Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Beyond_Birthday

Because he's the only player I'm familiar with.

[Zachrulez]

Does that mean you'll be voting again since the votes are reset?

[Zachrulez]

Alright.

Vote ectomancer.

Let's lynch him and call it a day.

A call for a lynch on page one is good enough for my vote at this point I think...

Vote: Springlullaby

[Zachrulez]

vote: Sipylus

because its his birthday, hes from down under, and, again, because. thats why

What the hell is this? Random stage voting? We were out of that stage at my first post.

vote Skillit

Total BS. You don't get to just decide when RVS ends. If we say that the RVS ended when you posted then we never had one at all seeing as how you were the first one to post when the day begun.

If I join a game, make a vote and say it's not random I don't end RVS just by my say-so. I don't then get to attack everyone else for playing naturally with the assumption that there will be a random voting stage. Which is what you are doing.

Uhhh... that vote was made on page 2 after discussion had started taking place.

[Zachrulez]

Oh yay, another scoring system.

This one works the opposite of the one I'm familiar with though... low score bad, high good. The one I saw before this was low good and high bad.

Anyway, I don't agree with a lurker being scored as low as you put him. I would much rather see players replaced than lynched solely because they lurk.

I guess you believe lurking is scummy and lurkers should be lynched?

Anyway, I'm more concerned with JereIC at the moment. I don't get why he was so worried about casting a 4th vote on someone. Lynch -3 really isn't that bad is it?

I don't understand one why he cast the vote in the first place, and two how he didn't realize that springlullaby had 3 votes on her.

Just find it strange.

[Zachrulez]

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

That post made me blink my eyes in amazement.

[Zachrulez]

Questions addressed at the populace in general, requesting replies:

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

Hopefully there aren't any, if there are, they belong in a newbie game.

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

Depends... are some of the people pushing the speedlynch otherwise inclined to know better?

How is scummy activity not good news?

It's not good news if the person committing the scummy activity is town, since it could possibly cause a mislynch. Scum committing scummy activity is good news.

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

No, I just don't believe speedlynching is beneficial in general.

[Zachrulez]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

zwetschenwasser, you say it was a post to make it look like I was posting something meaningful, well I wasn't trying to make it look like that. It was a serious question and NOBODY had an answer, meaning that there is NOTHING TO GO BUY.

So what we got here is a guy that said there's nothing meaningful at this point of the game, and later on emhasizes the fact that there's nothing to go by. (Yes I corrected the spelling.)

This ignores... (I'm not claiming this to be a complete list)

1. Ecto's vote on me. Delved into an interesting discussion about possible scum motivations into my vote. (Even though it was just the first person and first crappy reason I could think of.)

2. Spring's bandwagon which pretty much resulted from stating that we should just lynch Ecto and call it a day.

3. Spring asserting a speedlynch is the best thing that could happen to the town on page 2. The reasoning to this afterwards was interesting, but I can't really say I agree with it.

All this before Zero's first post about what could be meaningful about the game at that point. (Hint, look at the posts where I got these 3 interesting things, and make sure to pay attention to some of the bandwagons that started forming early on.)

I am leaning minorly on the scum end for Spring and JereIC, my vote on Spring being the only major lead I could see when I made the vote, and finding myself curious about why JereIC called a spring 3rd vote reckless before recklessly casting a

4th

vote on spring without realizing it, and then unvoted to avoid any stigma or possible suspicion that would come with being the 4th vote.

Anyway, I'm bothered by the fact that Zero's vote is on Spring, that he hasn't bothered to retract the vote which on my understanding was, and still is random. He gets into a fight with Zwet over active lurking, which is interesting cause I don't see Zwet contributing all that much either... but yeah. Sitting on a spring bandwagon while emphasizing that we have nothing to go on?

I'm gonna do this.

Unvote Vote : Zer0ph34r

[Zachrulez]

Beyond, you think I planned Spring to be suspicious? How would I do that? My first post was a vote for him and then he was thought of as suspicious.

Good point. I will give you this. That argument was a stretch on his part.

And as for the question thing, it wasn't directed towards anyone specific, just ANYONE. I would like to know what info we could've gone on at the time I posted it to lynch someone.

See my case. It explained some of the things we had/have to go on.

Jeez, I always come off as suspicious. I'm not going to just change my vote because someone tells me to, because then they'll think I'm scum and I can't stick with this vote or people will think I'm scum. So, I don't know what to do. But I will most likely stick with this vote because it was my original vote.

You should be more worried about whether your vote is a good one or not rather than what changing/leaving it will have us thinking. I'm bothered by the fact that you're more concerned about the latter.

Also noticing that my vote came on post 126 and was only the 2nd vote (correct me if I'm wrong.) By post 138, Zero is up to 5 votes. Was my case really that good?

[Zachrulez]

Sorry for my absence, but damn. People sure did seem to talk about me a lot. Apparently it seems I am the first to go. (For the third time now.) People obviously don't like my playing style, but I don't care. People keep lynching me, they are one step closer to losing.

I claim to be a Townie. Not that it matters because none of you will believe me, anyway. But you asked. I have "thunked" about it and decided to change my vote.

Unvote. Vote: zwetschenwasser

People want a reason for my vote? Okay, how about the mere fact that I don't like this guy for making people hate me.

Everyone seems to find my scummy or at the very least suspicious. Every game I have been in so far, my fellow players have made the same mistake; lynching me; a Townie, on day 1. If you guys wanna be the third group of fools to do it, by all means, go right ahead. People may not LIKE my methods of playing, but too bad, I'm not changing it because I LOOK scummy, because so far, I never have been scum. Have any of you thought to yourselves, "Well, he's acting like he did in his other games, so maybe when he acts differently, he's scum?" If not, do so.

Hint: If no one likes your playing style, perhaps it's time to change it.

Claiming that Zwet made people hate you? Give me a break man. That is just ridiculous.

Zwet had nothing to do with me finding you scummy. My analysis of your play did.

[Zachrulez]

Honestly I haven't been paying much attention through most of the weekend, so I have been reading in order to attempt to catch up with the discussion.

I do not like Spring's vote on JereIC... in fact after reading JereIC's points against Spring, and looking back at the game context, I really don't like her much at all.

I'm just finding it hard to believe that JereIC's points against Spring are scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Because of this...

{JereIC, Zwet, Beyond B, Zach, Sipylus, WolfBlitzer}

There is scum on this wagon. Zero is an easy target, as new players usually are. His erratic play and inability to grasp advanced Mafia theory makes him an ideal d1 herring, a perfect opportunity to force a claim from him (and potentially other town power-roles, in an attempt to validate or disprove Zero's original claim) and put themselves in a wet dream on night 1.

How can you possibly know for a fact that scum is on this wagon? It's possible that all the votes against Zero are town. In fact if you look at things from a hypothetical standpoint, it's also possible that you are making this point as his scum buddy, in order to make a case to get the bandwagon off of him. If he's town, maybe you just want the bandwagon somewhere else in hopes of lynching a power role (Since he's claimed townie.)

[Zachrulez]

Zachrulez, explain why you think JereIC points are good.

Oooooo... a demand.

So now... you can...

1. Try asking me nicely this time.

2. Explain why you think his points are scummy.

3. Tell me where you saw the word good in my post about his points.

[Zachrulez]

1. Explain what 'nice' has to do with anything.

2. I already explained why his points are scummy.

3. You said that you didn't believe JereIC's point were scummy, as per 2, I expect you to explain why you don't find my arguments convincing.

1. Has to do with asking me politely in a way that's more likely to make me want to respond. Some people would call it manners.

2. Well that's great. Would you care to point out the exact posts or quotes, or do you want me to struggle to look through and find these explanations, so that when I fumble with trying to find them, you can find me scummy too?

3. Am I supposed to find your arguments convincing? I must have missed the rule that said that was a requirement to play this game.

[Zachrulez]

I'm up to lynch zero, the wifom is going to kill me. But I have a couple thing to say first so no one lynches yet. Posting tomorrow.

Now... you're next post.

JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?

I'd like you to explain why you think the comment made by JereIC is anything but scummy.

Because to me that comment is one of the scummiest he has made, it is the equivalent of saying 'we should lynch scum because it's good to lynch scum', which says exactly nothing.

------------------------------

Ectomancer, I'd like to know what you think of JereIC.

So you found JereIC scummy, but you were up to lynching Zero?

It seems to me that your vote against him was premeditated and that you were LYING about being up to lynching Zero.

Hmmmm...

[Zachrulez]

I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.

My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.

Spring really hasn't contributed much either.

I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.

By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

BTW, part in bold is a really crappy argument.

Is this why he's scummy?

Why is it a crappy argument?

[Zachrulez]

I'm up to lynch zero, the wifom is going to kill me. But I have a couple thing to say first so no one lynches yet. Posting tomorrow.

Now... you're next post.

JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?

I'd like you to explain why you think the comment made by JereIC is anything but scummy.

Because to me that comment is one of the scummiest he has made, it is the equivalent of saying 'we should lynch scum because it's good to lynch scum', which says exactly nothing.

------------------------------

Ectomancer, I'd like to know what you think of JereIC.

So you found JereIC scummy, but you were up to lynching Zero?

It seems to me that your vote against him was premeditated and that you were LYING about being up to lynching Zero.

Hmmmm...

I am still up to lynch Zero, I however would prefer lynching JereIC for the reasons I have cited.

The 'premedited' argument is an interesting attack. It is the same kind of argument that JereIC has used, and scummy in the same way because my alleged refusal to lynch Zero could possibly be considered scummy only if Zero were scum. This makes me ask the same question that I have asked of JereIC: what make you so sure Zero is scum?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=126

Add to that his refusal to acknowledge anyone who has actually BOTHERED to answer his question and his continued assertions that no one has...

I'm as sure as you can get on day 1. A lot more sure than I am about your alignment or JereIC's one way or another.

[Zachrulez]

I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.

My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.

Spring really hasn't contributed much either.

I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.

By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

BTW, part in bold is a really crappy argument.

Is this why he's scummy?

Why is it a crappy argument?

It is a crappy argument because it rest on the supposition that I genuinely wanted to 'speedlynch' Ectomancer.

Accusation to which I have already answered and countered easily: I already stated that I was not.

It is further scummy because the supporting argument he presents to that accusation is very flimsy: I have already explained the reasoning behind my 'speedlynches are good for town' comment, and JereIC has yet to come up with a convincing rejoinder demonstrating why I am wrong.

