the idea that I'm scum when you've got no evidence for it and haven't articulated a case for it is awkward.

No evidence? Jesus Christ dude, it's d1. Where's your "evidence" that I'm scum? I have a gut read you're scum. That's as good as anyone is getting today because there's nothing else to go on. Welcome to d1. So no, I haven't got any evidence, no more than anyone else has on anyone. I've explained what makes me *think* you're scum. I notice you're asking people to sheep you onto me. This is something else I don't like, that I consider scummy. I'll tell people who I think are scum, but I won't try and move other people vote's onto the wagon I'm on, because that's not very pro-town, it's effectively like saying "I'm right you're wrong". How can you be so sure?

You're pretty predictable, too. I knew you'd respond with the whole "lining up mislynches" thing as I was writing that.

Well why don't you explain how me flipping town suddenly looks bad for desperado, when it's his case you seem to be jumping on?

Given this and the fact that you're grasping at commenting on anything else that's happening as of late makes me believe that you're trying to escape my persecution. You won't. I'm clamped onto your ass like a pitbull.

This is chest beating. I don't consider this to be much of a town tell. If you were town, there's no way you can feel this confident you bagged scum on d1.

I'm very confident that you are scum based on your interactions with me

Well you better start thinking about how you're going to pretend to be shocked.

and then, yes, I'd be pushing a wagon on Desperado

This doesn't make sense to set up your target a day in advance when there's lots that can happen overnight. I haven't got a clue who I'm going after tomorrow if we lynch you and you flip town. There's too many factors for me to consider that now. So why are you thinking so far ahead? When you first put your vote on me, you're already thinking in terms of DOMO vs desperado.

Yeah I think you're scum who seized on a town vs town war.

Asking someone to sheep you isn't actually that scummy; it demonstrates conviction in reads which is pretty much never a bad thing. You know for a fact that you can have more than vague gut D1, as evidenced by Xenoblade and strong confident scumreads on 2.

I see your point in lining up lynches, but that's more of a Varsoon thing as opposed to anything else (he did the same thing in Ngame).

[Casso the King of Seals]

I don't care if I die in the process, I'll expose you and your scum-buddies.
I don't care if I look retarded or idiotic or whatever, I'm going to pin scum.
DOMO, I think you're scum. Your defense of yourself keeps pushing an offense of me, setting me up as some kind of opponent of yours. You're actively scumpainting me with your posts.
Instead of defending yourself, you're attacking me.
And, really, what threat do I pose to you?
I'm town. All I can fucking do is vote and make noise.
So, why are you trying to quell that noise?
What about it is so threatening?
If you're town, wouldn't you just brush it off?

P-EDIT:
I am town, so you can stop being an asshole and saying otherwise.

-V

DOMO, I am surprised that you didn't townread this. It has all of the "I am town I am town" conviction that you talked about earlier, doesn't it?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho, what did you do? why is C calling you guys scum?

I didn't pick up on his crumb.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also i'm not liking how Varsoon has to repeat in each of his posts "I'm town" "I'm gonna flip town" rather than actually being town >_>

PEd: Convenient for me unconvenient for you.

PEd2: That's looking good to me, all those people will be obvtown to me when you flip scum

A lot of people do that. Why do you think it's suspicious? Why isn't he being town?

[Casso the King of Seals]

On the other, DOMO feels really genuine in response.

Gurl lookit dat 180

I find magical 180s for no real reason to be pretty town, actually.

[Casso the King of Seals]

EBWOP:
Add Sakura to the people I'm suspicious of.
If I had to make a scum-pool now, though?

Pieguyn,
Sakura,
Desperado,
Casso.

Feels right to me.

Vote: Stuffed Crust

what happened to you being sure that one of Korean/SSK was scum Varsoon?

you know who likes to create arbitrary dichotomies? scum.

what's weird about my voting pattern?

and you saying this reeks of scum-desp is seriously the fucking dumbest thing you have ever said. justify it

He also created arbitrary dichotomies in Ngame.
Why are you voting them?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura playfulness makes her look better although it isn't the sort of thing I should be toe reading.

[Casso the King of Seals]

If I were a voting man, I'd vote pitoli desperado or muffin (desperado).

[Casso the King of Seals]

I expected muffin to come in with more blazing glory. Right now he feels more like he did in touhou as opposed to him as the tracer of rails.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho, have you developed the full Nacho-reads-list yet (complete with "town+", "town" and "leftovers?"

Also, why Pitoli, or Muffin (Talah)?

It's in my head but it's not written down anywhere!
Pitoli is still concerning me for not even showing up.

[Casso the King of Seals]

No. I wouldn't cry if you responded to the other things though!

[Casso the King of Seals]

I don't think him being lazy is a particular scumtell and I find it weird that you would think it is.

It's a scumtell in certain situations. This might be one of them.

[Casso the King of Seals]

No thank you!

[Casso the King of Seals]

why so fixated on ngame?

Because Nacho literally *lives* in the world of meta.

I'm actually debating him off and on now about how "Tammy doesn't fake emotions".
I mean, seriously, what is that? How the heck can she not fake emotions, it's like in his mind she's a robot when she pulls scum.

Also, I haven't read...so very much of this thread. So I'm just going to skim some stuff now.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Tammy's a little more Meh-read now. She was God-town earlier, but holding a grudge on an attack that I had made earlier and not understanding where my paranoia of her is coming from is a little weird. The emotions were, and still are town as Smurf though and isn't something that isn't easily replicated as scum even by me and my ability to replicate most, if not all of my major town-tells is something I have alot of pride over.

Serious question; do you think and/or have ever seen Tammy fake emotions as scum? Because Nacho is acting like that's writ in the stars, and you seem flakey on it, so one of you is talking out your backside as far as the read goes. So whassup with this? She is either emotive and thus gawd town, or she is emotive and able to fake it in which case I'd like one of the meta crowd to slap Nacho in the face with a rolled up newspaper.

I read up from page 70. It all seems quite boring.

We should have lynched someone thirty pages ago.

Nacho and I are still arguing about BBQ (shock, guess which side of the equation Nach is falling on) but he hasn't hard ixnayed me on that one like with Tammy or GM (for some fething reason).

Both of us still agree Stuffed Crust looks town. Looking at Page 70 or so, I still see that like it's coming through pretty clear, so what is this wagon on him about? Is it a brilliant case I'm just missing or what?

Muffin's entrance is weak but slightly townish.

I'm left really 'meh' here, and bored. Have we even managed a single L-1 wagon yet?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Went back to look at 66+67 and the Desp vote.
That looks really skeevy and Desp fails to address Stuffed's pretty excellent counter of Desp's "case"

Also looked at Pie's vote, it's more boring to me, kind of a mush mouth hop on at worst and at best.

Let's lynch one of them, I don't recall Nacho declaring either of their meta's sacrosanct yet.

[Casso the King of Seals]

@Ceph - I find you scummy and your wagon on Stuffed bad. Please justify him being scum. Go, go, go!

[Casso the King of Seals]

The above post is an amazing pile of nothing and also clarifies why I should be scum reading you.

Would you like to link me to one of your Stuffed=scumz posts?
Also, an opinion about the Desp/Stuffed interaction on page 66 (very bottom) through 67 would be interesting to see from you.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I pulled up your ISO and ctrl+f'ed 'Stuffed'

I was not exactly blown away.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I've played one game where Tammy was scum. She made a lot of the same declarations of towniness in that game. When players doubted her she used a lot of the same words to assert that she was towntowntown. But, it wasn't the same. There were no strong emotions - anger, surprise, smugness, whatever, fizzing through those posts.

