Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

Winning scum last game
Townies swinging from the trees

vote: RedCoyote

Hey that doesn't rhyme!
Just give me the time.
I'll make it clear to you,
that the scum is Budja...oo.

vote: Budja

[RedCoyote]

Here what you do, is you take offense to RC for having an opinion
About the style. Tone sets this, though I'm unaware of your predisposition.
Perhaps not exactly an attack, but your attitude reeks of defense, which
is interesting, given the circumstance.

Well done Wolf, I noticed that too.
Given fhq's vote, it just made me blue.
I picked on him with a careful jest,
knowing my words could spark some unrest.

For magi to say, in her dearest of ways,
that my post to her did not faze.
I found it an odd complaint at the time,
yet then I thought, "but only to rhyme?"

---

WolfBlitzer cries wolf, but there's nothing of note
This is only the stage of the random vote
This case he's attempting to push
Is nothing but hot air from his toosh
And so I conclude with a

Vote: WolfBlitzer

Are you so sure in your early prediction,
or aren't you aware of our trying condition?
This poetic town may be unique,
but never forget scumhunting techniques.

---

Knowing his play style permitted me to see
that silence is not usually indicative of RC.
The thing you should keep in mind about Red,
is the way he fills, with walls o' text, a thread,
but he might just have needed to use all his time
to get all that words he is writing to rhyme!

"No doubt!" I would say,
to my supposed infraction.
This weekend was long
and of satisfaction!

As flattering it may be,
to sense fear of "RC",
I'll let it be known
that fhq is no drone!

I'll say it just once
and I'll make it clear,
take care of yourself
before kicking my rear.

---

However I must say, I cannot pretend
that I want the random voting stage to soon end.
So I will join your bandwagon here
in the hope that some scummy signs do soon appear.

The random stage is over, like it or not.
Luckily for me, my guess was hot!

I do so declare,
without inhibition,
that

my vote is secure
based on false rendition

.

---

In regards to haiku,
I have nothing to add.
Spolium and don,
have gone seemingly mad.

Perhaps they shall produce a greater explanation,
but for that I shall wait with anticipation.

---

aye, good questions do come
from one named spolium,
my usage of "friend"
was a means to an end.
if i had more skill, or perhaps more time,
i could have searched around for something to rhyme
with fhqwhgads, but alas
how am i to announce
a rhyme for a name i can't even pronounce?

XD

[RedCoyote]

do find it interesting that Red Coyote is trying to cover for him.

Perhaps magi was just attempting to keep her poetry going, perhaps not. In either case, no, she doesn't have to listen to me. I don't know, it seemed a little offputing. Who said that she had to listen to me? No one, lol.

You can call it covering if you want, but I'm surprised you jumped on him like you did. I suppose I thought what he had to say was more valid than you did though.

Frankly, I'm more concerned with Budja hopping on board that bandwagon with you Ice. His post made it seem like he wanted to pressure Wolf, piggyback on your suspicions, and have his vote counted as a "random" one, all at once.

[RedCoyote]

(By his post I of course mean post 32)

[RedCoyote]

I didn't realise Ice was being serious on his suspicion, maybe more serious than a complete random vote but not much. It was page 2!

I am definitely not trying to piggyback on his suspicions. My third vote was a push to escape the random stage. It was badly done, I'll admit and my choice of words were influenced by trying to make it rhyme.

Budja, to me it seemed like a piggyback, but if you want to clarify your

individual

suspicions on Wolf then I am of course willing to hear what you have to say.

[RedCoyote]

I cannot pretend
that I want the random voting stage to soon end.

My third vote was a push to escape the random stage.

To me, this is contradictory. I don't know, Budja seems like he's sincere in explaining he misworded his comments but I have to admit I am still comfortable on him for now.

Another example:

I didn't realise Ice was being serious on his suspicion

I have to assume [Wolf was] for real, not for play
And the only recourse is for

my vote to stay

In random vote stage

I can only assume

[Wolf was] grasping at straws

when you sang that tune

To everyone else, a wagon we need
My words are what you surely should heed
WolfBlitzer is trying to deflect what I've said

So I say to you all, "Off with [Wolf's] head!"

(emphasis added)

Again, it's arguable either way really... but something tells me Budja saw an opportunity to be the infamous 3rd vote, putting Wolf at L-2, while saving himself an out for later by claiming, "Oh, lol, thought it was still random ".

---

don't see how Budja was piggybacking off of Ice. It looks like they voted for entirely different reasons. Clarification?

First of all, I'm not so easily buying Budja's explanation, just to let you know we differ on that point as well.

Second, to clarify my allegation,

To everyone else, a wagon we need
My words are what you surely should heed
WolfBlitzer is trying to deflect what I've said
So I say to you all, "Off with his head!"

So I will join your bandwagon here
in the hope that some scummy signs do soon appear.

What's more, one could make the argument that Budja didn't even necessarily find the comment that Ice9 is upset about all that scummy when he said,

Wolf's statement seems to be a joke,
cast in the spirit of a random vote.

So his vote was, unless someone can show me otherwise, almost entirely put up based on the fact that Ice9 had requested it. I don't see anything in post 32 that indicates that Budja had unique suspicions of Wolf that Ice9 didn't.

Isn't a bit counterproductive to tell someone you're voting them just create a bandwagon and that you have no legitimate suspicions of them? If the point of bandwagoning like that is to gauge a response to pressure, why would you tell them your vote has no real pressure?

This is exactly my point. This is the claim Budja has made for voting Wolf (which, to his credit, he regrets doing), but I personally don't think it's good enough.

---

In any case, I agree with Budja in post 60, but just recognizing a questionable move after the fact might not be enough.

[RedCoyote]

considering he stated (more or less) when he voted that it wasn't random.

I cannot pretend
that I want the random voting stage to soon end.

You don't think this could've been construed to say that he was still voting at random? I agree that indeed it wasn't a random vote, I'm just saying I think it's funny for him to make this comment. He's essentially saying he wants the random voting stage to keep going despite his vote not being random.

You were using piggybacking as hopping on the same target, whereas I took it to mean hopping on the same reasoning.

Well, I have the same definition as you, I think I'm just looking at it differently. I didn't explain myself very well:

I don't see any reasoning at all in Budja's vote, and because he posts right after Ice9 (obviously having read Ice9's post and subsequently agreeing with it because he uses the same terminology Ice9 used), I can only assume that his lack of reasoning meant to imply that he both accepted Ice9's vote

and

reasoning as his own. I just assign him that position by default since he hasn't given me acceptable, independent reasoning for the vote.

Of course, if you accept the idea that he was voting purely out of pressuring Wolf, then piggybacking would indeed be the wrong word; I do not accept that reason.

The biggest reason why piggybacking is a bad thing is that if townies do it they aren't giving enough of their own opinions and it gives us less to critque them on, if scum do it gives them an opportunity to "blend in" with the crowd without sticking out because if they agree with one arguement, bad or good, other townies are more reluctant to push two people than one. It's definitely always a scummy thing to not give yourself an individual presence in the game.

---

I'm mostly with RC here (damn, again?! How do you do it? )

But it's okay this time because I'm really a townie! Honest!

I am however, willing to accept Budja's retraction. I just get this funny feeling that he's being the scapegoat here...

I have to admit I agree with Ice9 and Goat's suspicions of you, but for me this statement is worse than the rest of the post.

You're making a very vauge accusation against multiple people and you end it with the ever-hated ellipses. You're essentially saying "ya, budja sounds bad but what if he's good and u are bad..................".

---

I very much like Ice9's post 70, and I agree with Goat that Spring needs to get back to this game (about how long before we should start asking for a

prod

?)

[RedCoyote]

For post 77,

FoS: springlullaby

If she can explain how her "sitting back and watching" helps this town at all, I'll gladly remove my suspicions of her.

[RedCoyote]

I'm trying to follow Spolium v Goat v Ice9 as best as I can, but I'll tell you right now Spolium looks to be the worst of the bunch. I find myself agreeing with most of what Ice9 is saying, specifically this,

[Budja, spring] obviously gave all of the "comments and suspicions flying" at least a cursory glance, so why, when you don't seem to have an opinion or any comment yourself, do you feel it is necessary to go out of your way to take a potshot at Springlullaby for the exact same thing?

---

I'd have to agree here. I'm bothered by the people willing to jump on Spring's post, but yet unwilling to soil their hands with the other discussion.

I'll be happy to acknowledge this, especially in the case of don and Azhei, but I am not willing to write off spring.

Opportunistic or not, spring's comment was unacceptable.

---

My one grief with Spolium is the fact that by getting into the large argument about semantics with Goat, you basically spoke on behalf of Budja. This really spared Budja from true inspection. I do agree that some of his points came off as more defensive than from an unbiased townie's perspective such as the meta analysis.

I agree with this and most of Lynx's post here. Spoilum has the right to call a Budja wagon foul, but I don't like the way he's going about providing us with alternative scum.

---

I never claimed I was contributing in the first place.

Does/Should this make you more town-looking?

I ask you again spring, please explain how "sitting back and watching" helps the town.

---

Budja's lack of in-depth answer is currently revealing information through the reactions of other players. The way in others are deviating from his case is giving us further information. This arguably tells us more than a direct answer from Budja would.

Good answer.

That said, I am against a lurker hunt at this point and find myself a great deal more curious about Ice9 and Goat's agreement about suspicion on FHQ, and their respective FoS/vote based on #67. Between posts 83 and 84, they agree [on questioning suspicions on spring].

I expected it to come up from someone. Usually when two or three people jump on someone for saying something anti-town, another player chimes in and says, "Wait, why is everyone jumping all of a sudden?"

I never thought to compare it against fhq though. I'd really like to hear more of Ic9, Goat, and fhq's takes on this theory.

---

@

RedCoyote

: If you had to choose right now, totally by yourself, who the lynch would be today, who would you choose?

If I had to choose, by myself, who the lynch would be at this moment then it would be Budja. Mostly from reasons I've stated before, but his attempts to try and shift the discussion toward other players without adequately defending himself has sort of compounded suspicions to me.

---

personally, i think [Ice9's] attack on spolium is a bit over the top. it is always good to question players when they are defending someone, but i think you are making more out of spolium's defense of budja than need be

But Ice9 said that he wanted to stop talking about it, that doesn't give you any comfort?

[RedCoyote]

I gave my take already in my last post.

I try to make my comments in the same chronological order I read the posts. That was written before I got to your comments.

I'd like more people to give their opinion on my fhq case, which at this point includes my original voting reasons followed by the additional reasoning I pointed out in my last post. I think this is a strong case, and I'm surprised by the lack of support.

Is it much more than just his support of Budja (e.g. coaching) and his lurking?

---

Would you consider Ice9's continued evasion of my extended case against him to be a subtle attempt to shut down my own attempts to scumhunt? Please elaborate further if you do not think this is the case, preferably with reference to his claims that I am doing so to him.

Both you and Ice9 seem to be at each others throat. Now that Wolf has been replaced, which is where these problems stemmed from, perhaps we should focus this energy to interrogating him. I don't like the term evasion because Ice9 made it clear he wanted to drop the issue. Ice9 said there wasn't much meat left in it, and said he would rather ask new questions of other people. I don't know why you would call that evading.

---

I have to say I don't really like the fhq case.

I can't say I do much either but I can't blame you for feeling that way.

spring is just daring us to vote for her with her attitude in this game. fhq seems to be genuinely lurking. I don't know which is worse.

I think Ice9 is playing very aggressively and is willing to push hard to find scumtells by your attempted pressure on Wolf, me and Spolium. I do not think Spolium has played scummily but I definitely do not suspect Ice9 for pushing so hard as it is consistent with his earlier play style.

In other words all three of these players (including fhq) are townie to you at the moment?

---

I don't see "now you gotta follow through buddy" as at all the same as "explain yourself, Budja". The first implies that Budja has gotten the attention of the world, and now needs to do something to satisfy us, i.e. "Ok Budja, you've gotten attention. Now follow through and tell us what you've learned or how it was pro-town, etc." The second is us asking Budja to tell him why he did what he did, i.e. "This is what you did. Why was it pro-town?"

Do you see the difference. What fhq said was "here's what you need to do to look pro-town." What I did was "here's where you didn't look pro-town, what gives." Large difference there.

I'm worried that Goat is making more sense to me because I understand his points better.

I mean, I'm trying to remain as impartial as possible, despite (or maybe directly because of) not particularly liking either spring or Budja, but even still I'm finding it much more difficult to be sympathtic to Spolium's arguments and I think it's because I can understand Goat's rhetoric easier than I can Spolium's.

On the same token, I am having a real difficult time seeing Spolium as scummy.

---

Again, my point stands. The slight difference in the presentation of the arguments does not affect the implication of the arguments (that those attacking the scapegoat appear to be acting scummy, and that we should question the case on the "scapegoat" on this basis). It's still hypocritical.

I honestly think you've taken this about as far as you can without further input from fhq.

do you think Ice9's continued evasion of said case is

scummy

? If not, why not?

I don't know if this question is still open or not, but no, I still don't.

This is from an outsider's perspective of seeing little in that tussle to begin with, but I think if a player makes it clear his intention to want to move on to different arguments

and

follows through with said intentions, then it's hard to label that dismissal as evasive.

What specifically do you want Ice9 to account for that you think is necessarily relevant to you reading him?

---

[Spolium is] exaggerating the situation. I didn't find Ice's original reasons for avoiding debate with you scummy at all. After that, people called for him to answer your post. That call from others right there marks the starting point from which you can legitimately accuse him of "evasion." He has posted once since then, and it was a 1-line post.

Your term "continued evasion" insinuates that this is a repeated offense than has gone unchecked. In reality, it's one post, and that single post was a 1-line post.

Absolutely agree 100%.

[RedCoyote]

@RedCoyote

- In #72 you said to FHQ that "I have to admit I agree with Ice9 and Goat's suspicions of you". However, in #116 you said "I can't say I do much either" in reply to Budja's stated dislike for the FHQ case. I can't seem to find why this turnaround occurred, or even where it occurred. Can you explain?

Oh God Spolium, don't make me look at that.

I think you caught me being hypocritical.

A couple of my other games are at a fever pitch at the moment so I'm kind of giving them more of my attention I'm afraid.

There's nothing I can really do there but give you townie points for catching that. I'm not going to try and weasel my way out of what I said in those posts; I contradicted myself.

What I said in post 116 is inaccurate, I do find the suspicions of fhq justified.

And I can't give you a good reason for saying what I did to Budja. It's almost like, my gut tells me fhq is sincerely trying to stand up for Budja, but my brain tells me that fhq is suspicious.

Like you, I think Goat makes a good case against him.

---

I think spring should post sooner rather than later, and I think if she doesn't pick up activity that the

Mod should not be hesistant to replace her

.

[RedCoyote]

in return, can he give you "scummie" points? just kidding.
but seriously, you feel that Goat has made a good case against Budja?

Far be it from me to tell player's how to assign their scummy points, I can only point them in the right direction.

And did you mean to say fhq instead of Budja there?

I think Goat has made a good case against fhq, and I would not be opposed to an fhq lynch today.

I still think Budja is the better choice.

---

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

I hope you take my comment seriously. I've played with you before where you didn't lurk.

How is one supposed to analyze a player who doesn't play?

---

springlullaby - ~anti-town town

...

My scum'd be, then, RedCoyote and Spolium. This is to be looked into later, since at the moment I've not got enough solid case to put up that'd withstand general activity/etc.

Vote: Springlullaby

The reasoning should be obvious.

Explain how the reasoning is obvious when your conclusion is completely different from your vote.

FoS: Jebus

[RC] why've you not voted Spring over Budja yet?

Because I have no basis to vote spring.

I mean, pressure votes don't work if the person just doesn't want to play the game. That's why I asked that the Mod take a firmer stance toward her if need be.

If she doesn't think this game is interesting enough to comment on, or whatever her exact terminology was, then she should excuse herself. I mean that in as inoffensive and as impersonal way as possible.

The town is going to have a very difficult time reading her if her activity stays the way it is. It gets people unusually incensed (with good reason) and it gives the scum such a great opportunity to draw attention away from themselves.

So, to answer your question, I don't like the way spring is playing, and that certainly makes me suspicious, but at the moment I'm not prepared to say she is scum.

[RedCoyote]

Yes don, I do support the case against Budja.

[RedCoyote]

RC, Am I take it since you're still suspicious of FHQ that you don't buy his explantion in his latest post? He didn't address for me the points I found him suspicious for. Do you find Budja suspicious for the initial move or for his defense later?

Well, I don't know. His explanation comes how many days after the fact? And it's just that his defense was non-intentional?

fhq isn't on the top of my list, but he's somewhere in the top 4 (of scum).

What doesn't help him is the fact that's it's almost scripted for someone to come to another players defense if the a couple of other players are on them. Maybe he was actually in Budja's corner, I don't know, but I've really liked Goat in this game so fhq may just have the unfortunate position of disagree with me about the lay of the game.

As far as Budja goes, it was and is still his inital move that left me feeling bad, coupled with his so-so participation and generally vanilla commentary ("omg spring how could you") have kept me in the lynch Budja camp.

I'm not the biggest Azhrei fan either though.

---

RedCoyote. About halfway through he declares the RVS over, something I've learned is a bad move. Other than that, good kickoff post.

I was going to ask you about this, you didn't consider Ice9's vote on Wolf to be a serious vote?

How do you get an active lurker back? Pressure them.

Do you think this will get her to talk when she's already aware that the town is upset with her activity levels?

[RedCoyote]

I did not consider Ice's vote on Wolf to be serious, I would have noted it otherwise.

Glad someone shares my point of view here.

I disagree with both of these players and would like Ice to refresh us on exactly why it was he originally voted Wolf.

---

Busy atm.

:\

---

Don, I don't know why you're worried about L-1. If anybody quick lynched spring, they'd be under strong scrutiny the next day. How do you think Spring should be dealt with if she keeps it up? Replacement?

Are you advocating spring be lynched policy-wise?

The only thing that worries me is that we have no idea what roles are out there, and I'll suggest here and now that maybe spring has something to gain through her own lynching.

[RedCoyote]

I hadn't considered this, and was beginning to lean a little towards a Spring vote. Are such roles common in Normal games here?

Well, based on what Lynx just said maybe Jester/Fool-type roles aren't very common in MS. The reason I brought it up is because it's honestly the best reason I can come up with for spring acting this way.

[RedCoyote]

Nice, a deadline. I'll call my shots before that.

Don't let our questions or concerns get in the way of that.

[RedCoyote]

I disagree with both of these players and

would like Ice to refresh us on exactly why it was he originally voted Wolf.

---

Thank you Goat for clearing up the Jester thing.

As the deadline draws near, I'm still comfortable with a Budja lynch, but I can also be persuaded against Jebus or fhq.

spring, as a policy lynch, I think will suffice. I do think we need to start discussing the lynch more at this point. I plan to give a more complete post in the next day or two about where I stand with everyone.

[RedCoyote]

spring, I take it all back, do not talk anymore.

XD

Give me a couple of minutes.

[RedCoyote]

[Budja:]

Hypocrite play at its best, have contributed exactly nada since that third vote and some defending of self.

spring has indeed been paying attention to the game, and I'm sorry for ever having doubted her. Her conclusions are generally refreshing, notably this one on Budja.

Back in time for a moment:

My fault was not my action but the fact I openly displayed my reason. Saying a vote is for pressure reduces the pressure and makes the vote meaningless,

that was poor playing I did there

, I will admit that.

Firstly, I didn't and still don't agree that his vote was grounded on the intentions of pressuring Wolf. I think Ice9 (I still haven't received his response to my question, so this is my own take on the situation) voted Wolf as a real, honest-to-goodness vote. Granted, it was on page 2, it wasn't based on much, but the reasons he gave were because he thought Wolf seemed overly defensive of me for no reason.

It could be easily read as not a random vote.

Budja disagrees with this, saying that he wanted to both "randomly" vote Wolf with Ice9 (after Ice9 had proclaimed, "Off with Wolf's head!"), and "pressure" Wolf at the same time.

I don't know how a vote can be all of these things, but that's how he spun it. My own personal interpretation was that he used the idea that his vote was still random as an excuse to be the third vote on Wolf without having to explain why.

Secondly, and more importantly, while it's good, as a townie, to admit if you've done something you think is wrong, apologizing isn't the only thing you have to do in this game as a townie. Townies also have to hunt mafia, ask questions of other players and decide who has good/true intentions based on the answers you get.

The real apology Budja could make is to pretend like he cares who is lynched today.

My suspicions of Budja have only been compounded over the course of this game because the only contributions I remember him really making are defending himself and getting upset with spring's absence.

