Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[Spolium]

Budja, let's make this easy. You tell us who else is scum and we promise not to lynch you. Deal?

If he intended to self-hammer, then he failed pretty hard by not checking the vote count first. Or maybe he just voted himself because it's obvious he's going to get lynched after claiming scum.

That push in the direction of a lynch concerns me either way, really.

---------------------------------------

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't help but get a backpedalling vibe from RC when reading #300

You shouldn't as I've mentioned the prospect of a spring lynch since post 184.

Prior to post 300, 183 was actually the last time that you so much as

mentioned

a spring lynch. Almost every post inbetween reflects your unabashed support for Spring... so yeah, maybe I

should

be getting a backpedalling vibe from you.

Just like calling my "defense" WIFOM is meaningless. I don't consider it a defense.

It doesn't matter a damn what you consider it when your recent posting history goes something like:

• 230 - your "change of heart" on spring
  251 - providing your
  opinion
  on arguments against spring (megapost)
  254 - providing your
  opinion
  on arguments against spring
  256 - providing your
  opinion
  on arguments against spring
  267 - providing your
  opinion
  on arguments against spring (megapost)
  271 - providing your
  opinion
  on arguments against spring
  274 - providing your
  opinion
  on arguments against spring
  300 - nooooo they are not defences they are
  opinions
  seriously you guys

Within this range,

every single one of your posts

involved some criticism of arguments against spring.

There's something wrong with this. My contention has always been that I prefer the explanation that spring made a genuine post to the idea that it was concocted. I've made clear my own positions on spring. Without reading back, I don't think I've called another player out for a WIFOM argument on spring. I've said that many of the cases against her were derived from speculation, which is a different idea altogether.

I guess you missed #275, which highlights the two occasions on which you criticised other arguments on the basis of WIFOM.

"Without reading back" is a pretty lame fallback. It would take but half a minute to search the last few pages and see whether I mentioned it before, but I guess I'll have to keep pointing it out until you own up and explain yourself.

The rest of your post is reading far too much into my word choice.

Bullshit. When someone says "

if [player/s] want to continue pushing [suspect] on that point, then I will await and see how much else they'll learn from it

" then it is expected that they will "await and see" what else is learned from [player/s] continued pushing; the intention to badger anyone voicing further criticism of [suspect] doesn't exactly spring to mind.

I don't buy that I'm reading too much into your word choice. The implication of your statement is quite clear.

---------------------------------------

Vote: Budja for the simple fact he just comes off so scummy it isn't true. I know I am deep into this...but he is uncannily evil

He's already claimed scum. Why are you presenting reasons - vague, gutty reasons - for finding him scummy at this point?

[Jebus]

I'm very prepared to hammer, I just wasn't voting budja before because we still had a week or so of deadline to go after someone who wasn't already obvscum.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

I'm very prepared to hammer, I just wasn't voting budja before because we still had a week or so of deadline to go after someone who wasn't already obvscum.

If he was so obvscum you should have had your vote on him earlier. This post comes off pretty scummy to me.

[Deuxieme Octopus]

I'm very prepared to hammer, I just wasn't voting budja before because we still had a week or so of deadline to go after someone who wasn't already obvscum.

If he was so obvscum you should have had your vote on him earlier. This post comes off pretty scummy to me.

QFT

[springlullaby]

Vote: Budja

for the simple fact he just comes off so scummy it isn't true. I know I am deep into this...but he is uncannily evil

And what has possibly alerted you to this fact? His claiming scum?

[Budja]

Budja, let's make this easy. You tell us who else is scum and we promise not to lynch you. Deal?

How about I tell you tomorrow if you don't lynch me .

[fhqwhgads]

At one point you even questioned the 'errors' she made when she already admitted them!

Where?

I'd be more open to your side of the argument if you could point to some specifics where the notes just seem totally offbase, but frankly it's hard from me to criticize someone's shorthand as they follow the game. She said it herself these were her own personal notes about each post as the game flowed.

Granted, in my memory this stood out as more solid than it really is, I just found it funny that right after she admitted mistakes that you were downplaying them. Also there were some VERY specific posts before that where people were calling her out about it.

[RedCoyote]

It would take but half a minute to search the last few pages and see whether I mentioned it before, but I guess I'll have to keep pointing it out until you own up and explain yourself.

I need to ask you a question, because it could change this entire argument altogether. When one player references another player, gives their opinion of another player's actions, in a game of mafia, does it

always necessarily

fall into a category of either offense or defense?

