Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[Thor665]

Forsooth!

[Thor665]

Greetings,

Oddly enough, thanks to the newbie queue I am well aware that DH's vote is true RVS sillyness and doesn't help the town at all.
Nexus, however, appears to have solid reasons for his vote - though I think it is anti-town not to reveal them at this point.

Vote: singersinger

Bandwagons are win.

[Thor665]

Lordy lawks, why would you misrepresent the truth then!

In any case, the wagon with the most votes is probably right, and I'm on it - so I win.

[Thor665]

@Nexus - you misrepresented your reasons for voting singersinger by implying that you *had* reasons. I understand this was a joke and actually was just making a joke back at you when you revealed that you had no reasons. That you actually took my joke as an attack of some sort and are attempting to rally a defense makes it look like you have something to hide.

Unvote: singersinger
Vote: Nexus

I agree with the nose of the trained tracking animal here.

[Thor665]

You are a data dog, yes. Brilliant, this wagon is super solid and secure.

[Thor665]

Cool that you quickly jump wagons, though.

Oh, man, you're right! I'm sorry.

Why was it that I should have stayed on the singersinger wagon? Is he obvious scum and I'm just missing it?

@Devon - I am universally loved. Also, a serious vote for revenge? That's funny.

Devon is pretty likely town.
No read on DH yet.
Like my vote where it is.

[Thor665]

Wait, what? [Thor] can't possibly be serious with that Nexus line. [Nexus] clearly had no actual reasons for a vote.

[Thor] was switching from an extremely not serious wagon to a more serious one. Not too suspicious in and of itself.

So wait, do you understand me and are defending me and attacking Nexus or do you not understand me and are looking for clarification of my methods?

[Thor665]

Both. I'm looking for clarification on each of the points that I pointed out.

...okay.
To answer your "question" to me in the first half of your post please read the second half of your post.

redtail is making white noise with questionable direction. Could be scum just testing waters to see where suspicion might stick. I'd be willing to consider his lynch as second most worthwhile after Nexus.

Devon is pretty likely town.
No read on DH yet.

Devon most likely town? He doesn't have an avatar, which clearly makes him suspicious.

Vote: Devon

Also, Thor665, how can you have such a quick read on Devon, while claiming to have no read on DH?

Only an avatar vote and no commentary on the play thus far, meh. Why do you find a lack of an avatar more suspicious then what has been pointed out on Nexus?

Go read Devon again. He openly admits that his vote is for "revenge" reasons when he votes DH. This is while an active bandwagoning is going on. Newbie scum would probably have commented on the bandwagon - either hopping on it, trying to derail it for town points, or trying to start up an actual counter to protect a buddy. Instead Devon is focused on making a joke with his friend, and making a joke using language that has negative connotations. Methinks the newb would not have acted this way if having the dastardly role of scum. Therefore; likely to be town. I find this reasoning stronger then the lack of an avatar.

Why should I have a read on DH? Do you see something I missed?

[Thor665]

@Far_Cry - why are you posting so much in order to say that you're not saying anything?
Seriously - thus far you've commented that redtail is taking things a touch too seriously (???)
You also commented how we shouldn't get out of the RVS just yet (because, yknow, RVS is *so* pure and valuable if people aren't expressing opinions and votes).
Finally you've just kept saying how we need more people to weigh in all while not weighing in on anyone or putting out a single vote (despite believing RVS is worthwhile)

Unvote: Nexus
Vote: Far_Cry

Dissonance much?

@jimfinn - It is incredibly funny and amusing that you have continued your capital letter meta. I had a great and joyous belly laugh. We can now move on? Excellent.
What is your read on my town tell on Devon? Do you agree, disagree, and why is this?

[Thor665]

WTF are you talking about?! Does 4 posts sound like "a lot" to you?

A lot can be accomplished in 4 posts, or nothing can be accomplished in them. I will say your 4 posts of nothing have indeed accomplished something - a vote, from me, with love.

And I'm asking people to talk more. More general conversation.

Also, how can I weigh in on anybody at the moment? What is there to get a read on? That's why I ask for more conversation.

But, oh man, how can those people offer conversation if you won't talk more with general conversation? Probably they'll post next telling you that you need to talk more so they can then weigh in on stuff once you talk.

Again. Dissonance.

Finally, please clearly explain to me your thoughts on RVS. What does it mean to you?

It is an exciting period of the game where people both claim it's important and shouldn't/can't be skipped because of valuable scumtells that happen in it...
...and then decry me for taking things "too seriously" because it's "just RVS".

[Thor665]

TL:DR

1. I point out the dissonance I see from Far_Cry.
2. I explain why I consider dissonance a votable scumtell and ask Andrigan to explain his issue with the Far_Cry pressure.
3. I crack a (brilliant) joke at Jack's expense. He'll have to appreciate it on a delay.

================================================================================================================================

Please explain why you find this "dissonance."

To sum it up shortly - you are attempting to help the pro town act of 'having more people talk' so that there will be opinions to be assessed.
To accomplish this you are specifically not talking or saying anything of note.

So, either you believe it is pro town to talk more and are choosing not to do what you believe is pro town.
Or you do not believe it is pro town and are simply saying these things because you think other people consider them pro town.

Saying one thing while doing another = dissonance.

But getting back to the point, I guess my question for Thor is: What makes Far_cry's hypocrisy a scum-tell, rather than simply bad play-style? I ask this from you since you voted for him, rather than simply calling him in out on it. Nhammen agreed with your claims, but did not place a vote, so my question is not directed at him (though he is free to weigh in on it).

Could you be any more gentle handed with this question?

His hypocrisy is a scum tell because hypocrisy suggests the possibility of lies and lies shouldn't be coming from town in the RVS.
My vote is on him because it's the biggest scumtell I've seen thus far and if I had to choose right now who would be lynched I'd choose him.

Why are you concerned with the "hostility" towards Far_Cry? I don't recall you being worried when I was voting Nexus - did you consider that a less "hostile" vote? Why/why not?

I will post on page 5, have not read yet (deliberately).

I'm glad it wasn't accidentally.

[Thor665]

Thor665- Tell me: why are you town? Why aren't you scum? Who suspicious are you of Andrigan's comments, or are you not at all?

I am town because when the mod randomly determined roles I came up as town.
I'm not scum because I'm town.
I'm actually not sure exactly what you're asking about Andrigan's comments. Is it *how* suspicious am I of them?
I dunno, I never really classify my suspicions that well. I'll call it a suspicion level pineapple, which is more then tangelo and less then kumquat
I do find his differing reactions to your and Nexus' wagons odd, which is why I'm asking him questions about them, depending on his answers I'll adjust my feelings, I have no solid answer yet - why are you wondering about how much I do or don't suspect Andrigan?

[Thor665]

I fully understand what hyporcrisy is, and it's reasonable to accuse me of it.

This is bullSmurf. Hyprocrisy suggests lies, as you have stated, and is true. I, however, have not said any lies as of yet, so don't tell me that you can use that against me.

So was my accusation reasonable or was it not reasonable?
When you mix anger with appeasement they sort of cancel each other out.

But it shouldn't warrant such a level of suspicion as to have me lynched on the spot (as Thor has stated, saying that if he could, he would lynch me now.)

Any vote not made with that belief behind it is a vote that isn't worth the bytes it is generated upon.
Also, I said 'if I had to', not 'if I could'. Bit of a difference is to be found therein.
I'm starting to be more of a 'if I could' mentality on this point though.

I'm also fascinated by how many people are now excited about the Nexus wagon because now he's being quiet. Wh-what? Wasn't I running him up on "over-defensiveness" or something? This is silly. The next person who mentions how it's suspicious that Nexus is being quiet should be obligated to actually also explain the case/questions that Nexus is avoiding by being quiet.

[Thor665]

I don't think Far Cry is a hypocrite at all.

Far_Cry disagrees with you - sometimes.

Neutral on your redtail read - it requires both him and I to accept your opinion of what is or is not hypocrisy in order for it to serve as a relevant scumtell.

Do you actually believe Nexus is dodging something? If he's been caught so dead to rights that he's dodging something why wouldn't you stay on the obv. scum - why is redtail so much more clearly scum?
If you don't believe he's dodging why keep bringing it up? I feel like I'm missing something - what is it?

[Thor665]

I do in fact find it a little suspicious that he was quite happy to jump wagons-in RVS, if you want a wagon to get going, stay on the one you choose unless you have an actual solid reason to change. I find the reasons for my wagon a little clutchy at straws

My wagon before you was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay^3 more clutchy at straws then your wagon.
I had a solid reason to change.
Vote hopping is not a scumtell unless it is done in a way that will advance scum's agenda.
Otherwise it is null, some players hop like jackrabbit's on crystal meth and others move more like a tortoise on Vicodin.
Have you addressed yet why you find my shift so 'hoppy' and DH's shift not worth mention? Someone asked this earlier and I thought it was a good question.

