Mini 946 The new Zachtown (Game Over!)

[Vi]

I hope this didn't get lost over the last page.

[Cirdua]

Hey all, sorry for the short absence but my graphics card burned out and I had to wait 'till today to get a new one.

...get frustrated...

A poor choice of words on my part indeed, I was in a bit of a hurry making that post. What I meant to say was that while Alex had invited me to this game to show me how much he had improved, he did exactly the same as always (weird things not making sense, like self-voting). Which disappointed me at the moment. But that seems to be over now, just clearing things up.

Btw, nice picture Vi, you make one of these for everyone or just for me ?

[Sotty7]

You didn't really answer either of my questions though - are the people on the wagon more likely to be scum?

Not in my opinion. It's a null tell for me on both sides. The wagon seems a good way to flush out scum, so being on it could be seen as slightly town in scenario (A), but in scenario (B) it's a null tell as scum would also have an incentive to scum hunt.

So pushing a player up to lynch -2 on page one is a null tell? I'm not really sure how that works. Scum should always be scum hunting. The trick is making it look legitimate. Are you saying that the people that pushed Alex's wagon up get town points for doing so?

Lacey v Alex on page 3 is won by Lacey quite handily. Improves my impression of Lacey quite a bit.

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Admittedly no benefit to the town, but no harm to it either! Which is why my vote shall remain on Sotty, primarily because now I'm actually finger-waggling with that vote. I don't believe that Alex voting for himself was a tell in any way, and it was odd to start that wagon.

Odd how? You answered you own question

it doesn't help the town

. Also what about VP and DRK who both seemed to also vote Alex for self voting?

How many games have you played with Alex/Haylen?

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I have no problems with a bandwagon, usually, to pressure someone. But bringing gsomeone to L-2 in RVS while that someone has only made two posts yet ! Ok, it's unlikely scum are gonna jump this wagon now to lynch (that'd be a stupid giveaway), it's still a bit too close to my liking.

What do you think of the four people on the wagon?

= = = = =

People on Alex Wagon

Sotty
Balter
DRK
CC

Noted for later. Thank you for the reactions guys.

This post is pointless. You have only commented on one person on your page wagon so far (me) what about the others and their reactions?

I meant Vi. Vi's votehopping.

I got you're names mixed up.

I'm not suspicious of you, I'm suspicious of Vi.

I'm not active lurking, I'm trying to write the flavor for my game. So much to catch up on

First explain to me why vote hopping is scummy, then tell me how many times you have played with Vi.

Why are you doing PBPA's on page four? Also what made you pick those three players to do it on? Though your points on Jasper are somewhat moving.

I'd like it if we checked our egos at the door if possible. Makes for a more enjoyable game for all. (I'm talking about posts 96 though 108). So yeah I agree with d3x here.


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To be honest, I don't really read much into self votes in RVS I have seen quite a few of them... the wagon that formed though was very interesting as to how quick it went.

Why is that interesting? What is your opinion on said wagon and the people on it?

= = = = =

So because I had a post letting Vi know I was glad to be playing in a game with her? That before I joined this site, Zach and sotty, who brought me here to MS... that Zach had me read the game sotty replaced into against Vi... you think I am buddying up to her? Talk about reaching... I mean, people talked on page 1 about playing in this game with this game with this person or that person... I waited until Vi posted to mention it.

Your vote has no case behind it... and what you call a case Alex, is weak.

While I agree that the buddying thing is weak you didn't respond to the rest of her points as in twisting Lacey's words. I also don't see a lot of scum hunting from you. Her vote isn't bad in my opinion.

= = = = =

Okay... Up to date.

Despite my dislike of Alex's play style I am leaning town for him simply because of Haylen's meta to lurk like a mofo as scum. I also actually like her Jasper vote.

My opinion of jeromus is in flux. I can almost understand the defense of Alex but I am going to with hold my judgment until he answers my questions. (I saw the v/la notice and I hope he isn't replaced)

I noticed that Vi did help facilitate both Lacey talking about the set up and Alex/haylen's little ego rant. Not sure what to make of that. I do agree with her push on Cirdua, someone who even now, is very non committal.

Lacey's pushing of Alex feels genuine to me and like some good old fashioned scum hunting. Leaning town.

