Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[ThAdmiral]

Please point out instances of parroting

post 460 - he just reposts what sapovirus said as his case against far cry.

why his case on Far Cry was bad

Because he didn't have one, and when asked

multiple

times didn't tell us what it was.

what was scummy about him picking out my flaws

Not really relevant.

and how he was wishy-washy with his playing

Saying that his case on far cry was based on "they appeared to be "directing" each other" (from post 351, referencing singer and farcry), but never actually presenting any reasoning/evidence of this.

trying to cause deliberate confusion.

I'm not sure he was trying to cause deliberate confusion but he was certainly flaunting the fact that he wasn't responding to requests by the town.
Post 410: "Haven't we given you plenty of specific examples about Far_Cry?" - clearly he hadn't
Post 415: "Four days? We're only on day 2!" - pretending to not understand Thor was talking about 'game days' so as to duck a question.
Post 460: "Thank you for this excellent summary of why FC's D2 play is scummy." - quoting sapovirus' case when we had clearly been asking

him

to state

his

case
Post 478: "If that's not a prod-dodge, I don't know what is." - referring to farcry, which is hypocritical as jimfinn certainly hadn't been posting much at all himself. Also ignored questions that had been asked of him.
etc.

[ThAdmiral]

@ demonhybrid: there's just no way any sane person could have thought he was town - even by

your own reasoning

! - unless they had inside knowledge. Since you've already claimed vt that means you clearly don't have an investigative role, therefore you are scum.

[DemonHybrid]

post 460 - he just reposts what sapovirus said as his case against far cry.

Misrep. He thanked her for making a good case; he didn't try to steal it and use it himself. Nice try.

Because he didn't have one, and when asked multiple times didn't tell us what it was.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2591712
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2591737
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2536920
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2571672
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2587779, which isn't a parrot.

Not really relevant.

Then you don't really care about whether he was town or not. Picking out someone's flaws like he did to me screams pro-town.

Saying that his case on far cry was based on "they appeared to be "directing" each other" (from post 351, referencing singer and farcry), but never actually presenting any reasoning/evidence of this.

And they were. You don't need to be a fucking lawyer to direct someone's attention to something like that and bring EVERY piece of evidence to the table.

I'm not sure he was trying to cause deliberate confusion

Good. Then stop talking.

@ demonhybrid: there's just no way any sane person could have thought he was town - even by your own reasoning! - unless they had inside knowledge. Since you've already claimed vt that means you clearly don't have an investigative role, therefore you are scum.

Do I even need to talk about how awful this logic is?

1. Finding jimfinn town = insane, even with reasoning. False, because reads in mafia are subjective.
2. Having inside knowledge about jim being town = I MUST be an investigative role or scum. False, because I don't have inside knowledge; I made a good subjective read on jimfinn.
3. I don't have said investigative role because I claimed VT = I must be scum. False. He is assuming that #1 (which is false) and #2 (which is false) are both true.

You have no basis on which to vote me or create a case against me. It has been nothing but misrepping, lies, and painting peoples' hands red.

Can we lynch ThAdmiral, please?

[ThAdmiral]

Not really relevant.

Then you don't really care about whether he was town or not. Picking out someone's flaws like he did to me screams pro-town.

You've mentioned this a few times. Can you explain it?

Furthermore it seems to be the only thing that lead you to believe he was

town

. All of the other stuff you point out at best only indicate that he may not necessarily 100% have been scum, as opposed to indicating that he was town. You had/have blinkers on when talking about jimfinn as if he played like he was some paragon of townliness when it is clear that he wasn't.

[ThAdmiral]

I can't be fucked with this any more to be honest. It is a bit retarded that we are arguing over perceptions of a dead townie. And I know you're just going to come out with some overly hostile wall of text in response...
Can we just skip it? We're clearly not going to change each others minds.