I realise it's been briefly mentioned, but why is Jack waiting until page 5, and why haven't more people been bothered by this? In what way is it beneficial to the town that he waits until page five to read and input? I'm finding that quite suspicious, and so I am going to unvote and Jack until he comes back and explains what's going on.

"Hey Ma, found a way to park my vote safely and lurk for at least another full page - yay me!"

In more seriousness, Jack is probably waiting because he wishes to get a solid few pages to read through before making commentary.
The only way to decide if this is scummy is to wait and see what he says and how he acts when he comes out the other side of page 5.
Until then it's null and is basically a policy vote based on lurking, which is not the most strategic vote right at the moment.
If you're still learning the game then, scum or town, pay attention to Jack's playstyle. I found it really interesting in my first game with him.

[Thor665]

Apologies, the above was going to be attached to this one to make one bigger single post. Instead I'll just be a bit spammy. The 'Hey Ma' joke would have been funnier if taken in the proper order, I think.

Pressure is wonderful. I'm here to scumhunt, you know, not tunnel one person.

"Hey, Ma, I found scum! Oh, don't worry Ma, I won't vote them, that would be rude. I'll go find MORE scum based off connections to the obvious scum I've already caught who I'm not voting and who we haven't gotten a confirmation flip out of! I know Ma, BEST PLAN EVAH!"

I need less scummy players, please.

I don't believe this is scummy behavior for Nexus. He's apt to learning. He doesn't go about this the right way, but he takes it to heart and genuinely wants to learn how to be a better player.

What makes you think his current playstyle is more earnest town and less dodgy scum?

[Thor665]

If it's not what you meant why don't you try rephrasing what you said to help me understand?

[Thor665]

Then how about how do you disagree with my take on your actions? You seem to have announced obv. scummorz is obv. and yet you decided not to try to carry the case through, what's up with that?

[Thor665]

I'm wondering if he missed my question or what. Very curious. I would almost say suspicious.

::shrug:: pick one for yourself and run with it. I don't find it inherently suspicious since poor reading comprehension is (unfortunately) not a scumtell. The suspicious part is the possible disconnect in his head regarding DH and me.

[Thor665]

You're just repeating your questions at this point. I feel Nexus is scummy and I feel redtail is scummy. I only have one vote. Who do I want to pressure more with it? That's all there is to it.

Has redtail committed a 100% scummy action?

[Thor665]

Link?

[Thor665]

@singersinger - I reasonably agree with your opinion of Nexus as regards his in game responses. Without scum meta I can't leap all over it like a teenager in a porn factory, but I can see the angle.

Why no vote yet?

[Thor665]

You're being silly.
Vote for Far_Cry.

[Thor665]

While you're waiting for Page 7 you could always throw out a vote - might be exciting and amusing for the rest of us and could help generate data for you - win/win in my book.

The reason conversation is currently circling around such exciting obviously valuable topics as whether or not someone was over defensive is because we have 6 players who haven't figured out that votes make the game go round.

Your methods will always be workmanlike to me

[Thor665]

@DH - you missed my question in order to make a joke and post a pic. I am highly amused, now please answer the below question;

Did redtail do a 100% scummy action?

[Thor665]

@Far_Cry - what you're using as your current hypocrite defense is that you were hypocritical but aren't now, and that doesn't wash.

That's like saying - I shot someone yesterday but you can't arrest me because I'm not shooting anyone today.

Current actions don't remove past actions. I haven't seen anything from you that looks like scumhunting or townish behavior, so I'm perfectly fine still voting you. I'm asking others to vote you because that's how the game is played. Clearly though, either I'm really wrong about this, or all those people not voting yet are better at the game and need to show me how to play. (I'm pretty full of myself though, so I think the fault lies with them, natch)

[Thor665]

Hey, redtail, if the argument is legitimate - how about you vote for Far_Cry?

[Thor665]

@jimfinn - if you're uncertain of your reads you ought to sheep me and vote Far_Cry, I'm a brilliant and unique snowflake.

[Thor665]

Because I want to get a wagon on you. I'd think that's pretty obvious.

Quite frankly, at this point, if anyone else was willing to make a case and grow a set and say 'yar, me haerties, 'ere be scum!' I'd probably hop onto that action in a second. Instead we have a wagon with 2 votes (1 for 'revenge' and the other from jimfinn, he who has no opinions), and a whole bunch of single votes kinda sitting there looking at everyone and wondering why the day is going nowhere fast. Well, I've got an express ticket to Actionville, USA, and it's called bloody well getting a wagon rolling when somebody has announced a scumtell and no one else has.

[Thor665]

Tell you what, Far_Cry - how about you pick someone, make a case on them, and then I'll unvote you and support your case for a while. Won't that be exciting?

[Thor665]

@singersinger - why aren't you voting yet? How about you promise to come along with me and Far_Cry on a wacky buddy comedy road trip involving sheep, beer, and a bus of Hungarian nuns in bikinis once he makes a case?

[Thor665]

Perhaps I am being dumb.

But I do think running up a wagon will actually generate this magical contribution from everyone you're hoping for. Everyone in the game has posted at least once, what sort of contribution do you expect them to have? If it's votes well...let's get some vote movement. And if it's commenting on actions well...let's give them something to comment on.

How do you suggest we get the other players more involved?

[Thor665]

Hey...Far_Cry...remember that 'hypocrisy' thing from a page or so back?

And as for getting a case on everyone, I'm still doing some analysis. Sorry for my indecisiveness; I'm just having difficulty getting a read on some people.

You're doing it wrong.
When you are free on Saturday, I would like to see a town list from you.
Or a scum list.
Or, y'know, anything.

[Thor665]

How do you suggest we get the other players more involved?

@singersinger - since apparently we cannot discuss who is scum or who is town - please address this question.

If you don't then I will make a town list and doom us all.

[Thor665]

@jimfinn - what are your thoughts on singersinger not wanting me to ask Far_Cry for a town list or scum list while at the same time she apparently has no issues with Far_Cry asking the same from Devon?

[Thor665]

@Thor: If a wagon is so important in your mind, create a new one. Your Far Cry one has clearly stalled.

I've already said I find something scummy and have put down a vote and nobody will respond. I've asked repeatedly for people to follow along and vote and no one has responded. I've asked a couple of different people to put out a vote and promised to follow them if they did, and no one has responded. Trust me, the issue is not with Far_Cry - the issue is deeper then that. either I'm really bad at generating discussion, or we have a bunch of people who don't know how to exit RVS

That said, I'll begrudgingly agree that if I'm frustreated it is still my responsibility to (still) be trying to get these mooks to respond to anything.

@singersinger - were you responding to both posts at once? I don't think you were and your explanation doesn't even claim as such.

DemonHybrid is the biggest wagon, let's lynch him, plurality equates to brilliance. I'll ignore all the reads I had on him thus far and call him obvious scum for wanting to hang onto RVS reasoning. This is a brilliant case and should be respected.

Unvote: Far_Cry
Vote: DemonHybrid

[Thor665]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

The way this town is going I'd actually have just expected you to sit at L-2 for about a week while people debated if my references to my beard are scum or town motivated.
It's a town tell, in case anyone was wondering.

Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch.

Why should we keep an eye on Devon? Other then your joke RVS there seems to be no basis or origin to this thought.
Why do you not mention jimfinn, since you're commenting on everyone else on your wagon? If the 1st and 3rd votes are scummy, why not the 2nd?

I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

Why is my vote 'devil may care' and Far_Cry's vote is 'understandable'?

[Thor665]

I'm not feeling the redtail scum energy.

I consider Far_Cry ages ahead of Nexus - why don't you restate the case on Nexus and then see how you still feel about it. Methinks it's weaker then you're recalling.

[Thor665]

If you're using 'backed off' as a tell check out how Far_Cry reacted to being called a hypocrite (in short - he admitted to it and begged off).

I say that's the same sort of mindset and reaction, why do you think it's different and/or a better scum tell on Nexus then Far_Cry?

[Thor665]

@DemonHybrid - do you consider aggressiveness telling of alignment?

[Thor665]

@Mod - prod request; Jack

thank you.

[Thor665]

Well, if he's scum I'm happy, if he was town this game just got harder.

@everyone who is not voting - what do you need in order to actually be willing to vote and why aren't you being proactive about it?

[Thor665]

Yes, I'm talking about Jack.

