Mini 810: Infection! Mini - Game over!

[charter]

/confirm

[charter]

vote shotty

I don't think we should ask people close to a lynch for a claim in this game.

[charter]

Yes, that is true Mokina. But if all of us were to decide now that it's a bad idea to claim, then hopefully any townie about to be lynched would respect that and not draw out possible counterclaims. From what I gather, it's entirely possible that we have multiples of some of the roles or none at all. I don't want any "claim scientist" then "counter, I'm scientist" and we proceed to lynch them both.

Not saying we have to do this, but it makes sense in my head.

@Kelly, I meant that I don't think people about to be lynched should claim, they should just be lynched.

[charter]

I somewhat agree about the claim thing, its problematic for the PRs to claim when a counter-claim makes it a 50/50 lynch and then the liar kills himself that night and we lose out. Still, a 50/50 chance is better than just going down isn't it?

What I'm worried about is if both of those 50s are town, and we chain lynch them.

Mokina, we don't know if there are any scientists or bodyguards.

The bodyguard kill going through before an infection changes things though. My original assumption was that the infection still went through. Xyl's ruling makes it a seemingly impossible risk for scum to take. With this I think that claiming could be beneficial (though I still think anyone counterclaiming would be a bad idea).

[charter]

Shotty and Kid are my current top two suspects.

I'm still in favor of no counterclaims.

[charter]

Not that I don't have reasons, and I do plan on giving them, but why did people make a fuss when I said I was suspicious of Shotty and Kid but didn't give reasons, but when BM votes without giving a reason, no one questioned him?

I don't see how NL is remotely a good idea. Won't be supporting it.

[charter]

At Yos Beach Bash. Will post later.

[charter]

Sorry! Will catch up and post today, been very busy!

[charter]

I'm suspicious of Shotty for 39 where he says "I'm saying while it may not be a bad idea to claim, it IS a bad idea to counter-claim as town since we don't know how many of each role is out there" which is a direct contradiction to what he said in 31 with his talk about a counterclaim giving us a 50/50 chance of lynching scum (which it doesn't) being good, but which requires counterclaims. I really have no idea what brought this around other than looking like he wants to agree with me or Mokina.

Suspicious of Kid for saying literally nothing until being called out for lurking, at which time he makes a prompt appearence to say more nothing. Upon rereading, Kelly Chen pretty much in to this category as well. Kid Know Nothing doesn't really fit here anymore, Kelly still does.

malthusis and Kelly Chen are my two other suspects.

veerus continues pushing his no lynch idea, which isn't a good one at all. It's impossible to win games without lynching.

As for a serious suspect at this point, on a reread, im pretty happy to run up Shotty to the Body, with Charter as his likely partner. Might be a bit early for distancing, but i dont see anyone else obvious at this point, and 1 of Charter's posts made me a bit wary if i recall.

Why am I his partner?

Shotty wayyyyy overreacts to two measly votes in 121.

I don't even know what to make of PP, that idea was absurd.

Kelly's 167 makes me even warier about her. Just unvotes, says a bunch of stuff, and doesn't commit to anything. Looks like she's waiting to see what the town wants to do before she acts.
She does vote later, but her post still said a whole lot of nothing.

LOS
Shotty
Kelly
malthusis/PP

[charter]

Charter is either misunderstanding me or misinterpreting me on purpose. If you read 31 I said we had a 50/50 shot of taking a scum out if SCUM counter-claimed a legitimate town claim. Charter posted in 37 that he was afraid if town counter-claimed a legitimate town claim we would lynch two power roles. In 39 I say I agree with him (meaning 37 that we could lynch two PRs if a real PR counter-claims) that counter-claiming is a bad idea, but I still disagreed that claiming as a whole was a bad idea. We can judge each claim as they come, but counter-claiming probably wouldn't help us. There's no contradiction between my posts, I remain in favor of claiming as a PR instead of letting yourself be lynched and I defer to Charter that counter-claiming is probably not a good idea.

I did indeed misunderstand you.

See my response to BM, being emotive isn't a scum-tell, it means I'm involved and I care about what's happening. Two votes with no explanations is stupid, now that the reasons have been presented I can respond logically. If you vote with little to no logic you can't expect a defense that has logic either.

My vote was still on from page one. Your overreaction didn't seem legitimate, so I'm still suspicious of you for how you reacted to one vote without reasoning. Two votes with no reasons is not stupid.

However, Kelly overtakes you in scuminess since my main reason for being suspicious of you is due to my poor reading.

unvote, vote Kelly Chen

[charter]

Because I thought he was contradicting what he had just said, but I read it wrong. Since that was the main reason I was suspicious of him, and it's not right, he moves down in scumminess.

[charter]

Because I thought he was contradicting what he had just said, but I read it wrong. Since that was the main reason I was suspicious of him, and it's not right, he moves down in scumminess.

Apparently Kelly is still scummy enough to vote though, so please go on with why Kelly is suspicious.

For the reasons I already stated. She lurks, then pops in whenever someone calls out lurkers. Why are you interrogating me about my suspects but not her, when she was even vaguer in her post?

[charter]

No, read what I am saying. I'm voting her because she lurks, but then posts when someone calls attention to lurking.

[charter]

You're purposefully ignoring half of what I'm saying. I was very clear that it was lurking then popping back in when someone calls attention to lurkers. You ignored that last part many times. Why?

In case you haven't figured it out, lurking in this game is a wonderful strategy for scum. I find it very suspcious that she cares that others see her as lurking (though I don't think anyone said they think she's scum for lurking) and then posts again in response, normally not saying very much in her posts.

If I was suspicious of people just for lurking, PP would be at the top of my list.

[charter]

Kise, who are the two people you find most suspicious currently and why?

[charter]

I could go for a Kise lynch too.

[charter]

Go for it then.

Unvote; Vote: charter

Ha! I dare you to be OMGUSy.

Just curious, but is there any reason/s behind this vote, or is it just for the hell of it?

From my experience, BM scum lurks hardcore.

[charter]

Sorry... I missed the RVS and had to get that out of my system.

So was your vote serious or not? You didn't answer my question at all.

So, care to explain what it is about Post 229 that makes me suspicious?

Sure. You start out by complaining you can only list two suspects, but then you don't even list two. You mention tajo's name, but you didn't answer my question very well at all. You basically said you don't find anyone suspicious. Your answers to my questions were all just sidesteps, and you avoided actually naming anyone that you supposedly find scummy. The post was very scummy.
Incidently, I do want the two people you think most likely to be scum and why.

