Mini 946 The new Zachtown (Game Over!)

[Lacey]

vote: VP Baltar

For betraying us to the cylons >:(

[Lacey]

Please don't ruin Battlestar! I just started waaaaaaaaaaaatching it *explodes*

RDM already ruined it for me

[Lacey]

Lacey, you had it coming. And don't worry Sotty, she didn't really ruin anything. (though no one should do that, it's very mean)

I didn't mean too

I thought everyone knew that. Don't they reveal it in the Pilot?

[Lacey]

Well, yeah, but she might not have seen that I guess if she just started at Season 1.

I thought the Pilot was the first part of Season 1...

Anyhow, what do you think of Alex's self vote?

*shrug* I assume it is just stupid RVS. Are self votes in RVS part of his meta?

[Lacey]

Lacey, are you suspicious of anyone on the wagon? Should I be more suspicious of anyone on the wagon?

I'm suspicious of everyone, as I hope you are too. We've still no idea what game we're even playing. That being said. I like the wagon. L-2 ought to put some pressure on Alexithyma, and pressure is a good way of getting good reads. If nothing else maybe it'll eek out an apology for that disturbing graph *grumble frown*

And aren't you supposed to be retired?

I'm on indefinite break, but I make exceptions for folks like Zach

jeromus's forced vote bothers me.

What do you mean by forced vote? What specifically about his vote bothers you? Do you have any questions you'd like to pose about this topic?

What also bothers me is that he's excusing Alex for being a dumbass in a game that started ten months or so ago; do you think anything would/could have changed over that time?

Agree here, it seems premature to be worried about defending another player, and jeromus didn't just say he had no opinion, but launched into a defense of Alexithyma. Jeromus, why do you feel the need to jump to Alexithyma's defense? Are you worried about him being at L-2?

[Lacey]

I'm pretty sure the game is Mafia, at least.

With 12 players it seems likely we're either up against (A) one large mafia, or (B) two scum groups. The last time Zachrulez ran a Zachtown game the answer was the former, a large mafia:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1250

Determining which hole we're in is, in my opinion, important to our strategy and scum hunting.

You didn't really answer either of my questions though - are the people on the wagon more likely to be scum?

Not in my opinion. It's a null tell for me on both sides. The wagon seems a good way to flush out scum, so being on it could be seen as slightly town in scenario (A), but in scenario (B) it's a null tell as scum would also have an incentive to scum hunt.

Oh right, before I forget. What's it like to be scum?

My only scum experience was as a replacement during lylo, so I can't answer your question very well, except to say I dislike being the bad guys.

But this gives us a new and better question to pose to everyone:

Which do you prefer, town or scum? Why?

Personally I prefer town. I enjoy being one of the good guys, and I rather detest lying. Being town makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

[Lacey]

Not on Day 1.
There is zero reason for Town to care about that on Day 1, before any kills or flips. To contrast, caring about that sort of thing is one of the first orders of business for scum.

Care to explain this position? I'd think it would be the exact opposite. A scum group would already know as they know how many scum players there are.

If you're in a group of four scum, then obviously there is one scum group, otherwise scum would outnumber town.

If you're in a group of three scum, then obviously there is one scum group, otherwise scum would be equal to town.

If you're in a group of two scum, then there are probably two scum groups, otherwise scum would be at an extreme disadvantage.

We however, have zero information, unless part of a mason pair. So it seems this question is one scum would want to keep hushed up, and town would like to shed light on, which seems the opposite of what you suggest.

Not if there's one scum group. Oh wait.

Which is what I said in my (A) case. Are you just skimming posts?

I can't answer the last question too well. I'm never scum.

You've never been scum in any of your games? I thought you were a rather experienced player?

[Lacey]

This is where you're wrong. Two-person scumteams are not uncommon against Towns of limited power.

Maybe I misunderstand the dynamics of a 2 scum vs. 10 town, but the setup seems to favor town over scum at first glance, especially with power roles.

And how do you propose we find out - without any flips or kills?

By analyzing potential scum pairs, examples of buddying, etc. Most of all we need to keep in mind the potential setups when building our cases and examining our evidence. For example, since (B) is a potential case, someone scum hunting vigorously needs to not be taken as a gold standard of being town. Vigilance will be key.

As always, the more information we are aware of, the better the chance of a town win.

Yes. I mean--wait--
In all seriousness I didn't make the connection. In any event, taking your (A) case, do you believe that on principle or because of the events surrounding this wagon?

More on principle. In some of my initial games I would have taken it as a scum tell, but my small experience has taught me that wagons tend to pressure and help town win.

This particular wagon is more likely just RVS. However it's already brought out some interesting facts.

1) Jeromus is defensive of Alexithymus, something to keep an eye on.
2) Our discussion, which is hopefully helping the rest of town take positions on our play.

You did avoid my last question by the way. Are you implying you've never played a game with a scum alignment?

[Lacey]

Wait...I'm being leaped upon because my random vote offered no relevant justification? Wow.

But reading down, it appears that it is not so.

And @BattlestarwatcherwhomIcannotremembertheusernameforatthispoint - I was saying that your claims of not knowing that he'd betrayed humanity to the cylons was inconsistent with the fact that, were you watching it for more than, say, 4 minutes, you'd already know that. I'll admit, inconsistent BARELY fits in that context.

My defense of Alex was also symptomatic of my uncanny ability to make silly game related remarks and be jumped upon for doing so. See mine and Alex's first game together...I pretend that that wasn't even me a lot of the time.

Someone sounds a little uncomfortable in the spotlight.

unvote. Vote:jeromus

You didn't really answer my question. My big issue is with the way you defended him too. It feels to me like you were trying to distance yourself from Alexithymus, while at the same time defending him.

Calling him a "dumbass" like you did feels funny to me. I'd like a more thorough explanation of the following:

1) Why you jumped to his defense. Say it was a silly game related remark doesn't satisfy me. Walk us through your thought process.

2) Why did you decide to defend him the way you did?

[Lacey]

I don't have the time right now to go through post by post and answer questions that were posed for me, so I'm going to do a quick job of it here, and if anyone thinks I missed something, let me know. It will likely be Monday before I can get sufficient time to answer as I am trying to avoid on-line games on Sundays.

So first off, why did I talk about the game setup? I know folks aren't too fond of it for some reason, but check out my games on my wiki page. I always do it. It's my meta I suppose. I'm a mathematician and I want to know the odds. Knowing how many mislynches we are from lylo is important to my personal strategies. This is my first game in an "unknown" setup, and it makes me nervous not to have any clue what we're up against.

Yes, I have played in a game with multiple mafia before. I can't talk about it as it is still in session, but I had it drilled into me during that game that it changes the nature of scum hunting.