This is mind blowing to me. Tammy should work with me for one game and she'd be unlynchable in her next scum game whenever she so wished it.

I'm not even going to look at the linked game because I doubt I'll be able to spot or care about the "not the same" emotional level.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I lied.

I don't even see an emotional blowup in that game for me to even analyze compared to here.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I feel like that was a cruel game to make me iso someone for no purpose.

What's your read on Desp and the Stuffed Crust wagon right now?
Also a read on Ceph.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I think SC is pretty flagrantly full of Smurf there, and rereading it makes me feel better about Desperado.

How is Stuffed full of Smurf? I find his defense quite logical and reasonable, and Desp then ignores it and continues his slap attack. How do you like that all specifically?

B) if your slot doesn't townread me eventually then it's scum, so I wouldn't really care about its opinion.

That's a funny and awkward bit of passive threat/bribery.
Unimpressed.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Also, I still don't see that Stuffed case.

[Casso the King of Seals]

pieguyn is actually worrying me some.

Unvote: Korean BBQ
Vote: pieguy

[Casso the King of Seals]

You didn't ask, but my case is 'eh, why not?'

[Casso the King of Seals]

What's the roflcoptor case? Is it exciting and does that wagon have any legs?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Okay, we'll toss Tammy off the board for a while and I will live in continued awareness that one of my foibles in being town is I expect everyone to be able to do what I do when I'm scum, and apparently that's actually quite rare. It really explains so much.

That looks really skeevy and Desp fails to address Stuffed's pretty excellent counter of Desp's "case"

hahaha what

hahaha...exactly what I said?

Your case on him when you voted him was "what happened to your big suspects from a few hundred posts ago!?!?
And then his reply was "they are right there in my 'suspected to be scum' pile.
And your reply was 'neener-neener, noise!'

It's quite scummy.
Now do you understand?

@DOMO
@MC

Wanna vote Pie for being mushy or Desp for being dodgy and responding to an accusation by typing out fake laughter?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I don't even feel like I want to debate Desp.
His case is silly - anyone who thinks otherwise can tell me why.
I don't expect a bunch of feet stampeding towards my door on that one.

Can we just get a Dayvig in here to end this all, the day is monstrous and I don't think anyone is being functional anymore. We need consensus and an L-1.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Yeah, I tend to run away easily because my beard doesn't command as much authority as I wish it did and my logic isn't a suitable scepter with which my kingdom can be ruled.

Egads!

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho, more details about your zmuffin read plz.

I expect you to pick up on this more than anyone else in thread. If you're not picking up on it, we will be sitting on a we'll see basis.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Pie guy vote seems pretty gowiththeflow. Why didn't you question me about my muffin read? I would expect you to be especially interested in it, but you didn't even attempt to address it.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Nacho, I'm afraid at present that dance is on hold, because I hadn't factored in that a large game will mean more arguements... For me.

However, one thing I would like to pull you up on, you have barely commented on anything I have posted in this game, and that sing like you at all. What gives? Can't imagine the all mighty nachomamma is scared of me...

I have made essentially two posts this game, Generic.

Unless I'm crazy and really, really suck at telling you two apart, this is a lie. At the point of when this post was made there were at least 5 made by you

though, I am kinda sad that you were unable to tell that I'm the one who asked for your application. not C.

You didn't catch the crumb?

it was pretty blatant Imo and enough so that I think that you would have been able to catch it, easily. Not something I expect from Thor because, while he's smart he isn't the best at reading between the lines.

Though, Thor lying about who you are when asked will prolly through a good amount of town into a huge state of confusion.

By that point I had made the equivalent of about 2 beautiful Nacho quote walls. This iPad swells my vote count unnecessarily, though.

[Casso the King of Seals]

nope

Then why are you using the same argument against Varsoon that scum-you used against me in Xenogears?

pedit: not really, I play day 1 predominantly by small-scale associative tells to try to build out the larger game narrative.

pedit2: that's because you're forced to respond in the pro-town way to avoid looking scummy. It's like how I can't question day 1 miller/pgo/hated/etc claims until at least day 2-3 because if I do it day 1 then I'm obviously scum.

i don't remember what you're talking about, but it's probably because i was trying to look town in xenogears

He also created arbitrary dichotomies in Ngame.
Why are you voting them?

I expected muffin to come in with more blazing glory. Right now he feels more like he did in touhou as opposed to him as the tracer of rails.

why so fixated on ngame?

I'm fixated on Ngame because you're attacking Varsoon for things that happened in Ngame which is pretty strange to me.

Tracer of rails was referring to more than just Ngame. Why do you care if I'm drawing too heavily off one specific meta source?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Pie guy vote seems pretty gowiththeflow. Why didn't you question me about my muffin read? I would expect you to be especially interested in it, but you didn't even attempt to address it.

Who are you addressing?

Pie guy.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I have been justifying it.

I'm not as convinced as I started out (shhhh its a secret) but still think it's the best wagon by a longshot. If you'd prefer I move to you though perhaps that could be arranged (not really).

It disturbs me that you're scumreading me here after correctly scumreading me in my other two games with you ever (I think my play is pretty different here). I guess you just think I'm scum all the time and I've been giving you too much credit!

Thor managed to read someone correctly???

[Casso the King of Seals]

@ nacho: because that doesn't seem like a trap you generally fall in to

i don't give a shit if varsoon has done what i'm accusing him of as town once and neither should you

You should give a shit about it because it's more of a weird Varsoon tic as opposed to an actual scumtell. What do you think of Macs posting in the hydra so far?

[Casso the King of Seals]

i also don't think varsoon's townplay after replacing in to a game where 90% of the sorting had already been done is indicative of much of anything

It shows that he makes weird false dichotomies as town!

[Casso the King of Seals]

as far as i can tell mac hasn't posted since i started interacting with them

He posted before you started interacting with them.

[Casso the King of Seals]

i also don't think varsoon's townplay after replacing in to a game where 90% of the sorting had already been done is indicative of much of anything

It shows that he makes weird false dichotomies as town!

that's cool

i already said i don't care if he did it as town once. why do you suppose he can't justify his stance beyond "i isoed them and it's like xenogears"?

Fuck if I know. Why do you think scumVarsoon is making all of these strange stances if he can't back them up?

[Casso the King of Seals]

I have been justifying it.

I'm not as convinced as I started out (shhhh its a secret) but still think it's the best wagon by a longshot. If you'd prefer I move to you though perhaps that could be arranged (not really).

It disturbs me that you're scumreading me here after correctly scumreading me in my other two games with you ever (I think my play is pretty different here). I guess you just think I'm scum all the time and I've been giving you too much credit!

Thor managed to read someone correctly???

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Casso

Thanks for making this easy for me

You're voting me for a joke?

[Casso the King of Seals]

Jeepers Creepers, put that behind a spoiler= tag or somethin'!~

My initial call of SSK/BBQ having scum in it wasn't arbitrary, either.

so what else do you have to justify the stance

other than it reminds you of xenogears

?

When I came into the game, there was a 4/4 split between two wagons with strong, vocal players on both.
The wagons were cross-voted.

I don't even mention that it reminds me of Xenogears until post 1111.
I guess you ignore how I mentioned ISO-diving both players in the same post, as that wouldn't be very conducive to mention given what I've bolded in your quote.