Really, why isnt fallen angel not even near to be lynched yet?

I want everyones opinions on this guy.

Kaythxbay.

Will work on it.

[charter]

I don't really think either fallen angel or veerus should be lynched. veerus has had some not helpful ideas, but I don't think he falls into the realm of scummy yet. fallen angel hasn't done hardly anything, and his vote for PP was bad, but I don't think necessarily scummy. I'm not really sold on anyone enough just yet to lynch though.

[charter]

unvote, vote Kise

My Kelly vote was never very solid, and Kise is continually rising in scumminess.
His latest strawman of my accusation of him sidestepping actually giving opinions on anyone by dismissing it as "petty" isn't helping. I also find it fishy that now tajo is fine, and he's suspicious of FA and veerus who seem like they're coming under fire now. All that he says about them is 'I don't like this' after quoting their post. He doesn't explain what he doesn't like, and is still trying to use "gut" with nothing to back it up.

[charter]

@charter - If by 'fine' you are meaning to say that I think Tajo is town, I don't. I never concretely believed Tajo was scum in the 1st place; I mentioned having a weird vibe from him, and merely theorized what kind of mindset he had when he made that list of his. Did you expect me to have tunnel-vision with Tajo? Besides the fact that I was not 100% on his motives (not until after questioning him), I don't see what your big fuss is about me lowering suspicion on another player. It happens. Deal with it.

Read me in iso and you'll see in Post 2 how I feel about [veerus'] no lynching. Post 3 states that I have nothing strong to go by, so Tajo's weird vibes was all I had. Post 7 is a response to Tajo after he asked everyone their thoughts on FA, so I did an iso-review on him and that led up to my vote against him & other subsequent posts concerning him.

Also, when you get a chance to comment on your opinion of FA, could you also list your top two suspects? I know in Post 243 you say you're not sold on anyone, but two seems to be your magic number. So, who are your two?

I don't think FA is scummy. My top two suspects are you at number one, and Kelly at number two. BM is number three.

Lost in translation.

I don't know what else to talk about atm.

Co-sign. Mainly waiting on some responses.

More reason to be suspicious of you. I don't think you've interacted with/mentioned half the people here. How can you complain about nothing to discuss when you haven't discussed with a lot of the players in this game?

[charter]

Will be V/LA from wednesday to next tuesday. Might have access, might not.

[charter]

I am pretty sure Kise is scum. He needs more votes. Incidentally, we need to stop with this two votes on everyone bs, or else nothing is ever going to get done. We need to determine a lynch candidate well before deadline.

[charter]

Forgot to address this:

I don't think you've interacted with/mentioned half the people here. How can you complain about nothing to discuss when you haven't discussed with a lot of the players in this game?

What is it with you and numbers, seriously? There are a dozen players here and I'm fairly certain I've spoken to a decent amount. Don't try to slap gristle onto your case. Meat, or GTFO.

The players I haven't [directly] spoken to gave me no reason to spark a convo that would expose them as possible-scum. Kelly & KKN were trying to understand what the other was saying. I had no reason to get in-between that. Others are having discussions with each other in order to understand the other person's independent mindset. Is there a particular reason I should feel contrived to corroborate others? I'm already having exchanges with others, you included. Scum aren't great in number, and I've got FA & veerus in my sights, so I have no reason to unjustly instigate anyone else if I feel like those 2 are the Infected.

The numbers don't mean anything, it's the fact that you're posting about there being nothing to do, when there is stuff to do. It's active lurking.

[charter]

I'm agreeing with tajo here. No way he was scum yesterday (idiotic to bus like that here) and I think he was most likely to be vaccinated. I don't see how scum can bank on there being no/idiot scientist, so I don't think they would have risked trying to infect him, so I think he's town.

Going to read up what I missed then vote.

[charter]

Catching up since post 285.

320- RV names malthusis and FA as probable scum. This kind of makes me think he was town yesterday, but now I'd think he's a good candidate for scum.

Since FA was scum, I can't imagine Kise was. I also don't give Kise a good chance at being infected last night.

A third scum I'd wager is BM.

381- Good post by tajo. I too got the feeling that KNK tried to get Kise lynched rather than FA. However, I'm not sure that makes KNK likely to be scum. Bussing is dumb because the scum don't have to withstand pressure the whole game, just make it through one day. I think he could easily have kept his vote on Kise and let FA infect someone at night if he was scum. (Of course, he could have bussed too, but it seems like a severely suboptimal strategy)

382- I don't see why we should assume there's just one scum left. Two seems too low given the possibility of scum easily dying by attempting to infect (scientist and test subjects, not to mention favorable vig rulings). I get the impression BM is scum and wants us to think the game is starting over (which it isn't). I'd wager there's still two scum out there.

395- This throws a wrench into my BM and RV scum theory. Regardless, me thinking RV is scum is speculation that he was infected last night (which isn't very solid at all).

Guard got infected? Guard didn't want to shoot someone when they weren't sure of alignment? How does the phrasing of the mod's post imply no security guard? It's pretty clear that Malthisus died of infection according to the death post, I'm pretty sure somewhere in D1 we talked about the guard not randomly shooting people if he wasn't sure.

I don't think we did. I think all guards we have should be firing at will. They have double the chance of killing scum in this game. Either they can hit the actual scumbag, or hit the person the scumbag was going to infect. Either way, there's one less slot filled by an infected player, a dead townie is a negligible price to pay for the chance of it at this stage in the game. Since there was no guard kill last night, I don't think we have a guard.

398- Scummy post by BM, tries to dismiss RV's legitimate points by laughing/joking about them. Also, he now claims his two scum theory to be law and anyone arguing against it to be scum. This is absurd because it's based on pure speculation and dumb because it doesn't err on the side of caution.

page 17 - didn't read the back and forth text war between BM and RV.

433- This seems to come out of nowhere from The Replacement. Also seems to have dropped everything else to bring us that.

Vote Battle Mage

I think he was probably scum with malthusis and FA yesterday. His declaration of people thinking three scum are scum is craplogic. He lurked his whole way yesterday, though escaped most suspicion. Also wasn't voting for FA yesterday (I wasn't either) but since FA was scum, this looks pretty bad for him.

