mini 943- Greek Mythology! (And the winner is... ?)

[Jack]

confirm

[Jack]

Why iecerint but none of the other people who have said nothing?

Nevermind, don't answer that.

[Jack]

Vote:ShadowDancer

I know you've seen people do that in other games, but it's really as bad as you can get in the rvs.

[Jack]

It's just the epitome of uselessness. Imagine if all of the players had done that.

[Jack]

[quote="Iecerint"]Yeah, that's the reason. The point of RVS is to generate non-RVS content. And it's not as if nothing had happened. My page 2 vote wasn't totally random. At best, he is not very thoughtful. At worst, he did it deliberately to weakvote a player upon whom nonrandom scrutiny had been placed.[/quote

He did the same in the only other game of his I can see. So I don't think we can take much from it.

Do a non-dice vote please SD.

[Jack]

@ Jack
Dice rolling is completely useless? Do you not think that the decision to use a dice is in itself something from which we can substract information? I think scum is much more likely to use a dice than town.

I don't think they are much more likely too. If he flips scum in his other game then maybe we can look back at it.

@Johoono: following me in what particular way?

[Jack]

At least got a non random dabate started which might produce useful information.

Scum love to say this

[Jack]

I also share your opinion with Shadow Dancer. Seems like predictable scum. I more predictable move from him, I move votes.

Why wait?

[Jack]

I'm not liking the feel of this language question stuff. Did you have anything specific about shadowdancer's posts that you would interpret differently if english is his second language? If not, why do you care

right now

?

[Jack]

What's standing out to me here is Iec voting for shadowdancer, then unvoting because of a

null

tell, mentioning that he "hasn't gotten his pm yet", then "getting" his pm a few minutes later (30). I don't understand the reasoning behind the greendirt vote, and don't care to go over it again, but since he switches off it easily it must not have been much.

Basically, if you feel that dice voting is anti-town, I don't see why you'd switch your vote off for a weak tell on someone else, just because the person dice voted in another game.

The role pm stuff might just be my paranoia. I'm feeling like iec could have gotten his pm, realized he was voting his partner and decided that was awkward. Mentioning my avatar looks like an excuse to say he hasn't got his pm yet. And the "english as second language" stuff is just odd, like he's looking for an excuse to discount something scummy that SD said.

[Jack]

Early read is Mindgamer -town (unless someone has meta on him which would indicate he's not very cautious, if at all, as scum).

I don't get having a town read at all at this stage, but where the heck in MG's

two

posts did you get a town read? How has he been "not cautious"?

[Jack]

That response sounds tense and terribly restrained.

And the votes on SD are clearly:

1) my vote--"scum love to say this"--content, not tone
2) Vas's vote--SD made a predictable scum move--content, not tone
3) Greenindirt--pressure vote

So it had to have been

you

that found his tone scummy, no one else was talking about it. Where did that come from?

[Jack]

This came off as quite brusque to me

Please formalize this, sounds like bull****, etc

I would be the one to know why I'm voting him right? I just said what content I found suspicious in the last post, the one you are responding too.

[Jack]

OK. His language implies that SB's vote for me was SERIOUS BUSINESS, whereas that was not really the case. The effect is achieved by use of few words, imperative mood, and simple sentence structure. That's what I mean by "brusque."

The point of my question was that that impression may be artifactual of English not being his first language.

I see. That is scummy. But not because it's brusque, but because it's a dumb vote (snow bunny was clearly doing a random vote, and it isn't suspicious to random vote on your first post). And he's the

last

person who should be jumping on someone for random voting. It's way out of wack with his dice vote.

You know, this is exactly what I had a feeling you were driving at with the language thing. You were trying to pass off something that's legitimately scummy as just poor tone.

With plums rvs vote, he's at 4 votes. I can see this as a "save my partner" attempt. It was subtle, too.

You voted him because of his diceroll. I know this because I can read you in iso, find your votepost, and read your explanation. If your reason has privately evolved, that's fine, but you shouldn't use my ignorance of that as basis that I slyly claimed people voted him for tone rather than content.

It hasn't privately evolved. I quoted a bit of his post that I found scummy, and urged another player to vote him for non-diceroll reasons. And if you thought that I was voting him for the diceroll, then I would hardly be voting him for tone, would I? Who

was

voting him for tone?

I want you to elaborate on why it's scummy rather than merely identifying it as scummy. What the hell is wrong with pointing out that his action generated discussion? It looks sheepish to me, but not scummy.

Scum, when pressed on their reasons to do something, like to cling to "but it generated discussion". This sidesteps the actual things they said, and puts a pro town spin on the results.

[Jack]

(Please similarly (or analogously) indicate why my post was "tense" and/or "restrained.")

This is fairly pointless, since it's a gut thing. The other people either see it or that don't.

It sounds tense and restrained because you painstakingly go through your defense step by step, even though my accusation

should

be kind of bizarre to you. I think if you were town, had told the truth about the pm etc, my accusation would have come out of left field. That half of it is paranoid and grasping, if I may say so. I was picking up on something I saw and pushing it. But you "don't blame me for finding the timing a little suspicious".

[Jack]

I would not be at all surprised if we have two scum here.

1) iec votes SD
2) gets pm, unvotes, says he doesn't have pm yet. Maybe he checked SD's meta and found he draws votes easy? Possible.
3) see's SD with 4 votes, bandwagon building
4) notices a very scummy comment that SD made, tries to plant the seeds of "it's just his brusque tone" in case that gets pointed out.