And my question about what everyone prefers to play was intended to spur discussion. Check my records. I always do it.

As for my voting for jeromus, no apologies there. I think he is looking scummy. His defense of Alexithymia smells wrong, and when I listed out questions he more or less blithely avoided them. I feel he jumped to the defense of another player in RVS, and this to me seems pretty scummy.

My vote went on him when it did because he was openly being nervous and claiming the spot light was on him, when he was still at L-7. Anyone that nervous and fearing pressure needs to get more pressure.

Now I'm growing more convinced that I'm right as Alexithymia accused me of vote hopping.

Vote hopping, really? Since when is switching from RVS to a serious vote, vote hopping? It's scummy to even say this. I'm betting Alexithymia was nervous because I was voting jeromus, his buddy who was defending him from the wagon.

There is something seriously fishing going on between these two.

[Lacey]

I meant Vi. Vi's votehopping.

I got you're names mixed up.

I'm not suspicious of you, I'm suspicious of Vi.

I'm not active lurking, I'm trying to write the flavor for my game. So much to catch up on

Vi has "votehopped" no more than I have Alexithymia.

[Lacey]

And that is a seriously lame defense for the growing connection between you and jeromus in my opinion. You meant to type Vi but typed "Lacey" instead?

[Lacey]

Dont protect her.

Go analyse the votes for yourself.

She voted jeromus. Then unvoted and voted me. Nearly EVERYONE so far has switched votes once. If you feel there is a legitimate reason to accuse Vi of vote hopping, you have to make one, not just assert one by fiat.

And I still feel this is just a distraction by you to avoid the fact that you initially accused me of vote hoping. Problem is, your distraction is no more believable than your original accusation. You're trying to bury the jeromus tie in nonsense.

[Lacey]

You are already thinking LyLo on D1?

Way to twist my words. I'd just like to know how many lynches we get. I've played a lot of C9, where you have to guess right very quickly.

Looking at your Wiki... you were killed N1 twice and Lynched Day 1 once. You replaced into a game and won as scum...

Your meta doesn't seem to be very successful, from a once over glance...

It's a somewhat fair argument, though the sample size is not yet large enough to be statistically significant. In the end, I'm a mathematician. I can't help that my mind wants the odds and wants to run simulations of the games to understand the dynamics from a theoretical point of view. That's just how I work.

[Lacey]

Knowing how many mislynches we are from lylo is important to my personal strategies.

I didn't twist your words. You mention it right there. See it? ^ Right up there.

Yes, and it's an awful large leap to go from there to claiming I am thinking Day 1 is lylo.

Zach is a smart guy, he wouldn't design such an abusive game.

[Lacey]

By the way, change your meta. It's harmful for the reasons I brought up earlier, plus you can't disavow

every

Town read you have because there's a

chance

there might be multiple scum groups.

Well I wouldn't say that I am claiming to cloud judgement on Day 1, or disavowing town reads, so I resent that. I've not attempted to cloud a single thing, nor disavowed any town reads as of yet. I'm just trying to get a sense of where the game is and what I ought to be looking for.

That being said, I do need to change my meta. While I take the two times I was night killed on N1 with a little bit of pride, I did get mislynched once, and have led the bandwagons on mislynches. So I definitely need to find a better way to scum hunt effectively, and pick up on actual scum tells, instead of just anti-town tells.

Last, the general rule is that Town loses after mislynching three times if there are more than seven players (even in Large games, as long as there are more than seven players).

Where does this rule come from? It's an interesting theory if there is reason to believe it. Did you mean seven town, or seven players? Because C9 allows only one mislynch.

I'd like to hear what folks think of jeromus and Alexithymia.

d3x needs to stop looking like an active lurker and post some case analysis.

[Lacey]

Lacey- Do you think I'm Scum? How do you feel about active lurkers?

No, I don't think you are scum, if I did, I'd be voting or FoSing you. I just wanted you to begin posting substance rather than filler, which you've now started to do.

In general I believe active lurkers appear scummy. Folks need to take positions on lynch candidates, and players. Post reasons, and discuss their current beliefs. Active lurkers don't do this, so at best they are anti-town.

So here are my main reads:

jeromus - Scummy. I don't like his defense of Alexithymia, his explanation, or his avoidance of the thread once he began to be questioned.

@jeromus: What do you think of Alexithymia's accusations of vote hopping?

Alexithymia - Scummy. Attacking me for "vote hopping" when I voted for his defender. Then claiming it was actually Vi he was suspicious of, even though she's not vote hopped either.

Vi - Town, Vi is scum hunting and doing a good job of driving conversations without controlling them. Seems the model townie.

@Vi - What does your comment about Cirdua mean? I don't fully understand your vote here.

I promise not to cloud the discussion with talk of the setup. I did read your guide on Modding, between this and some of your comments on setup, could I secure a date post game for some PM's on the subject? I'd like to discuss the theory and you seem to have put a lot of thought into it.

VP Baltar - Town, same general vibe as Vi.

@VP Baltar - What about Col Cathart makes you favor him for a vote right now? You state he is a better place to look than jeromus/Alexithymia. Can you help us understand your feeling?

d3x - Leaning town if he keeps posting.

@d3x - I'd like to hear more from you about some of the other scum cases out there right now.

Jasper - Leaning town. He's doing his research on claimed metas which I doubt scum would do.

All the rest, I don't feel comfortable saying anything but that they need to post more.

Offline until Monday

[Lacey]

Can someone explain to me what is going on with Alexithymia and Haylen? Are they the same person? One claims to be female, the other claims to be male... and I thought multi's were against the rules. What vital piece of information am I missing here

I'm not sure why you think d3x is Town, but I have a guess - I just don't agree with it.

I was leaning town as d3x seemed to step up and post some content. I'm not seeing much since then, however. Right now I am trying to assess who is actually playing to hunt, and who is making noise, or holding back.

@jeromus:

I am liking you less and less, you've just posted some more information about supposed friendships and other nonsense. How about taking a position on some of the lynches underway. What do you think of Cirdua? What do you think of me?

@Alexithymia:

I really don't like the way your posts feel so more. We get a lot of jabber about play style, then some really slimy posts about your "s" key being broken, when 8 minutes prior you had been posting with "s" just fine. I don't know what you think this is doing. Making noise? Trying to look endearing? You still haven't made a case for your suspicion of vote hopping. I give you one more post to do so, until I decide you're trying to ignore the inconvenient fact that you have no case here, and waiting for it to go away.

So pushing a player up to lynch -2 on page one is a null tell? I'm not really sure how that works. Scum should always be scum hunting. The trick is making it look legitimate. Are you saying that the people that pushed Alex's wagon up get town points for doing so?