[charter]

unvote

Dumb to claim with just three votes, but it will be easy for him to prove tonight if he's telling the truth. BM, why did you not kill someone last night? Any breadcrumbs you left?

I really can't think of a reason to vote for someone right now other than just for the hell of it.

[charter]

I think he went with a safe option. I think his most logic reasoning would be to :

a)Infect someone more experienced than him.

b)Infect someone that wouldnt be targeted for vaccination.

I know there are some that fit this group. I dont think its basically day 1 again since there are some people less likely to be infected.

I agree with this. I originally thought that you would be infected but then I remembered about scientists which would make you the #1 vaccination target. I think we're likely looking for someone who seemed town-ish D1.

What does it mean that there was likely no guard kill? I can think of 2 scenarios:
1) guard got lucky and killed another infected, meaning mod's post is a bit misleading
2) we have no guard.. I'm inclined to believe that this is the case due to the phrasing of the mod post.

3) The guard forgot they were a guard. *facepalm* lol

BM

I breadcrumbed the fact that i forgot to submit a kill. lol

BM

Yeah. I figured that's what that was...

vote The Replacement

Since he seemed to ignore BM's claim and is still going on why we should lynch BM, when he's perfectly confirmable, and will even live to tomorrow if there's a scientist.

[charter]

Dumb to claim with just three votes, but it will be easy for him to prove tonight if he's telling the truth.

Considering the mechanics, I don't think this is a game where people proving their role through night actions is always the best idea.

Missed this. If there's a scientist, then they protect BM tonight. If BM is indeed a guard, then someone else will die (most likely a townie, but whatever) confirming him for tomorrow (plus the added benefit of him hopefully shooting an infected). If he's scum, there will just be an infection, and we lynch him tomorrow. Of course, all this hinges on a scientist, so hopefully there is one (I'm willing to risk it anyhow).

[charter]

Well, if he shoots an infected, he's not confirmed, but so what? Either he gets confirmed, or he shoots infected, it's win win. I don't get how you can still argue for his lynch.

[charter]

Actually... the kill should show up as getting shot rather than die by infection if he kills an infected. Having a guaranteed confirmed town even for a day is beneficial. And if he's lying it will mean a guaranteed scum lynch tomorrow.

Unvote

Going to say anything other than just unvoting? It looks like you've seen the light on BM, but who is your top suspect now?

[charter]

Well, it was also in case you're scum and trying to just buy time until tonight, if you get protected and you're infected and try to infect someone tonight, then you obviously aren't a guard and we lynch you tomorrow. But whatever, not directing power role actions is a good point.

[charter]

The scientist works like a roleblocker if they target someone who is infected, right? Or am I misunderstanding the role?

[charter]

I could go for a RV lynch today perhaps.

[charter]

Upon going over Shotty's posts today, I got a bad feeling that he might be an infected (his play yesterday leads me to believe he was infected last night). He's posted a few times today, but largely said nothing of much importance.

Also, this post seems like he panicked that malthusis's infection didn't go through

Guard got infected? Guard didn't want to shoot someone when they weren't sure of alignment? How does the phrasing of the mod's post imply no security guard? It's pretty clear that Malthisus died of infection according to the death post, I'm pretty sure somewhere in D1 we talked about the guard not randomly shooting people if he wasn't sure.

This post is probably a little bit of a stretch, but his play today has been just trying to scrape by.

[charter]

Upon going over Shotty's posts today, I got a bad feeling that he might be an infected (his play yesterday leads me to believe he was infected last night). He's posted a few times today, but largely said nothing of much importance.

Also, this post seems like he panicked that malthusis's infection didn't go through

Guard got infected? Guard didn't want to shoot someone when they weren't sure of alignment? How does the phrasing of the mod's post imply no security guard? It's pretty clear that Malthisus died of infection according to the death post, I'm pretty sure somewhere in D1 we talked about the guard not randomly shooting people if he wasn't sure.

This post is probably a little bit of a stretch, but his play today has been just trying to scrape by.

At the beginning of your post you say you think it likely he was infected last night based upon his day one play. Then you go on to say that today that it looks like he was concerned with whether or not Malthusis' infetion was successful, which means he had to have begun the game as an infected for that to be the case. It can't be both.

Yeah, I just checked the infected role PM and apparently they can talk all the time, so if malthusis's infection went through, he'd know if he was infected. I thought it worked like most cults where they can't talk with the new recruit until the next night, so my theory isn't true (though Shotty is still not posting at all today).

Yeah I was about to point that out, that doesn't make sense Charter. Do you think I was infected last night or do you think I've been scum from the start? You can't have both and this smells like role-fishing to me.

What about my post was rolefishing at all?

Even just hypothetically, how could someone's play yesterday suggest that?

Find it scummy today, but his stuff from yesterday wasn't very scummy.

I could go for a RV lynch today perhaps.

Why?

Because your theory that veerus was scum with malthusis and fallen angel yesterday makes zero sense at all. You've tunneled on veerus ridiculously hard and really haven't even mentioned his lurking as reasons he's scum (which I think is more concrete than his NL plan). His voting for FA yesterday pretty much ensured FA would get lynched, when I'm pretty sure he could have voted for Kise and either got Kise lynched or a no lynch, both far superior to FA being lynched if veerus was scum.

I still think BM is the scummiest, but meh. Still waiting on The Replacement and something from him, since his thoughts on this game just stopped abruptly.

[charter]

veerus doesn't look like scum, because look at malthusis's post 341. He deliberately tries to lynch someone besides FA. WHY OH WHY would he pick his other buddy veerus over FA?

Also, another really strong reason to support three scum in this game is malthusis's post 358.

With Mokina gone, me V/LA, FA not going to vote himself, and malthusis not going to vote FA, the game was left with 8 people and they needed 7 votes to lynch. BM hadn't posted anything worth posting in like two weeks before deadline, so that would mean veerus bussed his buddy to a lynch, when he could have forced a no lynch. I disagree that FA would have been lynched without veerus's earlyish vote.

I'm sorry, but veerus does not look like an original scumbag, and I think it's unlikely that he got infected last night.

[charter]

For all I know he could have got infected last night, but if I was scum, it's not what I would have done. I can come up with a theory for why any player got infected, but they don't hold any water.

The reason I'm saying it makes no sense that he was scum yesterday, is because RV is still pushing that veerus is original scum, which he's been doing the entire game, and which I'm pretty sure is wrong. It makes RV look like a slightly more likely to be an infected candidate than the rest of you.