[saporovirus]

You guys, I think I found the scum. He is a little canid fellow (though I guess now he's one of 'em pokiemans).

d1: votes Nexus for being especially srs. Later says "O great, a Nexus wagon, he so scummy." Points FOS at Redtail, Devon, Far_Cry, and Thor, says singer's alright early on (in a noncommittal kind of way). Singer votes him for explaining about how Devon has a busy life, and his reply is: "Oh well you're being a silly bimbo Singer but other than that your play has been ok." My reaction would be OMGSCUM immediately. In that same post (his #40) he implicates various players as scummy because of minor arguments he made against them ages ago.

IN HIS 45 he's like "Oh my goshers Thor is still scummy but I like his arguments against you singer so I'm 'a gonna vote."

54: Polite and kind to singer scummer because she's sick, looks suspiciously at my miller claim- could be a distraction tactic but that's definitely a stretch.

So in summary his d1 FoS are all over the place, he doesn't really commit to the idea of a scumsinger though he votes her early, and I think in general his playstyle is very smoke and mirrors-y.

d2: Far_Cry is a very easy lynch to sell in this game (sorry bro). However, I'm just not feeling his scumliness anymore (sounds dirty) because DH basically has been tunneling the fuck out of him. I know that his tone hasn't been great in this game, but he dug himself into a hole early on and I honestly just think he's acting out because he's been hounded (lol). Also, DH claims to be "confident in his reads" but he was kind of all over the place on that d1, which suggests to me he's been distracting town on purpose.

d3: I don't think Demon's confidence in jimfinn is scummy in itself. This is also the one thing that makes me doubt my scum read, because I too had a strong feeling that jim was town. My feeling came entirely from glancing through his other games and realizing that he basically plays like that all the time. I also think I found a scum game where he actually posted more in an effort to misdirect people. IDK, it's moot now, but I'm just saying that while I too wasn't for the jimlynch, I think maybe DH argued against it to confuse town. All analysis of that situation will turn into WIFOM, so I will leave it alone for now. I have better reasons to suspect him than that anyway .

OK I'll take a look at the vote count now and make sure I'm not doing anything too drastic before I throw the hatchet. And I apologize for my wordy posting style today guys, this is how hungover saporovirus types and talks.

EDIT: so ThAdmiral's last post confirms for me EVEN MORE that he is town. Way to not mire town down, buddy! <3

[saporovirus]

OK, 1 vote on DH, takes four to lynch. I'm ready.

vote: demonhybrid

[DemonHybrid]

I can't be fucked with this any more to be honest. It is a bit retarded that we are arguing over perceptions of a dead townie. And I know you're just going to come out with some overly hostile wall of text in response...
Can we just skip it? We're clearly not going to change each others minds.

So, you just have to answer to the evidence which I presented against you. That's cool.

You've mentioned this a few times. Can you explain it?

Furthermore it seems to be the only thing that lead you to believe he was town. All of the other stuff you point out at best only indicate that he may not necessarily 100% have been scum, as opposed to indicating that he was town. You had/have blinkers on when talking about jimfinn as if he played like he was some paragon of townliness when it is clear that he wasn't.

He had two supporters yesterday, and he dared to challenge one. How the hell is that NOT pro-town?

Saporo, you are fucking failing. Hardcore. Furthermore, funny you should mention the Absol in my avatar; maybe you should look up to see what an Absol does. Holds special meaning, ESPECIALLY in this game.

So in summary his d1 FoS are all over the place

No kidding? So has everyone else's. You're making no sense, and like everyone else, you've found a bullshit reason to suspect me.

Far_Cry is a very easy lynch to sell in this game (sorry bro). However, I'm just not feeling his scumliness anymore (sounds dirty) because DH basically has been tunneling the fuck out of him. I know that his tone hasn't been great in this game, but he dug himself into a hole early on and I honestly just think he's acting out because he's been hounded (lol). Also, DH claims to be "confident in his reads" but he was kind of all over the place on that d1, which suggests to me he's been distracting town on purpose.