You're correct that I am trying to learn more about SD on account of the increased scrutiny.

Where exactly did Johoono say that? It sounds to me like he isn't saying anything like that.

[Jack]

You really need to quote or at least say which of my posts you are replying too, because:

To be honest, I was thinking mainly about my own perception of his post, but the voter that most came to mind was GiD. His was the vote that escalated the situation and prompted me to address the situation.

This kind of thing would really be much better in context.

I said that no one was voting SD for tone, they were voting him for content. My theory was about you noticing something scummy he said and trying to cover for him. My evidence was that since no one else was voting him on tone, but rather on content,

you

must have found him scummy. So I don't know how we jumped to you using that as a defense. It's not a defense, it's an admission.

GiD voted for pressure, not because of tone. You were addressing the situation before his vote, you twice mentioned the 2nd language thing, which basically implies that everyone should slow down or back off.

The point of all this: you found his tone scummy enough to

assume it was the reason for the votes

. But you were pushing a subtle defense. Now you say his tone is a little off, but otherwise defend him (in 83).

I've already answered your last question when GiD asked it. Check the previous page.

Correct me if this isn't who you were responding too:

@ Iecerint

: Are you meaning Vas in the post above, otherwise I don’t understand where you got that from?

I’m also amazed why it is discussed whom you trust, rather than whom you find suspicious (Post 55 by Plum and post 60 by Vas). But to be fair Vas mentioned Shadow Dancer as mildly scummy and when commented on that by Jack puts a vote there a few posts later.

I don't get how Plum and Vas have discussed who I trust. What do you mean? Post 55 is Plum saying she disagrees with my pre-role PM scumreads, and post 60 is Vasu saying I'm town for nonspecific reasons. The first is the opposite of not discussing who I find suspicious, and the second isn't even related to that dichotomy AFAIK.

You're correct that I am trying to learn more about SD on account of the increased scrutiny.

It sounds to me like you threw in an excuse for defending SD out of the blue. What post by GiD are you talking about?

If you're claiming that said "planting" was me asking whether English was his second language, then you are indeed horribly paranoid.

Why was I not horribly paranoid when I said that bit about you lying about not having a pm? Why isn't the whole case horribly paranoid?

If you are townie, and think I'm town, then you should think I'm horribly paranoid. If you are townie, and think I'm scum, then I shouldn't be paranoid, because scum aren't paranoid.

If Jack is town, it is unlikely that future discussion with him will make me more convinced of the fact. So that promotes ending discussion at the moment.

If Jack is scum, his rhetoric has already crossed the scumrhetoric threshold, so there's diminishing returns from continuing discussion with him at the moment.

What the heck is this supposed to mean? If I'm town, more discussion won't make you more convinced that I'm town? You can't mean that. What's the "scumrhetoric" threshold?

This sounds like a failed attempt to appear unsure of my alignment.

[Jack]

I'm not exactly sure what I think about this. On one hand, Iec seems to be playing too defensively with "I'm not saying that blablabla" arguments but I actually feel justified with his since Jack is grinding him bad. I usually don't like arguments like that because arguments like that are some of the easiest excuses ever made.

That's really all you get from Iec? What about the content of the argument? You are very indecisive here compared to a previous post. There you called me, green and iec townie, SV scummy, and SD scummy.

Cough up your metas' you two. I need some sort of idea of your playstyle here. Right now, I am thinking that the sort of pressure Jack is putting against Iec is quite uncomfortably unlike the usual D1 pressuring I've seen. But then again, typical scum won't make that much effort on D1.

You want me to tell you my meta?

Ok...

Here's me as town:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=175
And as scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

There you go

[Jack]

That's ok Iec, I'm more interested in Vas right now

Can I get a thought from you on his fence sitting here vs his post 60?

[Jack]

I can see Vas as scumpartner with SD. His vote after I prodded him is odd, being willing to call so many people townie is odd, and his last post is wishy washy. He might think I have a good case, but is worried that SD will be lynched if you are seen as scum. He could either be scum not wanting to commit to a bus on SD, or scum letting two townies fight it out. I'd talk about a theory involving the three of you as scum (it's fairly obvious) but that's a bit farfetched on page 4 even for me :p

I haven't dropped you by the way, I'm just shifting focus. I will say that I don't often see scum go for the "yes you are right, I was wrong about that..." etc approach.

[Jack]

Oh, more facts. In addition to the SD point, Post 60 also indicates that he

thought I was town at that point

. So that might further contextualize the equivocation.

Yes, interestingly. He called you and greenindirt as town vs town after your argument, "mostly from gut". Vas, what was the part that wasn't from gut?

He called that one town vs town, but when we have an argument that looks serious enough to have a possible lynch behind it, he sets himself up so that he can go either way.

Maybe

an honest position

of course

.

You aren't very clear in saying what you think of him.

[Jack]

I ignore text speak, lol. <--except "lol"

[Jack]

[Jack]

I'm laughing at "TWENTY players"...

[Jack]

I don't believe that was hyperbole. It makes much more sense for you to have just typed the wrong number by accident. Why say it was hyperbole?

[Jack]

Nevertheless, this entire debacle has shown some interesting things. I’m curious why Jack keeps his vote on Shadow when he at the same time is attacking Iecerint in post 79.

@ Jack:

Is Shadow Dancer your top scum candidate right now?

