NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[geists]

hi guys

VOTE: geists

[geists]

Nacho, can we make a truce until day 3? Best friends: neither of us suspects the other until day 3, we don't kill each other until day 3 if scum (or at least fight hard for an alternate kill if they really want to kill our slots that badly), we don't play dirty with power roles until day 3. I think it will be most to our benefit if we are both town, but if one of us is scum, I think it will work to the townie's benefit. Do you agree?

Shameless theft, this.

[geists]

OK, I have to ask this, but is fferyllt a real person?

I only ever see them in hydras, I have a theory they are a dummy account people can use to create theoretical hydras because they have no friends... Natirasha, im looking at you here

Seeing fferyllt is sort of like seeing the Budha on the road.

[geists]

fferyllt is wonderful SHAME ON YOU

Vote: Gen

You spelled my name in full. Scum tell.

[geists]

Oh hell yes Ceph is townreading me.

/beach

[geists]

Mastin did it better.

Meta fail.

[geists]

@F-16 It had never clicked that you were in the hunterxhunterx game until I looked up the link to that truce offer.

[geists]

Fuck all you people, none of you are obvtown.

Also Tammy I don't think I've been the target of any rants yet, so you owe Generic and me cookies.

[geists]

Official town block application form v1

I,

Natirasha

am applying to MC Maraca's AwesomeSauce Town Block. My townreads are:

talah, because he hasn't posted.
roflcopter, something about repentence.
BROseidon, for doing something.
MCMaraca, so I can nightkill them tonight.
Generic, because he likes spouting lies on the internet.
Not f-16 because he promised me a full meta report on site chat and I need him to give him reason to give me one.

I think I am a good fit for the townblock because

you need a jester.

Attached is my payment,

fferyllt

made payable to MC Maraca.

[geists]

My townbloc has cooler spelling and bourbon.

[geists]

Official town block application form v1

I,

Natirasha

am applying to MC Maraca's AwesomeSauce Town Block. My townreads are:

talah, because he hasn't posted.
roflcopter, something about repentence.
BROseidon, for doing something.
MCMaraca, so I can nightkill them tonight.
Generic, because he likes spouting lies on the internet.
Not f-16 because he promised me a full meta report on site chat and I need him to give him reason to give me one.

I think I am a good fit for the townblock because

you need a jester.

Attached is my payment,

fferyllt

made payable to MC Maraca.

traitor

[geists]

ffery is that you?

BRO if you can't tell when I'm posting by now you never will.

[geists]

ffery is that you?

BRO if you can't tell when I'm posting by now you never will.

Can you get a schtick like mollie has to make it easy to tell you apart?

Also, what's your opinion on MC?

He enjoys himself more and is more wheeeee MAFIA! when he's scum.

And he knows his meta really, really well.

[geists]

ffery is that you?

BRO if you can't tell when I'm posting by now you never will.

I still use the syryana guide to fferyposting. Need a link bro?

Yes

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5132727

1414 and 1416 have some important addenda.

[geists]

Nati has a lot of the same moments of terseness and paranoia, though, so I understand how there is more confusion between our posts.

You really gotta judge it based on the brashness.

[geists]

I've been desensitized. :/

[geists]

VOTE: geists

That's not the answer I'd expect from town-ffery.

Then you better check your ffery-models for updates.

[geists]

In all fairness, MC is obvtown.

pedit: It's not a model thing, it's an "I'd expect you to have noticed something" read.

Dude.

[geists]

I have appearances to keep up.

[geists]

I'm just not ready to get it in gear. The goofing around part of the game is my favorite.

[geists]

Yeah, it's town BRO.

[geists]

And...F-16.


Alright. Cabd. for now.

[geists]

Town, I think.

[geists]

I could be really misreading something. There's an aspect or two of mafia that I really, really suck at.

[geists]

I could be really misreading something. There's an aspect or two of mafia that I really, really suck at.

What was this in reference to?

My reasons for thinking F-16 might be town.

I'll table it for now.

[geists]

I don't want to air it yet.

[geists]

She role me they were getting worse.

-Nat

[geists]

I could be really misreading something. There's an aspect or two of mafia that I really, really suck at.

What was this in reference to?

My reasons for thinking F-16 might be town.

I'll table it for now.

I'd rather you air it, actually. Or will it mean we're walking through your line of investigations?

Officially calling this a bogey and doing a minor reset on F-16.

I feel the itch to meta something, but I'm still absurdly short on sleep. Maybe tomorrow.

In other news, I'm considering a townbloc open door policy for your in-thread masonry . There absolutely won't be any of that vodka gatorade crap. Perhaps some sriracha vodka could be arranged.

[geists]

If it becomes either really relevant or really irrelevant later, I'll probably explain.

[geists]

Somebody talk to me about fery's pace when it comes to reading people.

Best I ever did at MS was posting a correct and serious townread 22 posts into a game. I usually have some tentative reads within 4-5 pages in a mini or micro sized game. It's more variable the larger the game.

[geists]

ffery, what are your reads on Cabd, Brian, and Pitoli?

You've picked three players whom I don't read quickly.

I have strong reason to think that Cabd is town. Or he's gambiting, but I don't see the scum spin on what he's doing right now.

Awkward entrances are not a scum tell for Brian. Nor are they a town tell. I'll take my time to form a read on Brian. From what I remember in a recent meta dive you also badly misread him not too long ago in a game.

Pitoli has slow, tentative starts in mafia from what I've seen. She has a huge run of town games at MS. I was one of the players in her scum game. I tried to apply her scum meta in the Walking Dead game and came away with an erroneous scum read. I went after her at the start of day 2 shortly before she replaced out. IIRC Metal Sonic replaced her, and was lynched a few days later. I'd gone back and forth on that slot since day 1, but if memory serves didn't vote MS on the day he was lynched.

[geists]

How long do you usually take to read me?

Who is this?

If Nero's doing his usual things I can read him pretty quickly. I've never played with scum-Nero, though, so when I feel like his game doesn't seem quite the usual, I default to null or null/scum until the read finally firms up. It will be interesting to finally play a game where he's scum one of these days.

If GiF is doing his usual things I also get a read on him pretty quickly, but I footnote the hell out of it because I have a bad habit of townreading him when he's scum.

[geists]

So why do you think I'm voting you

Is this to me?

I don't know and right now I don't care. If you're town, I trust you'll eventually see something that tells you I'm town. So far, you've never stayed wrong, though there was that one game where you stayed wrong long enough that Nacho and I would have been lynched if Syr wasn't asleep!

[geists]

Youre coming off too strong Cabd.

[geists]

Nats

Almost got you too.

[geists]

Cowards. Where have you all gone?

[geists]

Hi GiF.

So, besides me, who is scum?

I blame the bourbon.

[geists]

Doesn't really matter what Mara and Cabd look like. I'm accepting that they are town barring proof otherwise.

What did you think about the exchange between Mara and Ceph?

What do you think about GM?

And what are your thoughts about Brian? I think it's too soon to try to sort him. F-16's comment about in thread tells is intriguing, but I feel like proceeding with caution.

[geists]

How long do you usually take to read me?

Who is this?

If Nero's doing his usual things I can read him pretty quickly. I've never played with scum-Nero, though, so when I feel like his game doesn't seem quite the usual, I default to null or null/scum until the read finally firms up. It will be interesting to finally play a game where he's scum one of these days.

If GiF is doing his usual things I also get a read on him pretty quickly, but I footnote the hell out of it because I have a bad habit of townreading him when he's scum.

Btw f16, this post has given me a pause on my geists read. I don't like this post at all.

You should probably take an "Intro to Ffery-posting" class". There are a few professors in this game.

[geists]

For the record, Generic, I think youre attributing my bravado to fferyllt's analysis. I've been pretty much AWOL at this point this game.

[geists]

Yeah and I'm saying that I think you're appointing my(Natirasha) worldview to her(fferyllt) posting. We've not spoken at all about this game at this juncture.