Null tell means they get no "points" either way, though just for reference, I hate the idea of points. I just see it as a legitimate way to get out of RVS by putting some pressure and forcing people to take sides. The only one I am beginning to count it against is Col Cathart. His flippant rejection of the "Fong Gambit" along with the little show he put on of saying "What is it? Looking it up...", I don't like it. Although I dislike it.

I also don't like that Col Cathart hasn't posted much more than defense. I'd like to see him come out and take positions on the current lynch candidates. Specifically, Col. Cathart, can you comment on your opinions of the following lynch candidates, Cirdua, Me, jeromus, and Alexithymia?

My thoughts on the current Cirdua lynch:

I don't completely agree with the lynch yet, as I still want to hear more from jeromus in particular. But here are some things I don't like about Cirdua:

Has someone read the game flavor? It says we're actually all scum right? So no matter who we lynch, we'll kill scum!

I've gone back and read in ISO, and now I'm reading this initially dismissed line, and I just don't like the way it dismisses mislynches as if they're still a good thing. Maybe it's just flavor, but I don't like this kind of "we're all scum!" mentality. Feels wrong.

Also the following bothers me:

Oh, I see Cirdua is already misrepping me

Just like old times eh

After accusing jermous of trying to distract town from scum hunting, responding to a claim of misrepresenting someone without backing up the claim bothers me. Maybe the original accusation was made jokingly... I can't tell. It bothers me on a gut level.

So voted oneself means one's scum? Last game I played with Alex, he voted himself too, but wasn't scum. I agree though, self-voting certainly doesn't help the town.
But what I'm having most trouble with is that the wagon formed awfully quickly, especially given the lack of response on Alex's behalf. Any scum on the wagon trying to lynch a less-active player before he can defend himself?

This post bothers me too. In my experience early bandwagons almost never carry over to a full blown lynch, so it feels needlessly defensive. And then we have the following post from jeromus:

There's not even extensive history between Cird, Alex and I...Just intensive. Basically, Cirdua scum-pwned us both, having Alex mislynched and then was on the way to victory when our mod left us - As a result, Alex declared a vendetta against Cirdua, and I just felt like tagging along in this game.

Which seems to be trying to cover over the strange defensiveness we're getting from jeromus-cirdua on alexithymia. Especially since the defensiveness of cirdua on alexithymia doesn't feel like it's coming from a vendetta relationship to me.

Having written all of that, and looking more closely at cirdua, I think I like cirdua for scum more than col cathart right now. But not as much as jeromus. But I can certainly start to see ties between these two, and ties to both of them to alexithymia.

I'm going to do another read through tonight to be sure I'm not tunneling on a pet theory.

[Lacey]

Vi and VP Baltar. Could I get your analysis on the situation I brought up above? Both jeromus and Cirdua defending Alexithymia and jeromus excusing any connections between said players?

I know Vi just said she is getting a town read on Alexithymia, and I would appreciate her thoughts on the exchange I've highlighted.

[Lacey]

Am I the only one who gets really bad vibes from Lacey's most recent big post? Lacey is doing a good job of being one step behind other players' thoughts without adding much of anything new, as if she's just waiting to see what will catch on before putting her support behind anything. I really don't like it.

What an odd thing to say, especially considering in this very post you also say:

This post from jeromus is setting off little bells in my head (note to self: remember to get head outfitted with bigger bells). The bulk of the post content-wise seems to be the stuff about his history with Alex and Cirdua, with the rest of it just an attempt to look like he's contributing - and failing spectacularly at it. Also interesting to note is that it only comments on votehopping and then goes on to say that votehopping isn't worth commenting on.

Which is, how did you put it? "one step behind other players' thoughts without adding much of anything new", as I've already made these points myself.

I find it hard to take your challenge that I haven't added anything new, when you go on to cite something which I added to the discussion. I do think I've done a good job of putting together a jeromus case, a case I am voting and am committed to, which is why I've been asking folks to weigh in, comment and if they feel so inclined, join me in voting jeromus.

Now was I step behind Cirdua? Most certainly. It's another lynch going on, which I didn't initially agree with. So I reread Cirdua and on a reread agree there is a potential case there, revolving around a similar (if less blatant) defense of Alexithymia as jeromus. While I may be a step behind on that case (and less committed, because jeromus has done a lot more apologizing for connections than Cirdua, which feels wrong), I don't see how you can say it is scummy to reread and try and decide if I think there is a case on someone, or if those making the case are the ones to look at more closely.

All that said, I'm getting a town read from you, I think you just need to reread folks. I'm liking your posts so far. You're at least willing to come out and take some strong positions, and put pressure where you think it is warranted.

[Lacey]

It's like I see Cirdua's posts, but all they say is

I'M SCUM

over and over again.

Quit dodging the issue and lynch/bus him. Nao.

We have some time still. Why the rush to lynch so quickly? While I agree Cirdua looks about as scummy as jeromus, I still want to hear both of them talk out their positions before lynching. And we still have some folks who are getting away with lurking. Any ideas on how to flush them out before the day ends?

[Lacey]

My thoughts on the current Cirdua lynch

There are two people voting me, yet you seem so sure about a lynch. With some imagination you could call it a bandwagon, but a lynch?

By "lynch" I mean "potential lynch" or if you prefer "lynch candidate".

[Lacey]

We have some time still. Why the rush to lynch so quickly?

Cirdua and jeromus have already had plenty of time to "talk out their positions" (Cirdua more than jeromus, as j has claimed V/LA).
At this point it seems like people are making excuses for not lynching obvious scum.

By "lurkers" you mean Col.Cat, d3x, and jason, right? The chance that the Day will actually end without any of them posting is fairly small.

Fair enough. Though this vote is subject to change depending on responses from Cirdua/jeromus. I'd also like you and VP Baltar to reconsider the jeromus lynch as my gut has him as scummier than Cirdua.

unvote.
vote:Cirdua

[Lacey]

I have a hard time buying this as there were multiple references to Alex and Haylen being the same person in the posts immediately after the slip. Also, this has little actual relevance. It's like you're adding in filler like this to make it look like you're contributing.

Go back and look at the case I assembled on jeromus, then look at the secondary case (to add to the exisiting one) I assembled on Cirdua, then tell me I'm not contributing. I thought multis were illegal so I was trying to softly ask if we had a problem developing, because it seemed to me we might.

You are aware that Scum can post content as well as Town, right? If your only reason to think I'm Town is that I've posted a few times with content, then you're either

very

naive or Scum.

You're posting more useful content than most other players and seem to be trying to scum hunt, although I believe you are guilty of tunneling. This is more than I can say for jeromus, cirdua, jasper, col cathart, alexithymia, and jason. You can't all be scum, so while you've been lurking to some degree, I like that you seem to be making an effort.