Consider the fact that I consider Jack one of the best players I've interacted with on the site and my commentary makes perfect sense.

How do you see it *not* computing?

[Thor665]

You're right, I'm trying to look pro town by admitting I like the playstyle and skill of a player who is replacing out - which is what all town do and what all scum have to fake doing in order to look town. Crudsticks, foiled again!

[Thor665]

Haha, did you just admit something?

Absolutely - I just admitted to being scum - go ahead and vote me and lets get a wagon started, your evidence is pure and irrefutable.

[Thor665]

What makes you so town?

What makes me so scum?

As far as I can tell, all you've been doing is confuse and Smurf the Smurf out of town.

How have I done this? Please try to be explicit.

I would agree with singer. You're being horribly anti-town now with the sarcasm and terrible responses.

Quite frankly, I think I answered those last two posts with *exactly* the level of serious concern and consideration they deserved.

Is this a 100% scummy action?

[Thor665]

I really wish I had a vig power that could target people who haven't voted, as long as we're making wishlists. (though yours seems more likely to come true then mine )

[Thor665]

This game will not get wheels, will it?

@ANDRIGAN - are you alive? Please vote somebody.

@redtail - please ISO DH and then tell me why you aren't voting him.

@nhamman - what's the case on singersinger again? I see scumminess there but I have to wonder why the guy *sheeping* her "case" is not as worthy for a vote?

[Thor665]

@Far_Cry - the only real wagon we've had was the one on DH that got up to 4 votes, nothing else has really gotten beyond 1-2 votes. We haven't gotten discussion because about half the town is really super excited about their wagons of choice so they won't move, and the other half refuses to vote (and/or is flaking out)

@singersinger - you missed/dodged my question Frankly, so did DH, but his was a bit more of a rhetorical jab because I think it's starting to become pretty obvious how sketchy his read method is. Yours I want answered - specifically the second question to you, though the first one might amuse me to watch you answer it as well.

[Thor665]

@singersinger

1. I can't tell if you're crazy or obtuse. Let's go with this - I'm town because my role PM proves that this is so - show me evidence to the contrary or go away.
2. So I'm being aggressive about things (or as I call them scumtells) and I'm making people get defensive (or as I call it, making them respond so I can get scum reads on them) Congratulations, you have discovered that my playstyle is more aggressive then yours!

How is this confusing town?
How is aggressiveness more likely to be done by scum then town?

Your list of scum suspects is really fascinating;
Thor
Far_Cry
DH

You...ah...have sort of noticed that amongst all of my aggressive attempts to confuse town that I've sort of championed both of the other lynches on your list, haven't you? What's your case on each of the other two - I want to see how it's different then mine - go!

[Thor665]

We might need to make a list of who isn't buddying with me in this game - why is that part of so many cases? Do I have a known meta for succumbing to buddying I should be aware of?

[Thor665]

singersinger - questions, she doesn't notice them because she doesn't read, or she thinks she can dodge them. See quoted text below for questions I'd still like answered.

Unvote: DemonHybrid
Vote: singersinger

Hopefully you'll notice stuff now.

@singersinger

1. I can't tell if you're crazy or obtuse. Let's go with this - I'm town because my role PM proves that this is so - show me evidence to the contrary or go away.
2. So I'm being aggressive about things (or as I call them scumtells) and I'm making people get defensive (or as I call it, making them respond so I can get scum reads on them) Congratulations, you have discovered that my playstyle is more aggressive then yours!

How is this confusing town?
How is aggressiveness more likely to be done by scum then town?

Your list of scum suspects is really fascinating;
Thor
Far_Cry
DH

You...ah...have sort of noticed that amongst all of my aggressive attempts to confuse town that I've sort of championed both of the other lynches on your list, haven't you? What's your case on each of the other two - I want to see how it's different then mine - go!

Still wouldn't mind lynching DH either.
Someone in that mix is probably scum.
singersinger's case on DH as currently presented is megaweak.
DH's case on me is still really excited about my sarcasm and "anti-town" behavior. Still hasn't explained how sarcasm = scum or how I'm being anti-town other then being sarcastic.
His other two points just show an inability to understand the strategy of what was happening around my votes - null to obtuse read on that.

More thoughts on singersinger once she cobbles together an answer to my questions.


@DH - questions or you - what is (specifically) my anti-town behavior and how does it hurt town?
Also, sarcasm as a scumtell? How does that work? <---I may or may not be being sarcastic with this question.

[Thor665]

I had called you out for both using a pretty stretchy case on Far Cry (that hypocrite fiasco) and then voting me because "more votes are good". And your reaction to me calling that out is sarcasm. That's what makes it scummy.

???

You called me out for sarcasm when I responded to you "are you admitting something?" post when I was responding sarcastically to singersinger's case that I was scummy because I was either trying to act townie and/or was buddying to Jack as he replaced out (better's choice)

Is "Thor makes weak cases" the extent of your issue with me? If so stick to that, if not - then you really do need to explain the above.
I still don't think you explained how I was being anti-town - I guess the weak cases and sarcasm? Okaaaay...

What's your read on singersinger considering your hatred for weak cases and sarcasm?

@singersinger - Yes, I voted you so you'd notice and because I desperately crave attention at all times, it appears to be working on both counts. Looking forward to my answers.

I admit to making a mistake. My ideas of trying to not look ridiculous is wrong. It was also bad that I rage voted jimfinn (so I unvote now) But, I don't think it so scummy. True it was something to be suspicious about, but not to outright vote me and attack me. It truly would look ridiculous if I had unvoted so soon, and it has nothing to do with me being town or scum. It would just look ridiculous

Oh dear gawd, doesn't anyone know that you only need one VI in Mafia games, and you only need them for about half of Day One?

@Far_Cry - you admit you made a "mistake" that means you think you did something "wrong." In this game that equates to either anti-town or scummy - which means it's "right" for jimfinn to vote you for the wrongdoing, which means it's (once again) "wrong" that you rage voted him for it. This is one winding spiel of nothing that basically amounts to you saying 'yes, what I did was scummy, but I just made two scumtell mistakes one after another, let's move on please.'


@Andrigan - I want your read on singersinger and DH as regards the Thor case. Do you think both of them legitimately believe in the case they are presenting on me? Why/why not?

@redtail - Why do you think I couldn't get more votes on the Far_Cry wagon? Scum avoided hopping on for some reason, what are your thoughts as to why?

@jimfinn - In post 225 DH didn't notice that Jack had replaced out, I consider this potentially at odds with his persona of wanting to keep things exacting and not wanting town to act in a wild and wooly manner. What are your thoughts on this?

[Thor665]

Quite frankly Far_Cry, I'd *LOVE* to wagon you up right now. But I can't seem to get that one going for some reason. Besides, it's not exactly like you're the one lone beacon of scum in this game.

Who's your current top scumread and why?

[Thor665]

@Nexus - how am I being 'anti-town'? Quite frankly I think you're being more anti-town then me between your weak opinions and V/LAs.

@Far_Cry - I asked for your current top suspect (and reasoning), if you're planning to not answer the question let me know so I'll stop asking.

[Thor665]

@Nexus - whoah! If you think I'm being intentionally rude to you then I immediately apologize. All I'm doing is playing the game and trying to actually keep conversationa nd information flowing.

If you legitimately think I'm stifling scumhunting by trying to run up wagons on people and trying to get other people to vote then I think you're really missing what I'm doing. Also, please note your top suspects list and then note the people that I've been pressuring - if I'm really so anti-town and am ruining scumhunting then why are all of your top suspects also my top suspects? And do you actually believe I've done nothing to get the information that you suspect them for out into the open?

Sarcasm is not a scumtell (nor is it anti-town, unless it's all the person does)
I

strongly

disagree that my comments have been either nasty or have been because I'm acting like an a$$. (and if you think I'm rude and obnoxious you're in for a rough ride here at MS, because I'm one of the nice ones)

[Thor665]

I think you're calling me out on having to go v/la was unnecessary and a little harsh, yes.

I was making a point using it as an example. You've done it, and I didn't call you a bad person for doing it, I just noted that it didn't help town. I never said you were acting like an a$$ for example, which might be something someone could take offense at in my mind.

Quite frankly I'm indifferent on V/LAs (if I had an issue with that I would have had to be all over Jack). I do think my ding on you for not having enough of your own opinions is valid and appropriate, and you should seek to correct this.

I know sarcasm isn't a scumtell, but I find your attitude a little unhelpful, and thus anti-town. Your comment a couple of pages back about "I

must

be scum blah blah blah" was unnecessary.

The question I was responding to was unnecessary too.
Serious question;

Let's say a player asked you this;

Yes, he's

acting

anti-town, but that doesn't mean he's

scummy. I've made that mistake before.

