Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[Chevre]

Vote Count 15

(2) DemonHybrid (ThAdmiral, saporovirus)
(1) ThAdmiral (DemonHybrid)

(4) Not Voting (drmyshottyizsik, Far_Cry, redtail896, Thor665)

With

7

players alive, it takes

4

votes to lynch!
Deadline is

November 15th

.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't really have a read of nhammen/drshotty if I'm being honest.

[ThAdmiral]

although a demonhybrid-nhammen/drshotty scum team would make sense. Especially if this is the first game they haven't gone after each other in.

[DemonHybrid]

Because it's the first game where he actually made LOGICAL sense.

Get over yourself, Admiral.

[ThAdmiral]

Why get over myself?
Where have I implied that I think I'm awesome?

[drmyshottyizsik]

although a demonhybrid-nhammen/drshotty scum team would make sense. Especially if this is the first game they haven't gone after each other in.

here it is implied.
Also DH is right, this is the first time I've actually sucked it up and dealt with his play style

[DemonHybrid]

Why get over myself?
Where have I implied that I think I'm awesome?

The fact that you're still pursuing your case without even taking a glance at the evidence I've provided (willingly, no less).

Because you backed down from answering my questions and evidence, you realize that the base of why you're voting me has been obliterated, right? Why doesn't shotty make sense to you, and why is your vote on me if you don't want to talk or think about perceptions on lynched townies because it's too distracting to town, when in fact, the reason WHY your vote on me is because you said I thought jimfinn was too town (which is a perception on a lynched townie)?

[ThAdmiral]

although a demonhybrid-nhammen/drshotty scum team would make sense. Especially if this is the first game they haven't gone after each other in.

here it is implied.
Also DH is right, this is the first time I've actually sucked it up and dealt with his play style

I still don't see how what I said there makes it seem like I have a high opinion of myself.

@ dh: you really are very hostile and combatative, you know that?

[DemonHybrid]

Just comes with the style, nothing personal. Read the sig

Answer please?

[redtail896]

I'm right here Far Cry. Not lurking, just thinking.

@ demonhybrid: there's just no way any sane person could have thought he was town - even by

your own reasoning

! - unless they had inside knowledge. Since you've already claimed vt that means you clearly don't have an investigative role, therefore you are scum.

This whole post bugs me. A sane person could totally have thought that he was town. I'm not to familiar with his meta, but that could easily have pointed towards him usually playing this way. Somebody might have subconsciously seen something that led them to a

gut

thought that he was town. Any number of things could be true. What you're saying here is that, if somebody wasn't on the jimfinn wagon, then that person must be scum. That's a scary/destructive way of thinking, and that's coming from one of the people behind said wagon.

Now, I feel the need to explain something about me. I tend to get hung up on minor details/single instances that I feel point a certain way. I am fully aware of this and try to combat it, but it's there nonetheless. Keep that in mind during the next section.

Unvote if any, Vote: Thor665

I would agree with singer. You're being horribly anti-town now with the sarcasm and terrible responses.

I've thought from the second I saw this post that it was scummy. Singer's case on Thor was clearly awful, and this jump on to the case was even worse.

The thing is, since we know singer is scum, it wouldn't make much sense for scum-DH to jump onto the wagon like this. Would a mafia, right after another mafia member made a case and tried to start a wagon, instantly jump onto said wagon in response? It seems unlikely. I don't think DH is that stupid.

[saporovirus]

UNVOTE: DemonHybrid

Thinkin' time.

[redtail896]

UNVOTE: DemonHybrid

Thinkin' time.

Why?

[saporovirus]

UNVOTE: DemonHybrid

Thinkin' time.

Why?

Because my entire reason for thinking DH was scum was his excessive hopping around on d1, and I will have to rethink this.

[DemonHybrid]

Admiral, you are caught in a hole here. There was a lot of mumbo jumbo in my post when I asked you the question, so I'll restate it simply this time.

If I can get ONE thing out of this game, it would be this:

ThAdmiral, why would you want to completely forget the discussion about me viewing jimfinn as obvious town and still vote for me when you clearly stated that you're voting for me because I viewed jimfinn as obvious town?

Please do not use an excuse like "I'm starting to look more town". Post #577 on this page explicitly stated that you believe shotty and I are a scumteam.

This is numero uno, #1 priority question that needs to be answered, asap.

[drmyshottyizsik]

vote admiral

[Thor665]

The thing is, since we know singer is scum, it wouldn't make much sense for scum-DH to jump onto the wagon like this. Would a mafia, right after another mafia member made a case and tried to start a wagon, instantly jump onto said wagon in response? It seems unlikely. I don't think DH is that stupid.

That's actually exactly the reason I stopped pushing DHscum on Day 2 and I agree with the logic. (though on Day 1 I was convinced no scum would make such a terrible case and DH was the follower scum of VI town )

I actually get where DH is coming from with his last question to ThAdmiral. That's actually worth hearing an answer to. That said...

@DH - in your Orson Wells post you basically say the scum team involves either Admiral or Far_Cry - you still haven't clearly answered as to why you'd want Admiral to be the first to go to my mind. Wasn't Far_Cry the scum that cleared jimfinn? Other then being "opportunistic" and other actions he's done this Day Phase do you actually think he's looked scummy in any way shape or form the other days? I think my big issue with your case is I've had a town read on the guy and you've built up an explosion case that is based entirely on play in the most recent phase.

The best case I could make on ThAdmiral = scum would be his pressure on Far_Cry Day 1 as an opposed wagon to singersinger, and yet you're highly convinced of Far_Cry's scumminess so I don't get how you think it's an either or. You're making a foible somewhere in your thinking, and I think it's clouding your judgment.