We get a lot of jabber about play style, then some really slimy posts about your "s" key being broken, when 8 minutes prior you had been posting with "s" just fine.

Can you translate this into a ScumTell for me, please? Otherwise, it's just more worthless filler.

File it under active lurking + gut. I don't like the sudden "Oh I lost a key, and now I'm going to emphasize it!", I don't know how to classify it other than it feels like a charade, and town shouldn't play that way.

I don't completely agree with the lynch yet, as I still want to hear more from jeromus in particular.

Did jeromus say something to change your mind? Did Cirdua? I would like some more info on your switch because it just reads fake and forced to me.

Neither did, which is why I said:

Fair enough.

Though this vote is subject to change depending on responses from Cirdua/jeromus. I'd also like you and VP Baltar to reconsider the jeromus lynch as my gut has him as scummier than Cirdua.

Honestly the only reason I like jeromus more for scum than Cirdua was gut. Town doesn't seem to like my case on jeromus, which bothers me a bit, but it looks clear we aren't going to get consensus on this. Cirdua looks scummy too, and a good bandwagon is important to draw out scum. Take jasper for instance, whose vote without any reasoning followed with appeasement and AtE begins to form a decent case on him.

I still feel better about jeromus than Cirdua, but consensus is important and my primary case on jeromus can admittedly be made just as strongly on Cirdua.

[Lacey]

Quick note. I'll be V/LA till sometime tomorrow evening. I may have access tonight at the airports, unless they charge for WiFi.

[Lacey]

Just checking in, will have my thoughts up tomorrow afternoon

It's a full day later than you said you would have your thoughts up. Please weigh in on the current situation.

[Lacey]

First off, hooray for airport wifi during an onerous layover.

Also, Laughing at the bolded after you got done calling me old.~ It's amazing how by site standard we're middle-aged.

What is middle-aged by site standards? I have the sinking suspicion I'd be considered an old spinster.

@Lacey
Why are you so willing to give up on your top suspect just to go with the general concensus?

A fair question. Because I've been trying for days, and several pages to get a lynch going on jeromus and it just isn't going to happen right now. But I am not giving up yet. I plan to revisit this when jeromus posts more, or after we make a lynch today.

General question to everyone, but with specific interest in Vi and VP Baltar (whom I see as the leaders of the Cirdua bandwagon).

I think we all agree on the scummyness of the latest few jasper posts. What are your feelings on the benefits of lynching Cirdua over jasper, or vice versa?

[Lacey]

@d3x: If someone can't tell the difference between game related content, and chatting between some of the active players, then I question their logical abilities, and usefulness in a game like mafia.

In the end, this is a game, and just like when I play Diplomacy or risk, I have more fun when other players are friendly and chatty. So while you might not like it, I'll continue to assume everyone else can ignore the chatty fun we're having if they feel so inclined.

Well, me and Sotty appear to be in our 20s... The "old people" invitational seems to have a cutoff age of 30...

That's what I was afraid of. I'm almost two years beyond the cutoff myself

Jasper's vote is likely to be scum-motivated, but more so if it turns out to be a bus. We won't know that until we lynch Cirdua. Plus, assuming the worst-of-the-worst-case scenario that both of them are Town, I think we would lose less by lynching Cirdua.

Is your implication here that you believe if Cirdua flips town, jasper is likely to also be town?

Right now Jasper is scummier to me than Cirdua probably because I am more familiar with Jasper having played lots of games with him. I could certainly lynch Cirdua today, he has done nothing helpful so far.

You say you are more familiar with Jasper, and consider him scummier. Would you like to lay out a more indepth case on Jasper?

In regards to your comment on Cirdua, this sounds like it would be a policy lynch for you. Would you agree with that assessment. Could you comment on why you would be willing to take a policy lynch over your main scum candidate?

So I'm reading that neither made posts that influenced your decision but both did post. Both even replied directly to you and you didn't followup with any questions, so I'm confused. What are you waiting to hear exactly?

I'm waiting to hear something that could potentially change my mind. Forgive me if I don't spell out to the potential scum precisely what I want to hear. But in general terms I am looking to enhance my read on them, and the other players who are taking sides in this and other cases.

Statements like this actually bother me more than a bit. I'm not saying that it's the case, but what if the Cirdua case is being pushed predominantly by Scum? You've said yourself that the lurkers can't all be Scum, what if none of them are? Again, I'm not saying that I believe this, but saying things like 'Town doesn't like my case' is very unsettling because it looks like a slip to me and it's really weak considering what I have said above.

Reread Vi and VP Baltar. They are town. And I'm not just on the Cirdua lynch because folks I think are town are, but because Cirdua has set off roughly the same warning buzzers as jeromus.

And really, what has Cirdua given us since the wagon started? Things like his latest post:

Also Cirdua, did you just say you were going to intentionally lurk before your V/LA? (Post 166)

No, I didn't say any such thing:

[1]Oh, and I'll be V/LA next week (going to Spain) [2]But seeing as how some people are really desperate to get me lynched as soon as possible (Vi and Lacey), [3]I might not make it 'till the end of the week.

[1]: I announce I'll be V/LA
[2]: I state the obvious by saying that some people want to see me dead
[3]: I say I'm likely to be lynched before I'm V/LA
I never said I was going to lurk before the V/LA

Cirdua isn't scum hunting. Cirdua isn't reading other players. Cirdua is just offering scummy apologies. Cirdua looks better and better as time goes on.

[Lacey]

The old people should totally form an AIM ring. We just need to stop playing with each other first so we can't meta while we meta. (Yo dawg, I heard

etc.

)

and I actually need to go get an AIM account since I keep bringing it up

gchat: Lacey.k
aim: prairielacey

[Lacey]

I remember somebody asking earlier why I had chosen those three players to do a PBPA on. Well, if you go to the mods OP, you will see they were the first names on his list xD

Am I the only one who is bothered by this?

[Lacey]

Heh. Lacey, that's how I always do PBPA's, because I'm Dyspraxic, I need to keep some logical order to things. So it's either player order or Alphabetical Order and if I go down the player list it helps me make sure I don't miss anyone.

Are you really suspicious of my PBPA system? :/

I need to read your meta more. Do you claim to do this as both Haylen and Alex?

[Lacey]

No matter what I'm going to say

, I probably screwed up so much already that it wouldn't help me. But when I flip town remember who were pushing for my lynch (before everyone did, that is). Maybe the only good thing that will come out of my lynch is a better chance at finding the filthy scum that jumped onto my wagon.