Haha, did you just admit something?

He's taking stuff out of context, bolding it, and making a joke (or he's making one of the worst scum cases ever.) You might decide that because he's saying "Haha" at the front of the post that he's not being serious. Therefore you have roughly three options;

1. Ignore the post because it's not a helpful post.
2. React seriously to the post (how?)
3. Make a joke back.

When I was in that situation I made a joke and sarcastically claimed I *was* scum and he had caught me - he then called my sarcasm scummy and voted me for it - and now I have other players agreeing with him on this (???!)

What would you have done? Seriously - I want you to compose your pro-town response to that question and post it.

[Thor665]

Okay, so at that point why is my answer so bad? At worst I probably shouldn't have replied at all in your opinion, but why is my reply so bad for town?

[Thor665]

Also - is the question a good one for DH to have asked?

Why is the answer worse then the question?

[Thor665]

Frankly, I think if you're listing my anti-town attitude as an issue in the game that it's not distracting but is relevant to the game. Why do you want to bring up my answer as bad but not discuss the relevance of the question?

Unvote: singersinger
Vote: DemonHybrid

Something's going on here.

[Thor665]

And if it's all the same, Thor, if it's the general consensus that your play isn't helping town (and/or only distracting/frustrating town), I might just rethink what your alignment truly is...

...and do what?
Decide I'm scum and vote me twice?
Decide I'm town and...unvote me...for being anti-town?
Wooosh!

[Thor665]

Unvote: singersinger
Vote: DemonHybrid

Something's going on here.

Define something...

Okay...
But...
Ellipses always worry me...

Basically the breakdown is like this;

singersinger: Thor is anti-town - blaargh! I will not give reasons why - vote Thor!
DemonHybrid: OMG! U R so rite! Blaargh! I will add on this 'sarcasm tell' and vote Thor!
Nexus: True brilliance abounds in this thread, Thor is so anti-town it causes my gums to bleed!
Thor: WTF I am an innocent, gentle, and pure soul, how dare you defame me, what did I do that was anti-town?
Nexus: I totally agree with DH about your anti-towness in using sarcasm!
Thor: Buh? The question was silly, how would you have answered it?
Nexus: ...uh...I wouldn't have answered it at all, I still suspect you because the answer was scummy!
Thor: If the answer was scummy and the only "town answer" was not to answer then what does that say about the question?
Nexus: I refuse to discuss this angle of conversation anymore, I still suspect you but will apologize for things that I will not state what I'm apologizing for.
Thor: Vote DH.

singersinger's case was insane (but I'm almost believing she *is* insane when you consider all her other points.
DH sheeped that case.
Nexus sheeped the sheep.
No one has actually managed to explain what I did and how it was anti-town and all three of them list as their other top suspects/angles of attack the people *I've* called out for being scummy.
I find the sheeping of insanity to be more suspicious then the insanity at the moment, and the sheeping of the sheep gives me yet another player who DH's flip will provide some clarity to.

[Thor665]

@Sotty - I see some logic as to where you're coming with the joke scum claim issue - my major defense is that you look at the question I was answering and gauge my reaction thusly. It was a ridiculous comment, it deserved a ridiculous answer.

No read on DH? nhammen has claimed townish there, and I've claimed scummy for issues surrounding the logic you're casting me back down to neutral from town for - I would think you'd have thoughts.

[Thor665]

@DH Sotty is town so you'll stop suspecting her (you suspected her?)
Her analysis is assault on singersinger's logic and cases.
Your original case on me was sheep of singersinger's.
I'm still number two suspect after singersinger.

Something feels odd here to me, any clarifications on this befuddling mess of reads?

[Thor665]

I agree with ThAdmiral - pretty much first thing a miller should do when they post is declare. Can't think of an advantage for scum saporovirus to do so at this point in that way. (not sure why DH thinks miller is a smart role to fakeclaim either, millers tend to end up dead prior to lylo)

@ThAdmiral - here's the first game I ever played with Jack. I was too newbie to recognize fully how awesome his play was, and still I was a gushing fanboy to him by the end. (don't much see the point of this question - couldn't you just access his wiki?)

Why is it that by the time people are voting up the Far_Cry wagon I've got a different top suspect? My mafia timing must be way off.

Unvote: DemonHybrid

Barring a really amazing set of coincidences and changing opinions that wagon's just not going to happen for me today. I'll need to go back and look at both of the cases again and see where I'm feeling. Both singersinger and Far_Cry have been pretty scummy but I seem to recall getting a lot of newbie vibes off both of them and I think I was knocking them both down my suspect list because of that. Honestly I've also got to read back just to remind myself of my own case on FC - I can at least remember singersinger's there for insanity which is not an unreasonable Day 1 lynch reason.

@nhamman - are you against the singersinger lynch?

[Thor665]

saporovirus has managed to post 4 times since his reveal in order to...discuss his reveal more. Unimpressed.
Town is sort of slowly chugging in on the singersinger lynch and is doing so in sort of an odd way, not sure on read.
Looking back on singersinger and Far_Cry I find them both pretty skeevy and VI, as such I don't particularly have a preference which dies today, and plus I tend to find extensions anti-town.

@nhamman - but if you want to lynch singersinger for being most scummy why would you try to get an extension so people could lynch Far_Cry?


No whammy, no whammy...

Vote: singersinger

[Thor665]

jimfinn - lurking
Nexus - disappeared

Out of curiosity - how are you defining the difference?

It's late and I'll admit I've been too lazy to do much of a glance back over the thread now. Will try to do something functional either Wednesday or Thursday - I should have time then.

[Thor665]

When I meant "he" made a valid point, I meant jimfinn. He isn't trying to speedlynch, or else he'd be tunneling the Smurf out of you, FarCry.

But isn't jimfinn voting Far_Cry?

I actually consider DH town for the very reason ThAdmiral thinks he's scummy - that was sort of a weak vote shift, yes, but it came at a time when probably the Thor wagon could still have been considered viable.
I'm not so much down for the Far_Cry wagon, methinks that's more likely counter wagon attempt.

Vote: jimfinn

Would also be game for Nexus.

[Thor665]

@Nexus - well...I agree with your town read on Shotty

Oh wait, I'm being sarcastic again...

I appreciate the effort you put into that post - but a whole lot of what you said has so very little bearing on anything. The bulk of your commentary seems to really be a discussion of Day 1.

How about you weigh in with the action today? Opinion on the Far_Cry or jimfinn wagons?

[Thor665]

@sapporovirus - You seemed to indicate you'd be looking at jimfinn and even if you're not planning to vote him right now I'd like to hear your thoughts on him.

[Thor665]

Mod - prod nhamman please? Hasn't posted since Oct. 8th

[Thor665]

How is jimfinn obvious town? I'm not seeing it.

[Thor665]

How is it we can have a couple slow days in a row and then a sudden super explosion on the day I'm tired and worn out? Not fair!

I'm really underwhelmed by the Far_Cry case and am impressed that DH is willing to argue semantics with him to such a degree (which is all just a mush of nothingness) but is unwilling to dig back and find the odd occurences that predicated the vote in the first place. Bleh. At the very least he should stop acting like his case is so stellar as compared to the jimfinn one.

I seem to recall getting a pretty strong newbie read off of Nexus - though I will agree with the "why would singer defend town" angle, I will point out that a simple possible answer was the old 'defend town and get town points for being right' shtick.

Other then singersinger defending him is there anything to this case?

Actually - looking back at the iso I had forgotten he was a big proponent of the sarcasm case and also had that odd parking of his vote on Jack thing. Okay, I'm game for this one.

Unvote: jimfinn
Vote: Nexus

(somewhat) Needless to say, I'm okay with jimfinn not claiming now.

[Thor665]

Generally on any post that big I just skim over it and stop reading about half-way through and decide it's all useless blather anyway. So either method is fine with me

[Thor665]

1. newb scum
2. He's claimed miller, that generally is considered a null move though I consider it slightly a town tell.
3. Only consider two players lurkerish. Consider nhamman town who happens to not be posting often and redtail as having flaked and needing replacement which makes the lurking not strategic in nature and therefore a null tell.
4. I consider both DH and Nexus pretty tightly woven in because of their support for the sarcasm case. I don't see it as likely for the partner to be the first voice of support however, which suggests DH is town who actually legitimately believed that case (Uf da!).

[Thor665]

Less then Nexus, more then you. My first post of the day was about jimfinn or Nexus as the likely lynch - I'm currently weighing towards Nexus because a couple of players have stated town reads on jimfinn and nobody has dared to say so much about Nexus. Ergo, of my two top suspicions he's the top option.

