mini 943- Greek Mythology! (And the winner is... ?)

[Shadow Dancer]

@ Shadow Dancer
Why did you choose to roll a dice?

[...]

@ Jack
Dice rolling is completely useless? Do you not think that the decision to use a dice is in itself something from which we can substract information? I think scum is much more likely to use a dice than town.

What is more suspect in rolling a dice than doing some stupid reasoning like "vote greenindirt for having for his dirty nick" (or something like that). Very little information, most likely none, can be derived from it, anyways.

At least got a non random dabate started which might produce useful information.

/unvote

/vote Snow_Bunny

I think random stage is over. Tell me, what is your reason to vote Iec?

Vote Count

Shadow Dancer- Plum, Jack (L-5)
MindGamer- VasudeVa, Flava Flave (L-5)
VasudeVa- Bio Hazard (L-6)
Plum- Johoohno (L-6)
Johoohno- Mindgamer, Iecerint (L-5)
Iecerint- Snow_Bunny (L-6)
Snow_Bunny- Shadow Dancer (L-6)

With 12 alive, its 7 to lynch.

[Jack]

At least got a non random dabate started which might produce useful information.

Scum love to say this

[Shattered Viewpoint]

I'm confused by what you mean by effective writing. I get what you mean, that you think I voted for wagon A over B for reason X, but I give the reason Y, ie.

I give a different reason than what the real reason was.

I'm confused over the definition you are giving to Y and X.

Lying is inherently anti-town.

Why would you lie to us?

[Snow_Bunny]

That hurts my feelings.

Ah, come on! It's a friendly

bolt of judgement

vote!

@Shadow: Maybe the RVS was over for you, but I don't start a game without some randomness!

[Iecerint]

I disagree @ SD. I've caught page 1 scum in my life. Seemingly trivial exchanges can sometimes indicate alignment if you get lucky. Still, I agree that the types of RVS votes you're describing are similarly anti-town, even if they're more normative than diceroll votes AFAIK.

[Plum]

Early read is Mindgamer -town (unless someone has meta on him which would indicate he's not very cautious, if at all, as scum).

I don't personally get a ring of scumminess/untruthiness/whatever with Green's first vote. That;s not reflective of Iec because that was before he got his Role PM; I also disagree that Jo was trying to frame his actions at scummy with the 34/36 thing. Read it as just trying to prod for any info that could be gotten in this stage.

[Iecerint]

^ It's less the first vote than the subsequent explanation for said vote re: green.

[greenindirt]

@ greenindirt

: Is MindGamer your top suspect as of now?

No, merely an excuse for a wagon during the RVS. Seems we're heading out of it now and nothing will come of it, so:

Unvote

I'm confused by what you mean by effective writing. I get what you mean, that you think I voted for wagon A over B for reason X, but I give the reason Y, ie.

I give a different reason than what the real reason was.

I'm confused over the definition you are giving to Y and X.

Lying is inherently anti-town.

Why would you lie to us?

You're definitely taking the bolded part out of context. I was restating what ice was arguing for (that I had lied) and then asking him to clarify. I'm still confused by why he thought I was lying, but doesn't matter anymore.

[Iecerint]

If there are obvious reasons to pick a preferred wagon, but you specify alternate reasons as the basis of your choice, the chance that the alternate reason is untrue is greater than the case where the obvious reason is the specified reason. That's the basis of the belief. Since scum are more likely to perceive motives to say untrue things than town, that scenario has a slightly highly prior probability from scum. That's the basis of the vote.

But I like Jo better, as you say. I also agree that SV is taking your comment out of context.

[greenindirt]

I really don't see how Vas calling MG a manipulative SOB makes MG the obvious wagon. I understand what you're saying now though, thanks for clarifying. A question then: Do you think Lynch all Liers is a good policy?

Where did I discuss you liking Jo?

I'm a fan of being eager, however, I expect a new post from Iecerint very soon to help us read his role and not only his mood.

Reading this again, it seems off. Had you meant alignment instead of role, as I was under the impression that rolefishing is scummy.

[VasudeVa]

Almost forgot about this game. Sorry bout that brah, be putting it in my bookmarks now. Anyway, I'm liking the discussion so far.

green and Iec seems town versus town, mostly from gut. What's good about the whole squabble is I think you guys just baited lurker scum in your discussion. I'm getting lurker scum vibes from SV.

I'm liking Jack's "I teach theory to newbies". Generally, I believe people who take effort to teach theory is town. Still, not that good a town read, but a slight town read nonetheless. I also share your opinion with Shadow Dancer. Seems like predictable scum. I more predictable move from him, I move votes.

Getting good vibes from Mindgamer so far mostly gut.

Unvote

for now.

[Iecerint]

I think Plum's vote was relatively trivial, and that was the only competition. Lynch all liars is a good heuristic, but there are a handful of cases where it may be reasonable for town to lie (e.g. to misstate details of their PR during a claim to throw off the scum NK).

I'm still confused by why he thought I was lying, but

doesn't matter anymore.

This is the basis of my comment that you understand I prefer Jo at this point. I suppose I may have overstated it, but I didn't see what else you could be referring to.