[charter]

Do we have a deadline?

Can we get a prod on The Replacement

[charter]

Unvote, Vote: Charter

Defence of Veerus seems rather reluctant. I think he's looking for a mislynch.

BM

lolwut
Are you saying I'm trying to look like I'm defending veerus but hoping he still gets lynched? You realize I'm quashing the arguments of the only person who is voicing suspicion/voting veerus, he's not even doing it (though I can't imagine why).

[charter]

no. im saying you are defending Veerus because he is obvtown, and you have to play believably. But you have twice expressed reluctance to state people are town, which is very scummy.

BM

Fair enough.

[charter]

I think there's two left, since starting with three makes more sense to me balance wise and because of post 358.

[charter]

I noticed it when I made post 495. I was going over malthusis's posts to see if there was a connection to veerus.

[charter]

That's a tough one. BM is by far the scummiest person, but I don't really have any reason to doubt his claim.

[charter]

No, I think that comment was thrown in to save his ass, as in he knew there were three scum, but he wasn't supposed to. I don't see any reason for him to make us think there are three scum if there aren't.

[charter]

Request prod/replacement for The Replacement

[charter]

I already said I don't have any reason to doubt it, so I believe it.

[charter]

Has the idea of BM lying to save his ass for one day before suiciding crossed your mind?

Yeah, but I'm actually banking on there being a guard since there wasn't one in the marathon day game, and if I was modding, I'd use the role at least once and I feel like Xyl would probably do the same.

[charter]

Actually, if BM is lying and there is a real guard (or even if he's telling the truth and there's another guard) then the other guard is going to shoot him tonight and we won't have to worry about it any more.

[charter]

MOD

Please prod/replace/something to the following players:
Kid Know Nothing (last post Thu Jul 30, 2009 22:43:17)
Kise (last post Tue Jul 28, 2009 19:34:19)
The Replacement (last post Fri Jul 31, 2009 15:05:59)

Thank you

I'm pm'ing this to Xyl as well. I don't really know what to do with half the players gone.

[charter]

Not before The Replacement shows back up and I grill him.

[charter]

MOD, any update on replacement situations?

[charter]

For fucks sake

Request prods on veerus and Shotty, last posts four days ago

WHY AREN'T PEOPLE POSTING?

Question for everyone

so you have something to post. Who do you want to lynch today and why?

Right now I'm thinking The Replacement since I am pretty sure he is the third original scum. There are numerous reasons I am almost willing to lynch him even before a replacement (oh the irony) comes.

His predecessor was not on the FA lynch.
His first post of today (397) said absolutely nothing.
He doesn't unvote BM after his claim (448) and in fact goes on about how BM is scummy (with vague reasons such as "it looks to me like you are trying to appear more helpful than you actually are", completely ignoring the claim).
(445) He just unvotes BM and leaves us hanging. I don't believe he's mentioned a single person other than BM.

I also just went over Mokina's posts. She was totally, and 100% guaranteed scum yesterday. Look at the no mention AT ALL of either malthusis or FA. All she did was buddy up (numerous instances) and vote for lurkers. Every time she voted, it was just on a lurker, no questions for them to answer, nothing. She never tried to find anyone's alignment or do much of anything, just skirting by.

[charter]

Mokina also never voted the malthusis lurker, though he lurked as hard as anyone.

[charter]

So, back to my question, who do you want to lynch today and why?

[charter]

I think the biggest reason we should stop talking about who BM should target is because then scum won't target the same person as him. Thankfully at least he seems to realize this.

[charter]

...Why do you think veerus could be original scum?
Why could I be original scum?

[charter]

I wasn't asking you, I was asking Kelly Chen, though it's my fault for not making that more obvious.

veerus is completely and totally 100% not an original scum. People need to get this through their heads. If malthusis ran with veerus's NL plan, then it's because he saw a good opportunity present itself and he jumped on that, not supporting a buddy's idea.

[charter]

You asked her a question, sure. But being that it was posted publicly, I went and did some iso reading on you myself, rather than wait around for KC to voice her opinion. I'd like to compare with whatever she has to say as well. Though I did not tell you beforehand that I believed you could be original scum, the thought is still there. Asking Kelly is like blindly asking me, since her & I share a suspicion. So why not have me answer my version as well?

I will educate you on mafia for the future. If someone asks someone a question, you DO NOT answer it before they give their answer. You influence their answer. If you want to voice your opinion or compare answers, you wait until the person the question is originally addressed to answers it.

Asking Kelly a question and asking you a question are nothing alike. I'm not looking for your answer, I'm looking for hers. You didn't make the comment that I could be original scum, whereas she did. I wanted to know why she thinks I could be original scum. I knew perfectly well that I am a highly likely original scum candidate because I was not on the FA lynch and I repeatedly said I didn't think FA was scum. Now, you've answered the question for her, so I don't get to see what her answer was when she made that post. She could have come up with some crazy reason, or she could have had the likely one, but now we don't know.

Now, my question to her wasn't exactly an important one, but I was interested in seeing if she said something besides I wasn't on the FA lynch.

Mokina never mentioned FA or malthusis, whereas I did. These aren't the same situation at all.

[charter]

charter are you specifically asking why you or veerus could be

original

scum?

In that case it's an easy question, I think you and especially veerus would have been poor recruitment choices. You because your D1 suspicions appear to have sucked.

There are good points against veerus being scum at all, and I don't have anything conclusive on you either.


Atm I want to get this Mokina read out of the way and get to bed.

Ok, just because we would have been poor recruitment choices, how does that have anything to do with us being original scum?

In that post charter replies to both Replacement and Shotty discussing the same logical problem, but never even acknowledges the problem. He just says the above, and asks Shotty how he was role-fishing. How is that possible?

Oh wow. I was confused. Yeah, what I was saying makes no sense, I don't know how I bungled that twice.

[charter]

Kelly, can you explain how you came to any of those conclusions? I don't agree with just about all of them.

[charter]

My list would be
Maybe original: mokina/replacement
Maybe recruited: rally, shotty, BM, Kid, Kelly
Believe to be neither: charter, tajo, veerus, kise

I've gone on and on about why I think veerus is not original scum, if you think he could be, I'd like to hear something from you more than "I'm leaving the door open" because that translates to me as "I'll lynch him in a heartbeat if the opportunity presents itself" and I'd like for you to respond to my posts where I explain why I don't think veerus is original scum.

tajo I believe to be town because he clearly isn't original scum and I don't think scum would have tried to infect him last night.

