Mini 946 The new Zachtown (Game Over!)

[Sotty7]

Okay I have just watched season one I thought you were talking of something else down the line Lacey, so I forgive you. But enough Battlestar talk...

So, I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: Sotty

Only SCUM would get so defensive over spoilers! That happened in the very first episode! Such inconsistency is a definite tell.

In the context of this sentence I don't think you know what inconsistency means.

Right now I am happy with the Alex wagon. Voting for yourself doesn't help anyone and the graph was pointless. I stand by my initial call of diescumdie.

[Lacey]

I'm pretty sure the game is Mafia, at least.

With 12 players it seems likely we're either up against (A) one large mafia, or (B) two scum groups. The last time Zachrulez ran a Zachtown game the answer was the former, a large mafia:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1250

Determining which hole we're in is, in my opinion, important to our strategy and scum hunting.

You didn't really answer either of my questions though - are the people on the wagon more likely to be scum?

Not in my opinion. It's a null tell for me on both sides. The wagon seems a good way to flush out scum, so being on it could be seen as slightly town in scenario (A), but in scenario (B) it's a null tell as scum would also have an incentive to scum hunt.

Oh right, before I forget. What's it like to be scum?

My only scum experience was as a replacement during lylo, so I can't answer your question very well, except to say I dislike being the bad guys.

But this gives us a new and better question to pose to everyone:

Which do you prefer, town or scum? Why?

Personally I prefer town. I enjoy being one of the good guys, and I rather detest lying. Being town makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

[Vi]

I'm pretty sure the game is Mafia, at least.

With 12 players it seems likely we're either up against (A) one large mafia, or (B) two scum groups. The last time Zachrulez ran a Zachtown game the answer was the former, a large mafia:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1250

Determining which hole we're in is, in my opinion, important to our strategy and scum hunting.

Not on Day 1.
There is zero reason for Town to care about that on Day 1, before any kills or flips. To contrast, caring about that sort of thing is one of the first orders of business for scum.

Unvote: jeromus
Vote: Lacey

(L-6)

You didn't really answer either of my questions though - are the people on the wagon more likely to be scum?

Not in my opinion. It's a null tell for me on both sides. The wagon seems a good way to flush out scum, so being on it could be seen as slightly town in scenario (A), but in scenario (B) it's a null tell as

scum would also have an incentive to scum hunt

.

Not if there's one scum group. Oh wait.

---

I can't answer the last question too well. I'm never scum.

[Lacey]

Not on Day 1.
There is zero reason for Town to care about that on Day 1, before any kills or flips. To contrast, caring about that sort of thing is one of the first orders of business for scum.

Care to explain this position? I'd think it would be the exact opposite. A scum group would already know as they know how many scum players there are.

If you're in a group of four scum, then obviously there is one scum group, otherwise scum would outnumber town.

If you're in a group of three scum, then obviously there is one scum group, otherwise scum would be equal to town.

If you're in a group of two scum, then there are probably two scum groups, otherwise scum would be at an extreme disadvantage.

We however, have zero information, unless part of a mason pair. So it seems this question is one scum would want to keep hushed up, and town would like to shed light on, which seems the opposite of what you suggest.

Not if there's one scum group. Oh wait.

Which is what I said in my (A) case. Are you just skimming posts?

I can't answer the last question too well. I'm never scum.

You've never been scum in any of your games? I thought you were a rather experienced player?

[Vi]

Not on Day 1.
There is zero reason for Town to care about that on Day 1, before any kills or flips. To contrast, caring about that sort of thing is one of the first orders of business for scum.

Care to explain this position? I'd think it would be the exact opposite. A scum group would already know as they know how many scum players there are.

If you're in a group of four scum, then obviously there is one scum group, otherwise scum would outnumber town.

If you're in a group of three scum, then obviously there is one scum group, otherwise scum would be equal to town.

If you're in a group of two scum, then there are probably two scum groups, otherwise scum would be at an extreme disadvantage.

This is where you're wrong. Two-person scumteams are not uncommon against Towns of limited power.

We however, have zero information, unless part of a mason pair. So it seems this question is one scum would want to keep hushed up, and town would like to shed light on, which seems the opposite of what you suggest.

And how do you propose we find out - without any flips or kills?

Not if there's one scum group. Oh wait.

Which is what I said in my (A) case. Are you just skimming posts?

Yes. I mean--wait--
In all seriousness I didn't make the connection. In any event, taking your (A) case, do you believe that on principle or because of the events surrounding this wagon?

[Lacey]

This is where you're wrong. Two-person scumteams are not uncommon against Towns of limited power.

Maybe I misunderstand the dynamics of a 2 scum vs. 10 town, but the setup seems to favor town over scum at first glance, especially with power roles.

And how do you propose we find out - without any flips or kills?

By analyzing potential scum pairs, examples of buddying, etc. Most of all we need to keep in mind the potential setups when building our cases and examining our evidence. For example, since (B) is a potential case, someone scum hunting vigorously needs to not be taken as a gold standard of being town. Vigilance will be key.