[geists]

It seemed like you were mixing them up, mostly the pronoun usage. If you were addressing us by hydra then okay fine. You'll still have to wait for ffery to post cuz I haven't even began thinking about this game really.

[geists]

Sure. You have anything you wanna chat to me regardless?

[geists]

They were part me, part her. We have a tendency to overlap each other. Everything after ~page 4 is fferyllt. That's when I had to go to work.

[geists]

OK, now i see what you mean, did i use 'he'?

If you want to differ the response to the head who put you in the shit in the first place that's fine, but my vote is standing so i would have a chat with your partner at some point before she makes matters worse for you both.

Hi.

[geists]

Hey generic, I'm a little pissed that you called me out last night, I acknowledged and was ready to engage, and your next post in the game does not address your concerns with me.

[geists]

You invoked me, and I'm here. I assumed you wanted back and forth, not a wall.

The early pages of a game make me think of a pack of dogs checking each other out, sniffing butts, etc. They hold still for a moment, and then either they bare teeth and growl, or the ears go back and they're friends. This game, for whatever reason, I feel like I'm first in line to be checked out and I'm putting up with it in fairly good humor so far. I stress "so far" because overall my mood this weekend is pretty stormy, and that's going to bleed into most if not all of my games.

I''m not sure if it was Nero or GiF who asked the question about how quickly I read him. I kinda think Nero. The stuff of reads comes under my personal heading of "arms race". Unless I am actually making a case for someone being town or scum, I don't get very specific about exactly how easy players are to read or specifically what I"m looking for in players I am familiar with.

Also, both players know me and know how accurate my reads have been historically. GiF knows me quite well, given the number of games we've played, including our hydra games. I'm not giving him anything more than I must in terms of how to go about getting townreads from me. He's already too good at it. There are a couple of recent games where I townread him when he was scum. Though in one, he was hydraing with Nacho, and the townread had a pretty high nacho component. :/

Anyway. Any player who asks me in the early game how easy they are to read is going to get handwaving and bullshit when I'm town. When I'm scum, I might actually make something plausible up because it's the easier, less attention-attracting path.

[geists]

You invoked me, and I'm here. I assumed you wanted back and forth, not a wall.

1. The early pages of a game make me think of a pack of dogs checking each other out, sniffing butts, etc. They hold still for a moment, and then either they bare teeth and growl, or the ears go back and they're friends. This game, for whatever reason, I feel like I'm first in line to be checked out and I'm putting up with it in fairly good humor so far. I stress "so far" because overall my mood this weekend is pretty stormy, and that's going to bleed into most if not all of my games.

2. I''m not sure if it was Nero or GiF who asked the question about how quickly I read him. I kinda think Nero. The stuff of reads comes under my personal heading of "arms race". Unless I am actually making a case for someone being town or scum, I don't get very specific about exactly how easy players are to read or specifically what I"m looking for in players I am familiar with.

3. Also, both players know me and know how accurate my reads have been historically. GiF knows me quite well, given the number of games we've played, including our hydra games. I'm not giving him anything more than I must in terms of how to go about getting townreads from me. He's already too good at it. There are a couple of recent games where I townread him when he was scum. Though in one, he was hydraing with Nacho, and the townread had a pretty high nacho component. :/

4. Anyway. Any player who asks me in the early game how easy they are to read is going to get handwaving and bullshit when I'm town. When I'm scum, I might actually make something plausible up because it's the easier, less attention-attracting path.

1. You are preaching to the choir on that one, I am mr emotional play, ask natirasha on that front. So if you feel like getting snarky with me go ahead, just be prepared for me to bring similar back if im on a dark cloud day :p

Snark is pretty much one of my signatures as a player. Nacho has some theories about how the nature of the snark correlates with my alignment, but I feel like it's actually a moving target atm, and is always pretty context-specific.

2. OK, that sort of explains the vagueness of the response. I would point out I agree at such an early stage in the game full reads on people are pointless and you can only get gut reads or leanings at best (even worse that most of the day so far has been RVS)... It was however only a question of how quickly you read them rather than what your read currently was so you could have just left it at 'fairly quickly, will tell you when I have something of note on you'.

I could have, but this isn't just about answering them (or in this exchange, just about answering you). I'm putting down some data about my approach to the game for players who don't know me that well.

3. Again this is good to know and seems from the heart, but completely irrelevant to the situation you were answering at the time. These guys who know how accurate you have been in the past have asked you how quickly you read them and you didn't just answer that but create a series of get outs that covers you in case you are put on the spot over it later.

I guarantee I'll have an emphatic read on them well before this game day ends. I hope it's also an accurate read.

4. THIS is closer to an actual explanation, and does begin to explain the comments of others pointing to my lack of play time with yourself... Why bother with 2 and 3 when 1 and 4 would have covered a starting point to our discussion?

Because that's how my thought process works. And because as I mentioned in answer to your (2) I'm not answering this only for you.

Laughably I actually am starting to think you ffery and I have similar mindsets with regards to mafia games and how we approach them/post in them... I wonder if that will translate into a better understanding of eachothers mindset as we move forwards.

Maybe. I'm a pretty un-self-aware player in terms of understanding specifically what I do that leads to particular players townreading or scumreading me. I play in body-of-work mode. I don't expect someone to read a single post and think TOWNTOWNTOWN. I make up for it with trajectory, mostly. Except where it doesn't make sense, I keep my stances pretty transparent. Though incoming stance changes sometimes aren't well telegraphed, they are usually well-formed once they hit the thread.

Answer me this as best as you can. If I had posted the following would you have raised an eyebrow:

"I think I can get a good read on Mara because I have played many games with her and generally can tell her alignment withing the first day or so... but then again I usually misread her scum games as town."

Because that above is me basically saying I can read Mara but only when she is town... and therefore basically always townread her. And that's exactly how your comment on GIF felt.

It depends on where in the thread a comment like that happens. I do tune in when I sense hedginess in an actual read. But, ability to read is something that's verifiable either via other players, or via meta dive if I think it's research-worthy. And it depends on whether Mara objects to the statement.

And that's probably the main driver to why I said what I said the way I said it. Nero knows that I've never played with him when he was scum. he knows I usually get a decent townread early unless there's something that seems off about his game. He also knows that until I figured some things out about his town game I was by default scumreading him, and I actively pursued his lynch during the first game day of our first 2 games together. If I were to express confidence that I'll easily spot scum-him I'd expect him to challenge me.

Same with my comments about GiF. If they aren't accurate or at least defensible, then I expect him to take me to task.

[geists]

Oh hell you drew scum.

VOTE: Casso

[geists]

Oh hell you drew scum.

VOTE: Casso

Nope!

Strongest off notes since Buzzword, Nacho. "Nope!" doesnt' offset that.

[geists]

Where are my off notes?

Your focus on Brian.

[geists]

Specifically I'm seeing parallels with how in Buzzword you jumped on the weakness in orcinus' entrance and encouraged/supported others' reads. At least with orcinus it was a genuinely off entrance. Brian's initial posts almost always look strained and uncomfortable.

[geists]

I don't feel like there really is that much anti-Brian sentiment flying around?

If you want me to step out of your line of questioning, just say the word.

Give me some time to work through it. I may be off base, but Nati also thinks Nacho is looking scummy.

[geists]

I liked Mara's early push on Cephrir. The target in and of itself isn't really that special, but the way she went about it seemed good to me (mostly the whole gearing up for a push and then completely letting it go part, that felt nice). So generic, if you're getting an early townread on Mara based on her initial posting, we're probably in agreement.

You actually need mara's posts to read them?

[geists]

I liked Mara's early push on Cephrir. The target in and of itself isn't really that special, but the way she went about it seemed good to me (mostly the whole gearing up for a push and then completely letting it go part, that felt nice). So generic, if you're getting an early townread on Mara based on her initial posting, we're probably in agreement.

You actually need mara's posts to read them?

Yes? Cabd forming a town block with himself in the center early game doesn't exactly seem like something that's unlikely to be coming from Cabd-scum. Why do you disagree?