If he needs to be replaced because he hasn't posted in a needed number of days then he flaked - that's pretty much the definition.

Are you advancing the Mastin tell, or are you just mentioning it for the sake of amusement?

[Thor665]

Thor: The sarcasm was a case of I find it rather anti town, because sarcasm doesn't convey well over the internet, and so when I read your posts, I take them at face value. If you've added sarcasm, I'm going to miss it, and it looks scummy sometimes. No more, no less.

Either my sarcasm is understood by you to be sarcasm - in which case the above is you trying to redefine what your case on me was.
or
My sarcasm isn't understood to be sarcasm - in which case you never would have found me scummy for "sarcasm" you would have found me scummy for "saying scummy things", which you never said.

My vote is happy and will move in at its current location.

[Thor665]

Took a while for that post redtail, but I liked it.

@jimfinn - have you ever looked up the definition of active lurk? WTFLOL? Were you seriously here and reading and that's the extent of your late contribution? What were you thinking when you did that? (i.e. how did you think it would help town?)

[Thor665]

Well, it appears to me that you have been here reading everything and not responding to anything until you were put on L-1.
I will further conclude that by claiming VT you are claiming to be affiliated with town and when when we kill all the scum.
Therefore I tend to presume that the things you do are because you think they will help catch scum/help town win.
How have your actions in the past 4 days been helping town in your opinion?

[Thor665]

RL days, stop ducking the question.

[Thor665]

@redtail - There isn't a great case on Far_Cry.

It occurs to me you haven't offered your thoughts on Nexus, have you? Care to toss them out while we're waiting for jimfinn to compose his false townie strategy post?

[Thor665]

@DH - could you point out the obvious FC/singersinger connection for those who've asked? Your case is still nowhere near as mighty as you seem to believe it is.

[Thor665]

A cop claiming no investigation due to laziness/accident?
That's a new one on me.
Still...

Unvote: Nexus

@saporovirus - Why are you shifting onto the Far_Cry wagon after a Nexus meltdown? I still don't understand that wagon and no one has bothered to even try to explain it really - they just say "because of connections to singersinger" so I'm not sure if they're idiots or I am. I'm much more of a mind to hammer jimfinn then try to run up Far_Cry.

[Thor665]

So, and correct me where I'm wrong here;

jimfinn is ALWAYS lynched early for bad play.
He is statistically town more often then scum - as is every player on the board.
You want to lynch Far_Cry for bad play.

Did I miss something here?

[Thor665]

Why would you rather put the hammer on jimfinn, though? I mean, he at least has actually stuck his neck out and voted for people, for reasons other than that they are after him. Far_Cry posts long, wishy-washy analyses that mirror what other people have been saying, and really only makes a strong stand against jimfinn, who is such an easy lynch to sell. It just seems to me like he is lying low after stumbling several times yesterday, and I feel like a town player would dust himself off and at least try to genuinely participate.

So your answer is that you think Far_Cry has had worse play then jimfinn?

I want to lynch jimfinn because I tend to suspect FC was a counter wagon to singersinger and I believe jimfinn's lurking has been strategic in nature which I don't think can be believed of FC's lurking.

[Thor665]

Why aren't you hammering him, Thor?

Because I'm not done with the day yet and there's still some reactions worth seeing.

[Thor665]

I'm gonna have to read Far Cry again. I'm getting convinced now.

Convinced of what? I'm with redtail on this, I don't think there's been anything made that even sort of resembles a case on Far_Cry other then noting basic weak play - what do you think the case is?

[Thor665]

@saporo - I was all for wagoning him early Day 1, the logic of why I wanted him lynched then doesn't hold up as well for a Day 2 lynch. Quite frankly, at early Day 1 I was up for wagoning darn near anybody but people wouldn't vote.

[Thor665]

I want DH to explain the Far_Cry connection to singersinger

specifically

or link me to the post where he already did so.

After that I'll probably be game to lynch jimfinn.

[Thor665]

I'm close to changing my read on DH yet again if he can't produce this super obvious FCscum case he's been harping on. Must be the longest midterm test ever.

[Thor665]

@jimfinn - *strategically* not posting. The accusation is active lurking, not lurking.

Also, if you're town and you feel FC has been dodging stuff, why haven't you been pressuring him every day?

[Thor665]

Apologies, allowed a different game to distract me.

I actually pretty much agree with Far_Cry as regards DH's case. The buddying/coaching "tells" are pretty laughable. I see some minor connections, but nothing that screams "brilliance" and nothing that seems more/less connected then jimfinn, so I don't get why he thinks it's stronger.

Vote: jimfinn

[Thor665]

Either we don't have a doctor or we have a stupid one.

Obvious obvious statement is obvious

The choice to kill shotty was an interesting one, considering that he was one of the most suspicious.

By shotty do you mean Nexus?
If you mean Nexus then how was he most suspicious as an uncounterclaimed cop?
If you mean shotty then...???

I'm obvscum now. So go ahead and vote for me, see what happens.

Is this some sort of really awkward reverse psychology thing? You're on my list now for this if nothing else (I'll make up the nothing else if/when I vote you later today )

I actually had a big feeling that this is what you were going to do this day.

This comment screams to have itself explained more. Where you already suspicious of ThAdmiral yesterday and I missed it? Why is this action of his so worthy of a vote when you're so certain of Far_Cry?

[Thor665]

Does everyone agree that my reasoning for not suspecting jimfinn is valid?

Then? Maybe.
Now? Looking murkier.

Your town read on jimfinn hinged on a scum read of Far_Cry, if the read is so good it should clear you today I'm not following how you're now voting ThAdmiral instead - how has he leapt above a scum read that was so scummy as to provide you a town read?

@shotty - I've *got* to hear a case on ThAdmiral before you go rocketing off on this track, he's one of my two strong town reads and the other was the slot you replaced into, so having you gunning at him out of the gate is making my tiny brain melt in my head. Don't make me have to go policy again

[Thor665]

=====================================
Wikirage post

@Far_Cry - DH's vote may or may not have been scummy. It wasn't OMGUS either way - dear gawd I reuse to sit here and read a OMGUS debate between the two of you so let's just not go there.
@DH - as above, feel free to respond to the rest of FC's post, but zip it on the OMGUS thing unless some other player wades in thinking that's a valid tell on you. Trust me, nobody cares or is impressed either way.
=====================================

Okay.

@DH - still not sure I quite follow your shift from Far_Cry to thAdmiral. You seemed really focused on Far_Cry as scum, used it to clear a player yesterday, and even came into today calling scum on FC yet again - however one "opportunistic" argument from Admiral and he supercedes FC in your mind? What's up with that?

@Admiral - if DH is scum why would he want to float off of the FC obv. mislynch of ease wagon to try to toss up a case on you? I don't think you looked that lynchable, thoughts?

EBWOP - arrgggh, my rage came too late!

[Thor665]

@shotty - Jack not posting often is null, because he had to replace out - it wasn't strategic, it was real life. I'll agree Admiral doesn't post droves, I disagree about him not posting content. Is that really the extent of the case? (besides the obligatory gut)

What is your take on DH and the shift from Far_Cry to Admiral?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

Shotty, why do you do this?

Do your reads honestly make sense to you, because I'm already thinking it might be wise to zone you out as well, and that's dangerous as hell.

I find it opportunistic that Admiral is attacking me because I was the only one originally against jimfinn's lynch. That's all there is to it.

I agree with this, Admiral was my top suspect and so far today he hasn't helped himself any

You're using DH's "bussing/distancing" case on ThAdmiral as your case against Admiral while also calling DH scum for bussing/distancing his buddy? Oh dear gawd sir!
If you think DH made a good case on ThAdmiral why do you think it's also a scum case?

[Thor665]

I'm having a hard time understanding DH's shift to ThAdmiral from either a scum or town perspective. Neither is making much sense to me and now my head hurts.

@sapo - accusing DH of being all over Day 1, and then accusing him of tunneling Day 2 while also dismissing his claims of being 'confident' on Day 2 because he was all over the place on Day 1...blargh, that's terrible. Tunnel and confident Day 2 has very little to do with being uncertain Day 1 and they don't really cancel each other out.

What was your read on nhamman? (you don't need to tell me you read on shotty unless you really want to, but I want the nhamman slot read).

[Thor665]

Thor, was that meant for me?

No, sappo.
But, really, zero read on nhamman? Are there any other players you have zero read on?

[Thor665]

The thing is, since we know singer is scum, it wouldn't make much sense for scum-DH to jump onto the wagon like this. Would a mafia, right after another mafia member made a case and tried to start a wagon, instantly jump onto said wagon in response? It seems unlikely. I don't think DH is that stupid.