Cirdua doesn't even believe that

Well if nothing else, we're getting more posts to read some of the lurkers on. That is a good thing IMO. Though I just checked the rules and it is unclear. What happens at the deadline if we fail to achieve a majority for a lynch? It's unclear to me if this triggers a lynch of the plurality candidate, or nolynch, though I assume the former.

[Lacey]

I'm busy today which is annoying, so please excuse the brief post. I would like for there not to be a hammer on Cridua until we have the lurkers catch up. (Jasper, Jason off the top of my head.)

At what point do you feel it will be time to hammer? When that time comes, will you be voting Cirdua? Or do you expect someone else to place the final vote?

[Lacey]

To be clear I am not going to hammer until I think everyone who is lurking has had a chance to comment on recent going ons. I really want some Jasper content. There is still some questioning to be done on top of that so I am not feeling rushed to drop the hammer.

Definitely agree. I just wanted to make sure we knew whether there was a deadline to get a majority. Thanks to Zachrulez for clarifying.

We have two weeks to form that majority so there is plenty of time to continue questioning and trying to draw more information out of the lurkers for better reads.

[Lacey]

If you want content from people, ask them specifically what you want. Sitting around and waiting for people to freely contribute oodles of information has a tendency to not work.

So if everyone's going to stall, I'm going to go on hold for a while.

I'm honestly ready, hence my question to sotty7. It sounds like he is almost there but for a claim from Cirdua.

[Lacey]

V/LA for easter weekend. Happy Easter all!

[Lacey]

Thanks for the great vote towards my intelligence guys. I'm not an idiot. If I were mafia, I wouldn't have had to guess about the setup, as stated previously, I would have already known based on the size of the scum team.

@DRK - You state serial killers don't generally use guns. How sure are you of this? (I've never played in a game with a serial killer). Is vigilante a possibility? If so we need to have a talk with the vig, as d3x was pretty clearly a townie IMO.

I still like jeromus for scum, DRK, why didn't you support my proposal of jeromus for a lynch last turn? The case was just as good last turn.

The Jasper/Maemuki slot is pretty suspicious after yesterday. I'm not sure how to move forward on this, however, as the slot's been replaced and we can't expect Maemuki to account for Jaspers actions.

[Lacey]

Thanks for the great vote towards my intelligence guys. I'm not an idiot. If I were mafia, I wouldn't have had to guess about the setup, as stated previously, I would have already known based on the size of the scum team.

I disagree. Two scum means either an SK or a second scum team. Scum would be left guessing just as much as town. More importantly, whether or not there's another scum team actually has some relevance to scum, whereas town really shouldn't care early on.

Well we will just have to agree to disagree here. I have a game I could cite where a player made some good points for why town should care, but the game is ongoing, so no dice (the only game I've played in with two scum teams).

No way a pro-town vig killed Sotty.

Agreed, Sotty and d3x were obvtown.

As for jeromus, I thought Cirdua was a better lynch. Apparently, I was wrong about that. Now, I'm coming back to the jeromus case.

I'm not quite as sold on jaspter as others seem to be. I don't see why a townie can't bandwagon with no motivation but bacon. I can see why scum would be more likely to, but still...

I have issues with jasper, a townie can bandwagon, but reread jaspers responses when he was called on his actions.

I need to reread Day 1 tonight to decide on jeromus vs. jasper as my top candidate right now. My case on jeromus was largely similar to that on Cirdua, and Cirdua flipped town, so I think it warrants a reevaluation.

What made you think Cirdua was a better lynch? Can you outline why you felt Cirdua was scummier than Jeromus?

[Lacey]

Jeromus, my discussion of game setups is well documented in my wiki entry, and was discussed on Day 1. The discussion has already been had, which you would know if you were reading the game and scum hunting.

vote:jeromus

Just as scummy today as he was yesterday. Rereading yesterday I just find more reasons to put him on my list, and they're the same reasons why I'd put him on today. Jeromus is doing little real scum hunting, and is simply looking for policy votes, or accusations others have forwarded instead of finding his own.

I still like a jeromus/Alex scum team. Jeromus' policy vote yesterday had little to no chance of going through, so it was a safe way to distance himself from the player he defended earlier. Alex has been far too silent leading up to the cirdua lynch, and needs to post some content and an analysis of the situation soon.

[Lacey]

By well documented, you mean linked, correct? I don't find it suspicious that you're discussing the game setups, so much as your prose - I find it suspicious to be dropping such bombs as "I'm not an idiot".

Yes, linked. Read the games, form your own opinion.

And my comment was not AtE. It was appeal to common sense. Any scum player would know what set up we were playing with from Day 1 due to the size of their scum team. A scum team of 3 or 4 is too big for their to be two teams, as scum would make up 50%+ of the players. A scum team of 1 or 2 suggests multiple scum teams. And no, 1 scum team + serial killer is not, IMO, different from 2 scum teams. A serial killer is a scum team of one person.

It's an appeal to emotion right there, and that's what bothers me

Wait, wait, wait... AtE's bother you? What about:

Because - Last I checked, either the sarcasm tags aren't working, or "Gem" in every single one of its uses in his post justifying his vote on me was used with the heaviest of sarcasm, which offends me. *Cries*

Goddammit, I'm good at emphasising the wrong points in my posts...

Or making excuses for switching your focus.

I'd like to see everyone take positions on folks. I still like jeromus/Alex for scum. I could see Jasper/Maemuki as scum too, but I'd like to hear more from the slot first. Just a note Maemuki, it's tomorrow. Are your thoughts organized yet?

I like DRK's posts so far today. In line with yesterday.

VP Baltar, what are your thoughts? You were probably one of the two top leaders from yesterday along with Vi. But you've gone silent today. Your input would be appreciated.

Jason, can you give us some more substance? You've been lurking a lot, and in general not contributing to the discussion as much as you could. Vi's already accused you of coasting. Can you respond to the accusation and take strong positions on cases today?

Col.Cathart gets a big

FoS

from me for lurking here while active in other threads. (http://www.msutils.net/search.php?poste ... h_forum=-1)

Alexithymia/Haylen has also been very active under the Haylen alt (http://www.msutils.net/search.php?poste ... h_forum=-1), which adds to my growing suspicion of jeromus/Alexithymia.

[Lacey]

I'd like someone to check my work. But I believe with symmetric two scum teams, it puts us into potential lylo today.

Assumption: 5 town remaining, 2 scum Team A, 2 scum Team B.

Assume we mislynch today, we go into night with 4 town, 2 Scum A, 2 Scum B.

P(two town killed) = 0.41667
P(one town killed) = 0.47222 (includes the chance both scum target the same townie)
P(no town killed) = 0.11111

So there is a 88.888% chance of losing at least one town during the next night.