In retrospect, it's pretty obvious that I was trying to pressure a wagon and get consensus on the state of affairs way more than I was trying to make a strong push against a player, so there's that to consider, too.

But hey, like I said in 1117, If I give you purpose, then I'm happy. :3

-V

This is the additional justification you were looking for, by the way.

[Casso the King of Seals]

No...?

[Casso the King of Seals]

No...?

premise- you are nacho
premise- you are scumreading me strongly enough to not have any caveat in that post
conclusion- you are scum

You said that Thor read you correctly in two games.
I express surprise that Thor read anyone correctly ever.
Nowhere did I call you scum.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Thor seems ready to pick a direction and start pushing, which is very Thor no matter what his alignment. Nacho looks like he's still trying to figure shit out so he knows what direction to pick. I can relate, because that's where I'm at. I have a scumpile but I'm not very happy with it.

You should see our ruddy QT of me saying 'let's lynch this' and him going 'nah' and then both of us demand to know 'why?' for the other one and the basic answer is 'because' from each side.

It's kinda bewildering. I think I'm just starting to call EVERYONE scum just so Nach can hopefully find one he agrees with enough to let me demand lynching of.

In other news;

@Mod - v/la for this week until sometime on the 21st. Let's call it all of the 21st too just in case I am wasted and tired and don't feel like posting, but I'm guessing I'll be back the 21st. Still, v/la for 16-22 for safety's sake.

Also, depending on internet access, it may not even be that...but, y'know, if it *is* then I won't be able to tell you any different unless I do so now.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Oh, and don't think I didn't see all the "Thor is full of himself = teh scumz' cases from 120920 pages ago.

Allow me to just laugh in your general direction for even managing to write that with a straight face, because., y'know, when Thor is town he's the humblest lad in the land, natch!
Also, on top of that, what I said wasn't even full of myself. I'm dealing with a player who apparently can't fake emotion - how many of you want to admit that you can't fake emotion when scum? If you're answering yes then I am a special and unique snowflake, and if you answer no then you should be agreeing with me how odd it is that she apparently is.

Who's th ebiggest wagon right now, I'm going to be tempted to vote them just for lulz at this stage...

[Casso the King of Seals]

Ah, right, the wagons have remained boring and meh in equal measure.

Ceph got off Stuffed, that might actually be interesting to iso and figure out why - his push there was skeezy as all get out but apparently I'm not allowed to lynch him.
Desp is still there though - also with a skeevy push, at least he's going for continuity of skeeve, so there is that.
All the other wagons remain meh and bad with a side of 'can't get a big one to save our lives'
I'm going to claim SK here in a few just so people have an excuse to vote this slot and maybe we can learn something.
Or maybe that's a tongue-in-cheek-joke that *is* an SK claim... You should probably vote anyway, why not, apparently the plan otherwise is to manage a deadline derp stumble lynch and call it "using all the time".

Apparently I'm on the biggest wagon that isn't a town read.
Five sacks are being sad and not even voting because...y'know...probably like 80 pages isn't enough info yet for them to risk offering their mighty votes and opinions yet.
So...huzzah.
Let's lynch pie.
Reason: because let's lynch anyone.

@BRO - that DOMO wagon is going nowhere fast, move your vote.
@rolfcoptor - I like that vote, but what are you doing to advance that wagon. Get exciting or get off.
@Stuffed - again, I like the vote, honestly I think that may be the best vote out there, but I think when I left we were on Desp so if Nach moved us to Pie then I am pretty happy with that and am on a bigger wagon, wanna sheep us? Heck, it's a good counter to you, let's keep this exciting!
@Generic - Yes, geists looks scummy to me. Big whoop, what are you accomplishing there?
@F16 - What's the rolfcoptor case? How much of it can be applied to any of the other wagons? You may even be active enough to semi-justify that vanity wagon but...c'mon, make some noise.
@Not voting lurk sacks - you suck. Get votes in play. Seriously, what is this? There are entire games smaller than this thread, I'm pretty sure there are valid places for your vote to be right now.

@ENTIRE THREAD - A CrAzY challenge! Let's try to get an L-1 wagon *before* we hit 100 pages! Can we do it!?!?! Who the heck knows!!!!

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why does Pie have like one of the most boringest reactions in the world.

holy fucking wow
so you dodge all my questions and instead redirect by drawing attention onto my reaction. this makes me think you don't actually have an answer for any of my questions. it's not rhetorical, so get to it :>

The fact that I still can't get a concrete read on him is already infuriating but there's the fact that he seems to hop from one target to the next forgetting EVERYTHING from the last, like restarting fresh every once in a while or something. Add that to a generic OMGUS

this is extremely hypocritical considering you dodged all my questions. if you're town, how am I supposed to get a concrete read on you if you dodge all my questions?

and once again, the same idea. why is OMGUS a scumtell? your jump on me sucked and I called you out on it. again you're trying to write off stuff I do as scummy without examining if it actually is or not. the fact that you're apparently not even trying to answer my questions, engage me, or look at the actual motivation behind my actions, IMO, makes me think you're not trying to legitimately scumhunt me in the first place.

I'm just going to quote this and call everything he said scummy with no backing or reasoning provided.
Vote him, I'm a seal!

[Casso the King of Seals]

I'm just going to quote this and call everything he said scummy with no backing or reasoning provided.
Vote him, I'm a seal!

what the Smurf?

this isn't serious is it

I'm just going to quote this and say, 'look how overdefensive he is' that's a scumtell, you can read it on a wiki or something. It's buzzwordy and rolls off the tongue! Maybe he's OMGUS ATE LALing too or something.

Yes, it's serious. I already made a case on you 218470 pages ago, and at this stage pretty much I'm game for lynching anyone who looks like I can get them lynched that I don't have a semi-town read on (aka - over half the playerlist). It looks like I can get you lynched. I could get Stuffed lynched too, apparently, but he looks town. After that I think *I'm* the third biggest wagon...with TWO VOTES ON ME!

I don't even really care so much about the town thing, frankly. If Stuffed goes to L-1 I may just hammer him without requesting a claim for yucks, because this game is a sludge stew of nothingness and has been for forty pages.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Looking at the Vote Count I see 9 chiefs, 6 Indians, and 5 kids who haven't decided if they want to play yet.

I'm sure these pages are just chock full of awesome pro-town info though.
Later I'll have Nacho explain to me that he only voted you for reactions and I'm not allowed to lynch you either because once, three years ago, you were town, and used the f-word, and tat means you're probably town now since you never fake that.

[Casso the King of Seals]

no I mean how you didn't include any reasoning with your post

Don't think I need to, even with your glance at our iso you were able to spot the case as phrased by Nacho. Here it is phrased by me;

Also looked at Pie's vote, it's more boring to me, kind of a mush mouth hop on at worst and at best.

We see slightly different aspects but our agreement on the core issue is pretty clear there.
It's also totally different than how I voted you, since, y'know, just for starters, he was actually agreeing with me, not the other way around.
Also, I forgot that I unvoted Desp, ah well, mystery solved.

I'm still perfectly fine with this vote.
Don't really care if the other people on your wagon have logic or don't.

[Casso the King of Seals]

so in other words you just ignored all my points

Actually I addressed some and specifically ignored others as not even being worth discussing. Most of what you're debating is what town motivation I have to, functionally 'not care' and I submit that it's laughable the rest of you are choosing to all pretend that you do care and are actually getting anything new out of the day at this point. We need a flip. We needed a flip a week and forty pages ago. If that makes me scum in your mind for saying, then so be it. I know which of us will win a 1v1.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Hey, look, Deadline is in less than five days.
How many L-1 wagons have we managed?

