Xenoblade Mafia (Game Over)

[Varsoon]

I'll claim town,
hey guys.

[Varsoon]

I'll claim town,
hey guys.

We're on a hair trigger right now and will lynch the fuck out of anyone who gives us a slight scum read.
Give us more.

Oh, I'm just town. I'm not gonna claim any more than that, because then I'm doing scum's work for them.

I'll claim town,
hey guys.

but are you?

thoughts on my miller claim?

Yeah, I am. It'll be evident eventually, I'm sure. Just wanted to let everyone know before they start cutting at my throat.
I think PRs generally shouldn't claim. I don't know what the miller/miller tracker does, so, please refresh me on that.
I'm not really convinced you're scum or town right now, Sven. Leaning more town than scum, but who knows?

I'll claim town,
hey guys.

If you pull a dozen half assed 'reaction tests' again

I will make sure you are today's lynch

I do not give a shit about meta

I am not kidding

Oh, that's what I did in a different game. Don't worry so much about that, Orcinus. I'll be playing pretty regular town today with a bit of sleuthing if I find time for it.

not liking how Varsoon swooned in too tell us he was town and then ran away.

VOTE: varsoon

I don't like that you'd put a vote on a guy based off of one little post.
Clearly, everyone who claims town is a liar and scum, amirite?


Anyway, not so sure about anyone's alignment. Sven, as usual, arouses my suspicion.

What's a miller-tracker?

We've got 20 people here. By Bionis, we'll have a damn hard time finding the scum.
I support flipping based on information.
So, currently, the best flips in my mind are ones of incredibly active players/claimed roles.

Not putting a vote anywhere since I don't feel strongly enough to do so.
Gonna comb the thread for some scumslips or something.


P-EDIT:
This game is moving a mile-a-minute, so it may be hard for me to keep up. I've got some afternoony plans, so I won't be here during that.

VOTE: TiphaineDeath

Gonna sheep AJ here. I find scum tends to say things like "No town would X" and base their votes on that.
I'm seeing Nacho's defense of him and I agree that it's somewhat genuine, but there could always be some bussing happening. /shrug.
I'd like to see what TD has to say.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, what did you think of Sven's claim?

Honestly, I'll probably ignore the PR claim altogether when considering whether or not Sven is scum.
To me, claiming a town PR is the same as someone just saying "Hey, I am town," if a bit more lame since it hinges on some sort of town sympathy for PRs or something.
Generally, revealing PRs to the scum isn't a cool idea.
I don't know what the miller-tracker does. Please tell me.

P-EDIT:

Thanks, Sven.


That's a pretty damn convenient role to have if you're scum, and a shite one if you're town.
Regardless, I'm not going to think of you as miller-tracker, but as Sven, the maybe-town-guy.

[Varsoon]

Hey, 2, let's leave other games out of this.

[Varsoon]

@Sven - Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If someone is just a regular cop, you'll ping as scum, making it a good role to lie about having if you're scum.

Regardless, I could care less about your role.
I'm much more interested in how you're playing.

@GIF: I know it's okay to link, I'm just saying that I don't like meta. How a player was/what their role was in another game shouldn't be a defense for them in this game.
Their play should be a defense for them in this game.

[Varsoon]

why cant i see who is viewing the thread anymore?

since when did that change?

this.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon is town too.

I'm

always

town. And never any cool roles, like Monado-wielder.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon is town too.

I'm

always

town. And never any cool roles, like Monado-wielder.

you can have mine. both of them

I bet your character is someone like Mumkhar or Dickson.

[Varsoon]

Sven, do you think there's scum pushing on your wagon?
If so, who?

[Varsoon]

As usual, it is hard for me to disagree with Nacho.


I'm a girl, too. Girl-power, I guess.

[Varsoon]

@Sven:
Ah, who do you think is town, so far?

@GIF:
I could see where he would understand miller-tracker as two roles.
253 is too compelling, though.

I really like Sven's claim more and more now. It feels like a litmus test for town/scum.

[Varsoon]

Anyway, I'm out for the day.

I'd like for town to shift focus from Sven and look at everyone else in this game. It's a big game, so keep your heads up and don't tunnel.
We've got time to evaluate a few people before day ends.

[Varsoon]

Peeking back in.

Sajin, that vote on me does nothing. Why didn't you ask some questions with it, for me?
Makes me sad, Sajin.
Makes me sad.


Anyway, more out-of-this-game nonsense aside,
I could see how people'd want to lynch Sven.
We've got time, though, so why rush anything?

[Varsoon]

In response to:

Spoiler:

@Sajin: pretty obvious what? Please enlighten me because I'm already at the stage where sven's rebuttal looks like he's trying to wiggle out of the situation.

I would forgive his newness to calling the two different aspects of his singular role as "roles" considering they are both standalone role names.

Varsoon is town too.

I'm

always

town. And never any cool roles, like Monado-wielder.

you can have mine. both of them

He even implied you would have to take one you probably would not like (miller) with the one you would like (tracker). I don't think it was a tell at all and is weak reasoning. Additionally it actually makes a lot of sense as it shows me his frustration at the heat a miller claim brings but also acknowledges it as a "cool role" at the same time. That post is one of the main reasons I suspect he is town.

Peeking back in.

Sajin, that vote on me does nothing. Why didn't you ask some questions with it, for me?
Makes me sad, Sajin.
Makes me sad.


Anyway, more out-of-this-game nonsense aside,
I could see how people'd want to lynch Sven.
We've got time, though, so why rush anything?

Ok, Why do you have so many useless fluff posts in thread? Why is your signal to noise ratio horrible? Is this style of posting the usual for you, in your opinion? Why are you sad?

nacho I am here I am all caught up!

okay buldey is making 2 look better for asking you the same question that I did about your read on cabd but I am still going to lay out some thoughts.

I didn't like the way she called sven "dummy". as far as I know that particular loving endearment has been reserved for me but it is more that it is weirdly placed; she only gets that way when as scum, she hasn't really even done it as a special lately probably cos I have gotten better about spotting her special game and will leave her alone. to me she is saying the right stuff and the timing is right but she still feels a bit off. there is a detachment from everything that I do not like. she said in poetic justice that her play on this site is different but the only game we have played together on here is the pj game. I can push her a bit to get a better read but I will be honest, I am tired I am in too many games right now and I was sick for the better part of yesterday. the homestuck game kept putting my heart out of rhythm like I really cannot stand our fights when they get that bad and I know it is unpleasant for her too. I think we are both sick of the dynamic that we have been stuck in for over 2 years. I really don't like how detached she is but buldey just tweaked my towndar a bit and if he continues to do so then I am going to stick with my read which was to townread her. if I get a scumread off of her I will let you know but it will be a buldey/majiffy shitshow that this site has never seen the likes of that is why I was honestly considering replacing out when I told you you are not going to like what I have to say. if you get a town read on buldey and I do too then I am going to just accept that feri's town game is indeed very different on here.

the exchanges between her and sven for a moment smelled like scum theatre and reminded me a bit of her and sparkle in the homestuck game. sven reminds me a bit of me and I am surprised feri never mentioned that. especially with the "wtf is this shit" comment lol. I think it is super risk <little reward for scum to claim miller on d1 cos if there is a vig with half a brain they will make it nowhere near to endgame. miller/tracker on the other hand is a brilliant scum gambit cos it leaves a kernel of possible usefulness that would at least get him to midgame I mean sajin is already like "hey let him live til d3!" and he has a good point, but leaving a scum tracker in the game is REALLY dangerous cos increases scum's potential to find specials. scum would have to be really confident that they could convince town that they were town for realz and would require a lot of skill. I don't know sven so I do not know if he has that skill level or confidence or not.

my earlier town read on sven came from that some of his reactions and thinking matched my own a bit. but the timing of his second claim of miller tracker and not just miller is atrocious I mean it was like someone went boo! and he is like MILLER TRACKER ACK ACK ACK! he did something else I did not like which was to undermine yours and orc's town read on feri, he sounded downright petulant. I see why you think he is scummy but I need to interact with him directly.

gif felt good, sajin too, I like where mac's head is at. staying with orc and you as town. varsoon looked good with the "he is claiming 2 roles is that a slip????"

that is all I got right now

orcinus, re svenskt I'm reminded of borkgame day 2 pretty forcefully. your thoughts?

- f

I've learned my lesson re Sven. But I see where you're coming from

Good morning

Quick skim. Don't like varsoon as usual. TD is shit. Cabd town read got questioned--ill see if I can get to it, phone posting cases doesn't work very well.

Glad to see more people posting. Hi mollie

VOTE: TD

Sheep

jeez peeps 15 pages already? And me sharing a computer this is gonna be interesting...

Yeah I am seeing differences in Sven from the game we played before and miller AND tracker??? that just seems odd combo together.....

So far 2 is looking like leaning town... give me more time and I will be able to solidify more on my read on them. Have played with fery and Bulder before

Played with Nacho loads and so far he feels pretty much his town meta.... Though he does have a tendency to replace into scum slots LOL... but yeah feels towny to me.

Orc hmm I would say leaning Town at this point. Seems like the Orc I know.

B and B I have played with both Mollie and Jiffy several times so will take a good look at their ISO. Should be able to nail a read on them fairly easily.

Not much yet I realize but yeah still V/LA here peeps NS and I are sharing a computer.

Oh news NS and I are now engaged ♥

Why are we still on the Miller/tracker thing and not lynching scum TD? I am very mildly put off that we have yet to focus the minute attention needed to lynch that motherfucker.

Let's face it, TD is scum. If you want Sven to be scum in your happy world, that's fine, too. But confirmed scum die first.

Now tell me who's scummy

Aj

Or Varsoon, the guy who sheeped him

@Sajin: You're probably scum, since you can't figure out anything from what I've posted so far and you're so quick to dismiss me as a useless fluffer of radio noise or whatever wiki-able word you're using this time. You've also been perched pretty conspicuously all game. Who remembers that Sajin is even in this game, off the top of their heads? Not I.
But, really, it makes me sad that you're so cruel, since I can only read you as a town jerk or scum trying to suffocate a weaker voice.

@Beauty&Beast: Think you're reading too much into things, also, I think it was GIF that you should attribute the "is that really a slip" to, rather than me. I could be wrong here, but, eh. Otherwise, I really like your performance in this game, so you're town in my books.

@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.
Also, why bring up something like "AJ or Varsoon, the guy who sheeped him", when in 367 you do the same thing with your vote?
I feel like you're scum-slipping, and you're trying too hard to play town-leader.

@Rach: Congrats on the engagement! I'm pretty much engaged to school now, myself. Could you give us some scum reads? I don't like how you're typically not very vocal/give very null/town reads. /shrug.

@AJ: oof, I can understand frustration over the focus on Sven's maybe-a-PR status, but this is just too savage. I usually read exasperation as town, but it's a bit bluffy here.



Anyway, my current scum-reads are Orc, TD, GIF, and Sajin.

GIF's not nearly as active as I'd expect, and the plays so far have been the usual buddying with me, but not nearly as much pro-town content as I tend to see there. It's a weaker scum-read to be honest, but I want to see more out of GIF so I can be more sure about the alignment here.

Orc's approach is a headache, as usual. Lots of posts make the thread really difficult to follow, which is disorienting for town, especially since other players feel compelled to respond all the time. It's just a means of letting scum lurk harder and active scum have a bigger voice. Sure, you could argue that a chatty scum is more liable to slip, but I'm not so convinced. After all, most scum play as town as they can, right? Regardless, Orc's voting patterns and inconsistencies really make me want to see Orc as a D1 lynch.

Anyways,
VOTE: Orcinus_theoriginal

You're too infallible and it doesn't sit right. Town should be more skeptical of you.
Also, Orc, lighten up. It doesn't suit you to be so rigid.
Here is funny picture, maybe it will make you laugh.



P-EDIT: Serious bro, chill the more out.
I dislike how you'd like to see more from those on Nacho's town list, but don't mention me.
It's a real heart-breaker.


Also, I'd really like people to use the names of the hydras, rather than their owners'. It makes it less confusing for guys like me.

[Varsoon]

For some reason I feel like I'm invisible every time I'm playing mafia. :T
What do?

Do something productive

Yelling works

Actually, this seems like a more town thing than not.
I mean, on GIF's end.
But here's an example of Orc being all townboss grrr
Orc you're not townboss
stop being so grrr
no one likes it

GIF, i'll let you be null for now.

[Varsoon]

You're so grr.
Stop being such a way.
Vote stays on you until you go to vocaroo and sing a long song about something.
Link it here and if it's good I'll vote for TD again.


Orc, on the real, the biggest posters are you, 2, and Nacho. Nacho is largely reactionary and I like his content.
You and 2, though, not so much.
You're the vote I'd rather put down,
so I did.


Townboss? ISO yourself and look at how you've been posting. You're so "I know this because I am bossu"


C'mon, Orc, you could be, I'unno. Wrong about something.

[Varsoon]

Guess I'll rev up the ISO and see what I mean.

[Varsoon]

11: RVS Vote
13: Why even say this? You're pressuring an RVS vote, I guess?
24: In response to what? You really seem to just be throwing a vote down to see what sticks, and this is the first of many. You bring up my sheeping as a cause to put votes on me, but this currently looks like a sheep of Nacho, if anything. You hop on the easiest wagon, which would be one on a D1 PR claim.
27 and post 29: You just seem lynch-hungry rather than actually trying to garner info. It's a lot of "What the Fucks" and "Don't Insult Us", rather than actual worth-a-shit town play.
30: Seems like you don't like absolutes. I'll point out every time you use an absolute from here on out, since you don't seem to think you're inconsistent.
37: "there is obviously a scum motivation behind a fakeclaim" -absolute. " I don't even know where to start in explaining how that doesn't work." -Absolute. It could work.
38: More of the same thing from 13. Now that you're out of RVS, it just seems like a thing you do. Of course, you can explain the wagons you don't clusterfuck over a cliff with "I supported wagons that weren't popular, see? I'm not scum!" Too easy of a break to give you.
57: Despite being so dead-set on Sven as scum, here you return to a player who hasn't even likely been online since your RVS push. It seems like a positioning tactic to come off as more consistent, but it's inconsistent with how you felt about Sven just minutes before.
58: Playing town.
68: Sets up lynches. If Sven is your scum-buddy, that is. If Sven flips town, then this just looks like town-positioning and even I've done this as scum.
81: "Name a Lurker", I really don't see any town motivation to amusing this sort of WIFOM coming from Cabd.
87: So, departing from the pressure that went nowhere and the Sven that you still think is scum, here's a GIF vote because he avoids hot-topics? What about the other half of the playerbase? Literally looks like a vote put on GIF for being active, hinging on levied offenses that are the very things that Orc is decrying in this post.
92: More absolutes, calls Cabd town and all that. Honestly, I've given up on stating every technically absolute thing you've said, but jeeze, man, c'mon.