[DemonHybrid]

I told myself after jim's flip to pursue the person who comes after me with that exact case, as it's an easy way for scum to manipulate town into playing their game. While Far_Cry is still scummy from the way that he treated jimfinn among other things, Admiral's play late D2 showed him silently and slowly switching onto the jimfinn wagon, and setting up suspicion on me.

Again, I believe with an 11 player set up and that there is only two scum. With that, I have an "either Admiral OR Far_Cry" mindset. While Admiral's question dodging cements it for me, along with his opportunism, I honestly had pretty bad reads my first day and I don't like to look back to day 1 for information on Admiral. It's way too easy to bus, to set up bullshit cases, to gain town points, etc. until the first flip is out.

Could Admiral and Far_Cry be scum together, making a 3 man scum team? Possibly, but you don't have to have a scummy day 1 in order to cement a read. Just look at the way he switched over to the jimfinn wagon. If I HAD to make a 3 man scum team, it'd be Admiral, Far-Cry and singer (obviously). Assuming there are 3 scum and they are it, the bussing on Day 1, as you brought up, would fit in perfectly, but that's the reason why I don't include it into my case: I don't trust Day 1 information and I don't believe that there are 3 scum.

Here is where he started setting up suspicion on me:

I know that you have claimed VT but my belief that you are indeed town is starting to waver. I've never seen a player without any other evidence be so sure that someone is town. Especially when that someone hasn't been playing a very pro-town game at all.

I'm confident in my reads.

As far as me associating you with him... I think its fair to say that you are pretty heavily associated with him due to your own actions.

What a bad way to put it.

Being associated with someone is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BALLGAME than having a solid town read on them. Associated meaning you're affiliated with them in some way (like masons or scum). Having a town read on them meaning you're confident they're town, but not confirmed that they are.

ThAdmiral, I should say the same thing about my read on you. You've been twisting my arguments around a little more than is comfortable, and I don't like when people do that. Means they're not thinking things through. And scum are usually the ones that don't think things through.

And it's also when I started to suspect him. I had a big feeling that someone after this post would auto-vote me after jim flipped town and that's why my read is so strong on him.

[DemonHybrid]

*and that's why my read is so strong on Admiral.

I have a fever, bear with me.

[ThAdmiral]

@ demonhybrid: there's just no way any sane person could have thought he was town - even by

your own reasoning

! - unless they had inside knowledge. Since you've already claimed vt that means you clearly don't have an investigative role, therefore you are scum.

This whole post bugs me. A sane person could totally have thought that he was town. I'm not to familiar with his meta, but that could easily have pointed towards him usually playing this way. Somebody might have subconsciously seen something that led them to a

gut

thought that he was town. Any number of things could be true. What you're saying here is that, if somebody wasn't on the jimfinn wagon, then that person must be scum. That's a scary/destructive way of thinking, and that's coming from one of the people behind said wagon.

I shall answer below.

Admiral, you are caught in a hole here. There was a lot of mumbo jumbo in my post when I asked you the question, so I'll restate it simply this time.

If I can get ONE thing out of this game, it would be this:

ThAdmiral, why would you want to completely forget the discussion about me viewing jimfinn as obvious town and still vote for me when you clearly stated that you're voting for me because I viewed jimfinn as obvious town?

Please do not use an excuse like "I'm starting to look more town". Post #577 on this page explicitly stated that you believe shotty and I are a scumteam.

This is numero uno, #1 priority question that needs to be answered, asap.

I still believe that argument, but I just didn't want to get in to a wall-of-text vs wall-of-text battle that it was becoming.
Essentially this is my standpoint: given how terrible and seemingly scummy jimfinn was playing, as I said almost mocking the town with his lack of contribution and wallowing in his apparent scumminess, I don't understand how anyone could have a) thought he was town at all, and b) really, really, really thought he was town to the point where that someone would defend him to the death.
I've never played with jimfinn before. If he truly does play like this as town then he is a fairly useless player.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Jimfinn is always a very useless player

[DemonHybrid]

I still believe that argument, but I just didn't want to get in to a wall-of-text vs wall-of-text battle that it was becoming.
Essentially this is my standpoint: given how terrible and seemingly scummy jimfinn was playing, as I said almost mocking the town with his lack of contribution and wallowing in his apparent scumminess, I don't understand how anyone could have a) thought he was town at all, and b) really, really, really thought he was town to the point where that someone would defend him to the death.
I've never played with jimfinn before. If he truly does play like this as town then he is a fairly useless player.

That isn't answering my question. That's stating why you started talking about it, but why did you start talking about it, back away from the argument and keep your vote on me?

[DemonHybrid]

It wasn't a wall-of-text battle, it's a legitimate concern.

You said, quote:

It is a bit retarded that we are arguing over perceptions of a dead townie. And I know you're just going to come out with some overly hostile wall of text in response...
Can we just skip it? We're clearly not going to change each others minds.

I'm not doubting that you didn't want a text wall battle, and I understand that. But you realize that you were the one that started the argument and are still voting me for such a reason, right?

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry for the triple post, this fever is completely screwing with my head. Let me try to make myself more clear, since I'm not focusing that well.

Basically, my point comes down to the "This argument is retarded" part of your statement. If the argument is retarded, why do you still believe it and why are you still voting me because of it?

[Thor665]

@DH - he's not saying the argument (case) is retarded he's saying the argument (debate of it) is retarded. Both are viable beliefs that can coexist.

That said, there is an angle here I now find disturbing.

@Admiral - the way you phrased your desire to end the argument now looks weird to me. By the sheer fact of you backing off in the way you did tends to suggest that you believe that DH legitimately believes his Far_Cry standpoint. If he really believes it then how is it scummy?

[saporovirus]

Go to bed, DH.