I wasn't too confident in my reads Day 1. That's what a Day 1 in mafia is like; NO ONE is very sure on their reads until the first flip, so where the hell have you been?

so ThAdmiral's last post confirms for me EVEN MORE that he is town. Way to not mire town down, buddy! <3

Please explain why. I basically cockslapped him with evidence and he backed down, and you find that town?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: "So, you just have

no

answer to the evidence which I presented against you. That's cool."

[DemonHybrid]

To further comment, he was the one that started said "perceptions of a dead townie" and is the reason why he's voting for me. I don't see how ANY of you people can't see the scumminess in that.

[saporovirus]

DH, all of us have bullshit reasons for voting people. Pointing multiple FoS is not a scumtell, agreed. However, and this might well be a review bias thing, when I look at the big picture, it seems to fit into a pattern. I was attempting to elucidate the pattern. Also you should maybe try not to be so angry when responding to accusations. Saying that someone is "fucking failing" doesn't really prove that they are wrong.

I think ThAdmiral's backing down is pro-town because I believe his reason for doing so is to avoid distracting text-walls. He didn't say "I don't believe in my perception of a dead townie," he said "arguing about this is stupid so I'm backing down." You're attempting to stir the argument up again. Guess who ends up looking better?

lol @ Absol.

[DemonHybrid]

First, if multiple FoSes are not a scumtell, especially on Day 1, and seems to be random and you have to -try- to see the pattern, why do you think there's even a pattern in the first place? You basically just told me that your vote makes no sense, and it doesn't.

Second, Saporo, he STARTED the conversation! It's the reason why he's voting me! It does NOT look better when he votes me for viewing jimfinn as obvious town, tries to push reasoning against me for that which looks terrible and then backs away when I present valid and concrete evidence! And if you think that what I'm posting are "walls", you're very sorely mistaken.

I get angry when I'm frustrated. When people push such terrible cases against me and call them valid while completely ignoring and discrediting evidence which took time and patience to put together, it gets me frustrated.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, for those that are too lazy to look up Absol:

"Absol is able to predict when a natural disaster will occur, and tries to warn people when one is approaching. This often has the unfortunate effect of Absol itself being blamed for the disaster."

[saporovirus]

DH, aside from ThAdmiral, who else is scum?

[DemonHybrid]

Like I said, Far_Cry.

[Thor665]

I'm having a hard time understanding DH's shift to ThAdmiral from either a scum or town perspective. Neither is making much sense to me and now my head hurts.

@sapo - accusing DH of being all over Day 1, and then accusing him of tunneling Day 2 while also dismissing his claims of being 'confident' on Day 2 because he was all over the place on Day 1...blargh, that's terrible. Tunnel and confident Day 2 has very little to do with being uncertain Day 1 and they don't really cancel each other out.

What was your read on nhamman? (you don't need to tell me you read on shotty unless you really want to, but I want the nhamman slot read).

[DemonHybrid]

Thor, was that meant for me?

I honestly have no read on nhamman. He posted nearly no information, and shotty is shotty.

[Far_Cry]

@ demonhybrid: there's just no way any sane person could have thought he was town - even by

your own reasoning

! - unless they had inside knowledge. Since you've already claimed vt that means you clearly don't have an investigative role, therefore you are scum.

This is a point, but I don't think it

guarantees

that he is scum. Your reason is by playing the obvious - that since DH KNEW that jimfinn was town (in fact, the only person who thought he was town) and since he's obviously not the cop, he MUST be scum. The idea of him having inside info (scum) is plausible, but I don't think him knowing that jimfinn was town proves anything yet. Though I do agree, that his reasoning for supporting jimfinn was faulty.

1. Finding jimfinn town = insane, even with reasoning. False, because reads in mafia are subjective.

This is something that can be easily said. I know reads are subjective, but if your reasoning was faulty, then its obviously something that needs to be paid attention to.

2. Having inside knowledge about jim being town = I MUST be an investigative role or scum. False, because I don't have inside knowledge; I made a good subjective read on jimfinn.