When someone says "if [player/s] want to continue pushing [suspect] on that point, then I will await and see how much else they'll learn from it" then it is expected that they will "await and see" what else is learned from [player/s] continued pushing; the intention to badger anyone voicing further criticism of [suspect] doesn't exactly spring to mind.

The context within the comment entailed a level of pointlessness in the current flow of questioning. Namely because I think Goat and Lynx were both pushing spring on the wrong things, that her post was flawed because they saw it as ingenuine.

If Goat or Lynx want to continue pushing her on that point, then I will await and see

how much else

they'll learn

from it,

but I don't think

she's scum

at the moment.

I emphasized specific parts of the comment to help break it down. I said I would wait and see if they learned anything, but as for me, I was in the spring = town camp at that moment.

What's throwing this discussion off is I think you are under the impression that I was just as interested in Goat's questions that he was. I was less interested in Goat/Lynx's suspicions because of these comments:

Why [does RC] assume this is the case rather than the also plausible (and I would argue more likely) assumption that [spring] just went back and read the game?

Perhaps Spring's lack of a real vote can be chalked up to her lurking move. Though failing to vote in her huge post does stand out to me still where she casts suspicion in several directions.

My entire point was that I didn't think we could learn much more from either of these points (that spring's post was concocted and/or spring's maybe town but do not forget her lurking), but that if these players wanted to keep up with it, then I will await to see what they learn from it.


---

I agree with Lynx 352; I've always thought I was Jebus' obvscum.

---

Granted, in my memory this stood out as more solid than it really is, I just found it funny that right after she admitted mistakes that you were downplaying them.

Well I hope it works for you fhq because I still don't see what you are saying at all. What you quoted me as saying was I think part of my request to get don to give us a more succinct case against spring.

I've never tried to give the impression that her post would not have interpretive mistakes to it.

[Spolium]

I need to ask you a question, because it could change this entire argument altogether. When one player references another player, gives their opinion of another player's actions, in a game of mafia, does it

always necessarily

fall into a category of either offense or defense?

Not necessarily, no.

However, this is not pertinent to my point - you have been rebutting just about every criticism about Spring (one, perhaps two aside) and sustained this action over the course of multiple posts, in the face of arguments from multiple players.

Additionally you seem intent on playing with definitions in order to evade the accusation that you are defending Spring, but the fact remains that this is essentially what you have been doing. The least you could do is admit to it, but your evasion of this admission does not look good.

The context within the comment entailed a level of pointlessness in the current flow of questioning. Namely because I think Goat and Lynx were both pushing spring on the wrong things, that her post was flawed because they saw it as ingenuine.

If Goat or Lynx want to continue pushing her on that point, then I will await and see

how much else

they'll learn

from it,

but I don't think

she's scum

at the moment.

I emphasized specific parts of the comment to help break it down. I said I would wait and see if they learned anything, but as for me, I was in the spring = town camp at that moment.

I don't think this is relevant. While it's true that you said you considered it unlikely for her to be scum and you were willing to see what others would learn from their push on a given point, the fact remains that you went on to argue with them as they tried to pursue said point.

Basically, you didn't wait to see if they did anything at all; you directly intervened repeatedly throughout the course of all arguments against Spring. Your actions did not reflect your stated intentions, which suggests that you were lying.

What's throwing this discussion off is I think you are under the impression that I was just as interested in Goat's questions that he was.

No, I am under the impression that when you declared your intention to wait and see what happened when Goat or Lynx pursued their points against Spring, you would have done just this.

What's throwing the discussion off is that you keep reiterating that you weren't convinced it would go anywhere and that you thought Spring was town, which - while all well and good - doesn't address the incongruity between your statement and your extended

defence

opinion sharing.

[Goatrevolt]

There's nothing wrong with defending a player, but trying to use semantics to spin it as something else is.

Whether or not you will choose to admit it, you were defending Spring. Your overstated defense was a little fishy, but what strikes me as even more so is your unwillingness to admit to even defending her at all. Why are you worried about being viewed as having defended her?

Stating an opinion of Spring: "I think spring is town."
Defending Spring: "Why are you guys attacking Spring over X, Y, Z? I thought it was clear from her opening post that she was going to do Q, etc."

------

Jebus: Your opening post had Spolium and RC as your top two suspects. You never followed up on that. Why?

[springlullaby]

Jesus alot has happened. I actually believed the claim until Spring's counterclaim because with Budja's seemingly poor play I honestly didn't think he'd be ballsy enough to fake claim. I figured if he was scum he'd take the the easy way out and claim vanilla.

This is total BS, what's exactly is ballsy in fakeclaiming doc? When you are scum and about to be hanged, it's pretty much no brainer.