Obviously I don't think "and I see little reason why they[charter/Shotty] couldn't be original scum" is a reason to think someone is scum since that applies to about everyone.

BM is scummy as hell and lurks like no one's business (which I've seen him do multiple times as scum, never as town) and in this game lurking is extremely scummy. Also, it's possible he was a guard and was recruited last night, thus guard would be a safe thing to claim.

I don't see why you've cleared KKN either.

Basically, your list for original scum seems really really large since we know two of the scum yesterday. Tajo is also superobv town in my mind and BM and kid don't look town to me either.

[charter]

So in a nutshell/TL;DR, Kelly, you're undecided about pretty much everyone? Also, your post doesn't quite explain why Shotty in particular is scum. I do see that you list how unlikely it is that anyone else was recruited > Shotty, but is that honestly good enough?

These are good points too.

[charter]

I don't understand what that can be based on. What makes Shotty, BM, or Kid impossible as original scum? (Surely what makes Kid unlikely as original scum also makes him unlikely as recruited scum...?)

The people I have for recruited are likely choices (in my opinion) for being recruited. The main criteria for that was not very suspicious yesterday. It's impossible to believe that if you think someone is unlikely as original scum then that makes them unlikely to be recruited, because recruited scum have to come from town, so you can't rule someone out as recruited scum just because you rule them out as original scum. I think that people unlikely to be original scum make good recruitment choices.

So your theory that BM knew guard was a safe thing to claim, is why you rule out BM as original scum but not as recruited scum?

Yes.

I don't know what else to say about that. Tell me why you think he could only be recruited scum.

You could expand a bit on why you think KKN is town. I think he could be recruited because he wasn't scummy yesterday.

[charter]

I don't agree that Kid wasn't scummy yesterday. The way he kept misconstruing pop's words in order to fight with him looked scummy. It's mostly (not totally) in hindsight that Kid's behavior doesn't seem like a good bet for scum.

Is it just your gut feeling that says Kid wasn't scummy yesterday?

Yes, pretty much.

@charter: Why do you list BM as maybe infected, not as maybe original scum? This is bugging me to the extreme if you are serious about veerus 100% original town and the reason you have given.

It's because no one has countered BM's claim.
Although, I've just thought of something I hadn't before. It's possible that BM is original scum, and the person they recruited was the guard and BM just assumed the guard role. However, this doesn't explain why there was no guard kill last night and BM does have a good story for it, so I still think BM was a guard initially. Of course, all this assumes we have a guard, which I said I think Xyl would want to put in because it hasn't been used before (obviously WIFOM, but my feelings nonetheless). The reason veerus is town is because of malthusis's actions yesterday. Why on earth would malthusis vote veerus scum over FA scum when they were both coming under heavy fire? I agree with you that veerus's actions were dubious at best, but malthusis's actions pretty clearly show that veerus wasn't his buddy.

[charter]

Since The Replacement is being replaced, I really don't care if we wait for a replacement for him to show up. Him and Mokina have already shown reason to be lynched and I don't see how someone else filling that slot will be able to explain their actions. Unless someone presents a better case for someone being original scum than Mokina/The Replacement, there isn't anyone else I'm interested in lynching today. I would assume that the night phase would be extended until all playerslots are filled, but if it isn't, then I guess it's a bonus to the town to lynch soon, but I think RV and probably Kelly/tajo have more to say about today.

[charter]

Damnit, I will reread Shotty since I skimmed that and saw some valid points. Kelly, can you maybe consolidate that to make it easier to read and so I know what exactly you think makes Shotty scum please?

Just to confirm, you think he's original scum, correct?

MOD, what is the status on prods/replacements? Can you prod BM and anyone else who needs it please?

[charter]

Reread Shotty and he doesn't look that good. I can see him as either original scum or infected.
40 is incredibly scummy.

He has agreed with me on almost everything, which I don't really think makes a whole lot of sense due to my stance on FA yesterday. I also find the fact that he has not voted at all today scummy.

Shotty, why have you not voted today? Who are you most suspicious of and why?

unvote

Argh, I am really torn here. Shotty doesn't look very good. He definately hasn't been looking for or trying to lynch scum today. I also kind of get the feeling that he's waiting for someone to get to L-1 and speedhammer then suicide tonight.

I am like 95% sure at least one of Replacement and Shotty is scum after rereading him, but unfortunately we only get one shot at this.

[charter]

MOD What is the replacement/Prod situation on everyone? It's been over a week since you've said KKN and Replacement were being replaced.

[charter]

Your post 366 is horribly scummy now that FA has flipped scum and Kise was on board FA for a long time.
You only took the FA lynch as an absolute last resort. It looks like you promised to vote for whoever to ensure a lynch in 366, and then when that turned out to be FA, you really had no choice but to bus. Had you not hammered, it's possible someone else could have, and you would look scummy. If FA wasn't lynched that day, it's possible he would have suicided, which would incriminate you. If he didn't suicide, he'd probably get lynched today. It seems like you were stuck in between a rock and hard place.
You were voting veerus for a very long time.

This all assumes you are scum, but that's what I'm trying to figure out.

You haven't voted at all today, which is scummy, and you've just parroted all my suspicions. As for why I think you're waiting to speedlynch, it's because you're being vague about a lot of things and aren't committing to anyone, so it looks to me like you're keeping all your options open.


No, no no. The more I read over your posts from today, the more I get scumvibes off of you. A lot of your posts ARE trying to feel out where others stand, and you really look like you're just trying to fit in.

376 - This said nothing. You didn't even give your opinion on how many scum you thought we had left, but left it up for others to supply the answer. You don't even ever follow up on this, but let others duke it out.
400 - Feeling out RV to see where he stands on Veerus.
462 - Feeling out BM, gave no opinion of your own.
480 - Softly accuses me of rolefishing, backs down after called out on it. Also backs down on calling me out, even though I should have been.
494 - I will have to come back to this, but he's agreeing with RV that veerus had to bus. Once again, veerus is probably the least likely original scum after tajo.
496 - No, at this point I am pretty sure Shotty is scum. He is trying to get me to believe that veerus is a viable infected.
519 - More fitting in and agreeing.
583 - He ignores a pretty huge discussion and latches on to my speedlynch Replacement plan. Up until this point, I had been thinking both were good candidates for scum, but this pushes Shotty to the top slot.