Every other player (with the exception of Plonky and arguably fhq) has been hunting.

spring, what does the abbreviation TR mean? Town read?

In any case, I think your read on me is fair enough, it sounds genuine. I now know you have been following this game.

I think your read on don is off-base, but other than that I can say we have a lot of similar views about the game so far.

---

Well I guess no-one can criticize you for lack of content anymore. That post was very insightful.

You do make a good point that I haven't said much lately. I have let this game fall down my priorities a bit. I'll fix this soon.

What can I say? Another perfect opportunity to fight for this town plundered away. Budja, either this game hasn't ever been a priority, or this is another fluff post.

---

FoS: RedCoyote

for suggesting a policy lynch, which i have already stated my distaste for.

Ignoring the recent activity of spring, is a policy lynch better than no lynch?

---

Though it comes off as pro-town posting a huge analysis like you've done, you've evaded any read on interactions with other players. By using this stunt, you've avoided participating in the random stage and chyming in with your thoughts on other player's arguments. Which kinda makes you the most "milky" person playing right now. You're lurking move doesn't clear you of that.

I want to make it clear that while I think spring is town at the moment, I also agree with this comment 100%.

Interaction is the single most important contribution a townie can make. spring kept up with the game, which is great, but, for instance, the questions she had for don in post 185 might/might not have provoked her or anyone else to see either player in a different light.

Then again, she's right to say this,

I think your complaint is pointless and rather after the fact. I made a choice in how I wanted to play this game, you make up your own mind on whether you think it's scummy or not.

Complaining about it, at least from my point of view, is indeed pointless. Goat, on the other hand, implies that spring's post doesn't necessarily change his stance on her. I want to see what develops here.

---

Don's vote seems more like OMGUS to me and not for scumminess. The sumg part doesn't add anything to your case either. You're quick to turn on her once she's thrown some suspcion your way. Who else did spring misrepresent?

I'm using this comment as a springboard. don, aside from spring's analysis of you which you think is misrepresentative, what about spring's play now specifically rubs you the wrong way? What do you think she should be doing to appear town in your eyes?

The don v.s. spring situation seems heavily entrenched in what don said or didn't say, if either of them wants to make the other one the lynch today, I suggest they take a few minutes to explain their suspicions better.

---

I have added little to discussions

I agree.

On a first glance yesterday, your post appeared to be fairly insightful to me but when I read it more closely it simply appears to be a summary of the actions so far, impressive but with little actual argument over any of your claims.

Then is she scummy? Are you going to vote her? Are you going to ask anyone else anything at all???

The suspense is killing

you

me.

To be more direct, I love how you unvoted Wolf here and didn't vote anyone else. You've had the same "random vote" up for half a month, no one has been worthy of your vote in the meantime?

[RedCoyote]

I'm not ashamed to admit I've had a change of heart on spring. Do I agree with the way she played this game? No, and I've said as much. She says, essentially, "Well I did it, now call me out for it or don't". If Goat or Lynx want to continue pushing her on that point, then I will await and see how much else they'll learn from it, but I don't think she's scum at the moment. I think, as scum, spring wouldn't want to draw this much attention to herself. That makes more sense to me than to assume she just drew up all these notes in a few minutes and used her lurking as some sort of ploy to look like a crappy townie. Naturally I'm going to go by what makes more sense.

---

i feel that at this point in the game, anyone pushing for a policy lynch is aiming to avoid accountability.

Do you think post 184 is me "pushing" for a policy lynch in order to "avoid accountability" on this game?

[RedCoyote]

Directly after her post, my feelings toward her were much more positive. But I didn't study her post thoroughly and only focused on the things she accentuated. This is exactly what I think she tried to do with that post. Reading back the responses about the amount of mistakes she made, it seems to me these 'notes' weren't made during the game, but rather after the fact.

What inclines you to suspect this? Is it just the notes she took on you?

I'm certainly not going to deny it's a possibility, my whole point is it just seems so unlikely for scum to draw that much attention to themselves, especially a more seasoned player like spring.

I'd be more open to your side of the argument if you could point to some specifics where the notes just seem totally offbase, but frankly it's hard from me to criticize someone's shorthand as they follow the game. She said it herself these were her own personal notes about each post as the game flowed.

While I think it is anti-town not to engage, I think it's significantly worse to be in a position of you, Azhrei, or Budja and say spring should be our Public Enemy #1 when all of y'alls contributions have been rather on the light side. Budja in particular has struck the complete wrong chord with me.

Let me ask you something fhq, can you think of a valid strategy behind what she did if she were scum? I can't think of anything reasonable outside of the complete WIFOM argument that, "she anticpated we would get upset at her inactivity but then write her off completely once she posted some notes". That isn't good enough for me to convict her right now. Whether or not her notes are 100% accurate of anyone is just petty sounding. I'm reading this back and forth between her and don with malaise.

And

I'll even go further

than that and say that don, Goat, and Lynx have all slightly pinged back scummy to me for pushing this issue needlessly. I think spring is an easy out, and I would not be surprised if more than one scum is voting her right now...

---

If we're approaching a no-lynch situation, I'll vote whichever gives us a lynch. Otherwise, I'll

vote: Budja

on the basis of unhelpful wishy-washy filler posts and the fact that everyone has provided an opinion on him (see above).

However, I do agree with this statement. If this town will not budge on spring for a more reasonable lynch (e.g. Budja, fhq, possibly Jebus), then I will also change my vote if necessary.

To be sure though, if this town is serious about lynching spring, then I do

support and extension of the deadline

if only in order to give us more time to reconsider what we're thinking about in this game.

- wallpost ambiguous enough to explain away "misinterpretations" if necessary

Her post was prefaced with the comment that that post was her uncensored shorthand for following this game. To argue that she concoted it is one thing, to argue that it was purposefully ambiguous is another. I found her summation of most players to be apt, and I don't expect a post such as hers to be 100% accurate with regards to everyone's interpretations at the time they made the post.

- "I'm happy to vote players x, y and z" with no vote

I see this as much less of a sin then some of the other players here. Budja left the same "random vote" up long after the player was replaced out of the game. I don't know if Ice9 (

Mod, prod Ice9 please

) still feels the same way about Budja, Jebus (

Mod, prod Jebus please

) still hasn't voted, and Plonky's been on spring's wagon since before it had wheels. I think all of these players have a worse record for voting than spring does because spring has given us her a recent, updated opinion of the game... you know, like she actually cares about who we're going to lynch today. I don't see anything to indicate that spring would not have voted before the deadline.

---

That said, I will tell you that I feel your vote on me is somewhat understandable BUT not justified from a town point of view. I think it is easy and lazy, and quite scummy as it does not take the game in its entirety into consideration. But I also understand that I have written myself in a somewhat difficult corner concerning you by making, what I think are, some minors mistakes, allowing you to take on the righteous townie role.

I think this is mostly true, and spring, if you don't mind me asking, do you have a serious reason for waiting so long to pick up the pace?

---

not sure if you knew what you were getting into with "hackpoetry". Spolium had previously tried to commandeer the Haiku form(in the sign-up thread, i believe?) and his poem tried to express his ownership of it. personally i love haiku and didn't think it fair for one player to "steal" an entire form of poetry. this statement could be taken several ways. it was during the rvs. if you don't understand something, ask a question. you didn't ask because you were busy lurking. so by not clarifying information, your opinion was swayed, hence the importance of clarifying post content.

Okay, I'm reading this, I'm reading all of this, but

come on

.

I know I sound like I'm completely in spring's corner, but this is just asinine.

I don't see how don can argue, on the one hand, that spring is so prone to misrepresenting everyone's posts, but on the other argue that her infamous notes post was completely concocted in order to make it look like she was following the game.

Why would she not go to the trouble to make sure her notes were more accurate

if

she in fact she made the entire post up? These arguments seem completely contradictory to me.

I don't think you can argue that she both made these notes up when she posted them and that they are misrepresentative of the game at the same time. If she made the post up, that necessarily implies that she was taking the time to read the posts carefully and write up the acceptable "note" of each post.

SpringLullaby
Budja
Red Coyote
Fghjdads
Ice9
Azrhei?
Jebus?
Plonky?
Lynx
Goat
Spolium

If you want me to be perfectly honest don, I think a great deal of this anger at spring is a smokescreen. The fact that you find me more suspicious that Plonky, a player who has had zero contribution to this game, is telling. It's telling because you are calling out spring for being such a lurker, and then you're going to turn around and say that Plonky, Jebus, and Azrehi are your 4th, 5th, and 6th most townie respectively?

---

These things seem so completely trivial in my eyes, I don't think one player here has given a decent reason to look at spring that isn't completely derived in WIFOM (e.g. only scumspring would post "notes" like that). don's walls are not aiding the situation at all because I'm not convinced spring's post was artifical, which is the foundation for which all of Goat/don/Spolium/fhq's arguments rest on.

I think we need to get Ice9, Jebus, and Plonky to post in here

as soon as possible

. I do not want this day to end before we have heard from them.

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote: How is it scummy for me to pressure Spring on that post? All of my pressure has been based on entirely valid points. Also, I thought you were "interested in seeing how my pressure on spring turned out." Apparently not?

Perhaps I am unfairly lumping you together with don and Spolium, but generally I do not see the helpfulness behind the pressure spring is getting. The actual quote is not as warm to the suggestion as you make it appear,

If Goat or Lynx want to continue pushing her on that point, then I will await and see how much else they'll learn from it, but I don't think she's scum at the moment.

as I'm basically trying to say that I don't really see the necessity behind it but I will not completely shut my mind out to it if it produces anything. As I anticpated, it's spiraling into don and spring throwing walls at each other, and I just do not see this being productive. The argument is so speculative from my point of view.

Spring and don Discourse as Reenacted by RedCoyote

spring: here are my notes, don seems scummy here because he meant spolium was longwinded
don: no way you are scum for getting that meaning, I really meant this
spring: you mean that you said you meant that? I thought you meant this
don: no I meant this how could you think I meant this? do you mean you think I meant this???
spring: no I think you mean you mean you mean you mean
don: you mean you mean you mean you mean

Please tell me, were your criticism of Ice based on what you think of his alignment, or on how you thought he should be playing?

i explained how i feel about aggressive behavior. it is not a scumtell, but it has serious anti-town potential.

Yes you have explained how you felt about "dangerous play", but you have described it as a *townie* behavior.

do not put words in my mouth.

I mean, I could go back further, this is just scrolling down to post 248. Like I said, if either of them think there is a lot of merit to be had, then I think they need to explain it a bit more succinctly for the town.

[RedCoyote]

What makes you think she doesn't have solid stances? And when did I say don didn't have solid stances/lack of vote?

This is the same point I addressed with Spolium, do you mean to say that you thought that spring would

not

vote before the deadline? If so, what gave you that impression?

spring expressed herself and her suspicions very clearly and completely. Budja, Fhq, Plonky, Ice9... these players have votes in limbo and haven't made any current contributions to the game (with the exception of Fhq, he's on that list for other reasons).

I think you're generalizing quite a few of my points Goat, and that doesn't bode well for my opinion of you.

[RedCoyote]

Mod, with

4

3 inactive players (Ice9, Budja, Ponky, and

Jebus

(Jebus just said he will post before deadline)) and a replacement for Azhrei hasn't came through, I ask that you reconsider the deadline extension.

---

Her post called about 50% of the game "milky" and she listed 1/3 of the game as players she would be willing to lynch but made no effort to do so.

I think we have an honest disagreement here. Personally I think spring was attempting to let people know that she had been following the game and was telling us where she stood currently. I do not contend that she

specifically

shyed away from voting a player because she didn't have a solid stance but rather because she was prepared to deal with the rush of responses that rightfully followed.

She made it clear who she wanted to vote, and nothing indicated that she wasn't going to cast a vote in a reasonable time after that (which she did).

You had no problem when I did that to the other 3, but you find it suspicious when I attack spring in much the same fashion. What's the difference?

fhq and Budja hadn't made a solid stance since the beginning of this game, much moreso in the case of Budja than fhq, but a majority of their posts are defensively oriented, so I agree with you there and there's no sense in arguing the point.

I disgaree with the same suggestions as they apply to spring.

They can wait and see what happens and pick and choose what wagon they want if applicable. Getting people to commit to a vote now is a good thing for a variety of reasons.

This is a good point, and I don't disagree that a person should be voting, especially on D1.

What frustrates me is that spring's post came off as anticipatory and rightfully so. She knew she was going to get several responses from everyone after she made it, and so for her to say who her top suspects were gave us the opportunity to say, "Ok, I think this one is good, but not this one" in order to persuade her. It was more or less a formality that she vote Budja, given the fact that Budja hasn't been particularly interested in scumhunting or helping the town. If she had voted Budja a few posts before she did, I don't see how it would've made much of a difference in this case. She made it clear that she suspected him, she made it clear that her vote would likely go that way on account of the deadline, everything she did was indicative of where the vote was going.

So it frustrates me that you would challenge her on this point, knowing the position she was in with, like I said, an anticipatory post like hers.

I've said this before, but there is a huge difference between expressing willingness to lynch and actually doing something to achieve that.

You don't think by puting "Note: so and so would be a good lynch candidate" in her notes is doing something to achieve a lynch when she posts it for everyone to see?

Secondly, I have pressured many of those same players for the exact same thing, which is not placing a vote or making any effort to achieve a lynch before deadline.

Absolutely, but what makes spring worse to you than the others seems ingenuine to me.

Where have I generalized any of your points?

When you said this,

Also, I thought [RC was] "interested in seeing how my pressure on spring turned out."

knowing that the context of that statement was not as positive as you made it appear.

Additionally, you're trying to frame me in such a way that I would have an equal level of suspicions of spring that I would have of Budja/fhq/don, which has not been the case.

You're asking me why I see a difference between Budja and spring's recent activity when I think there is a clear cut difference between the two. To generalize both of them by saying they both hadn't voted is, in my opinion, completely ignoring the context of the game.

---

noone said the post was completely concocted.

Reading back the responses about the amount of mistakes she made,

it seems to me these 'notes' weren't made during the game, but rather after the fact

.

Again, I feel these 'notes' were made after the fact

, which is evident in the number of 'minor' mistakes you made, some of which now should alter your view on some people

Based on the way you repeat this, I'm guessing [RC's] working under the assumption that spring was following the game and collecting evidence all along, and just chose to drop it all on us now.

Why do you assume this is the case rather than the

also plausible (and I would argue more likely) assumption that she just went back and read the game

?

(emphasis added to previous 3 quotes).

your mistakes seem less reasonable as "mistakes". I believe your intent is to misdirect town.

don, I will retract lumping your name into this general sentiment (of her post being fake), but with post 246 I think you can understand why I had it in the front of my mind that you weren't opposed to this argument. The point you were making is that she posted it delibrately to mislead, so I assumed you were in agreement with Goat and fhq's sentiments from above.

But to correct your statment, yes, people are arguing that her post was concoted.

also, how do you get this conclusion from my quote above?

I used it as more of a springboard to establish my frustration with the argument between you two.

"spring, he was stealing haiku... you not clarifying this is scummy!"

It just made me want to say, "Come on don, really?"

my current issue with her has very little to do with her lurking, and much to do with her misrepresentation of information in this game. yes, i find you more suspicious than some of the players who have not contributed as much. your entire post is opinion. you produce no evidence that Spring's notes are in any way accurate.

Her representation of me, Budja, fhq, Spolium, and others seems fair and what I about what I would expect someone with limited information to take from the game. Her conclusions, for the most part, are acceptable and rational sounding.

I think you showed a couple of comments she made in her own personal notes that weren't completely accurate, as reasonable, townie players sometimes get people's intentions wrong at one point or another. But when you say things like this,

your analysis seems ripe with misrepresentations(not just of me).

I have to stop and question why. I have specifically asked you in particular if you want me to consider a serious case against spring then I would advise you to please lay it out a little more clearly.

Most of the points you have against her are dervied in speculation over what you meant when you made a post, to which you inherently have the advantage over any other player. Like spring, I have to read your comments and come to the conclusion as to whether or not spring came up with a reasonable "note" on the post, but, don, I can't tell you how hard that is for you to prove to me knowing that you could, and I contend you are, pick on her for every minor thing in order to pad an argument.

(And if anyone was confused with the argument I made here,

I don't blame you.

This is exactly why I think the bickering between don and spring is trivial, and it's why I hate arguments that are so grounded in speculation over what one person thought that another player meant.)

you produce no evidence to show that her post is accurate. yes, she mentions that budja is scummy, but instead of producing evidence to the fact, she reduces one of his posts to "flowers and sunshine". that is blatant misrep.

As I said, I have no problem with the majority of her interpretations. I think they sound accurate for uncensored shorthand that a player takes as they go through a thread. Do I argue that I think a townie should do something like this? No. Do I think it's likely that she's trying to misrepresent you and Budja specifically? No.

---

Don, why the unvote? You seemed pretty set on Spring as scum. She wasn't in any real imminent danger of being lynched.

I'm wondering this myself.

---

!!!UPDATE!!!

i would think determining

whether ort not SL's post was genuine

would be an extremely important issue as opposed to needless.

don had to determine whether or not spring's "notes" post was genuine or artificial... right after he got through telling me in post 260 that he never considered her notes to be concoted.

I do not retract my argument from earlier, don is still in the group with Goat and fhq.

Additionally, I think him putting me at L-6 with 2 days left until the deadline is a foolhardy, suspicious move.

FoS: don_johnson

[RedCoyote]

you

called the four players out for discussing whether or not SL's post was genuine or not.

Yeah, and they did. Did you read the quotes I provided?

whether it was done while she followed the game or after the fact is not really relevant. you are strawmanning, focusing on a relatively minor point and trying to make it seem as though it is the focus of suspicions on her.

It depends, when you said "whether or not her post was genuine" did you mean genuine in the sense that she made up the notes on the spot? If not, what did you mean?

And it is relevant because I've made it clear I don't think it's plausible for someone to say that she made up the notes. That implies that she isn't paying attention to the game and that she is scum.

are you saying it is okay for SL to be suspicious of me for the "theft of haiku" post, but it is not okay for me to be suspicious of her for choosing to lurk rather than clarify something she found suspicious?

I'm saying that if you want to make a case against her for these things, you are going to have to make it much more clear to me. Refer to the end of post 254.

[RedCoyote]

My point, and someone already made it, i forget who, is that she first tried to brashly not take part in the game. When that strategy started to fail, she obviously reread the thread and threw together that post, selling it to us as her 'notes she made during the game'.

Seriously, I don't even understand the argument that she could have made that post up.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying she made it up as in she made it up out of thin air, I know exactly what you mean when you claim she made it up after the fact.

I disagree with that interpretation (that she made it up after the fact) because that interpretation necessarily means that she hasn't been paying attention which is, arguably, one of the surest signs of scum (i.e. scum don't have to hunt/pay close attention).

I of course want her to respond as well, I'm just making my position clear that as of now I

do not

think there has been a decent case made against spring, certainly not good enough to lynch her today.

[RedCoyote]

Wow, okay.

I think we all need to take a step back and analyze this, because I'm concerned this rush of sudden suspicion on me is absolutely scum-ridden.

Defending spring

This word, defense, is being thrown around much too casually. My

opinion

of spring is that she did a poor job lurking through the first part of the game, but lurking != mafia. When I bring up that players like Budja and fhq have been doing the same things and have been giving us the most, especially in Budja's case, inoffensive, vauge, and stereotypical positions that amount to almost nothing, I'm being called out for being spring's white knight.

This has nothing to do with my

opinion

on spring. I am of the

opinion

, after reading her notes and going back through my posts, that her post is genuine. I am of the

opinion

that it was not concoted, as has been suggested by multiple players. I am of the

opinion

that arguments against spring thus far have little to with anything and are almost fully derived in speculation over what someone meant or didn't mean, arguments which I think hold very little water.

Whether or not one wants to hold her more accountable for her lurking is not up for argument. I have said that I don't like it, but I've also said it would be hypocritical of me to continue to pursue that point chiefly because

I

don't think it's a rational scum move. Whether or not that position is derived in WIFOM is irrelevant because I'm not sping; I don't pretend to know why spring did or didn't do something. It's my

opinion

of her, not a stated defense of her. I told fhq my point (read: why I've gotten a different read on spring than he is) is that it didn't seem like something scum would do.

Moreover, I've said that lynching spring is acceptable today. Granted, I think that would be a bad move on the town's part, because I certainly don't think she's the most scummy player here, but spring has no one but herself to blame for ignoring the game as she hasn't given anyone an acceptable excuse of her behavior other than "deal with it".