Ug, I'm only halfway through this ISO on you and it's already a headache. Let's fast-forward:

108: Sonic vote again. Really wants this. Could literally be pressuring one of the fifty-two lurkers but keeps with sonic because town's consistent and Orc sure is town.
119: Throwing the vote around like it is RVS despite the game being 100 posts deep.
133: If the policy of Rach is a joke, it's one made in bad taste. Also, nice townlist. Should be a null-list.
141: Hey, nice to be in another game with you, I look forward to having fun and--oh, no, nevermind, you're a jerk. Refer to my recent posts on why this is a problem.
367: Talked about this already. The fact you keep an RVS-esque joke thrown down during 200 posts is really strange, given your voting methods so far and the fact you're so opposed to me/see me as scum.
436: Weak rationale on a weak vote on another new entry. Again, seem to be just tossing around a vote.
667: 200 posts later, a return to the TD wagon that didn't push itself enough, I guess. You never stay with any wagon, but seem to bounce to what makes sense at the time.
679: Am I supposed to read your votes as pressure? Why aren't you squeezing harder and on more questionable players? The most active players are Nacho, 2, and Sven, outside of you.

dntfkingcare
Sajin
TiphaineDeath
Andrius
Aj The Epic
Ghostlin
BROseidon 2
Metal Sonic
TMTOLBTWNTOF
fferyllt

These people all have less than 10 posts in a thread verging on 700 total.
Orc and pals, can you be less chatty?
Go talk to people in AIM or something.
It's literally noise -and- confusion, and it lets players like TD and AJ, who have been pressured fairly, just sit back and do nothing while others gab, waffle, and WIFOM the game into oblivion.


P-EDIT:
To your questions,

So, a relatively inexperienced player can't understand a typical scummy mentality? Cool. Let's talk in more absolutes, since you're so fond of them.
Or not.

I'd prefer to leave other games out of the discussion of this game because people should be judged solely on their performance in this game to find their alignment in -this- game.
You mentioned not liking meta-defenses earlier, I figure you'd actually understand where I'm coming from with this.

A player could play a literal thousand games of mafia and never be in one setup with a miller.
I'd like it if you'd stop trying to debunk my authority and voice solely because I am speaking with how I would see scum versus my limited knowledge of the hundreds of possible mafia roles.
It's a shitty approach, not only in-game, but also from the perspective of personal interaction, because you're not only attacking the validity of what I have to say here, but of my voice entirely.

It doesn't matter if something is or isn't intended as a reaction test if it gets reactions. Sven's claim pulled us out of a stagnant RVS and gave this game direction. Scum or not, Sven's PR claim helps town due to the posts surrounding it and the activity it has caused.

Oh, cool, nevermind what I have to say, it's an OMGUSBUSRUSIDGAF. I'm glad you can continue to write me off with game terminology. "I don't have to listen to you, noob." That's a damn good place to be. Also, every person who ever voted someone in response never did so for pro-town reasons, it's always OMGUS, am I right?

What I'm saying, although less eloquently there than here, is that you're commanding too much authority with your posts, when you're not spending time distancing yourself from any of that with "They were sheeps" and just one-line reactions that make this thread as long and hectic of a read as it currently is.

If you are town, I'd like to see you play it more authentically, rather then looking a whole lot like a scummy player covering his tracks and generating a lot of noise over nothing.

[Varsoon]

Ultimately, your play-style has been loud, but without substance. Your defenses seem more like backpedaling rather than standing your ground. The average user has posts about 10~20 times in this forum and you've made over 100 posts, and to what end?
You also support a really suffocating, elitist playstyle towards me, at the very least. I'd like to have a fun game with everyone in this thread, regardless of alignment, and it's pretty damn unfair how you've been towards me.
So, yeah, I hold a vote on you for personal reasons coupled with logical ones.
You're scum, through-and-through.

[Varsoon]

I don't think I'm seeing Varsoon town atm. He seemed to have legit reasoning for voting TD, yet chalked it down to sheeping AJ. Just felt to me like he was shifting the blame.

However I'm also seeing a case for TD scum too so that's kinda fucking with my head a bit.

The "Sheeping AJ" was a flag for people to latch onto.
Any perceptive player would see that my reasons for voting for TD were solid enough of a basis for me to make that vote regardless of other votes on the player. The "I am Sheeping AJ" bit was an afterthought, as it's an accusation that less perceptive/scummy players would make of my vote.
However, TD hasn't posted much since then, and I'm uncomfortable with the wagon now. TD's still on my scum-list, don't worry about that. The guy has done nothing to keep me from seeing him as scum, I'd just rather pursue a wagon that'll produce something.

[Varsoon]

Shit I didn't even see page 28

It's k, this game is moving at a mile a minute.
I don't know if my case against Orc should exonerate me or put me in your town bracket.
This is just how I feel about Orc's play so far.
I urge that you also consider Orc may be scum.
How do you feel about him so far?

[Varsoon]

Keeping my vote where it is.


Also,
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller

Wiki says that a Miller claim D1 is an approach, which makes me think it's a common enough thing.


Copied the post list, sorry about having feryllt in there.
Although, you should be aware of my own position regarding Hydras--I don't know who make them up.


WIFOM: Any reasoning can be argued as 'fake' reasoning for scum to push a town wagon. You can paint things whatever way you want to, but at the end of the day, I feel that the reasons I had for voting TD were sound, as town.

There's a difference between confidence and what's going on in your posts.

"Anyone decently experienced in mafia knows what a miller is"
I don't. Well, didn't.
Also, what was that thing you said about absolutes?

Holding to the same reasons I had in 684.
I'll put my vote elsewhere when I feel stronger about another one of my scum-suspects.
I'm interested to see how you play from here until the end of D1.


P-EDIT:

Orc's gonna Orc, I suppose.

@Sven: I agree. You think Ghostlin's a good candidate?

@Mac: Previous scum games for me? Only in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=27133 and http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=28111. So far, I've just tried to play really hard town as scum, whereas, with town, I've been trying different approaches on this site. Orc's not that happy with one of my approaches, because it scares him. Also, because he pressured the -same- wagon on me before and he's thinking maybe this time it's gonna flip him a -different- result. Regardless, I would care less about how anyone, especially me, has played before this game. What's important is what I've done in this game alone. That'll let you know what my true alignment is, even before the flip.

@Orc: Hehehe, because if I said I was trying to get a reaction back then, it wouldn't really be a genuine test, would it? There's times when this is obvious, and others when it is bullshit. Me, making a good case for my TD vote and then adding that I'm sheeping AJ? No one should even question that.
Honestly, if everything that you post isn't an attempt to get other players to respond in some way, then you're playing the game in a way that isn't very constructive. Don't get all upset just because you've bought tickets to the ruse cruise.

P-P-Edit:
Orc, you're delightful, but that's the weakest attack you could have made on me. "It doesn't make any logical sense and he flipped town D2 in the other game!! Lynch him!"
Garsh, you know how to flatter a boy.

[Varsoon]

i think the fact that varsoon goes up against you speaks in his favor.

My case is crap, don't worry about it.
I just wanna see what Orc has to say.

Guess Orc's town, given the responses. I don't wanna let up that easily, though, you know?

[Varsoon]

varsoon, ghostlin is a good candidate for what? lynch? I am voting him so that should answer your question

edit, wtf varsoon

I'm a madman.


Honestly, I've got to make plays so that my wildcard reads can be put in scum or town buckets.


I think that ghost could be a good vote. Do you think our vote pressure would drive ghost to respond in interesting ways?
VOTE: Ghostlin

[Varsoon]

Orc, you're delightful, but that's the weakest attack you could have made on me. "It doesn't make any logical sense and he flipped town D2 in the other game!! Lynch him!"
Garsh, you know how to flatter a boy.

this is not what I said?

Oh, so it's okay for you to misrep people but when they do it to you, it's not so fun?

You get all red and stingy when people poke you, you know that?

[Varsoon]

Seriously, though. Orc, stop posting a thousand times.
You can walk away from the phone/computer and do other things for awhile. Not every response needs to be responded to.
Calm your titties.

[Varsoon]

varsoon, ghostlin is a good candidate for what? lynch? I am voting him so that should answer your question

edit, wtf varsoon

I'm a madman.


Honestly, I've got to make plays so that my wildcard reads can be put in scum or town buckets.


I think that ghost could be a good vote. Do you think our vote pressure would drive ghost to respond in interesting ways?
VOTE: Ghostlin

"do i think our vote pressure would drive ghost to respond in interesting ways?"

you sound like a robot and you sound very fake.

STATEMENT: BEEP BOOP ROBOTS ARE YOUR FRIENDS.

[Varsoon]

Seriously, though. Orc, stop posting a thousand times.
You can walk away from the phone/computer and do other things for awhile. Not every response needs to be responded to.
Calm your titties.

nah I'm in class

we can talk

aren't you happy about that?

Nah, I already got what I want from you.
I'm a fickle lover.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, there's some hypocritical moments in this game.
/shrug.
I entered the thread and claimed town.
I'm town.

[Varsoon]

...this thread exploded.
I'll catchup manana, focusing on another game before sleep tonight.

Questions for You, Andrius:
Do you think TD is scum? Why or why not?
Who are your top three town reads? Why?
Do you think the artificial length of this game is a legitimate threat to town, and, if so, do you think it is a construction on scum's behalf?

[Varsoon]

@Orc: Yeah, and you'd think I'd be more careful, if I was scum. Figure it out.


@BRO: And a good scum player would deliberately play against/manipulate and be aware of his own meta. Meta allows weak players to stay weak, and strong players to manipulate them. It's not a very good approach. There's nothing I can do to stop you from using meta evidence in a case for or against me. I, however, won't rely on it as the foundation for any of my cases.

P-Edit:

Orc can't get me off his mind.

[Varsoon]

@Orc: Yeah, and you'd think I'd be more careful, if I was scum. Figure it out.

There's town WIFOM and scum WIFOM

This is not town WIFOM

There's town and there's scum.
I'm town.

[Varsoon]

Woot, now for more generalities:

Still like Sven/Nacho/Orc for town. Also liking Andy and B&B a lot. Liking, but less so, Rach and Freezer.

Really not liking Varsoon, especially after the last few pages and with the "we shouldn't use meta" thing. That combined with the WIFOM at the start, makes me really want to know why the people who townread him did so, and what they think of him now?

Also not a fan of TD for reasons that have been stated already, but also kind of iffy on AJ for tunneling TD so hard. Both are scummy, but they probs aren't scum together. AJ, do you have thoughts about the rest of what has been going on?

Think that 2 is likely scum. Nacho is reading super townie and I trust his read on ffery, especially when my gut is giving me the same thing after reading the whole thing. Ffery cracked pretty fucking hard.

Also not a fan of what TMT and dntfuckingcare have done. They have multiple posts with very little to no content. Everyone else is 50 shades of null.

Oh, yeah, VOTE: TD. Think this is the best wagon to jump on right now.

Pedit: Orc, that comment about meta was directed at Varsoon. Formatting ambiguity on my part, oh well. It's 5am and this has taken me three hours. Oh, and there is your opinion on Mollie vs ffery. Yeah, ffery is probs scum. Will parse specifics if I need to post-sleep.

I'm with you on most of this.
Honestly, I should have probably stuck to the TD wagon and shut my face, although that's too safe a move for my town-play.
VOTE: TD
It's the wagon with some kinetic force. Besides, a good flip is a good flip is a good flip. Plenty of players have weighed in on it and I think there's scum between TD and AJ as you do.

I'm convinced of Nacho/Orc/Sven/Andy as town. Less so of GIF and B&B.

The people who are townreading me hard right now (namely, GIF and Nacho) have been in games with me before, and understand what my town game is like. They've probably lurked my other games, but I don't wanna flatter myself too much.

Oh, and for the Orcinus In All Of Us:
Sheeping BROseidon here.

[Varsoon]

BRO can also be town.

Don't like the vote on TD over Varsoon though. Varsoon vote would be more constructive if you have equal levels of scumreads on them. But bad town=/=scum


Varsoon literally not one of your posts have ever pinged town to me this game. If you're town you really need to work on it.

I'm glad that I'm bad town.
Makes me feel real warm inside.
Cool, I'm also glad that I don't ping town on your broken, archaic radar of towniness.
If you're trying to read people accurately, you really need to work on it.

[Varsoon]

Sorry, Sven. Your wagons tend to have an unbearable amount of friction and irrelevancy. If Ghostlin was here, I'd keep my vote there and make a case or something. Ghostlin, however, is not here.

[Varsoon]

I'm convinced of Nacho/Orc/Sven/Andy as town. Less so of

GIF

and B&B.

Anyway, my current scum-reads are Orc, TD,

GIF

, and Sajin.

GIF's not nearly as active as I'd expect, and the plays so far have been the usual buddying with me, but not nearly as much pro-town content as I tend to see there.

It's a weaker scum-read to be honest, but I want to see more out of GIF so I can be more sure about the alignment here

.

Okay, I'm done babysitting the thread for now but Varsoon is seriously scum I swear it.

It's almost as if you're some kind of genius who's capable of making bad reads while simultaneously ignoring the text of things. Here, I did some bolding and italics so you'd be able to focus your eyes on words better.

[Varsoon]

Sorry, Sven. Your wagons tend to have an unbearable amount of

friction and irrelevancy

. If Ghostlin was here, I'd keep my vote there and make a case or something. Ghostlin, however, is not here.

So you voted for TD... who is also not here?

The more active of the two, who has yet to adequately answer for previous votes on him.
Furthermore, pay attention to the bolded more than the idea of a player being currently present.
TD will log in.
TD will see votes on his face.
TD will respond.

[Varsoon]

Sorry, Sven. Your wagons tend to have an unbearable amount of friction and irrelevancy. If Ghostlin was here, I'd keep my vote there and make a case or something. Ghostlin, however, is not here.

also what the fuck does relevancy have to do with a wagon.

How many other players have weighed in on Ghostlin?
It's an irrelevant wagon.
How many other players have said something about Sven?
It's a relevant wagon.

One flip will tell us more about the rest of the players than the other.

Hope this makes sense. Sometimes I'm far too in my head.

[Varsoon]

@BRO: Not yet. I really haven't interacted with Varsoon yet and he won't be back for around 7 hours.

the way GIF knows me, it's terrifying.

Varsoon makes eggo look like the inferior waffle brand.
TD did shit posts then an ATE when arriving, and ATE = leans scum to me.

I try.


I quoted some other posts but they got lost, so, eh.

I feel like the BRO vote on me instead of TD is kinda weak, but it is what it is.
TD responded like I expected a town TD to. I might step back from this, but TD's less interesting than I thought.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: 2
I don't like how 2's been recently.

Also, I could care less for Orc's "Rally 'round the family" approach of just saying "Everyone vote my scumspec".
Mac's mac, so I'll always be skeptical of 'm.
I really don't like AJ's recent plays.

GIF's flip on his townread of me is neat.
Seems like Nacho is ready to flip how he feels, depending on things.

Oh, I wanted to tell BRO that I mention they had town reads on me because of the meta. I'm not using it to defend my alignment, they are.

Anyway. I'm here, so if GIF wants to chat, feel free to ask me things.


2, what's your town motivation in this game?
Who do you think is scum? Why?
Can you point me to posts where you've done good scumhunting, in this thread?

[Varsoon]

Oh, you don't have to be GiF to ask me questions, other people, feel free to step up and confirm me as something.

[Varsoon]

r u gonna be around after 3 hrs? We'll start talking then.

I should be, yeah.