Okay then.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I love how when it looks like a wagon on me might start up you find some reason for accusing me. seriously, you're accusing me bc of smth I didn't do bc I didn't do it, and ignoring everything I have done besides the SC vote. essentially, you're just taking reasons at your own convenience, rather than trying to determine my alignment. this doesn't seem legitimate

It pinged me that you were following the stuffed crust wagon which I generally feel is a horrible wagon, and you not talking to me about muffin was also pretty strange, considering I had a ~secret~ scumread on him that I thought you would be interested in buying if town. I know Muffin p much owned you in Touhou and I'm expecting you to be ready to get him back, so I'm watching your interactions with him; you not even giving me the time of day was a misstep. I'll note that I didn't even come close to voting you, was just poking at you a bit: why did you feel that I wasn't trying to sort you?

did you miss the part where I confidently placed goodmorning in my townpile despite how everyone had scumreads on her? and then backed up said townread when questioned about it?

I thought your townread on goodmorning was still pretty weird.

Why the hell call it something so ambiguous?

Why does it matter what you label your categories? Intent is clear in all cases.

i've never seen nacho use meta as a primary means for reading me, not to mention how horribly half-assed that meta read on me is - granted i don't have much content yet to go on, but this just felt like him trying to push the idea that i'm not playing to some concept of my town meta he apparently has and calling me scum without properly analysing. and thor's read on me in 1780 just completely ignored nacho's analysis, which makes me go, "wtf?" the other reads i've seen from them haven't been any more impressive

In the past, my primary means of reading you have been to call you obvtown when you've gotten ridiculously obvtown or generally expect you to get nightkilled (or be scum). We've gotten so wonderfully close that I have a bit of a different perspective on your play, so naturally the way that I approach you is going to change significantly. Why didn't you expect that? And sorry, what kind of read on you did you expect other than a half-assed meta read based on your posts so far?

if you're town this is the most bullshit thing I've ever seen bc you're not giving me anything to work with to help you fix your read on me. if you're scum, on the other hand, how fucking convenient. you can just sit there and not have to take responsibility for anything when I flip town

You'll find this is Thor's usual game and it is a large part of the reason of why he is more likely to succeed as scum.

second, if you actually believed this, then you should, to some extent, get my reason for "not asking you about your zmuffin read". but you try to pass it off as scummy. why? bc it's convenient for your "case" on me. there are several instances of choices players can make and actions they can choose to do or not do, so why all of a sudden is this specific one scummy? I don't see you asking anyone at all about their pie townreads. by your own logic, isn't this scummy too? what's the difference?

This was explained more thoroughly earlier, but some interactions are more interesting than others. Pie-Sakura is more interesting than Pie-SSK, for example. Pie-Muffin is one of those interesting ones, I added a nice component to the interaction, my addition went ignored and I wondered why.

I hoped that doing something like this would help me quell my paranoia of Nacho and allow us to work together but I am not blown away yet and feel now that it was probably a suboptimal move.

You can attack me and it won't break my heart, you know. Just don't kill me as scum or no respect for you.

[Casso the King of Seals]

town: maraca, bro, geists, tammy, f16, pieguy, koreanbbq, generic, varsoon, cephrir
maybe also domo. and maybe also desp

{casso, mafiassk, brian skies, goodmorning, sakura, pitoli, roflcopter}
haven't really sorted this yet

Your to sort list is me and a bunch of low hanging fruit, which doesn't actually bode too well for you. I can see you making me the centerpiece of your Day 1 play if you feel like people wouldn't expect you to push on me as scum. I mean, I could see you scumreading me as town as well, but I find it strange that nothing in Maraca/BRO/pieguy/BBQ/generic/Varsoon/Cephrir stuck out to you as anything but town. This feels like the kind of scumpool you could come up with after an initial readthrough then toss it out because it's way too easy.

but the main reason i don't like them at the moment is that it feels a lot like they're coasting along and content with not creating any friction while doing not a lot of anything. kinda hypocritical coming from me given the start i've had this game, but meh, i'm still getting my bearings in this game.

You've seen me coast as town as scum. What makes this a more scummish coast as opposed to a townish coast?

i also don't like the way they're forming their reads. it doesn't look like what i'd expect from them as town. e.g. i'm not really sure what's going on with their read on me.

What other reads are formed in a strange way?

Vote: zMuffinMan

We don't have to tell Thor that I changed our vote.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Care to explain the last sentence there?

Refer back to F-16's proposal to me and you'll understand.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I also never knew what your push on geists was in the first place, so it's probably a good thing that stopped!

[Casso the King of Seals]

I did and I still don't.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Are you going to tunnel Mara now? You did say earlier that you were going to tunnel of hell her.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Are you going to tunnel Mara now? You did say earlier that you were going to tunnel of hell her.

Why are you so keen to get me fighting with mara?

Because usually you become obvtown when you fight with Mara.
I see no reason why you wouldn't engage her if you thought she was scum, which I thought you believed before.

Their gambits helped the scum wincon more. They don't deny it when I accused them of it. I don't like any of the leading wagons either.

How did the Mason gambit help the scum wincon more? I realize that it didn't really go anywhere, but I don't see how it was scum beneficial.

at best, no read. you clearly have no understanding of my meta if you actually think this is my scum game, and the reason i called your meta read on me half-assed is because you can't even explain why you thought i was scum, except to say you expected me to come in guns blazing as town. which shows you have no clue about how i play as scum or town.

You can't pretend that your current approach to the game is definitively not your scum meta, so please don't start that shit again. My read on you was based on ~feelings~ and ~vague meta~, sure, but I don't see how a shitty read on you suddenly makes me more likely to be scum. It shouldn't be too hard for you to believe that I would want to sort you early instead of let you coast like everyone else seems to.

dealwithit.jpg

So you do believe that the scumteam is formed of "Nacho and a bunch of lurkers"? Meaning if you're wrong on me, your scumteam is... "a bunch of lurkers"?

when i've seen you "coast" as town, you're still doing stuff, you're still trying to sort people properly, and even when your read on someone is way off, you still look like you're trying to figure out what's going on. here i see none of that.

You're apparently not looking very closely, then.

and all you've done is insist that pieguy should have been more interested in your read on me.

I also said that I didn't like the timing of his jump onto the SC wagon.
And I never had a fully formed read on him, so I don't really see your problem with it. Keep going, muffinman.

the BBQ read is another. you guys apparently went from thinking they're scum to one of you thinking they're town and the other thinking they're scum, and since then you've just... not mentioned them at all.

Thor read them as scum because Thor.
Nacho read them as town because Nacho.
Thor eventually came over to Nacho's line of thought.
Did I need to comment further on that?

I'll rethink that issue although I still find them scummier than Stuffed and Pie.

And Muffin?

We talked about the differences in Cabd's town and scum gambits a few games back. What are your thoughts about his RVS-phase breadcrumbs from that perspective?