The Col, d3x and VP all feel very samey to me. VP slightly above these in the neutral category. Gonna need to see more from CC to decide if VP is on the right track or not. d3x seemed to over react to being labeled a lurker.

I really like DTK's first real post of the game. His points about Lacey and her delayed reaction to jeromus are very good and I agree with pretty much everything he said here. So more please.

Jason needs to catch up

Unvote, Vote: Jasper

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Cirdua

I'm a vegetarian and haven't even read the last page, but:

A poor choice of words on my part indeed

is apologetic scum.


Catching up now

[VP Baltar]

Wht don't you say it to her face. I'm very sure she would much prefer that.

Well, I'm not going to track you down to tell you how I feel about your play in general. You asked my opinion as your alt and I gave it. I have a feeling this discussion isn't going to be productive at all, however, so if you still want to talk about it after the game we can.

Would you like to know why you people want me lynched? Here you go:

Vi won her scummies. Balter just missed out on his. But why did they get nommed? Because they conform to the set playstyle of the site well and they make it work for them.

What? When did anyone say they wanted you lynched and why do you think scummies nominations have anything to do with that anyhow? This is ridiculous.

I'm not entirely sure, lol. The players in the game. The whole of MS. Everyone who votes players for controversiality. I just completely lost control of my emotions. It's been a rough few weeks, relating to my V/LA message in my sig.

115 by d3x is good posting.

Yes, he is online. And he desperately needs a day away from MS for personal reasons. Don't expect a game-relevant post today. Good day, sir.

So you're worried about being called out as lurking and you stopped in here to say essentially that even though you desperately need a break? Why bother?

I am leaning town for him simply because of Haylen's meta to lurk like a mofo as scum.

You must have missed the declared V/LA. Also, Haylen lurks regardless of alignment.

The Col, d3x and VP all feel very samey to me.

You see my play thus far in this game as comparable to Col Cat? Please elaborate.


My vote is on scum. Thread needs more lynching.

[Sotty7]

Well when I say you are "samey" I basically mean I haven't been able to form solid opinions on any of you at this point. I want to put you in the town category because you're posting lots and for being VP, but I can't justfy that right now. So you get clumped in with d3x and CC until I can sort you out.

As for Haylen's meta, fair enough. But do you have a meta game of her as active scum?

[Lacey]

Can someone explain to me what is going on with Alexithymia and Haylen? Are they the same person? One claims to be female, the other claims to be male... and I thought multi's were against the rules. What vital piece of information am I missing here

I'm not sure why you think d3x is Town, but I have a guess - I just don't agree with it.

I was leaning town as d3x seemed to step up and post some content. I'm not seeing much since then, however. Right now I am trying to assess who is actually playing to hunt, and who is making noise, or holding back.

@jeromus:

I am liking you less and less, you've just posted some more information about supposed friendships and other nonsense. How about taking a position on some of the lynches underway. What do you think of Cirdua? What do you think of me?

@Alexithymia:

I really don't like the way your posts feel so more. We get a lot of jabber about play style, then some really slimy posts about your "s" key being broken, when 8 minutes prior you had been posting with "s" just fine. I don't know what you think this is doing. Making noise? Trying to look endearing? You still haven't made a case for your suspicion of vote hopping. I give you one more post to do so, until I decide you're trying to ignore the inconvenient fact that you have no case here, and waiting for it to go away.

So pushing a player up to lynch -2 on page one is a null tell? I'm not really sure how that works. Scum should always be scum hunting. The trick is making it look legitimate. Are you saying that the people that pushed Alex's wagon up get town points for doing so?

Null tell means they get no "points" either way, though just for reference, I hate the idea of points. I just see it as a legitimate way to get out of RVS by putting some pressure and forcing people to take sides. The only one I am beginning to count it against is Col Cathart. His flippant rejection of the "Fong Gambit" along with the little show he put on of saying "What is it? Looking it up...", I don't like it. Although I dislike it.

I also don't like that Col Cathart hasn't posted much more than defense. I'd like to see him come out and take positions on the current lynch candidates. Specifically, Col. Cathart, can you comment on your opinions of the following lynch candidates, Cirdua, Me, jeromus, and Alexithymia?

