Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[jimfinn]

I always RVS someone who has a capital letter that does not start a word in their name, if one such player exists.

[DemonHybrid]

VOTE: DemonHybrid most people who have played with me before know why

...and I have to ask the same question too

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Didn't see the page turn.

You're still in RVS. Read the thread, enough has been going on.

[jimfinn]

Yeah, not really. Nexus's comments sound joking to me, but the case against Nexus seems to be with misguided protown intentions, not deliberate misrep. Still RVS in my book.

[Far_Cry]

Yeah, not really. Nexus's comments sound joking to me, but the case against Nexus seems to be with misguided protown intentions, not deliberate misrep. Still RVS in my book.

Yes and no. Not everybody has contributed yet, so you can still say we are in RVS. Plus, we don't have any really serious cases against anyone. But the case against Nexus is one to look. I refrain from further comment until we get more people to post.

[Thor665]

@Far_Cry - why are you posting so much in order to say that you're not saying anything?
Seriously - thus far you've commented that redtail is taking things a touch too seriously (???)
You also commented how we shouldn't get out of the RVS just yet (because, yknow, RVS is *so* pure and valuable if people aren't expressing opinions and votes).
Finally you've just kept saying how we need more people to weigh in all while not weighing in on anyone or putting out a single vote (despite believing RVS is worthwhile)

Unvote: Nexus
Vote: Far_Cry

Dissonance much?

@jimfinn - It is incredibly funny and amusing that you have continued your capital letter meta. I had a great and joyous belly laugh. We can now move on? Excellent.
What is your read on my town tell on Devon? Do you agree, disagree, and why is this?

[Far_Cry]

@Far_Cry - why are you posting so much in order to say that you're not saying anything?
Seriously - thus far you've commented that redtail is taking things a touch too seriously (???)
You also commented how we shouldn't get out of the RVS just yet (because, yknow, RVS is *so* pure and valuable if people aren't expressing opinions and votes).
Finally you've just kept saying how we need more people to weigh in all while not weighing in on anyone or putting out a single vote (despite believing RVS is worthwhile)

Unvote: Nexus
Vote: Far_Cry

Dissonance much?

@jimfinn - It is incredibly funny and amusing that you have continued your capital letter meta. I had a great and joyous belly laugh. We can now move on? Excellent.
What is your read on my town tell on Devon? Do you agree, disagree, and why is this?

WTF are you talking about?! Does 4 posts sound like "a lot" to you?

And I'm asking people to talk more. More general conversation.

Also, how can I weigh in on anybody at the moment? What is there to get a read on? That's why I ask for more conversation.

Finally, please clearly explain to me your thoughts on RVS. What does it mean to you?

[Thor665]

WTF are you talking about?! Does 4 posts sound like "a lot" to you?

A lot can be accomplished in 4 posts, or nothing can be accomplished in them. I will say your 4 posts of nothing have indeed accomplished something - a vote, from me, with love.

And I'm asking people to talk more. More general conversation.

Also, how can I weigh in on anybody at the moment? What is there to get a read on? That's why I ask for more conversation.

But, oh man, how can those people offer conversation if you won't talk more with general conversation? Probably they'll post next telling you that you need to talk more so they can then weigh in on stuff once you talk.

Again. Dissonance.

Finally, please clearly explain to me your thoughts on RVS. What does it mean to you?

It is an exciting period of the game where people both claim it's important and shouldn't/can't be skipped because of valuable scumtells that happen in it...
...and then decry me for taking things "too seriously" because it's "just RVS".

[nhammen]

That you actually took my joke as an attack of some sort and are attempting to rally a defense makes it look like you have something to hide.

Not seeing this defense rallying myself.

Cool that you quickly jump wagons, though. Of course, it doesn't really matter at this early stage. Perhaps I'll wait for the others before doing anything else.

Cool that you comment on Thor's wagon jumping, but not DemonHybrid's double wagon jumping. Why was Thor's jump from singer to you worth more comment than Demon's jump from Devon to singer to you?