I don't remember the talk as clearly, but I will say that his mason gambit seemed like the sort of thing that gives no definitive scum motivation (I mean, sure he can attack people who can't pick up on the crumb, but that's a case with no leverage and doesn't really do shit for scum-Cabd) and also is a sort of gambit that doesn't really give clear sorting motivation (as opposed to a quickhammer gambit which can strongly sort someone who is close to lynch, perhaps save a mislynch from happening even though it's already done). So, thinking about it in that way, it seems pretty fucking town. I have to say I'm completely lost as to what's causing weird Tammy-Cabd interactions, though. The Tammy-obvtown shtick is something he's seen often enough, so rage in seeing it now is... off? And I can't see why he would pull a similar "push Tammy and make her obvtown" gambit like I tried in Dixon considering how horribly that turned out for us then.

so Thor always misreps, discredits, and uses scare tactics to get people lynched? like I know some people are more aggressive but what he did makes sense from a scum motivation and idk what town motivation he could have behind all that.

That's pretty much Thor in a nutshell, yes.

THEN TWO POSTS LATER CASSO COMES IN AND ACCUSES ME

when he was apparently scumreading Cephrir the whole time

I don't get why this is a big deal. Didn't like your vote on Stuffed Crust, don't care who you're pushing as scum other than Stuffed Crust if your vote sucks.

THEN STARTS THE WAGON ON ME, DESPITE THE FACT THAT I'M POKING AT HIS SCUMREAD. AND OH LOOK HIS VOTE WASN'T EVEN ON CEPHRIR

Our vote wasn't on Cephrir. It was on someone else he found scummy.
Why should you pushing on a scumread make you town as hell somehow?

with the reason "eh, why not?"? WTF

Did you think this was a serious case? It wasn't a serious case.

[Casso the King of Seals]

nice, completely ignoring my point about the subtleties he threw in on top of his aggression when mentioning "that's thor in a nutshell"

is it any coincidence that that's a fairly decisive point in my case? probably not :>

I can fully address your attacks if you'd like but it seems to me that it'd be a hell of a lot more fruitful if Thor defended your attack on him.

my point is, I was poking around and the two of you immediately swung a wagon on me to get me off you. that's the conclusion I've made based off the timing of your votes/pushes, and your interactions between each other

You were attacking Cephrir. Then you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. We attacked you because we didn't like how you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. You said "why attack me if I was attacking one of your scum suspects?". Answer? It doesn't matter who your suspects are when 1) Cephrir is a Thor-suspect who is vetted to be town by me. 2) Thor clearly didn't have any very strong scumspects at the time (notice a bunch of complaints about no good wagon, offers to move vote easily...), so a weak suspect attacking a weak suspect isn't really something that's particularly important to us.

naturally it should ping you in some way if I'm poking on one of your scumreads. were you thinking both me and Cephrir were scum?

Explained above pretty nicely.

here Ceph does the same shit you accuse me of doing (wagoning on SC). but then you vote me and never mention Cephrir again? you were going back and forth with him for a while but rather than placing your vote on him, who you were more vocally scumreading and putting pressure on, you wait for the pressure to shift my way and swing a wagon on me. you demonstrated no intent to go forward with a SC wagon, however, instead preferring me or Desp, despite the fact you were pushing on him for a while up to here and he did the exact same thing I did. naturally you should be OK with wagoning Ceph. and you haven't even mentioned Ceph's jump on SC since then? not to mention you hadn't placed a vote on him throughout the whole game, despite apparently scumreading him for a while?

Thor sees two votes that he doesn't like: one by Cephrir, who I have called town. One by you, who I hadn't called town.
Thor's goal is to get a wagon started. Thor sees possible support for your wagon. Thor moves forward with the wagon.
So yes, you're right that we moved forward on you when support came around for you. Why did we choose you over Cephrir? Because I had a townread on Cephrir. Why did we choose you over Desp? Because there was more support on you than there was on Desp.

Our vote wasn't on Cephrir.

It was on someone else he found scummy.

your vote was on someone else Cephrir found scummy?

...ok then

Thor*

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why do you think muffin might be town?

[Casso the King of Seals]

You were attacking Cephrir. Then you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon.

misrep. I got on SC for the most part before I was attacking Cephrir. to be specific, I got on SC at pretty much the same time my attack on Cephrir started.

You were attacking Cephrir. Then you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. We attacked you because we didn't like how you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. You said "why attack me if I was attacking one of your scum suspects?". Answer? It doesn't matter who your suspects are when 1) Cephrir is a Thor-suspect who is vetted to be town by me. 2) Thor clearly didn't have any very strong scumspects at the time (notice a bunch of complaints about no good wagon, offers to move vote easily...), so a weak suspect attacking a weak suspect isn't really something that's particularly important to us.

Thor sees two votes that he doesn't like: one by Cephrir, who I have called town. One by you, who I hadn't called town.
Thor's goal is to get a wagon started. Thor sees possible support for your wagon. Thor moves forward with the wagon.
So yes, you're right that we moved forward on you when support came around for you. Why did we choose you over Cephrir? Because I had a townread on Cephrir. Why did we choose you over Desp? Because there was more support on you than there was on Desp.

here's the problem. given all the other evidence (timing, associatives between you two, you two individually etc.) I have reason to believe that you all jumped on me to get me off you. and this isn't exactly a hard card for scum to pull, and could easily be a coverup. I wouldn't put it past you to fake this kind of trajectory/thought process/w.e as scum. so this answer isn't at all reassuring

especially when your whole reason for pushing on me was based solely off the SC wagon. certainly you have to have some better reads you can push towards a lynch on? I find it doubtful of all the people in this game the best option up for lynch is just bc of a jump on a wagon 0.0 mb this is BoP or whatever but meh

sure we have the idea that you and Thor are different people, but idk if that even matters and I prefer not to pay much attention to "hydra dissonance" bc I have no fucking idea what's even alignment indicative wrt that

also, if Thor's goal was just to get a wagon started and he had no strong scumspects, then why the hell was he so dead set on getting me lynched? it doesn't make sense to me. why would he try to strongarm a lynch on someone he's not even sure of when he could just leave it up to you to pick a more reliable target and lynch them?

Why do you think muffin might be town?

I don't necessarily think he's town so much as I don't see any specific reason why he's scum, and I have other people I think are more likely to be scum. his extreme laid-backness reads slight town for me but it's a super light towntell and I'm not putting any faith in it at all, especially from zmuffin. essentially, there's people who have done smth to make me think they're scum and then there's zmuffin who hasn't really done much at all. if we focus on other people then zmuffin might do more and then we could sort him later

I think you're asking the wrong question. IMO it should be "why is zmuffin scum" as opposed to "why might zmuffin be town" 0.0

Re: misrep, I don't think my bungling of events changes things any.

Re: us attacking you in order to chainsaw cephrir, there are a multitude of ways Thor and I could handle you attacking Cephrir as scum. Attacking you is probably the dumbest way to handle it. We didn't attack you solely off vote, which was explained. Why do we need a better push than you? We had a good feeling about the push, and so we made it. Are there better targets in thread? Probably, but we will get there eventually.

If you want to ignore the fact we are two separate people, you can't ignore the fact that we occasionally do things that wouldn't be the first choice of either head.

Thors play style is to make strong pushes and see reactions. He pushes hard for lynches because that's how you pressure people.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Zmuffin is completely non-comittal and his iso yields absolutely no scum-hunting

*shrug*

if by non-committal, you mean i barely give a shit about this game, then you're right. but that's mostly because reading the back-and-forth bitching between some of the players in this game is sapping my motivation

as for lack of scum hunting, meh, your definition of scum hunting must be very different to mine

It shouldn't be too hard for you to believe that I would want to sort you early

mmhmm. and if you really were trying to sort me, i'd expect you to have, you know... actually done something to try and sort me. but you haven't done that and you're not doing that.

