mini 943- Greek Mythology! (And the winner is... ?)

[VasudeVa]

Almaster GM Mini-Meta review: Done in ISO, primarily checked for tunneling patterns.

Scum, Newbie 795
Scum, Popcorn Mafia <-Bad meta sample, no votes, dies early. No other scum games to look at though.
Town, Space Station Mafia
Town, Open Source

Scum: Hard Tunnels, with no attempt at confirmation via questioning.
Town: Soft Tunnels, converses before confirming.

Yes, he replaced in. Still, I dislike the lack of conversation and lack of self-confirmation that was VERY evident in his town game. And there is quite a difference in his defensiveness here and defensiveness in his town game. His town defense is self-defense, his scum defense is make-someone-else-look-scummy defense.

That's all. Can we lynch now please?

[ooba]

That's all. Can we lynch now please?

Correction. Almaster - can we have a claim please?

[ooba]

Quick question - You seem to have a much stronger case on Plum - why me over Plum?

Plum is obviously still a valid candidate but if I'm the only one seeing that and/or voting her it won't be enough come lynch or deadline.

But you’ve actually outgrown her in scumminess since then. And below you’ll find why:

Ok. Let me stop you right there. You agree that the case against Plum (as outlined by many points in your ISO:Pst 14) was stronger than your case on me (tunneling point SV on me in ISO:Post 15\Post 281). But you still vote for me over plum in post 281.

a) I am not sure why you quoted the bolded part (above) in 281 but are you implying that you voted for me because there wont be enough traction for lynch by deadline for Plum? -> This is incorrect since I had zero votes at the time you voted for me. At least Plum had a vote from Flava Flave.
b) "But you’ve actually outgrown her in scumminess since then." -> So you're telling me that you voted me over Plum in post 281 because of the 'scummy' post 316 I was going to make in the future. Never knew we had time traveling gods in the Greek pantheon!

Post 26 - Johoohno - Odd. Why the need to single out Iecerint when some other players hadn't posted at all?

And this is what I wrote in post 26: “I'm a fan of being eager, however, I expect a new post from Iecerint very soon to help us read his role and not only his mood.”

Perhaps you have noticed while reading through this game that I am no fan of posting before knowing your role, hence post 26.

And as the game had just started prodding for others who weren’t there yet seemed pretty pointless.

No I did not notice this - any other place in the game where someone else posted without knowing their role and you singled them out for it?

My top candidate:
Joh
- Posts a lot of opinions, ask questions - but in general hasn't taken a stance

1) Is asking questions and saying your opinion bad scum hunting methods in your eyes? Because I find it my surest way of getting info and a general feel of the other players and, in the end, finding scum. Are you saying that you don’t know who I find suspicious? Did you read post 281 for instance?

Asking questions is a very good tool. But I find that you've asked questions and post what you felt was scummy - but never took a stance on who you felt was scummiest enough. (Barring ISO:Post 15).

*No votes on D1 except RVS and mine

2) People vote differently, I for one, aren’t vote hopping that much, whereas others might switch vote the moment anyone new does something remotely scummy. And I hope you have realized while reading the game that the first vote has become more and more firm due to my read of Plum’s actions all through the game?

Fair enough.

* "If those called upon above for further participation respond to that request

I will present my top three list on my suspiociometer shortly.

" - Now who is trying to limit information on D1 for the town?

3) In what way am I limiting information when I ask those who haven’t posted much to step in and give their view of things?

a) I never said you calling people out for not posting is limiting information
b) What stops you from posting your top three or even top one suspect at that time and then revising that list once the lurkers post?

- When he finally has to make a choice of which player to lynch, chooses one on which he has the weakest case

Look above - you still haven't answer this. (Me over Plum)

[AlmasterGM]

Claim:

Name: Ares
Wincon: Scum dead OR hades gone and town controls the three counters.
Power: Vig
Super power: Unstoppable Vig

Willing to Vig based on town consensus.

Don't lynch, k thx.

P.S. Meta is a total misrep. 1) I've played in waaaaay more games than VV said and 2) The "no votes, dies early" comment on my Popcorn scum meta is a complete lie; I was alive for three days and there was more content there than in this game.

[AlmasterGM]

P.S. If you REALLY want, I'd even super self Vig.

[Flava Flave]

^ So...which wagons are you terming "crapwagons"?

I specifically meant Shattered in response to Chronos, but Shadow is the same thing.

Hmm. I don't like Vas calling everyone on his wagon scum.

Am I to understand that your vote from post 23 which you explained later in your next post (post 119) is the reason for your vote on Ooba now? This is ridiculous, you vote a replacement for his predecessors opinions, something you reacted upon on page 1. Spit up a better reason Flava, if there is one.

Scumtells don'ts get erased because of the page number they occur on or because a different name is in the slot.

Unvote, Vote Vas

[VasudeVa]

Nice try. No, you did not last long in Popcorn mafia, you had a severe lax of contribution there. Granted, the setup was different so I discounted that one. Checked your wiki for your games, chose 2 random town games and the only two available scum games for your analysis and the difference between your tunneling was very evident, even when you were lurky and/or not. And here you are being make-someone-else look scummy defensive again.