Go read Devon again. He openly admits that his vote is for "revenge" reasons when he votes DH. This is while an active bandwagoning is going on. Newbie scum would probably have commented on the bandwagon - either hopping on it, trying to derail it for town points, or trying to start up an actual counter to protect a buddy. Instead Devon is focused on making a joke with his friend, and making a joke using language that has negative connotations. Methinks the newb would not have acted this way if having the dastardly role of scum. Therefore; likely to be town.

Maybe a very weak town tell. Determining what action newbs will take is always a risky gambit.

@Far_Cry - why are you posting so much in order to say that you're not saying anything?
Seriously - thus far you've commented that redtail is taking things a touch too seriously (???)
You also commented how we shouldn't get out of the RVS just yet (because, yknow, RVS is *so* pure and valuable if people aren't expressing opinions and votes).
Finally you've just kept saying how we need more people to weigh in all while not weighing in on anyone or putting out a single vote (despite believing RVS is worthwhile)

Agree completely.

WTF are you talking about?! Does 4 posts sound like "a lot" to you?

Aaaaand defensive.

And I'm asking people to talk more. More general conversation.

At the same time as refusing to talk yourself.

[Far_Cry]

WTF are you talking about?! Does 4 posts sound like "a lot" to you?

A lot can be accomplished in 4 posts, or nothing can be accomplished in them. I will say your 4 posts of nothing have indeed accomplished something - a vote, from me, with love.

OK, I take back what I said before. I agree that my last posts were pretty useless. And I also agree that something could be said in 4 posts.

And I'm asking people to talk more. More general conversation.

Also, how can I weigh in on anybody at the moment? What is there to get a read on? That's why I ask for more conversation.

But, oh man, how can those people offer conversation if you won't talk more with general conversation? Probably they'll post next telling you that you need to talk more so they can then weigh in on stuff once you talk.

Again. Dissonance.

Please explain why you find this "dissonance."

Finally, please clearly explain to me your thoughts on RVS. What does it mean to you?

It is an exciting period of the game where people both claim it's important and shouldn't/can't be skipped because of valuable scumtells that happen in it...
...and then decry me for taking things "too seriously" because it's "just RVS".

I have a different stance to what the RVS stage is. I don't believe it will have "valuable scumtells" as you say always. I believe RVS is used to drum up conversation, and then, in that conversation, is when scumtells can be found. Therefore, I don't take RVS too seriously, and commend those who can take us out of it.

Sorry, it's kinda late hear, and I have had a busy day (sister's b-day), so I can't do all too much analysis. I don't think much can be expected tomorrow. I will try to get some analysis up ASAP, when I have time.

[Andrigan]

I must admit I am a bit surprised at how hostile people have been to Far_cry. Even if he was being hypocritical by asking people to talk more or to say more substantive things (without doing so himself), I don't think this kind of hypocrisy is a scum-tell, nor even a sign of poor town play. It seemed like an innocent comment to get people in general to talk more given that we still have yet to hear from people at all so far. Moreover, in mafia I think that even banal comments such as "talk more" can have interesting consequences, and I think that it is right to conclude that the things Far_cry have said so far, as inconsequential as they may seem at face value, turned out to yield things of importance (namely, the defensive reactions to him by Thor, and some of the comments by nhammen). [I recognize that this last sentence is a shaky argument, so nothing should hinge upon it too much]

But getting back to the point, I guess my question for Thor is: What makes Far_cry's hypocrisy a scum-tell, rather than simply bad play-style? I ask this from you since you voted for him, rather than simply calling him in out on it. Nhammen agreed with your claims, but did not place a vote, so my question is not directed at him (though he is free to weigh in on it).

[singersigner]

RVS is a state of mind. You can vote someone for no reason whenever the hell you want...just be prepared to reap the repercussions of your actions, dun dun duuuuun!!!!!!!!!

Now that I've gotten that out of the way...3 pages in less than 24 hours?!? PLEEEEAAASE don't let thread explosions happen. I'm not a fan of being gone all day, only to have to read up on pointless arguments about "RVS pls? No thx, I'm voting FOR REALSIES."

So NOW...people have some questions pending answers...my vote is on sitting. and waiting. and we shall see...

(oh, and for those of you who don't know me...that means I'm tired and going to bed, but stopped by to say hi, read everything, and will comment when I'm of more sound mind. Toodles.)