Meaning if you're wrong on me, your scumteam is... "a bunch of lurkers"?

the phrasing of this is really off. from your pov, if you're town, you shouldn't be talking about "if" i'm wrong on you. but i digress.

yeah, if you're town, then my scum list would contain primarily "lurkers". that's just how my reads developed this game. i imagine i could be wrong somewhere in my town reads, but i'm not all that concerned about it atm. that'll most likely sort itself out somewhere down the line.

besides, if you think it's strange to suspect primarily lurkers, why are you only calling me out for it? why not, say, maraca, whose most recent scum list is

all

low-content players? or any of the other people whose scum lists include primarily "lurkers"?

I never had a fully formed read on him, so I don't really see your problem with it

that

is

my problem with it, actually. it never looked fully-formed and you guys seemed so confident about him being scum (or at least thor did). but i'm assuming this means your read on him is now fully-formed. what is your pieguy read now?

Did I need to comment further on that?

it was never clear what your actual read on them is (was). so thor now thinks bbq is town?

If I'm not trying to sort you, what the hell are we doing now?

Your attack on my phrasing is something that makes me sad you brought it up in the first place. I'm attacking you because you know your scum list is probably wrong and aren't really making efforts to refine it. Your primary push is on me which you know isn't the type of thing that isn't going to go through anytime soon, and you aren't really making an effort to sort out things any further than you have already even though the current position that you would be as a townie would be the type that's frustrating and generally not acceptable. I'm not attacking Maraca because I have other reasons to call them town and they actually are making efforts to refine things.

Town, hence why I stopped attacking him. Thor seemed confident he was scum, maybe, but his case on him was distinctly of the "not really confident this is scum" type, so that shouldn't have confused you that much.

Yes, he does.

[Casso the King of Seals]

LIKE WE CAN'T EVEN GET A MISLYNCH TO HQVR MORE THAN 4 VOTES

I DONT KNOW, MAYBE IT HAS TO DO WITH THE INACTIVITY AND FAILURE TO BUILD WORTHWHILE CASES?

I'll probably break down and ISO dig one of my scum reads.
BBQ is pinging harder and harder for me. I think that it's awkward that he'd call for my lynch without interacting with me--especially since a lot of people put trust in GiF's reads of me. This is obviously something scum-GiF can exploit easily, and BBQ's play is very opportunistic. I could make a huge meta analysis of this, but Meta is useless, so I'll stick to my guns and present an actual case whenever I've got three hours to burn.

zMuffin wagon is populated by some of my hardest scum reads. Dunno if this could be a bus, but it PoE's zMuffin for me into town more than not.

-V

I'll take a full responsibility if I'm wrong, so let's lynch this today.

Let's talk about Varsoon, then.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Do you think F-16 might be scum here trying to get town cred if SC flips town?

No, if he flips town, it means my read was more accurate. AND I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF PEOPLE ACCUSING ME OF WHITEKNIGHTING AND ASSUMING THAT WHENEVER I AM RIGHT, IT COULD BE BECAUSE I KNOW THAT PERSON'S AFFILIATION AS OPPOSED TO ME USING MY SCUMHUNTING ABILITY TO FIGURE IT OUT. SO, CUT IT OUT.

I liked this post a lot <3

[Casso the King of Seals]

Someone answer my question about what the relevant content for me to read over the past 30ish pages is.

You have recent scumteam experience with zmuffin. What do you think of his play?

His apathy is coming off town to me, if anything. :/

Why is that? Why do you think scumMuffin wouldnt be likely to pull the apathetic card? I can see where he wouldn't have direction this game, but I have trouble seeing him regard the game way that Thor currently is because he has the tendency to pick up on the cooler things going on.

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Who played in Hrry otter with me? Did Tammy get defensive/upset like this?

Whoever wrote this makes me feel weird

So you do believe that the scumteam is formed of "Nacho and a bunch of lurkers"? Meaning if you're wrong on me, your scumteam is... "a bunch of lurkers"?

this is like totally a valid concern but it's weird of a person named Nacho to ask something like that

Sorry skimming randomly at this point guys cuz idk what's going on

also is it just me or is Broseidon's ISO pretty underwhelming...it's almost like Empire lurking as scum or something and doing as little as possible

Large game + player list change the question significantly.

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This is perhaps the weirdest townread I've had on Bert in a while.

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When I ask you if you're going to tunnel Mara, you say that I'm setting you up a 1v1 between you and Mara.
When you are left to your own devices, you call Mara scum pretty fucking quickly.
What?

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If I'm not trying to sort you, what the hell are we doing now?

bullshit. you're not trying to sort me. you're talking at me, but nowhere in this back-and-forth have you tried to sort me. you're asking me shit questions and making snide comments here and there, but you're not trying to figure me out. you don't seem to actually care about my alignment, and it's sad that a majority of this player list is ignoring what you're doing.

you know your scum list is probably wrong and aren't really making efforts to refine it

part of that is because i'm only barely paying attention to this game (reading this game is just below banging my head against a wall on my to do list) and part of that is because i want flips before i start doubting my reads. i never assume my reads are accurate and always work on the assumption i could be wrong, but that doesn't mean i'm going to doubt my reads because i could be wrong. i don't even know why i have to explain this to you. it's fucking simple shit.

Your primary push is on me which you know isn't the type of thing that isn't going to go through anytime soon

*shrug* i don't like that barely anybody else is paying attention to how fucking scummy you're being, but i don't currently have the time to push it any harder than i'm already pushing it. i don't really give a shit; i'll push who i want to push.

you aren't really making an effort to sort out things any further than you have already even though the current position that you would be as a townie would be the type that's frustrating and generally not acceptable

i don't even know what this means, so i'm just going to assume it's drivel. i'm town, and if you're actually town here, you need to get over this dumb shit you're pushing on me

It's probably not worth the effort to respond to this.
Maybe later!

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Do you think F-16 might be scum here trying to get town cred if SC flips town?

No, if he flips town, it means my read was more accurate. AND I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF PEOPLE ACCUSING ME OF WHITEKNIGHTING AND ASSUMING THAT WHENEVER I AM RIGHT, IT COULD BE BECAUSE I KNOW THAT PERSON'S AFFILIATION AS OPPOSED TO ME USING MY SCUMHUNTING ABILITY TO FIGURE IT OUT. SO, CUT IT OUT.

I liked this post a lot <3

what

how can you like that post after big brother?

In mentor mentee when Notscience recruited me, I spent more energy as scum than I've spent as scum in a very very long time in order to call him scum for a correct townread on a townie. I can imagine why he wouldn't want to revisit that dark, dark road.

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Well this bert guy is town.

Why?

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Do you think F-16 might be scum here trying to get town cred if SC flips town?

No, if he flips town, it means my read was more accurate. AND I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF PEOPLE ACCUSING ME OF WHITEKNIGHTING AND ASSUMING THAT WHENEVER I AM RIGHT, IT COULD BE BECAUSE I KNOW THAT PERSON'S AFFILIATION AS OPPOSED TO ME USING MY SCUMHUNTING ABILITY TO FIGURE IT OUT. SO, CUT IT OUT.

I liked this post a lot <3

I'm not to incredibly fond of it.

I can see where you're going, I think but I don't agree with it.

When I ask you if you're going to tunnel Mara, you say that I'm setting you up a 1v1 between you and Mara.
When you are left to your own devices, you call Mara scum pretty fucking quickly.
What?