As some would say, this entire argument is pure conjecture, and not a very good one at that.

You know you didn't want to speedlynch Ecto, but everyone else... it depends on believing you when you say it.

I did not agree with your "speedlynches are good for town" comment, or your stated assessment of how they could be... but that's fine, we don't have to think the same way about that.

His case lacks proof, and I have never in any way said it was good. Notice that I'm more interested in your reactions and attacks of him and am more investigating right now rather then leaping to a conclusion.

You can argue his case is bad. You can argue that him believing you are scum based on whether or not Zero is scum is just downright bad play, but I can't really see how you can argue that it's blatantly scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Wait a minute...

I am still up to lynch Zero, I however would prefer lynching JereIC for the reasons I have cited.

The 'premedited' argument is an interesting attack. It is the same kind of argument that JereIC has used, and scummy in the same way because my alleged refusal to lynch Zero could possibly be considered scummy only if Zero were scum. This makes me ask the same question that I have asked of JereIC: what make you so sure Zero is scum?

You haven't made your opinion clear at all. You said yesterday you were up for lynching Zero, but you haven't voted for him. You say it's a crapshoot as to whether he's scum, but don't explain why the case is weak. You haven't commented on Nuwen's analysis, which could support your case against me pretty well, but would require you to talk about Zero.

1. He was at L1, I didn't want to hammer because there were other things I wanted to comment on.
2. I said very clearly why I thought Zero was crapshoot, I think he has an equal chance of being awkward scum and awkward town. I also think the best argument against him right now is to get rid of the distraction.

My point's not just about content - your timing and apparent unwillingness to discuss Zero, even when it's in your interest, are suspect. That's what makes it look like you're trying to cover for him while distancing yourself from him, and if he turns out to be scummy, that's going to make you look scummy too.

1. Apparent willingness to discuss Zero, where? I said everything that there is to say about him already. Please point out where you discussed him in any detail.

2. What you say here would be remotely workable only if Zero is scum. Which led me to the question, what make you so sure Zero is scum?

___________________

Ok, I've got enough I think. I decided that I'm not lynching Zero.

Vote JereIC

: circular logic, generalities sprouting, bad arguments. See my discussion vs him.

I think it's a much better vote than Zero who has a higher chance of being just an idiot.

Pay close attention to the bolded portion.

So which is it Spring? Are you still up to lynching Zero, or have you decided, as you stated in 196 that you are not lynching Zero?

[Zachrulez]

Zachrulez, explain why you think JereIC points are good.

1. Try asking me nicely this time.

2. Explain why you think his points are scummy.

3. Tell me where you saw the word good in my post about his points.

1. Explain what 'nice' has to do with anything.

2. I already explained why his points are scummy.

3. You said that you didn't believe JereIC's point were scummy, as per 2, I expect you to explain why you don't find my arguments convincing.

Jesus Christ, Mary, and the other guy. Stop this type of question-counterquestion play. It's not productive, cute, or clever. One doesn't always need to be on the questioning side to have a one-up in conversation. One doesn't always

need

a one-up in conversation.

If someone asks a question that you already answered, provide links and quotes. He or she is obviously having a hard time finding the answer, which requires clarity from the respondent. Neither of you are extracting or contributing useful information by repeatedly head-butting the other with senseless semantic quibbles.

I look forward to you reading the rest of the game. (This would mean the posts that have come below and AFTER the posts you quoted.)

[Zachrulez]

Nuwen: I actually think that Zero's meta can be somewhat useful
Spring: Stop contradicting yourself, and what does Skillit have to do with anything?
Zach: Answer the damn question. You're just making yourself look like a question dodger.

Nuwen's flowery post is clearly just a "he's a noob" assertion (another reason why I hate reads and prefer concise arguments). I dislike BB's quick agreement with the "flawless logic". It seems like an attempt to distance yourself from Zero's lynch. Spring, you were almost nonexistent at the beginning of the game, and now you're trying to distance yourself from a Zero lynch. It seems that since everyone is assuming that scum will bus their scum buddies to death, you can fly under the radar by supporting him instead. Nuwen, your latest post is flawed, for the reason outlined in my last sentence. Zach: see above. You're dodging questions with BS reasons.

The ones in question, from towniest to scummiest:

BB
Nuwen
Spring
Zach

Question Dodger? WTF question am I dodging?

[Zachrulez]

I do see why people are voting Zero, but there are also things I do not like about his wagon.
- the fact that he has played so very un-apologetically badly actually augment the risk of him being terrible town in my eyes
- the fact that the wagon was so linear, it seems very much too easy
- the fact that skillit, our resident lurker, has not reacted to it on way or another

These are factors which make me doubt about Zero, and I want to know why you, amonst others, do not seem to consider them. What do you say?

I don't like dismissing or pegging terrible play as bad town. Do we really want to risk someone acting out this role as a defense when they are scum by tolerating such horrible play?

I can see your point about the wagon, but it hasn't resulted in a speedlynch, and with the deadline being extended, a lynch on Zero doesn't really seem easily forthcoming now.

Skillit's non response is not relevant because he's lurking anyway.

What else do you propose anyone base their arguments on if not on bad arguments and bad play?

Eh, I guess I can see why you find him scummy. I don't find him as scummy as Zero however.

[Zachrulez]

Alrighty, peoples. You want me to post a reason as to why you shouldn't lynch me? Okay, I have a couple:

1. I am not scum.
2. If you don't lynch me, you will be the first group of people to have my help after day one, where I can actually be a big help.
3. I think most people are having a tendency to keep questioning whether or not I am scum and not really thinking to much about whether or not anyone else is (or at least, not expressing it, anyway).
4. Give me a freaking chance.

May not be good reasons, but they are reasons.

1. Are we supposed to take you at your word?

2. So far, you've been little help.

3. Untrue. Read some of the more recent posts.

4. If you want a chance, then do some actual scum hunting please.

[Zachrulez]

FOS: Zwet

For someone who called me a question dodger, (225) he seems to be dodging the question I asked him about what question I dodged. (231)

Vote stays on Zero until he actively participates in the game and starts scumhunting.

[Zachrulez]

2&2()}€/\12s wagon (see, im £1ë[-7 too!!eleven) seems way too easy for it to have grown to five votes without scum helping it along. id say there are probably around two scum on the wagon, and those two scum are probably zwetschenwasser and either beyond_birthday or zachrulez.

If you don't know whether scum are on the wagon or not... PLEASE stop assuming. If you do know... then you ARE scum.

note that im not defending z3r0ph34r. im just saying that hes way too easy a target. if hes scum, hes being bussed, and im not even sure thats whats happening. his reaction seems more like pissy noob town than scum. actually, take that back. i am defending him. 176 all but convinces me hes town. appeals to emotion are what noobtown

do

. in light of that, zachrulez 179 and zwetschenwassers 180 feel really scummy. zach doesnt even really sound like he thinks z3r0ph34r is scum, and zwetschenwasser is pulling the meta card on him when its, what, his second or third game? metas can vary wildly for the first five or so games as a player tries to develop a consistent playstyle.

Let me get this straight... you are defending his play as newbie play, in a non newbie game? This is not a newbie game, if it was, then I MIGHT listen to this bullshit. Worse than that is that you try to argue that he's town based on an appeal to emotion. Wonderful, trying to put shit logic on what is already a logical fallacy.

I am in absolute amazement at the fact that my case against Zero is suddenly scummy just because YOU have determined him to be town. Whatever man.

pablo gets tentative townie points for 162. thats wifom, but the wine has to be on one side or the other (shut up, wesley). wolfblitzer loses them for his response.

Because his argument is on the side of thinking that Zero might be scum?

z3r0ph34r is getting really emotional about explaining why hes not emotional. he feels ubertown.

Bullshit.

as of zwetschenwassers 184, im ready to lynch him. pure gloating scum.

Maybe, you seem to be too decisive and certain though.

jereic is omgussing poorly.

Huh? Is this in reference to his exchange with Spring?

nuwen gets hugemongoultramega town points for 190. finally, a voice of sanity other than springlullaby. the more i read of this post the more i think

yes yes exactly!

for the record, nuwen, from what ive read ecto is usually this abrasive, especially when hes the among the most experienced players in the game. he kind of shrinks when hes not.

Reading this kind of praise bothers me.

rofl @ beyond_birthdays hmmmm okay whatever vote springlullaby. beyond_birthday is using another one of those posts where he doesnt say anything worthwhile and he takes a long time to do it.

I didn't understand that vote either.

zachrulez responses to nuwen are really scummy. oh yeah? well maybe

youre

his scumbuddy! also, quit being snarky (yeah, its a word). its not helping anything, and it just makes you look like a petulant asshole.

This point makes no sense. You already said above you don't think Zero is being bussed. By the way, why would I make a case against him, and shine the spotlight right on his face if I was?

I'm going to ignore the rest of that paragraph...

theres really nothing interesting in the last two pages except zwetschenwasser voting zachrulez. bussing? idk.

Zwet hasn't voted for me. I don't know WHERE you think you saw such a vote...

vote: zwetschenwasser

i would also be happy with a zachrulez lynch, and possibly a different one (id be fine with beyond_birthday) depending on the circumstances.

preview edit: zer0ph34r, in case you didnt notice, youre getting a second chance. nuwen gave you one. now quit bitching and start helping. no need to wait until the second day. i know youre new at this. get over it.

lets get this show on the road.

Zero doesn't get a 2nd chance from me until he actually does try to help. I'm sick of this, "I can be more of a help on day 2 crap." Start helping now.

[Zachrulez]

Also another thought I had...

You call Zero's wagon easy, but vote for Zwet?

They're both active lurkers, and both seem like easy bandwagons.

It... just... seems... hyp-o-cri-ti-cal.

[Zachrulez]

You're really calling zwet an active lurker? He's kept his posts short, but they have had significant content than these long fluff-posts flting around. Hell, he's been one of the main proponents of the Zero wagon.

Ok, this was perhaps more true toward the beginning of the game and less so now... so I'll concede that, but I stand by my statement that both wagons seem easy.