Kelly raises some excellent points. Consider my vote on you Shotty, but I no longer want to lynch without replacements coming in. I can see him as either original or infected, since his play today is extremely scummy, and it was questionable at the end of yesterday (I can see it coming from either town or scum) but your play today I don't see as town at all.

[charter]

That theory all hinges on someone else showing up, as you correctly noted before that lynch it took everyone there to do it, I could've easily held off on lynching FA without much risk there.

I don't think it does. You made your promise to ensure a lynch a ways before deadline, then I feel like you had no chance but to honor it. This whole argument is WIFOM, so it's largely pointless. However, if there was a no lynch by one vote and you weren't on, you'd come under fire the next day. If FA suicided that night, you'd be lynched for sure. If FA lived through the night, he would come under heavy fire the next day, as would you. Hammering I think is a null tell, what was suspicious was you trying to get someone besides FA lynched.

How is being informed scummy?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here.

What major discussion was I ignoring? The posts about KKN? I was still waiting for Chen's post explanation post about why she voted me so I could respond, why do I get crucified for not deflecting?

Myself, Kelly, and RV were posting significant thoughts on most players. I believe Kise chimed in as well. You didn't really say what you thought on anyone, just popped in to question why you were being voted.

By the way I asked you why not voting today was scummy, and all you did was reiterate that it was. Both the people I think are scum are hardly lynchable so my vote doesn't mean shit, afaik you gave up on your BM suspicions for today which I disagree, I agree with your Replacement suspicions. If I had voted I'd be getting crucified for going for an easy lynch on two people not here for the most part (BM) or not at all (The Replaced). cwutididthar?

Not voting is scummy because then no one knows where you actually stand on people. Also scummy because scum like to stall/lurk until they get a good feel of where everyone is at, and then start talking in order to benefit themselves. Voting for The Replacement would have been totally acceptable, as would voting BM. That right there is practically a scumfession, refusing to vote because you're afraid of the consequences. No one has been crucified for placing a vote and I can't see a townie being afraid of voting.

[charter]

THANK YOU!

Welcome tubby!

veerus, at this current point, who do you think is more likely to be infected, Replacement, Shotty, or someone else? Why?

Basically, you're going to need to post something original instead of following me.

[charter]

Well, I don't really agree with most of what Shotty said, but I don't think going back and forth with him is going to accomplish anything.

Shotty, what are your reasons for voting Replacement?

veerus, you didn't say who you find most suspicious, you didn't say anything at all. Still waiting on this...

Battle Mage, who of Replacement or Shotty would you rather lynch and why?

[charter]

By asking people where they stand you become informed, I've been repeatedly criticized for asking people for their thoughts. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

I agree, nothing scummy with that, what's scummy with you is that you aren't making your position known when you question other people on where they stand. It looks to the rest of us like you are trying to get a feel for where everyone stands so that you can appease the greatest number of people. You don't seem to be forming opinions until other people state what their opinions are which IS scummy.

[charter]

Tajo, why do you think Shotty is town? I urge you to go back and look at his posts, especially those today, and tell us what you think after that.

[charter]

In the meanwhile, why do you think he is scum?

Kelly raised some good points. I highlighted what I thought was scummy in 602, and I think his play day two has been very scummy.

[charter]

tubby, you are on thin ice, your replacing in post better have some good thought.

I am disappointed that Shotty parroted off me his reasons for voting Replacement. Also, he tries to agree with tajo that Kelly and KKN could be scum as well, which I don't remember him ever saying before. Not a good post at all. Also, I'm wary that he's trying to tell BM who to shoot. I've wanted to scream at BM who he should shoot, but with BM being BM, there's not much we can do.

[charter]

I was hoping you would say what specifically you agreed with rather than saying "I agree with charter".

[charter]

charter, how can you find shotty scum for voting FA on Day 1 and "parroting" you on Day 2 without doing much else, but not veerus? Seriously, most of what you said about Shotty applies to veerus as well. Why do you still have veerus not as scum?

Because of malthusis's actions yesterday. Unless someone can supply a good reason why malthusis chose to go after veerus rather than FA (and I believe this was when veerus was getting more suspicion) then I don't think veerus is scum.

[charter]

tubby, who do you think is most likely to be original scum and why? Who do you think was infected last night and why? I don't like how I have to ask these questions.

What do you think of BM?

Why would you have been lynching KKN?

[charter]

Replacement Status MOD?

I'm pretty much waiting for the replacement. I guess I prefer lynching Shotty today, but tubby is an acceptable substitute. If both died, I wouldn't shed a tear.

Vote Shotty

[charter]

Oh wow, I was under the impression that tubby replaced Replacement. Still not much to do before we get a replacement though.

MOD, PROD BM please!

I know he's around.

[charter]

Fucking hell. Really BM?

Probably going to reread, AGAIN.

[charter]

Well, this game has gone to hell.

Fucking hell. Really BM?

Probably going to reread, AGAIN.

Yeh. Tbh, i didnt have much faith in you guys not to just run me up, so i figured it was time for something drastic. I still don't. But, realistically, unless you put me on some sort of massive gambit to win the game alone (which is unnecessary for scum, who could just infect someone under no pressure), i'm pretty clearly town right now.

As i say, we'll now sort out the men from the boys in terms of scumhunters.

BM

It's your own fault you were getting strung up. Your horrid play caused that. You've already shown that you're a tiny boy in terms of scumhunters. I'll just keep the rest of my "oh so witty comments" to myself...

seriously you are gonna go with the "lynch all liars " policy on BM?? Rolling Eyes

Open up your mind and let some thought inside.

Ummm, read the damn thread. BM is horridly scummy. The only thing that saved him from a lynch at the beginning of the day is his guard claim.

vote veerus i believe him to be original infected.

Seriously? You had better post a whole lot more than this to justify your veerus vote.

I am so torn between Shotty and BM here.

[charter]

Obviously I wasn't 100% sure Mokina was scum. Exaggeration.

[charter]

We've been over why veerus isn't scum like three times now.

WHY OH WHY do you think BM is town? This had better be a really good explaination.

[charter]

Fuck it. Keeping my vote on whichever of BM or Shotty has more votes at the time.

unvote, vote BM

since I think he has more currently. Don't care which we lynch, both are scummy.