[Jack]

I will post on page 5, have not read yet (deliberately).

[Thor665]

TL:DR

1. I point out the dissonance I see from Far_Cry.
2. I explain why I consider dissonance a votable scumtell and ask Andrigan to explain his issue with the Far_Cry pressure.
3. I crack a (brilliant) joke at Jack's expense. He'll have to appreciate it on a delay.

================================================================================================================================

Please explain why you find this "dissonance."

To sum it up shortly - you are attempting to help the pro town act of 'having more people talk' so that there will be opinions to be assessed.
To accomplish this you are specifically not talking or saying anything of note.

So, either you believe it is pro town to talk more and are choosing not to do what you believe is pro town.
Or you do not believe it is pro town and are simply saying these things because you think other people consider them pro town.

Saying one thing while doing another = dissonance.

But getting back to the point, I guess my question for Thor is: What makes Far_cry's hypocrisy a scum-tell, rather than simply bad play-style? I ask this from you since you voted for him, rather than simply calling him in out on it. Nhammen agreed with your claims, but did not place a vote, so my question is not directed at him (though he is free to weigh in on it).

Could you be any more gentle handed with this question?

His hypocrisy is a scum tell because hypocrisy suggests the possibility of lies and lies shouldn't be coming from town in the RVS.
My vote is on him because it's the biggest scumtell I've seen thus far and if I had to choose right now who would be lynched I'd choose him.

Why are you concerned with the "hostility" towards Far_Cry? I don't recall you being worried when I was voting Nexus - did you consider that a less "hostile" vote? Why/why not?

I will post on page 5, have not read yet (deliberately).

I'm glad it wasn't accidentally.

[redtail896]

Both. I'm looking for clarification on each of the points that I pointed out.

...okay.
To answer your "question" to me in the first half of your post please read the second half of your post.

redtail is making white noise with questionable direction. Could be scum just testing waters to see where suspicion might stick. I'd be willing to consider his lynch as second most worthwhile after Nexus.

I don't consider it "white noise" to ask for clarification on an issue. And the second half of my post didn't actually answer the first, since the second happened much later. I'm saying that I don't understand how serious you were at the time.

@Far_Cry: Too seriously? Indeed, I think you aren't taking them seriously enough (or rather, weren't when you said that). I read those votes as serious votes, not random, and reacted as such. How seriously would you like me to be? And while I'm glad that you understand the dissonance pointed out by Thor,

Also, did I read that right? You wanted us to

stay

in RVS?

Yes and no. Not everybody has contributed yet, so you can still say we are in RVS. Plus, we don't have any really serious cases against anyone. But the case against Nexus is one to look. I refrain from further comment until we get more people to post."

I can't disagree more. I don't consider leaving RVS as a discrete action; it's more of a continuous transition. But at the time serious accusations had certainly been thrown around, and although they were early game with not too much to go on, they merited examination. I understand wanting to hear from everyone; that doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen here that might call for a vote.

I will post on page 5, have not read yet (deliberately).

Wait, what?

[Far_Cry]

Please explain why you find this "dissonance."

To sum it up shortly - you are attempting to help the pro town act of 'having more people talk' so that there will be opinions to be assessed.
To accomplish this you are specifically not talking or saying anything of note.

So, either you believe it is pro town to talk more and are choosing not to do what you believe is pro town.
Or you do not believe it is pro town and are simply saying these things because you think other people consider them pro town.

Saying one thing while doing another = dissonance.

I never said anything about talking being pro-town or anti-town. I admit I was wrong for telling people that they should talk more, and not talk myself.

But getting back to the point, I guess my question for Thor is: What makes Far_cry's hypocrisy a scum-tell, rather than simply bad play-style? I ask this from you since you voted for him, rather than simply calling him in out on it. Nhammen agreed with your claims, but did not place a vote, so my question is not directed at him (though he is free to weigh in on it).

Could you be any more gentle handed with this question?

His hypocrisy is a scum tell because hypocrisy suggests the possibility of lies and lies shouldn't be coming from town in the RVS.
My vote is on him because it's the biggest scumtell I've seen thus far and if I had to choose right now who would be lynched I'd choose him.