[Zachrulez]

My God, did MaFoHero break out of the same asylum as Nuwen and Spring? Who scrawled onto your padded cell walls "SPEEDLYNCHES ARE GOOD 4 TOWN"? You all can't be part of a science experiment: not even the maddest of mad scientists are that insane.*

Obvious insanity aside, your points about Zach and Zwet seem decent, and Zach's response to them is fascinating. However, you defense of Zero is

exactly the same

as Nuwen's and Spring's. And it's still basically the newbie defense. I can't imagine you picked that up at the insane asylum too.... Also, I plain don't like anyone who comes to the defense of another in this game, unless they're masons or otherwise have proof of each other's towniness.

I've got some thoughts about beyond_birthday too, gimme a chance to write them down and make them clear.

* Not that I'm interested in discussing it atm. After the game, I've got a thesis I'm going to post on this.

Fascinating how?

Also, I fail to see how the argument that I am scum looking to quick lynch a townie is decent when you also argue that the person in question is my scum buddy in the same post.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, one thing struck me as odd about Zwet's posts. In post 57, BB calls Zero's posts up to that point "cute". In post 64 Zwet dismisses BB's criticism and says that cute posts are ok. But in post 87 he goes after Zero for a "blah" post. The change of heart seems odd, especially because Zwet goes onto vote for Zero because of these blah posts.

BB's monster post is going to keep me busy for another day at least.

Interesting point.

I have noted the apparent hypocrisy on Zwet's part.

[Zachrulez]

zwet, you realize of course that saying after everything I post "That was a useless post." is kind of pointless, right? There's no reason to say it after every post because that itself is useless and pointless.

[Please be smart enough to not type "Useless Post" after this]

Still waiting for you to read some game content and actually make use of it...

[Zachrulez]

I already did? I guess would be the answer I were to give.

Go look at my post 126... which is one example of scum hunting, making use of game content, and analyzing play.

You could start by addressing those points against you in a logical manner, rather than by appealing to emotion.

You could also scum hunt, make use of the game content, and analyze everyone's play... and see who's acting scummy out of all of us.

I mean seriously, do I have to draw you a MAP?

[Zachrulez]

Zwet, it's so awesome knowing that the most you can do is vote for me. And I think with all of the nothingness we have been talking about, it kind of proves that talking about nothing is pretty much the only thing left to do until the day ends. [Oh yes! That's sure scum talk isn't it? Actually, it probably is.] I have a question for everyone in the game:

WHO WOULD LIKE ME TO BE THE FIRST PERSON LYNCHED?

This is seriously really starting to irritate me.

FOR THE LOVE OF MY SANITY...

Please posts your thoughts on somebody other than Zwet. I don't care who. Anybody. Just show me that you care about this game beyond Zwet, and that you really want to give us something to go on rather than continually trying to say we have nothing. (It's a lie, and your just making yourself look worse by continually repeating it.)

[Zachrulez]

Hey Zwet, whenever you feel like taking a break from constantly calling for Zero's lynch (Which incidentally might increase Zero's chances of actually playing the game) you can feel free to address either post 231 or 265. Both ask basically the same thing and you have ignored them up to this point...

[Zachrulez]

Okay, so far, 1 person wants me to be lynched, or at least is saying so.
Spring, I am playing this game, maybe not the way you want me to or even in a good way, but I am. Here's something to confuse people:

I am 100% sure that Zwet is a Mafia Member, and there's only one way I can possibly know this. Acknowledging this sentence would be wise for all of you. [I am cutting the smart ones a break.]

I would really like to let this slide but I can't.

I'm going to have to ask you to elaborate and be specific about what you are saying/claiming.

How can you be 100% sure?

[Zachrulez]

He's claiming a bastard backup mod with complete knowledge of the setup.

I read that he's claiming scum (just short of outright saying it.)

Which is stupid because if he actually is, we can just test the claim by lynching him... and even then, he could still be lying about you.

[Zachrulez]

It's 7 to lynch isn't it?

[Zachrulez]

He is now.

[Zachrulez]

Zwet, I said both of those once. Does anyone else find it odd how he keeps babbling on about how I should just leave? Can anyone actually tell me anything that Zwet has done. Obviously I haven't done crap either, but what the hell has zwet or ANYONE for that matter found out? Listen, I may not remember everything that is written, but I do read it, and an overview of everything, have we actually learned anything about who may be scum right now. I mean, ACTUALLY learned something?

We've learned that you either need to be replaced or lynched.

And if you're going to tell us what you're going on about with this 100% certainty thing, you better do it fast.

[Zachrulez]

I'd actually be more willing to believe Zwet is innocent after hearing that.

And that's because I think you're lying.

[Zachrulez]

I thought it was clear from yesterday's spring/jere debate that jere's alignment would point towards spring's scum/towniness.

Why does that make me think YOU killed JereIC?

[Zachrulez]

Oops. I thought I did vote spring on page fourteen. I must have deleted it.

Vote: Spring

. I'd like Zach to explain exactly why my post makes him think I pushed for a NK, using quotes from yesterday. I never showed much interest in Spring yesterday, and I don't think I implied yesterday that I was going after the spring case today. I simply noticed the arguments presented against spring, and now that significant incriminating evidence has been provided, I have good grounds to find him scummy.

JereIC dying incriminates Spring?

See, I find you suspicious because you are trying to push the idea that Spring is scum on the basis of a nightkill alone.

The thing is, I don't really see a decent reason for Spring to kill JereIC, but since there was some exchange between JereIC and Spring, it would make sense for

someone else

to kill JereIC and advance the idea that Spring is definitely scum because of the fact that she was going at it with JereIC the previous day.

While there is a WIFOM argument to be made for Spring killing JereIC for that exact reason, I think you have overplayed your hand sir.

[Zachrulez]

I'm finding it awfully tempting to vote for Zwet, but when I really think about it, I'm not sure if my vote is better placed on him or Nuwen.

They are my top suspects though.

Let's start with Zwet.

349: Aha, Spring is scum. Nice to know that can be argued without any kind of a case, and based only on the NK.

351: Claims JereIC's town flip incriminates Spring. Oh yeah, also COMPLETELY agrees with Nuwen... huh?

353: Fluff

355: I posted that Spring was scum before Nuwen!

358: Direct quote in bold.

I thought it was clear from yesterday's spring/jere debate that jere's alignment would point towards spring's scum/towniness.

I would like Zwet to explain how that statement carries merit. It's based off the assumption that apparently only scum are critical of/attack townies.

364: Points out BB's reluctance to the Zero wagon. I'm sensing that someone likes pointing fingers so that we don't notice who pushed Zero's wagon so hard, antagonizing him the whole way.

366, 368: Demonstrates either an inability to read, or an inability to pay attention to what was said.

371: Votes Spring after being asked why he didn't vote in the face of such certainty. Points out his relative disinterest in the Spring case on day 1, but says he did notice the arguments against her, and finds the night 1 evidence incriminating. Hmmm...

Now Nuwen.

350: "Zero's wagon was virtually useless" stinks of scum gloating to me. Argues the JereIC wagon as a reason for voting Spring... and also a fascinating theory about my exchange with her being designed to distract from her attempted wagoning of JereIC. I say fascinating, because I thought the point of my disagreement with her was to DRAW attention to what she was doing.

356: WIFOM argument. I hate these. I see the point of it... but I'm very reluctant to buy/act/play based on it. I see it being a far more beneficial strategy for Spring to simply kill someone else if she's scum.

357: Direct quote in bold

Yeah, that's why Ecto and I don't like it. We realize that you've been pursuing spring since yesterday, but you didn't point out how Jere and Zero's alignment confirmed spring's alignment to you. I have the reasons I stated, but they're less definitive - care to share yours?

When playing mafia, it's a good idea to assume others players cannot read minds.

I am VERY confused by this post, because I haven't seen any posts prior to post 357, back to the beginning of the day where Nuwen states any concern for Zwet's suspicion of Spring.

361, 362: Backtracks on me being Spring's most likely scum buddy.

365: Grills Zwet on his presumption of Spring being scum. What about YOURS?

367: Fascinating. I smell a scum bus.

369: More scent to possible bussing. Nuwen asks where Zwet's vote is... which is a fair question. (Zwet does vote soon after I believe.)

378: D'OH! Re-read indicates that Spring doesn't look suspicious to Nuwen after all. The transformation is complete, now the entirety of the suspicion can be focused on Zwet. One thing here... what stopped you from doing a re-read BEFORE voting for Spring? Just curious.

Not ready to vote yet, and I don't really see any hurry to.

I want to see Zwet's response to the case and votes against him, and am also interested to see Nuwen's reaction to me... and I'm interested in seeing more of how Zwet and Nuwen react to each other as well.

For now.

FOS: Zwet and Nuwen

From here, I'll probably have another look at day 1, and see if there's anything there that can shed more light on what's going on now.

[Zachrulez]

The last few posts make me uncomfortable...

A Jester claim is one of the safest claims you can possibly make in a game.

I wouldn't say I'm exactly worried about actually lynching a Jester though.

The whole concept of the role seems retarded, because it basically punishes town for doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

I say we don't second guess based on that.

Nuwen proposing the concept as a possibility for Zwet not being scum concerns me though.

[Zachrulez]

Zwet, what do you think of my analysis of you and Nuwen?

[Zachrulez]

I am VERY confused by this post, because I haven't seen any posts prior to post 357, back to the beginning of the day where Nuwen states any concern for Zwet's suspicion of Spring.

Nothing screams scum/irrational town play to me like an unjustified vote. I don't have to actively pursue a player to read one of his or her posts, recognize a fault, and point it out or ask for clarification. Are you suggesting that someone needs to be tunneling another player in order for his or her suspicions not to be suspicious themselves? I think you read this post in retrograde,

after

deciding that I'm bussing Zwet, and then tried to make it fit the scenario.

I'm not really satisfied with this answer.

I also haven't "decided" that you're bussing Zwet, but I see the possibility that this could be happening. (Using the word possible is far from having a position of certainty.)

[Zachrulez]

I thought I addressed everything. Quote what you think I missed?

If I were to guess. I think he's saying you ignored the backtracking part of my analysis where you backed off from saying that I was a top candidate for being Spring's scum buddy.

But I'm not going to stake my life savings on that.

If there's something else he thinks you missed, I would like him to point that out too... cause I think you did address everything else.

[Zachrulez]

You ignored part of his case on you, namely the part about your wishy-washiness with regard to Spring?

You mean this?

361, 362: Backtracks on me being Spring's most likely scum buddy.

[Zachrulez]

I'm looking at this day and founding it depressing.

Zwet, who do you think is scum beside me?