In those terms, because of stuff he's not doing. We've talked en hydra about what is different in his town vs scum machinations.

[geists]

I also didn't have a good townread on BRO until about two pages ago. What do you think of that?

I think Bro reads deserve caution, but I dunno. Maybe I'm seeing stuff you aren't, or vice versa. With town-Nacho, you're usually ahead of me on reads.

[geists]

Specifically I'm seeing parallels with how in Buzzword you jumped on the weakness in orcinus' entrance and encouraged/supported others' reads. At least with orcinus it was a genuinely off entrance. Brian's initial posts almost always look strained and uncomfortable.

I don't think Brian has a tendency to look weak early game. I thought there was clear motivation in F-16s opening to stay alive to sort out Nacho-scum, and I thought that it was strange Brian immediately attacked that, especially considering the mentor mentee game that recently ended which proves F-16 can read me pretty competently.

And didn't you get some questions about the original offer in the hunterxhunterx game?

I didn't question it in thread, but I damn sure got buldermar's take on it in our hydra discussions.

[geists]

1. Ffery. Let's make the same deal that F-16 and I made, minus the suspecting part.

There are two of us and we're both suspicious right now.

UNVOTE

Nati and I will talk about it.

[geists]

Hiatus good enough?

[geists]

Hiatus good enough?

Hiatus not needed; that was the part of the deal that didn't apply to us.

That was to f-16.

[geists]

@Giests-Who wrote post 219?

ffery.

Am I speaking to Nero this time?

[geists]

You or GiF ever going to push a case on me?

[geists]

Nope.

But I figurd GiF was probably getting a little antsy.

[geists]

You or GiF ever going to push a case on me?

As much as I would like to cap fery-scum d1, prob not until later. I'm just gonna keep you on your toe for now.

sorry to disappoint.

[geists]

But I figurd GiF was probably getting a little antsy.

I am a man of patience. Well, most of the time.

There was this one game where I didn't react to about 4 different naked/caseless votes on day 1. It kinda pissed the players off. I was tempted to see if I could piss you off in a similar way, but I like you too much. :/

[geists]

One completed game with Generic. The one where SoS was scum with him.

Nati has a lot of game experience with him. Hoping that will negate the need for any massive meta research.

I have a predisposition about people with little exposure to my playstyle scumreading me. So right now he's kinda basking in that warm glow.

[geists]

I'm listening.

[geists]

actually I'll listen in an hour or so.

[geists]

One completed game with Generic. The one where SoS was scum with him.

Nati has a lot of game experience with him. Hoping that will negate the need for any massive meta research.

I have a predisposition about people with little exposure to my playstyle scumreading me. So right now he's kinda basking in that warm glow.

You're missing "but I think he's [alignment]" part.

That's because I have him as null at the moment. I liked the attack. The follow-up seemed overly agreeable and out of synch with his vote.

[geists]

Reads are strong enough that Nati isn't interested in non-aggression treaties.

[geists]

Okay, here's what I thought:

Spoiler: ffery

I see some parallel’s to Buzzword although with a lot of major differences:
Firstly, Nacho in Buzzword went up against Orc because your slot (squared) did. He immediately dropped suspicion on Orc once he returned from a brief period of inactivity – the scum motivation clearly being he didn’t want to go against you. Here on the other hand, you indicated that Brian suspicion is unjustified – or at least, that is the implicit vibe I received from you. Tammy opposed the push as well. Assuming she is town, Nacho as scum would be pushing a player that could alienate his biggest threats – this is something I haven’t seen a parallel with in Buzzword. Let’s say he wants to push the Brian lynch, who will help him? Not you, Tammy, or even Cephrir who despite saying that Brian was trying too hard now has a townread on him. Probably not Pitoli who he is voting. Perhaps he expected me to help but I made it clear I am not sure either way about Brian. So, I am not seeing the same parallel w.r.t Brian and Orc. What did I miss?

Spoilers are cool.

Spoiler: F16

Orcinus was a symptom in that game, and Nacho's target choices (not just orci) were only marginally about what buldermar and I were thinking. There was a deadly beauty to that game that often happens in the micro games. You wind up with a player list that is strong and is familiar with each other and the available lynch-path for scum is on a razor's edge. IMO, this game is going to be somewhat similar despite the size because the player list is strong. Even the "weak" players aren't really weak are experienced, know most of the player list, and more importantly are known - they are readable, though it may take a lot of time and effort in some cases. The scum in this game have their work cut out. Town may go haring of after a mislynch, but the circling and testing so far suggests to me that town is being cautious and cagey here now that the meet and greet is drawing to a close.

Eventually paranoia may tear town apart, but early day mislynches probably won't come easy.

There's more, but I want to see more from Casso before I break out new cans of worms.

[geists]

Ffery overestimates my attachment to Generic. We have..1 Completed game together, Mainstream Micro 4(he as the main head of Minions). But I've been stalking him offsite for a while now so I'm fairly familiar with his play.

[geists]

Where did I claim ignorance of my meta? I have a very detailed memory of stuff I do. What I lack is an understanding of how some people process that info. It's an ongoing and neverending process of reverse engineering.

[geists]

You are boring me Tammy

I think it's you and Nati who are the in-thread masons.

[geists]

Mrow!

[geists]

So, do you agree with your partner's vote, bro?

[geists]

Oh, okay. Can you neighorize me tonight, Cabd?

[geists]

Heh, of course.

[geists]

For the record, I think Tammy's kinda off this game.

[geists]

Oh, okay. Can you neighorize me tonight, Cabd?

Like I'd neighborize anyone else except your slot~

fucking chills this post gave me.

[geists]

I'm sorry, Tammy, but you're shield of obvtown really doesn't work on me.

[geists]

For the record, I think Tammy's kinda off this game.

ate you all fucking scum?

Like this has been the most lighthearted and happy I have been to enter a game in a really long fucking time. I've been looking forward to this game and happy as fuck I drew town, there is no bloody way I look off and you all are just ruining this for me,

This feels genuine. And it's pretty much exactly how I felt about the first 10 pages of the game.

[geists]

Well there we go.

[geists]

Hey, we've been iced over for the last two days Tammy. Literally can't drive.

[geists]

K so can we all cut the crap and lynch that Otter thing?

[geists]

nachothor

[geists]

I think a strong read would have warranted a held vote. But I'm not penalising them for pulling out, just think they should hold strong when they have a strong suspicion. My vote isn't likely to move until I am satisfied I have got them wrong or someone more suspicious pings my interest. As I said before I didn't like their stoking the fire in the mara and tammy spat.

That's fine. But don't expect me to jump and address it every time you make a snide comment about what you don't like about my play. I know my motivations. I am confident that my motivations and in-thread behaviors will be aligned. And I am also confident that my alignment will become obvious as the data I put into the thread mounts up. It's my responsibility to provide data for other players to analyse as much as it is to meet my wincon.

If you're town, your responsibility to read me accurately based on that data.

[geists]

Well, you certainly missed a nuance in all that. I alluded in-thread that Nati had concerns about Tammy in post 435. In 497, Nati confirmed that.

And in perhaps the most pronounced instance of hydra dissonance that I have ever participated in, Nati and I had simultaneious and completely opposite reactions to one of Tammy's posts during the back-and-forth with Mara. here and immediately below, here.

Our consensus read is tammytown.

[geists]

So, far I am confident in two strong townreads: Tammy and Geists. I am leaning town on Mara-Cabd, and Cephrir but not as strongly. Everyone else is in the "Yet to be sorted" pile.

This worries me a little bit. You've waffled somewhat on me in the two games we've played where I was scum, and the waffles were at least partially meta-based.

When I'm scum and you're town you scare the hell out of me because I keep expecting all the meta-based knowledge you have of my game to snap into focus. This town read seems really, really easy and lacking in "I've been wrong before" footnotes.

[geists]

VOTE: koreanbbq

Ok fine I was being mean to generic a bit but that ain't the way to treat the tired

old

man.