So a mislynch today sends us into tomorrow with:

3 town, 1 or 2 Scum A, 1 or 2 Scum B (P = 0.47222)
2 town, 2 Scum A, 2 Scum B (P = 0.41667)

The second case is clearly a town loss.
The first case I'm not sure on, based on the rules.

[Lacey]

Oh right, a third problem.

Most people

can only control the lynch (not the kills). Therefore, the best that

most people

can do is lynch scum... which is what

most people

would be trying to do anyway.

Do you claim to not be one of

most people

?

No claims being made. I'm just trying to get a handle on how dire the situation actually is, so I know how careful I ought to be. Cirdua not flipping scum surprised me. I've got a bad record my last few games with being correct on my scum cases, and I'm worried. This is also the first game I've played where I lived to see Day 2, so I'm shaky on my strategy from here on out.

[Lacey]

@Lacey - for someone shaky on strategy, you certainly seem confident in your jeromus read. What do you think about me calling the case on him poo poo?

I think it's still the best one I've seen, barring possibly the jasper/Maimuki slot, but I'm unwilling to commit there until we hear something from Maimuki. Note I'm not voting jeromus for the reasons DRK has outlined, but rather the reasons I outlined yesterday.

[Lacey]

I'm not completely up for doing the mass bandwagoning from yesterday, but it's not like Maemuki isn't elsewhere onsite.

Oh believe me, I know. I'm keeping tabs on lurker activity in other threads. Maemuki currently has the following activity for today, and the last two days:

Thursday - 6
Wednesday - 21
Tuesday - 40
Monday - 42

I'm cutting her some initial slack due to the fact she has to read 13 or so pages from this game. Replacing in can be daunting. But she is beginning to push the limits.

She is definitely more active on the site than our other lurkers.

Col.Cathart
Thursday - None yet
Wednesday - 2
Tuesday - 0
Monday - 4

Alexithymia/Haylen (All activity under the Haylen alt)
Thursday - None yet
Wednesday - 9
Tuesday - 2
Monday - 8

[Lacey]

EBWOP: "bandwagoning" should be "tubthumping"

What does tubthumping mean?

[Lacey]

I'm cutting her some initial slack due to the fact she has to read 13 or so pages from this game. Replacing in can be daunting. But she is beginning to push the limits.

13 pages should take no more than an hour or two to read even if you're taking notes.

Also, are you saying she had over 40 posts on the site Monday? Which threads were those. If it's true, I'm ready to lynch now.

Here is the evidence:
http://msutils.net/search.php?poster_na ... h_forum=-1

Please double check my counts before using them as evidence. I may be off by a post or so.

[Lacey]

EBWODP: Pages 3 and 4 have the posts for Monday.

[Lacey]

Ahm, guys? I have a life. Besides, I don't know where to start because the damn Cirdua wagon took pretty much all of D1. There's just too much...meh. :S

Not a valid defense. I would buy that life interfered if it were not for the fact that you've posted an absolutely obscene number of times in the last few days. Try again please.

[Lacey]

Counted, still not an excuse. I have a very busy life as well, but I don't think there is any way I could manage to have 40 posts a day on this website. Additionally, I asked you a simple question of whether or not you had read the game yet...not exactly the inquisition.

Besides, it's

much

easier to post on games that you're caught up on than posting a catch-up post, you know?

I have read the game. That doesn't mean that I know what's going on. (Before you ask me why, it's because my thoughts are all mixed up.)

The game isn't confusing. The play has been pretty simply by standards of many games I've been following. You ought to have some real opinions to give us except that you read everyone as neutral, and slightly town (but for the person with an early bandwagon, for which you offer no real reason, except calling him lurkerish. A point I'll note you don't make for Col.Cathart, despite the fact that your comment applies

EVEN MORE SO

to him.

unvote

vote:Maemuki

You didn't scum hunt in your game read, you, at best, town hunted. Combined with your slots play yesterday, I can find no excuse for such an active player to have so little opinion on the game at hand. It's time for you to be pressured into giving real answers and real opinions.

[Lacey]

Some specific questions for Maemuki:

Why is jeromus scummy but not Col.Cathart or Alexithymia? They have lurked far more than jeromus lately.

Who are your top scum suspects? Why?

What is your opinion of the Cirdua lynch yesterday?

[Lacey]

Additionally:

What do you think of your slot's (Jasper's) play yesterday?

[Lacey]

jason is obvious lurkerscum, Maemuki is obviously stalling (or at the very least using scumhunting tactics that don't work on a player who is notoriously scummy in general) while saying "she has a life" when what she really means is "I'm playing MSM4", Haylen is really obviously onsite and lurking casually through the game too.

I mean if we lynch from that pool and still lose this game I'll be liekwoa.

I'm not as convinced on jason yet, Jason has been lurking, but it is site wide. But Maemuki, Col.Cathart, and Alex/Haylen are looking pretty scummy to me. All have been active onsite, and idle in the thread. Jeromus is still on my list, but he is producing more content today, if not much better than his content from previous days.

Why isn't Col. Cathart on your scum list Vi? VP Baltar, what do you think of Col.Cathart lately?

Maemuki's "I have a life" comment raised my hackles too. Not sure what MSM4 means, but Maemuki's onsight activity is higher than mine right now, both in hours (look at the time stamps on her posts), lines, and post count, and yet I'm following the game. In the one game I replaced in on day 4 or 5, I was up to speed in under a day. Given that she's had a long time to catch up, is obviously active elsewhere on the site, and is stalling/being evasive here, I agree she is a good target.

Vi, you originally voted jeromus, why isn't he in your obvscum set?

My suspects, in order of most to least suspicious are:

1) Maemuki
2) Jeromus, a very close second.
3) Alexithymia
4) Col. Cathart.

[Lacey]

Also, why are you not voting?

I'd like to know this too Jason. Col.Cathart is at L-5. By refusing to vote him, you've given him no pressure at all. Putting him at L-4 isn't going to end the day. Put your vote somewhere and own it.

Why have you come up with no less than three reasons to be V/LA in this thread? I'm not even sure which one you are claiming is your major hinderance here.

Be careful here VP Baltar. The way I understand things V/LA is not something you are allowed to use for in game reasons as a plot. I feel this accusation you're making is bordering on unsportsmanlike conduct. Let's keep it civil and friendly, ok?

Enough of a case can be made against Jason on the basis of lazy scum hunting, flip-flopping, and an unwillingness to commit to a vote.

Hey scum team that jason isn't a part of, shoot him tonight. kthxbye.

Can you propose your scum teams then, and who you think is connected?