It is almost certain I'm voting zwet today. Still, no hurry.

I rest my case. Nuwen and Spring are scum.

Based on... the JereIC nightkill?

... I'm still having trouble understanding how certainty is derived from that.

[Zachrulez]

How do you call it scummy?

[Zachrulez]

Which means what exactly?

I mean does it warrant a response or a defense? What would you say to an accusation that you are scum based solely on the fact that someone died?

Would you think it worth defending yourself to be seen as defensive?

Or would you think that such an attack doesn't even warrant a response?

By the way. Spring's gender icon is female, a lot of people have been using the wrong pronoun when speaking of her.

[Zachrulez]

Change the middle sentence to the last post a little bit.

Would you think it worth defending yourself and risk being seen as defensive?

[Zachrulez]

Let's start at the beginning: your elaborate declaration that Spring is scum due to the NK. Why did you just drop it all at once instead of discussing and building a stronger case? It seems all you have is overeager conjecture. The best defense is a good offense, so go on the offensive and give us something other than, "LOOK LOOK SCUM!" Quotes? Elaboration?

(I dunno what the rest of you want from him, but it's a start.)

I wouldn't mind seeing any or all of that.

In the meantime, I am going to have another look at Zwet's day one play.

[Zachrulez]

Anyone else think Zwet gets lost doing a connect the dots puzzle?

I mean that IS how easy this discussion is to follow.

[Zachrulez]

Oh you gotta be kidding me...

[Zachrulez]

All that for a lightning fast self hammer 2 minutes later, it makes me want to break something.

[Zachrulez]

I'm still here.

I think I owe this game a re-read.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Springlullaby

I object to your lurker hunting. Why waste our time doing it when he will more than likely be mod killed anyway?

[Zachrulez]

You know what, the modding is really crap. Upon verification Sypilus hasn't posted in like more than 2 months.

FOS ZACHRULEZ

For suggesting to let modkill happen on a blatant flaker.

MOD: I object to your modding, finding replacements and prodding inactive players is your job. If you do not replace inactive players you can count me out of this game.

Your FOS is bullshit.

But I agree with your objection to the modding as well.

I'm not suggesting that we should let him be modkilled, I would much rather prefer to see him replaced.

With you trying to distort my position on that matter when I obviously have no control over, I am really starting to think that you are actually scum.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP

You know what, the modding is really crap. Upon verification Sypilus hasn't posted in like more than 2 months.

FOS ZACHRULEZ

For suggesting to let modkill happen on a blatant flaker.

MOD: I object to your modding, finding replacements and prodding inactive players is your job. If you do not replace inactive players you can count me out of this game.

Your FOS is bullshit.

But I agree with your objection to the modding as well.

I'm not suggesting that we should let him be modkilled, I would much rather prefer to see him replaced.

With you trying to distort my position on that matter when I obviously have no control over

it

, I am really starting to think that you are actually scum.

[Zachrulez]

zachrulez

- hated his attempt to argue that there might NOT be scum on the zero wagon. Can

definitely

see the possibility of he and spring distancing with the "Ask me nicely" bickering.

To be fair, this argument is a bit retroactive, being made with knowledge you have now that Zero is town. (Obviously I haven't argued it since, because the town reveal of Zero made the argument silly.)

Still it's kind of hard to argue that it's scummy when I made it before knowing whether or not Zero was scum.

[Zachrulez]

Big fat meaningless FoS at Spring: While it doesn't clear Setael, I am curious as to why you think that a complete absence transfers into that player equalling scum. He could be scum with a partner doing all the work, sure, but I don't see your logical follow through at all.

If you are talking about Sypilus, I assume that he is town. Because I assume that a mod would always replace scum first. Because if else it is totally unfair to town. And because it is easier to forget about a townie than one of your active night roles when you are a mod.

And that is exactly why Zach is suspicious.

Vote: Springlullaby

I object to your lurker hunting. Why waste our time doing it when he will more than likely be mod killed anyway?

This post suggest that Zach was aware Sipylus was a flaker. (I was not. Reviewing people posts, I just assumed that Sipylus had picked up prods but was lurking since he was still in the game, which would be way scummy indeed.) But even with this knowledge Zach did not protest the fact that Sipylus was going to be modkilled.

And being content with letting modkill happen on a most probably town player when it's blatantly not town's fault if some players flake is just crappy and scummy.

And, Zach, as for you having 'no control over' the situation, it's totally bull, you have the exact same amount control over the situation than I do, which is you can protest it.

I was pointing out a fact based on the mod's assertion.

Are you really going to compare "being content with a modkill" of a

most probably

pro town player to

being content to vote

an

most probably

pro town player? (Note, YOU said he's most probably pro-town, I NEVER took that position, and I'm not taking that position now.)

[Zachrulez]

BTW I'm not going to play further before the mod respond.

And I'm totally ready to tank it if replacement is not found.

Honestly, I am pissed off that night lasted two weeks, and this modkill announcement is something that has brought me very close to just flat out asking for replacement from this game myself. (But the modkill threat guarentees that doing such a thing would result in me being modkilled...)

Frankly, to keep the game in night for two weeks, increasing the chance of MORE people flaking, and then to re-open the game and threaten modkills on everyone who hasn't posted by Monday is flat out offensive.

[Zachrulez]

Is this thread always so inactive? There's plenty to talk about even while waiting for replacements.

Quit hiding, pablo. You've had plenty of time to respond. Let's have it.

Generally. My interest in the game has been low from the start mainly because of this.

[Zachrulez]

@Pablo: In a game of this size, I would wager a guess that we have 2-3 scum in the game.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right now, my gut feeling is that Spring and Ecto/Setael are scum.

I was in the process of re-reading the game to see if the evidence fit my feeling.

Spring quickly tried to turn the game into a lurker hunt and that's why I voted her. Basically, her action was a trigger for my vote.

Now I just have to motivate myself to read the game and see if it confirms or changes my gut feeling.

[Zachrulez]

@Beyond_Birthday, Springlullaby, and Zachrulez:
Of Pablo & Setael, which one is scummiest to you?

Read 519.

Views are subject to change once I re-read the game.

[Zachrulez]

To back up my gut feeling, I've had a quick skim through of the game.

I noticed that a lot was made about what Nuwen called my fluffy exchange with Spring, that came to be part of her scum pairing theory.

I also noticed that before that happened, Spring and Ecto were actually squabbling quite a bit. Their squabbling seemed to come to quite the peaceful conclusion around page 6... and since then... nothing.

I smell a fake fight.

It was that bad feeling that I just couldn't quite put my finger on until I had a re-read of the game and some better insight onto what was going on.

And now Seteal makes a big case against Pablo. But the most striking thing about the case isn't actually anything that's in it against Pablo, it's the fact that she has me 4th on her scumlist, stating that she definitely sees the possibility of me being paired with Spring as scum.

So my theory at this point in time is that after Setael gets her Pablo mislynch, her next likely move was going to be to argue my guilt by association. Pushing for MY lynch, and not Spring's, where with 8 people left today, a mislynch tomorrow almost certainly means the end of the game for town.

And so my vote stays right where it is, on Spring.

[Zachrulez]

Okay Zach, so if Setael is after a mislynch, how does that incriminate Spring? Or, are you arguing Spring with Setael? If so, how would you clear yourself with Spring's mafia association (I use this as, since your voting her, I assume you think Spring is mafia.)?

I'm more convinced that Spring is scum than I am Setael. I think there's a good chance they are scum together though.

I can't clear myself, that's the point. That's why I suspect them.

I'm less interested in clearing myself than I am lynching scum.

[Zachrulez]

Okay Zach, so if Setael is after a mislynch, how does that incriminate Spring? Or, are you arguing Spring with Setael? If so, how would you clear yourself with Spring's mafia association (I use this as, since your voting her, I assume you think Spring is mafia.)?

I'm more convinced that Spring is scum than I am Setael. I think there's a good chance they are scum together though.

I can't clear myself, that's the point. That's why I suspect them.

I'm less interested in clearing myself than I am lynching scum.

It occurs to me that a better way to say this is that I am more interested in lynching scum than I am clearing myself... either way, I'm trying to say the same thing.

[Zachrulez]

Zach - why is nothing striking about my pablo case? I feel like you're trying to wave it away with a flick of your wrist. Do you disagree with the scumminess I pointed out? Do you think all the scummy things I listed can be explained away with "I was lazy."?

Your last post is full of fail. Feels like a gambit to prevent me from ever pressuring you. If I do you can yell "I called it! Look she's going after me and not spring!" My suspicion of pablo is independent of spring's play anyway, so I don't really see how you're drawing your conclusions.

Those who have listed me as possible scum - please provide logical reasoning or evidence of some kind. The only one who made an attempt was zach with his ecto/sprng fake fight theory (an argument that was, ironically, applied to him re: the "ask nicer" debacle.) so I guess if I was ecto I could say "touché" but as it is I just say "Meh."

I will look at Pablo's actions myself as I see fit. He hasn't really been all that high on my scumlist all game, and your big case on him isn't going to suddenly change that.

Since you did find a lot worth mentioning about him, and there's a chance, however small that I might be wrong about you and you might actually be town. I'll give the case a look, reread the game, and form my own opinion of Pablo.

I'm not trying to wave it away with a flick of a wrist as much as I'm not all that willing to simply take your opinion as gospel.

[Zachrulez]

Also another thing to be aware of is that there are 8 players left.

If there are in fact 3 scum, we are in lylo.

[Zachrulez]

Beyond_Birthday

What do you think of Spring's sudden desire to lurker hunt given that the fact that the dangerous situation that the town is in may not immediately have been known?

Keep in mind here that if she is scum, and Sipylus/Looker is innocent, (and she is aware of this.) it would be a potentially winning play.

[Zachrulez]

Zach - why is nothing striking about my pablo case? I feel like you're trying to wave it away with a flick of your wrist. Do you disagree with the scumminess I pointed out? Do you think all the scummy things I listed can be explained away with "I was lazy."?

Your last post is full of fail. Feels like a gambit to prevent me from ever pressuring you. If I do you can yell "I called it! Look she's going after me and not spring!" My suspicion of pablo is independent of spring's play anyway, so I don't really see how you're drawing your conclusions.

Those who have listed me as possible scum - please provide logical reasoning or evidence of some kind. The only one who made an attempt was zach with his ecto/sprng fake fight theory (an argument that was, ironically, applied to him re: the "ask nicer" debacle.) so I guess if I was ecto I could say "touché" but as it is I just say "Meh."