Vas, SV, SD, and Iec are the people I'm interested in. My vote is on SD because he was talking and my theory had them as scumpartners.

On the topic of TWENTY:

I seriously don’t see the big fuss about SV saying twenty instead of twelve players.

The fuss isn't about saying twenty, it's about making up a bs excuse when he's called on it. Bad.

Iecerint vs Jack
I have a gut feeling Iecerint is a scum in this discussion. Sentences I don't like include 'more discussion won't change anything no matter what' and 'I like distancing on Day 1 as scum'.

The connection to SD is tenuous, but the tone of the defense is plain odd.

Btw, I have very little faith in meta. I would especially not trust on games that people give as examples of their 'alignments meta'

That's what I was grinning about when I gave him those links. Go ahead Vas, look through the game where I lurked massively as scum and compare it to this one

You get what you ask for.

[Jack]

And he is right about that, english is my 2nd language.

So that makes him rather a good observer than a suspect.

That bounces by Iec-SD theory up in probability.

It's quite scummy to misrepresent yourself when someone asks for a meta.

I implied they weren't representative when I posted them...

I've spent a deal of effort over the years giving myself a flexible meta

You get townie points for actually reading them promptly though. I had a worry that it was a "sorry I haven't posted much for two weeks, been busy reading those meta's" type of thing.

[Jack]

I don't feel up to giving this game the analysis it needs. But I'd like to say that between Iec's summary of the case against SD and that comment that GiD just pointed out, I'm very much feeling the Iec-SD as partners theory.

[Jack]

Jack, do you think my summary of the case on SD was inaccurate or misleading? If so, why haven't you offered SB a more balanced take on the issue?

Your "summary of the case" sounded more like a defense. I think it's weird that you offered to do it in the first place since you apparently don't suspect SD very much.

Points one and three are red herrings that were weak points you brought against SD and quickly dropped. Point 2 you misrepped as "SD voted for snow bunny, but it was fine because Jack asked him too". Remember I said this:

I see. That is scummy. But not because it's brusque, but because it's a dumb vote (snow bunny was clearly doing a random vote, and it isn't suspicious to random vote on your first post). And he's the last person who should be jumping on someone for random voting. It's way out of wack with his dice vote.

You act like I should have said "well that's a bad vote and hypocritical, but it's what I asked you for!" when obviously I wasn't asking him for a bad, hypocritical vote.

SD isn't a huge suspect for me, I simply don't see any reason for a townie to keep doing these subtle defenses that are trying to not look like defenses. If it's your play style then that's pretty frustrating.

******

And to whoever it was who said I shouldn't be looking for pairings this early, I very much disagree. And I don't have much else to go on anyway. Vas is seeming town now, and SV dropped out.

[Jack]

I know you pointed that out. I don't care that you pointed it out--I care that chose to defend him in the first place. Do you have a "I don't assume people are townie for no reason and defend them all the time" mode?

[Jack]

I was going to sit quiet in this game until SD posted more, but I see I let it go a bit longer than that.

VV seems town.
SD seems fairly natural so I will drop Iec and him for now for now.

unvote

I don't like Almasters post above. VV seems to be putting more effort into the game than most, it's silly to accuse him of active lurking. Sitting quiet while waiting for other people to post is perfectly acceptable.

[Jack]

What the heck are you talking about? You're at L-4.

[Jack]

I don't like the VV wagon at all, let's lynch SV/SV's replacement

unvote, vote:Almaster

SV lied for scummy reasons and then flaked out, Almaster is pushing a bad case with bad reasoning.

Ooba had a pretty bad post too I think.

[Jack]

One thing is true. We're close to deadline and, though I'm happy with the current lynch, it would be better if there was more consensus.

Quickly, to all of you: Between VV, SD and Andrius, which one do you prefer to lynch?

I, myself, find VV (duh) the best choice. Though, I'll want Andrius to answer for some things tomorrow.

What the heck is this list?

VV has 5 votes right?
Almaster has 3 (4 since VV will be willing to switch I assume)
SD has 2
Andrius has one.

The real choice is between Almaster and VV. Almaster is the better choice by far.

[Jack]

Unvoting isn't required, VV is listed as voting Almaster, you (ooba )aren't listed as voting almaster because you are voting johoono, and plum is listed as voting twice.

Yikes

[Jack]

I was starting from SB's list and showing Almasters place on it. If I'd been making my own list of the top candidates I wouldn't have included someone with 2 votes.

I messed up the votes on Almaster though, because a couple people who had been voting him switched (they were still willing to lynch him obviously).

[Jack]

VV is very townie.

Quit trying to pretend you didn't replace a player who was the #1 suspect.

You and VV are the only two likely lynches, based on what people have said.

[Jack]

You can read the thread for why many people have found SV suspicious. Deliberately lying in response to a perceived threat is a good scumtell (SV's claim that it was hyperbole). You say the votes on you are ridiculous because you haven't done anything scummy, however the person you replaced had, so that makes the votes not ridiculous.

I say Vas is townie because that's my gut feel. He went to a lot of effort to read peoples meta's when he really didn't have to. I get the feeling that was genuine effort and not faked effort to look good.

All you've done since replacing in is focus entirely on VV. You barely mention anyone else

at all

. Your case on VV is based on flip flopping and being wishy washy--but hardcore tunneling is a better scumtell. A certain amount of wishy washiness and jumping around/changing opinions is pro town. It's only when it looks opportunistic or not wanting to commit so they can join the biggest wagon etc, that it's scummy. There has to be a specific reason.