That's actually exactly the reason I stopped pushing DHscum on Day 2 and I agree with the logic. (though on Day 1 I was convinced no scum would make such a terrible case and DH was the follower scum of VI town )

I actually get where DH is coming from with his last question to ThAdmiral. That's actually worth hearing an answer to. That said...

@DH - in your Orson Wells post you basically say the scum team involves either Admiral or Far_Cry - you still haven't clearly answered as to why you'd want Admiral to be the first to go to my mind. Wasn't Far_Cry the scum that cleared jimfinn? Other then being "opportunistic" and other actions he's done this Day Phase do you actually think he's looked scummy in any way shape or form the other days? I think my big issue with your case is I've had a town read on the guy and you've built up an explosion case that is based entirely on play in the most recent phase.

The best case I could make on ThAdmiral = scum would be his pressure on Far_Cry Day 1 as an opposed wagon to singersinger, and yet you're highly convinced of Far_Cry's scumminess so I don't get how you think it's an either or. You're making a foible somewhere in your thinking, and I think it's clouding your judgment.

[Thor665]

@DH - he's not saying the argument (case) is retarded he's saying the argument (debate of it) is retarded. Both are viable beliefs that can coexist.

That said, there is an angle here I now find disturbing.

@Admiral - the way you phrased your desire to end the argument now looks weird to me. By the sheer fact of you backing off in the way you did tends to suggest that you believe that DH legitimately believes his Far_Cry standpoint. If he really believes it then how is it scummy?

[Thor665]

As to the second bit: it's more that I believe he's very stubborn

Why do you think scum would be "stubborn" about having a town read?
Why wouldn't you be saying scum is "lying" about having a town read?

[Thor665]

Uf da!

Vote: ThAdmiral

DH is basically hitting it on the head as to what angle I'm coming from. Your language seems to indicate a belief that DH is town minded - which would suggest you shouldn't be advocating him to lynch, which means you're doing so under a false premise. Scum wouldn't be being 'stubborn' about a town read on a townie. Also, I can't see any scum advantage for DH to be playing the game like he is, and suspect you'd be a good enough player to see that as well.

[Thor665]

EBWOP: Where the Smurf is redtail? He is the only one not participating in the discussion. Lurking much?

Pot, meet kettle.

Yo, Far_Cry, since this post I'm quoting all you've done is demand for Admiral to claim. In the post prior to the one I'm quoting you actually still seemed to be riding the 'don't trust DH' wagon. Where are you now? How do you feel about DH? How do you feel about Admiral? What are your thoughts on the current wagon of him?

@Admiral - I agree with the other players, I don't see much of a reason to delay claiming for this current tack. Quite frankly, I think delaying a claim is pretty durn scumtastic. As the adage (roughly) goes - summarizing a role PM takes seconds, crafting a good fake claim takes a lifetime.

[Thor665]

Thor, oh Thor. Questions are detrimental to reason. Actually, no, I'm too lazy.

IMMA POST ALL CAPS FOR A SECOND TO PROPERLY CLARIFY HOW ANGRY I AM. PICK *ONE* OF THE BELOW OPTIONS!

Request replacement from the mod - NOW!
Start playing the game.

[Thor665]

How can you see saporo as less town than anyone else

Whoah.

Unvote: ThAdmiral

Really quick - where did he say this? I checked his iso because that would be a crazy awesome catch and as far as I can tell he's said the exact opposite of this repeatedly.

[Thor665]

The way I'm reading that he's saying

if

sappo is scum he's already won (I won't begin to wonder how he figures that, as we should have at least one more lynch chance with a three scum starting team).
He then says he can't explain his read on Far_Cry (the implication being he can explain his read on all the other people (like sapo) he's clearing.
I think he may have even been the first person to call sapo's miller claim town.
He opened the game day today saying sapo was on his "will not lynch" list.

How are you reading the above to make it seem like he's calling sapo a very weak town read?

[Thor665]

Vote: ThAdmiral

(L-1 again)

@DH - he grouped him in as likely town not scum. That said, this looks like just more of your pedantic peccadilloes and not an actual misrep attempt and I can see where the logic is coming from by seperating out Far_Cry like he did, so meh. My other reads hold solid. Admiral's long delay to claim and some of what was said during that time is pretty telling, and I still stick with my initial tell on him as well.

[Thor665]

What does that even mean?

If you're too lazy to play the game, replace out.
Otherwise give your current thoughts on the Admiral wagon and how you went from suspecting DH to supporting the wagon he was championing.

[Thor665]

@DH - is there logic for shotty-town in your mind outside of him going against meta and not suspecting you? I'm still trying to iron down my read there and the extent of my town read for the slot is from the previous slot holder so I wouldn't mind hearing a few more thoughts for me to mull over.

As regards Admiral vs. FC I really think it breaks down like this.

1. The case on Admiral is some odd stances paired with the mental twist as regards his interactions with you.
2. The case on Far_Cry is that he is being opportunistic about his suspicions on you/Admiral.

I find both pretty scummy.
I find an unwillingness to claim right away when the claim was VT to be much scummier then being a bad player who refuses to explain his reads.

[Thor665]

Vote: No Lynch

Frankly I think we are at mylo, and my reads are somewhere between bread pudding and gelatin for how solid I feel they are.
If for some reason we're not in mylo (because of only having one scum?) then we still functionally have one 'no lynch' day available to us, and I'm as content taking it now as tomorrow.

@DH - just out of curiosity, what makes you so sure it's a 2 scum setup as opposed to 3? With 11 players in the game a 3 man scum team would achieve victory after 3 mislynches - which is the general norm for mini balance. A 2 scum team would need 4 mislynches - which would be unbalanced in favor of town unless scum had potent roles (we've already seen 1 goon flip) or unless there was a 3rd party (of which I've seen little evidence unless it's a odd 3rd party role).

[Thor665]

Unvote

Blargh - no lynch not good here. Thor am dumb.

[Thor665]

To clarify the above in human language - the talk of mylo immediately put me into thoughts of no lynching. But if we have two scum we cannot afford to no lynch today as that's a win for them.
So we're either in lylo or are in a regular game day. We're not in mylo at all.

[Thor665]

This may be MyLo, though I doubt it.

What setup do you think we're in if you think it is mylo?

[Thor665]

@Shotty - considering the play from Day 1, what makes you think Far_Cry/whoever replaces in is really the lynch for today? Wasn't singersinger trying to get him lynched?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

I want to hear more from FarCry's replacement before commenting on that spot.

You really don't have a read on Far_Cry currently?

In terms of connection to Singer, DH clearly has the most obvious connection. In fact, the connection is so blindingly obvious that I'm inclined not to believe it.

Yes.

The reason I'm reemphasizing this is that, if I operate under the above assumption, then the other scum

did

bus Singer, at least to some degree. I'm tempted to say that "this person was instrumental to the case against singer" is no longer an acceptable defense (yes, that applies to me as well). The question is, where does this leave us?

You do realize that everyone not involved in lynching singersinger is already dead. So...yes.

I'm leaning redtail/shotty

Redtail has been flying much more under the radar then I expect from him, and though I've had a general pro town feel from him It's starting to feel that that read is more from lack of anti-town energy then real existence of pro-town energy. Even his quote above that I'm agreeing with - that's the second time he's said it. Brilliant and new insight right there.

Shotty is a little harder to get a feel on. I actually liked nhamman's play for the most part but in looking back he does have some odd interactions with singersinger early on - the oddest being his sort of weird softsell of her case right at the end where he's asking if we're sure we want to lynch her and if we should ask for a deadline extension. Bad vibes there. After that he pretty much went under the radar as he flaked out and shotty is...well...shotty, and I've yet to discover a way to meta that ridiculous personality.

DH and FC are town.

[Thor665]

Vote: drmyshottyizsik

If it's a two man and doesn't include him we're already doomed, and I think I dislike nhamman's end of Day 1 paired with shotty's "let's start conversation by voting town" more then I dislike redtail's soft town vibe.

[Thor665]

Do you expect FC's replacement to change the read?

What are your shotty thoughts?

[Thor665]

What's so 'wow' about it? (unless you mean 'wow, that's an awesome vote that pegged scum' - but I'm guessing you mean 'wow, that's dumb/odd')

Is it more or less dumb/odd then your opening vote on FC today?

[Thor665]

My vote's harmless too - so we're all jake.

[Thor665]

@DH and Shotty - redtail case? i really am hoping you guys have more then I sort of vaguely mumbled out.