[charter]

Despite our BM lynching, Shotty is probably even more likely to be scum, and I would still lynch him.

[charter]

Did you read my post charter? Seriously you've been fixating hardcore, could you at least tell me what you think?

TL;DR

I don't really agree with your summary, I think BM is scummy for other reasons, and I'm wary that you're jumping on this because it will save yourself.

Despite our BM lynching, Shotty is probably even more likely to be scum, and I would still lynch him.

would you rather lynch scotty? as in yur willing to make a deal?

What do you mean make a deal? I'm not making any deals. I pretty much agree with Shotty's 703, it made me lol.

[charter]

Ok, we need to just come to a consensus and end the day. This is dragging on unnecessarily, we've been going over a month on day two alone now.

There isn't going to be a veerus lynch, accept it. The case on him is poor.
There isn't going to be a tajo lynch, he's obvtown.
There isn't going to be a charter or Kelly or RV or Kise lynch because we weren't original scum.
There isn't enough support for KKN from what I gather.

That means, we need to lynch BM, Shotty, or ani. This is not a false trichotomy, it is the reality of this situation.

Honestly, I'm leaning back towards Shotty now. I am hoping that the BM situation can just resolve itself tonight (aka guard kill BM).

If we're going to lynch BM, I think we can do it a later day, I doubt he would get infected tonight, plus he might even lurk through night.

unvote, vote Shotty

Please, please, PLEASE can we start to wrap up the day?

[charter]

Because this day has gone on a whole freaking month. We aren't getting anywhere, every day this game goes to hell more and more.

Case on Shotty is 587, rest of page 24, 602. I also find him suspicious because he jumps on late to pretty much every wagon.

[charter]

I'm willing to risk letting BM live until night and just pray. About Shotty, I think he was infected last night, but slightly possible he was original to boot.

[charter]

Fine, lynch BM then and be glad of his riddance. If tajo, tubby, BM, Kise, and Shotty aren't going to vote Shotty, then we can't lynch him.

unvote, vote BM

[charter]

tubby, I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would I continue to waste my breath trying to get someone lynched who isn't going to be able to get lynched. BM is scummy as well, and no, playing like an idiot doesn't mean he's town.

[charter]

Well, you're wrong. I just said I'm not voting Shotty any more because he isn't going to be lynched. Same thing with veerus, but you insist on being as unhelpful as possible by continuing to vote him and vouch for BM.

In case you forgot, I've been going back and forth between BM and Shotty for a while now, I'm not "hopping on a popular wagon".

Also, take a long hard look at post 425, and then post 741, and then do the protown thing and vote BM.

Can we just get everyone to weigh in on whether they are willing to vote veerus today or not? I strongly suspect that there won't be enough people to lynch him, so once we establish that, the veerus voters can drop that and become productive. I'm not voting veerus today.

Shotty, Kelly, tajo, Kise and ani,

would you theoretically vote veerus today or not?

[charter]

Ok, I am done debating with tubby and BM, they've lost all sense of reality.

[charter]

Kelly or tajo, put me out of my misery.

[charter]

Vote Shotty

Now that we have taken care of BM, we can lynch infected.

[charter]

Grandpa had car accident. No access until things get better. If I take too long please replace me.

Hope he's alright. Also hope you can get back soon.

[charter]

Shotty, who is your buddy?

[charter]

Well, Shotty has had his say. Not swaying me at all.

[charter]

My point is right now I'd hope you take me off L-1 before scum hammer-suicide with nothing to stop them.

You're scum. Don't buy the claim. Also you're lying about being a scientist, fairly obvious with your weak claim. Since you didn't claim targets or anything, it's almost like you didn't have them at all! Diescumdie.

[charter]

I wasn't going to out all my targets since I can't save them again, but since charter is clearly being incredibly thick-headed or scummy I guess I'll have to.

N1 I vaccinated charter, I figured scum wouldn't try to touch tajo and charter was a good second choice. Half the reason I'm being attacked was for agreeing with charter a lot yesterday and that was because I was relatively sure he was clean at that point, because I thought he was pro-town on D1 and I protected him that night, now not so much.

N2 I vaccinated no one, I expected the no-kill because if the scum wanted to push this wagon through they couldn't kill if they wanted to use the excuse that I was vaccinated and that's why I didn't suicide as a lynchpin.

This is the biggest load of crap ever! You seriously vaccinated me night one? Yeah right! I was a HUGE candidate for scum with my repeated defending of FA and trying to get Kise lynched. Night two you didn't protect at all? That's the ABSOLUTE BIGGEST pile of BS ever. Even randomly protecting is a great idea because if scum suicide, you have a chance of A) stopping them, and B) saving the person they were going to infect.

Are you confident on this wagon?

100%. Zero doubt in my mind.

Stop. Hammer Time!

[charter]

Do. Not. Buy. The. Claim.
No matter how crappy it is. You are not weaseling your way out of this. You're lucky BM let you do it yesterday.

[charter]

I know that bullying people is scummy, but I am going to do it anyway.

The more any of you waffle on Shotty now, the easier you are making it for Shotty's buddy to hide amongst. There is really no reason for today to take a long time (god forbid it drags on like yesterday) and the longer it takes, the more you add yourself to the pool of potential infected. If we had a five post, five vote day, then the last infected would be narrowed down to one of three people. Factoring in scumhunting, it could probably be brought down to a 50-50 shot for the scientist to block, pretty much ending the game.

[charter]

Shotty's buddy obviously would prefer if he doesn't get lynched today, since I think it's fairly obvious Shotty was blocked last night, and therefore can't be blocked again. So, if Shotty escapes lynch today, he can suicide tonight.

Shotty's buddy is going to be one of the people that isn't ready for him to be lynched immediately. The more people that "want to wait" or "aren't sure" there are that are actually town means that the pool of potential infected grows by that number of people.

Basically, when Shotty flips scum, and he almost certainly will, his buddy isn't one of the people that are only interested in lynching him (which is all those currently voting him). Therefore, the potential people that could be his buddy grows each time someone who is town waffles on Shotty, because his buddy will almost certainly waffle.

And, if the buddy is busing, then yeah..

[charter]

Holy Shit! Kise is Shotty's buddy!

No vote for FA day one, no vote for Shotty yesterday. I must go back and evaluate this further.

[charter]

Oh wait, he did vote FA. I'm not sure I missed that. False alarm.

[charter]

I'm not sure

how

I missed that.