Classic backing down in response to reverse pressure, lynch this scum please.

Oho? I suppose if I said that your reply was in-line with what I thought scum TD would say, it'd be classic scum OMGUS, right?

Don't like how you're painting my posts as scum, but it's fine. You're letting yourself lean for me. Keep making posts of this quality, so I can get a more absolute read. :3

[Varsoon]

r u gonna be around after 3 hrs? We'll start talking then.

I should be, yeah.

Classic backing down in response to reverse pressure, lynch this scum please.

Oho? I suppose if I said that your reply was in-line with what I thought scum TD would say, it'd be classic scum OMGUS, right?

Don't like how you're painting my posts as scum, but it's fine. You're letting yourself lean for me. Keep making posts of this quality, so I can get a more absolute read. :3

[Varsoon]

Alas, the fated double-post, saying what I said twice.


Also, every time I come in this thread, everyone shuts up. I guess if I stay here, it'll keep Orc from gabbing off.

[Varsoon]

I mean, you know how it is. Remember that newbie game we played together when I went completely off on you? The kind of reads I like to have are the ones I can happily bring to the grave with me.

Fair enough, to this and your previous post.
GIF's been pretty good at reading me.
And duping me, too. D:

Nacho, who do you have as town and scum, so far?

[Varsoon]

I will not lurk X_X.

No actually varsoon if you had continued to push me after that post of mine I would have felt much less certain of my read on you.

See when I specifically tell you doing something would be omgus, i.e something generally considered anti town and bad, if you are willing to do it anyway that probably means your read is real and you honestly believe me to be scum. When I confront you with that obvious setback and you drop it, it feels like either your read was weak in the first place or your read was fake. I'm going for option two here.

I'm glad there's not the third option where I put a vote on you to see what you'd say about it, then felt what you had to say about it was pretty genuinely town.


@Nacho: I agree with you on AJ and 2, but why is TMTOLBTWNTOF scum?

[Varsoon]

B-sides, there's other wagons I'm more interested in, TD.

[Varsoon]

@2: Thanks for the list. Could you articulate why you think these more active players are town and these less active ones are scum?

@TD: Why the ghostlin vote?

[Varsoon]

His catchup posts feel like they are all made of sheeping other people already stated opinions. Don't like it.

Do you think it's worth sheeping other people if they have a good case on someone or should your own vote always be founded on your own logic, rather than resting on that of others'?

Regardless, I agree, Ghostlin is a weak slot right now. I'm just twiddling my thumbs and waiting for more posts out of 'm.

[Varsoon]

Ghostlin, it's interesting that you include me in your scum-list based off of things 500 posts ago, rather than what is currently happening.
Regardless, I find it doubly neat that you're supporting the TD wagon and my own.
Put a vote somewhere.
You should probably articulate -why-.
Also, could you explain why you're supporting some of the easiest wagons at this point? Seems like you're scum trying to push them through, rather than town that's actually convinced of scum being there.

Tl;dr- I'm not convinced. Slam a vote and make an argument.

[Varsoon]

In regard to my 252, Sven said he looks for town first, then scum, ergo, my 261.


Elaboration on 261: I explained this elsewhere in the thread, but I'll be more thorough here. Orc's aware of this, but I actually find it pretty interesting to, as town, do something scummy to deliberately start game discussion. Regardless, Sven's claim got a lot of people to respond in a lot of ways. I feel like town would be more likely to handle things thoughtfully whereas scum would push for an early wagon there. I did something similar in my very first game and even referred to it as a litmus test. Regardless, the myriad of responses allows players to better judge everyone in the game, and even if the claim itself isn't very pro-town, the resulting replies and discussion generated can work to town's benefit.

P-EDIT: Good deflect and misrep, Ghostlin, but we all forgot your mac vote 300~ posts ago.
Also, I'm not talking about Sven, I'm talking about me and TD. The day isn't halfway done. These are early wagons that have been around for a couple hundred posts now.


VOTE: Ghostlin

2's responses strike me as pretty town, or thorough scum. Either way, much more interested in the Ghostlin wagon now.
@Mac: He's not really doing a good job of looking at everyone, just his scumspecs.

[Varsoon]

I'll stay here, since my presence shuts orc up.

[Varsoon]

@V: ok.
What did you learn from that "litmus test?"

Various approaches and mentalities of the players in the game.
Although, what I did hinged more on a noob-tell than a scum-tell, so it's a little different than Sven's PR claim.
Regardless, I like breaking out of RVS asap.
That's why I was skeptical of the players who thought entering another 'rvs' was a good idea.


Anyway, Ghostlin and Sajin for scum.

VOTE: Ghostlin

Pretty sure there's something worth flipping between the two.

[Varsoon]

The insistence on my wagon and misrep/lack of perception is what bugs me the most.
That, and, y'know, the rest of how they've played this game so far.

Still think there's scum in the active 4, but that's a case for another day.

[Varsoon]

TMT I'm coming for you after I'm done with Varsoon.

GIF, since we're both in-thread right now, what else you wanna know?
I'll try to answer as truthfully as possible.

[Varsoon]

Should be apparent.

[Varsoon]

Cool, put them in bold with my name next to them so I'll see them next time.

Or just ask them again right here/direct me to the post.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon: cool. Tell us what you learned about those "mentalities."

P-Edit: DON'T DISTURB DAMMIT

Which players were more likely to support my ideas/buddy/sheep, which ones had more game-knowledge, and which would lurk more in the face of larger discussion. For the most part, it gave me pretty-spot on ideas of how the players in that game went about the game, and so on. Sadly, it also made me distrustful of Fuzzy, which led to town defeat in the long run. The main problem with that game was that scum replaced in, so, while I knew some people's approaches, I couldn't really pin the replacing-scum as easily.

[Varsoon]

Sajin's town.

Varsoon, 675 seems like you want to buddy Orc and then you vote him. Then you accuse him of trying to be 'town leader' in 676.

Explain to me the following:
675: Why would you take two diametrically opposed stances in the same post? What did it gain you, and what would the town motivation be in wanting Orc to post less? (Considering the more he posts, the easier he is to read?)

676: What would the advantage of taking a proactive role of Town Leader be scum motivated? (Keeping in mind most people scum styles aren't proactive, they're reactive?)

Gonna assume that Ghost means these questions.

Let me figure out that Orc was town. Orc's town.

Scum could earn town-cred. Players don't question the extremely active/inactive nearly as much as they should.

[Varsoon]

In case I wasn't clear enough, I'm asking player-wise.
You know. Like "who did what so he's suspicious." Kind of stuff.

Man, now I have to dredge up the game itself.

In posts 38 and 44 of this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4755377
I propose a posting quota despite knowing it's not that great of an idea. I mainly propose it to figure out the approach other players in our game would take and to get us out of RVS, one way or another.
Yoshi sheeps into it, which let me know pretty early on that Yoshi's quick to sheep, but generally wanted to do 'pro-town' things.
ANG sheeps it, and buddies me pretty hard, so I'm pretty skeptical of him. Same went for yoshi, for calling me conf-town so soon. Turned out ANG's slot was scum.
NS stands against it, but is pretty pro-town in doing so, explains why policy isn't exactly a good thing for town.
Nabber disagrees with a quota but agrees with posting a lot, putting him in a safe position for his scum slot. His response didn't give me a scum-tell, though.
Kur0 was dubious, but didn't turn anything around on me, essentially confirmed him as town in the long run due to his responses there and later.
Fuzzy eventually comes in and uses the quota deal to levy a case against me, which I found pretty scummy at the time, but later read as being extremely distrustful of 'confirmed townies', which should have given me a town read overall. #noobmistakes
Other players were largely absent (like Nacho), so I didn't get much out of them.

[Varsoon]

@B&B: Was trying to pin 2, and I still really haven't. 2's a hard read for me.

[Varsoon]

@GIF: D'oh.
Learned to be skeptical of Nacho,
That I couldn't put Orc in the town pile quite yet,
Orc's quick to abandon wagons and make noise
TD's picking up on the same skepticism of Nacho and is pretty town-motivated, actually (I wanted to press this for awhile, TD's town in my books for now)
2 is pretty aloof.
Cabd's a pro-town sheep.
GIF's playing a sparse, yet careful game.
BRO is skeptical town.
Mac's iffy, but seems town-motivated and careful.
Andrius is pro-town town, and generally thoughtful.
AJ and Sajin, I'm not so sure about. I need to investigate these slots more. Seem like concerned town, but in a way that makes me feel scum may be there.


Anyways, that's a quick read-down of what I can recall from top of my head.

[Varsoon]

Out of my previous out of Ghostlin and Sajin, I'm much more confident that Ghostlin is the scum between the two.

Vote: Ghostlin

Just gonna keep my vote here.
I think that the case raised against me reeks of scum trying to bury town.
ISO work is also really throwing people up for lynch candidates.
Just feels scummy all-around.

[Varsoon]

how did your Sajin read turn from "for scum" to "not so sure about?"

These are reads based off of the reactions to Sven's PR claim.


Sajin's later posts put him in somewhat scummier territory, and so my highest scum-suspects are between him and Ghostlin. I'm much more confident about the Ghost lynch, mind you, and the flip'll let me figure a good deal more about Sajin, who is a weaker read atm.

[Varsoon]

I will unleash high hell

To get this fucker varsoon lynched

Just look how inconsistent all his reads are

And oh my fucking lord this ghostlin push

Just

Nfkeood

GUYS

I'mma go play some Anarchy Reigns, you unleash high hells and so on.
Or, you know, we could actually lynch some scum.


Orc, were you aware that people sometimes think new thoughts, or that, after re-evaluating things, they feel differently about things?

You're not being very postmodern, Orc.

Keep making noise and rallying town versus town.
I'll hunt scum.

[Varsoon]

GIF, before I disappear for a bit, anything else you'd like to ask that I could answer quickly?

[Varsoon]

K.
@V: what exactly of orc's "bossy play" irked you?

Stuff like the post above and when he makes posts like "Hey, guy who just entered thread, vote X with me."
Seemed like really confident scum playing town.

[Varsoon]

@Mac, See my 1052. I realized here that he meant what I got out of seeing Sven's claim as a litmus test.

[Varsoon]

@Ghostlin: Doesn't exonerate you, though.

[Varsoon]

K.
@V: what exactly of orc's "bossy play" irked you?

Stuff like the post above and when he makes posts like "Hey, guy who just entered thread, vote X with me."
Seemed like really confident scum playing town.

this is orc as a player in general.

p-edit yeah I got that.

I'm aware, was in another game with him and he was just as frustrating. I don't like basing my town-tells and scum-tells off of meta-experience, so I pushed Orc's buttons and he's pretty town for me in this game.

@GIF: I'm unsure if town would do that. S'why I had to mess with Orc in the ways I did. Like I said, he's confirmed himself to me as town by now.

[Varsoon]

K.
@V: what exactly of orc's "bossy play" irked you?

Stuff like the post above and when he makes posts like "Hey, guy who just entered thread, vote X with me."
Seemed like really confident scum playing town.

this is orc as a player in general.

p-edit yeah I got that.

I'm aware, was in another game with him and he was just as frustrating.

I don't like basing my town-tells and scum-tells off of meta-experience, so I pushed Orc's buttons and he's pretty town for me in this game

.

@GIF: I'm unsure if town would do that. S'why I had to mess with Orc in the ways I did. Like I said, he's confirmed himself to me as town by now.

If you were aware of this being orc's play why did it strike you as confident scum rather than just orc?

I tend to judge players on a game-by-game basis. See the bolded.

@V: how exactly I ended in your weak scumread and null to very next post?

That's the difference between where you are now and where you were in reaction to Sven's claim.
I like the work you're doing here, but it's hard to figure out if you've fooled me into thinking you're amazing town or if you're actually just a really town player. Regardless, you've been doing a lot of pro-town work, so I see you as more town than not.

Oh, guys, I just discovered a gambit that'll let us figure out any player's alignment, but it'll only work once.

[Varsoon]

@GIF: D'oh.
Learned to be skeptical of Nacho,
That I couldn't put Orc in the town pile quite yet,
Orc's quick to abandon wagons and make noise
TD's picking up on the same skepticism of Nacho and is pretty town-motivated, actually (I wanted to press this for awhile, TD's town in my books for now)
2 is pretty aloof.
Cabd's a pro-town sheep.
GIF's playing a sparse, yet careful game.
BRO is skeptical town.
Mac's iffy, but seems town-motivated and careful.
Andrius is pro-town town, and generally thoughtful.

AJ and Sajin, I'm not so sure about

. I need to investigate these slots more. Seem like concerned town, but in a way that makes me feel scum may be there.


Anyways, that's a quick read-down of what I can recall from top of my head.

how are you getting "concerned town" from aj's posts? I get the opposite

I would say that about sajin but most definitely not aj

and what skepticism of nacho? nacho is town

Before even more people misread this, these are reads based off of people's immediate reactions to Sven's claim.

I'm always skeptical of Nacho, but I do have him as town, too.

[Varsoon]

@V: in your post 678, you mentioned you not liking orc's and 2's post as much.
Why didn't you like their posts?

Lots of highly reactionary posting, didn't seem to be doing that much town work nearly as much as it was just general chatting.
Lots of space filled but not much action happening, if that makes sense.

[Varsoon]

Anyways, I'm out for now. I'll be back in a few hours, maybe.

[Varsoon]

Seriously though, consider that Ghostlin lynch.
Also, I guess I'll keep my gambit a secret until you guys wanna enact it?

[Varsoon]

How can we know whether we want to enact it if it's a secret?!

I'll reveal the details when you guys want to.
But I'm almost positive that I've found a way to discover any single player's alignment, but it'll likely only work once.
Of course, the player that we target has to actually go along with it, and if they refuse, I guess we can agree that they are scum.

varsoon please do not self hammer in this game if you are town & reach L-1. Thank you.

Don't worry, I only self-hammer in games where I can't stand more than half of the players/actions happening.
This game, however, is pretty neat.
Orc annoyed me for a bit, but now I've got him pegged, so it's k.


I like Andrius' re-entry. It's a breath of fresh air as far as reading goes, and gives pretty good insight to where Andrius is in the whole scheme of things. Town, that is.

Can we agree on a major scum-suspect for D1? We've got about 12 more days left, but I'd really like to come to a common consensus on who is on the most scum-lists.

[Varsoon]

@BRO: I mean that you're skeptical of other players. That's a good thing to be, for town, in my books.

Varsoon, are you trolling or have you seriously discovered something that is a for sure alignment maker?

I seriously doubt you've somehow found something every other player ever has missed, but hey, i've been wrong before.

Too bad we can't use it on you, that would help me a lot.

Not trolling.
It would work on me, but you guys would have to do all the work.
We could do it to Sven, but, again, I'm not going to break this out unless everyone agrees it is a good use and to give it a shot/the person we are investigating is active at the time. It requires at least four players to work effectively, one of which needs to be the person you're investigating.

Welcome back Varsoon.

What made your read on orc suddenly change in #714?

Orc's responses, his exasperation, especially in that the more I post inane, illogical things, the more he flips out over it. He felt really genuinely upset with my plays, and he was consistent in the manner that he got upset.