I will look at Pablo's actions myself as I see fit.

He hasn't really been all that high on my scumlist all game, and your big case on him isn't going to suddenly change that.

Since you did find a lot worth mentioning about him, and there's a chance, however small that I might be wrong about you and you might actually be town. I'll give the case a look, reread the game, and form my own opinion of Pablo.

I'm not trying to wave it away with a flick of a wrist as much as I'm not all that willing to simply take your opinion as gospel.

Ok... I lied. I decided to give your case another look, and actually checked his posts to verify the things you pointed out...

Wow...

He responds to this by pointing out that Spring has pretty much done the same things.

So the question I have for you is why you consider Spring is much less scummy than Pablo? I don't really see much that has set their play apart other than their personalities.

But yeah... I think Pablo's going to have to give us a better defense than "Spring did it too."

I also think him saying that it's scummy to stir things up, and then blatantly avoiding stirring anything up is one thing that can't just be waived away by asserting lazy play...

Throwing suspicion on people who are voting on the bandwagon he's about to join looks pretty bad too.

Unvote, Vote: Pablo Molinero

This is definitely where the pressure should be right now.

And his responses better be damn good...

What a difference fully reading a case and analyzing a player makes...

[Zachrulez]

How are Spring's transgressions less forgivable?

[Zachrulez]

Maybe you could share this town analysis of Spring with us BB?

[Zachrulez]

Ok, that post you quoted is great and all, except that I don't see where you say she reads town... I see a lot of "could go either ways."

I had read that post... but if you had strongly asserted a town read on Spring, I wouldn't have asked you that question. (This analysis does not indicate a town read to me.)

[Zachrulez]

While reading through this game to see if I wanted to replace in, the thought that continued to run through my head is

why is everyone giving Zachrulez a free pass

. From where I'm sitting, he's tremendously obvscummy.

Oh this ought to be good.

1) Ectomancer calling him out on his random vote. It's not reasoning that I've ever seen before, but it makes sense.

Whatever

2) He posts a lot, but his posts are one-dimensional. After voting Zer0phe4r, he doesn't look at any other conversation, instead basically taunting the Zer0 until the conversation started to move to someone else, at which point he gave a very weak "eh haven't been paying attention; don't see springlullaby as anything but scummy right now" (199)

Zero was mostly unresponsive to my repeated attempts to get him to actually do anything other than active lurk and say we didn't have anything to go off of. Nevermind the fact that I said I was catching up on the reading when I posted that. I usually comment on current events, and then go into the meat of what happened throughout the game. (The stuff that isn't new.)

3) Post 201. Nuwen shies away from the Zer0 wagon because she feels it's scum-motivated. Zach pointedly replies "How do you know?". She had already answered the question in the very words she quoted! But beyond that, why insist that everyone on the wagon was Town (implicitly validating himself)? Even if you feel your reasons are valid, to say that there are likely No Mafia on the wagon implies inside knowledge.
This later comes into play in 270.

If you don't know whether scum are on the wagon or not... PLEASE stop assuming. If you do know... then you ARE scum.

Obviously this goes the other way, doesn't it? If you know there are no scum on the wagon, then you're scum (and by extension lying, since you're on the wagon ). Moreover, seeing who placed scummy votes is what we call "scumhunting". Discouraging it by demanding PROOF or KNOWLEDGE - concrete things that are anathema to the concept of Mafia - is very, very scummy.

Not that I ever said there was or wasn't mafia on the wagon. I guess I never really ever did a good job communicating my position on this subject, but I didn't really want to presume either way. It tends to lead to day 2s where you only suspect the people on the bandwagon if you presume it was scum driven. (Can you honestly say that scum have never just let the town lynch themselves?)

4) Post 202. BLATANT dodge of a question that makes me want to slap someone (any volunteers?). Rather than answer the question, he bogs it down into semantics and meaningless words. Later on, I'm having a really hard time grasping the argument in 207 that springlullaby was LYING about her interest in lynching Zer0 when she was more interested in JereIC. It seems contrived.

You can argue

[JereIC's]

case is bad. You can argue that him believing you are scum based on whether or not Zero is scum is just downright bad play, but I can't really see how you can argue that it's blatantly scummy.

Lining up lynches. k, done

Which lynch? I thought Spring was reaching on JereIC. I didn't find him scummy, that doesn't somehow mean I thought he made good points against Spring, just that I didn't think it was scummy. For the record, I thought her attack of him was.

5) In justifying the Zer0 wagon in (214), Zach points to his earlier wall and implies "this is all the evidence I need". Zach's (relevant) responses to whether recent events have done anything to change his sure-as-sure-can-be Zer0-scum reads were--

I don't like dismissing or pegging terrible play as bad town. Do we really want to risk someone acting out this role as a defense when they are scum by tolerating such horrible play?

I can see your point about the wagon, but it hasn't resulted in a speedlynch, and with the deadline being extended, a lynch on Zero doesn't really seem easily forthcoming now.

Both of these are mockeries of reason.
The first one is irrelevant because of meta - if I, for instance, decided to play like Zer0, I would get speedlynched almost immediately. A better example is tubby216, who for several months after he joined was a dead ringer for a nübcake, and as a result people cut him a TON of slack. Except he can't do that now, because tubby was ALSO scum in almost every game I've seen him in and many people have been burned from basically ignoring him (myself included). Besides, most people don't TRY to play like Empking; it's a vital Town skill to read newbTown and an important Mafia skill to stop people from dubbing people newbTown.
The second one just makes no sense. "The wagon grew really easily, sure, but it's not going to grow any more because someone said something, so it probably wasn't scum-motivated." Um, what? Somehow your line of conversation went from Zer0 being rushed by scum (scumhunting) to Zer0 getting lynched regardless of his alignment (not scumhunting).

This is a matter of me feeling that giving this defense (of Zero) any weight is just asking to let him completely get away with being scum in games, by playing just like this... and having a game pointed out where he was town where he played like this so that he could just coast right along to newb town looking victory. I'm not quite experienced enough yet to see all the tiny nuances that would tell me one way or another here... so I figure lynching him is safer from my perspective because I found him scummy.

6)

Let me get this straight... you are defending his play as newbie play, in a non newbie game? This is not a newbie game, if it was, then I MIGHT listen to this bullshit. Worse than that is that you try to argue that he's town based on an appeal to emotion. Wonderful, trying to put shit logic on what is already a logical fallacy.

Way to drive that lynch home!
FACT: Not every Newbie plays in a Newbie game!
FACT: Not everyone who has played in a Newbie game acts like an experienced player!
FACT: Not being interested in working with deciphering a newbie's alignment, instead choosing to essentially policy lynch them is a textbook example of scum picking up the easy lynch!

They should.

Sadly True.

Eh, you've basically started your argument with the conclusion about my role. I deciphered his alignment using my own means... and I did it incorrectly.

7)

Also another thought I had...

You call Zero's wagon easy, but vote for Zwet?

They're both active lurkers, and both seem like easy bandwagons.

It... just... seems... hyp-o-cri-ti-cal.

Straw man. Read mfh 263.

You're going to have to explain this one better to me.

8) Very weak point, but 341 and 359 are the sorts of thing I would say as Mafia. And then slap myself for, but whatever.

Thanks for the tips... I'll make sure to keep my eye out for posts like that from you. Don't presume I would hypothetically play as mafia the same way as you though please.

9) 381. Pushes two unpopular wagons without actually backing one with a vote. I suspect you would have hammered D2 if that idiot hadn't done so for you.

Maybe, I was thinking about it, but I really don't know what I would have done. Would have been nice if he actually DIDN'T so that you could know for sure and not just speculate...

10) 399 just reeks of being awkward and seems to betray that you were actually worried about zwet being a Jester (who is almost always considered scum, ftr). And again, you push the zwet lynch with your vote squarely in your pocket.

My vote was in my pocket largely because I was trying to determine whether or not scum would be as obvious as he had... or if he was in the same camp as Zero and just bad town.

So yeah. Obvious scumplay here.

Vote: Zachrulez

(L-4)

Mini 667

You declared Charter obvscum.

I'm aware of that game cause sotty7 is my wife.

Anyway, maybe it's not exactly fair to bring up that game, but I hope it gives you something to think about.

And the other people, just to round it out.

Beyond_Birthday is a total psychopath. But that's normal for him.
Anyway, B_B has a rather sizeable train of conveniently dead people pointing to him, given the vote/death analysis. One interesting thing I noticed is that every time B_B takes offense to something Zach says, within two posts Zach is back to Extremely

Good-Looking

Town. Similarly, if you look at basically any time in D1 when B_B and Zachrulez posted near each other, it's about the same subjects and usually takes the same positions (Zer0 is worth voting, not backing down from Zer0, JereIC's case on springlullaby is solid, Zer0 is getting everyone's attention again, etc.) This isn't buddying, this is collaboration.

I think you might be half right here. I think he was role fishing when he asked me how I could clear myself of my association with spring. (529)

Based on how the Zach-B_B conglomerate has treated springlullaby, I'm somewhat hesitant to call her scum. Plus there's the whole RAGEquit thing. But other than that, I'm really not sure what to make of her play. So, I choose to waffle on her and say I have other, better targets for today.

Hopefully you will at least CONSIDER the possibility that at least one of us is arguing her scum as town.

In related news, Archon's goofiness may get old very quickly if it's not supplemented with info.

Pablo Molinero is easily confused with lurkerscum, with only 25 posts to his credit - most of them dispensible 2-liners. This is probably for a good reason, namely that confusion is not involved. Noticing that he stops pressuring zwet at around the same time B_B does, and emptily threatens to vote Zer0 after B_B does so (for the second time).

Ectomancer is immune to suspicion, in large part because of his avatar. Were it not for his avatar, I would

tell him "Cheer Up, Emo Kid!"

not really have any major feelings either way about him. His manner of playing with others' accusations, such as springlullaby's at the beginning of the game, sounds like streetwise Town. Iunno, if I didn't like my scumpicks so much I'd feel compelled to read more into him.
I arbitrarily declare Setael Town because he replaced in and saw more or less the same things I did. Ohhhhhhh look at that, I'm telling everyone who my scumpartners are inthread [/spyrexsarcasm]

WolfBlitzer -> hascow - No opinion. Waiting for him to finish his summary so he can realize that the people he's commented on most are all dead.