My thoughts on the current Cirdua lynch:

I don't completely agree with the lynch yet, as I still want to hear more from jeromus in particular. But here are some things I don't like about Cirdua:

Has someone read the game flavor? It says we're actually all scum right? So no matter who we lynch, we'll kill scum!

I've gone back and read in ISO, and now I'm reading this initially dismissed line, and I just don't like the way it dismisses mislynches as if they're still a good thing. Maybe it's just flavor, but I don't like this kind of "we're all scum!" mentality. Feels wrong.

Also the following bothers me:

Oh, I see Cirdua is already misrepping me

Just like old times eh

After accusing jermous of trying to distract town from scum hunting, responding to a claim of misrepresenting someone without backing up the claim bothers me. Maybe the original accusation was made jokingly... I can't tell. It bothers me on a gut level.

So voted oneself means one's scum? Last game I played with Alex, he voted himself too, but wasn't scum. I agree though, self-voting certainly doesn't help the town.
But what I'm having most trouble with is that the wagon formed awfully quickly, especially given the lack of response on Alex's behalf. Any scum on the wagon trying to lynch a less-active player before he can defend himself?

This post bothers me too. In my experience early bandwagons almost never carry over to a full blown lynch, so it feels needlessly defensive. And then we have the following post from jeromus:

There's not even extensive history between Cird, Alex and I...Just intensive. Basically, Cirdua scum-pwned us both, having Alex mislynched and then was on the way to victory when our mod left us - As a result, Alex declared a vendetta against Cirdua, and I just felt like tagging along in this game.

Which seems to be trying to cover over the strange defensiveness we're getting from jeromus-cirdua on alexithymia. Especially since the defensiveness of cirdua on alexithymia doesn't feel like it's coming from a vendetta relationship to me.

Having written all of that, and looking more closely at cirdua, I think I like cirdua for scum more than col cathart right now. But not as much as jeromus. But I can certainly start to see ties between these two, and ties to both of them to alexithymia.

I'm going to do another read through tonight to be sure I'm not tunneling on a pet theory.

[VP Baltar]

As for Haylen's meta, fair enough. But do you have a meta game of her as active scum?

No, certainly not. I think you gave an accurate assessment. I was simply pointing out that she lurks as either alignment, so it's not really a reliable scumtell.

Can someone explain to me what is going on with Alexithymia and Haylen? Are they the same person? One claims to be female, the other claims to be male... and I thought multi's were against the rules.

They are the same person. Alternative accounts (alts) are not against the site rules at all. Lots of people have them as a way of trying out new playstyles, escaping their meta prison, or generally trolling. I guess those purposes are generally defeated when your alt is outted, but oh well.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, I should add that alts are only violating site rules if you attempt to play in the same game with multiple accounts. (unless it's a Tar game, then anything goes)

[Sotty7]

Can someone explain to me what is going on with Alexithymia and Haylen? Are they the same person? One claims to be female, the other claims to be male... and I thought multi's were against the rules. What vital piece of information am I missing here

Haylen and Alex are the same person, Alex being Haylen's alt(ernate) account. Players like to have alts so they don't get bogged down by their meta. Not sure why Haylen would have an alt that follows the same game play style as her main and then proceed to out the alt. But that is a discussion for post game.

Multi's are against that rules if you are running them in the same game. That's not the case here.

VP, what made you abandon the double scum wagon mania?

[Sotty7]

Oh dude, VP ninj'ed me. I should really stop letting myself be distracted by facebook Tetris...

[VP Baltar]

lol, at line for line ninja

In terms of DSWM!, it wasn't manic enough for me. Plus Ciruda upped the scumminess ratio majorly with that apology. That's a huge noob scum tell.

[Vi]

I noticed that Vi did help facilitate both Lacey talking about the set up and Alex/haylen's little ego rant. Not sure what to make of that.

Yes I did. In Haylen's case, I did that for two reasons:
*Letting Haylen explode on the topic all at once versus letting the hard feelings stick around, ideally keeping her from being spiteful until like D2 or something
*Hopefully showing that Haylen didn't have ill intent with what she was doing at the beginning of the game

In Lacey's case I did it because I got the impression that she really didn't understand what I/we were saying.