I think especially Lynx, don, and Goat have been excessive in their characterizations of my positions and my hunting, to the point where don actually made this statement:

RC just seems to be defending spring by casting accusations that don't stick to anyone.

they

lumped several players together trying to create the impression that all the arguments against spring were one and the same when in fact, people had different issues with different areas of SL's play.

I don't know if that was a slip of tongue, but I think it's unwise to partner people up this early in the game, especially when it's based on little more than me buying spring's position over don's.

I will address more specific issues in my next post, mostly about Budja and Goat.

---

I'd really like it if people could point to specific areas as to where they'd like me to express my opinion.

Give us a general feel for every player in the game, quotes to back up what you are saying is always helpful.

Does post 185 sound fake? honest? helpful? unhelpful?

[RedCoyote]

I've never said Spring's long post wasn't genuine. You argued that I was of that opinion.

I'm guessing [RC's] working under the assumption that spring was following the game and collecting evidence all along, and just chose to drop it all on us now. Why do you assume this is the case rather than the also plausible (and I would argue more likely) assumption that she just went back and read the game?

You argue that I find spring's lurking worse than Budja/Fhq/etc. This is false, because I am not voting, nor have I voted for Spring since her long post, and instead my votes have been on...fhq and budja.

As I was rereading some of your posts, I think I spoke a little too bluntly. The impression is left when you don’t speak proportionally about spring the way you do about fhq/Budja that you suspect her more than the other two.

You argue that I said you should be equally suspicious of Budja/Fhq/spring, when I did not argue or suggest anything like that.

By asking me what the difference is between Budja and spring's recent activity.

I'm saying that I called out spring for a lack of solid stances, and in much the same fashion I have called out Fhq/Budja/Don. You had no problem when I did that to the other 3, but you find it suspicious when I attack spring in much the same fashion. What's the difference?

The reason I was more suspicious of you calling out spring is because I think you are generalizing to say that spring's activity was worse or equally as bad as Budja.

---

At one point you even questioned the 'errors' she made when she already admitted them!

Where?

---

they refers to you(RC). i interchange the terms in almost all my posts and games. mainly because when i started playing here i would get confused as to peoples genders and saw other players referring to people as they, so its somewhat subconcious. who did you think i was referring to?

The scumpair of me and spring. The context fits perfectly.

I think it's a bad move to pair people off this early in the game, and I will remember this comment.

---

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't help but get a backpedalling vibe from RC when reading #300

You shouldn't as I've mentioned the prospect of a spring lynch since post 184.

well, when it comes down to it, explaining away an extended defence of a particular player as an

opinion

is meaningless. Everything at this point is an opinion

Just like calling my "defense" WIFOM is meaningless. I don't consider it a defense. I told fhq my own opinion of spring's post, which was contrary to his own. Like I said, I don't pretend to know what spring did or didn't do, but it seems reasonable to me that scum would not have done that.

It seems reasonable to me, and that doesn't necessarily mean it would seem reasonable to you.

the fact that you are declaring other cases on Spring invalid for being WIFOM

There's something wrong with this. My contention has always been that I prefer the explanation that spring made a genuine post to the idea that it was concocted. I've made clear my own positions on spring. Without reading back, I don't think I've called another player out for a WIFOM argument on spring. I've said that many of the cases against her were derived from speculation, which is a different idea altogether.

The rest of your post is reading far too much into my word choice.

---

You're basically calling out anyone going after Spring at this point. Like don said you basically "lumped" all of us together even though we were suspicious of Spring for different reasons.

And I've since said it was unfair of me to do so. From my perspective, don's case was based on speculation, yours was based on her lurking, and Goat had a problem with her not voting.

---

if Budja is in a two manned scumteam the chance of bussing are low.

Also, you wanna keep an eye on Red now, because of the fact that he has been voting Budja since the RVS and that Budja seems to be taking everything so well.

These predictions seem contradictory.

---

Who our our replacements and what do they have to say about Budja (or anything else) based on their re-reading of the game?

millar, DO, and Plonky, I'm looking in y'alls direction.

[RedCoyote]

Excuse me.

That's all sorts of messed up.

EBWOP:

Where are our

replacements and what do they have to say about Budja (or anything else) based on their re-reading of the game?

[RedCoyote]

It would take but half a minute to search the last few pages and see whether I mentioned it before, but I guess I'll have to keep pointing it out until you own up and explain yourself.

I need to ask you a question, because it could change this entire argument altogether. When one player references another player, gives their opinion of another player's actions, in a game of mafia, does it

always necessarily

fall into a category of either offense or defense?

When someone says "if [player/s] want to continue pushing [suspect] on that point, then I will await and see how much else they'll learn from it" then it is expected that they will "await and see" what else is learned from [player/s] continued pushing; the intention to badger anyone voicing further criticism of [suspect] doesn't exactly spring to mind.

The context within the comment entailed a level of pointlessness in the current flow of questioning. Namely because I think Goat and Lynx were both pushing spring on the wrong things, that her post was flawed because they saw it as ingenuine.

If Goat or Lynx want to continue pushing her on that point, then I will await and see

how much else

they'll learn

from it,

but I don't think

she's scum

at the moment.

I emphasized specific parts of the comment to help break it down. I said I would wait and see if they learned anything, but as for me, I was in the spring = town camp at that moment.

What's throwing this discussion off is I think you are under the impression that I was just as interested in Goat's questions that he was. I was less interested in Goat/Lynx's suspicions because of these comments:

Why [does RC] assume this is the case rather than the also plausible (and I would argue more likely) assumption that [spring] just went back and read the game?

Perhaps Spring's lack of a real vote can be chalked up to her lurking move. Though failing to vote in her huge post does stand out to me still where she casts suspicion in several directions.

My entire point was that I didn't think we could learn much more from either of these points (that spring's post was concocted and/or spring's maybe town but do not forget her lurking), but that if these players wanted to keep up with it, then I will await to see what they learn from it.


---

I agree with Lynx 352; I've always thought I was Jebus' obvscum.

---

Granted, in my memory this stood out as more solid than it really is, I just found it funny that right after she admitted mistakes that you were downplaying them.

Well I hope it works for you fhq because I still don't see what you are saying at all. What you quoted me as saying was I think part of my request to get don to give us a more succinct case against spring.

I've never tried to give the impression that her post would not have interpretive mistakes to it.

[RedCoyote]

Who did [spring] protect, and why?

The million dollar question.

[RedCoyote]

- refusal to concede that he was defending Spring

I still refuse to concede that. A townie having an opinion on another player does not necessarily have to always mean a defensive/offensive position. My intentions were clear, I thought spring seemed more likely town than other candidates, but, based on policy, I would accept her lynch.

If that's defending someone, that's an awfully milky defense (pun intended).

- criticism of WIFOM while citing WIFOM as the basis of his "entire point" concerning Spring

I've come to read this as more of a "gotcha" point than anything. fhq and Goat made a WIFOM that I happened to be on the opposite side of. Since all we can do is speculate about spring's infamous post and whether or not it is genuine, it makes sense that every argument based on it will necessarily be WIFOMy. I will attack the arguments as such, regardless as to whether what I think is just as WIFOMy... if anything they should cancel themselves out and render the whole "genuine versus ingenuine" thing completely null.

This ties in heavily to point one, that is, I was a spring defender. I flatly disagree with that premise based primarily on the fact that I made it clear my support, although not preferably so, of a spring lynch.

However unlikely, I see it as a viable option, and hardly a complicated one. The only real problem was the one you mentioned - that scum could not be sure that there was a doc in the town. Regardless, the following points are of concern to me:

- In #360, Spring chastises Lynx for suggesting that Budja's claim was bold, and declares suspicion of him. It's like she was trying to draw attention away from any focus on Budja's claim (and by extension the potential implications of her counter-claim).

- The deadline was two days away. Why counter-claim when she did? Budja was the prime candidate for a lynch anyway, so why put herself at risk of being NKed when it could have been avoided?

- Budja's "good luck scumbuddy" post stands out for it's "at least I got you the Doc" comment. In fact, the brief exchange between him and Spring has the faintest hint of a last-minute distancing attempt.

For the record, I'm not trying to say I have a strong suspicion of Spring (at least, certainly not compared to my suspicions of others). The "option 3" thing jumped out at me when I was reading her first D2 post, as a result of the possible links I had identified while looking over your last posts of D1.

Does DO have what you would call a good point (post 378)? Do you think Goat being too dismissive of this proposal (post 374/381)?

---

I'm leaning towards Spring landing the succesful protection last night even if it means that the scum passed up on the doctor. There's still a chance that the scum just didn't send in a nightkill, but with the extended night phase due to Tony's absence, i think it's unlikely that the scum couldn't get the choice in time.

It should come as little surprise that, at the moment, I'm in agreement with this as well.

Like I asked Spolium, what do you think of DO's interpretation? Goat's response?

---

Post 381 is both lulz and thought-provoking. DO is pushing his chips hard and fast on the peculiar no kill/doc save/whatever last night,

I say we just bump off Spring and get some confirmation one way or the other. We (the town) are ahead in the count right now. We have some room to maneuver.

and he means business...

C'mon guys let's just do it.

Do what? Lynch spring?

I don't know... maybe it would be helpful to hear from everyone in town first? That's just me.

Plonky, fhq, millar...

reactions please.

---

Based primarily on yesterday's attempt to actively hijack the lynch before Budja's confession, I'll

vote: don_johnson

. When I figure out if his motives were genuine or not (in other words, I'm certainly not sure one way or the other), I'll be sure to adjust my vote accordingly, but, in the meantime, this is where my vote will be.

[RedCoyote]

Incidently. what does everyone think of millar13's "If i said i was mafia and wanted you all dead...what would you do to me?" from the end of D1?

Red herring. Frankly, I think he's going to be replaced. The statement itself seems like a thirteen year old's attempt at making a few waves in the game without having to really go back, read through the game, and get up to speed.

---

Um...no. Your defense of spring wasn't milky at all. Your stance on her was. If saying the attacks on spring are bad, and then throwing suspicion on the people making the attacks isn't a defense of spring, then please explain what would constitute a defense.

I'm totally lost when it comes to the "he hated on my WIFOM but used a WIFOMy defense himself" argument. I highly doubt either situation is actually WIFOM but I'd like to hear a summary of this nonetheless.

As I've addressed with you before Goat, I was a bit forward at suspecting those who were calling spring out. My response to that was because you were pressuring spring much more than anyone else, which made it seem like you considered her to be worse than other players. Basically I was reading the posts like so,

Goat: yeah budja and fhq are bad... but spring why did you do this? Why didn't you do this? You were scummy for this. You are scummy here. Explain why this happened, and what made you think this?
don: spring is so scummy read this post this is all misrepresentation... when I said this I meant this how can you think I meant this? You are strawmanning and you are misrepresenting you are very scum. RC and you are scum.
Spolium: RC why would you defend spring!!! goat makes good points against spring definitely.
Lynx: oh, spring, this post... I don't like it your lurking and everything seems very scummy
fhq: spring is definitely misreading so much I re-read it it looks sooooo scummy
Budja: well at first I liked spring but then I re-read it is all bad she is totally misrepresenting everything
Goat: yeah RC don't defend her spring needs to answer for this this this this she is acting extremely scummy

Yeah, so, very basic there, but basically you can see how the momentum is definitely being steered away from Budja here.

I don't see how my stance on her was milky at all. I made it clear that I

couldn't

defend her lurking during the beginning of the game and I

would

support a policy lynch on her if necessary. I said that I found her much more town than the rest of you did and I tried to explain how Budja and fhq were the better selections during D1.

A defense of spring would be more like, "I will not vote spring, as to her lurking, well, the ends justify the means."

---

I'm not implying anything - the mention of a third scum just stands out to me. It could suggest that you consider it likely for there to be a third scum, or perhaps you have special information which leads you to believe it. Maybe you just threw it in there to imply that anyone casting suspicion on Spring could be a third scum, or maybe you were trying to highlight what you saw to be a ridiculous situation.

I think it's more likely that there are 3 scum than there are 2, that's what I would consider the norm for a 12 person game. I'm more inclined to ask you why you would imply that a player assuming three scum seems out of the ordinary than to question whether or not Goat has some sort of information.

---

Jebus, I think you need to address Goat's 394 because I am also interested in the answer.

Mod, please prod millar13 and Plonky

.

already been done.

---

do you mind explaining this? exactly where and what was my attempt at "hi-jacking" the lynch?

Namely this quote,

redcoyote and [spring] are sitting atop my list for reasons already laid out. budja? wheres the case on budja? can someone list his scumtells?

other than his original "slip" in the poetry phase i haven't found a whole lot "scummy" from him.

"suspicious", yes, but there are a good number on non contributors in this game right now and that seems to be the biggest mark against him. i have seen alot of votes for budja, but i haven't seen much of a case. sorry, but that is my opinion. i have no problem voting to lynch before deadline, but

i see no reason to hastily string up a player who could just be "bad town"

. both you and rc seem to be laying out deliberatly crafted misinformation. i'd rather see one of the two of you swing.

(emphasis added).

There's no denying you put yourself out on behalf of Budja, right now I'm trying to decide if that was as a scumpartner coming to Budja's aid or as a townie who was seriously delibrating the lynch.

[RedCoyote]

My major problem with him is the defense of Spring. He continues to claim that was merely an opinion, I just don't think my mind will be changed about the matter.

Just answer me one question Lynx, if player A made it clear he was prepared to vote player B based on policy despite not feeling very comfortable about it, is player A defending player B?

I'm not ashamed to admit I've had a change of heart on spring. Do I agree with the way she played this game? No, and I've said as much. She says, essentially, "Well I did it, now call me out for it or don't".

Look at this post in particular.

I accepted spring's explanation over Goat and fhq's speculations, and I argued with them (and later you and Spolium) about this difference in opinion.

I said in this post in particular that I

do not

agree with the way she played this game and I obviously meant that I

COULDN'T DEFEND

her play in this game. spring said that everyone should either put up or shut up in regards to her lurking. I chose to shut up, whereas a player like don or Goat chose to put up.

I just, I don't know how I can be more clear than that. I think it's very wrong to call my position on spring as her defender because I said, in so many words, that I couldn't defend her even if I wanted to. That didn't necessarily mean that I didn't accept her interpretations however, it just meant that while I disagreed with her play and I was willing to put those feelings aside for what I perceived as the two bigger threats to the game: Budja and fhq.

---

wow. another game now where the case against me is that i appear to be town. i really have no defence. i do like how RC bolds the parts of the quote that fit his case and doesn't seem to acknowledge what the rest of the post says.

I don't think you appear to be town at all, nor is my argument intended to give off that vibe. My intention is to analyze whether or not you meant genuinely that Budja seemed innocent to you in that post, or if you were actively trying to re-route or hijack the Budja bandwagon for other, ulterior motivations.

And of course I'm going to bold the parts that emphasize my point, why wouldn't I? Just because I'm not looking as closely at the little backdoors one leaves in a comment (e.g.

the case against budja seems bad.

sorry but that's my opinion.), doesn't mean I'm not reading them.

i don't see where RC's interactions with budja were very genuine.

I don't see how you can even make that argument. I'd go so far as to say I was Budja's primary attacker yesterday.

Now, if you want to claim it was a grandiose bus, that's another argument, but to say I didn't have a genuine stance against Budja would be an outright misinterpretation of me from the beginning of the game. I have never been unclear about my positions on Budja, and I consistently asked him to provide us with more, more, more.

---

When I questioned Budja about his switch to RC, he replied that he never really found Don scummy and that he only layed down the vote because the pressure on his lack of any real stance. I think Budja just used the vote to distance from Don plain and simple.

I agree with this point. Because of Budja's general hidden, silent presence in the overall game, I had forgotten that Budja had even voted don at one point. He had hysterically left his vote on WolfBlitzer for so long that I was convinced he wasn't taking his vote seriously.

This, upon a closer look, doesn't put don in any sort of positive light. He votes don in post 282 based on arguments other people (notably me) had made against don, without so much as asking don anything or pressuring him in any sort of meaningul way.

don's response to Budja's position is apparently ambivalence. At least, he never made any effort to say he was especially concerned about Budja's vote for the time it was on him.

don makes posts 285, 290, 296, 299, and 305.

Budja unvotes don and votes me in post 304 on the basis that I was seemingly coaching spring. don is unconcerned with any of this at the time, although in his posts he finds time to address spring, me, Jebus, and even millar.

I plan to continue looking at Budja's interactions with the players in this game, but if this trend is any indication, don's complete lack of concern with Budja's vote and opinions in this game could be extremely telling.

---

But who in fact is guility of being wrong? hmmmm

millar, do you care about this game at all? Please ask for a replacement if you aren't willing to play.

---

RC, I spent more time debating my attack on Spring with you than I did actually pressuring spring.

Heh.

I'd also still like a summarizing of the WIFOM argument between you and Spolium. Either of you are welcome to provide it.

I just don't consider it much of a point. The basic premise of the argument is that, ok, spring made her infamous post, and there are, as I see it, two schools of thought on how spring created that post. Either spring completely concocted the post based on a rereading the game after the fact, as you and fhq have both argued, or she had been keeping up with the game and making notes with each post, as she claimed and I have made clear I agree with.

My frustrations with the attacks on spring were that I see those people in your school as creating a WIFOM attack (e.g. scumspring would reread the game and completely make up these "notes"), Spolium's argument is that I have no ground to stand on when making that argument against y'all because my position on spring is just as WIFOMy (e.g. scumspring

wouldn't

try that because it would put too much of a spotlight on her).

I was admittedly a little confused with Spolium at first, and knowing how prone he is to framing me in a certain way in regards to my position on spring, I was rightfully hesistant to accept any interpretation he made (post 339) of my position.

Where I stand now is that the entire argument is null because anyway you slice it it is necessarily going to be WIFOM speculation over something only spring really knows. I'm more likely now than ever to accept her explanation given the fact that I believe her to be the town doctor.

[RedCoyote]

Mod: Sorry about the double post. Please erase one.

So people don't think you're crazy: Done and done

[RedCoyote]

Then I suppose we have a different definition of the word defense.

I mean, in that sense, you could just as easily argue I was defending Goat earlier in this game during a theory argument with you.

But, Spolium, again, that's similar to saying that every statement in regards to another player is either an attack or a defense, right?

The reason I don't see myself as a "spring defender" is that she was, at that time, still lower on my list. I didn't like her lurking either, nor did I like her back and forth with don, but I obviously didn't see it as bad as someone like fhq did. To me players like Budja and Jebus had larger transgressions to account for than the fact that spring didn't vote. In retrospect, I concede that I was overlooking the fact that Goat and you were still voting Budja, but that's about as much as I can give.

When you casually use the word defense to label anyone who has a disagreement with you over another player, I don't know, to me, it starts to lose its meaning.

[RedCoyote]

It was your active criticism of every non-lurking related argument set against her that was defensive, not the fact that you shared opinions of her.

Mmm.

I criticized those who used the argument that her post was concocted, and I critized those who used the argument that her post was misrepresentative; I was defensive in that sense, defensive of what I saw as bad arguments.

I

was not

getting "ridiculously defensive", I was not "going out of my way to stand up for spring", I'm not "so adamant about defending spring that I cannot think reasonably". All of these comments, Spolium, are way overboard, and your argument is merely an extension of them because it followed the same false logic.

That presumption would be much better grounded had spring not been on the scum leaning side of my scale until she claimed, but I made it clear that I considered her to be lynch material. I certainly did not consider myself a spring defender.

Even despite that, that presumption that I was a spring defender because I didn't care for the WIFOM argument that her post was concocted (regardless as to whether or not what I thought was true was WIFOMy, since any argument we accept will necessarily be WIFOM), and that I didn't care for don and Budja complaining that she misrepresented them, is incorrect logic.

With only a few exceptions (those of which, rest assured, I haven't forgotten), many players, including Budja, have been actively attempting to tie me and spring together because I do not accept the above two propositions (her post was concocted/delibrately misrepresentative). Many of you have went so far as to say that because I do not accept those arguments, then I am thus a spring defender.

Proposed Syllogism

If someone is a spring defender then they will dispute attacks against spring.
RC disputed attacks against spring.
Therefore, RC is a spring defender.

The reason why that logic is incorrect is because it is affirming the consequent.

I wanted to see if Lynx would bite down on this, hence the reason I had asked Lynx and not you, but this is what I was leading toward.
---

Hi, Weekend V/LA notice.

But... you haven't posted during the week either!

[RedCoyote]

What are the exceptions you mentioned in the first sentence?

Jebus, Plonky, DO, and millar

Yeah, I know

Can you cite where someone said you were a Spring defender as a consequence of not accepting arguments against Spring?

...

Just to clarify, are you attributing this to me?

Yes sir.

It was

your active criticism of every non-lurking related argument

set against her

that was defensive

, not the fact that you shared opinions of her.