@DH - I do tend to put a lot of weight into the timing of FC's replace out as evidence he's town. Also, singersinger's rantings on him Day 1 didn't look like a bus to me, and there was never really a case on him Day 2 and his actions there looked pretty town in his opposition to the Nexus wagon (he never defended Nexus, never called the case bad, he just sort of stubbornly clung to jimfinn - that's town with a gut read in my eyes).

[Thor665]

Knowing the nutshell is functional enough for me, as the nutshell is basically my shell (if you have any brilliant scum slips to show that might excite me, but a wall post showing how he's not been very active/opinionated will bore me, so please don't do that)

Is there any particular reason you think his passive play is worse then nhammen/shotty's actions? The two actions there that really twig me are, as mentioned, shotty's FC vote today and nhammen's 'we need to decide if we're really going to lynch singersinger, and if not we need to ask for an extension' commentary at the end of Day 1. What is your take on those two points?

[Thor665]

Not to mention that I think absolutely no reaction to being voted to L-1 and a reminder to claim doesn't seem genuine....[snip]...someone else would have asked a little more about the pressure on them, and I think you're silently sweating it.

But isn't the reverse of this when people claim scum is 'flailing'? People react differently to pressure.
Also, let's be honest, if you're going off my case on him the case is "he sorta seems townish but has been flying under the radar" and that's not the most brilliant case in the world.
Are we really close enough to deadline where I should hammer without hearing from a slot both you and I think is town?

I'm aware that everybody knows what I'm saying. I'm collecting it in one place. I'm saying this is why I think FC

is the last scum.

I admit that it's not the strongest case I've ever seen, but it's better than the cases I have/would construct on you, thor, or shotty. That's why my vote rests there.

Sooooo......

...do you think it's not LyLo yet? Or is this a slip?

I'd actually like this responded to.

@Shotty - how well does DH's case on redtail reflect your case on redtail?

[Thor665]

Mmmm.

In any case I want to hear shotty's "case" first. His vote there is functionally identical to the way he voted "obv. town, not lynch today Far_Cry" and I don't trust him for a spit. His play today has been pretty damn elusive and I feel zero town energy there.

[Thor665]

@DH - When we are done with this game I seriously want to have a discussion with you about whether sarcasm is or is not anti-town.
PoE is a reasonable place to be though.
I disagree about shotty taking risks, I personally think he's (as usual) riding his meta to get away with whatever he pleases. I'll accept that he does that when town but...he does that when scum too. I still think the FC opening vote today is pretty darn skeevy. Let's just let me wait and see what he says to my redtail case request.

[Thor665]

Request prod - drmyshottyizlurking

[Thor665]

Prod me without double prodding shotty and I will be sad.

[Thor665]

I missed that too.

So...Canasta while we wait?

[Thor665]

@Shotty - All I want is for you to explain your case on redtail - that really doesn't seem like it should be hard. I don't even need quote walls, just give us the bullet points.

@DH - Me am happy with vote right now, happy x2.

[Thor665]

It'd take me probably 3 days or so to read up on a 30 page game just since I do need to take breaks in order to keep up clear reading. So I suspect he's still working on it.

Do you maybe have opinions you want to bandy about with redtail? What do you think of his response to shotty - town/scum/null response to the case?

I personally find shotty's case to be 'gut' and I actually don't believe there is 'more'. His case is gut, your case is 'redtail has been noncommittal' and my case is pointing at a couple specific actions from shotty/nahammen and calling them scummy. There's a reason we're at a roadblock in our cases, I feel I've found scum cases and am focused on them, and the redtail case lacks them. Meanwhile you're basically on a gut case paired with a scum claiming gut and acting like I'm insane for voting him all while not responding to my issues with him.

Also, I am willing to believe shotty is sick with a terrible flu that happened to hit him immediately after his V/LA expired (and that seems a pretty solid leap to make for the man already) - but if he's so sick that it's painful to present a case, I am bewildered that he managed to show up and tell us how sick he was. He's clearly reading, and he's clearly physically capable of posting. I think he's trying to sandbag to either get me to get frustrated and go in on a redtail lynch or he's hoping Equi will sweep in and make it happen. The dude is scum and he's avoiding posting to leave us no ability to read him at lylo.

[Thor665]

Thor, shotty's been nothing but town this game.

It's rather absurd that you'd suggest he'd fake an illness to get on our good side.

I don't think he's faking the illness and said as much, I think he's playing up the illness. Look at his last post - it's practically like he's trying to type in *cough* and 'Uggggh' into his post. He bothers to type in twice about how sick he is and includes suggestions that his case is much bigger all while claiming that due to the horrible sickness he can't comment more on it.

@Equinox - if you're still trying to catch up you could probably expedite matters by focusing your read on redtail and shotty, that's the discussion of the day.

@DH - I'm going to give till Friday for shotty to recover from bubonic death plague and/or Equinox to catch up and offer insight. If at that point we're still sitting around with just you and I trading brilliant observations about our bellybuttons I'll go ahead and hammer redtail.

[Thor665]

Actually it's his second to last post - his last post pretty much proves how he's lurking in the thread and reading while apparently being too sick to type in a case but not sick enough to field a compliment.

[Thor665]

I was trying to play towards you. Now I'll be hoping for Equinox.

[Thor665]

@Equinox - are we expecting contributions prior to Friday of this week? Deadline is Thursday of next week and though I'd rather have your input then not, I'm not sure my stubbornness extends to sitting around for another 8 days staring at DH as we each go "see how scummy that other guy is? Change your vote!"

[Thor665]

@DH - see how scummy that other guy is? Change your vote!

[Thor665]

Curses, thy logic is infallible!

[Thor665]

I'm willing to wait for Sunday morning. (especially considering it's currently Saturday evening and I work most of Sunday so...)

[Thor665]

@DH - I put out a deadline there (Friday) and redtail didn't seem particularly spooked. If you're banking on single scum then his team was cooked and I would have expected a reaction.
Had zero reaction from Shotty - not even an "about time you did" post.

Thoughts?

[Thor665]

Spooked

Something. I don't think I'd bank on doing nothing as the way to save myself at that point, and I'd probably feel doomed - therefore I'd try something to try to at least convince Thor not to hammer me. Heck, at the very least I'd have voted Shotty at this stage to try and make it competitive. Instead he does nothing.

[Thor665]

Why is everything about shotty with you?

...because I think he's scum? Why is everything about redtail with you? This question is silly.

Oh, and I know what spooked means. I meant, "What do you mean, spooked?" as in "Why would red be spooked about this situation and your deadline announcement?"

Here's the theoretical setup;

redtail - I am evil scumm0rz and last of mah clan! Must attain another mislynch!
DH & Shotty - OMG! U R evil scumm0rz! Vote, vote, vote!
redtail - oh noes!!!
Thor - duuuuur, Me am think shotty iz scum, yeppers! Vote, vote, vote!
redtail - hurray for stupid town!
Equinox - OMG eyes bleed! So long...so...long...will not post till right at deadline!
shotty - agggh, I have died! Will not post till resurrection!
DH - OMG u all suxx0rs! Thor, vote redtail scumz!
Thor - duuuuuur, okie-dokie, I promise to vote him this Friday!
redtail - oh noes, I am about to be hammered! What should I do to change the course? ....I know! I'll do absolutely nothing and stay silent which assures me of death and losing the game. Sure, I could do *something* during this period since, worst case, I'll be hammered and lose the game so I might as well try any sort of gambit whatsoever but....naaaaah.

If I was in his position, I'd stick with my guns and try not to make things worse. Equinox has yet to decide, yet you've committed to the fact that he's town based on the fact that he hasn't said anything with this dilemma on the table.

There's sticking and then there's sticking. Scum wouldn't care so much who they get as a mislynch - redtail went after Far_Cry when *BOTH YOU AND I HAD CALLED FAR_CRY PROB TOWN* What sort of scum plan is that?
Also, he can't have waited till I'd committed to not lynch him because he didn't know that was happening at the time.
Equinox at least seems to understand where I'm coming from. Even if you don't agree with me I'd like you to at least admit that you understand the tells I'm pointing out because I think you're starting to tunnel with how sternly you're dismissing them. I'm a bit of a twit, but this is a reasonable set of tells I'm presenting over here and is *certainly* at least as strong as the current redtail case.

[Thor665]

You don't get the point. There is a debate between lynching shotty and lynching redtail today that is still going on.

I'm not sure if I'm being dense or you are.
To be succinct;

The point I'm trying to make is that for a period of a few days it looked like the "back and forth" was over and that I would hammer redtail.
I think it's odd that he did nothing during that time since the vote would not have gone his way so any rocking could not have made it worse.

Actually, I never called FC "probably town" until post #714, a whole page after redtail did his case and vote.