[Varsoon]

The other good thing about my Gambit is that scum can't manipulate/fake it. It's pretty much 90% guaranteed to work, and I've thought it through at a lot of angles. The only way it wouldn't work is if Bork is running a bastard game or if the person being investigated refuses to communicate.

[Varsoon]

Orc, I complained earlier about not having a cool role.
Dayvig would be the coolest role.
No, my gambit can be performed by any four players in this game.

[Varsoon]

Although... having a dayvig to confirm it would be hella gold.

[Varsoon]

@GIF: Who's that directed at?

[Varsoon]

I don't think you understand

You /die/ now, scum

Oooh, you're claiming dayvig and killing me?
That's pretty much the most garbage play you can make right now, especially if you're -actually- dayvig.

[Varsoon]

@V: you.
P-edit is to orc.

Nuts, gimme a sec to type it out, then.

[Varsoon]

Orc's scurred of my gambit, I guess.


ORC - Town. Confirmed it when I interacted with him.
Nacho - Town.
Sven - Town.
Ghostlin - Scum.
Mac - Town.
GIF - Town.
Sajin - Null-lean-scum.
2 - Null-lean-scum.
BRO - Null-lean-town.
Cabd - Null-lean-scum.
TD - Null.
AJ - Null-lean-scum.
B&B - Null-lean-scum.
Metal Sonic - Town.
Andrius - Town.
TMT - Null
DntFkngCare - Town.
Jon - Null
Rach - Null-lean-town.

[Varsoon]

If Bork gave Orc the Dayvig role, he has truly doomed us all.

[Varsoon]

It's confirmed right when Bork gets in here and says I got dayvig'd, right?

[Varsoon]

I could explain my reads, but it'd take time and wouldn't make much of a difference. I've got those reads based on interactions with other players and by seeing how they've interacted. Some of it is how I feel, where some of it is me second-guessing myself and making someone null rather than town or scum.

[Varsoon]

@Metal: Do you have any reason for your anything? You've posted 0 in the way of thoughts so far.

AJ, why are you so sure that it's fake? I think it's likely fake, but you are especially sure.

I have no clue why anyone would fake-claim Dayvig and bold in a dayvig action.
Unless it's a joke.

Either way, outing his own PR like that so early and using it to kill someone who's been confirmed town since post 1 is just lazy and not very town.
I think Orc's smarter than that, but I also know that he doesn't like the kind of play I do, with tests and so on.
So it's probably not a test,
he's likely just dayvig.
And he just shot town.
Town who has a gambit for confirming a role.
*slowclap*

[Varsoon]

I was referring to Orc, 2, and Nacho. Probably had a brainfart or typo'd in a 3.
Regardless, those are the three most active players, with Sven, GIF, me, and B&B being the next wave of activity.

[Varsoon]

Well if varsoon is dying, my work has no fruit.

He's not but he needs to shut up

Unless he wants to humor me with his gambit so I can laugh at his idiocy

VOTE: Aj

Oh, so you're just making more noise, even doing the things you say you'd lynch me for?

Cool and a half.

Anyway, we'll talk about my gambit when you guys actually want to use it.

[Varsoon]

BRO, I mean both of those things, but mostly post-count.

@B&B: The lurkiest of scumteams.

@Orc: You keep trying to devalue my voice. You literally have no clue what my gambit could be, but you're already decrying it.
I'll never stop posting.
If you don't like it, replace out.

[Varsoon]

You're a sweetheart.

No one should be new at anything, ever. Otherwise, Orc will treat them like idiots and won't shut up about it for eons to come.

[Varsoon]

Well I mean maybe use them when you get less new

But for now

No more

Please

Nope.
Now what if I told you I lied about having a gambit and it was all a reaction test to further see what you'd do, Orc?




















Okay, I'm not that cruel.

[Varsoon]

B&B: Partner implies only 2 scum. Likely more than 2 in this game.
Anyway, I'm against lynching Rach or Metal Sonic based on their post count alone.

[Varsoon]

How about contents?

That works.
I'd like more out of both players, definitely.

[Varsoon]

You guys figure out if AJ is scum, I have to go swimming.
As of now, I'm not entirely convinced.

[Varsoon]

Reverend's replacing in makes me a lot less certain of the slot than before.
It feels like he didn't know to claim miller until he saw Sven's post, and when he posted, he only claimed miller rather than the later-revealed Miller-tracker.
From the look of his posts, he was posting as he was catching up, so this idea makes the most sense.
Another thing that looks off to me is how he declared Metal Sonic as scum and I was pretty convinced, but then I realized his case was really sparse and could be argued against half the players here, including me.
Also-also, I know he might still be catching up, but to put a vote/case against a player during catching is strange, given they could have posted more since then. If Reverend had completely caught up with the game before making his metal sonic vote, I figure he would have said -something- about me, but my name isn't dropped in a single one of his posts so far.

With the flow of the game, as it is, I'm putting Ghost back at null and shifting 2 to scum. Ghost's response on how he thought about me and TMT (I assume?) is pretty telling of a town alignment, given the thought-process and articulation involved. I feel like if he was scum, he wouldn't be so hesitant on his case against me. However, he explains fully why he saw my slot as scum, and why he's considering it more town now.

2, however, I'm just not happy with.

Vote: 2

P-Edit: I'm glad to see Nacho doing work like this, you're damn good.
Also, the way GiF knows me... asking where I am as I type my catch-up post. D:

[Varsoon]

At this point, I'd be happy with a 2 lynch or a Reverend lynch.

[Varsoon]

Ok, Ima spell this out nice an clear in small simple words so maybe people other than nacho will pay attention. I want you to tell me in what reasonable universe a thoughtful isolation read takes less than a minute. Even go read my iso from that point back, for content not just skimming, and see how long it takes you.

This is a bonified bloody scumslip and I don't get how you people aren't seeing it.

You can't all be scum, and I'm reasonably sure you aren't all stupid either, so somebody tell me why I'm wrong.

Makes sense, but I wouldn't build a case on that alone.

[Varsoon]

SANDWICHES

CONFIRMED FOR BEST MOD

[Varsoon]

Nacho and Rach, how do you feel about Reverend--particularly, the case I raise against him?

[Varsoon]

You wouldn't build a case on someone subtly lying to stick a vote on what looks like a viable wagon?

What would you like, an engraved confession from him? A cop result perhaps?

I wouldn't have my case exist and lean solely on the fact that he said he ISO'd you and there's a 1-minute timestamp there.
Yeah, Metal Sonic's cases are weak, and his plays are generally not very convincing, but I don't think he's a good D1 flip. Maybe during D2.

[Varsoon]

@2, I've had you has a scum-lean for most the game so far.
*crosses arms*

Why vote AJ, Nacho?

[Varsoon]

@2, I've had you has a scum-lean for most the game so far.
*crosses arms*

Why vote AJ, Nacho?

Okay. Where do you mention any reason for this scum-lean?

- b

Eh, Iso me.
If there's not any good reason in there, then, gut, I guess.

Regardless, I'd like to see your flip.

[Varsoon]

1. ² (buldermar + fferyllt)
2. Aj The Epic
7. dntfkingcare
10. jon_h61
19. TMTOLBTWNTOF

this is the list I want purged before anything else

I can agree with this list.
How do you feel about Metal Sonic? He seems to be on a lot of people's scum-lists.


Also,
@Cadb: I've still got that gambit up my sleeve, and it'll still work. In fact, it'll probably work best on D1, but could work pretty well any day.

[Varsoon]

We could use my gambit when/if 2 hits L-1, if only to confirm things.
I'd also like to see it actually work, given that it'd drive Orc up a wall if it did.

[Varsoon]

I get the impression with all these "Lynch this order" lists of UN and his fucking with the town in Posh mafia. Let's not worry about that shit, you get one flip at a time and you move on. Telegraphing every person that you want dead is only going to cause the scum to kill everyone else, but congratulations on accomplishing that. The way you're negotiating lists to lynch feels very scummy. Why worry? Push a reasonable case, get the flip, move on. Nacho, I know for a fact you're smarter than this, but then you go around pretending that this isn't going to affect a scum night kill. What the hell, nacho? I expect town play from you, not that. If I didn't know Braveheart was scum, I'd be voting you for encouraging and not stopping that bullshit.

I have no clue who Braveheart is.


Also, why you gotta make me more suspicious of Nacho?
Unfair, AJ. Unfair.

[Varsoon]

this game was FAAAAAR too tense for a moment there
it just got a lot lighter

AJ's assault on townking Nacho seems like scum trying to shoot at town's head more than anything else.

Still, makes me feel all kinds of concerned, WIFOM'ing internally.

[Varsoon]

(am I in your flowchart yet?)

awww gif
i'm gonna give my meta tell on varsoon out to you

I'd like to know this, too.


D:

Why so many players play like I don't exist in this game, I have no clue.


P-Edit:
At least Orc knows I exist. Yataa~

Orc, you ever think, maybe, things are possible that you couldn't fathom?

[Varsoon]

Orcinus


Your posts are delicious

[Varsoon]

I've presented a few questions as of late as well as some valid reads, and it's all been pretty ignored.

Your censorship shant work on me, B&B

[Varsoon]

Do you know why your game posts are being ignored

You could think about that

Ouch, Orc.
Right in the heart.

[Varsoon]

I loled.

varsoon you have us as scum after having us as town when we are so obviously not scum. tbh honest I think you are kind of crazy but mebbe in a good way dunno yet

nacho I

try

I might be crazy.
You're hard to read, but that might be the hydra aspect of it.
/shrug.
You can be town for now.

[Varsoon]

pork rinds

http://youtu.be/L1BDM1oBRJ8 ?

[Varsoon]

I have no clue who Braveheart is.


Also, why you gotta make me more suspicious of Nacho?
Unfair, AJ. Unfair.

TMT=Braveheart. The quote his name represents is from William Wallace.

This is just my suspicion of a Posh mafia syndrome, not me attempting to 'assassinate townking'. That's garbage. But, you still don't line people up to have scum knock down everyone else.

And where the hell did Andrius come into that? I've mentioned Andrius as town, and there's no reason to believe otherwise. Your reads are not an end all, and even as scum, my partners would have to handle themselves. I have enough shit to worry about that I wouldn't be worrying about my 'partners'.

Wait, wait, wait, I just thought about your whole argument and it doesn't sit right with me.

You're saying that he's made a list of scum-suspects and so scum'll NK everyone not on the list, right?
So, is that a subtle way of showing you see Nacho as town?
Because I'm not seeing scum motivation for a Scum-Nacho to make a list if his plan was to NK everyone not on the list.

[Varsoon]

You're saying that he's made a list of scum-suspects and so scum'll NK everyone not on the list, right?

No, he's making a list of lynches, which methodical lynches can cause death of town and townies.

As for Braveheart known reference, someone mentioned it earlier in the thread. TMTOLBTNTOF is his name, for "They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom", a William Wallace quote.

Yeah, but it's not like town's going to mindlessly lynch down the list, especially when it starts flipping town.

yep thats what the letters mean he told me in the onsite chat one day. Cause I asked him about it... It is amaxing what happens when you ask questions...

Speaking of which:

I have some questions for ya all

I do have work to do plus NS and I are getting ready for company. I get to meet his son this weekend. So I was not able to continue earlier Mac BTW why so hot on me? There are 20 players in this game who else are you looking at? Do you have town reads as well as me for scum? Tunneling tends to make you miss the bigger picture... ...

Var I am not ignoring you, but so far I have not really seen any glaring tells either way from you so you still are prob leaning town. One of these days I will get a chance to play with you when you are scumz...

Ghost do you have anything else besides the whole calling me stupid and trolling? Cause yeah not impressed with that, though overall you seem towny I still need to really look over your ISO more Unlike the TD dude you actually have posted a fair bit.

TD dude umm anything else besides no one can read that fast? Cause that is not that much of a case, especially with as few posts as you have. I know that Nacho has you as town but I have you as kinda meh atm...

DFK??? ummm still waiting for more from you? I do understand the pace of the game is really fast and furious, lots of hyper poster, but umm we definitely need MORE from you.

MS is definitely a bit of pot meet kettle cause his ISO is also very short whilst he complains to Nacho for putting TD on the town list but not him ummm ... You definitely need to post more, and I will say that at least TD has posted some content... you can go in the leaning scumz pile...

more later cause this already must be a wall

Is Jon even in this game? Has anyone metastalked him to see if he is just not posting much? Cause this is not typical of his play from when I have played with him before... He was much more active. The whole shit I forgot about this game is understandable, but since then?

I guess Rach is town?

[Varsoon]

I can see it now. Hopeful replaces in on D1,
Realizes he has to read a short novel,
Replaces out
The cycle never ends.

[Varsoon]

@Rev: We could always use my gambit to confirm your alignment/role.

You're saying that he's made a list of scum-suspects and so scum'll NK everyone not on the list, right?

No, he's making a list of lynches, which methodical lynches can cause death of town and townies.

As for Braveheart known reference, someone mentioned it earlier in the thread. TMTOLBTNTOF is his name, for "They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom", a William Wallace quote.

Yeah, but it's not like town's going to mindlessly lynch down the list, especially

when it starts flipping town

.

so at what point on that list will we start lynching town cos it kind of sounds like you know that someone on that list is town

Ah, you're reading that a bit wrong. The second part of the sentence should be a dependent clause relying on the first half.

So,
Town won't mindlessly lynch down a list.
Town especially won't mindlessly lynch down a list if people on that list flip town.


Does it make more sense now?
Also, I can be sure that one out of those five people isn't scum, so long as our game follows typical ratios and has only 4 scum in it. Although, there's no way for me to know how many scum are in this setup.

[Varsoon]

@Rev: We could always use my gambit to confirm your alignment/role.

What gambit? I'm sorry I haven't read the thread yet, I've just been ISO'ing those with small ISOs.

Can't reveal the details prematurely, but we'll need at least you, me, and two or three other people to make it work.
Orc doesn't think it'll work, but I've got some faith in it.

[Varsoon]

I'm not sure I trust you tbh. I'd be worried about these other two or three people.

Once I explain it, it'll make a lot more sense.

The other people need to be around to confirm things, and to allow me to use it.
Like I said earlier in the thread, it'll likely only work once.

[Varsoon]

I'm going to go cut grass, but if any other players want to entertain my gambit/actually use it on Reverend, please let me know.

[Varsoon]

Orc would probably only do it to prove I'm wrong, or something like that.

Regardless, it won't really out the other players. They are just there to make sure that I'm not full of shit and that you're not lying.

[Varsoon]

Honestly, Reverend, the way it'd work is that you'd be the first party, I'd be the second, and a third party would be a sort of jury. Once both of us do what we have to do (which I won't reveal until you decide you're up for it), it's up to the jury to confirm things. The jury is, essentially, anyone else who is in this game. Ideally, at least two other people will look over our interactions and be able to confirm your alignment, etc.

So, essentially, both me and you could do everything we need to do, then we'd have to wait for other players to come in and confirm whether or not your actions are genuine.

[Varsoon]

I'm going to go cut grass, but if any other players want to entertain my gambit/actually use it on Reverend, please let me know.

Can we do it on AJ or 2 instead? I'd really like to confirm the alignments of those slots.

It'd work for any player, so long as they are willing to go along with it. If they refuse, there's really nothing I can do.