Yeah, he's town.

Probably

Pedit: take a wild guess

Do you still agree with it? What do you think of the deal proposition and him expressing doubt about it later?

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UnvotE

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Desperado, if the site didn't keep shitting out and I wasn't operating on limited time, there would be a pretty case.
But both of those conditions exist and so all I have for you is:

DAT ASS TOO FAT~

Where would you go if you had the strength of my strongarm to push a lynch through that wasn't SC or geists?

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Wrong adorable hydra, apologies.

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Oops last post I meant *townreading me*, not *townreading*

OK, so basically I think Casso/Nacho usually like can't resist buddying or some kind of charm/charisma exuding out naturally

I don't feel anything but robotic walls this game

People generally don't find me convincing until I find them something to convince them of. I occasionally drift through a day 1 similar to this day and unfortunately no one finds waffle nacho as charming or dashing as conviction nacho.

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Someone answer my question about what the relevant content for me to read over the past 30ish pages is.

You have recent scumteam experience with zmuffin. What do you think of his play?

His apathy is coming off town to me, if anything. :/

Why is that? Why do you think scumMuffin wouldnt be likely to pull the apathetic card?

Do you know of any games where scum-zmuffin was apathetic? The thing about his apathy that doesn't feel scummy to me is that he's unapologetic about it.

So's Desp.

:/

I'm starting to hate this game.

I can see where he wouldn't have direction this game, but I have trouble seeing him regard the game way that Thor currently is because he has the tendency to pick up on the cooler things going on.

Yes he does. The sardonic wit is missing and I'm not laughing out loud at the occasional post.

I can't think of any apathetic muffin games except for one where he was town and activity was shit. In that game, he was much more apologetic about his lacking, kept promising catchups and taking the lead roles and not quite getting there: he's lacking that in this game. I also feel like the way muffin approaches his scumgame is similar to how cabd used to before he got lazy and started slacking; his scum game looks pretty different when he plays and it's hard to peg him for being scum based on the big stuff like "lurky, aggressive". So this apathetic but not apathetic state is cause for alarm.

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the way you all are talking about how he/she is nothing like him/her as town or scum in past games

leads me to believe that he/she is intentionally playing differently to meta-dodge

i mean, that's my first inclination in my head when you say that

it's like how one time I went all serious just because I wanted to give them a different look in one of my past scum games. Change it up, you know?

I mean, muffin could just play up his town meta if he/she wanted to, probably, right? Plus, all the attention being given after he/she won a scum game lately and got nommed?

just my thoughts, as I have no past experience with him/her

This actually isn't too far off from my thoughts, Bert.

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I'm probably going to pass out now. I might not be able to post again until Monday, don't be sad.

The seal wagon is not a bad wagon at all. (Yes, Bert, in hard boiled I realized for sure nacho was scum for unnatural sorting of me, but it was mostly based on something I would have expected town him to pick up on about town me. I'm not so sure muffin is as easy to sort as I am, and it seemed really clear to me that nacho was maneuvering around who was obvtown to the crowd and creating noise that I didn't think he would create.)

(Speaking of Nacho, maraca's crap "gambit" had nothing to do with pushing me to look obvtown and if you are somehow town you're looking at that far too simplistically. Mara betrayed her underhanded motivations when she said she didn't push me as hard as she planned. You don't "plan" to push people for reactions as town, not in the beginning of the game. And not in the fashion as she did, unless you're a complete amateur, so if you and she will admit she has no clue whatsoever that she's doing in this game I'll think of stepping back, but in order to gauge reactions on someone you have to know them...you have to know what to push...you have to know some way of reading them. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of m game wouldn't have needed to do that. And her push was not in any way shape or form one to figure out my alignment, it was purely to piss me off, purely to discredit me. That is 100% evident by the ensuing days, so you comparing it to hard boiled is flawed because the motivation was not the same or even close.)

You're probably scum though so :/

I'm still not voting stuff crust because bar soon amused me.

Not voting muffin.

Surprised Sakura isn't a thing.

Would probs go back to voting BBQ, but meh.

Let's lynch maraca though!!!

Maras scumgames are interesting because they look pretty different from one another and are hard to peg down in most explanations of meta. They differ so strongly I think because Mara plays mostly from the heart as scum (like I've been doing recently), and she wouldn't lead out the planned emotional manipulation effort to discredit you. Cabd could plan it lately, but that's where Hard Boiled comes into play again: it was a poignant as hell experience where Cabd and I were basically wondering what the fuck we did to deserve an attack against of us that held that ridiculous tendency and laughed because we were both good scum players but we realized deep deep down we were completely and supremely fucked. I cannot see Cabd being so idiotic or suicidal to endorse or suggest a plan that went down that horror road ever again. I can see Mara making a weird push on you as town.

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Falcon - you're not disappointed in me at all for having a meltdown and getting pissed? You don't think it's awful of me at all to be voting mc maraca for what from an outside view could be omgus?

I wish you hadn't but I understand why you did. I skimmed through your ISO in Mafia behind the Maiden after seeing it being referenced in Black Flag to get a perspective of your playstyle. It seems to be a darker side of your play that rarely resurfaces now and MC's attack was likely a trigger either intentional or unintentional.

If I had a townread on them, I would've tried to get you to stop but I don't.

On another note, I've been wanting to play a game with Norlkaz for a while so looking forward to what he has to say.

He's not actually that cool, sorry to disappoint

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Sakura and pieguy are where I'm leaning atm.

either i'm super bad at reading pieguy or he's town here

if casso doesn't happen, i could get behind a sakura wagon, but really, it would be more of a policy lynch than anything for me

i think i have too many town reads atm

No you're probably fine

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You need to tell me why scumcabd fakeclaims masons at like L-8 or some shit like that with two superstrong players (nacho and ffery) townreading the fuck out him, with a backup townasfuck read from generic.

Numbers matter. Nacho's slot had a wagon on him and plenty of people were attacking ffery. Town or not, your wagon wasn't going to get derailed on their word.

If I couldn't get things done with people suspecting the shit out of me, I would be experiencing a lot of sad days where Nacho didn't get his way.

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Also

Unvote

because fferyllt's mad at me.

Don't like this. ffery has consistently been throwing her entire weight to back up someone playing blatantly anti-town regardless of their affiliation.

You are harping too hard on this point; net result of gambit from scumMC side is locking down Tammy vote on scum and making Tammy useless for like a day when it's likely she would be useless anyways. So the antitown effects you are talking about actually aren't that horrible.

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Uh what? She does that a ton as both alignments, her coming out that she fabircated a town read on me to gage reactions would hardly be suprising.

huh
this is one reason why I don't buy her reasoning for thinking my 1v1 with Sakura is scummy
like I had a general idea that was similar to this but confirming she explicitly fabricates reads as town to get reactions makes me even more confident 0.0

Fabricated interactions feel fake. Fake feels scummy. Hence, if you fake interactions, you should not be surprised that they seem scummy as hell to others.

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TOWN+

1. Tammy – Obvious town
2. geists (fferyllt + Natirasha) – Town based on ffery’s Nacho-push, and later reactions. Nat hasn’t posted as much but it may be a good sign considering he is better scum player.
3. pieguyn – I like his pushes and stance changes on Sakura, and DOMO, and his later reaction to Thor and the pushback. I see a lot of parallels between his back and forth here and his back and forth with Varsoon in Touhou.¹
4. Bert(Rofl) – Bert’s posts feel like town-Bert. His elaboration on Generic and Sakura reads made sense as did his push on Geists.
5. Desperado – I like his attack on me based on BB:HoH. It makes sense from town-Desp and not much from scum-Desp especially when he forgot all about it and tried to get me to vote SC.