(emphasis added).

The posts that have documented FoSs on me during D1 will follow the same sort of logic, but using your words will make my point a little more clear. I criticized arguments against her, therefore I was a spring defender. I don't agree with that conclusion, and I contend that it is a fallacy.

The fact that you're voting for me based on it, even if as but a means to apply pressure, shows that you have at least some stake in this argument that I simply cannot agree with.

Question: How do you define "defence"?

As some crazy British word XD

No, seriously I would define defense as a player standing up for another player on the basis of their personal conclusions of them. I don't think, as you may, that a player can sincerely defend a player whom they believe is scum. Maybe I was defending the public sphere from arguments I saw as faulty?

Hmmm...

May I retort with a follow-up question? Do you understand, to any degree, my unwillingness to be labeled as spring's defender, especially at the time, if I was still seriously considering her own position in this town?

I'm seriously beginning to think it's not worth arguing the point any longer, and let's just let the town believe that I was the spring defender if only to move this argument along. At the time, I was being suspected for criticizing the attacks against spring because that supposedly made me a spring defender, but now that I've tried to explain that I wasn't a spring defender, nor was I trying to be (and even cited quotations stating in so many words that I couldn't defend her actions), I'm being voted for trying to "backpedal". Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario I got myself into here.

---

are you implying a "gambit" or something? i don't really understand what you're saying here. thanks.

It's just that Spolium had answered the question I proposed to Lynx. I proposed it to Lynx specifically because I thought as though I would have an easier time explaining my position to Lynx than I would to Spolium, given the history of the game.

[RedCoyote]

Partially through my re-read of D1, plan to post my conclusions sometime this weekend.

[RedCoyote]

RC's observations of D1

When [Budja's] trying to provoke discussion, it's impossible to determine exactly what sort of discussion is going to arise (particularly so in a game where everyone is second-guessing themselves/others, and scum are waiting to pounce on any careless townie).

The first post I want to bring to everyone's attention is post 58 by Spolium. Spolium and Goat would have a serious theory discussion here over what is and isn't scummy about pressure votes, specifically Budja's vote.

What Spolium says here is notable because Spolium makes his intention's clear that he sees nothing scummy about Budja's vote in this post. He claims to see one null tell, the fact that Budja announced that his vote was intended to be weak, which he considers "anti-town" but not "scummy".

The part I quoted in particular I simply disagree with, and it appears to be reaching in an attempt to answer the question Goat asked Budja.

Goat asks Budja what discussion he planned to spark with his vote, and Spolium intercedes saying that anything Budja will say may get him into hot water.

It worked. Budja never answered this question, was never held accountable for it, and a likely reason is because of Spolium's intervention.

[Budja,] the problem is that you were trying to take us out of the random stage with a vote that was "no worse than a random vote" and "meaningless".

[...]

unvote [Budja]

This also has to do with the hullabaloo over Budja's vote.

The reasons I don't like this post are two-fold.

First, don just blantantly accepts that Budja's intentions were to try to "get us out" of the RVS. To be fair to don, he wasn't the only one to just accept that Budja's vote was the first "real" vote, but he was the first person to state it so bluntly. My whole argument at this point in the game, contrary to the problems other players had with Budja, was that I thought Ice9's vote on WolfBlitzer was, without question, not random.

To everyone else, a wagon we need
My words are what you surely should heed
WolfBlitzer is trying to deflect what I've said
So I say to you all, "Off with his head!"

Poetry or not, I don't see how one can misinterpret this. I guess as sarcasm? In either case, I could further argue, as Ice9 did in this post as well, that WolfBlitzer's original (and only) vote on magisterrian in post 9 (!) wasn't random because he calls her post "scary" and claims she is "chainsawing" for another player.

My point being

that the RVS was long dead and gone before Budja voted, and I hit him for claiming that it wasn't, and I'm hitting don here for, essentially doing the same thing with this quote.

Secondly, don unvotes Budja with very little reason for doing so. He never claims he accepts Budja's explanation, he just unvotes, almost as if he never really cared for his vote to be there in the first place. Now that Budja has flipped mafia, this necessarily entails much more suspicion than it might otherwise have.

This was something to push the town out of the joking random phase(which it pretty much did). I believe [Budja's] sparking discussion and pushing us out of the random phase defenses are one in the same and not contradictory.

Same point I made with don's post above. Lynx is just as dismissive of Ice9 and Wolf's votes, which, I contended, had already effectively put an end to the RVS.

I didn't realise Ice was being serious on his suspicion, maybe more serious than a complete random vote but not much. It was page 2!

It was page 2! is not a valid excuse. Is there an arbitrary number of pages that have to be produced before votes can be considered serious? If so, I didn't get the memo.

This helps solidify my point that Ice9's vote was indeed

not random

as Budja claimed, and as don, Spolium, and Lynx have agreed with.

Moreover, Ice9 votes Budja here.

My argument was that in my experience Budja has played like this as town

Ice9 brings this up later, but this meta defense of Budja is undoubtedly a tough pill for Spolium to swallow now.

---

Surely you dolt, I'm not active lurking. I'm lurking lurking, which is not the same thing.

Who could forget this?

spring, of course, was lying here; She was active lurking. I think he distinction between the active lurking and "lurking lurking" is complete bunk. She was following the game, she just claims she never wanted to post.

Lynx and Azhrei vote her for this post, me and Goat FoS her for it.

don voted her as well, but his vote was the cause of this post.

Ice9 is the first player to bring up the idea that spring maybe a scapegoat, and pushes don and Azhrei specifically for this, which Goat agrees with.

---

As I said before, I don't think this excuses Budja from elaborating further, and I'm still waiting to see what else he has to say about it. At this point his lack of further defence is piquing my interest far more than his initial actions.

This gives Spolium some creditability back, IMO.

@

don_johnson

: Why did you unvote Budja when you did? Why haven't you mentioned him since then?

i don't think a poetic slip was worth the continued pressure.

i think it would be better for me to reread instead of tunneling on [Budja] for one post.

Bad, bad, a million times bad.

The only excuse I can give don here that isn't completely grounded in manipulating the arguments against Budja is that he isn't paying attention to the game at all.

I know, at the very least, me, Ice9, and Lynx all had documented problems with Budja that were not based on poetry at all. Accused of hypocrisy and piggybacking, Budja was well beyond the point where he could be given a pass for having poetry problems.

don had to have known that, I mean, what the heck did he think Spolium and Ice9 were arguing about?

This is either a subtle strawman-ish defense of Budja (reducing all problems with Budja to "poetry malfunctions"), or just not paying enough attention to the game.

don commits this sin later in the game.

---

It's difficult to analyze the walls that Spolium and Goat threw at each other given that, at the time, I read them both as more townie than scummy, and, as of now, I still do.

Spolium has a way of pushing the enevlope just enough to make me think he's a contrary townie, but not to the point where I think he's purposefully trying to construct a false reality.

I saw that then and I see that now as I reread this. Spolium 119 is a perfect example, even though he never addresses Budja, I can't really call him out for it because he makes great points against me, spring, don, and Goat.

---

I do think everyone has ignored the fact that spolium pointed out his gameplay was verified by his meta. This was also one of the bases of my argument that we shouldn't tunnel on Budja, which I felt was happening at the time.

Yikes, unlike don, fhq's defense here isn't as subtle.

I don't see Budja being tunnelled at this point at all, I think Ice9, Spolium, spring, and fhq have received a fair share of heat in this game.

Why is fhq just more or less repeating what don claimed?

---

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

Obstinate and oblivious.

---

Anyway, right off I'm getting scum-vibes from fhqwhgads

Post 32 - Budja jumps on wolfwagon. I like this move.

fhqwhgads - ~town

springlullaby - ~anti-town town

Oh, and Vote: Springlullaby

The reasoning should be obvious.

Jebus here feels very broken, very scatterbrained. I don't know if I would go so far as to call him hypocritical, just very peculiar I guess. I think Jebus is the kind of player who changes his mind easily.

Nevertheless, Jebus was unapologetically supportive of Budja here.

Post 35 - RedCoyote. About halfway through he declares the RVS over, something I've learned is a bad move.

This could just be a policy that Jebus has that I disagree with, but if he disputes that the RVS had been over long before I made that comment, than I think he's in the same camp as don and Lynx in that they either aren't reading close enough or are delibrately trying to minimize the case against Budja.

Jebus made it clear that he thought Ice9 randomly voted Wolf, but that context of Ice9's posts beg to differ. Refer to the earlier part of this post.

---

As far as Budja goes, it was and is still his inital move that left me feeling bad, coupled with his so-so participation and generally vanilla commentary ("omg spring how could you") have kept me in the lynch Budja camp.

This has been consistent throughout the game, but I think it was summed up well here. Budja's defenses were bad, his hunting was non-existant, his position on spring was artifical sounding, his original comment/vote... all of this was being harped on by me.

Spolium, fhq, don, Jebus, and Lynx, so far, are those I think had put a tangible effort at undermining this case at one point or another, be their intentions pure or not.

Don_Johnson: You FoS RedCoyote, but aren't voting anyone right now. Why a FoS? Where's your vote? Looking back I see you FoS Jebus earlier but no vote as well there. Are you afraid to vote?

I missed this at the time, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Especially on D1.

Come to think of it, even after just rereading the thread up to this point, I couldn't tell you who don thinks is town/scum other than he showed a vested interest in undermining the cases against Budja.

[post] 62. general pov, UNVOTE - hard to tell why the unvote here but not scummy, more soft play

hard to tell why the unvote? interesting as i gave two solid reasons. >>

Only after Ice9 provoked you did you give reasons, and your reasons were, I would argue, misleading at best, and scummy at worst.

Your basic reason for the unvote is that you thought Budja explained himself well and that there was a poetry slip up. The facts just don't agree with this, and this is especially bad considering Budja's flip.

I'd like to point out that Budja, FHQ, and Spring have all still not placed a serious vote in this game. Perhaps Spring's lack of a real vote can be chalked up to her lurking move. Though failing to vote in her huge post does stand out to me still where she casts suspicion in several directions. I think FHQ and Budja are even worse with this fact.

This lends Lynx some creditability that I would not have otherwise given him credit for.

If we're approaching a no-lynch situation, I'll vote whichever gives us a lynch. Otherwise, I'll

vote: Budja

on the basis of unhelpful wishy-washy filler posts and the fact that everyone has provided an opinion on him (see above). I'm not entirely happy about doing so as it feels more like a dead-weight vote than an I-am-confident-he-is-scum vote, but my meta argument for him only goes so far. Spring's more recent burst of activity gives her the edge here in my eyes.

Because of how he qualifies this comment, it's hard to give Spolium too much credit here, but this is certainly worth more than don, fhq, or Jebus.

SpringLullaby

Budja

Red Coyote
Fghjdads
Ice9
Azrhei?
Jebus?
Plonky?
Lynx
Goat
Spolium

don's list, contrast this with...

redcoyote and [spring] are sitting atop my list for reasons already laid out. budja? wheres the case on budja? can someone list his scumtells? other than his original "slip" in the poetry phase

i haven't found a whole lot "scummy" from [Budja].

"suspicious", yes, but there are a good number on non contributors in this game right now and that seems to be the biggest mark against him.

i have seen alot of votes for budja, but i haven't seen much of a case.

sorry, but that is my opinion.

(emphasis added to both).

This is what we call a contradiction; This is what we call scummy.

And as for my vote,

vote: don_johnson

.

Very little interaction with don in this game, and this post is the first I have even heard of Budja having problems with don.

If this isn't arbitrary, I don't know what is. The only other think I can think of would be that he was trying to buy good graces from spring, Goat, Spolium, and me by showing that spring is making a good sub-case against don.

But that doesn't adequately explain how he comes to unvote don and vote me in post 302 without don addressing him or his suspicions at all during this time.

Can you say, straw that broke the camel's back?

Ladies and gentleman, based on my observations, don_johnson is mafia.

---

My list:

[Town]----spring--Lynx--Goat----Spolium---DO[∙]-millar--Plonky----fhq-Jebus------don-[Scum]

Lynx and Spolium get special treatment although their names were both heavily mentioned in my reread because I think they were sincerely considering Budja's role during D1. Contrast this with a player like fhq, a player who hasn't been using his vote, who hasn't been as open to other arguments, and who has portrayed the case against Budja inaccurately either intentionally or not.

I would be content with lynching fhq or Jebus today, but I strongly prefer don (that's a 6 hyphen distance!).

---

atm I'm torn between DO for his absurd 'policy vote' suggestion and RC.

Is that really all your basing your vote on today?

Personally I think you would have looked much better if you just conceded on being on the defense for spring.

Then why did you say this?

All in all, [RC] staunch defense of SL is disturbing to me.

Why aren't these statements contradictory?

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP:

[Town]----spring--Lynx--Goat----Spolium-millar--DO[∙]---Plonky----fhq-Jebus------don-[Scum]

Slightly changed my list because I had forgotten that millar replaced Ice9. I considered Ice9 to be leaning town. While millar certainly hasn't done anything to help himself (I'd probably have put Ice9 more townie than Spolium before), I can't justify putting him on the scum side of the scale.

[RedCoyote]

looking back and saying "this and that" were obvious and everyone should have known. unfair way to push a case. it rests entirely in the knowledge we have now that we didn't have yesterday.

Should the town not look back to Day 1 to acquire knowledge that it didn't have yesterday when considering a lynch?

I have more I'd like to discuss with you don, but this is what sticks out most because I disagree 100% with you if that's your argument.

I'll be back later tonight.

[RedCoyote]

i listed my reasons with my unvote post. not after.

You list invalid reasons that you cannot hope to back up. Show me one piece of evidence in any of Ice9's posts that would prove you and Budja that Ice9's vote was random.

Until you can do that, that reason is faulty. I addressed that.

This goes for every player in this game besides us, but I implore anyone to go look at post 62. don claims there are multiple reasons for his unvote, but I see one reason here, that he bought Budja's apology... and even that I have to only assume through the context with which he makes the post since he never outright says it.

I actually find myself agreeing more with don's second paragraph, but that's beside the point. Regardless of Budja's intentions, he was absolutely not the first person to "try to take us out of the random stage".

there was action in the thread between those posts which led to my "scum list" being adjusted. sorry if i didn't explain that well enough, but your continued defense of spring arose my suspicions moreso than Budja.

Which absolutely explains why you had the right to move me above Budja, and I'm willing to accept that, but when you have someone on your list as 2nd

or

3rd most scummy, given that three scum is extremely probable in a 12 person game, it is expected for someone to consider that person scummy.

If you didn't, as you said, find "a whole lot 'scummy' from him", then why was he number 2 on your list? I can only assume, prior to spring's infamous post, Budja was number 1 on your scumlist given the fact that you were up in arms when I suggested spring might have to be policy lynched for lurking.

In other words, I'll give you credit for moving Budja from 2 to 3 over the period of those posts, but that still doesn't mean you can turn around and say you don't see a lot of scummy in Budja. If you don't see a lot of scummy in Budja, then he shouldn't have been so high to begin with.

sorry. i disagree. none of the votes were truly random.

This is contradictory. You disagree with my contention that Budja didn't have the first "real" vote yet you say the votes before Budja's weren't random?

matter of opinion. in all honesty, i felt that my vote was the most serious one and actually brought us out of the random joke vote phase.

It isn't a matter of opinion, Ice9 made it perfectly clear that his vote was serious. To argue this point is to push a false history of this game. Ice9 even went so far as to belittle Budja when Budja claimed that he thought Ice9's vote was random. If that doesn't explain it to you, then you're just ignoring the truth.

i disagreed with the condemnation budja was recieving.

Like I said earlier in this post, your reasoning is based on the idea that Budja's vote is the first real vote, which is patently false. Budja cannot have been "trying to get us out of the random stage" because we were already out of the random stage. Period.

Now, other players may accept this as a valid reason, but given that I didn't have the problem that Goat and Spolium may have had with Budja admitting his vote was a pressure vote or whatever, I don't take comfort in the fact that you discredit these arguments. To me, you never addressed the real problems I saw with Budja's vote, so to me that looks scummy when I reread this game.

Moreover, I'm not going to make the claim that you are the only player who takes the position that Budja was "trying to get us out of the random stage", because I know for a fact that players like Jebus accepted that notion as well. I take issue with the fact that you so bluntly accept that to be the case, effectively dismissing Ice9 and Wolf's votes as random, and dismissing my argument altogether. I think that is incorrectly reading the game, especially due to Ice9's clarifications, hence I see you as scummy for doing so.

just because budja was playing poorly didn't make him scum in my book.

Again, it's not my concern that you considered his vote bad because of it was a pressure vote or his admittance or pressure or his apology... whatever. None of that concerns me at all. I'm concerned with that fact that you just clean accepted his claim that he was the vote to "get us out of the random stage". I'm not saying my case was incredibly strong at that point, but for you (and Jebus, fhq, Spolium...) to not even acknowledge Ice9 and Wolf was troubling to me.

actually, here again you are dismissing the larger portion of my post and trying to make it seem as if my argument is narrow. i presented several rebuttals to your findings and yet you focus on one part of my post and imply that it alone makes up what is my "argument".

I have more I'd like to discuss with you don, but this is what sticks out most

because I disagree 100% with you if that's your argument.

In other words, that's not the only thing I wanted to address, and I don't appreciate you framing me in that way.

of course the town should analyze day 1. i never implied that to not be viable.

looking back and saying "this and that" were obvious and everyone should have known. unfair way to push a case. it rests entirely in the knowledge we have now that we didn't have yesterday.

I'll let the town decide if that implication is there or not, but I believe that it is.

however, to look at day1 and assert that

it should have been clear then

, as clear as it is in hindsight, is fallacious.

(emphasis added).

Oh no, I hope that's not what you are taking from my commentary. I don't wish to convey such bravado. I think you as scum based on a multitude of factors that I'm only able to see

after

Budja flipped scum, many of my points are dependent on that. By no means do I want you, or anyone, to think that I'm saying, "lol don is obvscum knew it all along".

it is also dabbling in wifom to assume that if i were budja's scum partner that i would avoid his wagon. if his scumminess was as "obvious" as you are claiming it to have been, then most likely his partner(s) are on the wagon somewhere.

LMAO.

don: rc, it is kinda wifom for you to say me avoiding budja is suspicious...
don: most likely scum would be on the wagon

Well don, if I was dabbling in WIFOM, you just dove right in with that one.

And, again, I've never claimed you or Budja was obvscum. None of points are using the fact that I am faulting other players for not getting Budja right. I am of course holding Spolium accountable for his earlier defense of Budja, but that's not because I think Budja's guilt "should have been obvious" but that I'm trying to decide whether or not he sincerely felt he was innocent or was just trying to pretend like he did.

---

This is patently misleading.

[...]

Given that you criticised every attack that wasn't grounded in her lurky behaviour, the notion that you believed her to be scum and could not "sincerely defend" her on this basis is a difficult one to grasp.

Is it misleading or are you not differentiating your point effectively enough for me to be able to tell the difference?

If just criticizing attacks is enough to constitute a defense of someone or something in your eyes, then that's your definition.

Again, I do not subscribe to that definition. If said person doesn't have a

sincere stake

in whatever object or idea he or she is criticizing the attacks against, then they necessarily cannot be labeled as their defender. I did not have a

sincere stake

in spring given that a) I did not know her alignment b) I was supportive of her lynching c) I had criticized her several times earlier in the thread and d) I made it clear that I was not fond of her play.

I honestly don't see how it's all that difficult to grasp. Just because I thought certain arguments were bad doesn't necessarily mean I thought the person who the arguments were being made toward was good, because therein lies the fallacy. I've contended that this is a necessary part of being someone's defender, because otherwise why would I make an effort to defend?

But then, I'd also expect you to let Spring address the arguments herself. If you were so uncertain about her position, why attack almost every criticism that went her way?

It's difficult for you to make this specific argument given the complaints that you were shielding Budja in this way, but mainly because I thought the arguments carried little weight and I thought Budja and fhq were being put on the backburner.

Now getting caught up in the heat of the moment led me to unfairly push Goat's conclusions in ways that I shouldn't have, I'm willing to concede that.

But then, you also said that the Spring lynch would be "a bad move on the town's part" because you didn't think she was the scummiest player in the game.

Yeah, a bad move in comparison to lynching Budja or fhq. I've had that opinion this entire game and never argued that I didn't.

If this town will not budge on spring for a more reasonable lynch (e.g. Budja, fhq, possibly Jebus), then I will also change my vote if necessary.

Moreover, once spring began posting, the was no longer a need to policy lynch her based on lurking. Consequently, I saw her as more townie than I had before, and I didn't see the use in harping back to a policy lynch that no longer can apply.