P-Edit: mislynch, of course :p

Was this Nero? Why aren't you telling me I'm wrong? I liked your slots post about wondering how many posts Varsoon had in SC, but beyond that I'm waiting for the oomph.

ㅜㅐㅔㄷ.
ㅠㄷㅊ면ㄷ ㅑ 애ㅜ'ㅅ ㅜㄷㄷㅇ 새.
쏘두 조ㅛ 야우'ㅅ ㅛㅐㅕ 묹ㄷㄱ 소드?

google translate failed miserably:

ㅜ ㅐ ㅔ c.
C c ㅊmyeon ㅑ ㅜ ㅠ Ke 'c c o oi new ㅜ.
Joe Cho Yau ㅛ 'ㅐ ㅕ ㅛ mun oi c: a sword?

[geists]

I haven't seen a single game where you attacked Nacho as scum to the extent you have here and with the confidence you showed here. I did have an initial townread on you which was shaky and I did question you to see if it would firm up. The Nacho-attack was completely outside of what I would expect you to do as scum.

MC Maraca, can you explain your townreads on Brian and GM?

I don't recall ever attacking nacho as scum, so that at least is currently valid.

[geists]

My jokes are golden CABD.

You're going to suffer doubly for this post!

[geists]

Yeah, no that was totally a defense. While I agree with what F-16 said about the Buzzword game and Nacho's early stance on orcinus being shaped by mine, I laid out why I thought he was bringing the wrong lesson from that game given my actual point about orcinus, which was that there was precious little room for mislynches in that game. And Nacho wound up targeting two other of my townreads that day.

[geists]

Yeah, no that was totally a defense. While I agree with what F-16 said about the Buzzword game and Nacho's early stance on orcinus being shaped by mine, I laid out why I thought he was bringing the wrong lesson from that game given my actual point about orcinus, which was that there was precious little room for mislynches in that game. And Nacho wound up targeting two other of my townreads that day.

So you are saying that his (unjustified) focus on Brian was because Brian was one of the few people he thought he could mislynch?

If only mafia were that straightforward.

What initially caught my eye was Nacho going after low-hanging fruit right off the bat. Though he's more likely to do that as scum than town, he does it as town, too sometimes. But it's usually an invitation for a lurksack to step it up or die when he's town.

Thinking about it, and thinking about what my own approach as scum would be with this player list, it really jumped out. The Buzzword game had a strong effect on my game in both alignments. Although I already had figured out that it's critical as scum to develop an endgame scenario and strategy on day 1 - early day 1 if possible, I learned a ton about making it happen in that game. Which is ironic given that Nacho and Mastin weren't able to actually make it happen. The mafia qt from Buzzword is like a textbook on how to go about dividing town and targeting/developing a mislynch path.

[geists]

The question there then f16 is can you read ffery fast enough for this policy to work out?

My meta breaks down into three major bins. If I'm playing inside the right bins, I'm an easy read for meta-readers. If I'm having a "bad" towngame (for some values of "bad" anyway), then apparently it's a lot harder to discern whether I'm town or scum. Fortunately (I think) even when I'm playing badly as town, my body of work usually points to a town mindset.

[geists]

Also, given GOodmorning has done the square root of sod all why have a few got such a strong town read on her?

Is she known as town for being awkward, no use and then absent?

goodmorning is effectively v/la every weekend. She's also a difficult read for me in a lot of ways. I'm going to be ecstatic if I can learn from players who are better at reading her in this game.

mara, you and GiF didn't catch on to GM on day 1 of the narnia game. Neither did I, though we all three had suspicions, I think.

Do you feel like you can do better this game?

[geists]

There you go again. You said to me not do long ago how you aren't self aware...

I really can't get on board with you ffery, you are a walking contradiction.

That's me basically parroting something Cabd says about his difficulties in reading me.

Thing is, what I think of as my "bad" town games and what he thinks of as "bad" town games don't line up entirely well.

This is a reverse engineering project in progress, basically, and I pounce on every clue I get about what actually drives his reads of me when he's town.

[geists]

Whoo!!! Pieguy! <3

[geists]

it's like we had 24 pages of prologue.

hi.

[geists]

so real talk do i need to read the game or not

I would.

As game threads go it's not that dense info wise. Not a lot of walls.

I could post what I think are highlights, but they're probably biased because I tend to think what I'm involved in is the important stuff.

[geists]

And this is Nacho.

Hello Thor.

[geists]

Nacho, do you have strong reads yet? If so, who?

You have got to be kidding me.

[geists]

DOMO,

Welcome to my townbloc.

[geists]

DOMO,

Welcome to my townbloc.

can you elaborate plz

Shortly.

[geists]

DOMO,

Welcome to my townbloc.

can you elaborate plz

Shortly.

ffery towning me is both comforting and alarming.

You were the only damn town player in the Oz game. It was like a crash course in DOMO-reading.

[geists]

Tammy I don't want to make things worse for you.

If you feel like talking reads with me, let me know.

[geists]

Dat sounds likle a terrible game

It was hilarious. Everyone trying to look town for a week, failing miserably, then there was a sort of mini-night and one player was killed and flipped some crazy faction. Then day one started back up and everyone dropped the act. Except Domo. And me, kinda.

[geists]

Can u gimme towngame,?
Can u gimme scumgame?
Meta shmetas!

drunkgif?

[geists]

This is a prod dodge. On deck in about 24 hours.

Maraca - what happened to your townbloc from page five or whatever?

Nati - can you give me a brief summary of your role in geists please?

GiF - spotted this and I'm there:

I could yell and claw and capslock but I've seen so many kinds of that already to even react

It also amuses me greatly that Nero now has a 2013 join date.

Anyway I've gone to the trouble of preparing a reads list:

Scum: GOODMORNING

Can I answer this?

[geists]

Oh and hi!

[geists]

Nati's job is to encourage me to temper my snark by snarking first. I'll be keeping my diplomacy hat handy this game.

[geists]

idk I was townreading her but I'm starting to have reservations about her too

Tammy brings good points. also, I find it awkward she seemed really excited when I replaced in and she hasn't interacted with me at all since then. that plus Generic's point makes me think some of the stuff she's done so far is fake 0.0 I'm being a lazy fuck right now so I haven't really tried to do any formal sorting, but that's where I'm at

what do you think about Sakura so far?

I'm probably overloaded with games atm. Also, it's been a bad weekend and I'm feeling conflict-averse right now. When I saw you going at it with Sakura, I checked out of the thread for a while. Wasn't intentionally ignoring you, just avoiding heated stuff.

What do you want to talk about?

[geists]

@pieguyn

Nati thought that Tammy wasn't being as open as he would expect. I haven't played enough with her to have strong expectations, and prefer to just watch people who know her better sort her. I sometimes consider initiating some conflict if I can't get a read on Tammy otherwise, but generally not within the first day or 3 of Day 1. In last nights argument, Tammy posted something that I thought sounded genuine town, so have her in my townpile.

I never really had a townread of BRO in the touhou game. Was conflicted because Mac did townread him and was scumreading TNE instead. For me, there's a really big difference between his interactions in this game and that one and it starts quite early. Compare BRO's interactions with Cabd and me in this game and his interactions with us as Morph in that game.

I suck at reading goodmorning. I've played with scum-her twice, thought she was scummy and then backed away because I've been in on her mislynch. Oddly enough, I played a small offsite game with her a while back, but didn't know it was her. She went by another name. She was scum and I hammered her to win the game for town IIRC. Maybe I read her better if I don't know who she is.

I think MC Maraca is town. Could be fooling myself but I think I've had some breakthroughs in figuring out his town game.

Don't have an opinion on Sakura. I'll read your interactions wth her tomorrow sometime and see what I think.

[geists]

You were the only damn town player in the Oz game. It was like a crash course in DOMO-reading.

Unfortunately I misread your role as townish and you were scummish, although friendly to me. I think the only time I recall you being proper scum was in hydra with bulba, and it was him I was able to read. I might have problems with you when you're scum.