[Varsoon]

That's because I haven't explained everything yet.

[Varsoon]

I see it as town Sven expressing frustration over the pace of the game, hoping town wins, and calling attention to how his post'll likely be wifom'd.

[Varsoon]

Alright, I'm back. Should I try this on 2 or on TheReverend?

[Varsoon]

me me me me, quick before TD walls me

Alright, the first step, then.

This'll be easier with you than most other players, actually.


I want a full claim from you, including the flavor paragraph and character that you are.
This shouldn't be hard, since you already claimed and all that.

[Varsoon]

Please include your win-con and abilities listed, too.

[Varsoon]

I recommend paraphrasing the shit out of that stuff because mod kill. Also, suggest you guys check with bork before proceeding.

- f

Doesn't work if he paraphrases.
It -should- be rules legal, given that he's not taking a screen-cap, etc.
Because there's nothing that lets us know if he's 100% quoting the PM, right?


P-Edit:

Ah well.
My idea was to counterclaim with my PM, minus role, and then third parties could confirm that the rhetoric fits, etc.
/shrug
It -would- work if it was rules legal, but I guess not.

[Varsoon]

Makes me think--in a Lylo situation, all players could quote their role PMs directly, and the one guy who isn't modkilled is the scum, because he would have to lie or be modkilled. Then again, I guess if everyone is modkilled, there's no one to lynch the remaining scum.

[Varsoon]

My role is already out there, and my wincon is posted in #2, so there's nothing to gain from what I can post. I had already typed a post out with this info and a question for mod, but he's answered already.

The idea is that you wouldn't be able to lie about your flavor, etc, since it seems like Bork wrote it.
That said, with me posting my flavor,
and each player having their own role pm,
Other players would be able to confirm that what you put down was rhetorically similar/sound.
Does that makes sense?

Doesn't matter now, since it's not allowed.


Regardless, I'll say Rev is town.

AJ and 2 are scum candidates for me.

[Varsoon]

Alright, whatever. I'll maybe take your anti-town comments on board if you flip town. Maybe. I still think you're scum, I find it strange that you're not applying any pressure on me. I'd expect townies to be extremely wary of me, because of my tracker modifier. Mollie is on the ball when she worries about a scum tracker. Like I said earlier, town thought process. Scum know I'm miller. Townies do not know. You don't seem to be interacting with me in a way that makes me believe you don't know what my role is. Therefore, I think you're scum. So my vote stays.

You inherited my read on svenskt, which went to pretty strong town when he replaced out. Prior to that I was willing to wait a day and see how my read shaped up. Our vote is on someone we agree looks scummy.

- f

Wait, wait, wait.
How does scum know he's miller?
Because, as far as I know, scum would only know who other scum is.
I guess he means that scum can infer that he's miller because they know he's town and he claimed miller?
Still, blah, I had a townread on sven and I'm way less sure about Rev.

[Varsoon]

Does that makes sense?

Sort of. What doesn't make sense is that you actually thought posting my flavour paragraph in its entirity would be ok. I've already posted my role, that's as close to the line as I feel we're allowed. I'm happy to quote my wincon too, since it's the same as vanilla wincon in sample role pm in #2. But obviously that doesn't help determine my alignment. You've got my role flavour, you can decide for yourself if I'm scum who found a good flavour for sven's bullshit claim, or if mod had flavoured fakeclaims for scum, or if I am truthful.

pedit... how do scum know I'm miller? I dunno, because they know I'm now scum, and they would naturally question why a cop, for example, would fakeclaim miller when it runs the risk of a PL on d1.

Eh, yeah, but we can drop speculation on that end since it's not allowed.


As far as the miller business, I could care less about your PR. To me, you're either town or scum, and your play will paint that.

[Varsoon]

@Andrius: Rach's always really distant from the game and doesn't ever really post a whole lot. It's hard to read her, imo.

[Varsoon]

Makes me think--in a Lylo situation, all players could quote their role PMs directly, and the one guy who isn't modkilled is the scum, because he would have to lie or be modkilled. Then again, I guess if everyone is modkilled, there's no one to lynch the remaining scum.

WHAT THE FUCK. WHY WOULD YOUR BRAIN EVEN GO HERE??

I am some sort of evil genius, or absolute retard, according to 2.


Anyway, let's lynch 2.
VOTE: 2

2, you're scum, right?

[Varsoon]

wrong.

- f

So, then, who is scum?

[Varsoon]

i would love if we could have a read-meshing session soon, actually. i liked your meta dive on AJ so I'm gonna listen to you and troll buldermar. it'll be useless wheel-spinning if you're scum, but it'll actually help me out by leaps and bounds. don't shut down on me because i think you're scum since this is actually the towniest game i've ever played in my life so you know I have good intentions.

I'd like that, too.
With everyone.

It's interesting that both sides of 2 didn't say anything when I asked who they thought was scum.
They didn't mind quoting other posts of mine, though.


Anyway, Nacho, when you say reply to that quote in 1905 (I think this is the right number), what part of it do you mean? Pretty sure I already addressed it, but could be wrong.

[Varsoon]

wrong.

- f

So, then, who is scum?

Here.

It's better to say it again.
Please don't say you are lazy,

Spoiler:

datte honto ha crazy

[Varsoon]

tripping.
This is why hydra slips are bad.

[Varsoon]

Third paragraph of 1785 is a scum claim.

He's making himself sound unthreatnening, pandering to town interest, after forgetting that his counterpart claimed tracker/miller he is now making sure that all take notice. There is just so much subtle deflection in this post it does the opposite for me.

The paragraphs above are saying wifom is ok and not a big deal while at the same time inspiring a whole load of it is also bad. These kind of tactics are the same i often use as scum to great effect, thus I can spot them.

"happy to try" "Prove my alignment" "curious" these words are still in the, "look at me I am a happy team playing townie" vein of speech. While maintaining the stance that he's not angry at anyone who thinks he is scum.

1793 is more of the same.

"Simply hoping you'd save me the bother"
"form my own read"

Every word out of this mans mouth is trying so damned hard to be town he cannot possibly be.

I am completely certain that MS is scum, however given that no on else is I'll lift my vote on him to vote reverend, I maintain that anytime anyone wants to vote ms I'll be right there with them.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: reverend

You tryin'a fool me, TD?
'cus this is what I believe. D:

[Varsoon]

Good work, Nacho. I agree on most of your points about AJ, although I'm a bit hesitant. Seems like he doesn't play the same way he did in a lot of other games, but I've seen weaker plays/players than him (in this game, that is). I guess I can't really be sold on it until the flip.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon is there anything you're not hesitant about? Talk to me about your reads while I'm working on this.

varsoon where the hell did you go?

Gotta be sure of things.

I got dragged away yesterday and had to do a lot of yardwork and visiting with relatives.
Today'll be busy in the afternoon, I imagine.


Scum reads?
2, AJ, TD, B&B, dfc, Keyblade, and TmT.

[Varsoon]

I'm reading varsoon's ISO and I'd like to rephrase that last comment...

varsoon is scum and it's obvious as shit.

Spoiler:

I'll claim town,
hey guys.

Why townclaim first post?

Oh, I'm just town. I'm not gonna claim any more than that, because then I'm doing scum's work for them.

Weird thing to say.

I'm not really convinced you're scum or town right now, Sven. Leaning more town than scum, but who knows?

Fence sitting on miller issue.

Don't worry so much about that, Orcinus. I'll be playing pretty regular town today with a bit of sleuthing if I find time for it.

More pointless town talk. This is still only his 2nd post, how many times has he said "town"?

Not putting a vote anywhere since I don't feel strongly enough to do so.

Still 2nd post.

VOTE: TiphaineDeath

Yeah still 2nd post.

Regardless, I'm not going to think of you as miller-tracker, but as Sven, the maybe-town-guy.

Not 2nd post any more! Still fence sitting on miller.

I'm always town. And never any cool roles, like Monado-wielder.

He really wants to emphasise his alignment, doesn't he?

I'm a girl, too. Girl-power, I guess.

Girl claim? Your profile says male! Obviously I'm not suggesting this is a scumtell, but it confuses me all the same.

@Sajin: You're probably scum, since you can't figure out anything from what I've posted so far and you're so quick to dismiss me as a useless fluffer of radio noise or whatever wiki-able word you're using this time. You've also been perched pretty conspicuously all game. Who remembers that Sajin is even in this game, off the top of their heads? Not I.
But, really, it makes me sad that you're so cruel, since I can only read you as a town jerk or scum trying to suffocate a weaker voice.

Scum claim harder please.

@Beauty&Beast: Think you're reading too much into things, also, I think it was GIF that you should attribute the "is that really a slip" to, rather than me. I could be wrong here, but, eh. Otherwise, I really like your performance in this game, so you're town in my books.

HARDER I SAY.

@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.

Ooh that's good, that's real good.

Anyways,
VOTE: Orcinus_theoriginal

You're too infallible and it doesn't sit right. Town should be more skeptical of you.

Oh man that's the one, perfecto.

I can't be bothered to keep walling. Everything I read from varsoon gives me weird vibes. This is scum.

@Cadb: Of course, if I claim not being a girl, I'll not be a girl, but my role PM said I'm a girl so I'm a girl. Also, with the vote on AJ, It feels like you're bandwaggoning.

@Rev, Give me a second, I'll refute all your points. I care, and I have you as town, but you're making me really doubt that, and, as town, that's probably not something you wanna do--make town think you're scum, that is.

[Varsoon]

Shit, did not realize that by quick-quoting, it puts it in even quick-replies. Well. Sigh.
Lemme get to this.

[Varsoon]

Spoiler:

I'll claim town,
hey guys.

Why townclaim first post?

It's my new meta. I'm claiming in all my first posts, or, at least, trying to. It's helpful, because it lets town know I'm town. Also, shitty players will wifom it and scumslip.

Oh, I'm just town. I'm not gonna claim any more than that, because then I'm doing scum's work for them.

Weird thing to say.

Weird to not make a PR or VT claim so scum doesn't have to spend a NK to figure out if I am a PR or not? Shut it.

I'm not really convinced you're scum or town right now, Sven. Leaning more town than scum, but who knows?

Fence sitting on miller issue.

Oh, so 'Fence-sitting' is the thing people say when they've got no good argument against why someone might be hesitant. Everyone must be decisive, right? I couldn't possibly be trying to have some sort of exchange with Sven here at all.

Don't worry so much about that, Orcinus. I'll be playing pretty regular town today with a bit of sleuthing if I find time for it.

More pointless town talk. This is still only his 2nd post, how many times has he said "town"?

If you can't perceive a point in it, maybe you should order glasses.
Furthermore, I'm explaining to Orc how I'll be approaching this game.

Not putting a vote anywhere since I don't feel strongly enough to do so.

Still 2nd post.

Yeah, it's my second post. What's the point?

VOTE: TiphaineDeath

Yeah still 2nd post.

Probably P-Edit or to put pressure with a vote.

Regardless, I'm not going to think of you as miller-tracker, but as Sven, the maybe-town-guy.

Not 2nd post any more! Still fence sitting on miller.

Look at the above. And, if you'd pay attention, in this post I put Sven in a town bucket while saying that the miller claim isn't as interesting as Sven's playing altogether.

I'm always town. And never any cool roles, like Monado-wielder.

He really wants to emphasise his alignment, doesn't he?

Just to get it through your thick head. :3

I'm a girl, too. Girl-power, I guess.

Girl claim? Your profile says male! Obviously I'm not suggesting this is a scumtell, but it confuses me all the same.

The character in my role/character PM is a female.

@Sajin: You're probably scum, since you can't figure out anything from what I've posted so far and you're so quick to dismiss me as a useless fluffer of radio noise or whatever wiki-able word you're using this time. You've also been perched pretty conspicuously all game. Who remembers that Sajin is even in this game, off the top of their heads? Not I.
But, really, it makes me sad that you're so cruel, since I can only read you as a town jerk or scum trying to suffocate a weaker voice.

Scum claim harder please.

Not seeing how this is a scum claim. This is literally how I felt about Sajin at the time.

@Beauty&Beast: Think you're reading too much into things, also, I think it was GIF that you should attribute the "is that really a slip" to, rather than me. I could be wrong here, but, eh. Otherwise, I really like your performance in this game, so you're town in my books.

HARDER I SAY.

Still not seeing it. I'm correcting B&B on misattributing a town-tell, and stating that I see B&B's post up that point as town.

@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.

Ooh that's good, that's real good.

Messin' with orc is always good.

Anyways,
VOTE: Orcinus_theoriginal

You're too infallible and it doesn't sit right. Town should be more skeptical of you.

Oh man that's the one, perfecto.

Yeah, and it's true, what I said.

I can't be bothered to keep walling. Everything I read from varsoon gives me weird vibes. This is scum.

So, when I flip town, despite claiming town, reiterating that I'm town, and even playing town, you'll be convinced that I'm town then, right?
Then fucking vote for me, you shit.

[Varsoon]

It's not cad-b it's cab-d. If you can't remember it, use "C".

Cool, I'll try to remember.
Honestly, people are going to get your name wrong on here.
I've been Varswoon and Varshoon and Vorsan, even.

[Varsoon]

@Rev, Give me a second, I'll refute all your points. I care, and I have you as town, but you're making me really doubt that, and, as town, that's probably not something you wanna do--make town think you're scum, that is.

Could you scum it up any more?

Again you use subtle town references to emphasise your alignment. I don't feel the need to do that when town. This follows from your very first post, which is a town claim. This is what I mean by obvious scum. It's almost too obvious.

I don't care if any townies think I'm scum. I'll either get lynched or vig'd, then yay the miller issue is cleared up. It's actually a lot easier to play miller than I anticipated, at least so far it is.

Slam a vote, start a wagon, and get me lynched.
I'm town now and I'll still be town then.
Alternatively, you could actually hunt scum.

[Varsoon]

Then fucking vote for me, you shit.

This is feigned anger. Yet another scum tell. Does anyone think he's actually pissed with me because I ran a case vs him? I don't see why he'd be pissed if he's town.

I'm like 95% sure we have scum here in varsoon. I'm certainly willing to put my vote there.

vote - varsoon

If town doesn't want to swing for varsoon, I think I like an AJ lynch over 2 for this reason...

@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.
Also, why bring up something like "AJ or Varsoon, the guy who sheeped him", when in 367 you do the same thing with your vote?
I feel like you're scum-slipping, and you're trying too hard to play town-leader.

An AJ scum flip will look really bad for varsoon imo.

"Yeah, let's set up lynches, that way, when I bus my partner, we can lynch out a free town."
Or you're just working on faulty logic.
The correlation between AJ and me is poorly founded here, since I'm making reference to something Orc said. If you'd pay attention, I've had AJ as scummy for most of the game here, and if he flips scum, then I'm right. I'm a bit hesitant to say it's 100% scum slot, since I could see town motivation in some of his posts.
I'm glad that you can 'read' emotions from text, or tell that it's feigned anger or not.
Thanks for the vote, hope my wagon goes over the hill and you feel really stupid on my flip.
Although, as I've learned, most players of this game have no humility, nor do they ever blush.

Wow, just wow.

vote varsoon

I hereby formally apologize rev, I think I was wrong about you.