Looker - Who? Not enough to say much. Thus, a Very Important Opinion-Shaping Question:

@Looker:

Why Setael?

Nothing to add here really.

Miscellaneous: The arguing at the start of D3 looks cheesy to me. Seriously, throwing your votes around at LyLo without solid suspicions? You people are either bolder than I ever would be or know that nothing bad will come of it. Plus the whole modkill discussion bites (bited... bit... ugh, conjugating irregular vulgarities). I'd wager at most two of B_B, Zach, and springlullaby are scum based on this by itself, but not all three.

tl;dr Zachrulez, Beyond_Birthday, and Pablo Molinero are the scumteam. You're welcome. Cash only, please.

You're horribly wrong on me, but I see scope in the other two. If they turn out to be scum and it gets me hypothetically lynched in some way that won't cause the town to lose I wouldn't really mind that much.

[Zachrulez]

Okay Zach, so if Setael is after a mislynch, how does that incriminate Spring? Or, are you arguing Spring with Setael? If so, how would you clear yourself with Spring's mafia association (I use this as, since your voting her, I assume you think Spring is mafia.)?

I'm more convinced that Spring is scum than I am Setael. I think there's a good chance they are scum together though.

I can't clear myself, that's the point. That's why I suspect them.

I'm less interested in clearing myself than I am lynching scum.

Flawless. Zach isn't scum.

So, this moves on to his case on Spring which isn't bad:

Unvote (was I voting? Too lazy to look); Vote Springlullaby

I am going to look into Spring's play day 1, yesterday, and going to contemplate on Spring's play today. I like Zach very much right now, his percent just got cut in half actually.

Before my next post:

We're in "mylo" Mislynch and lose.

Lylo=lynch OR lose. ... unless you mean it is lynch and lose, which isn't necessarily true.

I personally think both these phrases are stupid, but I see it often enough to know to what it is referring.

After reading 564, I exploded into laughter.

[Zachrulez]

Bottom line: My opinion hasn't changed. Further arguing along these lines probably won't get it to change, frankly; and in the interest of interest (mine, yours, and others') I'd rather ask who you would rather replace yourself with in my scumteam of you, B_B, and P.Mo. People generally don't read wallposts unless they have to, anyway, so I wouldn't consider it pro-Town to turn this into a Wall War. And besides, didn't you say that you were more interested in lynching scum than clearing yourself?

3 things here.

1. I thought it was pretty apparent that my top suspects were Spring (Who I was voting for before Pablo.) Beyond Birthday, and Pablo. Not that you'd notice since you've gone out of your way to tell me how I've apparently been thinking and acting and strategizing as hyposcum...

2. In retrospect, the wagon on Zero was probably scum driven. (Well duh, my top suspects were on that wagon.) I just love how I apparently argued that the wagon wasn't scum driven, simply because I challenged the assertion that it wasn't for a sure thing. I just love arguments that are made presuming I knew Zero's alignment at a point in the game before it was known. MAYBE I DIDN'T AND THINKING HE WAS SCUM I PRESUMED THAT SCUM WOULDN'T ACTUALLY VOTE FOR HIM. It's not like people were calling the wagon scum ridden and trying to put as much distance as they could from the lynch before it actually went through. (Take a guess at who those people were.)

3. Oh lord, retaliating your text walls with text walls of my own is not pro town?... well it's not like that's hypocritical in the least since you hit me with 2 text walls of your own. (Note my responses to your text wall were generally pretty short and to the point, and it's you own typing in the quotes that makes my response look so lengthy. But whatever. I try to keep my text wall posts to a minimum anyway.)

Yeah... I'm frustrated.

[Zachrulez]

I've spent a few posts simply defending myself from Vi, and continuing to do that probably ain't going to get us anywhere.

I'm going to be relatively busy over the next few days, but as time allows, I'll be doing an analysis of Beyond_Birthday's play. (I've been debating whether or not I should actually be voting him over Pablo)

Then probably a general look at my other suspects before I decide what to do.

[Zachrulez]

I would have to say so.

The main reason I voted her earlier in the day was that I was alarmed that at the sudden desire to lurker hunt in a lylo situation.

The mass modkill discussion stuff was a complete mess, and to be fair, something we shouldn't have even had to consider as a possibility. (Mods shouldn't be modkilling over replacing, but since this mod saw fit to have night last 2 weeks, neither the game, nor arguing with the mod about it were high priorities for me...)

[Zachrulez]

Okay, we're in a mislynch and lose situation. Would it be better to nolynch?
I'm considering that we're at a point where 3/8 people are probably mafia. Therefore, about half the town is mafia. I'm thinking tomorrow, assuming only one kill, 3/7 is slightly better odds and holds the same consequences for mislynch as we have today. From my perspective, this makes sense, and I understand that mafia theory on the site typically claims no lynching is a bad move for town, but mathematically, I think it can only help. (Unless mafia decide to no kill, but I doubt they gain anything from a no lynch.)

I hadn't actually thought about the possibility of a no lynch.

I don't really see how it's going to help us though. The way I see it, no lynching is only going to further dilute the town's voting power and increase the scum's influence on getting a mislynch.

The whole argument of narrowing the field is kinda ridiculous anyway as the scum are likely going to kill the person that town considers least likely to be scum anyway.

So... I think I'd prefer that there be a lynch, even if it's me.

[Zachrulez]

From the looks of Beyond's play today he spent the beginning of the day suspicious of Pablo, but not suspicious enough to vote. I guess the feeling is that Pablo's been lazy through the game like him.

He jumps around on suspicions a bit. Seeming to think Spring is scummy enough for a vote one second, and then not scum the next. This leads to an interesting situation where Beyond responds to my 530 by voting for Spring, then doing an analysis of Spring and unvoting her. (Shouldn't you have done the analysis FIRST?)

Something similar to this happened on day 1, where Beyond started by going after Zero, changing his vote to Spring, and then doing his turnaround and once again voting for Zero.

I am finding it strange how beyond constantly finds himself aimed at Spring, but when the time comes to actually back up a case, back to the popular bandwagon. On day 1 this was Zero. On day 3, with the strength, size and veracity of Vi's case against me, he suddenly decides to adapt to the replacement and find me scummy despite the fact that he practically declared me town earlier.

At this point, I'm feeling a Pablo/Beyond team quite strongly... and I wouldn't be surprised if someone weird that I haven't seriously suspected was scum with them.

I'd take a lynch of either Pablo or Beyond today. (Still feeling slightly better about a Pablo lynch, mainly because knowing I'm town and presuming Setael is as well, I have to wonder why Pablo wouldn't have been run up by scum yet...)

Other recent observations: Beyond seems to feel that I'm the top scum candidate (564) as per his most recent list that I'm on the top of, but apparently not strongly enough to risk pushing my lynch over proposing a no lynch. (582) (Does he know I'll flip town?)

When that idea doesn't fly, he starts pushing the theory that MAYBE the lurkers are scum. (588)

I see a lot of digesting of what is posted from Beyond, and then a general regurgitation of the most recently posted thoughts and Beyond tends to try to adapt to what is the fashionable topic of discussion at the particular point in time.

[Zachrulez]

Vi, why should I not vote for you?
Scum can sometimes be some of the most posting people, and you certainly have posted allot.

FOS: Setael, for not posting for almost a week.

So you have threatened a vote on an active player while FOSing one for the opposite reason?

Isn't that a tad contradictory?

[Zachrulez]

'Hate to say this to you after the niceties, but

No one vote Pablo yet, at least until Cow catches up.

One thing's certain, though - I would NOT advocate anyone else voting for P. Molinero until hascow gets caught up (I'm literally waiting until the Cow comes home)

You placed Pablo at L-1.

I would highly encourage anyone with the Town win condition who is currently voting P. Molinero (B_B, Zach, Setael, Archon) to temporarily unvote.

Done.

Unvote:

[Zachrulez]

Also to note, Archon replaced Spring, who placed Zwet at lynch -1 on day 2.

[Zachrulez]

Zach- What do you think of Setael's play after his initial case against me? Seems like he's content to sit back and let the machine he set up against me run its course instead of probing further. And can you explain your opinion that we HAVE to have a lynch today, even if it's you?

I'm not really sure what you're looking for with Setael. Your only real defense to her case is that you've been playing lazy, and she doesn't buy that. If you're asking whether or not I think her case against you is scummy, no, I don't think it is.

The question about lynching is simple. Lynching is preferable to no lynching. Lynching me is preferable to no lynching. That is independent of the fact that out of all the possible lynch candidates, I would desire my own lynch the least, that goes without saying. I'm pretty sure we've gone over why lynching is preferable to no lynching anyway...

[Zachrulez]

I would understand the suspicion against myself if it had gone FoS, but no vote, from my presumed scumbuddies, but that ain't happening. No deflection of focus, it's solely on me at this moment. (not "woe is me" just stating fact) Zach's unvote makes me pause in my opinion about him, since we're at presumed lylo.

Possibility 1) Bussing. (Yes, this is a possibility)
Possibility 2) I'm wrong about your scumbuddies.
Possibility 3) You're not scum, contrary to all appearances.

Vi- Do you still think zach and B-B are scum as well?

I'm not sure any more.

tbqh the lynch I

really

want right now is Looker. Not even newbies play like that.

And can you explain your opinion that we HAVE to have a lynch today, even if it's you?

...

I'm reading Looker in isolation right now.

And tapping my head about Archon's recent move.

[Zachrulez]

I'm reading Looker in isolation right now.

And tapping my head about Archon's recent move.

Yes! Tell me what you think!

I've been reading you and I think you're really cool, but you're really smart, which makes me think you're scum that really knows what you're doing. My scum readings really don't mount up to much in my opinion because I always sum up the person's playstyle and personality instead of what they've actually posted and the probability of the mod giving them a certain role.

In short, it's hard.

Wait, wait, no, no it's not...! (another jokey-joke, sorry folks)

If I had to give you a number, I'd say you'd have a 36.333...% chance of being scum; however, I don't have to give you a number so I'll just say I think you're town right now. BUT I DON'T KNOW! Maybe you're just a nice friggin guy...!

I want to know why you suspected me and Setael.

I saw you vote for her, but I never saw any reasoning from you about why you thought either of us were scum.

I know you've unvoted now. But I still want the reasoning.