In both cases I did it because I had a Town read on each of them at the time (and still do).

Your vote is terrible, and not just because it was explained very poorly.

No bacon for you.

But do you have a meta game of

[Haylen]

as active scum?

Both of us do, unless my memory of Zachtown is completely flawed.

[Lacey]

Vi and VP Baltar. Could I get your analysis on the situation I brought up above? Both jeromus and Cirdua defending Alexithymia and jeromus excusing any connections between said players?

I know Vi just said she is getting a town read on Alexithymia, and I would appreciate her thoughts on the exchange I've highlighted.

[Vi]

I put zero trust in associative tells, simply because I don't think I've ever seen them work.
With that said, of course you see ties between the three of them. They all claimed outright to have known each other from a previous game.

You might want to be more concerned with how jeromus has posted fluff and an immediate defense of Alex's random vote, and really nothing else of substance.
It's still more than what Cirdua has posted though.

[VP Baltar]

Vi and VP Baltar. Could I get your analysis on the situation I brought up above? Both jeromus and Cirdua defending Alexithymia and jeromus excusing any connections between said players?

I know Vi just said she is getting a town read on Alexithymia, and I would appreciate her thoughts on the exchange I've highlighted.

You're searching too big for Day 1. The goal of the first day is to lynch ONE scum. Don't even worry about who may be who's partner until you have one in the bag. I'm sure people could say Vi and I are buddying because we have similar scum reads at this point, but the reality is that we just play in tandem like that early until we (she) get(s) a scum read on one another (me).

After you have lynched a scum, then you can definitively look back and see if you can find any reasonable connections.

[Vi]

I'm sure people could say Vi and I are buddying because we have similar scum reads at this point, but the reality is that we just play in tandem like that early until we (she) get(s) a scum read on one another (me).

Hey, you were the one who tried to get the jump on me last time <.<

[VP Baltar]

I'm sure people could say Vi and I are buddying because we have similar scum reads at this point, but the reality is that we just play in tandem like that early until we (she) get(s) a scum read on one another (me).

Hey, you were the one who tried to get the jump on me last time <.<

-___-

And we saw how that worked out.

[Sotty7]

Your vote is terrible, and not just because it was explained very poorly.

No bacon for you.

That's cool, I don't like bacon.

...Oh but you want me to explain my Jasper vote some more? I know he can do better that what he has offered up so far. My vote is because all I am seeing from him is defensiviness and a poorly reasoned attack on Lacey. Want more awesome asap because he has done nothing so far.

But do you have a meta game of

[Haylen]

as active scum?

Both of us do, unless my memory of Zachtown is completely flawed.

Haylen was under heavy attack for lurking in Zachtown. So yeah, you must be getting old.

[Vi]

That's cool, I don't like bacon.

*dramatic chords*

But do you have a meta game of

[Haylen]

as active scum?

Both of us do, unless my memory of Zachtown is completely flawed.

Haylen was under heavy attack for lurking in Zachtown. So yeah, you must be getting old.

I stopped counting at 21

--

It's not a Cirdua vote, but I can live with what you have.

[DeathRowKitty]

So first off, why did I talk about the game setup? I know folks aren't too fond of it for some reason, but check out my games on my wiki page. I always do it.

Will do.

This post from jeromus is setting off little bells in my head (note to self: remember to get head outfitted with bigger bells). The bulk of the post content-wise seems to be the stuff about his history with Alex and Cirdua, with the rest of it just an attempt to look like he's contributing - and failing spectacularly at it. Also interesting to note is that it only comments on votehopping and then goes on to say that votehopping isn't worth commenting on.

Alex is prob-town at this point. I spent a few hours in a recent game reading her meta (I was scum so I'm not sure exactly why I bothered >.<) and this looks a lot less like scum-Haylen, who tends to be very much more detached from games, than town-Haylen, who at least puts in an effort to be a part of the game. (I don't know about SK-Haylen, but that's not something to worry about right now.) That said, his PBPA was pretty much useless.

Uhhh....@Alex
Would you prefer "he" or "she"? I just realized I used different ones depending on whether I was referring to you as Alex or Haylen...