I'm thinking:

jeromus <--> Alex/Haylen
Maemuki <--> Col.Cathart

(Not to say I don't find Jaso suspicious, just less so than jeromus in aggregate).

Oh and just as an update, Maemuki posted 24 times yesterday in total.

[Lacey]

OK, as scum I throw my vote around jumping on the popular wagons piggy backing of others cases, as town though I like to ask questions and get responses first before committing to a vote. As I like to make sure my vote is going on the right person, as scum I don't care who gets lynched.

this is why I have not voted yet.

It's nonsense like this which makes me reconsider my scum list.

[Lacey]

Alexithymia/Haylen (All activity under the Haylen alt)
Thursday - None yet

Drayton Manor with Jordan, Battle Mage and Randomlunatic

Wednesday - 9
Tuesday - 2

Was out buying engagement ring, then Jordan took me out for dinner

Monday - 8

I have nothing to say about the randomness of my activity other than the fact I've been away for the past week with my fiance's family so my activity has been limited to modding stuff and MindScrew. I would be interested in seeing what my activity as Haylen on those days was though.

Oh...looked at the thing. Yep, the majority of it was refering to my modded games, mishmash games i got prodded in and newbie greeting (he seemed nervous!)

Care to give us content instead of just excuses?

[Lacey]

Hey scum team that jason isn't a part of, shoot him tonight. kthxbye.

Hmmm, if I am scum... why would you be asking for a night kill on me, instead of pushing my lynch

today

as scum.

Does not quite make sense does it?

Because Maemuki is scum on the other team. Try to keep up. I know it's hard when you're barely here, but it's a short game.

So, Mae gets lynched today, Scum team A is presumably at one member. They need to kill you then tonight to even out the numbers.

What makes you sure Maemuki and Jason are on opposing scum teams?

Jasons refusal to vote Maemuki, and insistence on the weaker (but still valid) case on Col.Cathart almost suggests Jason-Maemuki if you are certain Jason is scum (a fact of which I am slowly being convinced).

[Lacey]

ie. Stop Strawmanning.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

You've yet to contribute positively to the game Alexithymia, which is why so many of us have you on our scum list. And now all you do is give us excuses. You say you are rereading now. I for one, plan on holding you too that and will expect some cases and positions on the current cases. Personally I don't think we will get them.

[Lacey]

for the last time, I am not refusing to vote..... I am waiting to hear more from her, just like Col before placing a vote.

I am not willing to hammer someone who has not had the chance to respond yet.

[quote="Lacey]

Also, why are you not voting?

I'd like to know this too Jason. Col.Cathart is at L-5. By refusing to vote him, you've given him no pressure at all. Putting him at L-4 isn't going to end the day. Put your vote somewhere and own it. [/quote]

What part of this suggests hammering Maemuki?

[Lacey]

You've yet to contribute positively to the game Alexithymia

1. I now remember why I stopped using this account. I fucking HATE being called Alexithymia. For the love of cheeze and all things good, call me Alex. Alexithymia just winds me up.

Then why did you pick the name?

I resent the comment that I have not yet contributed positively to the game. Go and Iso me please.

Just did. I stand by my statement. Your ad hominem aside.

[Lacey]

Full post to come elsewhen (maybe) but the drama ITT is too pathetic even to warrant a snippy Advice Dog pic.

[Lacey]

Just a general question for the more experienced players. I've run into low levels of enthusiasm except from 2-3 players in nearly all of my games, with 50%+ of the players lurking. Is this normal? It's a let down.

[Lacey]

Hey Lacey, why do you attack me over jason's V/LA and then go on to say Haylen is making excuses with hers?

I'm not attacking you. I'm saying specifically that I feel if Jason were using V/LA as in game rule, it violates the trust given to players and the community with V/LA, and would qualify as unsportsmanlike conduct.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the V/LA policy, but if I am right, I feel claims of unsportsmanlike conduct should be handled by forwarded to the Mods, and not handled by players. Just my feelings on civility.

My attack on Haylen isn't that I dislike her excuses, but that she gives us nothing of value. Just excuses. The same can more or less be said of Jason. Neither has produced much content of quality or import.

Depends on the game really. I would say this is an abnormal amount of whiney/lurking in my experience.

Good to know, the level of disinterest in the games I've played in are starting to flag my enthusiasm for the site. :-/

[Lacey]

Maemuki posted 12 times yesterday, and yet not once here even with the pressure of a potential lynch.

I would like Maemuki to claim. Unless it is something amazing, I believe it is time to lynch.

[Lacey]

3. Lacey's OMG LOOK HOW MANY TIMES THESE PEOPLE POSTED thing is starting to get a bit annoying and I really don't think it's that useful.

4. I would prefer to get more of Maemuki's thoughts before a claim. I have no problem with rushing the day, but it seems like we're rushing the day just for the sake of lynching fast.

The reason you don't get the purpose of (3) is because you haven't sat down to think about why we haven't already received (4).

The point of how many times Maemuki has posted on the site, is to compare it to her activity in the thread. She is avoiding giving us her thoughts, and avoiding the game in general, despite many people having asked her for said thoughts.

[Lacey]

Just a note: I'll be V/LA from Thursday to Monday evening. Not that it seems it will matter as the game has kind of died.

I'll try to keep up when I can while on V/LA, and should be able to post some quick thoughts, etc.

[Lacey]

@Lacey: With the quality of scummers in here, reading through once gave me a big WTF. Explain how not being able to read the game is scummy.

Can you state this in a clearer way? I have no idea what you are asking.

Also with your vote count sitting at L-1, and the scummy behavior of the previous two players in your slot, you should be giving us a more thorough analysis and building better cases than you are.

[Lacey]

@Lacey: When you voted Mae, you quoted her post where she said she was having a hard time reading the game. You responded with "Nu-uh. This game is easy." Besides a difference of opinion with Mae, do you think that her having a hard time reading could have contributed to her not posting?

Requires too much speculation as to Mae's motives. As I'm not psychic I can't comment. But to say the game is a hard read would be disingenuous.

To top it off, Alex stated in post 49 that it was for reactions and then when I asked him to follow through, he repeats

why

he did it, instead of

what

conclusions he got out of it.

Your opinion on that?

Alex/Haylen has been pretty scummy from the get go. S/he is not scum hunting, and hasn't posted any substantial conclusions.

Combined with Her/his calling out sotty for being scum just proves Alex/Haylen isn't reading the game. So I'm pretty comfortable with my scum read of him/her. I'd be in favor of an Alex/Haylen lynch.

What concerns me though is how quickly you're trying to shift position off of your slot. You're pointing a lot of fingers without addressing the fact that you've replaced into the scummiest slot in the game.