[charter]

There is literally zero chance Shotty is going to flip town. He should have been lynched yesterday because he is so scummy, but the BM fiasco prevailed.

[charter]

God dammit.

Well,

vote tajo

. Really have nothing else than you were obvtown, except you would have been my top recruit choice last night, so... defend yourself against that.

I think I'd lynch either tajo or Kelly today. Unless someone can provide a good case on someone else, it's tajo because I think he was recruited or Kelly because she derailed my Replacement fervor and got us to lynch Shotty. (I think the scummy part is the derailing the Replacement scrutiny, not leading Shotty, since he was scummy as hell)

[charter]

Well, I was dead set on Replacement, then she came with her Shotty case and I changed to that.

Why tubby though?

[charter]

well, i'd be ok with a KC or tubby lynch today... i think its pretty obvious that either charter or tajo got infected last night.. personally my money would be on charter (he's been more active and his reads have been spot on). if we lynch kc or tubby, it'll give us more time to determine who got infected between tajo/charter.

I shouldn't argue for my own lynch, but someone else will point this out, but why would you lynch someone besides who you think got infected? I think it's unlikely any original scums are left since ani died. And you can't let someone you think is infected alive until night.

[charter]

If we're looking for a N1 recruit, I say it's limited to pop, tubby, or Rally. But I'm thinking pop was the obvious recruitment, and scum just went ahead and grabbed him doc be damned.

I mean look at who the scum were: fallen, malthusis, and Mokina ('s vacant position). Do you think these guys were thinking how to outguess the doc?

As for last night, pop also seems like an obvious pick. You can't really base a case on that (and I think scum expect that), but I feel better about it than saying pop was scum yesterday.

/intend to vote pop.

So basically you think tajo was recruited every night? Seems more like you're trying to lynch tajo than actually figure this out to me.

unvote, vote Kelly Chen

[charter]

Replacement/Mokina was pretty clearly original scum. I explained why back on day two.

tajo, I'd vote you because you would have been one of my top infection choices last night.

[charter]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19#1805219
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#1805222c

I agree with Rally about veerus making even less sense than usual today, however, I'm not seeing scum off him currently.

[charter]

Oh, well, I think you were still pretty town yesterday and yesterday I wouldn't have thought you'd be lynchable, and with Shotty dead, you seem like a good candidate to infect.

However, I really have no clue how animorph's mind works, so I don't know if he did what I would have.

[charter]

We shouldn't lynch veerus today. We should lynch either tajo or Kelly, preferably Kelly.

[charter]

Well, I know he didn't target me, but as for anyone else, like I've said, you've been pretty obvtown in the game up until today, and with Shotty dead, I don't see why he would be worried about you being protected.

As for why he'd pick you above anyone else, I don't have a good answer to that, it's just what I'd do.

I'm actually going to go back and take a look at day two, to see who was for/against my Replacement case. We might be able to nail malthusis's target through that, and that's a better plan than all of us playing "I would have infected so and so last night".

[charter]

545, Kise is the third vote for Replacement. Kelly voted him first, and I voted him second. Seems risky if Kise was recruited night one.

554, Kise unvotes Replacement.

559, Incredibly scummy post by Kelly. Says that me or veerus could be original scum because we would have been poor recruitment choices, and also begins her transition away from Replacement. 560 and 561 continue this trend.

562, Rally takes a really wishy washy stance on Replacement.

After I decide to go after Shotty, Kelly pretty much sits back and doesn't do anything.

628, Rally has Shotty as not scum.

tubby's replacing in post says he would lynch himself...

663, Kise votes for tubby. Not much else there though.

699, This falls under the 'too scummy' fallacy for tubby, however, I see no motivation for him as scum to do this.

717, Apparently Kelly was not voting BM when she made this post. It's clearly a post designed to allow her to shift her vote without garnering suspicion.

773, Another too scummy to be scum from tubby.

Ok, after rereading day two, I've ruled out these people as potential night one recruitment choices.
veerus
populartajo
tubby216
charter

This means we have these players left
Rally Vincent
Kelly Chen
Kise

From this, I am much less sure of Kise due to him being a suboptimal recruitment choice in my opinion, he had some suspicion on him, and scum wouldn't have known that I wouldn't pick up where I left off on day one.

Now on to day three, and see if I can get anything off that.

unvote

while I actually apply some brainpower rather than what I was doing before.

[charter]

780, huge pro town bomb from Rally.

783, this is pretty much animorph's only post with content, if someone can get anything out of it, that would be great, but I can't.

Based on day three play, I find Rally less likely to be scum than Kelly, so I will

vote Kelly

I think it would be useful if others did what I did, go back over day two and three and try and figure out who got recruited night one. I got sucked in to 'who got infected last night' but there's no way we'll get anywhere with that.

[charter]

Good job town. Were any of the test subjects immune or were they fake?

I think it was a pretty cool game, though I think it might be better off with fewer players and just two original infected.

The day one lynch was probably the only way we pulled this out, but something that really helped, that I didn't even realize when we started, was night one gave us some nice info to work with when malthusis suicided. I wonder if it would be better for scum to not suicide unless they're under heavy fire.

Also, I think it's pretty odd how none of the scientists protected themselves.

[charter]

Well, I blocked Shotty night two, so that cemented my belief that he was scum even more.

Had he not lied, it would have been much faster lynching you probably.

That's a good point, I forgot about when you're left with one scum it's dumb.

[charter]

Actually, Shotty, why did you lie about who you protected? Did you think you were the only scientist or what? (I thought I was the only one)

I would have claimed what you actually did, claiming what you claimed just nailed your coffin shut.

[charter]

What I'm also interested in are the reasons for BM's fakeclaim and back-off. Obviously, the discussion after BM claimed helped in finding scum, and I wonder who charter and Shotty would have vaccinated if BM hadn't admitted he was fakeclaiming (I already had on Night 1).

BM, did you suspect more then one scientist?

Assuming we lynched Shotty instead of BM, probably Replacement.

[charter]

Since someone asked: Both tests subjects were immune to infection, although it never actually mattered.

I asked. I wanted to know what you had actually given the town in terms of power. However, I'm not sure telling test subjects is any detriment to the town, I don't think scum would ever risk targeting a claimed test subject. I would be interested in running this game being run again. I know I asked you about it being put in mini form shortly after the marathon game, and I'm glad it happened. Why didn't you put a guard in the setup Xyl?