Straight up tunneling after replacing in is anti-town all the way though, and has a definite scum personality to it, more than wishy washy. You came in like scum trying to drive a mislynch/get pressure on someone else other than you.

[Jack]

"unstoppable kill" is usually a scum power, not a town power. Get past the doctor to kill the cop, etc.

[Jack]

Unvote

I personally think you should "Unstoppable Kill" yourself. (It avoids any WIFOM situation on Day 2)

Ares was not a good I'd put in the "good" category but vig for the violent god does make sense.

Anyway, that gets us another lynch. We have by my calculation about 48 hours to lynch? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Vas, I think you should claim now. Going back to read who else is a good lynch candidate.

Scum points for ooba. You surely don't think almaster will kill himself if he's scum. But you claimed to think he was scum before. Why not keep your vote on instead of asking for the suicide? So you can get Vas to claim?

[Jack]

hahahaha

ooba, your double post shows a bit of the editing you did. Why did you cut out " Going back to read who else is a good lynch candidate. "?

~Oops... I am so sorry. I deleted that post thinking it was a double post. I did not notice it was edited. Just confirming that that post did exist.~

[Jack]

There is no way we should lynch VV.

Almaster is the lynch. I don't care that he's claimed vig and the "proper play with a claimed vig, yadda yadda". If you're the vig, you don't tunnel on one player because you have to

figure out

who you want to kill at night. Ideally you question as many people as you can. He hasn't played like a vig at all, he claimed scummy flavor, and he claimed a scummy ability.

If we let him live today he will most likely use his unstoppable kill to get through the doc protection and kill VV.

[Jack]

This is absolutely silly. VV said "Role: cop, blah blah". He didn't say "Power: cop, blah blah".

Let's lynch Almaster so that he doesn't use the unstoppable kill on VV. And then we can look at ooba tomorrow. He is very likely scum as well.

[Jack]

What it says in the power section is irrelevant. Vas never claimed that it said that in the power section.

[Jack]

I could see flava flave as scum.

[Jack]

What it says in the power section is irrelevant. Vas never claimed that it said that in the power section.

Aphrodite, Goddess of Love.
Role: Cop. I can seduce anyone and reveal their alignment.
Super Power: Whoever hammers me dies(From madness, apparently. Coz I'm all pretty-like).

Gotta say, Jack, I'm a little thrown off by your certainty on VV. His syntax, namely, seems to imply that he was paraphrasing the

Power

information with the "Role:" bit.

I don't think his syntax does imply that, and I think it was you who pointed out how silly ooba's "apparently" point was earlier.

It's aggravatingly obvious that this push on VV is scum driven.

I would be very surprised if there isn't a town cop in this setup. He hasn't been counterclaimed. I

would

be surprised if there's a town vig, because that's a terribly swingy role in this setup.

[Jack]

I think we should lynch VV and have ooba hammer. This effectively gives town an extra lynch. Then Alma should unstoppable vig accordingly.

This also forces scum to take out VV via a lynch rather than via an NK, since the claimed bomb effect works only through lynches.

WCS is if both VV and ooba are town, but that still removes players who would've been under scrutiny.

This doesn't make sense Iec...if VV is town we don't want him lynched. If you think ooba is scum I don't see how you can suspect VV very strongly. Ooba made the entire case on him--that seems an unlikely scum bussing tacting if VV was his scumpartner. The fact that the scummiest people all want VV lynched should be a red flag. Flava suspected mindgamer/ooba and was voting for him, but switches to vas when he feels the tide going that way.

Ooba's argument is not good--it relies on the assumption that scum pm's are different than town pm's in the way they list the powers. Mods aren't always consistent with their role pm's either, which was part of lord chronos's argument too. Ooba has used terrible reasoning throughout as well.

His inane "what setup is that?" post is the best answer he has to argument that a town cop is more likely than a town vig. That's a good assumption given what we know of the setup. The OP says that powers can be stolen by some players--if the town had a vig power and it was stolen by scum, that basically equals game over. I played on a scum team once that got a vig kill (extra kill) through the pre game lottery, town never stood a chance. It wasn't lynch or lose for them, it was lynch the wrong mafioso and lose.

There's no way Almaster is the vig; he's the best lynch. As scum he will most likely use the unstoppable on VV.

[Jack]

Ooba's argument is not good--it relies on the assumption that scum pm's are different than town pm's in the way they list the powers. Mods aren't always consistent with their role pm's either, which was part of lord chronos's argument too. Ooba has used terrible reasoning throughout as well.

Two questions - which part of Post 405 is bad reasoning?

The "he got a fake claim

name only

, and decided not to format his power part anything like his base pm, for no reason". This is what I said in the post you are quoting--you assume that his scum pm has flavor in the power section. That's the only reason for scum to include it in a fake claim. Why do you assume that when it obviously doesn't make sense given the setup (with powers being transferred)?

This was LC's quote after he read 405 - which indicates he didnt have a problem with the case - so you and VV can stop using his name ..

It's not like I'm appealing to his authority.

Which brings me to the second question - something you've skirted over - does your

Power:

section have flavor?

No.