I've never read town write "Wow, just wow."
Scumslip.

[Varsoon]

Can I have a cookie? Which one is this, I always confuse you two. And what is happening is that we are playing mafia. Amazing, I know.

Majiffy. The one who capitalizes and uses punctuation.

And

WOW!

What a

revelation!

How about giving me some footnotes about what you think is

actually going on

in the game instead of being a useless twit?

B&B, I may have been wrong about you.

[Varsoon]

Wow, just wow varsoon.

:3

Adorable, but elementary.

[Varsoon]

Wow, just wow varsoon.

:3

Adorable, but elementary.

Sadly, I'm not a lolicon.

[Varsoon]

ok, basic reads:

Rev - null, but not liking putting his null reads in scum pile.
Cabd - townie
Metal Shounic - null
Varsoon - annoying but town
and AJ - same as always, jerky. leaning scum

Explain the Varsoon read.

Varsoon, I think you're scum at this point, but honestly, I think a lot of it is mob mentality on the part of others, except for Rev. So if you'll kindly redirect me to a post or posts you've made that details every reason you're not scum instead of saying you've been playing town and leaving at that, I'll retract my scumread.

Now I have to ISO myself to prove I'm town to you?
Eh, I'll try.

[Varsoon]

Anyway, I'm out for the day.

I'd like for town to shift focus from Sven and look at everyone else in this game. It's a big game, so keep your heads up and don't tunnel.
We've got time to evaluate a few people before day ends.

In response to:

Spoiler:

@Sajin: pretty obvious what? Please enlighten me because I'm already at the stage where sven's rebuttal looks like he's trying to wiggle out of the situation.

I would forgive his newness to calling the two different aspects of his singular role as "roles" considering they are both standalone role names.

Varsoon is town too.

I'm

always

town. And never any cool roles, like Monado-wielder.

you can have mine. both of them

He even implied you would have to take one you probably would not like (miller) with the one you would like (tracker). I don't think it was a tell at all and is weak reasoning. Additionally it actually makes a lot of sense as it shows me his frustration at the heat a miller claim brings but also acknowledges it as a "cool role" at the same time. That post is one of the main reasons I suspect he is town.

Peeking back in.

Sajin, that vote on me does nothing. Why didn't you ask some questions with it, for me?
Makes me sad, Sajin.
Makes me sad.


Anyway, more out-of-this-game nonsense aside,
I could see how people'd want to lynch Sven.
We've got time, though, so why rush anything?

Ok, Why do you have so many useless fluff posts in thread? Why is your signal to noise ratio horrible? Is this style of posting the usual for you, in your opinion? Why are you sad?

nacho I am here I am all caught up!

okay buldey is making 2 look better for asking you the same question that I did about your read on cabd but I am still going to lay out some thoughts.

I didn't like the way she called sven "dummy". as far as I know that particular loving endearment has been reserved for me but it is more that it is weirdly placed; she only gets that way when as scum, she hasn't really even done it as a special lately probably cos I have gotten better about spotting her special game and will leave her alone. to me she is saying the right stuff and the timing is right but she still feels a bit off. there is a detachment from everything that I do not like. she said in poetic justice that her play on this site is different but the only game we have played together on here is the pj game. I can push her a bit to get a better read but I will be honest, I am tired I am in too many games right now and I was sick for the better part of yesterday. the homestuck game kept putting my heart out of rhythm like I really cannot stand our fights when they get that bad and I know it is unpleasant for her too. I think we are both sick of the dynamic that we have been stuck in for over 2 years. I really don't like how detached she is but buldey just tweaked my towndar a bit and if he continues to do so then I am going to stick with my read which was to townread her. if I get a scumread off of her I will let you know but it will be a buldey/majiffy shitshow that this site has never seen the likes of that is why I was honestly considering replacing out when I told you you are not going to like what I have to say. if you get a town read on buldey and I do too then I am going to just accept that feri's town game is indeed very different on here.

the exchanges between her and sven for a moment smelled like scum theatre and reminded me a bit of her and sparkle in the homestuck game. sven reminds me a bit of me and I am surprised feri never mentioned that. especially with the "wtf is this shit" comment lol. I think it is super risk <little reward for scum to claim miller on d1 cos if there is a vig with half a brain they will make it nowhere near to endgame. miller/tracker on the other hand is a brilliant scum gambit cos it leaves a kernel of possible usefulness that would at least get him to midgame I mean sajin is already like "hey let him live til d3!" and he has a good point, but leaving a scum tracker in the game is REALLY dangerous cos increases scum's potential to find specials. scum would have to be really confident that they could convince town that they were town for realz and would require a lot of skill. I don't know sven so I do not know if he has that skill level or confidence or not.

my earlier town read on sven came from that some of his reactions and thinking matched my own a bit. but the timing of his second claim of miller tracker and not just miller is atrocious I mean it was like someone went boo! and he is like MILLER TRACKER ACK ACK ACK! he did something else I did not like which was to undermine yours and orc's town read on feri, he sounded downright petulant. I see why you think he is scummy but I need to interact with him directly.

gif felt good, sajin too, I like where mac's head is at. staying with orc and you as town. varsoon looked good with the "he is claiming 2 roles is that a slip????"

that is all I got right now

orcinus, re svenskt I'm reminded of borkgame day 2 pretty forcefully. your thoughts?

- f

I've learned my lesson re Sven. But I see where you're coming from

Good morning

Quick skim. Don't like varsoon as usual. TD is shit. Cabd town read got questioned--ill see if I can get to it, phone posting cases doesn't work very well.

Glad to see more people posting. Hi mollie

VOTE: TD

Sheep

jeez peeps 15 pages already? And me sharing a computer this is gonna be interesting...

Yeah I am seeing differences in Sven from the game we played before and miller AND tracker??? that just seems odd combo together.....

So far 2 is looking like leaning town... give me more time and I will be able to solidify more on my read on them. Have played with fery and Bulder before

Played with Nacho loads and so far he feels pretty much his town meta.... Though he does have a tendency to replace into scum slots LOL... but yeah feels towny to me.

Orc hmm I would say leaning Town at this point. Seems like the Orc I know.

B and B I have played with both Mollie and Jiffy several times so will take a good look at their ISO. Should be able to nail a read on them fairly easily.

Not much yet I realize but yeah still V/LA here peeps NS and I are sharing a computer.

Oh news NS and I are now engaged ♥

Why are we still on the Miller/tracker thing and not lynching scum TD? I am very mildly put off that we have yet to focus the minute attention needed to lynch that motherfucker.

Let's face it, TD is scum. If you want Sven to be scum in your happy world, that's fine, too. But confirmed scum die first.

Now tell me who's scummy

Aj

Or Varsoon, the guy who sheeped him

@Sajin: You're probably scum, since you can't figure out anything from what I've posted so far and you're so quick to dismiss me as a useless fluffer of radio noise or whatever wiki-able word you're using this time. You've also been perched pretty conspicuously all game. Who remembers that Sajin is even in this game, off the top of their heads? Not I.
But, really, it makes me sad that you're so cruel, since I can only read you as a town jerk or scum trying to suffocate a weaker voice.

@Beauty&Beast: Think you're reading too much into things, also, I think it was GIF that you should attribute the "is that really a slip" to, rather than me. I could be wrong here, but, eh. Otherwise, I really like your performance in this game, so you're town in my books.

@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.
Also, why bring up something like "AJ or Varsoon, the guy who sheeped him", when in 367 you do the same thing with your vote?
I feel like you're scum-slipping, and you're trying too hard to play town-leader.

@Rach: Congrats on the engagement! I'm pretty much engaged to school now, myself. Could you give us some scum reads? I don't like how you're typically not very vocal/give very null/town reads. /shrug.

@AJ: oof, I can understand frustration over the focus on Sven's maybe-a-PR status, but this is just too savage. I usually read exasperation as town, but it's a bit bluffy here.



Anyway, my current scum-reads are Orc, TD, GIF, and Sajin.

GIF's not nearly as active as I'd expect, and the plays so far have been the usual buddying with me, but not nearly as much pro-town content as I tend to see there. It's a weaker scum-read to be honest, but I want to see more out of GIF so I can be more sure about the alignment here.

Orc's approach is a headache, as usual. Lots of posts make the thread really difficult to follow, which is disorienting for town, especially since other players feel compelled to respond all the time. It's just a means of letting scum lurk harder and active scum have a bigger voice. Sure, you could argue that a chatty scum is more liable to slip, but I'm not so convinced. After all, most scum play as town as they can, right? Regardless, Orc's voting patterns and inconsistencies really make me want to see Orc as a D1 lynch.

Anyways,
VOTE: Orcinus_theoriginal

You're too infallible and it doesn't sit right. Town should be more skeptical of you.
Also, Orc, lighten up. It doesn't suit you to be so rigid.
Here is funny picture, maybe it will make you laugh.



P-EDIT: Serious bro, chill the more out.
I dislike how you'd like to see more from those on Nacho's town list, but don't mention me.
It's a real heart-breaker.


Also, I'd really like people to use the names of the hydras, rather than their owners'. It makes it less confusing for guys like me.

11: RVS Vote
13: Why even say this? You're pressuring an RVS vote, I guess?
24: In response to what? You really seem to just be throwing a vote down to see what sticks, and this is the first of many. You bring up my sheeping as a cause to put votes on me, but this currently looks like a sheep of Nacho, if anything. You hop on the easiest wagon, which would be one on a D1 PR claim.
27 and post 29: You just seem lynch-hungry rather than actually trying to garner info. It's a lot of "What the Fucks" and "Don't Insult Us", rather than actual worth-a-shit town play.
30: Seems like you don't like absolutes. I'll point out every time you use an absolute from here on out, since you don't seem to think you're inconsistent.
37: "there is obviously a scum motivation behind a fakeclaim" -absolute. " I don't even know where to start in explaining how that doesn't work." -Absolute. It could work.
38: More of the same thing from 13. Now that you're out of RVS, it just seems like a thing you do. Of course, you can explain the wagons you don't clusterfuck over a cliff with "I supported wagons that weren't popular, see? I'm not scum!" Too easy of a break to give you.
57: Despite being so dead-set on Sven as scum, here you return to a player who hasn't even likely been online since your RVS push. It seems like a positioning tactic to come off as more consistent, but it's inconsistent with how you felt about Sven just minutes before.
58: Playing town.
68: Sets up lynches. If Sven is your scum-buddy, that is. If Sven flips town, then this just looks like town-positioning and even I've done this as scum.
81: "Name a Lurker", I really don't see any town motivation to amusing this sort of WIFOM coming from Cabd.
87: So, departing from the pressure that went nowhere and the Sven that you still think is scum, here's a GIF vote because he avoids hot-topics? What about the other half of the playerbase? Literally looks like a vote put on GIF for being active, hinging on levied offenses that are the very things that Orc is decrying in this post.
92: More absolutes, calls Cabd town and all that. Honestly, I've given up on stating every technically absolute thing you've said, but jeeze, man, c'mon.


Ug, I'm only halfway through this ISO on you and it's already a headache. Let's fast-forward:

108: Sonic vote again. Really wants this. Could literally be pressuring one of the fifty-two lurkers but keeps with sonic because town's consistent and Orc sure is town.
119: Throwing the vote around like it is RVS despite the game being 100 posts deep.
133: If the policy of Rach is a joke, it's one made in bad taste. Also, nice townlist. Should be a null-list.
141: Hey, nice to be in another game with you, I look forward to having fun and--oh, no, nevermind, you're a jerk. Refer to my recent posts on why this is a problem.
367: Talked about this already. The fact you keep an RVS-esque joke thrown down during 200 posts is really strange, given your voting methods so far and the fact you're so opposed to me/see me as scum.
436: Weak rationale on a weak vote on another new entry. Again, seem to be just tossing around a vote.
667: 200 posts later, a return to the TD wagon that didn't push itself enough, I guess. You never stay with any wagon, but seem to bounce to what makes sense at the time.
679: Am I supposed to read your votes as pressure? Why aren't you squeezing harder and on more questionable players? The most active players are Nacho, 2, and Sven, outside of you.

dntfkingcare
Sajin
TiphaineDeath
Andrius
Aj The Epic
Ghostlin
BROseidon 2
Metal Sonic
TMTOLBTWNTOF
fferyllt

These people all have less than 10 posts in a thread verging on 700 total.
Orc and pals, can you be less chatty?
Go talk to people in AIM or something.
It's literally noise -and- confusion, and it lets players like TD and AJ, who have been pressured fairly, just sit back and do nothing while others gab, waffle, and WIFOM the game into oblivion.


P-EDIT:
To your questions,

So, a relatively inexperienced player can't understand a typical scummy mentality? Cool. Let's talk in more absolutes, since you're so fond of them.
Or not.

I'd prefer to leave other games out of the discussion of this game because people should be judged solely on their performance in this game to find their alignment in -this- game.
You mentioned not liking meta-defenses earlier, I figure you'd actually understand where I'm coming from with this.

A player could play a literal thousand games of mafia and never be in one setup with a miller.
I'd like it if you'd stop trying to debunk my authority and voice solely because I am speaking with how I would see scum versus my limited knowledge of the hundreds of possible mafia roles.
It's a shitty approach, not only in-game, but also from the perspective of personal interaction, because you're not only attacking the validity of what I have to say here, but of my voice entirely.

It doesn't matter if something is or isn't intended as a reaction test if it gets reactions. Sven's claim pulled us out of a stagnant RVS and gave this game direction. Scum or not, Sven's PR claim helps town due to the posts surrounding it and the activity it has caused.

Oh, cool, nevermind what I have to say, it's an OMGUSBUSRUSIDGAF. I'm glad you can continue to write me off with game terminology. "I don't have to listen to you, noob." That's a damn good place to be. Also, every person who ever voted someone in response never did so for pro-town reasons, it's always OMGUS, am I right?

What I'm saying, although less eloquently there than here, is that you're commanding too much authority with your posts, when you're not spending time distancing yourself from any of that with "They were sheeps" and just one-line reactions that make this thread as long and hectic of a read as it currently is.

If you are town, I'd like to see you play it more authentically, rather then looking a whole lot like a scummy player covering his tracks and generating a lot of noise over nothing.

Ultimately, your play-style has been loud, but without substance. Your defenses seem more like backpedaling rather than standing your ground. The average user has posts about 10~20 times in this forum and you've made over 100 posts, and to what end?
You also support a really suffocating, elitist playstyle towards me, at the very least. I'd like to have a fun game with everyone in this thread, regardless of alignment, and it's pretty damn unfair how you've been towards me.
So, yeah, I hold a vote on you for personal reasons coupled with logical ones.
You're scum, through-and-through.

Keeping my vote where it is.


Also,
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller

Wiki says that a Miller claim D1 is an approach, which makes me think it's a common enough thing.


Copied the post list, sorry about having feryllt in there.
Although, you should be aware of my own position regarding Hydras--I don't know who make them up.


WIFOM: Any reasoning can be argued as 'fake' reasoning for scum to push a town wagon. You can paint things whatever way you want to, but at the end of the day, I feel that the reasons I had for voting TD were sound, as town.

There's a difference between confidence and what's going on in your posts.