I addressed this above; no, you're not guaranteed scum. But you saying, "Oh, I don't have inside knowledge" isn't proving anything, and as a result, not helping your case. BTW, you did NOT have a "good subjective read" on jimfinn.

You have no basis on which to vote me or create a case against me. It has been nothing but misrepping, lies, and painting peoples' hands red.

Can we lynch ThAdmiral, please?

Whoa. This is what I was talking about when I called you an egotistical bastard. True, Admiral's case was not solid, but its not based on lies, like you said.

For this whole game, you've been in love with your cases, and thinks everybody else's cases sucked. Tell me, did you ever say anyone else's case besides your own was good? Quit playing like you're the fucking know-it-all, because you're screwing things up.

You guys, I think I found the scum. He is a little canid fellow (though I guess now he's one of 'em pokiemans).

d1: votes Nexus for being especially srs. Later says "O great, a Nexus wagon, he so scummy." Points FOS at Redtail, Devon, Far_Cry, and Thor, says singer's alright early on (in a noncommittal kind of way). Singer votes him for explaining about how Devon has a busy life, and his reply is: "Oh well you're being a silly bimbo Singer but other than that your play has been ok." My reaction would be OMGSCUM immediately. In that same post (his #40) he implicates various players as scummy because of minor arguments he made against them ages ago.

IN HIS 45 he's like "Oh my goshers Thor is still scummy but I like his arguments against you singer so I'm 'a gonna vote."

54: Polite and kind to singer scummer because she's sick, looks suspiciously at my miller claim- could be a distraction tactic but that's definitely a stretch.

So in summary his d1 FoS are all over the place, he doesn't really commit to the idea of a scumsinger though he votes her early, and I think in general his playstyle is very smoke and mirrors-y.

d2: Far_Cry is a very easy lynch to sell in this game (sorry bro). However, I'm just not feeling his scumliness anymore (sounds dirty) because DH basically has been tunneling the fuck out of him. I know that his tone hasn't been great in this game, but he dug himself into a hole early on and I honestly just think he's acting out because he's been hounded (lol). Also, DH claims to be "confident in his reads" but he was kind of all over the place on that d1, which suggests to me he's been distracting town on purpose.

d3: I don't think Demon's confidence in jimfinn is scummy in itself. This is also the one thing that makes me doubt my scum read, because I too had a strong feeling that jim was town. My feeling came entirely from glancing through his other games and realizing that he basically plays like that all the time. I also think I found a scum game where he actually posted more in an effort to misdirect people. IDK, it's moot now, but I'm just saying that while I too wasn't for the jimlynch, I think maybe DH argued against it to confuse town. All analysis of that situation will turn into WIFOM, so I will leave it alone for now. I have better reasons to suspect him than that anyway .

OK I'll take a look at the vote count now and make sure I'm not doing anything too drastic before I throw the hatchet. And I apologize for my wordy posting style today guys, this is how hungover saporovirus types and talks.

EDIT: so ThAdmiral's last post confirms for me EVEN MORE that he is town. Way to not mire town down, buddy! <3

Ummmmm, yeaaaaah. This is not convincing me anything. DH's play D2, has nothing to do with his play D1, so it doesn't mean anything that he was all over the place D1 and then centered on me D2.

And Admiral has not at ALL confirmed that he is town. So stop acting like he's obvtown.

To further comment, he was the one that started said "perceptions of a dead townie" and is the reason why he's voting for me. I don't see how ANY of you people can't see the scumminess in that.

Actually, this is true. I'm going to need to take a closer look at Admiral, maybe do an ISO of him.

Like I said, Far_Cry.

So you're saying that the scum trio is singer, ThAdmiral/Jack, and I. Tell me, how did you link Admiral and I? Or maybe Admiral/Jack to singer?

[Far_Cry]

EBWOP: Where the fuck is redtail? He is the only one not participating in the discussion. Lurking much?