-----> Smelling of scum


Spolium has been pinging me too. You said you didn't think RC was scum, yet you are pushing him now.

In fact, you haven't done much since that flaccid case on Ice ages ago and been barely scrapping by from participation bonus because of your long winded and unproductive argument with Goat. Plus I think of all people, you have been discreetly pushing for case other than budja's toward the end of the day.

-----> Smelling of scum.

[millar13]

If i said i was mafia and wanted you all dead...what would you do to me?

[springlullaby]

Ask you to replace out because you sounds like SUCKS on legs.

[Goatrevolt]

If i said i was mafia and wanted you all dead...what would you do to me?

Tell you to wait in line.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Jesus alot has happened. I actually believed the claim until Spring's counterclaim because with Budja's seemingly poor play I honestly didn't think he'd be ballsy enough to fake claim. I figured if he was scum he'd take the the easy way out and claim vanilla.

This is total BS, what's exactly is ballsy in fakeclaiming doc? When you are scum and about to be hanged, it's pretty much no brainer.

Based upon Budja's which I believed was pretty timid, I honestly didn't think he'd fake claim. I figured he'd just claim vanilla. What is even scummy about this? Because I said it's ballsy? It was based upon a read of Budja's prior play today.

[TonyMontana]

Vote Count

Ya'll spending too much calories on shit that doesn't matter
Ya'll should be getting fatter on knowledge, get em dollars

L-1

Budja

(6) RedCoyote, Lynx The Antithesis, Deuxieme Octopus, Budja, Spolium, millar13
L-5

RedCoyote

(2) don_johnson, jebus

Not Voting:

fhqwhgads | Plonky | springlullaby | Goatrevolt
With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch

Deadline in

1 day and 45 minutes

[Jebus]

I'm very prepared to hammer, I just wasn't voting budja before because we still had a week or so of deadline to go after someone who wasn't already obvscum.

If he was so obvscum you should have had your vote on him earlier. This post comes off pretty scummy to me.

Obvscum after believing he was hammered and wishing his scumbuddies luck, which was pretty recent. I didn't hammer before because we still had half a week to look into other people ahead of time, so I thought I'd try that.

I don't expect to be able to post again within the 1 day deadline (which wow, that was faster than I thought), so

unvote, vote: Budja

[Spolium]

Spolium has been pinging me too. You said you didn't think RC was scum, yet you are pushing him now.

Actually, what I said was "

my gut says RC is town but there are definately some questionable aspects to his play at present

". I am pushing him now because I have become increasingly suspicious of him.

In fact, you haven't done much since that flaccid case on Ice ages ago and been barely scrapping by from participation bonus because of your long winded and unproductive argument with Goat.

At least I was

trying

to scumhunt, which is more than can be said for various others at that point. I feel the Goat argument was unproductive largely as a result of a total lack of interest, which I'll admit left me somewhat disillusioned.

I note that you've said before that you "expected better" from me as well. What is it that you expect exactly? When I criticised your snappy posts from your ridiculous lurk your response was "

do not presume to know how other people should play

".

If you think you know better, then tell me where I went wrong.

Plus I think of all people, you have been discreetly pushing for case other than budja's toward the end of the day.

How have I been discreet about questioning RC, exactly?

---------------------

If i said i was mafia and wanted you all dead...what would you do to me?

Tell you to wait in line.

[TonyMontana]

Final Count

L-0

Budja

(7) RedCoyote, Lynx The Antithesis, Deuxieme Octopus, Budja, Spolium, millar13, jebus
L-6

RedCoyote

(1) don_johnson

Not Voting:

fhqwhgads | Plonky | springlullaby | Goatrevolt

Death Scene

The town saw the body of spring lying still
They thought she would make better use being killed
So the lifeless body, they dragged to be lynched
But like christ on the 3rd day, it twitched and it flinched

"I guess she's OK", "Hey, this body's not dead"
"How bout we let live, and kill budja instead?"

A mob started forming, surrounding the man
He pleaded and begged, but the town had a plan

But suddenly, budja did raise his voice

"town, you're about to make a terrible choice
If you put me to death, then you ain't got a doc"

the whole town held it's breath, 'cept for one:

"what a crock"

it was springlullaby, she stepped out from the mob

"And I think you should die, cause you're claiming my job"

Budja replied with maniacal laughter
Before slitting his throat,

"I got what i was after

"

Budja |

Mafia Roleblocker

| Lynched Day 1

Night 1 will be extended, due to me being away this weekend.

Deadline

for sending in night choices is

Sunday, March 1st, 11pm CET

It is now Night.