But what you're trying to imply is that she was my number one townie, which isn't true.

Conceding that he was defending her from attacks which he saw as invalid is such a small thing, so why all the hoops?

such a small thing

RC seems intent on defending townspring

, but he has produced little which proves any of his beliefs. i.e. why is he so sure that SL is town?

[...]

vote: RedCoyote

All in all, [RC's] staunch defense of SL is disturbing to me.

One can only wonder, then, why the focus of

[RC's] defence of Spring

is based on WIFOM.

FoS: RedCoyote

Coyote, I think not buying a case is one thing, but to

go this much out of your way to stand up for Spring

is a little much.

FOS:RedCoyote

Spolium pointed out very recently that [RC] has been

over-supportive of Spring

and I agree with this. This does

seem a bit suspect

to me.

[RC's] getting ridiculous here in [his] defense of [spring].

[RC is] so adamant about defending spring that [he's] unable to reasonably assess the situation.

Or maybe [RC's] scum buddying up to [townspring]... might want to keep that in mind if you're town.

RC just seems to be

defending spring

by casting accusations that don't stick to anyone.

they

lumped several players together trying to create the impression that all the arguments against spring were one and the same when in fact, people had different issues with different areas of SL's play.

(emphasis added to some of the above posts).

Damned if I do, and damned if I don't.

---

fhq,

I found this when I was rereading,

Fine, I take [RC's] point about your 'defending' of spring

, but the matter of the fact is that you DO talk a LOT about her, and not much else.

RC, I just don't buy your 'opinion vs defense' argument

(or is that just my opinion?). Personally I think you would have looked much better if you just conceded on being on the defense for spring. This justification of your defense that isn't one is just doesn't work for me.

(emphasis added).

Can you explain?

[RedCoyote]

What vote?

Well, I had just assumed you were planning to vote at some point today.

I am willing to give you town points for admitting as much.

"Town points" is certainly an improvment over calling my position "disturbing" I suppose. I'll take it.

Seriously though, this is how I see things:

RC confers with the town

RC: Calling spring out for not voting seems weak in contrast to Budja, who still has his vote on a person who was replaced two weeks ago.
Everyone else: Wow, defending spring, eh? FoS: RC
RC: No, that's not the point. I'm not defending her, but don's back-and-forth with spring is extremely speculative and, even if it holds water, it holds little compared to what we have on others. Further, calling her out for not voting in a post she specifically said was a copy and paste of her notes isn't a very fair argument either.
Everyone else: Backtrack much?
RC: *sigh*

Like I told Spolium fhq, it's not worth the fight. I made it clear that spring did things that I didn't agree with, and because of that, I couldn't oppose her lynch.

I still contend that criticizing arguments != defending the victim of the arguments, but if you refuse to accept that, then just consider it a defense of spring. The difference is, I'm going to be voted or suspected for "defending spring", then I have to make a stink about it.

I changed my mind? Initially I thought it to be a fair argument, but looking back and reading the back and forth, I get much more the feeling of you backpeddling.

Well I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think you were fence sitting or playing both sides of the argument or anything like that.

[RedCoyote]

unvote

Will comment later.

[RedCoyote]

don, consider any case aspects against you retracted, if you have anything you wish to address with me that isn't related to my D1 read, I'll be happy to answer it, but I believe your claim and you've made quite a substansial jump on my scale because of it.

For future reference, I think of the Watcher as more of a protective role than an investigative one. Use your power on those who you think will be acted upon during the night. I've already assumed that Budja was the only scum roleblocker given the lack of a night kill.

---

Welcome hohum and sekinj!

sekinj, you've basically got a clean slate to work with replacing Plonky. Plonky had maybe 3 posts, every post could be summed up as, "I'm about to start rereading guys, what should I look for?" Plonky replaced magisterrain, who basically left before the game got started. I think she only made 2 posts.

hohum, you're replacing millar13, who was generally unhelpful and lurky, but who I didn't really fault too much for. He replaced Ice9, who I considered to be significantly townie. I don't believe Spolium is very fond of you, but other than that I think you're in relatively neutral standing.

Neither of you are in bad standing with me personally.

---

I'll save y'all the suspense of wondering who I'm going to be interested in next because I still believe I have a good beat on this game despite (likely) messing up my don read. In other words, my two biggest suspects today are still found in Jebus and fhq, and I ever so slightly prefer that we

vote: Jebus

.

This is by no means a vote I would push with the same gumption I gave to my don vote, but I believe I can create a reasonable case against Jebus.

What I'd really like Jebus to do in order to help himself and this town out is to give more of his opinions. What's his reaction to the new claim? How does he feel about my post 440? Has his suspects changed based on today's no kill? Does he have anything to say to the replacements?

Thread also needs more Goat, spring, and DO.

[RedCoyote]

First thing, I'm going to go ahead and

unvote

again. I think Jebus helped himself with post 475, but that's not entirely why I'm unvoting him. Now that Jebus has given us some thoughts I feel better keeping my vote down until the replacements get a good feel for this game.

---

do carry on

I think I finally figured out what you're trying to do, and I don't approve of it.

Are you purposefully lurking this way to scope out those who continue to call you out on it? If you are, I don't think that is going to help us any longer. I think most players here consider your claim relatively solid, you would likely help us much more if you would pressure other players based on the information you know.

I mean, if you have decided to hold on to your potential doc save (which I do not agree with), you could at least put that knowledge to use by helping to hunt.

---

Goddamnit RC. The whole defence thing still strikes me as dodgy, but your replies and analysis ping town for me.

I'm a

goon

loyal, honest-to-goodness member of this town, that's my job. XD

---

Hey guys, I'm glad not all 19 pages are in poetry.

Think of all the fun you could make
using poetry to hunt those townie fakes!

Now our poetry is done by our lovely mod,
and he may use it for a scene or a prod.
I'm certainly grateful, not only for that,
but now another Texan with her cute little cat!

---

I disagree, I honestly think Spring is more town for that, just based off of Budja's late D1 play. Either way, we really should keep Spring around for a while, and come back to this later if necessary.

I have to agree with Jebus here. It was interesting that Budja didn't say good luck

scum

rather than good luck

scumbuddy

. I can't say how practical that distinction may or may not be right now though given the fact that whether Budja has one or two partners, we still just have to find

a

scum today.

Also, somehow the thought of a Lynx + Fhq scumteam popped into my head.

I wouldn't say that's completely implausible given the similar stances they've taken without really pushing one another too much, but I feel comfortable with Lynx at the moment.

Not really, it's just that I typed that as I went through the readthrough, and my opinions changed as more info came in. Sort of like averaging numbers where the first few happen to be outliers. Also, one zero can bring a group of 100's way down.

I understand what you're saying (and I'll bet spring

really

does), it's difficult to give a summary of a game as a replacement without coming across as spotty or misinterpreting.

[RedCoyote]

hohum, how's the reread coming along? Have you found the scum yet?

---

personally, i disagree. though it may help to know who spring protected, spring may have good reasons for not saying. obviously, as the game progresses, town will most likely want this knowledge, but to say "there's no reason" for her not to say is incorrect.

I'm torn. don is right here, spring does have a reason for holding onto the information, and I think sekinj is helpful for pushing Jebus to be more factual with his accusations.

On the other hand, I'm also very aggravated with spring. I need to understand her thought process. I don't know how she can use her information without asking questions, even if only indirectly. It's hard for me to just "sit back and see what develops" because, hypothetically, what if she saved Jebus last night? Then what? Then, assuming Jebus is our lynch, she drops that bombshell two days before the deadline and we have to rush to find another lynch?

What can I say? I certainly won't go as far as Jebus to say that I'm thinking she isn't doc, because, coupled with the no kill last night, I see no reason for a real doctor to let spring continue to claim the role. I don't think the mafia no killed, that's a gambit I refuse to seriously consider, not after losing a roleblocker on D1.

Hmmm...

If only our mod would be so kind
as to give out some kicks in the 'hind.

Mod, please prod Goat and DO.

Done

and

done.

[RedCoyote]

I'll take the kettle under consideration, pot

Mod owes me a new monitor, I just spit a mouthful of water all over mine. XD

[RedCoyote]

you say this as if SL needs your advice. seems like you are seizing a chance to come off as pro town here.

This.

I think the little spat between them is null, but post 524 sounded opportunistic to me.

Nothing major for me, certainly not enough for a vote just yet, but it seems awkward nonetheless.

---

Now pretty much time for me to reveal whom I protected, if only to get the info out here. I protected Spolium.

This makes 4 from my point of view. Although I was already leaning somewhat town on Spolium, Spolium can relish in the fact that he's just been upgraded past Goat and Lynx because of this.

Looking at spring's explanation, holding the information until now was probably for the best.

But I don't think I agree with her on this point,

could mean the following: that I was very wrong in my N1 evaluation, and that scum counted on my being wrong to lead town to mislynches. I didn't want to create a situation in which, by being vocal, it would be easy for scum to hide in my shadow.

because it sounds a little pointless.

I mean, we still have had more than enough lurking to go around, with or without spring.

In any case, I'm actually a little more cautious about Goat at this point. As opposed to DO, who at least made some sort of stance today, I don't think Goat has expressed himself in any meaningful way today. I would certainly not rule out a scumGoat at this point, as I believe Goat may have seen Spolium as his most tangible threat.

The scum may also know something specific about Spolium, although I won't even venture to guess what that might be. Needless to say, Spolium's opinions from this point on (as well as his previous ones) are all the more valuable now.

For lurking close to a deadline after promises of activity and for spring's revealing of her protection of Spolium last night, I've got to

FoS: Goatrevolt

.

Moreover I could very, very easily see a bus of Budja while constantly pushing spring into the spotlight. I don't need to tell you guys how much of an interest Goat showed in keeping spring and me in the forefront of the day's discussion.

---

I still think the best lead we have to go off of today is the treatment of Budja.

I would still support an fhq lynch, but Goat has literally taken a freefall down my list based mostly on spring's visit and his activity today. The former being a crucial piece that could get be just the thing to build a serious case.

I would not be interested in a sekinj or DO lynch at the moment.

I'm most interested in hearing from Goat and Spolium, and I would also generally like to hear more from hohum, DO, and fhq.

Based on the reasons I gave in post 440/449, the flipflop on the defense/opinion thing, the defense of Budja, the suspected coaching, the popping in just enough not to look lurky, the constant lack of effort put into scumhunting today (either me or DO) and yesterday (no strong alternative lynch to propose when he didn't support Budja), and Lynx's post 513, I'll go ahead and

unvote

and

vote:fhqwhgads

.

My brain says fhq is prime scum material, but my instincts are telling me Goat is bad news. I would absolutely be willing to switch my vote to Goat based on the way I'm feeling right now.

[RedCoyote]

Now we're getting into confusion territory.

unvote

RC

, is your suspicion of Goat mostly linked to vibes? His inactivity in general make his lurking a null tell to me. Do you see him as having one of the strongest ties to Budja?

His inactivity as an effect of the NK may be contrasted sharply with his D1 activity. However, due to the fact that he hasn't been posting anywhere else for the past 3 days means that I'm starting to get more of an impression that Goat's lurking in genuine.

What made this idea go off in my head is the fact that spring protected Spolium. If someone had asked me who would be the first person to target Spolium last night I would've said Goat immediately. That and the fact that I could read his D1 in isolation and point out many attempts Goat made at moving the conversation from Budja to me and spring.

---

Jebus' protection claim doesn't add up though. I heavily doubt Spring would be scum target number 1. In fact, if his claim is correct, why would he protect someone who counterclaimed a role he KNOWS is false. This makes no sense.

The only sense I can make of it is that Jebus thought the scum would for sure try to take out spring, so he decided to not claim and protect whatever Doctor survived. This significantly up his chances of a save. This also means that Jebus never really thought that spring was scum at any point, which I can tell you just hits all sorts of red flags with me.

---

is there a way to use my ability to confirm one or both of our alleged two doctors?

Yes, it would involve having both doctors and you visit the same person.

Of course, this would leave either Doctor claim vulnerable to a NK.

---

I predict three different possibilities,

A) Jebus is Doctor; spring is Doctor.

• 1) Jebus' protection of spring makes sense (and, thus, his unwillingness to claim Doctor during D1).
  2) The no kill last night makes more sense (why spring is still alive).
  3) Both spring and Jebus consider this option possible.

B) Jebus is Doctor; spring is scum,

• 1) Budja admitted to being scum saying this,

  Good luck to my scumbuddy. At least I got you the Doc .

  perhaps Budja wouldn't have given up so quickly
  except for the fact
  that his scumbuddy cc'd him? Perhaps he would've tried harder to explain why he was the Doctor and spring wasn't?
  2) spring not having a gaugable opinion throughout most of D2 while she attempts to choose who she would give her "protection" to.
  3) Jebus' consistent pressure of spring's identity and for her to state who she protected.

C) Jebus is scum; spring is Doctor,

• 1) Jebus sees a brilliant opportunity in claiming that he protected spring (as it makes more sense that the scum would try to kill spring than anyone else).
  2) In order to cast a completely artifical line of attack on DO for a stance that may or may not have been innocuous.
  3) Jebus' queer willingness to completely accept spring as another Doctor or as a townie gambit.

Quotes to take note of

:

Hmm. Either I succeeded in my protect. Either there wthe as no kill/ delayed kill/ some other kind of screw.

Option 3: you are scum, there is no doctor and you orchestrated the doc claim/counter claim and the subsequent no kill to throw people off the scent.

Budja's "good luck scumbuddy" post stands out for it's "at least I got you the Doc" comment. In fact,

the brief exchange between him and Spring has the faintest hint of a last-minute distancing

attempt.

There's still a chance that the scum just didn't send in a nightkill, but with the extended night phase due to Tony's absence, i think it's unlikely that the scum couldn't get the choice in time.

It's not that difficult for me to entertain the possibility that they said to each other "Hey, let's try this Doc gambit. If the real Doc shows up, we're screwed, but let's just go for it." If I was scum, I would probably agree to do it (although I doubt I'd think of it myself.) GoatRevolt says that it's a highly complicated gambit, but to me it seems really really simple. Very risky, yes, but complicated, not at all.

I say we just bump off Spring and get some confirmation one way or the other.

We (the town) are ahead in the count right now. We have some room to maneuver.

I am still curious who Spring will claim to have protected.

Budja: Hey, I've got this great idea. I'm going to act really scummy, and you're going to lurk hard.
Spring: I like where your head is at. But what would we stand to gain from doing this.
Budja: Ah yes, that is where my diabolical plot comes to fruition. The town, seeing me act scummy, will attack me for acting scummy.
Spring: Your skills at logical deduction are truly staggering. When this comes to pass, what then?
Budja: That is the great part. Then I will claim to be the doctor.
Spring: But if you claim to be the doctor, it might cause them to unvote you. That seems unproductive.
Budja: Not if you counterclaim me!
Spring: Wow! Good thinking.
Budja: Yes, don't you see. You'll throw me, a mafia roleblocker, away for small personal gain, and there is even a chance a real townie doc counterclaims us both, effectively screwing us over for the entire game.
Spring: High risk, low reward. The town will never expect it. Let's do this.
Scum3: Excellent suggestions all around.

May I also propose I attempt to bus Spring day 2? If Spring looks town for counterclaiming scum in a doctor claim, then I will look extra town for busing such a town-looking player.

I will skate unscathed to victory!

As for the Spring as scum, making a No Kill - I can see how this would work, but

I'm content leaving Spring around for now, I think what we've got on Spring is very inconclusive

.

My view on the Spring as the doc: it could be many things.

1> Spring is the doc, and scum did a no-kill to make it look suspicious. I think this is probably not the way this would have gone. Scum forfeit one kill to make one person who is a town role that is slightly scummier than normal have the chance of possibly being mislynched.

2> Spring is scum, and scum did a no-kill to help strengthen Spring's claim. Again, I don't see why this would be a good idea, they forfeit a kill to possibly save the scumbuddy from a lynch. Again, possible is not good odds for them, and wasting the kill only to have a scumbuddy (possibly) lynched, or at least have heavy suspicion, doesn't make too much sense.

3> Spring is the doc, and successfully protected the kill. This makes sense because Spring is still ripe for a mislynch, possibly, and scum would have still gotten a kill, in addition to the possible mislynch.

4>

Spring is neither the doc or scum, and was protected by the real doc. I find this one unlikely, but it could also explain it. Why wouldn't scum get rid of a doctor if they had the chance?

5> Spring is neither the doc or scum, and scum no-killed. Same as option 1, pretty much.

6> Spring is neither the doc or scum, and the real doc made a successful kill. Odd enough :\

I'm thinking it's number three, though

I can see how one and four would work out

.

unvote, Vote: Spring

Major ping here, you were so damn intent on argueing with sekinj that you didn't even make a single comment on why I thought your claim was bull. After all, you'd been so eagerly asking it.

(all emphasis is added).

Everyone please reread all of these posts in the context of Jebus' claim.

[RedCoyote]

What really sticks out to me is how easily Jebus accepts spring's claim as Doctor while thinking she is still townie... and vice versa really. All because their poem PMs are similar? I would imagine everyone got a poetic role PM.

Jebus, when spring cc'd Budja's claim, what was the first thing you thought? Did you really think that she was a townie trying to protect the "real" doctor? If you thought she was scum, you didn't think so for very long on account of the protection, so sometime between when she claimed and when the day ended you considered her to be town. Just, walk me through your way of thinking, explain to me as best you can why you decided to save spring.

---

Keeping the possibility of two docs in mind, couldn't they cross protect each other? Thus making them both impervious to nightkill. Plus, if we had a watcher he could keep tabs over the docs and see if anyone targets them.

Theoretically we could do some sort of protection daisy chain of all of them, spring protects Jebus, Jebus protects don, and don watches spring.

We would be sacrificing don's investigative use for more of a protective one, but that should keep all of them alive if they're all being truthful.

[RedCoyote]

Goat, I'm going to go ahead and revoke my suspicions of you on account of Jebus' claim... but I have to address something that you said.

If you're looking for the most likely to kill Spolium based on the criteria "Who Spolium was on to", why would you pick me over Ice or yourself?

Regardless of whether it is valid or not, why the heck would I argue that

I

would be the most likely to shoot Spolium?

And, erm, Ice has long since left this game. I don't think Plonky/DO acted like Ice did at all.

In other words, I don't get this comment of yours at all.

---

Like Goat, I'm very weary of the two Doctor argument, even with sanity issues between them. The main reason I don't like to consider two town-sided Doctors is because of the no kill. If this town has two Doctors and possibly a Watcher... it just seems like the town already has some power going for it, so I would imagine that there would have to be some pretty strong scum forces at work for that to happen. With no kill last night, the possibility of two mafia factions or an SK are much slimmer than they were yesterday.

Obviously a mafia-sided Doctor would be a different story.

---

First, when I saw Spring's counterclaim of Budja, I thought that was a townie trying to get the lynch in quickly.

This doesn't sound right to me. I don't know Jebus, is this normal? I mean, I haven't been playing at MS long, but I would almost never accept something like this. It wasn't like spring was exactly crazy for a Budja lynch either. Other than supporting his lynch, she never seemed to do anything especially aggressive toward him.

But I have to admit I do understand the reason why you saved her. Otherwise your save would've been somewhat random and had whatever odds at working.

---

Welcome Rhinox

---

I think if we have two docs, we have to have two scum groups... expecially if you throw a town watcher in there as well...

The odds of two killing parties seem considerably low for me.

Unless...

Question: theoretically, if there were two killing parties and they both shot the same person that was being protected (e.g. spring) would a Doctor protect against both kills?

---

I think, whatever conclusions we come to, don, Jebus, and spring should be off limits for lynching today.

[RedCoyote]

@RC - if it is not beleiveable to have 2 town docs, then one of spring or jeb must be lying. so why should we ignore them for the lynch today if that is the case?

Kind of expanding on what Lynx said.

Because I think if we leave them alive then we pressure the scum into making a serious decision.

If they shoot the real Doctor, then they're in trouble tomorrow, but if they leave them alive, then they risk another no kill. It's a lose/lose situation, and I want to see where it breaks.

Let's say, hypothetically, we lynch the real Doctor. Further, let's say that don is actually a Watcher. We lose two (and likely all) of our power roles in one fell swoop, and there is still very, very, very likely going to be another scum running around (aside from the one who cc'd the Doctor claim).

---

Your argument was that I would kill Spolium to escape his pressure, and my retort is essentially "what pressure?"

I don't want to get into too much WIFOM territory here, but who else, would you argue, showed any sort of outward suspicions of you this game?