Why are you concerned with the "hostility" towards Far_Cry? I don't recall you being worried when I was voting Nexus - did you consider that a less "hostile" vote? Why/why not?

This is bullshit. Hyprocrisy suggests lies, as you have stated, and is true. I, however, have not said any lies as of yet, so don't tell me that you can use that against me. And this:

If I had to choose right now who would be lynched, I'd choose him."

Tell me Sherlock, how can you lynch me for some hyprcrisy and faint scum-tells? Not everybody has posted, and you say you would want to lynch me on the spot? I'm not sure what to make of that, but the least I can is that is very ANTI-TOWN.

@Far_Cry: Too seriously? Indeed, I think you aren't taking them seriously enough (or rather, weren't when you said that). I read those votes as serious votes, not random, and reacted as such. How seriously would you like me to be? And while I'm glad that you understand the dissonance pointed out by Thor,

Also, did I read that right? You wanted us to

stay

in RVS?

Why did you consider those votes serious?

And I never said I wanted to stay in RVS. I said we should wait for more people to post before we jump to conclusions.

Yes and no. Not everybody has contributed yet, so you can still say we are in RVS. Plus, we don't have any really serious cases against anyone. But the case against Nexus is one to look. I refrain from further comment until we get more people to post."

I can't disagree more. I don't consider leaving RVS as a discrete action; it's more of a continuous transition. But at the time serious accusations had certainly been thrown around, and although they were early game with not too much to go on, they merited examination. I understand wanting to hear from everyone; that doesn't mean that stuff doesn't happen here that might call for a vote.

OK, I agree with you that things that happen in RVS can warrant a vote or two. But when I said "serious accusations," I meant that perhaps these accusations are sincere, but they do not have enough to build a case on. There simply isn't enough facts.

[Far_Cry]

OK; here are some of questions I have to ask certain people (after which I can hopefully make a judgement call):

Andrigan- What are your general thoughts? Anything that looks interesting to you?

Jack- Reasons for your delay in saying anything?

Nexus- You said before that jumping wagons "doesn't really matter at this early stage (RVS)." It seems that you have a carefree attitude towards the RVS. Why do you think it's not an offense to jump wagons, even in the RVS? And please explain your decision for staying quiet. Do you want everybody to fall on me, hoping that you could quietly slip away? If I'm not wrong, this could be your first game as scum.

nhammen- Who do you find more suspicious: Thor, Nexus, or me?

Thor665- Tell me: why are you town? Why aren't you scum? Who suspicious are you of Andrigan's comments, or are you not at all?

[Thor665]

Thor665- Tell me: why are you town? Why aren't you scum? Who suspicious are you of Andrigan's comments, or are you not at all?

I am town because when the mod randomly determined roles I came up as town.
I'm not scum because I'm town.
I'm actually not sure exactly what you're asking about Andrigan's comments. Is it *how* suspicious am I of them?
I dunno, I never really classify my suspicions that well. I'll call it a suspicion level pineapple, which is more then tangelo and less then kumquat
I do find his differing reactions to your and Nexus' wagons odd, which is why I'm asking him questions about them, depending on his answers I'll adjust my feelings, I have no solid answer yet - why are you wondering about how much I do or don't suspect Andrigan?

[Far_Cry]

Thor665- Tell me: why are you town? Why aren't you scum? Who suspicious are you of Andrigan's comments, or are you not at all?

I am town because when the mod randomly determined roles I came up as town.
I'm not scum because I'm town.
I'm actually not sure exactly what you're asking about Andrigan's comments. Is it *how* suspicious am I of them?
I dunno, I never really classify my suspicions that well. I'll call it a suspicion level pineapple, which is more then tangelo and less then kumquat
I do find his differing reactions to your and Nexus' wagons odd, which is why I'm asking him questions about them, depending on his answers I'll adjust my feelings, I have no solid answer yet - why are you wondering about how much I do or don't suspect Andrigan?

Yes sorry, I wrote a little too fast. I meant to to write how, not who.