TOWN

6. DOMO – His pushes and paranoia, and activity seemed genuine and unlike scumgame.²
7. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) – Their push against Stuffed as well their uncertainty seemed genuine. Still don’t like the lack of reading my posts though.
8. Generic – Some of his reactions and pushes seems townish but I am somewhat paranoid about this read.³
9. Ser Arthur Dayne (pitoli) – Not sure but Tammy said he is town so I’ll say town for now.
10. zMuffinMan (talah) – Very different from his scumgames and recent posts feel more like towngame.⁴
11. Sakura Hana – Read on Thor seemed townish. Will need to check meta to see what she is capable of as scum.⁵

LEFTOVERS/YET TO BE SORTED

12. Cephrir – Read stale due to inactivity⁶
13. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) – Will explain later⁷
14. goodmorning
15. MafiaSSK (roflwaffles)
16. BROseidon
17. Norlkaz (Brian Skies)
18. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) – Will sort on Day 3.
19. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) – Tunelling is annoying. I can’t objectively judge someone that is tunneling me right now.

---

Pretty sure everyone in my town+ pile is town. I'll double check with Pieguyn's meta to make absolutely sure. As for the rest, I am not yet really confident in any of those reads. Will probably have to do it tomorrow.

Muffin lower, cephrir higher, Maraca and morning higher, bro higher, Sakura lower?

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Desperado lower.

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VOTE: Stuffed Crust

I had some song lyrics for the gasp vote here, but unfortunately forgot them because tired.

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And unfortunately I can't even do it

VOTE: Sakura Hana

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Sakura and pieguy are where I'm leaning atm.

either i'm super bad at reading pieguy or he's town here

if casso doesn't happen, i could get behind a sakura wagon, but really, it would be more of a policy lynch than anything for me

i think i have too many town reads atm

No you're probably fine

Read changed?

Muffin lower, cephrir higher, Maraca and morning higher, bro higher, Sakura lower?

Or maybe not.

And unfortunately I can't even do it

VOTE: Sakura Hana

Yeah, I'd be comfortable with my vote here, too.

No, that was sarcasm re: muffin man.

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Muffin lower, cephrir higher, Maraca and morning higher, bro higher, Sakura lower?

Desperado lower.

Why Desperado lower? I thought his BB:HoH reference was pretty towny. Also, can you explain the Sakura read?

Desperado is lower because he seems fairly townie but nothing he's posted seems incredibly difficult to fake. Why was his HoH reference townie?

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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
pieguyn
Sakura Hana
Cephrir
Desperado

^ Here are the scums. Please feel free to create a wagon on any.

Well if you're going to wagon anything in there please do so on me so i dont need to bother with this game anymore that i can't even keep up with atm.

You seem to be able to keep up a little bit.
There's also an invitation to the ballroom if you care to accept it.

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because, he is literally the only one, who has had people suspecting who hasn't had a wagon grown on him.

all game, he's done shit, and he's been treating me like scum without actually calling me scum, inflating my push, making everything I've done seem trivial (even when it wasn't) and something newbish

and degraded every single thing Cabd and I have done.

He's doing shit now, don't you think?

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You ready to catch up?

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Maraca/Goodmorning are masons.

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I'm not voting Stuffed Crust for a lot of reasons.

For one, when Mac opened the game he seemed fairly light, casual, smooth, confident. I don't feel his openings come across like that when he is scum. He also engaged us on our townread of him early, and followed up on it later which is a forwent sign since scum usually aren't bothered by townreads in them, especially when they are getting wagoned.

Varsoon was pretty easy and confident in his towniness and defiant as hell, don't remember seeing that in Xenogears. I mean, sure, he had fun with Charles Barkley and all that jazz but this confidence isnt centered around his slam dunk case bullshit; it's centered around how he is town with a holy mission and he will pour his soul into that mission. I especially liked his Dat Ass posts and his red tie posts; we have seen Varsoon as scum under pressure situations before, and he never manages to come out quite the same. What is lacking in what Varsoon has posted so far is his conspiracy theories and his crazy crazy brand of towniness, but I still think that it is closer to his normal town game than his scum game.

I like Macs confidence and the way that he goes about his pushes. I can't ever remember seeing a Mac scum game where he went after a hard to reach target as confidently as he's doing here, and I like the way he's handling geists voting him.

What I realized when retreading is that there's not as much as I'd like in the Iso from Mac, but I still think that him making the pushes he's been making under the pressure he's been under makes him more town than anything.

So, Sakura. Shoot again.

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Wasn't that a gambit?

He retracted and made it a serious claim.

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Bullet flies through the darkness, finds nothing but air.
No thoughts on my town case on him?

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Bullet flies through the darkness, finds nothing but air.
No thoughts on my town case on him?

it doesnt feel like you to give such an easy townread on someone like Mac/Varsoon

Why is it an easy town case?

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And the Mac bits?

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Why does it matter about the Mac bits when Varsoon can do it?!?!?!

Exactly...

Admitedly I've never played against Scum Mac, so I'm reading Varsoon.

I'm hoping that Mac's comment was sarcasm.
Why is Varsoon scummy?

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GiF: If I was scum I wouldn't push your lynch through because I'd be instalynched for reading you wrong
GiF: Fuck it they're scum and if I'm wrong then fuck it!

^ Doesn't make sense. Tell me, when we flip town, does GiF get instalynched? or do people shrug their shoulders?

His read on us is really annoying me.

I will mostly shrug my shoulders but will admit that I'm not entirely comfortable with him either.

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I see your point with the comparison to nine plus plus. I will say that he's been a hell of a lot more fluid than he was there and that he didn't vote with horrible initial reasons such as "I agree with you that Saki is scum".

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Why don't you trust my read on Mac? It feels like you aren't trusting it because you don't know where else to go.

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So... You do trust my read on Mac and just don't know what else to do?

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Because that's not what your initial response to the town case seemed like. And if that was the case, why aren't you telling me to get someone for you to sheep and instead are settling for the largest wagon?

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What have I missed?

Because it look slike we're +30 pages since last time I was here and the vote count looks basically identical.

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Unvote: Sakura
Vote: Stuffed Crust

Pretty sure he's town.
Discuss.

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@Geist - Meaningless side-line vote is meaningless and side-lined.

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@BROseiden - what's your read on Stuffed Crust?

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If this turns into another NY 164 my haiku-writing will start a hell of a lot earlier this time.

It's already well on its way. It's huge, says nothing, and people are scared to lynch anyone else.

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I'm literally looking at both of these posts in awe

Mine is infinitely superior though. Also, I'm now voting your top scum read, why does that bother you? I stopped defending my buddy and opted to bus, isn't this a win?

Pedit- I don't care, pick one of us and rock on with it. Why do you need my approval on who to vote?

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Also you misunderstood my 2079 - "anyone else" is not = to "Stuffed Crust" It's equal to "anyone else".

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SC has more votes.

So we and you are winning then, right? So what's your issue?

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That's not what I was talking about but it's a valid observation.

It was a valid observation when I made it a week ago.

I don't have one? You're the one that has an issue with SC being the lynch.

And you're the one who quoted me voting him and made rolly eyes - so what was the point of that if you had no issue with my vote?