(And I love how your defense for VV on this has shifted from "He never said it was in the Power: section" to "Mod's aren't consistent with their Role PM structure")

The first argument was entirely true, and made your initial case ridiculous, since the most obvious explanation was that he was just generally describing his role and not paraphrasing the power section.

That he was paraphrasing the power section is surprising since it means his pm is different from ours for some

unknown

(!= scummy) reason. The fact that he CLAIMED he was paraphrasing the power section when he could easily have denied it and said he was describing his role is basically the final nail in the coffin of your theory however.

These are the assumptions your argument requires:

1) scum pm's have a different power format from town pm's, that includes flavor
2) Vas, having seen Almasters claim with no flavor, decides to add flavor when he makes his own
3) That there's no town cop in the setup

You keep harping on "it's different, it's different, it's different" like that is all you have to say.

Respond to this please:

His inane "what setup is that?" post is the best answer he has to argument that a town cop is more likely than a town vig. That's a good assumption given what we know of the setup. The OP says that powers can be stolen by some players--if the town had a vig power and it was stolen by scum, that basically equals game over. I played on a scum team once that got a vig kill (extra kill) through the pre game lottery, town never stood a chance. It wasn't lynch or lose for them, it was lynch the wrong mafioso and lose.

There's no way Almaster is the vig; he's the best lynch.

Explain why you think there would be a vig power in the setup. You understand if Almaster was a town vig, and the scum can steal powers (as implied by OP) if they killed him they would get an extra night kill? In a

mini

? And you seriously want to lynch an un counter claimed cop because he said he had flavor in his power description?

[Jack]

Everyone:

Why are we still limiting ourselves to this stupid false dichotomy of me vs VV? We have 24 hours. That's plenty of time to completely shift wagons.

I'd be a fan of a Jack wagon, personally.

After tunneling the whole day on VV as scum, you complain about limiting ourselves to you two? You think he's town then? You said he was scum a few posts ago.

Explain why you think there would be a vig power in the setup. You understand if Almaster was a town vig, and the scum can steal powers (as implied by OP) if they killed him they would get an extra night kill? In a mini? And you seriously want to lynch an un counter claimed cop because he said he had flavor in his power description?

If you are so sure that double-NKing scum would wreck and absolutely not be in the setup, why don't you let me live so I can prove myself? If two people end up dead in the morning, you know I'm telling the truth.

Plus, seeing as you are kinda right that scum w/ Vig ability would be amazing, they will probably try and kill me anyway to get the power, thus doing your work for you.

So basically:

1) if you're scum, you'll kill the cop/avoid lynching for a day/waste powers from people checking on you
2) if you're town, the scum will kill you, possibly stealing your power and giving themselves a super powerful double kill?

[Jack]

@Jack

Actually, the first assumption you list is not "required". It is possible though that scum-VV simply made up the flavor regardless of whether his pm has flavor.

That would be a huge stretch though...his power has no flavor, Almaster's claimed power has no flavor, and he claims flavor?

The strongest point you have made is about his denying the flavor in his superpower but admitting it in his power. Still, if everyone else confirms they have to flavor in their power section, I think it seems likely this is a fakeclaim.

I don't see it that way, though a large portion of my certainty comes from my scum reads pushing a bad case on a town read. I've seen townies lynched before for having inconsistencies in their role pm.

Small problem with your argument that Almaster is scum. You say scum with a Vig power would be stupidly overpowered and would break the game, yet you think he is scum? Are you saying that he is fakeclaiming?

I don't think he has vig power, obviously.

[Jack]

If Vas kills the person who hammers him, then perhaps no one gets the power, and that explains why it has flavor. If the reason the other powers don't have flavor is because they can be taken, then it is not too surprising that a power that can't be taken had the flavor left in.

@Ooba: you are still trumping up a minor issue like it's a huge gotcha piece of evidence. It isn't. This is too complex a setup to jump to conclusions about an inconsistency. I have seen townies lynched based on that several times. Even silly stuff like words not being capitalized even though they are in everyone elses pm.

Your willingness to hammer does get you some townie points though.

[Jack]

Terrible.

[Jack]

Lying about it was pretty brilliant because it basically confirms ooba as town.

[Jack]

vote:almaster

So you're the vig, but there was only one kill for some reason (yours), you chose to kill snow bunny for some reason (!?), and your vig ability mysteriously vanished so we can test to see if you ever actually had it?

[Jack]

You like to vig people who you have a

neutral

read on?

I'm having a hard time believing that almaster isn't just inventing reasons here. ooba, can you explain more about the vig power thing?

[Jack]

You're quoting someone other than you, who says they didn't want to kill their top suspect because that would reveal them as vig. You were already revealed as vig though.

Or are you ryan2754??

[Jack]

If you were me, who would you have vigged?

Top suspect. If you don't vig top suspect, your chances of killing a townie go up. Are you the ryan274 guy or not?

[Jack]

Because you

didn't

make a vig I disagree with, you didn't make a vig at all, because you lied about being the vig, and you're now making excuses for why there was only one death...even going so far as to quote random people in your support.

Unless ooba can can shine a drastically new light on things, but I doubt it.

[Jack]

Because you didn't make a vig I disagree with, you didn't make a vig at all, because you lied about being the vig, and you're now making excuses for why there was only one death...even going so far as to quote random people in your support.

Are you even reading the thread? When have I EVER made ANY "excuse" for why there was only one death? Moreover, ooba CONFIRMED that I had the Vig ability, so you're hissy fit that I'm lying about it is flat out untrue.