[Zachrulez]

I don't think you're scum because I haven't read anything to imply such - meaning, I've read nothing where you've done or said anything that could appear to be scum-motivated if you understand the term. As far as Setael, I voted her because I was replacing in and she had no votes on her and wasn't voting anyone. She looked uninvolved, kind of like I was, and so I involved her. Simultaneously, I involved myself, now I'm in the game. It's stupid, but it's what I always do when replacing into a game with a good bit of pages.

Yeah, but your first few posts of the game consisted as follows.

hmm...odd...i was kind of feeling a setael n zach, but i guess that's the benefit of other opinions. i'll go back and do some more reading.

Okay Zach, so if Setael is after a mislynch, how does that incriminate Spring? Or, are you arguing Spring with Setael? If so, how would you clear yourself with Spring's mafia association (I use this as, since your voting her, I assume you think Spring is mafia.)?

I'm more convinced that Spring is scum than I am Setael. I think there's a good chance they are scum together though.

I can't clear myself, that's the point. That's why I suspect them.

I'm less interested in clearing myself than I am lynching scum.

Nice catch. But anyway, still reading and still feeling Setael more than Spring. Coming with some substance later on, until then

vote: Setael

You assert that you believed me and Setael scum in the first quote, and then in the second you felt convinced enough to vote for Setael.

The reason this is a topic of discussion for me now is that you assert now that the vote was simply a move to pressure a player who wasn't very active in the game.

Can you give me some insight into what you were thinking in these posts? From what I read there seems to be underlying reasons for your suspicions and your votes... but from what you have asserted to me, you claim this is not the case?

Am I just mistaken when I see unstated reasons in your first few posts?

[Zachrulez]

And the vote on Has falls into the same theory of play?

[Zachrulez]

the vote on any of you to be honest because i've been kind of stretched lately trying to deal with so much and the fact that this isn't my only game. not to give excuses or anything because i can handle it, im just explaining it for you.

I'm playing in multiple games too.

What needs to be kept in mind right now is that we're pretty much in lylo, and one vote could really be key in breaking this game for the scum.

You have only placed the first vote on people at the moment (from what I've seen), so these are votes that can be more easily forgiven, but certainly will be something you want to keep heavily in mind before you place a vote on someone who already has votes on them.

Also would appreciate thoughts you have on the game and specifically your thoughts on who you think is likely to be scum.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Archon

I really HATE that lynch -1 vote on Pablo the more I think about it.

I hate the explanation for the action as well.

I have looked at Looker's play, and consequently Looker's meta, and his actions don't look too far off what the norm is for him. A lot of his votes haven't made a lot of sense and his playing style could probably be best described as dumb... but when you really look at it, his votes has been generally harmless in that he was the first one on Setael and Has.

Archon's play on the other hand is extremely risky if newb town, and downright calculating as scum. Taking in those two possibilities, what do you think the lynch -1 vote was?

Further, based on the fact that Spring cast a vote on Sipylus when going on a "lurker hunt" I find it unlikely that Archon and Looker are scum together. One of them maybe, but not both. Archon strikes me as newb scum. (Coupled with the fact that I have been uncomfortable with Spring's play for the entire game.)

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I saw zach's post. I reallt don't have any comments. it's not that I have no counter-reasonings,

I just don't feel he is a threat to me.

its one vote so far. if more people voted for me, I would then start to retort.

You can ask me questions though. I'm always happy to answer them

If that isn't gloating, I don't know what is.

[Zachrulez]

You say I'm either calculating, or newb. I ask you to take a look at this, and see if it dosen't ping newb readings. http://www.allposters.com/View_HighZoom ... w=20&ch=20

continue to read my posts. I assure you they are not that of a calculating scum.

I assure you, townspeople, I am not scum.

That's an ongoing game that you're not dead in.

Which means... what exactly?

yes, Im editing the website he quoted and repalcing it with something more fun. carry on. Moo

[Zachrulez]

In a game where town Zero and Zwet were lynched. I'd like to see a better case against Looker then him being stupid or a circumstantial argument about him not reading the game because he knows everyone's alignment.

The one thing I've seen that sets Archon and Looker apart is the fact that Archon deliberately placed Pablo at lynch -1, and Looker did not.

I'm tired of lynching solely on stupidity. I see an extremely scummy action on Archon's part, and my gut tells me that it's the move of newb scum.

[Zachrulez]

I can't take it anymore. he is too damn annoying.

Vote; Looker

So are we just going to ignore the fact that Archon once again places a player at lynch -1?

Archon is the lynch, open your eyes people.

[Zachrulez]

of course. which is my reasoning. If looker was scum, there would be no way that he would ever attract this much atention to himself. and, as you stated, we are at a lylo. meaning that looker would not be a good choice. all the reasonings behind him are about the way that he acts like a noob. do we really want to lynch a noob, instead of someone else?

So you argue Looker is not scum, but now you VOTE him?

You need to be lynched... now.

[Zachrulez]

I would also urge anyone on the looker wagon that is town, to unvote in light of 672.

[Zachrulez]

what the hell?

I'm

not scum! Really wanting to put a vote on Archon.

@Archon: Are you scum? If so, I'm puttin a vote on you because I don't wanna die

What do you expect him to do? Say yes?

[Zachrulez]

what the hell?

I'm

not scum! Really wanting to put a vote on Archon.

@Archon: Are you scum? If so, I'm puttin a vote on you because I don't wanna die

Yes. I'm the freaking Godfather [/sarcasm]

This?

[Zachrulez]

How far along are you?

[Zachrulez]

Well if you make it through page 20, you will be on day 3 at least should you chose to play forward.

[Zachrulez]

POST 687 IS A SCUM CLAIM. EVEN IF IT IS A "JOKE". If you want me to explain my strong feelings about this, I can. I don't mind hammering out of the blue seeing this sort of thing.

Please do.

I don't get how it's a scum claim. Maybe an explanation will help me see why it is. (I find Archon scummy anyway regardless.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach seems way too stubborn for town to me. He doesn't seem to be able to adjust his thoughts when people bring up new things, when town should be open to seeing things they don't expect that can change their minds.

I'm just stubborn as a charming personality trait. Adjusting thoughts and being open to seeing things aren't what I would call "town traits" as I would believe scum capable of playing that way just as easily as town in order to not be noticed.

[Zachrulez]

ok, here we go:

what the hell?

I'm

not scum! Really wanting to put a vote on Archon.

@Archon: Are you scum? If so, I'm puttin a vote on you because I don't wanna die

Yes. I'm the freaking Godfather [/sarcasm]

Anyway, he says "I'm the Godfather". Now, although he put a /sarcasm tag at the end, I'm not paying so much attention to that.
The way I see mafia, everyone subconsciously

wants

to tell you their alignment. This is how we get scumtells and such, because people want to subtly tell you this in different ways.
Now, to scumclaims. Based on the above, scum want to tell you that they're scum, but they try not to in normal play because that would hurt them(obviously).
However, when they're frustrated and "joking", because the scum want to tell you that they're scum, they will do it, even if it is said in a "joking" manner. Does that make sense?

I think I get that. You believe that was Archon telling us he was scum, and trying to hide it behind a joke so that we wouldn't actually act on it?

[Zachrulez]

*Facepalm*

Looker continues to impress...

[Zachrulez]

My position is unchanged.

Looker = Mentally challenged.

Archon = Mentally challenged scum.

[Zachrulez]

Are you friggin serious, do you know what's going on, Mr. "No Town Reason"? Wtf? Great way to 'sguise a vote

Only scum want modkills, because that lowers the number of people they have to get rid of themselves. Town wants replacements because that helps the game.

Read 739, he can't differentiate between modkill and lynch...

[Zachrulez]

And it convinces me even more that we should lynch Archon today.

[Zachrulez]

I did meta Archon. I haven't found a single game where he's dead, and without having some indication of how he plays under a certain alignment, his meta is currently useless.

If this changes, let me know, and I'll search his name again, and look it over. (I have actually checked multiple times to find a game he's dead in.)

[Zachrulez]

And for the record, my top 3 at the moment are.

1. Archon

2. Has (His modkill misrep of looker shot him up.)

3. Beyond Birthday

I'd be happy with any of the 3 being lynched, but the order I list is the order I would prefer.

[Zachrulez]

Actually, looking through Archon's other games, I've kind of lost track of where he went from mentally challenged to mentally challenged scum.

I have looked at Looker's play, and consequently Looker's meta, and his actions don't look too far off what the norm is for him.

Yet the same provision wasn't made for Archon?

Archon's play on the other hand is extremely risky if newb town, and downright calculating as scum. Taking in those two possibilities, what do you think the lynch -1 vote was?

I can tell you the answer I got from process of elimination...

Ok... I lied. I decided to give your case another look, and actually checked his posts to verify the things you pointed out...

Wow...

This doesn't bode well to me for some reason.

Okay, sideshow's over; I'm going back to my original ideas.

1- Springlullaby - now Archon

2- Beyond Birthday

3- Skillit- madam.fobs.hero- now Vi

4- Pablo Molinero

5- PerArdua-WolfBlitzer- now Hasdgfas

6- Zachrulez

7- Sipylus-replaced by Looker

8- Ectomancer -replaced by Setael

Vote: Pablo Molinero

(L-4)

This bothers me for two reasons:

1. You make all attacks against Zach and then resume voting Pablo without renewing reason. Your logic progresses:
Hm... I thought Zac was scum.
I reviewed his recent actions to be scummy. Zac looks like scum.
I think Pablo could be Zac's partner.
Vote Pablo.

What the hell? That's kind of a round about turning point.

Also: Okay, Vi has claimed to have read other Archon games and meta defensed, right?
Looker, I know, always plays in this annoying as hell fashion.

Therefore: I will do a quick meta check on both players. Based on Vi's progression, I might vote Zac. Vi is his possible partner based on the illogical follow through of Vi's post. (Sounds like distancing with a threat to vote tomorrow. If there is no tomorrow though, then he just needs to frame Pablo for win?* Working idea.)

Now going to meta check Archon to verify. Looker *is* verified.

751 Beyond.

Yeah, Vi's vote is flying all over the place. I don't understand how he draws the conclusion that I'm once again scum and then votes Pablo.

I'm just about ready to pull my hair out.

IF THERE IS TOWN META ON ARCHON, PLEASE TELL ME SO THAT I CAN RECHECK AND CONSIDER IT.

Otherwise my focus ain't changing.