Lol the tangelo and kumquat comment

I asked whether you suspect Andrigan because you seemed suspicious of his comments. Also, I just wanted an opinion on his comments,

and you seem like a smart and educated person, who can answer questions thoughtfully but with conviction, with a touch of humor.

[Chevre]

Vote Count 2

(2) DemonHybrid (Devon, jimfinn)
(1) singersigner (Nexus)
(1) Nexus (DemonHybrid)
(1) Far_Cry (Thor665)

(6) Not Voting (Far_Cry, Jack, nhammen, redtail896, singersigner, Andrigan)

With

11

players alive, it takes

6

votes to lynch!

[redtail896]

@Far_Cry: the Thor post that I quoted I read as being partially serious and partially in jest. The Nexus line I certainly read as serious, which is why I questioned it (I wanted to know how much he meant it vs. joking).

Also, I didn't realize that I left that hanging comma. Wow. Sorry about that.

This is bullshit. Hyprocrisy suggests lies, as you have stated, and is true. I, however, have not said any lies as of yet, so don't tell me that you can use that against me.

Hypocrisy is promoting or preaching a certain quality but failing to live up to it yourself. You encouraged active discussion, yet failed initially to participate (of course, your not-participating led to you participating quite a bit). It's a kind of lie, but subtler.

Andrigan: What do you think of Thor?

[Andrigan]

Why are you concerned with the "hostility" towards Far_Cry? I don't recall you being worried when I was voting Nexus - did you consider that a less "hostile" vote? Why/why not?

I considered the Nexus wagon less hostile given that it was early RVS, and I interpreted your vote as more of a trap to catch scum-tells from other players. However, when you shifted to Far_cry, you seemed more serious about it. This was concerning to me because I had believed that his apparent hypocrisy wasn't necessarily a scum tell (and more just a semi-botched attempt at getting people to talk).

Andrigan- What are your general thoughts? Anything that looks interesting to you?

Regarding my own stance on Nexus, the longer he waits to get back into the fray, the more suspicious I am becoming of him. I had expected Nexus to brush off the attacks as simple RVS and quickly move on, but he only became more defensive. From my view then, Nexus is the most suspicious person at the moment. Of course, this could just be his play-style or his inability to post due to time-pressure. Nonetheless, since I have nothing else to go on about him, I find him suspicious.

Right now, I am also waiting to hear from Jack to see what he has to say on page 5.

[Andrigan]

Andrigan: What do you think of Thor?

I was initially worried that he might be scum trying to quickly implant many small seeds of suspicion about people and let them run their course (against innocent townies). However, he has followed up on many of those seeds (instead of deflecting and planting more) which leads me to believe that instead he is planting traps for scum to fall into, rather than deliberately planing seeds of suspicion against townies.

[Far_Cry]

@Far_Cry: the Thor post that I quoted I read as being partially serious and partially in jest. The Nexus line I certainly read as serious, which is why I questioned it (I wanted to know how much he meant it vs. joking).

Also, I didn't realize that I left that hanging comma. Wow. Sorry about that.

This is bullshit. Hyprocrisy suggests lies, as you have stated, and is true. I, however, have not said any lies as of yet, so don't tell me that you can use that against me.

Hypocrisy is promoting or preaching a certain quality but failing to live up to it yourself. You encouraged active discussion, yet failed initially to participate (of course, your not-participating led to you participating quite a bit). It's a kind of lie, but subtler.

I fully understand what hyporcrisy is, and it's reasonable to accuse me of it. But it shouldn't warrant such a level of suspicion as to have me lynched on the spot (as Thor has stated, saying that if he could, he would lynch me now.)

Now personally, I don't find Thor inherently scummy. I agree with Andrigan that he is probably doing some sneaky scum hunting. He is an "interesting character," however, and he deserves attention.

Right now, I'd really like to hear from more people. Jack and Singersigner should be able to bring something creative to the table. I'd also like to hear some more from nhammen and jimfinn. Finally, Nexus better speak up, because I am becoming more suspicious of him by the second. It sounds like he is doing some active lurking (though I don't know if he might have some time restrictions.)

[Far_Cry]

Oh, and I forgot that DemonHybrid needs to get with the program and talk more, too.