[Jack]

I also share your opinion with Shadow Dancer. Seems like predictable scum. I more predictable move from him, I move votes.

Why wait?

[VasudeVa]

I also share your opinion with Shadow Dancer. Seems like predictable scum. I more predictable move from him, I move votes.

Why wait?

Hey you know what, you're right. No reason not to. How absent minded of me.

Vote: Shadow Dancer

[Iecerint]

Shadow Dancer, is English your first language?

[Johoohno]

@Johoono: following me in what particular way?

Copying your vote and then when commented on his vote and explanation on SD by you moving on to GiD. I know this isn’t much more than talk so far since he hadn’t read any role, but that is part of what I seriously dislike in game play. (However, at that time he was statistically more likely to be town than scum, I guess.)

@ greenindirt

: I meant alignment, but in this game there doesn’t seem that big of a difference, since role names won’t be revealed upon death However it doesn’t say anything about role revelation, but we’ll know more about that after first lynch. Actually that part will be interesting, I've never played in a game where role names wasn't revealed upon death.

@ Iecerint

: Are you meaning Vas in the post above, otherwise I don’t understand where you got that from?

I’m also amazed why it is discussed whom you trust, rather than whom you find suspicious (Post 55 by Plum and post 60 by Vas). But to be fair Vas mentioned Shadow Dancer as mildly scummy and when commented on that by Jack puts a vote there a few posts later.

[Snow_Bunny]

Mod: VLA for the weekend. I'll try to post if I can, but it's not sure.

~Understood~

[Iecerint]

Shadow Dancer's command of the English language looks like it might be his second language. This is relevant because it might affect how his posts should be interpreted. I'm not sure why you thought I meant Vas. His English seems fine to me.

I don't get how Plum and Vas have discussed who I trust. What do you mean? Post 55 is Plum saying she disagrees with my pre-role PM scumreads, and post 60 is Vasu saying I'm town for nonspecific reasons. The first is the opposite of not discussing who I find suspicious, and the second isn't even related to that dichotomy AFAIK.

You're correct that I am trying to learn more about SD on account of the increased scrutiny.

[greenindirt]

Shadow Dancer's command of the English language looks like it might be his second language. This is relevant because it might affect how his posts should be interpreted.

Oh yeah and english isn't my first language either so please be easy on me. /lies

I don't have much to add to it, but I think some increased pressure on SD might prove worthwhile.

Vote: ShadowDancer

I meant alignment, but in this game there doesn’t seem that big of a difference, since role names won’t be revealed upon death.

I don't see how this make rolefishing any better.

[Iecerint]

It's not a matter of "going easy on him." It's a matter of taking all relevant information into account when analyzing his content.

[Jack]

I'm not liking the feel of this language question stuff. Did you have anything specific about shadowdancer's posts that you would interpret differently if english is his second language? If not, why do you care

right now

?

[Jack]

What's standing out to me here is Iec voting for shadowdancer, then unvoting because of a

null

tell, mentioning that he "hasn't gotten his pm yet", then "getting" his pm a few minutes later (30). I don't understand the reasoning behind the greendirt vote, and don't care to go over it again, but since he switches off it easily it must not have been much.

Basically, if you feel that dice voting is anti-town, I don't see why you'd switch your vote off for a weak tell on someone else, just because the person dice voted in another game.

The role pm stuff might just be my paranoia. I'm feeling like iec could have gotten his pm, realized he was voting his partner and decided that was awkward. Mentioning my avatar looks like an excuse to say he hasn't got his pm yet. And the "english as second language" stuff is just odd, like he's looking for an excuse to discount something scummy that SD said.

[Jack]

Early read is Mindgamer -town (unless someone has meta on him which would indicate he's not very cautious, if at all, as scum).

I don't get having a town read at all at this stage, but where the heck in MG's

two

posts did you get a town read? How has he been "not cautious"?

[Iecerint]

Since the dicerolls are evidently null, SD's post at the top of this page is presumably the basis of the votes. To my eye, to the extent that said post is scummy at all, it is scummy because of its tone rather than its content. If the tone is symptomatic of English not being his first language, then it is not an appropriate basis for scrutiny.

This sort of thing is on my mind because players with weaker command of English have been the subject of largely unjustified wagons in my past (cf. Lazy Neighborhood mafia) that have distracted from scumhunting.

At the time, I thought that the dice-voting was not only anti-town, but also potentially scummy. Your meta information demoted it to merely being anti-town, which made GiD's potentially scummy action supercede it.

It's true that the Mod sent me my PM right after I posted about your avatar. I don't blame you for finding the timing a little suspicious. I will say, though, that I would probably have been thrilled had I learned that I was voting a scumfriend. I like distancing early D1 as scum (cf. OpenSource mafia). [/WIFOM]

[Jack]

That response sounds tense and terribly restrained.

And the votes on SD are clearly:

1) my vote--"scum love to say this"--content, not tone
2) Vas's vote--SD made a predictable scum move--content, not tone
3) Greenindirt--pressure vote

So it had to have been

you

that found his tone scummy, no one else was talking about it. Where did that come from?