[drmyshottyizsik]

ok so I iso'd DH, and put together a case, and then it hit me.
I find DH scummy no matter what. I don't think a single game I've played with him I haven't pushed for his lynch... and after iso'ing him here and then going back and looking at other games that he was town in... well it looks like he's just being town DH who I think plays scummy.

Any way so I'm going to go iso Far_Cry and Thor now

[DemonHybrid]

This is a point, but I don't think it guarantees that he is scum. Your reason is by playing the obvious - that since DH KNEW that jimfinn was town (in fact, the only person who thought he was town) and since he's obviously not the cop, he MUST be scum. The idea of him having inside info (scum) is plausible, but I don't think him knowing that jimfinn was town proves anything yet. Though I do agree, that his reasoning for supporting jimfinn was faulty.

Closer, but still no. Could it be plausible for me to have inside info? Sure. Could it be plausible that any of you guys to have inside info but still choose to lynch jim? Even moreso.

I STILL have yet to find out why my reasoning was faulty. So...yeah, you guys are still failing.

This is something that can be easily said. I know reads are subjective, but if your reasoning was faulty, then its obviously something that needs to be paid attention to.

But it wasn't. And you guys have yet to still prove that. Admiral already tried to pin him with parroting, which was completely false. What's your excuse?

I addressed this above; no, you're not guaranteed scum. But you saying, "Oh, I don't have inside knowledge" isn't proving anything, and as a result, not helping your case. BTW, you did NOT have a "good subjective read" on jimfinn.

I know it isn't, but maybe if you guys would fucking listen to someone other than yourselves for once in your lives, that might help. And obviously I did have a good read on jim, because I wasn't the one that lynched obvious town. You guys were.

Whoa. This is what I was talking about when I called you an egotistical bastard. True, Admiral's case was not solid, but its not based on lies, like you said.

For this whole game, you've been in love with your cases, and thinks everybody else's cases sucked. Tell me, did you ever say anyone else's case besides your own was good? Quit playing like you're the fucking know-it-all, because you're screwing things up.

More insults. Keep it up.

And yes. I said I liked saporo's arguments, until just recently. I liked everyone's arguments vs Nexus, until he claimed, obviously. I liked all of the singer cases.

Ummmmm, yeaaaaah. This is not convincing me anything. DH's play D2, has nothing to do with his play D1, so it doesn't mean anything that he was all over the place D1 and then centered on me D2.

And Admiral has not at ALL confirmed that he is town. So stop acting like he's obvtown.

Actually, this is true. I'm going to need to take a closer look at Admiral, maybe do an ISO of him.

So you're saying that the scum trio is singer, ThAdmiral/Jack, and I. Tell me, how did you link Admiral and I? Or maybe Admiral/Jack to singer?

I think there's a scum duo. If it's not Admiral, it's you, and I don't think it's all 3 of you. (yes, still. You have agreed with me, but that doesn't make the past any different, and I still have an eye on you. Submitting to that would just be bias, and I think we all know that.)

Preview edit: .....did....shotty just...say something extremely smart?

[Thor665]

Thor, was that meant for me?

No, sappo.
But, really, zero read on nhamman? Are there any other players you have zero read on?

[DemonHybrid]

No. Both you and redtail have improved play and I view you guys as town.

Shotty is tilting over the fence on the town side with that last statement, however. He's using his brain and actually improving, and I don't think that you improve that well going from a bunch of games where he was VI-town to playing scum, so I'm going to believe that he's town now.

Saporo is and always has looked town, but she's misguided now.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Ok so I'm in a rush atm, but right now I'm going to say that a Thor/Admiral Scum team would be 100% perfect and make 100%sense

[saporovirus]

nhamman seems pretty convincingly town to me, if only because he actually reads things carefully when making his arguments, which I seem incapable of doing today . It is difficult to get a read though, since he wasn't on the site much. There's pretty much no way of telling what shotty is.