In an ordinary game I would have been horribly scummish in a burn it out root and branch way. In that game, I realized before the end of day 1 that for most players, their wincon would probably get easier if I recruited them. I felt bad for the players I was leaving to their own devices.

Then I found out that I could make the wincon of some players I didn't recruit easier, too, by recruiting their enemies.

I would never have expected that being cult leader would feel like such a townish role. And I doubt it will seem very townish if I ever draw it again. Oz was pretty unique.

This would have been a nightmarish player list to draw scum in. Worse than Xenoblade because everyone in this player list has seen my town game multiple times and several of them have seen my scum game as well. I'd still be off in a corner crying about it.

Anyway. Given our past games I expected you'd find me calling you town a bit troubling, but not fly-into-the-rafters alarming. Your reaction hit the right notes.

Cabd, your thoughts?

[geists]

I suck at reading goodmorning. I've played with scum-her twice, thought she was scummy and then backed away because I've been in on her mislynch.

Actually I misremembered here. The first game where I backed away from lynching her when she was scum, it was actually our second game. Our first, where I helped her get mislynched (though didn't actually vote - just dithered around with the actual scum (Mac!) at L-1 until someone else hammered her) went on much longer. The second game ended before the first one got through day 3 where she was lynched.

I can feel Mac and GiF smirking as they read this post.

[geists]

You just claimed scum when I asked you for your reasoning of why you jumped on my wagon and you were all like "what? who?"

vote:SSK

Oh, you did ask? Mostly gut. I was also, you know the third vote or L-8.
But I mean I went through a quick ISO glance as well to not find that much beneficial town content. You don't give substantial reasoning behind reads or votes. Your votes are too reactive.
If you see that as me claiming scum, cool stuff bro.

Someone who hydras with Nati should at least vaguely understand that it's the timing and tempo of events in the game that explain GiF's votes.

[geists]

Nati - can you give me a brief summary of your role in geists please?

Our roles are partly game-dependent, usually magnifying by the frame of day one. In this game, I'm taking on the sidebar position of dispensing advice and providing a filter for ffery's lens. Think Syryana's role in Rift, except I post and he's funnier than me.

I'm also kinda lost this game.

[geists]

KoreanBBQ wagon sucks guys.

reads'n'shit incoming sometime today.

[geists]

I'd give us about an 80% confidence level.

[geists]

That was Nati, this is ffery. I think the read will hold up based on what I've got so far. I will probably have a flash of paranoia here or there, but I seem to be better at both sides of the paranoia equation wrt Cabd lately.

[geists]

guys 37 pages already? really?

That's what I'm saying, man! These whipper-snappers just don't understand.

[geists]

I think there's been at most one post by Varsoon so far.

[geists]

How the fuck do we have over a hundred posts.

[geists]

Nacho are you happy with your vote on KoreanBBQ?

[geists]

How do you feel about SSK?

[geists]

We haven't had a chance to talk about the game since SSK started to worry me.

[geists]

We haven't had a chance to talk about the game since SSK started to worry me.

Now we have.

Nati's opinion is that SSK is going to be hard as fuck to read. My level of concern shoots up significantly as of now.

[geists]

I'm feeling pretty nervous, myself, for someone who's pretty happy with my townbloc so far.

I don't like the BBQ wagon. I don't like Nacho. We're 40 pages in and he doesn't know who he wants to push instead.

[geists]

You were the only damn town player in the Oz game. It was like a crash course in DOMO-reading.

I'm surprised you would feel confident enough in anything you learned about me from that game. I had no idea what was going on to begin with, so it's in no way relevant to my usualy town game. I dunno, it just feels like you're looking for reasons to town me.

I think in some ways the game was more revealing of motivations than most because of all the factions. It was really easy to tell the players who had to kill someone from the players who had no strong wincon-driven goal. The way you set about figuring the game out was kind of unique among the survivors, and you were the only survivor who seemed really comfortable with your wincon, if that makes sense.

Mostly, I don't want to spend the whole game being paranoid about you, so I'm choosing to start this game thinking you're harmless in the same way you were harmless in Oz, and I'll adjust if I see stuff I don't like. You've given me no reason to think otherwise so far. And this post of yours cements that. As town, you have no reason to trust me. No reason to buddy me.

[geists]

I'm feeling pretty nervous, myself, for someone who's pretty happy with my townbloc so far.

I don't like the BBQ wagon. I don't like Nacho. We're 40 pages in and he doesn't know who he wants to push instead.

Why do you have a townbloc?

Because it's how I approach the game. I townhunt and scumhunt simultaneously but town are a hell of a lot easier to find than scum in most games.

How do you feel about SSK?

He seems like a good choice for common ground. Does Nati have a read on him yet?

I don't like the vagueness of this post. It feels like they're just ready to sheep Nat. I know that Nat and I have played together a while, but form your own opinions and have your own ground.

We haven't had a chance to talk about the game since SSK started to worry me.

Ffery, what am I doing that is worrying you?

Pedit: Cephrir, stop.

You're really, really hard to read.

Going back to your first post, what was the basis for your reads?

[geists]

I'm feeling pretty nervous, myself, for someone who's pretty happy with my townbloc so far.

I don't like the BBQ wagon. I don't like Nacho. We're 40 pages in and he doesn't know who he wants to push instead.

Why do you have a townbloc?

Because it's how I approach the game. I townhunt and scumhunt simultaneously but town are a hell of a lot easier to find than scum in most games.

While it may be easier to townhunt, how do you not get in a cycle of confbias? Especially when someone reaches the point where they can be on your townbloc, then you're looking for why they can still be town and not why are they scum. It's less effective and more prone to bias.

If you put someone in your townbloc and never look back and don't reevaluate based on new data (their posts, votes, lynch cardflips and NK targets), then yeah you set yourself up for a ton of confirmation bias. Townbloc players by definition get a lot of scrutiny. The arguments and discussions that lead to consensus votes, and the efficacy of the successful bandwagons all tend to drag townbloc players into the light.

How do you feel about SSK?

He seems like a good choice for common ground. Does Nati have a read on him yet?

I don't like the vagueness of this post. It feels like they're just ready to sheep Nat. I know that Nat and I have played together a while, but form your own opinions and have your own ground.

We haven't had a chance to talk about the game since SSK started to worry me.

Ffery, what am I doing that is worrying you?

Pedit: Cephrir, stop.

You're really, really hard to read.

Going back to your first post, what was the basis for your reads?

I have been playing for years. I know my way around.

As for the basis of my reads, there were no particulars otherwise I would have mentioned them. Most of them were just my gut feelings. Take that as you will.

Then you shouldn't be surprised that by default your play draws attention.

[geists]

Hold me, Tammy, I'm scared

Haha.

ceph is town.

I think mafiassk is scum and if so then it will be interesting that ffery considers him so hard to read. His recent quoting of geists looks to me like scum who is feeling pressured, and is trying to "scumhunt"... odds are he'll try to bus someone imo.

I think we should lynch ssk and if he flips scum, any cop we might have would do well to have a look at geists.

vote mafiassk

When I make multiple mistakes about a player over a number of games, I consider them hard to read. I've gone after SSK in both the completed games we've played, and helped get him mislynched both times.

[geists]

Nat, what is your read on MafiaSSK? MafiaSSK, same question. From what I gathered, you two played a lot of games together.

Cephrir, in your 961, you say that I am "needling" Pieguyn over his read on GoodMorning which implies a negative tone based on your choice of word "needling." On the other hand, earlier in the post, you say you were glad that I objected to Pieguyn's read of GoodMorning. Why a negative tone towards something that you were glad happened?

In all the back-and-forth's I think Roflcopter is slipping through the gaps. I find him scummy. It boils down to the fact that Rofl is much more involved and passionate about the game as town than as scum. Information through lots of posts is good and pro-town. It is a natural scum-move to feign tiredness and groan at the massive amount of content that was generated. This especially holds true for players like Rofl who strongly prefer playing town to scum. There are a few others that are doing this but Rofl sticks out. I'll get back to this after reviewing Rofl's meta when I find a block of time.