You were right to say me, but, again, this is just an argument we'll necessarily go round-and-round on. I would never say that it's valid because of the information that I have and, likewise, you would never claim that you're a valid suspect because of the information you have. If someone else had brought up this point, say Hohum, then this would be more valid.

To put it a bit more simply, you shouldn't expect me to throw myself into the mix of "who would likely want to off Spolium", and, moreover, I'm not specifically arguing that you should either. My point was more for the town in general to look at.

Also, Plonky/DO replaced Magisterrain, not Ice. Ice's replacement is Millar/Hohum.

Fine, but the that's beside the point.

Typically, no. Generally a doctor prevents 1 kill attempt, and multiple kill attempts on that target will result in one protected, and one successful.

Ok, that's what I thought. In that case, I think it's certainly a little harder to argue for multiple killing parties.

---

sekinj, Rhinox, and fhq would be my top 3 choices for a lynch at this point. I'll review each and decide this weekend sometime.

I concur with these choices.

I'd even go so far as to argue that more important than the lynch (especially if we decide to leave the claimed roles alive) is how the town decides on where the powers should be used.

Half of me thinks it's wise to concoct some sort of grand scheme for the night actions, half of me thinks it would best be left to the player's discretion. I feel like, no matter how we configure it, the scum will be in on our plans and will know how to take advantage of the situation.

So, and I know spring won't have and problem with this (lol), it might be best that spring, Jebus, and don stay quiet and all ultimately make their own decisions about who to use their powers on. This way the scum can't interfere and wind up sacrificing one of their own to knock out two power roles (which would defeat the purpose of leaving them all alive today anyhow).

---

I have to say, while I am uncomfortable with the 2 doc theory, the only way for it not to be true in my mind (and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong) is that both of them had chance to communicate outside of the thread to confirm their rhyme schemes. This almost certainly would mean they both are scum.

Part of me wants to say you are just saying that to stir up more confusion into the situation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though fhq.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that possibility (that spring, Jebus, and Budja are all scum) until you did just now. I know both me and Goat have made it clear that we think one of the Doctor claims is scum, and sekinj has said that she thinks they're both Docs.

May I refer you to this middle section of my post 606 with the question of how you don't think my 2nd and 3rd options are valid?

[RedCoyote]

By the way, Spolium and anyone else, has your opinion of DO's play in this game changed any as a result of reading his comments in the 2 games I posted?

I was never huge on DO to begin with, but I do find it somewhat odd that he had proposed lynching spring before Jebus had cc'd her.

I don't know, and I mean that in as literal of a sense as possible. I literally don't know what to make of that coincidence. I've never encountered such a situation. Knowing personally that you're very unlikely to flake on us the way that magi/Ploky/DO has done, I'm more inclined to keep you alive and see whether or not we can find more traditional tells on you.

Since we have the breathing room, it may help to lynch you, but I personally don't take that position.

---

Mod

, the only person that needs replacing is Hohum right? I'd help you if I could, but that slot is still in my town-sided area.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: I was never huge on

the case against

DO to being with ...

[RedCoyote]

Counter question then. How do you discount the 'similarity' of the rhyming sequences of their role PM's?

Well, that could be anything. Without going into too much detail, I think everyone got a poetic PM from the Mod.

I don't think it would be too hard to just say, "Hey, I got a poem with such-and-such rhyme scheme, what about you?" "Yeah I had something similar."

That's not good enough for me.

---

So, to me, it really does seem like we actually have 2 docs. BUt what would the mafia have to have to counter such a powerful town? at least a godfather I'm thinking...

What's the point of a Godfather if there are two Doctors and a Watcher though...? Do you think we have a Cop as well?

to me, two docs is more indicative of a "hitman" type role.

Are those one-shot powers? Because, if not, it seems to defeat the purpose of the Doctor.

---

i am wondering if we should each suggest our "top three" lynch list? i am often criticized for suggesting that one, but it may help us come to a consensus on who is most in doubt.

I have no problem doing this now or anytime really.

1.) fhq
2.) Goat
3.) Rhinox

I will support any of these lynches today.

[RedCoyote]

By no means do I view it as hard evidence, but I'm not going to discount it either.

Well, you view it as evidence enough not to consider there is just one Doctor through, correct?

[RedCoyote]

2. RC: He seems to go from scummy to townie depending on the way he posts. He was going well until he stubbornly refuses to answer my direct question and played down the point I made.

How did I refuse to answer your question? I thought I made it pretty clear, I don't give the rhyming matching as much credence as you do. I feel as though every player got a rhyming role PM and that anyone could've put in their PM and said, "My rhyming words were bore, snore and my scheme was ABCB".

I mean, what's to stop Jebus from simply telling spring, "lol ya that's what I had too >.>" and just completing bsing all the rest?

Moreover, I don't see how the mafia is supposed to counter a fierce town like ours in the instance of two Doctors. Sure, they had a Roleblocker, but what else?

Now the sanity argument is a different thing, because there are so many branches to that that I can't rightfully discount that possibility.

But as far as having two sane Doctors goes, I'm very hesitant to believe it.

[RedCoyote]

Glad I logged on.

Please do not use this against me later, I want to make a much more detailed post but I simply do not have to time right now. I had no idea the deadline would go from "lets play it by ear" to "45 hours left lulz".

I mean, this isn't the most active game, but I certainly don't see it stalling.

I'm going to

vote: fhqwhgads

only to prevent us from going without a lynch, but I want it on the record that I would've much rather have had at least a new replacement before our deadline struck.

(This is the fifth vote, putting fhq at L-1.)

fhq, if the day is still going on tomorrow, I promise to give the game (and you) a better shake, but I honestly have zero time to read and respond in a way I would feel more comfortable with.

[RedCoyote]

Initial reaction

:

There is only one scum group, and I'm not convinced there are two Doctors. I believe don. I'm going to need a good reason not to want to lynch spring today.

I will give a better post later.

[RedCoyote]

The Jebus kill means 2 things:
[...]
- i was probably the one targeted N1

As much as I hate to admit it, I've simply got to believe this to be true.

My knee-jerk reaction to lynch spring has now sunk, and I officially retract it with this post. I have to believe what spring said here to be true. I think both don and spring made valid visits, and I accept both of their explanations. It's unfortunate that don wasn't on Jebus, but, as they say, thems the breaks.

The good news is now I do really find spring to be my number one townie... again.

---

I don't understand why you'd watch Spring over Jebus.

I'd actually rank them at about the same, I don't see a valid priority of one over the other, but I'm willing to hear you out if you have a reason for this Lynx.

---

I'll flesh out a case here, but [Spoilum] is my top scumspect right now. I'm getting mixed reads on Sekinj, but she would be my number 2 choice for lack of a more solid suspect.

I can't wait.

Seriously, I can't. Because my scumdar is pointing at you, Spolium, and sekinj almost by process of elimination. XD

---

Hmm... this is tough. I want to agree with you [about there only being one Doctor].

No, don't! I've changed my mind. Not because of the poetry crap mind you (and I still think that fhq guy gave that way too much stock; what a loon he was ), but because of what spring said in post 759. I just can't honestly explain how Spolium would've been targeted over spring during the first night... unless the mafia No Killed... which just seems so implausible. We're back to the same argument we were having about spring before Jebus claimed.

Every scumhunting, logical bone in my body says that spring was the scum target N1.

...and welcome to the townie-side of my scale!

---

I'd like to know RC's reasoning to lynch me.

B) Jebus is Doctor; spring is scum,

1) Budja admitted to being scum saying this,

Good luck to my scumbuddy. At least I got you the Doc .

perhaps Budja wouldn't have given up so quickly except for the fact that his scumbuddy cc'd him? Perhaps he would've tried harder to explain why he was the Doctor and spring wasn't?
2) spring not having a gaugable opinion throughout most of D2 while she attempts to choose who she would give her "protection" to.
3) Jebus' consistent pressure of spring's identity and for her to state who she protected.

But, as I said, I'm officially retracting that. Today my main suspects lie in Spolium and Goat.

---

Spolium, what do you think of Goat's post 763?
Rhinox, where are you? What do you have for us?
don, does this post give you any more comfort in spring?
spring, explain in a little more detail your problems with Lynx please.
Goat, whenever you get the chance, don't forget about your promise to show us why Spolium is your number one target.

[RedCoyote]

Spolium, I meant, like, are you surprised at all that Goat suspects you more than anyone else in the game? More than me, Rhinox, or sekinj?

It just seems strange to me that you didn't bring it up at all. Are you suspicious of Goat at all? Is he more townie or scummy to you at this point?

What do you mean by "

almost by a process of elimination

"? Emphasis on "almost".

Yeah, almost because I can't say beyond a reasonable doubt that you are the worst three, but the possibilities are certainly whittling away, aren't they?

I know RedCoyote isn't scum, he's just been playing it way too cool. I don't know how anyone could ever suspect him.

Based on the revelation today, I'm going to say that spring is very probably not scum. It would take, at the very least, a scum no kill during the first night for her to even be seriously considered as scum. There was no reason for Jebus to lie about who he protected during N1, and if he protected spring, that means that, in all probability, spring is innocent regardless of what role she is.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I believe don's claim. I think don is the Watcher and his reports have made sense to me thus far. I've been tracking his posts pretty well and everything he's said has led me to pretty much do a 180 from my position on him earlier.

Lynx and fhq/hohum/millar/...Plonky I think? I'd have to check/Ice have both been on my town list for a little while now. I see no real solid cases against them, nor have I really found anything too bad on either of them.

Unlike some others, I didn't find that whole DO "let's lynch a Doctor claim" thing to be scummy. Like I said at the time, seemed more newbish than scummy to me. Rhinox may be a little overly concerned with defense and not enough with offense, but that really isn't enough to put him over the edge. I've played with Rhinox before, and (don't want to talk about it too much because it's an ongoing game) I think I have a better feel for reading Rhinox. Like, you can't really see it here, but I can track the way he was pressuring people yesterday to explaining why DO was scummy other than because of that one comment I mentioned. You can argue it might seem a little too defensive, but to me that shows he's interested in getting other player's opinions.

That leaves you, Goat, and sekinj almost by process of elimination (obviously I can't eliminate but myself from being scum, which is what I mean by almost, but if we're going by my own suspicions then I can eliminate quite a few players).

[RedCoyote]

Could you elaborate on this? I don't see how the initial premise leads to the conclusion.

Well, meaning I believe Jebus protected spring during Night one, I don't see why he would lie about that now that he has flipped Doctor.

Since there was no kill during Night one, we have to come to the reasonable conclusion that three things happened,

Either you, spring, or no one was targeted.

I can throw the third possibility out due to improbability.

And I can assume, reasonably, that spring was more likely to be targeted than you seeing as how the scum would've thought there wouldn't have been two Doctors in this game rather than just one. If spring was targeted, then it's very unlikely she is scum (unless she is an SK or something of that nature).

Is there anything else you want to know?

No, I'm ok right now.

[RedCoyote]

Uh, why are you saying the 6th if you're not going to post this weekend either?

[RedCoyote]

What sekinj said.

And this:

I'll get one good post in before going.

I mean, unless you think one good post is good for a three day period (3rd, 4th, 5th)?

[RedCoyote]

The only thing I wanted to say is that I really wasn't trying to kick dirt at spring or cause a big thing when I asked her if she wasn't going to post over the weekend. I just recall, from this game, her being, like me, traditionally more absent over the weekend.

That plus her saying she was going to make one more meaningful post when she still had a solid three days before she went V/LA made me weary. If I know I'm going on V/LA I try to give the game some sort of increase in activity.

Anyways, that's neither here nor there. I don't know why sekinj couldn't have just dropped this; I see it as a lose/lose situation for her, at least from my point of view. sekinj is risking coming across as bitter at best, and, at worst, scum trying to distract the town by constantly provoking spring.

I don't agree with this modkill business, but until I feel more like sekinj's motivations for dragging this feud out are sincere (regardless as to whether or not I think spring is just as guilty of dragging it out, I'm fairly confident that spring's town), I think she has certainly earned my

vote: sekinj

.

I think this is a good place for D3's first wagon.

---

I still don't see a problem with any of the visits. The only problem I have with Rhinox's calculations is the roles he doesn't touch on... the townies. Put it this way, say the scum, being scared of a Doctor-blocked kill/watched kill, ignored all three players altogether and killed, say, Lynx.

Lynx flips 'nilla.

The town still has two Doctors and a Watcher, and if there's only two mafia left, 3>2... eventually they're going to have to kill one of them to win this game, why not try it while the town is still all confused about who does what and which role is fake?

Frankly I think that the mafia's hand was forced to take the risk in trying to kill a Doctor claim

because

all of our claimed roles are actually telling the truth, not because don is actually faking and took the chance that spring wasn't going to be on Jebus.

So, anyways, that's my stance as of right now. We took a slightly riskier play yesterday and the scum ended up winning the battle. We were already (and I think still are) ahead, so we can stand to lose that one.

I also do not agree that Spolium should be off the table.

[RedCoyote]

@RC - nice way to be sure you aren't offending anyone. Did you notice that I already said something pretty similar on the last page regarding jebus?

If you want to get technical, I'm just reiterating what I said in 790/787 in a new way. It was adjusted to fit Rhinox's comments, but this isn't some sort of new position I am stealing from you.

I've taken a shot or two at spring, no doubt, most of the players in the game have. When you do it it always seems to fester into a big thing. I said yesterday that I didn't care for you doing it, and here you are part of it again.

Because spring is relatively clear in my eyes, I can guarantee you this won't break in your favor barring anything abnormal.

[RedCoyote]

I was just wondering if you noticed that you were holding the same take on it as the person you are voting for as scum...

Well, I'm trying to explain it to you as best I can.

I don't think there is any significant possibility that spring is scum based on circumstances not related to this argument, but I think there is still a significant possibility that you are scum.

I think the argument is distracting, emotion-fueled, and judgment-clouding, hence those who contibute in said argument seem anti-town to me.

Seeing as how I think spring cannot be scum at this point, you are unfortunately given the brunt of my frustration.

I understand we've now come to a similar point of view on the role layout, but you have to understand it's getting harder for me to write these things off.

---

is this a prediction or do you know? I just find this odd...

It was a hypothetical made for the purposes of arguing a point.

---

she protects me, i watch her. scum cannot win this game if she and i are town.

Why do you say this don? If there are at least two scum left, don't you think, theoretically, they could get it down to a lylo of 3 town and 2 scum with at least the possibility of a mislynch?

---

The only thing anti-town I have done is spend way too much time responding to you. However, I do beleive it has made a ripe bed for scumhunting. Look at RC for example. His jump on my wagon I found very supicous.

Back up.

You admit your bickering with spring is anti-town, yet you find me suspicious for calling you out on it? What?

---

My opinion on RC is that he has tied himself to Don Jonson and is low priority for now.

I'd say, rather, I've tied myself to the idea that you and don are telling the truth based on what I've read and witnessed from both of you thus far.

Goatrevolt - Lurkerscum on the way to completion.

I feel similarly, but pinning a Goatscum case down is proving difficult. Like you said, the biggest offense he's guilty of is lurking.

fhqwhgads - banking on Ice

And how.

Lynx The Antithesis - I'm amending this one, prolly town

Why?

---

Spolium, I'm frustrated by your lack of offense. I know you were dispirited with Budja's flip. You saw something in spring earlier, but you left those suspicions at the door on account of some role explanation. Where are you heading next?

As for me, I'm still comfortable with sekinj, Goat, or Spolium being our picks. I've seen nothing that makes Lynx or fhq any less town, my opinion of don and spring is unchanged, and Rhinox is at that tipping point between the two sides, but I'm a little less worried with him than the other three.

[RedCoyote]

I would like to see some sort of analysis from sekinj - her top suspects or something similar - to give the town some insight into what she's doing other than getting entangled in a redundant argument.

Agreed, and, reading ahead, I'm not too thrilled with the way she responded to this request. Obviously I'm going to be more critical of anything thrown against me, but it seems very difficult to pull the OMGUS out of her argument.

I will touch on that a little more in a bit, but I wanted to say that this is a good post.

---

if there are two remaining scum the odds say we will hit one before this scenario occurs, no?

Probably so. I want it on record that I agree that, from here on out, don should be on spring and spring on don.

does anyone have a problem with this? we could roll dice and select a random order, or vote for top three suspects and choose the two with the most votes.

I completely disagree with a random order, but I think I could support some sort of democratic means of putting our list together.

The only problem, if you want to call it a problem, with the list being voted on that we're not effectively doing anything different than what we'd normally be doing at that point (coming to a concensus on who is the most scummy, lynch, repeat).

Moreover, this prospect probably looks a lot better from your point of view than it does to the rest of us, don.

---

After [don's] claim, I didn't see any other cases from you. You vote sekinj asking to talk more, Rhinox under deadline, and FHQ under deadline. This contrasts with your aggressive play earlier day 1 against Spring.

I can understand where you're coming from Lynx, but I have to disagree with this.

My main reason being that don has been given less of an opportunity to be as aggressive as he was earlier in the game. don, for better or for worse, strikes me as somewhat reactionary in his aggression. What I mean is, if don isn't being provoked, his posts seem more relaxed and broad.

That's not necessarily a good or a bad thing, just the vibe I've been getting from him as a player.

Incidentally, did the tussle between don/Spolium not do anything for you?

---

Way too hesitant to make spring angry. Is she a bomb that everyone has to tiptoe around? that is how everyone is treating her, and I'm just not going to do that.

Throughout the game I'd hardly say anyone has been tiptoeing around spring's presence.

Moreover, why is the goal "to make spring angry"? I was giving her the business, sure, but I'm not actively trying to piss her off. Why should I? Why should you? How will that help anyone?

I just wanted to make it clear that I hoped she posted over the weekend if she's going to be gone for that long, and I think you made it out to be more malicious than I had intended.

this vote as well as the justification ("I think this is a good place for D3's first wagon.") seems opportunistic.

Well, sekinj, I'm not sure who I want to lynch, but I do know who I want to pressure.

I've got to admit, I'm not particularly wild for L-3 sekinj. I don't think that, generally, putting someone at L-3 is showing much opportunism, especially given how I've been consistently narrowing down my possibilities.

Plus, I'm not sure why the feud is my fault. Spring could drop it any time as well. I'm going to tell her my opinion just as forcefully as she tells her opinion. I don't see how that puts me in the wrong.

It's not about fault, hon. You're exacerbating the situation. It's about how, look, let me see if I can come up with an analogy.

Let's say two kids hurt each other on the playground. They're both sitting there crying because one scraped her knee and the other bruised her elbow. One of them happens to be your daughter, the other girl happens to be some neighborhood girl you don't really know. When you go running over there, who are you going to comfort first? You may try to help both girls, but you're understandably much more concerned with your daughter's well-being than the other girl.

I feel like this is a similar situation. Y'all both got hurt, but since I feel extremely comfortable that spring has a good relationship to this town based on circumstances beyond our control, I'm going to give her more support than I'm going to give you.

---

Why then was Spring's lurking day 1, which was not sitewide, not enough for you to be suspicious of her?

What gave you the idea it wasn't? Explain.

The one thing that gives me pause is his pressure on me. I dislike his continued assertions that I'm scum, or scummy, but a distinct lack of any real reasons to back that up.

The beauty of being lurking scum is just that. But, then again, I really like the rest of this post too so...

---

I haven't seen many cases from you so far because you've been so involved in this argument with Spring. Your vote for no lynch further solidifies this point. Who sticks out to you today besides RC?

This.

I'm still not prepared to change my vote, it's on the person I most want to see lynched as of now.

I'm having trouble seeing how sekinj can work around the OMGUS in her case against me because, a, she hasn't given any notion beforehand that I was acting particularly scummy before I voted her, and b, she continues to show hostility about the whole situation between her and spring when I'm not the only one calling for

her specifically

to drop it.

---

I don't think it's problem to discuss a list of names... however, hasn't anyone considered that Spring is not going to make it another night? there is no one to protect her. I think the scum will take the chance of don seeing one of them to take out a confirmed townie.

At this point, then, I say it's worth it. Would you rather having the watcher nab one mafia for sure or risk watching someone else at random and getting nothing? This is somewhat of a departure from my previous sentiments, but if only because not everyone is sold on don, I think this will kill two birds with one stone.

---

To everyone who is weary of don's claim

, this is a setup-based point, but I personally would find it very odd for the mafia to have a Roleblocker and the town to have two Doctors without some form of town investigative role. What are your thoughts on that?

...and the game needs more Rhinox!

[RedCoyote]

Also, I can see the OMGUS in my statements against you. but I was just exploring your reasoning more, and seeing what others thought of it as well. I didn't think the vote, or responses warrented a vote change on my part.

I understand the first part of this, but not the second part. Did you mean to say "a vote change on

your

part", referring to me?