Here's what I think of your claim. First, mod given fake claim is a possibility. Second, I dislike the idea of vigilantes in general. Third, You'll probably waste a vig on me if you survive, so I won't be unvoting k.

Although that's not the sole reason: Why would SV lie about the hyperbole when he went "Lying is anti-town" just before that? He could have said 'it was a typo!' or 'i confused my games lol' or some other half-assed but plausible excuse. It's just weird though, what would he gain from lying about that?

And your hard tunneling here is bad and will get more mislynches than correct lynches.

[ooba]

Unvote

I personally think you should "Unstoppable Kill" yourself. (It avoids any WIFOM situation on Day 2)

Ares was not a good I'd put in the "good" category but vig for the violent god does make sense.

Anyway, that gets us another lynch. We have by my calculation about 48 hours to lynch? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Vas, I think you should claim now. Going back to read who else is a good lynch candidate.

[Jack]

"unstoppable kill" is usually a scum power, not a town power. Get past the doctor to kill the cop, etc.

[Jack]

Unvote

I personally think you should "Unstoppable Kill" yourself. (It avoids any WIFOM situation on Day 2)

Ares was not a good I'd put in the "good" category but vig for the violent god does make sense.

Anyway, that gets us another lynch. We have by my calculation about 48 hours to lynch? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Vas, I think you should claim now. Going back to read who else is a good lynch candidate.

Scum points for ooba. You surely don't think almaster will kill himself if he's scum. But you claimed to think he was scum before. Why not keep your vote on instead of asking for the suicide? So you can get Vas to claim?

[Jack]

hahahaha

ooba, your double post shows a bit of the editing you did. Why did you cut out " Going back to read who else is a good lynch candidate. "?

~Oops... I am so sorry. I deleted that post thinking it was a double post. I did not notice it was edited. Just confirming that that post did exist.~

[Iecerint]

Ares is a total douche in Greek mythology. He's portrayed as stupid and mean. It would make sense that he would be scum. His Roman version is quite a bit nicer and more respectable, though.

Moreover, does anyone play God of War? It would not surprise me if the Mod's interest in the flavor were partially predicated by interest in said game. Ares is the villain in that game, though I haven't played it myself and so can't make judgments about whether Hades has made an appearance. [/flavor outguess]

On the other hand, it's not proper play to lynch a claimed vig. That's the kind of role that scum will take out on their own without outside assistance.

[VasudeVa]

Hmm. I don't like Vas calling everyone on his wagon scum.

How is this a scumtell? How is this different from suspecting people on someone elses wagon?

If you're town, of course you have to suspect your wagon because one of them is driving home a mislynch. Scum can use the wagon on him to cast suspicion on someone else. That's a null-tell at best.

[VasudeVa]

And I agree, ooba just went up exponentially in scummyness. I'm perfectly fine with his lynch if we can mobilize in the short time we have left. Writing him off will confirm some of the players with fluctuating reads in my list as well.

@Iec: Ares is the main villain, Kratos is given powers by Aphrodite, Zeus, Poseidon and Hades. And I agree, Ares is definitely up there in the list of scummy olympians. Since we have 12 players and there are 12 olympians, we can assume that most of the players are from that list although we'll have to add 1 non-olympian figure due to Zeus' death pregame.

[ooba]

Unvote

I personally think you should "Unstoppable Kill" yourself. (It avoids any WIFOM situation on Day 2)

Ares was not a good I'd put in the "good" category but vig for the violent god does make sense.

Anyway, that gets us another lynch. We have by my calculation about 48 hours to lynch? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Vas, I think you should claim now. Going back to read who else is a good lynch candidate.

Scum points for ooba. You surely don't think almaster will kill himself if he's scum. But you claimed to think he was scum before. Why not keep your vote on instead of asking for the suicide? So you can get Vas to claim?

We lynch him tomorrow if he does not kill himself - this is the correct play if someone claims vig - esp. since he's claimed "unstoppable now" - there's no way he's not scum if he doesn't kill himself. (I am discounting a townie who does not follow this directive - since he suggested it himself)

Apart from Almaster, the consensus was on Vas. Since I had a townie read on him - was going to go back and read on other players, but thought it would be a contradiction and lessen the pressure on him if I asked for claim and was going to go back and read on other players. Surprised that it came in the first post cause I deleted it as soon as I wrote it..

[Iecerint]

More flavor speculation: twelve players in this game and the flavor would seem to map on pretty well to the eleven surviving Olympians + Hades as player slots. This would imply that the scum may be fakeclaimless.

On the other hand, there're some different canons for the 12 (Hestia, Hephaestus, Herackles, Dionysus, and Asclepius are variously sometimes included), which could possibly maybe account for scum having been given fakeclaims.