Good point, I'd actually forgotten our discussion about it.

Looking back he did do his vote after I'd made clear my own read on FC though and after shotty had (sorta awkwardly) done the same. So the last scum is going to try and lynch someone who has two players saying they wouldn't lynch him and/or that he is town?

[Thor665]

But knowing that the decision is still on the table with Equinox still needing to decide, why say anything that they might regret? I could say the same thing about shotty, too.

This is where we're disagreeing.

See, I don't believe he would still think the question was on the table.
You were voting him.
Shotty was voting him.
Equinox said he wouldn't be posting till much later.
I said I'd hammer on the upcoming Friday.

I feel that redtail should have felt like he was in a closing trap and reacted.
I think it makes sense for shotty to do nothing because the lynch he wanted was going through - so why do anything? (though I'll agree that's [sadly] a mindset town or scum could have).

[Thor665]

I'm saying shotty's action potentially has equal motivation.

I don't think redtail's action does at all nor have I indicated that in the least.

Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand me?

[Thor665]

redtail and shotty are in the same boat. Same situation. Everything that applies to redtail applies to shotty and vice versa,

the amount of votes do not matter

.

I really disagree with that.
I think you're still failing to grok the hammer aspect of my argument - they were not the same because somebody was being threatened to be hammered and somebody was not. That's a big difference.

@shotty - could you now supply the "more" you said you could provide on the redtail case?

[Thor665]

Color me confused and intrigued.

Okay, I'm game - VT here.

[Thor665]

@Equinox - is it that you now find shotty scummy, or are you honestly voting someone you think is town because it will help you catch scum tomorrow? You don't need to explain the plan if you think it will help scum, but arguably having 2 lynchs from your pool of suspects would be preferable to one lynch and one scum kill, yes?

[Thor665]

You've never seen a scum say they're willing to die to help town?

[Thor665]

Shotty - if you are town then at least let redtail or DH have to change their vote or debate Equi or I into changing ours.

If you're scum, please proceed - I could do with a slightly lighter game queue over the holiday weekend and you've lost anyway.

Also, I'm still waiting for that "more" on redtail, if you need something to do.

@DH - I'm guessing Sotty is also too bad of a player to use the 'I'mma self hammer' gambit as well? I don't mind you looking at anti-town actions/statements and not buying them as scummy, but using them as towntells is terribad.

[Thor665]

Sotty7 definitely would, she's a cold-hearted b**ch, so let's discuss Shotty as my read there is less certain.

Also, seriously? You need me to come back and post again to clarify that? What the hell man?

[Thor665]

So...the case is I'm scum because saporovirus isn't here to be scum instead? I hate you guys.

[Thor665]

Well, to be fair you didn't say your case other then PoE or so, so allow me to at least mock shotty's bad case on me in the meantime.

I can still choose to hate you for buying into it though.

Do you have a case you care to present as such? Hopefully one without sarcasm as a scumtell?

[Thor665]

Plus, I want redtail to choose who dies today. This is critical.

You're running me up so that redtail can choose the lynch?

I do hate you.

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure I'm watching a train wreck, I'm just not sure who is on the tracks yet.

[Thor665]

@Equinox - DH's plan makes sense from a townDH perspective insomuch as he's looking to narrow down the Thor/redtail field considering his inane town read on Shotty.

[Thor665]

I really wanted reactions to my "L-1"

We'll get the same reaction out of him even if he knows he's been lynched. If he's town, he'll say so, and the rest of us can scramble to announce our top suspect before we get shot.

Get to scrambling then, you mangy curs.

Worst lynch ever.

[Thor665]

Oh, needless to say, I encourage lynching shotty tomorrow. It's him or redtail and the redtail case is silly.

[Thor665]

*sigh*

At least I learned some good lessons this game.

I still think it's shotty.

[Thor665]

You two are just super nervous town.

[Thor665]

All I really learned was that I should have just hammered redtail when I had the chance and claimed it was 'narrowing of suspects'. Instead I had to play calm town and want to let Equi catch up and that allowed that really random let's lynch Thor plan to somehow form up on me. Terrible play on my part.

Apologies to singersinger for not managing the scum win.

Apologies to town for being scum, I hate having to lie that much.

[Thor665]

@DH - Thanks, I actually rather liked your redtail pick plan in the grand scope of town - it was just bad for me which was why I was playing a bit dumb/annoyed with it.

@Equi - Yeah, but that's the point. I read an article about playing scum better and really the smart play for me was to take the hammer that I wouldn't have been blamed much for. If I'd done that I could have killed...someone and been in lylo, instead I went the smart town play and that opened up more conversation and allowed town to actually talk itself into a situation I was in danger. I probably should have tried to accelerate into lylo - the only problem was I was trying to get redtail into lylo with me since he had given such a null read of himself for everyone to work with.

Sometimes scum spare me for being really stupid too, but I prefer the kitten version But you're right, I do end up dead Day 1-2 an awful lot when town, my beard must scare them.

[Thor665]

@Shotty - MVPs don't come from losing teams? You live in a world that is different then most sports I know. That said, though I appreciate the lauds I certainly would rather have everyone cursing me for winning then get a nice 'atta boy for effort. Also, to be honest, if you did 'catch me' then I think it was more by luck since towards the end you pretty much voted everyone but yourself at least once.

@Nexus - man, but you would have checked me, so your instincts were apparently spot on. I'm stoked you managed to whiff that (though I was sad you were the cop as you would have been an easy mislynch to arrange)

@Equinox - if you could see the scum QT I'm not sure you'd be that excited at my methods, I mostly sort of random guessed it out of fear and confusion.

Let's see;

First, I probably would have cursed up a blue streak that you had replaced in since you're a more logical player than Far_Cry.

Looking it over, no matter which of shotty/redtail had been lynched I think I would have actually NKed the other one and left the endgame as DH, you, and myself. The reasoning being we all had town reads on each other so it would have been a nice easy playing field for distrust which would have weakened the town. Shotty was too much of a wildcard to want in lylo, and also VIs tend to be useful tools of deduction for town to use. Redtail can also be a pretty logical player (when he posts) and he had actually had decent instincts through most of the game plus I wouldn't have really wanted someone I defended that much joining me in lylo.

There's a chance that if redtail had been lynch I might have NKed you for a DH, shotty, Thor endgame on the hopes that I could argue that I was the obvious mislynch and that one of them was the true suspect - each of them had shown just enough uncertainty that I think I could have fanned that into a mislynch fire. The danger there was that someone (probably shotty) would have just voted me right off, and then when I was obligated to vote him back after a no hammer from DH I would have been counting on managing to convince DH without having shotty also being suspicious of DH which would have been difficult.

[Thor665]

Dude, no apologies necessary. I can't believe you're not furious at me for playing such a shotty D1.

You didn't leave me in a great position, but it wasn't totally terrible (other then needing 5 mislynches )
But if I got angry at the game it wouldn't be a game worth playing, I have fun and you did leave me with an interesting challenge and, honestly, I was pretty sure I was going to win it there towards the end - just didn't quite have everything work out. So, i had fun and at that point there's no need to be angry. Don't sweat it.

[Thor665]

That was an awkward positional shift to have to make, though I thought I did a decent job justifying it. Still, if town decides they want to lynch an obvious town who is also logical you better believe I'm going to try and get in on that action. I'm pretty sure i held a party for myself in the QT when that happened.

Really, if I had to be angry at anything this game I think it was sapo and Nexus both being role confirmed and me having to waste NKs on them. Both of them were mislynches begging to happen and I was robbed of them and had to try to get to endgame with a stronger town then I preferred.

[Thor665]

Partial scum revenge - I was miffed at how my lynch happened.
Also, I don't drop character till the mod confirms stuff - if something was off in the votes t'would have been uber Thor win...well, until I didn't die from NK.

Scum QT

That thing is probably awkwardly too long considering how many posts are from singersinger.

[Thor665]

No, should I?

I don't hate you at all.
I find your playstyle far less impressive then you do - but that's a far cry from hate.

[Thor665]

This should have been a clue that you were scum. This was you trying to make it seem like my vote for singer was not something I really wanted to do. And you hammered before giving me a chance to answer. I should have figured it out.

Not only that, I hammered so then when singer flipped scum you could look worse. Awesome is me I probably should have let that slide, really, but I was eager for any mud I could toss on you - I needed less townish looking players stat by that stage of the game.

@sapo - sorry. If it makes you feel better you did play your role properly, which obligated me to kill you, which hurt the scumteam, making you a pro-town player who helped for the win. I just wanted a player who *already* looked pro-town to have the role that made him pro-town so I could have maximized my kills. Alas, not to be.