"Anyone decently experienced in mafia knows what a miller is"
I don't. Well, didn't.
Also, what was that thing you said about absolutes?

Holding to the same reasons I had in 684.
I'll put my vote elsewhere when I feel stronger about another one of my scum-suspects.
I'm interested to see how you play from here until the end of D1.


P-EDIT:

Orc's gonna Orc, I suppose.

@Sven: I agree. You think Ghostlin's a good candidate?

@Mac: Previous scum games for me? Only in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=27133 and http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=28111. So far, I've just tried to play really hard town as scum, whereas, with town, I've been trying different approaches on this site. Orc's not that happy with one of my approaches, because it scares him. Also, because he pressured the -same- wagon on me before and he's thinking maybe this time it's gonna flip him a -different- result. Regardless, I would care less about how anyone, especially me, has played before this game. What's important is what I've done in this game alone. That'll let you know what my true alignment is, even before the flip.

@Orc: Hehehe, because if I said I was trying to get a reaction back then, it wouldn't really be a genuine test, would it? There's times when this is obvious, and others when it is bullshit. Me, making a good case for my TD vote and then adding that I'm sheeping AJ? No one should even question that.
Honestly, if everything that you post isn't an attempt to get other players to respond in some way, then you're playing the game in a way that isn't very constructive. Don't get all upset just because you've bought tickets to the ruse cruise.

P-P-Edit:
Orc, you're delightful, but that's the weakest attack you could have made on me. "It doesn't make any logical sense and he flipped town D2 in the other game!! Lynch him!"
Garsh, you know how to flatter a boy.

i think the fact that varsoon goes up against you speaks in his favor.

My case is crap, don't worry about it.
I just wanna see what Orc has to say.

Guess Orc's town, given the responses. I don't wanna let up that easily, though, you know?

varsoon, ghostlin is a good candidate for what? lynch? I am voting him so that should answer your question

edit, wtf varsoon

I'm a madman.


Honestly, I've got to make plays so that my wildcard reads can be put in scum or town buckets.


I think that ghost could be a good vote. Do you think our vote pressure would drive ghost to respond in interesting ways?
VOTE: Ghostlin

...this thread exploded.
I'll catchup manana, focusing on another game before sleep tonight.

Questions for You, Andrius:
Do you think TD is scum? Why or why not?
Who are your top three town reads? Why?
Do you think the artificial length of this game is a legitimate threat to town, and, if so, do you think it is a construction on scum's behalf?

@BRO: Not yet. I really haven't interacted with Varsoon yet and he won't be back for around 7 hours.

the way GIF knows me, it's terrifying.

Varsoon makes eggo look like the inferior waffle brand.
TD did shit posts then an ATE when arriving, and ATE = leans scum to me.

I try.


I quoted some other posts but they got lost, so, eh.

I feel like the BRO vote on me instead of TD is kinda weak, but it is what it is.
TD responded like I expected a town TD to. I might step back from this, but TD's less interesting than I thought.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: 2
I don't like how 2's been recently.

Also, I could care less for Orc's "Rally 'round the family" approach of just saying "Everyone vote my scumspec".
Mac's mac, so I'll always be skeptical of 'm.
I really don't like AJ's recent plays.

GIF's flip on his townread of me is neat.
Seems like Nacho is ready to flip how he feels, depending on things.

Oh, I wanted to tell BRO that I mention they had town reads on me because of the meta. I'm not using it to defend my alignment, they are.

Anyway. I'm here, so if GIF wants to chat, feel free to ask me things.


2, what's your town motivation in this game?
Who do you think is scum? Why?
Can you point me to posts where you've done good scumhunting, in this thread?

There's a few earlier ones.
In retrospect, I could see how people'd read me as scum, given this is their first game with me and they can't understand people who play differently than what they're used to.
I should probably return to my Ghostlin or TD wagon, but Rev and AJ have been really out of line lately.
UNVOTE: for now. I'm not entirely sold. I need to look over the game some more.

[Varsoon]

Haven't paid much attention to Orc or 2,, but Nacho literally always plays the same from what Ive seen. So nulln o him

It's beautiful that Orc and 2 have made the most posts in this game but they're also usually in null piles or are pretty controversially read.

[Varsoon]

@Sajin: Sorry about being shitty town.
Give me the post number of your case and ask any other questions you now have.
I've been all over the place in this game, and I'd like to -actually- do some town work rather than cynical alignment confirmations.

[Varsoon]

Haven't paid much attention to Orc or 2,, but Nacho literally always plays the same from what Ive seen. So nulln o him

It's beautiful that Orc and 2 have made the most posts in this game but they're also usually in null piles or are pretty controversially read.

this is a lie

did varsoon do the gambit yet

Wasn't rules-legal.

[Varsoon]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Heehehheheheh

[Varsoon]

I strongly believe Varsoon for town.

Rev, back off

HOW? Explain to me how Varsoon can be strongly believed for Town.

Sometimes you've got to have a village idiots. You'll figure out who it is eventually. If not later, then var...soon.
http://mirrors.rit.edu/instantCSI/

[Varsoon]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Your demonic glee at Varshoon's gambit and trying to lead Town indicate two things to me:

1) You're Town
2) You're glad to see Varshoon fail at this.

I confirmed Orc like this years ago in this game :3

[Varsoon]

Honestly, though, I'm glad to see your recent posts, Ghostlin. They paint you as having a very town mindset, and come from a pretty genuine place.

That said, do you have any questions for me?

For you, I'd like to know your top three scum suspects and who you hold as definitely/most likely town.

[Varsoon]

B&B, I may have been wrong about you.

Maybe. Were you reading us as scum? If so, then yes, you were.

Didn't catch this earlier.
I've been going back and forth on my read on you (waffling, is what the plebs would say), but I'm feeling a lot better about calling you town as of recent. Your posts have a certain clarity and drive and rationale to them, rather than being the spiteful mess that I usually see from scum-acting-town.

[Varsoon]

Cabd's post 2026 is soundly town for me. He's doing a good job of sussing out who he feels is scum while contributing why he's wary of those slots. It's rational, and somewhat demanding, although I don't think people are going to answer what he's asked. Could be wrong.

[Varsoon]

ok, basic reads:

Rev - null, but not liking putting his null reads in scum pile.
Cabd - townie
Metal Shounic - null
Varsoon - annoying but town
and AJ - same as always, jerky. leaning scum

Assuming that Keyblade has caught up to the thread by this post (otherwise, reads are a bit pointless), seems too much like he's fence-sitting and agreeing with the public. I've got to wonder why there's only reads on 1/4 of the population of this game, too.

Keyblade, you're just way too much of a wildcard, so,

KEYBLADEWIELDER: I'd like to know who you think is definitely scum, and WHY.
Furthermore, if you could provide explained reads (maybe a sentence or two each) for every player in this game, I'll believe that you've caught up.
Otherwise, you come off to me as scum trying to go under the radar.
And I don't like scum who fly under my radar.

[Varsoon]

also just a heads up for all of you

i had meta with Keybladewielder before,

he's a bad player

please take note

Metal, it's weird that I'm awake at 4 AM.
Weirder is that we're on the same page.
I didn't even see this in P-EDIT.


I'd like to know the same from you. Your posts have been pretty light on content up to this point and I feel like you've got a very powerful few points to make, but that a lot of players doubt you/put you in scum piles based on the content and articulation of what you've posted so far. Could you please explain your current scum-reads, and let us know who you think is definitely/most likely town. Also, if you have any questions for me, this is a good time to pitch them, as we're both online.

Ultimately, I feel like you could be town, but I want to hear a lot more from you before I can verify that. You've been playing a somewhat shy hand so far, and if you're gonna be town, you gotta expose yourself and open up.

[Varsoon]

^wont work

he's really bad

Hey, don't discredit players like that. It's rude to them, regardless of how good or bad they are.
I bolded my questions, so if Keyblade doesn't respond to them, I'll take it as general disinterest/dodging.

[Varsoon]

@Sajin: Sorry about being shitty town.
Give me the post number of your case and ask any other questions you now have.
I've been all over the place in this game, and I'd like to -actually- do some town work rather than cynical alignment confirmations.

@SAJIN: I want to re-iterate what I've said here.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that there's not much hypocritical, considering that I've got less than half the posts that 2 does.
How do people not have a solid read on 2 yet?
I'm doing an ISO right now to solve this once and for all, at least, for myself.
There's no way a player is 400 posts deep and people haven't agreed on an alignment.

[Varsoon]

One page deep in the ISO so far.
Right now, it is actually a hard call for me.
966 is the first actually solid lists of reads from 2, and it's a safer list that most.
2 does a lot of talking with active players, but even moreso, it seems, with players that 2's played with before.
Therefore, 2's list is informed by the consensus.
This is the scariest WIFOM situation for me, as I can never tell if it's a town-tell or scum-tell when people make lists informed by consensus.
In all of page 1, seems largely unsure of my slot, feels like my play is a bit crazier than it was in borkgame, and almost writes me off.
2 doesn't push cases. There's 1 vote in 200 posts alone, and it becomes an unvote and even a town-read.
In fact, 2 seems to with-hold information that 2 gets, unless asked directly about it. There's a lot of prodding around with questions here and there, and meta-speculation, but not nearly as much declarations from 2.

Two pages deep:
It's really easy to tell who 2 thinks is town or scum, at least, on the level of what's written.
2's way too reliant on meta. Should I ever be in a game where I'm scum and 2 is town--I will kill 2 with this knowledge.
1298 is probably the biggest post 2's made so far.
1301 explains 2's stance and makes reading 2 easier.
1302 is the second read-list. There's some disparity here, as nulls no longer exist and cabd and GIF join the scum-pile. I like that I've graduated to maybe-town instead of null. Also, it's important to notice that Sven is still a town read but Andrius, GIF, and Cabd are no longer town reads, with GIF and Cabd falling into scum-territory. Worth noting, but I don't know to what end. :/
AJ actually notices this right away. Very astute! 2 explains that if GIF and Cabd are town, then TD is scum, and vice-versa seems true. 1337 explains this fairly.
2's work against TD is pretty interesting, but what's more telling of a town-alignment is how 2 asks 2-confirmed-town why certain players are in scum-town lists. Just feels really town to me to be asking things from people you know are town, and discerning shifts in attitudes about players.
I really wish 2 would explain the vote in 1447.
2 calls Reverend terrible. I can actually agree with this. I was sure of Sven being town, but Reverend had to go and ruin that for me. Reverend's posts have been really toxic and haven't moved the game forward for town as much as I'd like.
1640 just rings true as town. This is the kind of posting I find myself doing as town.
1655 actually gets to the heart of why I won't be voting for Rev.
Buildermar (hope that's spelled right) gets reaaaaallly frustrated and starts capslocking out, although this sort of rage seems hinted at in earlier posts.


Ultimately? I'm reading this slot as town. 2's just been really held back with votes and hasn't put forth any bullshit scum-reads. All of 2's reads are pretty explained at one point or another, and through ISO, it's really easy to see how 2 came to have those reads through interaction with other players.

That said, I'm actually pretty confident that there's scum between our famous lurkers (Everyone with less post than the FUCKING MOD ((TD, TMT, Andrius, Sajin, dntfckingcare, Keybladeweilder))).

I've got this boner for active-players being scum, but I'll rest it for now.
In fact, out of the active players, I'm so sure that Nacho, 2, B&B, Reverend, and Orc are town that I'm actually willing to doubt them because they've so perfectly played themselves into that bracket. GIF, I'm not so sure about, but his conversations with me make him pretty damn town. Cabd, Ghostlin, AJ, BRO, Rach, and Mac are maybe-town for me, and that's the scariest thing. I'm less/more confident about some of those than others, but, damn, I just don't know.

For now,
VOTE: TiphaineDeath
You're the scummiest.

[Varsoon]

@Sajin: Sorry about being shitty town.
Give me the post number of your case and ask any other questions you now have.
I've been all over the place in this game, and I'd like to -actually- do some town work rather than cynical alignment confirmations.

@SAJIN: I want to re-iterate what I've said here.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that there's not much hypocritical, considering that I've got less than half the posts that 2 does.
How do people not have a solid read on 2 yet?
I'm doing an ISO right now to solve this once and for all, at least, for myself.
There's no way a player is 400 posts deep and people haven't agreed on an alignment.

Post count is not indicative of alignment nor is it indicative of how easy someone is to read.

You probably just have a flawed perspective on post count->alignment.

Just lower your fluff content and keep your posts on topic is all I ask. One of the reasons Orc could not find your gambit is the amount of fluff posts in the thread. Post 1006 is the relevant concerns I brought up about you and I am still interested in why you self described yourself as a weaker voice and I am also curious what you think is a "suffocating playstyle". Look it up in that post for context.

And yes 400 posts may not be enough to determine alignment.

Look, I can understand that, but there's definite trends in how active scum are, right? Furthermore, I postulate that if a player has posted a lot (400 posts qualifies), then those posts should, somewhere, somehow, be indicative of alignment. Not that many players are so skilled in blowing smoke up our asses.

I'll try to keep fluff posts to a minimum, but I want you to know that I typically don't post unless I have a reason to do so.
In regards to 1006:
I see myself as a weaker voice because I don't have very much experience on this site. More experienced players are less likely to consider what I have to say, and actually seem to prefer conversations that exclude me. Often, I bring up who I think is scum, and it gets largely ignored, or blown off as me giving off lots of noise rather than actually hunting scum.
The suffocation of a weak voice refers to when people discredit me, or other players who aren't given much town-merit. Something along the lines of what Orc is doing, where he considers everything I have to say as absurd, rather than, you know, holding some sort of content or approach. It's especially bad when personal assaults are tied in, as it makes me not want to do work for town because town doesn't care/will treat me like crap whenever I do. The same goes for people treating other players that way. Suffocation is a way of keeping town that could have a say from wanting to participate, and, therefore, reads as scummy to me.
I feel I am a weak voice because I can't start a wagon, no matter how much evidence or text or effort I pour into it. I can put a vote, but people won't buy it unless it's backed by one of the 'bigger' players.

Varsoon: question:


Why do you decide to change your play style?

Claiming vanillager is suspect at best, but I'm sure you do not do this every game(pulling this shit assumption out of my mouth, but yeah)

Why do you choose this style of play for this game?

Oh, I decided awhile ago that I'm claiming my alignment in every game I play.
It'll give me laughs and it'll be really funny whenever I finally roll scum and claim it immediately.
Of course, for the people who can't fathom why I'd do it, they WIFOM all over the place.
It's fun to watch people doubt you, when you're telling the truth. They'll scream and shout and run circles all because of one little truth.
You've seen how that's been in this game, neh? It's telling of alignments, I feel. It lets me get better reads on folks when I can say a truth and others foam at the mouth over it.

What is interesting is that you're quick to call me vanilla here and otherwise. I never claimed VT. Just said my role wasn't very cool.
For this game, I'm taking a bit of a hybrid approach. I'm pushing the buttons of players I know how to pressure, and I'm sussing out a few reads for myself and for others.
I don't think I've done a lot of work for town, unless they read my interactions and interpretations as confirming a few townies in.
I'd like to get a lynch in before the day ends, so I'll be a bit less fluff-posty, I suppose.