[TonyMontana]

Day 2

Morning Scene

The sun rises on yet a day
Wearily people meet up to play
Unsure about who is living or dead
You look around and start counting heads
everyone gets to the count of ten
but no one is missing a foe or a friend
it dawns, like the morning,
you guess you're not mourning
cause if yiou count your own head
you see no one is dead.

No one has departed tonight.

It is now Day 2

Deadline

is

Sunday, March 22nd, 11pm CET

[springlullaby]

Hmm. Either I succeeded in my protect. Either there was no kill/ delayed kill/ some other kind of screw.

Right now I think I've just done a good job.

Vote don johnson

[Goatrevolt]

Vote Jebus

He responds to Post 334, with the following:

I'm very prepared to hammer, I just wasn't voting budja before because

we still had a week or so of deadline to go

after someone who wasn't already obvscum.

If he was so obvscum you should have had your vote on him earlier. This post comes off pretty scummy to me.

Obvscum after believing he was hammered and wishing his scumbuddies luck, which was pretty recent.

I didn't hammer before because we still had

half a week

to look into other people ahead of time, so I thought I'd try that.

I don't expect to be able to post again within the 1 day deadline

(which wow, that was faster than I thought), so

unvote, vote: Budja

I didn't pick up on this at first, but there are some serious contradictions here. Note the bolded sections and the time line associated with them. His first post answers Spring's original question, in a really scummy manner. When you look at it in context of the 2nd post it is distinctly less scummy, because it looks like he didn't actually understand the intent of Spring's post (to question people who weren't on the pre-claim Budja wagon). However, the timeline in his first reply doesn't fit with the timeline in the 2nd post. My guess is that his first post was an actual answer to the original question (context and all) and his second post just covers it up by throwing in the "after the claim" clause. The time line in his first post matches with the question spring asked. The timeline in his reply to Lynx does not match with the timeline in his first post.

The biggest point for me, though, is his stances. In his first post, Post 141, he lists Spolium/RC as his top two in likelihood to be scum. He votes SL....ok, I can buy his follow the lurker explanation and it's consistent with his unvote once SL provided content. The real issue is in Post 289. In that post he states that Coyote hasn't pinged his scumdar thus far and neither had Spolium. What? They were his number 1 and number 2 targets in his original post. He never followed up on them, and now he states that they never pinged his scumdar? So why were they originally suspicious? The worst part, though, is that he votes RC in this very same post where he states RC never pinged his scumdar. He doesn't even address RC at all in that post.

Instead of voting for Budja, he votes RC, whom he states hasn't pinged his scumdar

earlier in the same post

. His reasoning on RC? Dependent scum tells based on others flips. Whose flips, and why wouldn't you want to lynch the player he depends on first?

The fact that Jebus labeled Budja as scum, but decided to instead go for the "dependent scum tell" wagon on RC is quite telling here.

[don_johnson]

Hmm. Either I succeeded in my protect. Either there was no kill/ delayed kill/ some other kind of screw.

Right now I think I've just done a good job.

Vote don johnson

i love unexplained votes.

i'm going to reread.

[Spolium]

As was probably clear towards the end of D1, RC was a major candidate for my D2 vote, mostly due to:

- refusal to concede that he was defending Spring
- criticism of WIFOM while citing WIFOM as the basis of his "entire point" concerning Spring
- the Budja contradiction from #72, as I noted in #119

The last point seems particularly relevant in light of Budja's flip.

However, Goat's case on Jebus looks to be pretty solid. I will need to do some more reading as and when I get the chance and await Jebus' response with anticipation.

Spring, I'm seconding the request for an explanation - are you voting don_johnson for essentially the same reasons for which you suspected him in D1, or have you had some sort of D2 epiphany?

Also:

Hmm. Either I succeeded in my protect. Either there wthe as no kill/ delayed kill/ some other kind of screw.

Option 3: you are scum, there is no doctor and you orchestrated the doc claim/counter claim and the subsequent no kill to throw people off the scent.

Who did you protect, and why?

[Goatrevolt]

Hmm. Either I succeeded in my protect. Either there wthe as no kill/ delayed kill/ some other kind of screw.

Option 3: you are scum, there is no doctor and you orchestrated the doc claim/counter claim and the subsequent no kill to throw people off the scent.

Seriously? This is a highly complicated gambit that is both extremely unlikely and has a huge chance to fail. What if there was a real doc, who counterclaimed both of them? Besides the fact that it would be hilarious for two scum to out themselves in a unnecessarily complicated failing gambit day 1, the chances of them actually attempting to coordinate something like this is pretty much zero.

I'm pretty suspicious of this here. Resistance to confirming innocents is scummy.