And now, after all that, you're saying you actually

like

the shot. What the hell is going on here?

1) I'm saying there was only one death because you didn't have a vig power. As I said before it makes no sense in this game. As a non-vig, you have to claim that the only kill was done by you, so you make up excuses for having "killed" snow bunny.

2) He said you had some sort of kill ability, but explicitly said it didn't say a vig ability.

3) I didn't say I liked the "shot", I said I couldn't disagree with a shot that I don't think was even made. That was the point of "you didn't make a vig at all"

[Jack]

Hmm. I can sorta buy the above. I didn't like his shot on Precision mafia because he killed one of my only town reads, but it's true that he got some criticism from his use of his ability there.

The criticism doesn't at all seem to be along the lines of "kill your neutral reads".

[Jack]

Claim:

If I'm alive during a massclaim, I become anti-town and get unlimited daykill ability.

[Jack]

Actually I totally mixed this up with our other game

[Jack]

Game is dying. Let's lynch almaster.

[Jack]

I like flava best from your list by far. But I don't get the alma love.

[Jack]

That's a terrible reason for suspecting VV's claim.

[Jack]

I'll have to think about this. I like flava as a suspect but people mysteriously clearing my suspects while dangling "could be sk or hades" but deciding they aren't, and "reconsidering" briefly, etc, make me uncomfortable.

[Jack]

Nice and defeatist.

unvote, vote:Flava Flave

Iec, quit saying things like "given that alma is town...". I would be shocked if none of the scum had an investigation immunity. All it does is cut down on the odds of him being scum.

[Jack]

@Joh: Usually if I have something to say about someone I say it.

@Flava: lack of effort is defeatism, yes.

[Jack]

I want him to answer Joh's question. It's not as if Joh asked him to claim or something.

He asked me to reread one of the most prolific posters without giving a reason for wanting it.

SD, what do you mean by "he would have had to have predicted ooba's claim later"?

[Jack]

unvote

I'm too busy right now to do this. But assuming SD and Iec are masons is very weird. The fact that they are both majorly protecting alma is looking bad right now.

I will check ooba's setup speculation more thoroughly, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong.

[Jack]

At least SD-Iec is a confirmed pair. Glad I wasn't swinging at windmills with that.

[Jack]

I am trying to determine whether I have perceived selective brilliance on your part.

What did you mean by this post Iec?

[Jack]

Any breadcrumbs? I don't usually think much of breadcrumbs but I don't see scum crumbing mason.

[Jack]

So the 2 scummiest people have innocent results on them. Charming.

I would be very surprised if one of the wasn't a GF, or has their scumbuddy claim a fake result on them. Although the last makes much more sense in 2:2:8 which I don't believe this setup is.

I haven't seen anything particularly suspicious from Joh or Plum, and I have seen it from Flava and Alma. Is there a good reason to go by the results? I don't see one.

[Jack]

Almaster claimed roleblocker already CMAR.

[Jack]

He must have lied about the roleblocker bit...we figured out that Ares was a serial killer and did a name claim to try and track him down. I suspect him to be Ares personally.

[Jack]

In what games have you found that claiming before reading a game with a lot of pages is helpful?

[Jack]

Are you guys just ignoring the fact that I just unclaimed roleblocker and claimed who you think is SK (Ares)?

Nice...I like it.

Vote:Flava Flave

I have no enthusiasm for paint by numbers, confirmed townie list style mafia hunting. Even if I'm not the target (today), and especially not since the confirmed townie list is not at all confirmed. I've had two scum claim an investigative ability early on in recent games. I'd put it as either flava = GF or LC lied.

[Jack]

Makes no sense for scum_LC to claim poseidon. What's the point in sacrificing himself just to reveal posiedon (from an already very limited pool of possibles?)

[Jack]

Regarding Joh's claim, there are three possibilities. One, Joh is lying scum trying to get me lynched. Two, Joh is telling the truth but someone else's power interfered with his result on me. Three, looking back at what the mod said about counters,

it says that if Poseidon/Hades/owner of the Zeus counter is killed they pass on a counter. It doesn't say they have a counter to start with.

What??? Don't you know whether that's true or not?

[Jack]

claim: Persephone

Recruitable by mafia (hades).

Normal power: investigate to find hades
Special: hide from hades (guaranteed)

N1: got alma as not hades
N2: got Iec as not hades

Don't know of these are guaranteed.


Most of today I've playing to help mafia. I was even trying to trip CMAR up in the hopes he'd do something scummy. But that made him look very town and with LC's claim we basically know who the mafia is.

I'm guessing three scum, with hades as a GF. That makes 4 mafia with 2 (sort of) GF's if they managed to recruit me. 2 scum and one recruitable is just underpowered.

Ooba--athena
Iec & SD--masons
LC--poseidon
Alma/CMAR--ares
Flava--turned up innocent
Andrius--turned up innocent
Joh--probably mafia
Plum--probable mafia

The best plan is to lynch Flava. If he flips mafia aligned then we know we got hades (unless some other factor is at work, unlikely). I'll hide tonight either way. If he flips town, then andrius is hades. Joh and plum are almost certainly mafia, but I'd rather stay town aligned (obvtown-cop lynchings and all). They basically knew who I was before this I'm pretty sure, with all the claims. Since I don't see a way to avoid being recruited without killing hades asap it seems like we have to go for flava.