VOTE: Roflcopter

Are you interested in a ffery answer to this question?

[geists]

f-16, tentative town eh. I'm learning how to reread SSK at the moment. I like that he hasn't taken a hard stance on me at least.

[geists]

f-16, tentative town eh. I'm learning how to reread SSK at the moment. I like that he hasn't taken a hard stance on me at least.

Above was nati's take.

We've been discussing SSK off and on for the last couple of hours. I also have him as tentative town. Stuff I like is that he's engaged all comers, and he's been putting at least some unsolicited non-reactive content in the thread since he became active. looking at his ISO it's more substantial than some recent games of both alignments for partway through day 1. The unapologetic reliance on gut for reads feels town, too.

[geists]

Varsoon have you done anything besides notice there are two wagons and assume one is on scum?

[geists]

"non-compliant"?

You come in uninformed, readsless and actually fos someone non-compliance?

Jesus Christ.

[geists]

This is not the bro talking.

[geists]

"suffocation".

No. I'm going to be afk for a bit and then I'm going to pick up where I left off before the server downtime wrt iso research and shit. expect some walls.

[geists]

ftr I don't like either of the primary wagons.

[geists]

Naked vote, most probably Nero, but i dont remember if GiF has done those before.

GiF does naked votes.

[geists]

@Sakura: did you ever explain why you thought geists felt off

I don't think so, but it's not something i can put into exact words, it's like a gut feeling i have...

idk if im just not reading correctly Nat/ffery (as in reading Nat as ffery or viceversa), but there are certain things that i'd expect Nat OR ffery to have done by now and i haven't seen any of that yet.

Another thing is their tone, it feels different from what i'm used to.

And that pretty much sums up my gut feeling, might be something else, but it's just giving me weird vibes.

My tone is fucked across the board this week. This is more or less why.

I'm getting over it.

[geists]

VOTE: Casso

This is where we want to be.

[geists]

My tone is fucked across the board this week. This is more or less why.

I'm getting over it.

And I've been really checked out in this game. It's moved at a really fast clip and 90% of the posts suck.

[geists]

I'd say Lovegood.

[geists]

Yeah.

[geists]

It's a slow burn.

[geists]

No, I wasn't, but I feel a similar subtlety.

[geists]

VOTE: Casso

This is where we want to be.

On a scale of buzzword to touhou, where are you sitting on this read?

I don't know. :/

I don't feel comfortable voting someone else carrying around this yucky feeling about Nacho.

Paranoia didn't inform either read. It may wind up making a y-axis.

[geists]

Thor's posts are where I checked out but eh. His head is easier to read if anything. :/

[geists]

I see. Is this read at all based around thor's posts?

For me, no. And I'm going to have to skim N's game now I didn't follow it when it was on.

[geists]

My tone is fucked across the board this week. This is more or less why.

I'm getting over it.

Is that the game you were talking about in NY 167?

Yep.

[geists]

Eh it's kinda hard to pinpoint specific posts, but at least now I know why their tone is different you see, in this game we had that just ended a townie fakeclaimed cop guilty on one of the scum and kept it up no matter what, then he said he was just a VT and ffery got mad because on another game a VT did the exact same thing on her but she was town, and that p.much lost them the game, so i'd expect her to still have feelings left over from that.

Actually the other player was a two-shot doc, which made the gambit even more risky. The game ended within about 48 hours of Day 4 starting last Friday, so at least I'm able to explain my terrible mood a lot sooner than I expected.:/

[geists]

Hey, Varsoon, when you slam with the best...you eat with the rest.

Or something like that, I dunno.

Fferyllt and you apparently have personality conflicts or some shit, so I'm supposed to be the filter. So, uh, anything you wanna talk about, Varsoon?

[geists]

What do you think of the deflation of the SSK wagon and the counterwagon that's surged on me?

I don't like the wagon on you. I didn't like the wagon on SSK either, really. I also think that pie might be scum maybe i dunno whatever. Haven't talk to ffery about it.

What do you think of BBQ/the BBQ wagon?

I don't think they're scum. They're really annoying and a major part of the reason I tuned out of this game, though. I think that wagon will end up having a lot of scum on it maybe though kinda

If you could kill any player right now, who would it be?

BBQ

Casso, King of Seals. In a heartbeat.

[geists]

Do you feel like there is scum in the overlap between people who abandoned the SSK wagon and then joined my wagon (this pool is Cephrir, DOMO, BBQ)?

Not reading the low-down at all, I'd say Cephrir probably. Ffery expressed some ill-feelings at him earlier on and that exchange he had a few pages back was pretty terrible in my eyes. ffery's really confident in DOMO-town(and I don't care), and we both like BBQ for town.

Also, wanna be town-buddies?

Sure, who's your favorite Joestar? Mine's Jolyne.

[geists]

Meh. I have him down as town tentatively.

[geists]

Where is this?

Most of it's piecemeal in my posts. I didn't do a comprehensive list and I don't really want to until there's more data from lurkers.

Also, I got distracted by badwagons, which actually firmed up some of my reads because the wagons look bad then the wagonees aren't striking me as scum.

[geists]

Why?

Ask again later.

Is something he does as town?

That thought process was clear enough to me.

[geists]

Why is Nacho/Thor scum?

I don't think we really have more than that both of us really, really don't like their posts...

[geists]

How so?

[geists]

So the best that both ffery and you can come up with is gut? Super weak, Nat.

Usually I'd pass the buck here and let ffery take lead, but both of us are having the same feeling with his posts, which is what brings us to this point.

[geists]

I will write another post with actual words arranged grammatically about why Nacho's bugging us tomorrow.

I will write another post with actual words arranged grammatically about why Nacho's bugging us tomorrow.

[geists]

quote weirdness. :/

[geists]

What made you put Brian in "Not so Town" instead of "In this game?"?

I have some of the same concerns about Desperado but his attitude about coasting doesn't feel scummy.

F16 also. Would have thought he'd push me a little more for being meh. But, finals week or some such. Also, he knew why I was meh.

[geists]

Move Ceph+Pie+Sakura down, SC, F-16 up and put rofl in meh and I think we're on the same wavelength.

[geists]

Because for him (skies), I feel activity levels ARE alignment indicative.

I wondered if you had an issue with some of Brian's content.

....I showed you mine, you.... you gotta.... show me yours! Fairs fair!

I'm impressed with how close yours is to what I'd put together right now.

I'd probably put some of the scum in null, because IMO the reasons for thinking scum atm are pretty thin.

[geists]

Because for him (skies), I feel activity levels ARE alignment indicative.

I think he's on unstated VLA site-wide right now, is the main problem with that.

[geists]

Yeah I'd totally sheep you and antagonize nacho if I drew scum in this player list.

[geists]

If townmorph rubs off on me, scumorph rubs off on you equally well.

Let Nati sooth your soul.

[geists]

Yes, and Cabd would never metaread tippy wrong on day one to mislynch him in a field full of great players, riiight tierce?

If townmorph rubs off on me, scumorph rubs off on you equally well.

I backslide. Demonstrably.

You're better as town than you apparently think.

[geists]

I really want to talk to GiF about now.

[geists]

Laptop died and I'm posting on a crappy netbook so this is not going to be as detailed as I'd otherwise make it.

At the time when Nati and I first started to feel suspicious of Nacho it was for a bunch of reasons, none of which was really a clincher but together make a constellation that we feel is trouble.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

We don't like how he seems to be currying favor with players rather than sorting them

We don't like the pitoli vote and especially don't like its timing. It came off like he was trying to deflect attention after we first went after him.

We don't like how he tried to push the non-aggression pact on us.

We don't like the whole tone of the exchange with Brian. The whole tone of that sounded off.

And we found Thor's posts pretty damn close to null content.

And finally, we don't like that when we asked him what he thought about SSK, he said that he was thinking about moving his vote there if Thor agrees. That was off for two reasons: the assumption that we were scumreading, not trying to sort SSK, and because he deferred the decision waiting for a catch up. That's not something he typically does as a hydra.