[Flava Flave]

Yeah, Alma unstoppable kills himself tonight or I'll be voting him tomorrow. Jack is right that it's a more common scum role, but that doesn't mean it's impossible as town. Either way, there is enough suspicion surrounding Alma that unless he can be confirmed as town, we don't want him alive in a potential LYLO scenario. (edit: I see Ooba agrees)

Iec/Vas, stop with the flavor stuff and look at his play. Not that it really matters if he self-superkills.

How is this a scumtell? How is this different from suspecting people on someone elses wagon?

If you're town, of course you have to suspect your wagon because one of them is driving home a mislynch. Scum can use the wagon on him to cast suspicion on someone else. That's a null-tell at best.

Meh. 1-2 scum on the wagon I can see if you are town. But calling 3 out of the 4 who were voting you at the time all scum is a little too much IMO.

Unvote, Vote Ooba

. GoGo Gadget NewLynch.

Iec, stop helping scum fakeclaim.

[DeathNote]

Vote Count

VasudeVa- Snow_Bunny, Shadow Dancer, AlmasterGM, LordChronos (L-3)
AlmasterGM- Jack, VasudeVa, Iecerint, Andrius, Johoohno (L-2)
Andrius- Plum (L-6)
ooba- Flava Flav (L-6)

Not Voting:

ooba

With 12 alive, its 7 to lynch.

Deadline is April 12 at 10:00 P.M.

~DEADLINE IS 34 HOURS AWAY~

[Iecerint]

If I were townAlma superkiller, I'd sooner take a random shot than self-kill. Just sayin.

FF, nothing would make me happier than to see VV claim one of the sketchy Olympians.

Alma, is your SuperKill RB-proof AND Doc-proof, or just one of those?

[Plum]

Here's what I think of your claim. First, mod given fake claim is a possibility. Second, I dislike the idea of vigilantes in general. Third, You'll probably waste a vig on me if you survive, so I won't be unvoting k.

No. Lynching claimed Vig Day 1 is usually a bad idea. I'm not seeing any exception here. Anyway, I dislike the reaction to the claim here, smells of self-preservation only. One is of course a given, but it's not a good argument absent other evidence that this is in fact a safeclaim. Second is not alignment indicative, and Vigs can be very useful. Third reason is self-preservation-above-getting-rid-of-scum motivated, overall. What if Alm is cleared overnight? Then we have a confirmed-Town Vig. That's an oversimplified scenario, but the point remains that lynching a claimed Vig Day 1 , even one who seems quite scummy (and absent the claim I'd probably have rather lynched him) is a bad idea, and I've thought so ever since it actually happened in Mafia Dodgeball, which I modded.

Given that, the unstoppable kill thing (while I disagree with Jack that it's scum-indicative, because a Vig who could get through, say, a Godfather's kill-immunity would obviously be a useful Town power) makes Alm more dangerous. If I could have my cake and eat it too, I'd lynch Andrius today and make Alm superkill Vas tonight (or, I guess, vice-versa). Point is he should use up his superkill TONIGHT. But. I'm not sure how to ensure he does.

And that might put everything right back on square one.

Alm, if there's a way to prove you've used the Unstoppa-kill tonight, use it tonight and do so. If not, the best option might be to shoot yourself with it, and at least we'll be able to kill two bird with one stone.

Unvote; Vote: VasudeVa

[VasudeVa]

Self preservation is a weak scumtell at best. It also works with PRs, particularly strong ones. Since we are all PRs, I don't see how that makes me scummy.

But since I'm top wagon again, I guess it's claim time right? Or does anyone disagree?

[Iecerint]

Actually, Alma, scratch that question. I figured out how it would work for myself.

I think it's very unlikely that Ares is a fakeclaim. It would be a mean fakeclaim. If he is scum, he is probably Arescum.

Unvote

. I support VV's claim.

[VasudeVa]

Aphrodite, Goddess of Love.
Role: Cop. I can seduce anyone and reveal their alignment.
Super Power: Whoever hammers me dies(From madness, apparently. Coz I'm all pretty-like).

So, if we have a doc(and since we are all power roles that is very likely), he and I can do the doc-cop combo and kill scum. And this is why I am very defensive because hammerers are probably town since I have grown to believe that scum are unlikelier to hammer than town(probability-wise)

Well, if you still want to hammer me, nominate a scummy hammerer so that my super can at least be useful. I'm fine with: SD, ooba, Flave and Plum in that order.

[Jack]

There is no way we should lynch VV.

Almaster is the lynch. I don't care that he's claimed vig and the "proper play with a claimed vig, yadda yadda". If you're the vig, you don't tunnel on one player because you have to

figure out

who you want to kill at night. Ideally you question as many people as you can. He hasn't played like a vig at all, he claimed scummy flavor, and he claimed a scummy ability.

If we let him live today he will most likely use his unstoppable kill to get through the doc protection and kill VV.

[Plum]

Dangit dangit dangit.

Claimed Cop > claimed Vig.

Claimed 1-shot Super Vig = can't trust with claimed Cop out.

Unvote; Vote: Almaster