As always, the more information we are aware of, the better the chance of a town win.

Yes. I mean--wait--
In all seriousness I didn't make the connection. In any event, taking your (A) case, do you believe that on principle or because of the events surrounding this wagon?

More on principle. In some of my initial games I would have taken it as a scum tell, but my small experience has taught me that wagons tend to pressure and help town win.

This particular wagon is more likely just RVS. However it's already brought out some interesting facts.

1) Jeromus is defensive of Alexithymus, something to keep an eye on.
2) Our discussion, which is hopefully helping the rest of town take positions on our play.

You did avoid my last question by the way. Are you implying you've never played a game with a scum alignment?

[jeromus]

Wait...I'm being leaped upon because my random vote offered no relevant justification? Wow.

But reading down, it appears that it is not so.

And @BattlestarwatcherwhomIcannotremembertheusernameforatthispoint - I was saying that your claims of not knowing that he'd betrayed humanity to the cylons was inconsistent with the fact that, were you watching it for more than, say, 4 minutes, you'd already know that. I'll admit, inconsistent BARELY fits in that context.

My defense of Alex was also symptomatic of my uncanny ability to make silly game related remarks and be jumped upon for doing so. See mine and Alex's first game together...I pretend that that wasn't even me a lot of the time.

[jeromus]

Wait...I'm being leaped upon because my random vote offered no relevant justification? Wow.

But reading down, it appears that it is not so.

And @BattlestarwatcherwhomIcannotremembertheusernameforatthispoint - I was saying that your claims of not knowing that he'd betrayed humanity to the cylons was inconsistent with the fact that, were you watching it for more than, say, 4 minutes, you'd already know that. I'll admit, inconsistent BARELY fits in that context.

My defense of Alex was also symptomatic of my uncanny ability to make silly game related remarks and be jumped upon for doing so. See mine and Alex's first game together...I pretend that that wasn't even me a lot of the time. As a result, I have a habit of jumping to the defense of those as foolish as myself.

[Lacey]

Wait...I'm being leaped upon because my random vote offered no relevant justification? Wow.

But reading down, it appears that it is not so.

And @BattlestarwatcherwhomIcannotremembertheusernameforatthispoint - I was saying that your claims of not knowing that he'd betrayed humanity to the cylons was inconsistent with the fact that, were you watching it for more than, say, 4 minutes, you'd already know that. I'll admit, inconsistent BARELY fits in that context.

My defense of Alex was also symptomatic of my uncanny ability to make silly game related remarks and be jumped upon for doing so. See mine and Alex's first game together...I pretend that that wasn't even me a lot of the time.

Someone sounds a little uncomfortable in the spotlight.

unvote. Vote:jeromus

You didn't really answer my question. My big issue is with the way you defended him too. It feels to me like you were trying to distance yourself from Alexithymus, while at the same time defending him.

Calling him a "dumbass" like you did feels funny to me. I'd like a more thorough explanation of the following:

1) Why you jumped to his defense. Say it was a silly game related remark doesn't satisfy me. Walk us through your thought process.

2) Why did you decide to defend him the way you did?

[jeromus]

Gah, I thought that first one didn't post...And that was pre-the point of the sentence-being added in...

Also - It's not Alexithymus, but Alexithymia - Which is, in a nutshell, the psychological difficulty with identifying and describing one's emotions

[Zachrulez]

1st vote count of day 1:

Alexithymia - 5 (Alexithymia, Sotty7, VP Baltar, DeathRowKitty, Col.Cathart)
Jasper -1 (JasonT1981)
Vi - 1 (Jasper)
Sotty7 - 1 (Jeromus)
Lacey - 1 (Vi)
Jeromus - 1 (Lacey)

Not voting (d3x, Cirdua)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

If I made any mistakes, let me know asap.

DL is April 16 at 1pm CST.

[Cirdua]

Heya all, um, I seem to be a tittle late, sorry

Alex, your already at L-2? Self-voting? I thought you told me you had improved? :p

Oh, I see Jeromus is already trying to distract us from scumhunting by getting offtopic.

Has someone read the game flavor? It says we're actually all scum right? So no matter who we lynch, we'll kill scum!

[jeromus]

Oh, I see Cirdua is already misrepping me

And - Lacey, missed your post there. What you're witnessing there is friendship - I've been in contact with Alex, and hurling abuse at people is how my form of affection works.

My thought process went as follows. "Okay...So Alex has one vote, two vote, 3 vote...Woah, sure are a lot of votes. Man, I hate it when that happens..." I considered how I have a habit of saying stupid things that start bandwagons on me (Enjoy the noose, Alex - See my first game), and through this thing called empathy, I defended him.

And, the way I did? It's not terribly professional of me, but I don't pay my prose terribly much attention. I only phrased it so lightheartedly, I imagine, because of the general vibe of the RVS that I am so used to.