[geists]

Laptop died and I'm posting on a crappy netbook so this is not going to be as detailed as I'd otherwise make it.

At the time when Nati and I first started to feel suspicious of Nacho it was for a bunch of reasons, none of which was really a clincher but together make a constellation that we feel is trouble.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

We don't like how he seems to be currying favor with players rather than sorting them

We don't like the pitoli vote and especially don't like its timing. It came off like he was trying to deflect attention after we first went after him.

We don't like how he tried to push the non-aggression pact on us.

We don't like the whole tone of the exchange with Brian. The whole tone of that sounded off.

And we found Thor's posts pretty damn close to null content.

And finally, we don't like that when we asked him what he thought about SSK, he said that he was thinking about moving his vote there if Thor agrees. That was off for two reasons: the assumption that we were scumreading, not trying to sort SSK, and because he deferred the decision waiting for a catch up. That's not something he typically does as a hydra.

-I am picking up on less crumbs than I normally would because iPad. I also don't think that's a scumtell for me.

Maybe not, but it also meant you missed a ton of subtext around other players' reactions. That's a degree of not thinking like I'm thinking that scares me.

-I am currently considering going back to the Pitoli vote. The timing coincided more with my entrance in thread than your suspicion of me, though.

A pitoli vote makes more sense coming from you at this juncture.

-Why not? The only advantage it offers me as scum is the towncred. I offered it originally because I thought Cabd would appreciate the gesture, but he apparently didn't get it.

Why Cabd?

-don't understand where tone was off there.

Brian came into the game with a hard edge. That's unique in the games I've played with him. You interacted with him, but didn't seem curious about the hard edge in his posting.

-I thought Nati was scumreading SSK and I was pretty ready to move forward on that. I'm no better at sorting him than ffery is and so thought the method of approach to him this game was to leave him in Nati hands. You are correct that I usually don't wait to sync up as a hydra. Thor is not my usual hydra partner; my usual hydra partner is someone like you or GiF who can see why I'm thinking what I'm thinking and doesn't diverge on my most basic of reads. There are other hydrate where i take primary control and thus don't differ much from my usual play. Then there are hydrate like Majiffy where our approaches differ in a way where my play needs to change significantly. With him, I tend to exert my personality over his since my reads are superior to his, hence Vegito and ridiculous aggression. With Thor, the biggest thing I want this hydra to give me is a greater understanding of him and for him to understand these pieces of our meta a little more. I don't think playing in the usual way will help me with that, and am much more comfortable with waiting for him than I am not waiting for him.

Nati's not feeling all that confident about reading SSK correctly, but we were both thinking maybe town due to how he handled the pressure he was put under. We were looking for external impressions both to test our thoughts and to sort the thinkers.

I like open ended questions because the answers tell me more about the mindset and thought process of the answerer. It bothers me that you took an open ended query as a scumread, especially when I had been expressing discomfort about all the main wagons at that point.

[geists]

I know I'm town but I don't think I'm likelier to pick up on crumbs as town than I am as scum.

Sorry I missed it, it didn't come up in pedit.

I don't buy it. I'd be a lot more assertive if someone was claiming something I just did as town was a scum tell. I have been in this very game. Yeah you're scum.

I'm not as assertive as you and Tammy are about my towniness. I don't think that me not picking up on crumbs is a scumtell or a town tell or why ffery was thinking that it was. It could be one of those scumtells that I don't know about, so it's not the type of thing I can reject outright. I don't think it is, though.

Like I said above, missing the crumbs almost pales compared to missing the effect the crumbs had on other players.

I flew by one, got FoSed for it, went back, over-estimated what it was about, tested that, and eventually had a working hypothesis. That was one ripple of many.

You didn't react to any of that.

[geists]

-I am picking up on less crumbs than I normally would because iPad. I also don't think that's a scumtell for me.

How else am I to interpret this? I keep looking at it and I'm seeing the same thing over and over. From a town pov, you would KNOW it is not a scumtell for you. "Don't think" is not the kind of language I expect any townie to use in this context.

You scumslipped imo.

I'm interested in how ffery interprets it.

No, I totally get that statement and it's not scummy per se. I feel like there's an entire submerged iceberg's worth of behaviors in my scum game that I'm not aware of. I reverse engineer what my scum game looks like externally from foses, votes and the occasional (but too rare) discussions that actually talk about what pinged in enough detail for me to get past "but I do that all the time as town????"

[geists]

I know I'm town but I don't think I'm likelier to pick up on crumbs as town than I am as scum.

Sorry I missed it, it didn't come up in pedit.

I don't buy it. I'd be a lot more assertive if someone was claiming something I just did as town was a scum tell. I have been in this very game. Yeah you're scum.

I'm not as assertive as you and Tammy are about my towniness. I don't think that me not picking up on crumbs is a scumtell or a town tell or why ffery was thinking that it was. It could be one of those scumtells that I don't know about, so it's not the type of thing I can reject outright. I don't think it is, though.

Like I said above, missing the crumbs almost pales compared to missing the effect the crumbs had on other players.

I flew by one, got FoSed for it, went back, over-estimated what it was about, tested that, and eventually had a working hypothesis. That was one ripple of many.

You didn't react to any of that.

And this is scummy because:
______________________

because he's not reading the thread in the way I'm used to seeing him read games. His choice of what to quote stripe usually either makes a ton of sense to me or points up shit that I missed and then I wonder what the hell was wrong with me.

Prior to this exchange, the stuff he's commented on for the most part didn't fit either of those categories.

[geists]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

Town and wrong. Pushing me is one of the most reliable town tells ffery has, and this feels like a decent push.

Can you give examples where you were both town and ffery was wrong about you? I want to compare.

I'm not sure these examples exist. Ffery and I are hitting a bit of an uncharted territory in our relationship.

Dr Who game maybe. I didn't get a townread on you until I voted you and you reacted because you thought I was already townreading you.

Then equinox gave me squinty eyes for doing a 180 based on your reaction.

[geists]

-This is fair.
-Why didn't it make sense before?

Because it looked kinda deflecting.

-He usually has a better eye for things like that.

Apparently usually so do I but idgi.

-I can't say I can call it a "hard edge", but I felt something was off about him initially. I thought his later posts cleared up him not picking up on what I expected him to, so I began the process of backing off. What are you talking about?

He was in making-waves mode from practically his first post. I can kinda understand why he might open that way, but it's still notable. And then he did a really significant fade. The back off speed was part of what stood out about your interaction.

-Usually an open ended query to a strong scumread is the beginning of a major momentum shift, which would be caused by something like a smoking gun scumread on SSK from Nati. Why is misinterpreting your intentions a scumtell?

Taking such a stance in the midst of my already expressed suspicions looked like appeasement.

[geists]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

Town and wrong. Pushing me is one of the most reliable town tells ffery has, and this feels like a decent push.

Can you give examples where you were both town and ffery was wrong about you? I want to compare.

I'm not sure these examples exist. Ffery and I are hitting a bit of an uncharted territory in our relationship.

Okay. And what are those "waves crashing on the shore" that you picked up while missing the "ripples?" Which players were you referring to?

I need to check later, but I feel like this might be the second time that you've poked around something that shouldn't be poked too specifically.

[geists]

-I am picking up on less crumbs than I normally would because iPad. I also don't think that's a scumtell for me.

...an iPad makes you worse at reading?

dafuq?

I am not as careful as I would be on a bigger screen/when I would have more time to read and play mafia. iPad takes longer to post and thus I rush a little more when I play on it.

This I can relate to. This netbook screen isn't any larger than my tablet and the screen real estate is really impacting how I take in a thread.

[geists]

Nacho, what are your reads? What would you change in Cabd's reads list?

[geists]

There are a number of other aspects of my suspicions you could focus on and delve into all the detail you like.

[geists]

Unvote

I might do an actual reads list if the tiny keyboard doesn't completely piss me off.

[geists]

There are a number of other aspects of my suspicions you could focus on and delve into all the detail you like.