[Jack]

I think Joh's role makes no sense--he investigates to find if someone is zeus, hades, or poseidon? What for? With one scum group and no counter claim, it seems clear that LC is poseidon (and innocent).

That being the case, if we lynch wrong, then LC can use his roleblock to stop the mafia kill. Whatever happened to alma's killing ability? That could be used on plum or Joh if we don't do the roleblock. Either way we don't lose if FF flips innocent.

I don't see it being anything other than FF-Joh-Plum though.

[Jack]

Ooba, consider that if I didn't hide, got recruited, and LC blocked the kill, I would have just joined a losing team instead of auto-winning. For me to not-hide, wouldn't I need to be completely sure the mafia kill would go through?

Lynching Joh is a good strategy for town, but not the best for me...

[Jack]

Jack, can you please elaborate on the matter of your recruitement mechanics? Are you recruited by Hades through a spcial recruitment skill or just by mafia NK-targeting you?

I would assume Hades has a "investigate and/recruit" type normal power. But that's speculation. It's not the mafia NK targetting me because it's by hades specifically.

[Jack]

unvote, vote:Joh

[Jack]

unvote

[Jack]

What is going on?

[Jack]

hmm

Vote:Joh

Iec and SD, if you guys are in a mafia group with LC (which you make it sound like) tell me after the hammer so I know not hide.

[Jack]

I think that's a wrap. We still have a universal roleblock and I still have the hide. 2 mafia left and they can't recruit or kill tonight.

Let's get claims from FF and Plum ASAP. They probably were going to work on their fakeclaims during the night period. Any dawdling =guilty.

[Jack]

And that makes a FF-LC-Almaster-Joh starting scumteam.

If LC is a sk, he can't kill without revealing himself to be one right?

[Jack]

Sorry, should have been:

"And that makes a FF-LC-Almaster-Joh starting scumteam--which is clearly unbalanced and implausible"

[Jack]

Hmm, this kind of smells setup.

[Jack]

Hmm, this kind of smells setup.

Just vote me or Andrius. You can win with town, right? Or have you already been recruited and are lying about that bit?

It all seems a bit coincidental...it would make sense for mafia to try a trick here.

[Jack]

This sucks, I really wanted to win with the mafia. There's really no point to being recruitable otherwise. What are you supposed to do, try and scumhunt when you could be force switched any night?

But with joh's flip and andrius's flake out it looks like Iec and SD really are masons, as preposterous as that is.

Don't ask me to contribute in a big way, it's a technical victory at best.

[Jack]

I'd forgotten about your narrative for taking Alma's ability. Is a good point.

That heuristic does get kinda muddied when you point out that the alternative is to lynch the claimed Cop, though. I think even Plum was on the side of lynching Alma after VV claimed.

I had VV on the scumteam. Was super pleased that I'd figured it out on page 3. Remember when I asked for your mason breadcrumb and you quoted me that ridiculous thing with letters from inside words bolded, and I never followed up on it? I had a good laugh over that.

[Jack]

vote:andrius

[Jack]

Iec had the counter of hades...no idea why she got shown as town flipped. That shouldn't happen.

pm'ing the mod, figuring things out.

[Jack]

Data, you couldn't even let me pm the mod? This lynch today bodes very poorly for the town.

[Jack]

And we should believe you, who stole the hammer from ooba and day killed a confirmed alignment mason, why?

It's all moot now. But I had a very good reason for the hammer and the "confirmed" masons were anything but. There's a difference between being confirmed to each other and being confirmed to the rest of us you know?

[Jack]

This was a close game and I enjoyed it greatly, but very disappointed in town for not pulling through. You had this game.

Yes, can you guys say...Yoink!

[Jack]

So you were town, Jack?

No. The "this lynch bodes poorly for the town" bit was for Iec's benefit.

[Jack]

Though I guess my framing Jack's hammer as 100% scum motivated sealed me in as the Zeus counter-holder, if it wasn't already obvious already (and I'm sure it was).

I was saying you last night, but then we figured ooba was more likely. Because he'd hammered someone already + was insisting on hammering. But yeah, your asking to hammer + the weird abilities you and SD had narrowed it down. Not sure why you backed out of hammering though.

I think the town just didn't figure that the mafia could win by getting the three counters.

Ugh, I was screaming at all of you.

Only SD tried to hypothesize (incorrectly, unfortunately) why Jack had bothered to steal the last hammer.

It was because I totally mixed up the win condition + plum's ability. I should have checked, but at least I only had to wait around for 2 minutes. And it was pretty funny.

[Jack]

Great flavor, DN. I (and especially ooba) enjoyed how all the PRs encouraged and rewarded principled set-up speculation, and I enjoyed having the best role EVER (Mason Cop Hider Day-Skipper). The counter mechanic was a little swingy, ye know -- the hidden scum wincon aspect is particularly <_<ish -- but it was still fun from the perspective of someone who had one. I thought SD was going to claim to have it a few times! ^^

I'm OK with sharing my QT with SD if it's OK with him.

Ditto on the dead-can-talk QT. I got a little spirited toward the end, though. Read side-by-side with the thread for maximum hilarity. ^^;

Was the Zeus power the day skipping thing? That's what I was thinking.

I think the hidden scum wincon was a mass claim balancing factor. It was the mass reveal that outed the scum team that told us who poseidon was and really ended up telling us who had the zeus counter.

[Jack]

We had a universal roleblock. Andrius used it and killed ooba.