---

However, why has he been given any less opportunity to be aggressive than earlier today?

Well, I was riding him pretty hard yesterday and you could say the same of spring during D1.

If we were the biggest don attackers of the game, I think we're both now relatively comfortable with don's claim. Honestly though Lynx, I think we need to stay away from any serious considerations of a don lynch until at least tomorrow.

Like she's trying to be submissive and give in to all of RC's points to perhaps ease the pressure off herself. Be nice and cuddley to your attacker is a good way to avert some of the aggression.

Maybe, but if that's the case then sekinj knows what buttons to press to get an

unvote

.

---

Rhinox, I think your player slot is cursed. Everyone who replaces into it starts lurking!
Goat, were you planning on giving us a sober version of your case on Spolium? I mean, are we supposed to take it seriously? Contrasting with D1, and given that you've left the impression that you think he's pretty apparently scummy, it's weird how little you've had to say to Spolium.

[RedCoyote]

Need some Goat/sekinj/fhq input to get me going.

V/LA until 4/14

.

[RedCoyote]

RC: That was not my case on Spolium.

Well, the longer you keep us in suspense, the more I expect out of it.

---

Sorry, but I'm going to have to ask for a replacement.

Getting married this week and then I'll be away for 2 weeks.

Tell her the honeymoon must wait until we lynch all the mafia! XD

Congrats!

---

Hey everybody, its good to be back. It looks like a lot has happened since I left, so I'll need to read up but then we'll be back in business.

Good to see you again, Ice. You should know that at least me and spring both have kept your player slot largely on the town side mostly on account of your D1 play.

I've realized that while I'm reading it would be really helpful to know what everyone has claimed. Can somebody just give me the quick rundown of any claims made by living players?

As was mentioned, don has claimed Watcher and spring has claimed Doctor. Jebus has flipped Doctor based on the N2 kill.

I currently believe the remaining two claims.

No one was killed on the first night, and, at that point, the only person who had claimed was spring. It's very easy to believe that, given Jebus is a confirmed Doctor who said he protected spring N1, spring is telling the truth.

My faith in don's claim is a little more circumstantial. Until/unless someone says otherwise, I have to believe that don is the town's only investigative role. For me, it's enough proof that this town has to have at least one more power role by default to go with the two Doctors. I don't understand who the Doctors would be aiming to protect should there not be any other power roles.

---

I realized why I haven't posted here in awhile. It's because I'm waiting on sekinj's top suspects she said she'd post. And I know she's posted in another game with me several times since that promise. Are you stalling Sekinj?

Story checks out.

Although sekinj probably wouldn't be my first pick to lynch, I'm keeping a close eye on that deadline.

[RedCoyote]

RC: Who is your "first pick"?

If I were being honest I'd have to say Goat. I know he dismisses it, and I expect him to, but a case on Goat I think would be understandably thinner than a case on someone else. He hasn't been here when it counted. If I asked you, off the top of your head, to tell me what Goat thought of the spring/don/Jebus situation, what would you say? Would you have to go back and hunt for it? What if I asked you to tell me what his opinion was on sekinj now, or, hell, why he's pushing you? How straight of an answer do you think you could give without having to look back? Goat, I think, is arguably suspicious in that way, that his voice is meek on issues of importance, and louder on issues that mean less. His play, I think, has considerably changed for the worse. I think there are connections that can be made directly to Budja, perhaps not as strong as you or don have, but I could point things out.

That being said, I do and must concede that a large part of my suspicions of Goat comes from his absence, for better or for worse. We both realize this, but I wouldn't say he's worked on fixing that too much. Therein lies the problem, how strong can suspicions be on someone if you don't know whether or not they're just having less time to play the game than they had previously? Nevertheless, although his few contributions are warmly received by me, I can't shake the feeling that Goat is more interested in placating the town then he actually is helping it.

I wouldn't say sekinj is too far behind, nor would I say you are out of the running (pending what Goat may or may not have to say about you). I've made it clear I will not stand in the way of what I think is an acceptable sekinj lynch today, but the way we came to a consensus on sekinj may have been a little awkward.

---

It seems that some wires got crossed in what should have been an obvious and nigh unbeatable circle of town actions - leave only one doctor able to be killed, and have a watcher on that player to force scum to sacrifice a member if they wanted to kill it.

This was discussed at some length toward the end of D2, slightly before the fhq rush lynch. I will find you some specific posts as to what don is referring to if you'd like, but know that the general debate was between this plan, as you said, and taking a little more of a risk and leaving the supposed power roles to determine their own actions.

Although don followed the plan I suggested, the majority of us (including me) chose it would be best not to plan out the night actions beforehand mostly due to the fear that Jebus/don/spring could be fake and end up taking advantage of whatever "hole" there would be in the circle.

If I thought then what I think now (that don/spring/Jebus were/are all real), I would much rather have went for calling out the actions beforehand.

I am still in the process of reading through the thread, but it seems like we should almost definitely be in the business of lynching one of these two today.

Under no circumstances short of an admission of guilt would I support this. I understand why you would think this, but I think it's based off somewhat spotty information about what happened since you left.

---

And the fact that spring CCed a mafia fakeclaim... Anyone starting to think 2 scumteams of 2 yet?

Not completely ruling that out but not too concerned about it (mostly due to the first night NK and the second night only one kill).

All that being the case, then I can't see any way spring wasn't given a town doc role PM, sanity concerns aside.

Agreed. As Ice says later, there is no reason for don and spring not to be seeing each other every night from now on.

---

I don't see any reasons why the deadline should be extended.

Frankly I agree with this as well. I don't see any reason that spring will change her mind, and the people who have votes that matter have more than enough time to make their decision.

I think the only reason I would support a deadline extension is if Goat had good reason for choosing Spolium over sekinj.

[RedCoyote]

As Lynx said, we need to know who Plonky investigated, the Mod should've given you that information. We also need to know why it was you chose Lynx.

What I tried to do was break up what sekinj said this game into different sections. Some quotes are posted twice because they deal with multiple issues (e.g. list of suspects/specific person), and some quotes are split up (e.g. first half in one section, second half in another).

Each section is chronological, and they all have reference post numbers attached to them. This is every post that I consider of important content, I left out many posts addressed to spring specifically that weren't related to what sekinj thought of spring's role. Additionally, some players weren't given a section, notably Goat and fhq (actual fhq not Ice fhq, although Ice isn't in here either), because I don't feel she talked about them enough to warrant their own section.

Officer sekinj?

Suspects

my top suspects:
Jebus
DO
fhq

Sekinj

, who do you see as a more profitable deadline lynch: FHQ or Jebus?

jebus. I think he is much scummier than fhq.

I honestly don't see enough difference to choose. I also don't like how you have narrowed our options to just fhq and rhin. I think goatrevolt, spoilum and [Lynx] have said just as many questionable things. PLUS - hohum is absent! what if he is the scum and is just lurking to victory.

ok. for now I beleive don and spring, but I think the scum MUST have some pretty powerful roles. I also beleive Lynx is town.

that leaves:

Goat

- would have to have been bussing budja from very early on. His interaction with budja and suspicion seem genuine.

Ice

- good day 1 play, no good read on replacements.

RC

- good play and reasoned responses throughout each day

Rhinox

- the biggest thing is the weird play by DO

Spolium

- wishy washy about budja, jumped off saying fake claim was unlikely, then jumped on again quickly when spring countered, gave excuse of "lesson learned"

I know this isn't huge or anything and some of you are goign to be dissapointed, but I went back and looked at each of these players in isolation and this is my verdict.

Vote: Spolium

spring

town. I believe your claim that you are the doc, wholeheartedly.

Oh so for you getting me to play was a priority?

If there is someone I know is town, then YES, they are the person I want to play the most, because I know our alignments are the same.

spring now seems much more scummy, so of the two I trust her less at this point, given all the claims.

for now I beleive don and spring

don

this certainly doesn't help [don's] towniness in my eyes.

for now I beleive don and spring

Spolium

lynching spoilum would clear up one tiny possiblity out of many... not worth it at all for that reason.

@sl - I don't think anything in particular about it. It indicates that you generally think [Spolium] is townish, which I would agree with.

I think goatrevolt, spoilum and [Lynx] have said just as many questionable things.

I don't think spoilum has done anything scummy enough to be voted on based on the assumption that [spring] MIGHT be a quack doc.

Spolium

- wishy washy about budja, jumped off saying fake claim was unlikely, then jumped on again quickly when spring countered, gave excuse of "lesson learned"

[...]

Vote: Spolium

Rhinox/DO

my top suspects:
Jebus
DO
fhq

Does anyone have anything against DO/Rhinox except DO wanting to lynch spring

That move just strikes me as a replacement wanting to stir up trouble or being bored, or not wanting to read the whole game, ectetera. Does one scumtell a scum make? and to throw a little wifom on the fire - why would scum be that stupid?

@rhinox - I'm saying ppl only have 1 thing against you and that's one stupid thing DO did. I don't think one stupid thing by a repalcement who was obviously not interested in playing the game should make you scum.

RC

Look at RC for example. His jump on my wagon I found very supicous.

VOTE: as well as the justification ("I think this is a good place for D3's first wagon.") seems opportunistic.

[...]

I'm curious as to why RC has dropped off everyone's scum list when he was pretty high on some ppl's Days 1 and 2?

RC

- good play and reasoned responses throughout each day

Lynx

I think goatrevolt, spoilum and [Lynx] have said just as many questionable things.

I also completely disagree with your Lynx thing. he is town.

[Lynx] just seems very town to me. good scumhunting, not overly agressive.

I also beleive Lynx is town.

D2 - No Lynch

Maybe this is just bad scumhunting on my part, but I can't see anything sufficiently scummy enough to lynch someone over. I think gaining info tongiht is our best option.

I just dont' like this situation and think a no lynch is our best option. I think without more information we will make a mistake.

Misc

maybe we shoudl just mass claim

I think if we have two docs, we have to have two scum groups... expecially if you throw a town watcher in there as well...

So, to me, it really does seem like we actually have 2 docs. BUt what would the mafia have to have to counter such a powerful town? at least a godfather I'm thinking...

While doing this I noticed some awkward shifts on Rhinox/DO and Spolium, but in general she seems to be pretty straight. Her bringing up the GF and suggesting a No Lynch to get more information play in her favor, along with the emphasis on Lynx as town all day today, what doesn't play in her favor, however, is her bringing up a mass claim. She retracted that later, but it seems really awkward that a Cop would want to mass claim, especially with her Doctor(s) out already.

All in all, I have an inkling who it was that Plonky investigated... there is actually only one person I would accept as valid investigation for N1, but I will wait for sekinj to tell me who it was before giving out this information. The fact that she didn't bother to bring this up with the claim is suspicious in and of itself though. I will tentatively accept her claim pending anyone catching something contradictory, but, at the moment, the veracity of the claim is not on par with spring or even don.

Before sekinj's claim:
[Town]-spring--don--Lynx----Rhinox-----Ice9[∙]-Spolium--sekinj--Goat---------[Scum]

After sekinj's claim:
[Town]-spring--don--Lynx----Rhinox----sekinj-Ice9[∙]---Spolium---Goat--------[Scum]

[RedCoyote]

I will not be apart of any lynch involving any of the claimed roles, saying that right now. I will not have any part in lynching don, sekinj, or spring. I'll give a better post later but I was just checking this thread because I'm on the Internet right now.

I'm going to

vote: Goatrevolt

to hopefully get him in here to discuss what's going on, to get him to give his damn opinion before everyone else has, for a change and I will leave it at that.

[RedCoyote]

though it is highly believable that plonky failed to pick a target night 1, i find it unbelievable that sekinj would fail to state this with her initial investigation results. results are results and this claim seems like a last minute scum claim.

I agree with don here, but not as strongly as he does.

I do think sekinj's claim sounds sketchy and I do think Plonky probably didn't submit anything and I do find it hard to believe sekinj wouldn't inquire about N1 investigations when she got a Cop role PM after replacing in D2.

As I said earlier, however, I don't think that alone is good enough to lynch her, not when we have other possibilities.

---

@don - Whoa there. What exactly makes you think I'm suggesting a no-lynch?

I would consider pushing for it if I were you.

---

3) If sekinj is most likely scum, then don and spring watch/protect each other and sekinj investigates whoever.

I think this is the best course of action and I think both spring and don will agree with me (after all, it's ultimately up to them).

Theres discussion to be had now, and one of those 3 may end up being lynched yet.

I still think this is a frivolous idea that will get us into more trouble than we need to be in. I cannot see myself supporting this at all; I'd rather no lynch than lynch any of the claimed roles.

---

I don't see hwo it is a big deal that I didn't include a null investigate in my original claim post.

The problem is why you wouldn't think, if you were actually Cop, to include that information automatically. Traditionally when someone makes a big claim like that, they want to give as much information as possible. When people start having to ask you, that makes it harder to believe you're being upfront and honest about everything.

i obv think option 1 is our best bet.

You forget that don, to us, is at least equal to you (and, in my opinion but certainly not Ice's, even easier to believe) in importance. don could die tomorrow should we leave him unprotected. If there is a Godfather, your investigations could be useless whereas don will catch any mafia type who tries to visit spring. Moreover, option 1 will destroy any future shield this town has (e.g. don and spring sticking together) for power roles at the end game.

EBWOP: Option 1 gives us a dead doc, but a piece of information from both don and myself.

You really don't believe don is a Watcher do you? Am I the only one who does?

---

Actually, now that I think about it, if you add in at the end of option 1 that sekinj investigates don, then thats a pretty tight loop - sekinj can't be killed, and would learn weather or not don is scum. That way if spring dies, we would know whether or not he was giving us honest watch results.

No good because don is unprotected.

---

But if you are right and spring is not the auto lynch, wouldn't scum jsut lynch don in this scenario and spoil it all?

Right, exactly.

You'll have to excuse me for repeating infomation that someone else has already said. I tend to read posts chronologically and immediately comment rather than read them all at once.

@RC - if goat isn't reading the thread, your pressure vote isn't doing any good. maybe you are stalling...

Don't start using ellipses with me, missy.

Goat may or may not be reading this thread but if the decision is between Goat and Spolium then I would be happier with Goat.

Although I reference my frustration with his absence, you do realize I think Goat is the scummiest player currently in this game, right?

---

God, do not tell me Lynx is claiming too...

Okay, re-thinking the game. I won't do the same analysis of Lynx that I did of sekinj until tomorrow (if he's still with us).

I think both Spring and Don should randomize their abilities 50/50. For example, Spring randomly chooses either me or Don to protect. Don does the same. This way scum have to take a 50% risk of either getting their kill blocked or watched. All the while I clear another town. Yes, theres a risk and good chance one of us may die, but then scum would have to take a huge chance to take one of us down.

No, no, no. We'll run into the same wall we've been going through with sekinj.

We're sticking with the plan this time. I think the most important thing we do tonight is have spring and don on each other. With Lynx's cc, the mafia would be scared to hit sekinj or Lynx (because, if one of them is mafia, it would make it a hard one to sell tomorrow).

There's always the possibility that, now, the Cop's sanities (specifically sekinj) should be looked into.

But the

most

important thing, in my mind, is the don/spring togetherness. In fact, I would say Lynx's cc makes it even easier to support keeping don and spring on each other, because, as I said, if one of the Cop's are fake they'll probably be scared to hit the other one.

...and don't even get me started with the idea that both Cops could be fake

---

Rhinox's circle plan should be followed.

Spring -> sek -> don -> Spring

My vote is definitely for Spring <-> don and sek and Lynx go for an unclaimed.

I'm sure don will agree with me, and I'm pretty sure spring will as well.

---

oh no! I really am the cop though! and I invesitaged Lynx!!

Oh, that changes everything! Now I believe you 100%! 110%!! XD

---

I mention this because Rhinox is one of my top two suspects outside of the claimed group, based almost entirely on likelihood of being Budja's scumbuddy.

Although I can see this I'm more inclined to think Spolium is guilty of it than Rhinox.

There are also a lot of paired roles going on here - dead doc and claimed doc, two claimed cops. Could be a pattern, could just be coincidental fake claim(s).

Hinting at an unclaimed Watcher, Ice?

I am virtually certain that Lynx is town - either sek is truthfully a cop, in which case there's an innocent investigation on him, or sek is lying, in which case Lynx is a real cop counterclaiming.

This is pretty narrow. Like I said, both claims could easily be fake, and, as you mentioned pairs, sanities could still be an important factor.

For all we know spring could still be a Quack protecting scumSpolium.

So Spring should certainly be protecting Lynx.

Absolutely not.

---

maybe the mod put in tons of roles so we would all counter claim and kill each other off. maybe that is how the town is balanced with the scum.

I think this is a definite possibility.

---

A mass claim right now will just add to the confusion. I think we need to have a lynch and a night to resolve whats wrong with the current claims before we think about massclaiming.

Agreed. The only person that should be claiming right now is today's lynch candidate.

---

Why should [sekinj] be spared today?

Why should you?

I mean, if I thought there was just one Cop for sure, I would take you over sekinj any day of the week, but that's not what's at issue here. You have to remember that your towniness is supported primarily by two things, one, that most of us consider you town based on our own reads, and two, sekinj's possible investigation (which you yourself would have to null because you don't believe her).

I have to tell you Lynx, you're moving closer to scum on my own personal list. I'd definitely call Rhinox town before you now.

This could of course change depending on the night kill/investigations.

---

If there really are 2 docs, possibly with sanity issues, there could very well be 2 cops with sanity issues, and the mod is screwing with us.

I'd go as far as to say this is the most probable situation at the moment. My reasoning is based on the no kill N1, Jebus' protection of spring, and spring's protection of Spolium both nights.

With two Cops out now, I think the best route would be to

unvote

and

vote: Spolium

.

With two Docs and two Cops, we need to take action about the sanities issue.

As far as I'm concerned, the primary goal is keeping don and spring on each other, and the secondary goal is tackling how the potential sanities breakdown. If Spolium is scum, then sanity becomes and even greater possibility; if Spolium is town, well, we'll cross that bridge when/if we come to it. Additionally, if don ends up dying (along with another person), sanities would almost certainly be a factor.

This is all becoming too convoluted... my head hurts

No joke, just watch Spolium claim Watcher/Cop/Doc now. XD

---

Were it possible to defend myself from a process of elimination, I guess I'd be doing it now.

If this isn't an admission to being mafia, then explain this comment please.

To me this sounds like, "I can't defend myself, not going to bother... I'm scum."

If you're town, you have a responsibility to fight back. There is a prime opportunity in Goat still, if you ask me, or you could pick up on a No Lynch argument too.

That said, I think it's time for Spolium to claim given the fact that the Mod has shown no signs of extending the deadline.

[RedCoyote]

I love this guys, I absolutely love this. Keep it up. I will go to the mat with Lynx, Spolium, or sekinj any day of the week.

(I mean, I'd prefer sekinj, but you know )

No, seriously, this is good. Now I want spring back, she's missing out on all the fun. I can't wait to hear what Ice has in store for me.

---

Of all the players currently voting me to L-1, sekinj is the only one who has actually offered something resembling a case.

Don't give me that "poor Spolium" routine. You've seen this wagon coming from a mile away, and what have you done to convince us otherwise?

I told you earlier when you were calling out spring that I had hoped to see more from you. I like you interrogating people Spolium, even if it's me.

So, yeah, here's my situation. I think I am within reason to eliminate Lynx, sekinj, don, spring, and myself from lynching. Who does that leave? Rhinox with an innocent report, Ice, who I've never had any particular problems with, and Goat.

I've been voting Goat; I've been pressuring Goat... but he's not here, and no one else has supported me or tried to back me up in anyway, although I can't, for the life of me, understand why it is he's been given such a pass. You and sekinj, shockingly, have completely let Goat fall to the wayside.

Who is the more realistic lynch Spolium, you or Goat?

If my alternative lynch isn't supported, and the person being voted isn't going to get aggressive (although jumping on me would probably be a good start XD) and start talking about who should be lynched, I think I'm in the right to vote you.

It's apparent that you had to re-think between these excerpts, but how exactly does the second cop claim warrant the switch from Goat to me? How did you get from "Goat is the scummiest player" to "let's vote Spolium to clear up sanities"?

I have a bad habit of answering your questions with questions, but bare with me for a second.

If there are indeed two Cops and two Doctors, and there are very likely two Doctors, you don't think sanity is necessarily a priority discussion to be had?

The way I figure it, it's just further justification for lynching you. If we know sanities are a factor (and you coming up as scum would help that, don being killed would nearly prove it) then we have more reason to believe our Cops. If we can suspect one of the Cops is insane, we then know sekinj would be that insane Cop, giving us another mafia in Rhinox.