[

insert useful commentary on discussion of Haylen here

]

*site issues happen, I forget about this post for several hours* Oops...

Am I the only one who gets really bad vibes from Lacey's most recent big post? Lacey is doing a good job of being one step behind other players' thoughts without adding much of anything new, as if she's just waiting to see what will catch on before putting her support behind anything. I really don't like it.

I have a gut read on VP as scum, but nothing solid. I'll have to look back at him to see if I can find something more quantifiable.

Also, don't ask how, but I've somehow managed to forget what I think of...everyone who isn't active. Yes, several hours is enough to make me forget. I blame the internet. I guess I'll go reread the game >.<

I also want to read one or two of Lacey's games to get a feeling of her town-play. Until then, I find her to be the scummiest player in this game.

[Lacey]

Am I the only one who gets really bad vibes from Lacey's most recent big post? Lacey is doing a good job of being one step behind other players' thoughts without adding much of anything new, as if she's just waiting to see what will catch on before putting her support behind anything. I really don't like it.

What an odd thing to say, especially considering in this very post you also say:

This post from jeromus is setting off little bells in my head (note to self: remember to get head outfitted with bigger bells). The bulk of the post content-wise seems to be the stuff about his history with Alex and Cirdua, with the rest of it just an attempt to look like he's contributing - and failing spectacularly at it. Also interesting to note is that it only comments on votehopping and then goes on to say that votehopping isn't worth commenting on.

Which is, how did you put it? "one step behind other players' thoughts without adding much of anything new", as I've already made these points myself.

I find it hard to take your challenge that I haven't added anything new, when you go on to cite something which I added to the discussion. I do think I've done a good job of putting together a jeromus case, a case I am voting and am committed to, which is why I've been asking folks to weigh in, comment and if they feel so inclined, join me in voting jeromus.

Now was I step behind Cirdua? Most certainly. It's another lynch going on, which I didn't initially agree with. So I reread Cirdua and on a reread agree there is a potential case there, revolving around a similar (if less blatant) defense of Alexithymia as jeromus. While I may be a step behind on that case (and less committed, because jeromus has done a lot more apologizing for connections than Cirdua, which feels wrong), I don't see how you can say it is scummy to reread and try and decide if I think there is a case on someone, or if those making the case are the ones to look at more closely.

All that said, I'm getting a town read from you, I think you just need to reread folks. I'm liking your posts so far. You're at least willing to come out and take some strong positions, and put pressure where you think it is warranted.

[jeromus]

I apologise - I have real life stuff going on and I am, for the most part, scanning posts for my name and answering questions asked of me - And the point of my post on votehopping was to SAY that I think nothing of votehopping. It bothers me a little that Alex felt the need to point it out, as if it were a tell, which I disagree with. Those are my thoughts, oh mighty question mark .

@Lacey - I think that you write far too much text into each post. That isn't valid criticism in terms of anything but my recent lack of activity. You ask me what I think of Cirdua's play? I am unsure. In our game together, I found him to be an incredibly active player, and even though he was, ultimately, scum; I found him to be a relatively pro-town player. I am unsure, however, as to the validity of the inverse of this.
Alex - In that same game, Alex played atypically and Cirdua got him/her/it/Idunno mislynched D-1. I bring this up to emphasise - I'm getting the vibe I got with Cirdua in that game from you, Lacey...Nothing to back that up, but my gut says this. I've not really read up on much of Alex's other games, even as Alex's alt, and so a Meta is hard to come by currently. I find Alex's playstyle odd and hard to judge.

Scrolling up, just answering idle questions - I've been in a single game with Alex, the same game with Cirdua. This is why I disliked the term extensive when describing our history. I'll not deny that it's changing my play - And I hope that stops pretty soon - But I disagreed with the word.

Might be a post to follow this one up - Finally have a good stock of spare time with which I can reread this thread.

[jeromus]

Okay - Just read through page 5...Might I quote your "Alexithymia" wiki?

Things I have learnt from my first game:
Don't take it personally.
Be careful what you say, it could be perceived as scummy.

Lessons clearly wasted. There there.

And - I will be 4 days away, not a week - And this absence will begin in 3 days.

[Vi]

jeromus. Who is scum.

DRK. Opinion on Cirdua.