I did nothing (was GF, had one shot "make everyone appear innocent" which I used the night you investigated andrius).

I sent in the kill on you right after I got the ability, then vanished. It looked really nice in the thread, Iec says that Jack is 100% confirmed scum, jack kills Iec who is town aligned.

[Jack]

It's neat that Persephone was the GF. Lots of games like this blindly make the leader the GF even if it doesn't really make sense via flavor. PersephoneGF fits, since gods wouldn't necessary see her as scum.

Would have been nice for her to be recruitable :p

Jack, I think your timing was even better than that, because it filled everyone will KILL JACK NAO sentiment. The only O.o moment was when Andy was like I THINK YOU SHOULD KILL JACK TO WIN, TOWN and town was like LOL THANX ANDY. <3 XDXD

I know. I loved that. But we hadn't even planned for it remotely--so I had no way of knowing if Andrius was ready to do a quicklynch. I posted to indicate that I had the counter but wanted to keep quiet. He was probably waiting quietly for the third vote when I was waiting for him to post in the thread so that I could chat and verify that he was ready.

He wasn't the only one.
As long as Plum was alive, I would investigate-reveal as Town. Which is why I flipped town to you/SD.

I thought anything directed at you got directed at plum instead? So it didn't really work for investigations.

[Jack]

Oh. I didn't know what that meant. But when I said that he'd had the counter of hades that was a pretty obvious hint.

Naw, it just flipped me as town.

I guess my power was useless after all then. GF + universal Godfatherizer, and it did nothing, tch.

[Jack]

Yeah, I totally missed the masons thing too, even though I was all over the connection on like, page 3. Difference between real scumhunting and fake scumhunting I guess.

[Jack]

It was really lucky for us that Alma killed someone, and then we got 3 investigative results on 3 different players with no overlaps. I think Alma would've gone if I didn't have the innocent, and FF next. Though I suppose ooba may've come to the rescue, maybe.

I'm still surprised there was a vig in this game. We tried to kill him and steal the power that night, but I think he was busdriven...or something. That would have almost sealed it, with 4 scum and a daykill.

[Jack]

Yeah, Jack, I interpreted your attention to me as legitimate, because i *WAS* using a crap argument to save my "faction friend." It made more sense when I realized that my first two sources of heat had been GiD and then JHH.

I wasn't paying attention to who you were attacking though. That bit about english being SD's second language was just so out there.

Jack, are you sorry for killing me?

Why didn't you use Plum's special on N1?

I think we thought it would block our actions too.

[Jack]

@KillMeAnAlma: What the heck were you thinking? Puting Jack at L-1 without announcing it and obviously without reading and understandng my previous post...

To be fair, FF's vote is what put it over the edge, because all we needed then was for andrius and me to be on at the same time.

I still don't understand why Jack claimed Persphone the moment he did it. What was your motive?

Lots of players had established a Jack-JHH link. That may have been why. But I'm curious, too.

Didn't notice anything about a link between me and JHH, but if you remember that day it was the two of you and ooba running the show completely--"JHH, Plum, and Jack are mafia" was the accepted truth and all of us were lurking. So it was very much a "why not" claim, plus it entertained me. And it at least gave me some leverage to argue for a FF lynch, although in retrospect I should have argued for an Andrius lynch. I was hoping he would just slide by though. Also, I was definitely the most expendable member of the mafia team.

[Jack]

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/EjUJg7n6HRzC

Mafia QT.

[Jack]

I assume that when plum was lynched in Andy's place her special got used.

[Jack]

Iece, at the bottom of the main mafiascum page there's a list of people who are online. I took myself off, in order to secretly lurk and hammer. lol

I was looking at that and thinking "damn, where is Andrius!"

[Jack]

He said he was travelling for a few days.

[Jack]

You are

Persephone, the Goddess of Springtime

and Hades wife. You are mafia aligned.



Your partners are Cerberus, Guardian of Hell (Plum), Hades, God of the Underworld (greenindirt), and Erinnyes, the Ghosts of Wrong Doing (Johoohno). You can talk with your partners here. Each night, you and your partners may kill one person. You must send in the name of whom you wish to kill and whom is meant to do the killing. The target for the kill will then die that night unless protected or whomever is making the kill is blocked.

Power

: Should you be investigated by anyone, you will always appear sided with the town.

Special

: Any normal investigations that target your partners will yield town results.

Win condition:
A) Hades lives and ONE mafia member controls ALL three counters from Hades, Zeus, and Poseidon.

B) Hades dies and mafia out numbers town.

C) Mafia controls 8 of the 13 available powers.

Please confirm in thread here.

And I got this one too:

You receive Zeus' counter.

(Please note that you can not win unless Hades has all three counters.)

[Jack]

I liked that fakeclaim supersaint VV (even though it was a huge pain for us this game). I used it to good effect in another game, was an inspiration

[Jack]

Very interesting, thanks VV.

Why was VV's fake claim a huge pain for you, Jack? Is there anything better for scum than a townie who is straight out lying?

I thought it was genuine and that 2 townies would die...that would actually have been a scum win right there, since we had a nightkill and a daykill and the roleblock.

And yeah, ooba went from scummy townie pushing a mislynch on a cop to confirmed town setup decipherer.

[Jack]

Oh, I almost forgot --

Jack, did ooba really doublepost and change his text D1, or did you totally make that up?

He really did. It was very scummy.