---

I have already addressed this with don. Did you miss those answers?

Yeah, like I told you, I read posts chronologically. I read the answer "that the Mod told you right away" after I typed that.

But that doesn't change the validity of the issue in you not telling us immediately that Plonky didn't visit anyone N1.

You say you "don't see how it's a big deal" to miss investigations? I completely disagree.

you seem to be selectively reading.

You'll have to excuse me for repeating infomation that someone else has already said. I tend to read posts chronologically and immediately comment rather than read them all at once.

Look who's talking

how in the world did you jump to the conclusion that I don't believe don.

Because the plan you support leaves him vulnerable. I know you want to stay alive at night, all players do, but you should understand that it's more important to have the Watcher/Doctor alive than a Cop.

Especially

when there's another Cop claim out.

if you think he is the scummiest player, then give that reason when you vote him rather than crap about trying to make him stop lurking.

I did, hon!

After sekinj's claim:
[Town]-spring--don--Lynx----Rhinox----sekinj-Ice9[∙]---Spolium---Goat--------[Scum]

If you're going to tell me you haven't noticed my constant badgering of Goat, basically since mid-Day 2 (one could even argue since D1, but I won't), then I'm going to flip.

more stalling? I don't see why we need to wait. let's discuss now while more of us are alive!!

Why? I won't be voting either of you today.

(Note: this statement is entirely dependent on Spolium/Goat's potential claims)

Let's just skip all that and mass claim!

If

, and that's still a very big if, Spolium

and

Goat happen to claim power roles, then a mass claim may make more sense.

As it stands, a majority of the players are still unclaimed, and I think it is in the town's interests to keep it that way for the foreseeable future.

I

do not

endorse a mass claim, and I think we're getting way too far ahead of ourselves with a deadline a couple of days away. Spolium needs to make a move, and this town need to press him to do so. I understand unwillingness to claim, but he needs to understand this town's concerns with getting the lynch right as well.

there very well may not be any vanilla townies, and scum do not want to be a target by saying that

Excuse me? Do I need to cut fhq down from the noose we put around his neck?

How could you miss that, Officer sekinj?

spolium is saying that it's impossible to defend against a process of elimination vote, and RC is saying the pat townie thing "you have to fight if you're town" bull bull bull.

Poppycock. Spolium is feeding us excuses and self-pity. He's been sitting on the sidelines for the better half of this game if you ask me. I'd say Rhinox, hell, I'd even say Ice has done more to get this town talking and thinking this game.

I don't want to be misunderstood like I'm saying Spolium is a bad player/townie or anything like that. Quite the contrary really, I enjoy reading Spolium's posts when he has something on his mind. I'm saying that, not unlike Goat, Spolium hasn't really done much lately.

It is unfortunate that circumstances beyond his control helped put him in this position, but I wouldn't say he's fought very hard to keep himself appearing valuable to this town.

Moreover, he's been aware of this fact, at least by posts from me, Goat, and spring.

---

Is there any point to me countering when there has been relatively no suspcion on me all game? When the claimed cop has an innocent read on me? Why would I possibly throw that all out the window as scum to take out the cop when we're already down a member?

Like sekinj said, and I agree with, there is a strong possibility that the setup is balanced through multiple power roles, right? You agree with this possibility? Well, if that's the case, wouldn't it make sense, for, like sekinj said, mafia to claim a power role? Why not two? I mean, you win either way as a Cop.

If sekinj comes up mafia, then you "have" to be the real Cop. If sekinj comes up Cop, then, hey, there's two Doctors! You're clear!

If you, as mafia, chose not to cc sekinj and just claim blue, sure, you aren't being suspected

today

, sure, you weren't suspected

yesterday

, but what about

tomorrow

? You're far from untouchable Lynx. Hypothetically, let's say tomorrow don takes a risk (please don't, don) and watched, I don't know, Ice? Ice dies. He says he saw Lynx visit Ice.

By claiming Cop, at least you've bought yourself some leeway, a blue claim would've gotten you none at all.

I wouldn't even argue that claiming Cop as mafia is necessarily more bold, given all the claims that have came out so far. I agree with sekinj on that, the mafia may very well be feeling this situation out.

Keep in mind that doesn't mean I think mass claiming is a good idea. Why do you support it? Other than the fact that you've already claimed I mean.

And I don't understand why you've been so adament about Don. Your unwavering belief in his claim is baffling me. The plan is all based around both of them telling the truth which is hard to swallow for me still.

don kept spring alive didn't he? don also called two no visits correctly in a game with possibly

four

(and very possibly even more) town roles visiting various people. You're going to call that luck? If don is mafia, then don is one hell of a ballsy mafia player.

And are you really still suggesting spring is scum? Really, Lynx?

Moreover, your plan of lynching sekinj today is completely based on you telling the truth, is it not? Actually Lynx, I want to press you harder. I think you have the burden of proof here, not us. There are very likely two Doctors, why is it, in your mind, more likely that there is only one Cop than there is two? I will grant you that both of us had a hard time accepting Jebus and spring as Doctors yesterday, but now that that's basically been proven the case, how come, all of a sudden, people warming to the idea of two Cops is "beyond you"?

[RedCoyote]

Where are you getting this from? I'm pointing out that all but one case on me relies heavily on circumstantial evidence, which gives everyone a free pass to hop on without the risk of inaccurately declaring my play to be scummy. I'm a safe bet for scum, so I find my wagon suspicious as hell. Where are you getting this from? I'm pointing out that all but one case on me relies heavily on circumstantial evidence, which gives everyone a free pass to hop on without the risk of inaccurately declaring my play to be scummy. I'm a safe bet for scum, so I find my wagon suspicious as hell.

And how did it get to be this way? How come the wagon didn't get moved to Ice, me, or Goat? We're all other choices that fit circumstantially. Are all of us scum?

As I said before, I can't defend myself effectively from a process of elimination.

You say this as though you've had no say on the way this game has moved.

Further to this, I can't really justify pushing a case on Goat when he's not here to defend himself, and I'm certainly not going to push a case just to save my own skin.

And that's your perogative, but don't then turn around and jump on me as if I've been tunneling you through the evils of "process of elimination". I made it clear pretty early on today that I wasn't interested in lynching any claimed power roles (notwithstanding very, very early suspicions of spring that were based on knee-jerk reactions I had). I made it clear my suspects today were you, sekinj, and Goat. I contend that the only two parties that were ever considered by more than one player today have been, well, you and sekinj. You've had just as much to say about that as anyone else.

I know that my flip isn't going to reveal squat about Spring, particularly if she's a quack doc who doesn't kill town.

If you are scum I think it will increase the odds that she could be. With two Doctors and two Cop claims, differing sanities

are

more plausible, right?

How would we know that sekinj is the insane cop in those circumstances?

Well, we could speculate a number of scenarios. What's to say sekinj is even a Cop at all?

Eventually some sort of action must be taken Spolium.

Interesting turn of phrase. Do you study martial arts at all?

Oh, no, hehe. I was just in a bit of a fun loving mood on Friday I suppose.

---

I DID NOT say that plonky not sending in a vote was "not a big deal" I'm furious at plonky for that. that was stupid and show a lack of regard for all the other players and the game. i SAID that it wasnt' a big deal that I didn't spout everything I knew in one post, but rather used two posts, one right after the other. why is that a big deal??

Because it makes it seem as though you could care less about your results and their significance. It makes you seem, consequently, less like a Cop.

1) someone has to be vulnerable.
2) if don/spring just watch/protect each other, the scum will just pick off the cop and the town will know NOTHING the next day. (this of course changed with point number 3).
3) I created those scenarios BEFORE lynx claimed

1) It should be you, without argument.
2) Assuming you are Cop, and assuming that Lynx isn't Cop, and assuming that the power roles don't do anything sneaky... that's a lot of assumptions you're making just for the sake of protection.
3) Then you should retract any plans you have created/supported based on the new information

because when you actually voted you stated it was ONLY to pressure him.

It's fine that you don't pay attention to my suspects, but don't, then, come complain to me because I'm not making it clear enough for you each and every post. If you weren't aware that I've already had problems with Goat, then that's on you.

you are asking why we should discuss??? in case you didn't know scum kill townies and power roles at night. someone with town alignment will die tonight. I would rather discuss NOW whiel that person is still alive...

Supporting a mass claim because "we need to discuss it" is extremely counter-productive. If that's the case why not just mass claim D1? That way everyone can discuss before someone dies.

I mean, why do you need to know what Rhinox claims in order to lynch Spolium? It doesn't make sense to me, it just gives the mafia a better picture of the setup, or, if Rhinox is mafia, it allows for more misinformation to seep in and confuse us/our night actions.

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RC, a two docs, two cops and a watcher is just plain ridiculous for a mini regardless of sanity. Maybe it's just me but I haven't seen a mini close to this. Thats why I think somebody's lying.

I think it's very possible that you or sekinj is lying, I'm just saying it's not worth the risk trying to prove that fact at this stage in the game.

I meant to say in my last post that no cop in his right mind would investigate one of those poweroles and risk losing an investigation over clearing a townie.

Well, I'd like to think that with at least two Cops and two Doctors, I may very well have been a target during N1. I think you understand my point though.

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a) It is a mistake to expect any kind of information to be generated from night actions: scum have perfect information on that score and manipulations are easy.

b) The only way to play the day game is to judge gameplays only, and this starting now or we will get entangled into endless speculations.

c) None of the proposed night action plans work because we don't know the sanities of the claimed power. Not expanding on this but if I can see holes through it, so can scum.

d) Mass claiming is stupid: scum will lie, town will not. Under the present circumstances in which there is no deductive advantages to be gained from claims because of the screwy setup, massclaiming is simply akin to handing scum all the cards with no return benefit.

a) Don't agree with this, how do scum have perfect information on sanities?

b) Partially agree

c) Tough to accept this; we accepted this premise yesterday and it ended up hurting the town.

d) Agree 100%

@Red Coyote

, why did you feel the need to notify Ice9 upon his replacement back that you and I both considered his slot to be town?

Because he asked for help to catch him up to speed and I only knew our stances toward Ice (sekinj's were just written if I recall and the rest of the players hadn't updated in a while).

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RC: how does lynching spolium clear up sanity issues? i will look in the wiki, but i don't see how spolium's alignment would clear that up. if we lynch someone, it should be because we find them scummiest. i don't think we have enough info to determine sanities at this point.

If I said "clear up" than I misspoke, it would only help to clear it up. If Spolium is scum that means that spring has never used her powers on a town member, meaning we she is still quite possibly a Quack. If you end up dying tomorrow, we can virtually guarantee that to be the case.

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RC: I can't really address your suspicion on me because it's entirely based upon my absence. I understand that doesn't make me look pro-town in any sense, but I also don't see how that paints me as scum. Do you have anything from my play that leads you to believe I'm scum, or is it just my sparse posting as of late?

Well, you've managed to lurk your way past most every important role claim in this game. Your play is inconsistent, as we've documented time and again. You've ignored questions and asked questions without showing much of an interest in following up with them. As I've noted before, I think a case can be made for you attempting to covertly derail a Budja lynch by means of turning the discussion toward less important matters.

I'm sorry if you're having reality issues, but if you want my opinion, I'm still only content with your or Spolium's lynching today, and I feel as though Spolium has more going for him as a townie than you do.

I highly doubt all 5 of those roles are telling the truth. I would not put it past 1 or two of them to be scum. Here's a novel idea. Let's lynch based on behavior analysis, not role claims. Who feels like scum, and who feels like town, regardless of their alleged role claims or not. Seriously.

I don't agree with this. This seems like an unneccessarily risky thing to do at this point in time. The claimed roles all kind of protect one another by virtue of just being alive tonight.

It's kind of strange how you bring this up and then basically call all the role claims townish or "Not lynch priorities" (Well, except for sekinj).

The one nagging thing at my mind is that I believe he is suspicious of Sekinj, yet a recent post of his was written in more of a light tone, which doesn't express true suspicion. I'll look into that more.

If we lynch sekinj, and she's town, then Lynx could die without anything new. If, as spring has been able to point out through her questions of the Mod, sanities aren't revealed upon death, we get literally nothing usable from either Cop going into D4.

If we leave sekinj alive, I feel very strongly that Lynx will also be left alive.

But I'm having trouble understanding why you'd be more comfortable on the sekinj wagon than the Spolium wagon... just because you think that my vote for Spolium is less sincere?

I'm willing to claim if necessary. I don't see any reason not to go through with a mass claim at this point.

To protect the integrity of what remaining secrecy we have left? The only thing the town has on the mafia inherently is their specific role, why should anyone be in a rush to reveal it?

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The non response to my card flip question is intentional, yes?

I'm assuming the worst.

1) [sekinj's] claim changes nothing, and it should not.

Why? Why risk killing a Cop when Lynx has counter-claimed her? If we don't lynch Lynx

or

sekinj, then we'll likely have one to work with tomorrow.

My predication are:

If sekinj flips scum: Goat is the next lynch.

If sekinj flips town, one if not both of RC and Don is scum.

Lining up lynches is uncalled for and unnecessary.

The former is seemingly senseless, other than to argue that Goat was making the case that sekinj is scum but just

slightly

less than Spolium.

The latter is dismissive of the reasons I've stated as to why don is a much more townie player in this game than he has been given credit for, it absolves multiple players, and it ignores sanities.

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I could also lynch Red Coyote, now that I think about it. He and Spolium are the only ones who I'm willing to go for.

You sure are intent on getting the mass claim, aren't you? One way or the other.

[RedCoyote]

You say this as though anything I could've said would've made a difference to how you feel about other players.

Yeah, it could've. Remember when I asked you to be more aggressive?

Why are you trying to play it down, if you think that your process for finding me to be the best lynch is valid?

Because you're painting me as though I'm unfairly out to get you, which isn't the case.

Speculate? No, RC, you said: "

If we can suspect one of the Cops is insane,

we then know sekinj would be that insane Cop

, giving us another mafia in Rhinox

".

Wait, you're right, the Cops can't be sane/insane. I was thinking sekinj would have to be insane because Lynx's positive on Jebus, but then the report on Lynx wouldn't fit.

Hmm. So, Spolium, do you think both Cops/Doctors are sane, or is someone lying?

---

Then what?
If Lynx dies tonight, what does that make of sekinj?
If sekinj dies tonight, how does that affect lynx alignment?

Like I said in my last post, I don't agree that all night actions are useless in this game. The mafia don't know who/if Lynx/sekinj will visit, and I, for one, want that information in any decision we make tomorrow.

Waiting after the scum move is never a good idea, and this especially in the current situation as this is not a 'only one of them can be telling the truth' situation - if one of them get NK'd, it would say nothing of the other's alignment.

And? Killing sekinj won't either. If sekinj is a Cop, and her sanity isn't revealed (which we can expect), we still won't know anything about her Lynx report.

Moreover, I know this isn't an either or situation, which is precisely why I don't think sekinj "has to be mafia" because Lynx sounds more like a Cop.

I'm willing to put blind faith in your defence of Don for now, but no much longer.

How is it blind faith? It's a reasonable conclusion than any of us could make that a one-member-down scumteam would've taken a pretty big risk to make the claim he did.

Here I'll note that lynching Spolium to presumably uncover my sanity is totally dumb and stupid and is absolutely not a valid reason.

In addition to the recent OMGUS, we know that Spolium's play has changed since Budja's death.

Let's not forget these little gems,

When [Budja's] trying to provoke discussion, it's impossible to determine exactly what sort of discussion is going to arise (particularly so in a game where everyone is second-guessing themselves/others, and scum are waiting to pounce on any careless townie).

My argument was that in my experience Budja has played like this as town

Spolium also took point in that red herring of a "spring defense" argument, which lasted entirely too long.

So I do think Spolium's lynching can be justified outside of any sort of sanity argument, but, if Spolium comes up scum, then it undeniably puts spring's sanity back into question. This wouldn't be as necessary if we didn't have two Doctors/Cops, but now that we do I think this should be our primary concern. spring is a literal walking timebomb if she's a Quack, and I, for one, see it as an increasingly probable role given the way this setup is breaking down.

That increasingly probability, as you might imagine, is only fueling my interest in a Spolium lynch.

[RedCoyote]

Spolium got a bullet right through the eyes
And the doctor spring sang her last lullaby

Very dramatic! I love the poetry.

Big thanks to the Mod and to everyone else for a fun game!
---

I was basically don's buddy after D2. I can guarantee you that if I didn't track don N1 I'm almost positive I would've kept my vote on him and pushed him the rest of the day.

See, I got the results that said don watched me like this,

As nightfall comes, you take to the road
you're looking for johnson, to see where he goes
At a safe distance, you use your binoculars
The scene that followed is kind of recockulous
A chill up your spine, when you look through the glass
Cause you see don with binoculars, looking right back

don_johnson targeted you tonight

My first thoughts were that I caught a scum in don and I was protected by spring. I thought that was pretty reasonable given that spring thought I was relatively townie at the time, and, given the Budja flip, she'd protect me.

I

knew

I had to have been shot at and saved and I was going to make don pay for it. I unleashed both barrels on him almost immediately after D2 started, but once don claimed Watcher I felt so stupid for missing that possibility that I felt obliged to defend don to the best of my abilities the rest of the game. A scum-sided Watcher never really crossed my mind. Back over at EM there is no such thing as a mafia-sided Tracker/Watcher/Cop, so I'm already predisposed to giving power roles much more credit, especially if I know they are said power role based on my own investigations.

I got fhq wrong for sure at the end of that day, but Goat was definitely tickling my funny bone around the end of D2. When D3 came around, I had gotten nothing useful out of Rhinox, but I wanted to plant some breadcrumbs (kudos to Goat (I'll bet you were happy to find the don one!)/Rhinox for finding them) in case I was shot. I would've never guessed that I was going to be lynched. I figured sekinj, Spolium, or Goat may vote me, but I wouldn't have thought that Lynx, Ice, or Rhinox would have. I actually checked the thread when sekinj voted me and decided against speaking up anymore at that point. For some reason the things I was suggesting were really putting the town off so I thought if I lurked there was no way they would vote me over a vanilla townie claim of Spolium. I never tried to hint at knowing Ice's role, I only suggested Watcher because he had said something about pairs in reference directly to don. In retrospect that may have seemed like fishing.

In any event, what I really was attempting (and failing miserably) to do on Day 3 was pressure Spolium. I knew that the scum was between him and Goat, but I pushed Spolium too hard in an attempt to get him to look at Goat the way I did and the plan totally backfired with Spolium calling me the manipulative bastard scum. The Quack stuff was mostly just a makeshift reason for my Spolium vote, but you really got to give credit to Goat for leaving us nothing to go on.

In any case, I definitely do not blame the town for losing this one. Even if we had nabbed Goat it would've been damn hard to convince me don was scum after he claimed. Like Spolium, I would've definitely had voted Rhinox over don on Day 5.

---

My lurking was legitimately as a result of RL issues. It sucked a lot for me. I feel like I was doing fairly well prior to that, and the lurking and my struggle to get back into the game with any kind of presence really hurt me for purposes of looking pro-town.

Lurking is such a double-edged sword in that way. It can totally let others argue amongst themselves while you hang back and stay clean, but it's always going to be a thorn in your side as a potential tell the rest of the game. You did very well though Goat, at some point I had said something along the lines of, "Everytime Goat makes a post he starts looking townie again". I'd like to think, had I not decided to lurk through the end of D3, I would've pushed you a little harder, but you never know.

Don, kudos for pulling off the "I didn't understand my role and that's why I targeted RC" angle. I'm kind of surprised that actually worked out. The truth was that I tried to kill Spring, and Don couldn't really justify claiming a watcher who didn't target spring (the obvious N1 watch target) so he went for that instead. We lucked out that the other watcher was MIA that night.

I think there was a lot of solid D1 stuff against don, and I'm really kicking myself for completely taking him off my list the rest of the game.

Y'all have got to admit that it was helpful that the town Cop/Watcher were basically out of commission during D1 and a good chunk of D2. I'll never forgive Plonky/DO or millar13 for their disappointing us. Especially a player like Plonky who makes constant promises to post but never delivers on them. Come on, not when you're a Cop. Not having those reports really hurt the town.

---

And I was pretty sure Sekinj was a cop with her paraphrased role pm.

XD

I remember a very different D3 my friend.

Town's downfall was deadline lynches.

I have to agree. This and the constant replacing of the town Cop/Watcher.

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He probably wouldn't have been lynched if he claimed tracker and produced his breadcrumbed results.

I know! I thought for sure spring would talk some sense into the town. When I saw that I had been lynched I was screaming, "I got you Budja! I got you Budja, you ungrateful SOBs!" I was amazed that neither your nor don had any hand at all in lynching me.