[Lacey]

@Lacey: Uhh, what exactly is it that you want me to do? I am not going to roll over and die. Sorry. The only way for me to "address this issue" is to find scum.

Oh I'd love you to find scum. But right now you're trying to coast on scum hunting by parroting recently suggested theories without adding new info yourself. My guess is you're hoping aggressive play will cause others to forget that you've yet to add an original case.

What I'd like you to do is read the game again, and come back with detailed cases against your suspects with some original evidence or ideas to add to the game.

[Lacey]

@Lacey: Uh, now your accusations are getting a little thin. How is what I brought up against Alex a "recently suggested theory"? I might be blind and need glasses, but I do not see where anyone else asked for Alex to follow up on his "lulz reactions". I also do not see how my line of questioning for jason is a "recently suggested theory".

You got lucky with Alex/Haylen. Your questioning of jason doesn't impress me. Read the game and give some original opinions. Keep in mind the rest of the players aren't going to let you blow off analysis either.

[Lacey]

I'm not sure if I should be bothered by Konowa coming in and having very similar suspicions to me (his first, second, and fourth picks are the same people with the same major reasons; my third pick was him) or if I should be feeling good about myself now. It does bother me that, of the 8 other players left, he expresses suspicion of 6 of them in his first post (he doesn't express suspicion of me or CC (possible buddying to me?)). Also, I don't like how loud his first post with content is, for lack of a better word. It's worded in a way you would expect a post to be worded from someone more or less leading the town...except he's at L-1 and he's flailing at everyone. Basically, it looks like an attempt to come out strong and lead us on an assault against pretty much anyone but himself.

This was my point where I asked Konowa to give us some real scum hunting and take some positions for novel reasons. As you note, and I pointed out, all of Konowa's points so far are just parroting. I agree his aggressive behavior seems scummy too. He doesn't like where town is going right now and is trying to control the discussion while barely addressing the fact that he is at L-1.

And I still don't like the points he tried to make by fiat on Jason. He simply called them illogical without addressing why. IMO he is trying to build an air of authority and use it as a defense of sorts.

While I would disagree with Jason in general (mafia DO hammer, putting someone at L-1 isn't necessarily scummy, and can be a great way to get information, and bait scum), I don't find Jason's logic scummy, nor do I find it bad when applied to Col.Cathart in particular. Cathart is a shrewd player with a good grasp of strategy, and I think Jason's points warrant a deeper look.

Col.Cathart is still low on my scum list however, and I think his partner Jasper/Maemuki/Konowa should go first, followed by Alex/Haylen or Jeromus.

[Lacey]

Looking over vote counts VP and DRK both being on all three of the large D1 wagons is making me think. Votecounts 1, 2, and final for reference.

What does it make you think? Do you find those wagons scummy? Why or why not?

[Lacey]

Maemukonowasper
jason
+
Alexithaylen
jeromus

Can you explain why jason makes your list with Konowa over Col.Cathart? I've not been getting a particularly town read from either Col or Jason, but Konowa's "suspect everyone but Col" has tipped me more in Col's favor for that scum slot, and he was already my prime suspect between jason and col.

Agree completely on Alex/Haylen and Jeromus pairing, as I have since beginning of day 1.

[Lacey]

Agree with DRK's nolynch option. It seems the only sensible option.

I am against a mass claim, however. If we are to go nolynch today, a mass claim makes no sense. It would alert scum as to the remaining roles, with no benefit for us. I will agree with a mass claim only after scum are given another night to cross kill. No use flagging power town for scum, to dissuade them from the cross kill.

[Lacey]

Lacey: Emphasis on 'If we'.

Sorry if it wasn't clear in my last post, but I suggested either Massclaim or no lynch. Combining them makes little sense to me.

Ah, ok. I was a bit confused then. My suggestion is no lynch. A lynch today seems to serve only as king maker for the scum teams, something I am not eager to do.

[Lacey]

Guys, scum don't want to kill town tonight. It doesn't matter if we out any power roles. Any scum team that doesn't hit scum will be at a huge disadvantage. Even town PRs are outed, it would be stupid for scum to go after them.

I vote for mass claim + no lynch.

You are counting on:

A) Scum being smart about this, they killed two obvtown players last night despite the fact that not doing so would have secured a win under two scum teams.
B) The power roles may be significant.

Also it may be the case that scum can coordinate. Last nights kills were surprising. Scum beheaded town by taking out both of our top investigators. Maybe it happened by chance, but I'm not going to bet the entire game on it.

If are to go nolynch, and I think we should, I'd rather scum face the night with as little information as possible.

[Lacey]

Those are some convincing arguments CC. I'm going to run the numbers and think about this.

[Lacey]

I'm still against the idea of a mass claim. I will not mass claim unless there is a protector role willing to back me up.

[Lacey]

I don't see an Alex/Col connection. So I'm willing to believe one of you is town (probably Col, as Alex has been scummy as all get out all game). Which means jeromus, who has been my pick from scum since day one, is probably on the opposite team as Alex.

vote: jeromus

Scum teams, keep in mind that tonight you MUST cross kill, you should have listened to Vi/VP last night.

[Lacey]

Why are they so complicated lol

We're far less complicated than your half sweetie At least our actions are governed by reason and logic

But yes, Jeromus has been scummy from day one, and has only smelled worse as time goes on. I should have stuck to my guns both times I pushed for his lynch, but it's taken two wild goose chases to get folks to listen.

[Lacey]

Great game Zach, thanks for running it so well, and congratulations to the Mafia team for winning. I honestly picked CC because after Cirdua, Jasper/Maemuki, and Jeromus all flipped town, I didn't trust my reads anymore and went for the one I wouldn't have thought was scum.

Out of curiosity to the other scum team, was your kill of VP Baltar intended to be a cross-kill as our kill of Vi was?

I think the big take away from here is that town needs to play more pro-town. No one can fault CC, Vi or VP Baltar, but I honestly believed Cirdua, Jasper/Maemuki and Jeromus were scum.

And my comments on Day 1 about the game were legitimately what I would have said if I were town. I had no idea how to read a game like this, and in the only other large, non-standard game I played in I was advised to take the two scum teams into account, as then scum would be scum hunting too, which eliminates a big portion of how many folks read the game. So it may have been a bad thing to say, but I can honestly say I would have brought it up if I had been town, given the game I played in prior to this one.

[Lacey]

My apologies

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/Y5JaqV6zrNai

[Lacey]

Out of curiosity to the other scum team, was your kill of VP Baltar intended to be a cross-kill as our kill of Vi was?

Well Cirdua and Jasper/Maemuki were so obvscum, when they flipped town, it felt like it was time to see what the leaders on their bandwagon was aligned. Never figured we and the other scum team would shoot you both :-/