Okay then. Help me though whichever parts you feel comfortable with.

nested quote stripes. this should be fun.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

I'll let this slide.

We don't like how he seems to be currying favor with players rather than sorting them

Who has he tried to curry favor with and where?

His reaction to my question about SSK was one really strong example. The expansion of the non-aggression treaty was another. They both became sub-bullets of my list of concerns. The way he announced the BRO townread also felt that way to me. If you want more examples I'll have to go through his ISO.

We don't like the pitoli vote and especially don't like its timing. It came off like he was trying to deflect attention after we first went after him.

Why would Nacho as scum have reason to believe that this will take attention away from him as opposed to increase attention through people questioning him about the Pitoli vote?

Because pitoli was an easy target due to her level of involvement. It was a good choice if that was his intent.

We don't like how he tried to push the non-aggression pact on us.

He did the same to Buldermar in Hunterx so just the act of it is null. But I can agree that doing it after you suspected him doesn't feel right.

The expansion of scope was what bothered me.

We don't like the whole tone of the exchange with Brian. The whole tone of that sounded off.

Brian came into the game with a hard edge. That's unique in the games I've played with him. You interacted with him, but didn't seem curious about the hard edge in his posting.

I agree that it is unique based on my meta of Brian. He never entered a game that way so I can understand why Nacho not questioning him on it could be suspicious.

And we found Thor's posts pretty damn close to null content.

Agree about Thor.

And finally, we don't like that when we asked him what he thought about SSK, he said that he was thinking about moving his vote there if Thor agrees. That was off for two reasons: the assumption that we were scumreading, not trying to sort SSK, and because he deferred the decision waiting for a catch up. That's not something he typically does as a hydra.

This is good too.

Maybe not, but it also meant you missed a ton of subtext around other players' reactions. That's a degree of not thinking like I'm thinking that scares me.

I have no clue what this means.

It isn't something I want to discuss in more detail atm.

I flew by one, got FoSed for it, went back, over-estimated what it was about, tested that, and eventually had a working hypothesis. That was one ripple of many. You didn't react to any of that.

Without regards to a specific crumb, why would you expect Nacho to pick up crumbs as town as opposed to scum? I am assuming this is referring to breadcrumbs about roles unless you are using an entirely different definition of "crumbs." Whose FOS on you are referring to? Is your "working hypothesis" something you plan to reveal during the course of this game?

Because I think he's better at crumbs than I am. I learned to spot PR tells - attitudinal stuff - as I learned mafia. I've become more aware of crumbs because they're such a thing at MS, but often as not I spot PRs due to tells, and that's alignment neutral. What I do with that knowledge is alignment-revealing.

[geists]

I would like each player that reacted to my fakeclaim to claim if they were playing along, or if they thought I was actually claiming masons, though.

Played along a little, I guess. Mostly watched. Withheld judgment as to the veracity of the claim.

[geists]

I am poking around because your case and Nacho's responses are so vague it is taking me a while to understand it and verify its accuracy. I can see the motivation for making a case vague as you explained in your Power of Labels thread. I understand that part of it is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate what you are saying but you are doing it too well. Your current case crosses the boundary into being mostly incomprehensible to me. As you said in the same thread, letting someone get away with being so vague can be dangerous. I am trying to get as close as I can so I can reverse-engineer what you are talking about without actually asking you to reveal anything that you don't want to reveal. I am sorry for crossing the line accidentally, but I am putting in quite of bit of care to not do it.

What's your working hypothesis, then, regarding our alignments?

[geists]

I am poking around because your case and Nacho's responses are so vague it is taking me a while to understand it and verify its accuracy. I can see the motivation for making a case vague as you explained in your Power of Labels thread. I understand that part of it is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate what you are saying but you are doing it too well. Your current case crosses the boundary into being mostly incomprehensible to me. As you said in the same thread, letting someone get away with being so vague can be dangerous. I am trying to get as close as I can so I can reverse-engineer what you are talking about without actually asking you to reveal anything that you don't want to reveal. I am sorry for crossing the line accidentally, but I am putting in quite of bit of care to not do it.

What's your working hypothesis, then, regarding our alignments?

[geists]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

Town and wrong. Pushing me is one of the most reliable town tells ffery has, and this feels like a decent push.

There have been a number of games where I was town and didn't push you at all. I'm surprised you'd call this a reliable tell of any sort.

[geists]

I am poking around because your case and Nacho's responses are so vague it is taking me a while to understand it and verify its accuracy. I can see the motivation for making a case vague as you explained in your Power of Labels thread. I understand that part of it is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate what you are saying but you are doing it too well. Your current case crosses the boundary into being mostly incomprehensible to me. As you said in the same thread, letting someone get away with being so vague can be dangerous. I am trying to get as close as I can so I can reverse-engineer what you are talking about without actually asking you to reveal anything that you don't want to reveal. I am sorry for crossing the line accidentally, but I am putting in quite of bit of care to not do it.

What's your working hypothesis, then, regarding our alignments?

I had you as town for the initial push on Nacho. I started to have reservations as time went by and you didn't continue the push or attempt to persuade others to vote your way. I think considering the playerlist, you would definitely have the pull to make a lynch of your choice happen so the lack of it worried me but that could also be explained by Nacho not posting in the thread since then. Your subsequent case and push makes me pretty certain that you are town. I have enough doubt about King Casso that I am wondering whether I ended up making a deal with the devil. I think regardless of whether I am convinced by your case, I am leaning towards sheeping you just based on your reputation because I find it hard to believe that you would be wrong. Is that something that you find desirable? How certain are you?

So, you and Tammy town. Everybody else is in the "yet to be sorted" pile. Same reads as a while ago but I am far more certain in these reads right now.

You didn't comment on my unvote this time.

[geists]

I didn't. I didn't find it unusual for you to unvote on a suspect to give them more breathing room.

The last thing scum-Nacho needs is breathing room.

[geists]

Also, is it common for you to be 60 pages into a day 1 with only two townreads?

[geists]

Why the unvote then?

Because I was seeing all sorts of flashes of sincerity in his replies and have a strong sense that he was meeting me more than halfway in my sorting efforts. The sincerity could mostly be about stuff that isn't alignment indicative. But he recently beat me in a quick (almost chat-mafia speed) offsite vengeful game during one of MS' lengthy downtimes. Part of my misread was due to the components of his townread on me. I don't think he'd go there (or anywhere similar to there) again so soon as scum. But, he might.

I'm ambivalent.

[geists]

I can understand the desire to pressure me and garner alignment-based tells while I'm under pressure (what I assume the Desperado vote on me was for [if you somehow flip town, I'll be tying a noose for Desp next]).

However, legitimately thinking I'm scum and voting me due to that?

It's a waste of time and effort if you're town. If you're scum, it makes plenty'o'sense.

-V

What is this premise that town will recognize you as town?

[geists]

You people are killing me. Seriously. Years off my life.

It's going to make me so sad if it turns out you're scum this game.

[geists]

Also I think ffery is scum. She feels strongly that I town, yet is sitting back watching as I get railed? It feels like she might be happy to see me go. Watch her carefully.

You're not getting railed. You're getting Varsooned, but that's a far cry from getting railed. If anyone actually starts making noise like they're taking Varsoon seriously about you, I'll take note.

[geists]

Goddamnit.

I hate playing on a netbook.

Why the fuck are people listening to Varsoon here? Most of his argument is pure AtE.

[geists]

don't like any of the top three wagons.

roflcopter, pitoli and Brian are all three better votes than those three.

[geists]

Your silence on the matter so far has unnerved me.

I'm going to be slow and somewhat quiet until I get my laptop situation resolved. That will happen this weekend if I don't find something I want today. This pig slow netbook is a powerful incentive not to dawdle over it.

[geists]

Yeah not liking varsoon at all this morning.

p-edit: hai mara

p-pedit: ffery, when are you gonna actually do followup work on my reads list and where yours differs?

When making long and/or formatty posts doesn't piss me off.