[Varsoon]

hey varsoon.

aside from the utter clumsiness of rule breaking, how did your gambit work?

It confirmed Reverend as town for me, even if he's a really rude player.

Also, the way 2 interacted with it, wanting me to use it on him, then calling me retarded once I revealed what I was up to--that's pretty town, too.

So, ultimately, I got 2 town of it, which, frankly, is way better than the 1 tell it would've given me.
:3

[Varsoon]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Your demonic glee at Varshoon's gambit and trying to lead Town indicate two things to me:

1) You're Town
2) You're glad to see Varshoon fail at this.

bad logic here.

maybe he just found it really funny that it would break the rules so brazenly? I know I did.

Mac, have I told you that you're solid by me?
You keep making me smile in this game, and it's posts like this that make me think you're definitely town.

[Varsoon]

hey varsoon.

aside from the utter clumsiness of rule breaking, how did your gambit work?

It confirmed Reverend as town for me, even if he's a really rude player.

Also, the way 2 interacted with it, wanting me to use it on him, then calling me retarded once I revealed what I was up to--that's pretty town, too.

So, ultimately, I got 2 town of it, which, frankly, is way better than the 1 tell it would've given me.
:3

I want to know how it worked though. buldermar's clever; perhaps he thought he could manipulate it.

map it out for me.

So, there's how I planned for it to work, and how it actually turned out.
I assume you understand what I was going with plan-wise.
If you don't, I'll lay it out here:

Spoiler:

Player X claims their character, alignment, flavor paragraph, win-con, and abilities.
Player Y, who is running this text, claims their character, alignment (minus PR), flavor paragraph, and win-con.
All of the other players can refer to the three bodies of text before them (X's claim, Y's truthful claim, and their own verified PM).
These other players, as a jury, can discern the rhetorical differences/similarities between X's claim, Y's claim, and their own PM, and can tell if X is lying.
This relies heavily on the person who wrote the PMs having consistent rhetoric, and writing the flavor rather than copy/pasting it.
In this game, though, I looked up things and figured that Bork had to have written the flavor, and that flavor seems pretty indicative of one's role.
Regardless, we'd have a better claim to work with, and it'd further confirm me as town.
I kinda knew this was sorta totally rules-breaking though, so...

What actually happened was that
I suggested an absurd gambit that was not rules-legal.
They didn't know that it wasn't, and so Reverend was willing to go through with it if it'd clear his name.
2 was interested in using it since he was being wagoned and would rather be revealed as town through it if it would work.
I revealed how it worked.
Bork immediately said it was not rules legal.
Reverend gave me hell for it, confirming he's likely town, since he put his faith in it.
2 (or Buildermar, at least) lost his mind and went so far as to call me retarded for suggesting it, as it seemed like a good way for 2 to get out of being wagon'd.
Both of their reactions and interests in it read as town to me.
/shrug.
WIFOM it if you want, but each player saw it as a way to finally confirm themselves as town (to some extent, at least), and were both quite upset that it was totally illegal.

[Varsoon]

Ghostlin, can you explain your TMT read to me?
I think there could be scum there for my own reasons (most of which are incoherent and absurd and floating around in my head),
but I'd like to hear your reasons for TMT being at the top of your scum-list.
TD and Metal Sonic are the ones I can fully understand, based on your posts/interactions so far.

[Varsoon]

GUY IN A FREEZER, COME BACK TO US. YOUR INACTIVITY READS AS SCUMMY TO ME AND OTHERS AND I'D LIKE YOU TO GIVE MORE REASONS FOR EVERYONE TO CONFIRM YOUR ALIGNMENT

[Varsoon]

Metal Sonic, on parting, I want to leave you with some suggestions:

If you're town, please post more and be more open about who you think is town and scum. Use your vote accordingly.
Furthermore, speak up when you notice things.
Also, ask other players questions that you feel will flesh out your reads/move the game forward.

[Varsoon]

That's good and all, but 2's not scum and I won't see 2's wagon go to lynch if I have any say in it.

I agree with your points moreso than the fact that you see him not using his vote as much. What's important is that he seems to be using his vote to earn towncred, rather than pressuring scum-suspects, etc. The disparity between how he votes and how 2 votes is the difference between towniness and scuminess.


I'll give the TMT wagon more thought, although what you've provided is pretty insightful and damning. I'd like to see how TMT responds to this, if at all.

Ghostlin, to be honest,
What scares me the most isn't the obvious scum.
It's the scum who shake your hand and point out who's not town and do all the work for town.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon; you knew your gambit wouldn't work?

I knew that it was likely not rules legal.
I suppose the 'true' gambit was going through with everything and how it ended up.
At any point, I could have said 'nevermind'.

[Varsoon]

if you had gone through with this gambit, how do you know that 2/Rev could not have manipulated it to their advantage?

If it was rules legal, there's not really any way to manipulate it, as it's up to the rest of town to read the claims side-by-side and decide if the player being scrutinized had done anything to change what they'd been sent via PM instead of copy/pasting it.
But it wasn't rules legal, so, speculation on how it would have turned out/could have been manipulated are pretty moot.

also you knew it was not rules legal, so if bork hadn't been around to say no, Rev may have gone through with it and got himself modkilled?

Honestly, I hadn't considered if it was or wasn't rules legal the very first time I mentioned it. Later on, I stopped talking about it because I realized it was probably a bad idea. I finally decided to 'use' it (say I was going to do something breaking the rules and then pull back on it) to see how people would respond.
If Rev got modkilled, then it'd either end with dead scum or miller out of the game without the waste of a lynch.
I'd say that's a win/win.
Although, to be honest, getting Rev Modkilled was not my intention.

[Varsoon]

@B&B: I explained that I waffled a lot on you already, it doesn't really make it that big of a deal when you point it out after the fact. /shrug. I'm just paranoid as hell in this game.
It also feels like I'll never be accepted as a member of the team.
Weakest link, third wheel, etc.

How does the 'town bloc' feel about lynching TD, TMT, or Metal Sonic today?

[Varsoon]

@andy: She's usually a 3 or a 4.
@Rach: <3 Take care, just understand why people have conflicting reads on you.
@2: Eh, his posts just read like town to me. Feels really like he's playing without caring about survival, and his posts don't feel that survivalistic to me. I liked my interaction with him the other day.

[Varsoon]

@BRO: I don't really think it's that great of an argument against me. I mean, the one Rev raised. I'm aware of why people would think I'm scummy here, but by solely looking at my performance in my first game and this one, you're excluding the games between which have, by large, made me lose confidence in the community that plays this game. Where I was once a visitor to this site and wanted to be as humble as I could and learn the ropes, I soon found that people here can be the worst kinds of forum posters and they didn't really care for my humility. In fact, my innocence in that first game is what -cost town the game-, because I was played like a fucking card. So, no, it's not a good argument, because it denies the growth of me as a player, as evidenced by the games on this very site.


I don't know what to think in this game. I feel like scum is actually these people I've been considering as town all along, and I'm really paranoid for it.

[Varsoon]

Also, I didn't realize GIF was on VLA. I'm pretty bad about that.

[Varsoon]

Hi Venmar.

Recap of this game probably looks like:

2/Aj constant suspects

TMT is scum but no one wants to lynch for some reason

. (Had 8 null reads in his one read list)

GIF is town without question

Rev claimed miller/tracker early on in the thread

Varsoon is trolling.

Came up with a strategy that almost got people modkilled. Luckily, people actually have played this game before.

Rach is also trolling.

But apparently town.
Andrisu and BRO seem to be incredibly busy and so most of their stuff is catch-up posting
Orc, Nacho, BnB, 2 posted way too much early on. 2 still posts way too much.

Cabd is almost certainly town

(based on a few townslips)
Majiffy may get leashed by mollie
Metal Sonic has an infamous 2 minute iso of Tiphlaine Death. We're trying to get him to admit he didn't read anything. (he also "read" 30 pages in 15 minutes)
Buldermar (part of 2) posted the first wall he's ever posted (I guess)

In actual game events,

we only have 1 claim

(Sven/Rev's) which caused a lot of discussion. He claimed Miller first and 10 pages later added tracker. On switch-in, Rev only claimed Miller. Later admitted to full claim being true, said he didn't want to full claim his power role even though he expected to get lynched. Something about "Oh trackers are useless anyways..."

Yeah, this post doesn't look like scum-indoctrinating-town or throwing gas on a fire at all.
Also, it seems like things are pretty divided regarding TD. I'm looking over an ISO and it's a bit harder to read the slot, but my gut still says there is scum there.
However, AJ--I'm not going to let a post of this magnitude of scumminess just go under my radar.
The bold is everything I have a problem with. It's not a sincere recap in the least.
You seem to forgot that I claimed town. Guess you mean PR claims. In that case, then, be specific.
inb4 claiming town means nothing/wifom.

Vote: AJ the Epic

Welcome to the game, Venmar. Name reminds me of Grandia 2 (Valmar was a name in it). Anyway, I do urge that you actually read the game. Your insight could be fresh and move town in a good direction. Also, you have the added benefit of your slot being largely null and walking in very late into the day, so I feel like your commentary would be the most removed from any faction, alignment, etc.

My thoughts on recent stuff:

GIF

, you're playing a really safe game. It scares me.

Sajin

, as you may know, I have 2 as town. Do you know if this particular hydra usually plays town as passive/defensively as they have in this game? I pointed out that while I feel comfortable with how 2's been sussing out town-reads over the course of the game, I also am really paranoid about it.

Cabd

, what about my previous games is making you read me (or my role? I don't quite understand your post) as VI?

Nacho

, where are you? (Is Nacho on VLA?)

I'm -still- reading 2 as town.
I probably will until I die.
Which will suck, should I be wrong.
But I've looked stupider before. /shrug

[Varsoon]

@varsoon... have you been scum before?

Yeah, I linked those games in this thread, I think.

Regardless, yeah, and I typically am either super-obvious or I play unbearably long-winded town.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I linked those games in this thread, I think.

Damn, I thought GiF just scumslipped. Ok, so why earlier did you say "I'm always town"?

Nah, GIF's too clever to do something that obvious.

I said I'm always town because I typically get given town roles (and usually very unimpressive ones).
In the only games I've played scum, scum had huge advantages over town. In the Lylo game, all you had to do was make a convincing wagon on the other town, or let town duke it out. In Empking mafia, both the us (the scum) could redirect the investigations against us, and there were 2 Role Cops. Days were really short in both games, leading to town not having much consensus/info to lynch on.

[Varsoon]

I'm not particularly liking an AJ lynch just because I feel like AJ would have to be exceptionally skilled to play this way as scum - I still don't get why we're letting the "low hanging fruit" that is TMT live.

- b

Build a case against TMT, then.

[Varsoon]

I don't want to vote 2, because, like always, it's a notorious slot that's likely town and I know it but no one will agree on any other lynch and a nolynch is bad so

Ugh
2's town
if 2 flips scum, I guess this'll be the first time I'm wrong.

[Varsoon]

Venmar, please have some netiquette.
We don't outright ask people if they're retarded. That's really rude and crass.
If you're going to be giving your fellow players a ribbing, do it with civility and grace or don't do it at all.

[Varsoon]

Girls girls you are both pretty

now can we please focus on the game at hand?

Certainly if I replaced in a game at this late date with this much noise I would be looking at the ISOs of the primary wagons and using that as a starting point and maybe sheep the main townies duh. So that really is not an issue of his scuminess or townyness...

Who did Venmar replace? There have been so many its hard to keep up.

Replaced dntfckingcare, I think.
Just check the modpost.

[Varsoon]

Gif party?

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

I hope you see what I meant by saying I'm a weaker voice, at least, by now.

@Rach: I guess I might've thought you were scum once, but in most of my games, the first big wagon that's being pushed at the end of D1 is one that I feel is town, but that the rest of the players really want to lynch.

I'unno, maybe one day, people will listen to me.

I think 2 is town.
But we've only got 3 days.
I don't wanna vote 2.
But there's a chance I'm wrong and 2's scum.
So
I don't know what to think.
I think 2's a better town player if 2 is town than most of you guys.
But this -is- a game with 20 players.
We can mislynch a few, I think.
I don't wanna.
But we can.

[Varsoon]

^This post, makes me want to facepalm so fucking hard, I would break my forhead^

Thanks for being civil, cool, and pointing out what you might not like about the post and how it factors into the game.

[Varsoon]

I think 2 is town.
But we've only got 3 days.
I don't wanna vote 2.
But there's a chance I'm wrong and 2's scum.
So
I don't know what to think.
I think 2's a better town player if 2 is town than most of you guys.
But this -is- a game with 20 players.
We can mislynch a few, I think.
I don't wanna.
But we can.

How's that fence you're working on?

It's not a fence when I'm pretty outspokenly for 2's Town status and even made a case for it based on ISO evidence.

How's that name-calling working out for you?

[Varsoon]

@Andrius' 2659


You couldn't sound more like a stuck-up, condescending person.
People like you are why I don't want to play mafia on this site.

Regardless, 2 is town.
You could push through the 2 lynch or, you know, actually lynch someone who's likely scum AND actively doing work that is causing town misdirection, etc.

[Varsoon]

"Do something to have a stronger voice"

I'm going to stash this with ones like
"You're poor? Just make a million dollars"
or
"You're depressed? Just be happy, idiot."

The authority of voice in this game is deferred to people with a majority of games played on this site.
It isn't as if I can build that sort of credibility in one post.

[Varsoon]

@Andy: Not really a cool response, but whatever. I'd rather not talk about the way authority works in this game, or on this site, or how people play on this site, because it just leads to me being frustrated.

As far as doing other things, I've pushed for an AJ lynch.
Dude's really scummy.
However, should 2 flip town, does anyone think there's scum on 2's wagon?
Andrius, orcinus_theoriginal, Nachomamma8, BROseidon, Sajin, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mac, GuyInFreezer, TheReverend is the pool for it as of last mod post.

[Varsoon]

you took it out of context.
Andrius was just reiterating Varsoon's thought process.

GIF, can you convince me that 2 is scum?

I'm not buying it.

[Varsoon]

My top scumreads are TD, Ser Arthur Dayne, and AJ.

But these people are obviously scummy,
I think one of the 'town' is definitely scum.


Since Mac seems active--who do you think is scum/town, Mac?
I'm reading your recent activity as really pro-town, so I feel more comfortable about asking you this sort of thing.

[Varsoon]

I also really don't like Cabd, for some reason.

Vote: Cabd

I'll vote here for now.
I don't know what makes him town, and it's weird that he's so conf-town when I don't think of him as such.
I'll do some ISO work and see what I can figure out.

[Varsoon]

Var you could also look over his play here he was town in this newbie game... http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=25373

I don't like using meta against people.

I feel like Cabd's votes go against how aggressively he calls people out in his posts. In other news, he seems really reserved about who he thinks is scum/town and most of his scum/town reads AND votes feel like they're largely made in reaction to how other players feel about the slots. It doesn't feel like genuine town-play to me, but I could be wrong on this.

I think what stands out the most is the voting patterns and the engagement with the game so far. /shrug


@GIF: Okay, that makes sense, although I'm reading their back and forth as the same sort of thing that happens between me and other town I disagree with. I suppose I've gotten in spats with outspoken townies too much in my game history so far.