Also - Should probably establish that "Alex is a dumbass-DON'TJUDGEHIM" is something that I only subscribe to during the RVS. If Alex is scummy, "Dumbass" or not, then he is scummy. I was only commenting on his stupid first post that I considered to not benefit scum.


Which is my first point - How the heck is it valid to ride on an L-2 bandwagon based on a foolish comment in the RVS? And a foolish comment that, correct me if I'm wrong, has absolutely no benefit to the scum?

Admittedly no benefit to the town, but no harm to it either! Which is why my vote shall remain on Sotty, primarily because now I'm actually finger-waggling with that vote. I don't believe that Alex voting for himself was a tell in any way, and it was odd to start that wagon.

[jeromus]

Oh, I see Cirdua is already misrepping me

And - Lacey, missed your post there. What you're witnessing there is friendship - I've been in contact with Alex, and hurling abuse at people is how my form of affection works.

My thought process went as follows. "Okay...So Alex has one vote, two vote, 3 vote...Woah, sure are a lot of votes. Man, I hate it when that happens..." I considered how I have a habit of saying stupid things that start bandwagons on me (Enjoy the noose, Alex - See my first game), and through this thing called empathy, I defended him.

And, the way I did? It's not terribly professional of me, but I don't pay my prose terribly much attention. I only phrased it so lightheartedly, I imagine, because of the general vibe of the RVS that I am so used to.

Also - Should probably establish that "Alex is a dumbass-DON'TJUDGEHIM" is something that I only subscribe to during the RVS. If Alex is scummy, "Dumbass" or not, then he is scummy. I was only commenting on his stupid first post that I considered to not benefit scum.


Admittedly no benefit to the town, but no harm to it either! Which is why my vote shall remain on Sotty, primarily because now I'm actually finger-waggling with that vote. I don't believe that Alex voting for himself was a tell in any way, and it was odd to start that wagon.

[jeromus]

Gah, stupid double posting...

[Cirdua]

Oh, I see Cirdua is already misrepping me

Just like old times eh

Enjoy the noose, Alex

ah, memories

I have no problems with a bandwagon, usually, to pressure someone. But bringing gsomeone to L-2 in RVS while that someone has only made two posts yet ! Ok, it's unlikely scum are gonna jump this wagon now to lynch (that'd be a stupid giveaway), it's still a bit too close to my liking.
Anyway, I hope Alex gives a quick response (It'd be so stupid if he dies now, especially since he was the one that invited me for a "revenge"-game )

[Col.Cathart]

Cirdua and jeromus - You are both missing the point of the wagon, at least in my eyes. He voted himself. RVS or not, if he votes himself, then he's not town.

Normally, I would already start attacking Lacey for discussing the setup instead of proper scumhunt, but my meta on her already told me, she is capable of doing it as a town. So instead - Lacey, for Christ sake, stop discussing the setup. It's closed setup, YOU WON'T outguess mod, and therefore it's pointless to talk about it.

[Cirdua]

Cirdua and jeromus - You are both missing the point of the wagon, at least in my eyes. He voted himself. RVS or not, if he votes himself, then he's not town.

So voted oneself means one's scum? Last game I played with Alex, he voted himself too, but wasn't scum. I agree though, self-voting certainly doesn't help the town.
But what I'm having most trouble with is that the wagon formed awfully quickly, especially given the lack of response on Alex's behalf. Any scum on the wagon trying to lynch a less-active player before he can defend himself? Alex could still be scum ofcourse (everyone is, given the flavor ), but this wagon just isn't making any sense. It's just Alex trying to repeat his mistakes.

[jeromus]

Oh, so I don't get to be capitalised?

And - You mean to say that that is a scumtell? Or at the very least, not a town-tell? Seems as if you're being a tad hard on stupid play? I see no way in which a selfvote.

I just see it as too irrelevant and useless to benefit scumplay.

[jeromus]

EDIT - I see no way in which a selfvote benefits anyone, whether it be scum or not!

[Cirdua]

It can benefit scum if the self-voter is town. Do you not see how everyone is only focused on one person, Alex.

[Alexithymia]

Sorry I'm late.

-

-

-

Heh, I dont even regret it lol.

I've been sleeping and at work, different timezone remember.

My meta tells me to self vote.
I can confirm that Jeromus often calls me a dumbass as a sign of affection. He's my biatch

I am suspicious of Lacey's vote hopping.

Vi and Sotty are both just being normal Vi and Sotty.
VP Balter - If you

[Alexithymia]

Please ignore the bit at the end Balter, as usual, I mixed you up with ABR. Was gonna mention something from a game I played with him...thinking he was you...

[jeromus]

I agree - Cird, it benefits the scum for the attention to be on a hypothetically town Alex, but I see no reason for that justifying a bandwagon on Alex, hence my protest against it.

[Alexithymia]

People on Alex Wagon

Sotty
Balter
DRK
CC

Noted for later. Thank you for the reactions guys.