[Zachrulez]

IF THERE IS TOWN META ON ARCHON, PLEASE TELL ME SO THAT I CAN RECHECK AND CONSIDER IT.

No TOWN meta. You know this. But I don't see much that's different from his other games. Most people not named tubby216 aren't scum in every game. I'm willing to take a chance. And since that's a major reason people see him as scummy, I'm moving on.

Ok, so there are other games where he's arbitrarily put people at lynch -1 for weak reasons? (Bonus points for doing it in lylo.) There are other games where he claims scum? (Going with Has' reasoning there. I've sarcastically claimed scum before, (Not on this site.) and gotten away with it.)

1. You make all attacks against Zach and then resume voting Pablo without renewing reason. Your logic progresses:
Hm... I thought Zac was scum.
I reviewed his recent actions to be scummy. Zac looks like scum.
I think Pablo could be Zac's partner.
Vote Pablo.

What the hell? That's kind of a round about turning point.

I believe many people were more interested in a P. Molinero lynch not too long ago. The quotes were there largely because I was trying to find the case on Archon, which was mostly propagated by Zach.

They're both scum; the order doesn't much matter. I simply picked the one that other people (particularly my pick for Town, Setael) would like more.

I was actually in another game with Pablo while this one was going on where he was acting very similarly to the way he acted here. He was NKed by scum in that game. (Was vanilla town.)

So yeah, I pause with him now.

Vi is his possible partner based on the illogical follow through of Vi's post. (Sounds like distancing with a threat to vote tomorrow. If there is no tomorrow though, then he just needs to frame Pablo for win?* Working idea.)

What kind of LyLo distancing involves me replacing in and seriously trying to blow Zach to little bits?
Further, if me and Zach were scum, there would be no reason to fight each other right now vs. hammering Archon's n00by rear end into the ground, which would be absurdly easy to do and almost unsportsmanlike not to do.

We're definitely not scum together. Based on what I know for sure (That I am town.) if one of us is scum, it's gotta be you. I personally think that we're both town though.

[Zachrulez]

This is why unlimited dayvigs should be considered a normal role. *sigh*

Waiting on the cow again (a little more patiently this time).

You

do

know that you can vote a player to be modkilled, right...?

Even Vi knew what he was trying to say here.

You

do

know that you can vote a player to be modkilled, right...?

I believe that would be called a "lynch".

You turned it into this.

This is why unlimited dayvigs should be considered a normal role. *sigh*

Waiting on the cow again (a little more patiently this time).

You

do

know that you can vote a player to be modkilled, right...

Why would you even

suggest

this? there is no town reason at all for suggesting modkill.

unvote, vote: looker

Are you friggin serious, do you know what's going on, Mr. "No Town Reason"? Wtf? Great way to 'sguise a vote

Only scum want modkills, because that lowers the number of people they have to get rid of themselves. Town wants replacements because that helps the game.

Word fail clarified below.

You

do

know that you can vote a player to be modkilled, right...?

I believe that would be called a "lynch".

Gah, i guess ur rite...

So yeah, that would be the misrep.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wait, I just realized I just said basically the same things P. Molinero put out a few days ago. Perhaps PM-scum isn't as likely as I thought?

Well, may as well bow to the dictates of the public~

Unvote: Pablo Molinero
Vote: Zachrulez

(L-4)

Well I guess since you're suspicions have shifted just about everywhere it makes sense that you'd eventually come back to me...

Shifting P. Molinero out, the scumteam congeals to Zach, B_B, and Looker. (Notice the chain of events after Archon puts Looker to L-1 in 668 - B_B stalls instead of hammering, and Zach pushes an Archon lynch instead of hammering. I find it highly doubtful that two out of three of Zach, B_B, and Looker are Town, nor do I swallow how both of them are on the Archon wagon after holding up on Looker.) Hascow is the designated replacement on the list for independent reasons.

Did it occur to you that if Beyond is scum and I am not, that one of the things he may be trying to do is play up this perceived link between us that you seem to keep seeing? There isn't much I can do about him echoing my play other than voting him, and I'm not quite that suspicious of him compared to other players at the moment.

I didn't hammer looker because I don't think he's scum, that wouldn't really be smart of me to go and lose the game by playing against my feelings now would it?

Also, keep in mind that I unvoted pablo at your urging, since Archon's lynch -1 vote seemed to freak you out so much. (Perhaps he's YOUR scumbuddy...)

[Zachrulez]

Did it occur to you that if Beyond is scum and I am not, that one of the things he may be trying to do is play up this perceived link between us that you seem to keep seeing? There isn't much I can do about him echoing my play other than voting him,

and I'm not quite that suspicious of him compared to other players at the moment.

So you're trying to convince me that B_B is buddying to you like crazy, yet you're not that suspicious of him?

Ok, read the bold, and refer to post 753.

[Zachrulez]

Did it occur to you that if Beyond is scum and I am not, that one of the things he may be trying to do is play up this perceived link between us that you seem to keep seeing? There isn't much I can do about him echoing my play other than voting him,

and I'm not quite that suspicious of him compared to other players at the moment.

So you're trying to convince me that B_B is buddying to you like crazy, yet you're not that suspicious of him?

Ok, read the bold, and refer to post 753.

Done.
I would think that the difference between the charges on B_B and hascow is a bit more significant in the other direction than you're suggesting, but it's your life.

So now that the cow has responded, does anything change?

Talking of the response: My response to Looker was more aligned with common sense than knowing what he was talking about. I'm not sure if Looker actually meant that we could try voting to kick someone out of the game; but since that would defeat the purpose of lynching, I shot it down.
Considering "modkill" and "lynch" are two decidedly different terms in Mafia, I don't think the bovine response to Looker's post was unwarranted.

Noted.

For the record I had thought about things before your post and Beyond is 2nd on my list and Has is now 3rd.

I just didn't bother to update the list.

[Zachrulez]

Great response, B_B. "I'm Town, I've been following along with everyone else for the sake of the Town, and you have no case" is extremely compelling. [/sarcasm]

In that case, let me lay out why I think you're scummy.

Your posts are, for the most part, unnecessary. I think if I removed your posts from the game, nothing of value would be lost - I would be able to understand what other people were saying just as well. You get really into the theoretical argument D1, but you don't bother with voting or doing anything other than playing Discussion Orderly. You say that you have no issue with voting people (149), but that's one thing you do noticeably seldom - and when you do, it just happens to be joining other votes.

As you explain below, the above is probably why Beyond has managed to escape mention from me for the most part up till now. It's a symptom of trying to stay under the radar.

Now notice the similarities between these posts.

Zach 126 - B_B 127
Zach 139 - B_B 149 (notice the same wording at the beginning of the post, and how they both suggest the wagon is not worth pushing)
B_B 197 - Zach 199
Both just happened to push Zer0 at the same times
Both just happened to push s.lullaby at the same times
Both just happened to go back to Zer0 at similar times (with B_B's wording re: Zer0's scumminess changing in midpost from useless to sinister)

Not that you talk about each other much. You credited him with your reasons for the Zer0 wagon twice, and then mentioned him in these places--
"As a side note, I like's Zach's recent posts..." - 242
"Zachrulez - Slightly town" - 282 (no explanation given)
"I wouldn't upset the moderator if I were you... " - 509
"However, the idea Zach presented of Setael/Ecto + Spring was interesting." - 526
"Flawless. Zach isn't scum. " - 538

--and Zach mentions you even less--

"364: Points out BB's reluctance to the Zero wagon." - 381
--ha, not really.
Notice that all of this is before D3, during which you were basically the only people playing anyway, and even then it's not like you said much to each other, let alone express suspicion of each other (until I replaced in).

There's also my original gripe about you--

Anyway, B_B has a rather sizeable train of conveniently dead people pointing to him, given the vote/death analysis. One interesting thing I noticed is that every time B_B takes offense to something Zach says, within two posts Zach is back to Extremely Good-Looking Town. Similarly, if you look at basically any time in D1 when B_B and Zachrulez posted near each other, it's about the same subjects and usually takes the same positions (Zer0 is worth voting, not backing down from Zer0, JereIC's case on springlullaby is solid, Zer0 is getting everyone's attention again, etc.) This isn't buddying, this is collaboration.

(...)

Miscellaneous: The arguing at the start of D3 looks cheesy to me. Seriously, throwing your votes around at LyLo without solid suspicions? You people are either bolder than I ever would be or know that nothing bad will come of it. Plus the whole modkill discussion bites (bited... bit... ugh, conjugating irregular vulgarities). I'd wager at most two of B_B, Zach, and springlullaby are scum based on this by itself, but not all three.

You agreed with this assessment of your play, and only now started to suggest Zach-scum. This sauce is weak, and Zach 565 drove it home.

On top of all of the above, did you notice that 752 was a basic agreement with you for going back to your original theories, and that Beyond basically threw an assertion out there that he'd vote me based on meta checks of Archon and Looker.

Once you change your vote to him. He turns from agreeing to you to becoming suspicious of you. Suddenly, I'm looking town again.

Holy shit, can someone's suspicious just happen to change so much simply in reaction to one's own desire for survival?

I see a lot of digesting of what is posted from Beyond, and then a general regurgitation of the most recently posted thoughts and Beyond tends to try to adapt to what is the fashionable topic of discussion at the particular point in time.

So why isn't Zach terribly interested in voting B_B again?

Fuck it.

Unvote, Vote: Beyond_Birthday

[Zachrulez]

@Vi: By the same logic, you should be voting Zach... as we are "copying" each other in collaboration, neh?

No, you got it wrong. He laid out a very clear chronology of you following my lead. There's no "copying." I can not recall a single instance where I've followed

you

@Zac: Convenient you'd follow Vi the moment he's taken his attention off of you.

This is a no win situation for me. People are inevitably going to see this as a scummy effort on my part to look townie as scum by "bussing" you. I couldn't give a damn.

You basically admit that you've had similar thoughts and then wind up voting me mostly because Vi thinks it is bad (scummy?) of you to not do so with your published thoughts.

You've established a clear pattern. You're suspicious of me when I pressure you, and you think I'm town when I pressure everyone else. I'm disappointed in myself that I didn't vote you much sooner in the game.

@ Post 775:

Therefore, if Zac and I am scum, Looker is scum. However, I disagree with BB scum = Looker scum from a third person point of view.

And since I know I am town, and from your logic, I think Zac scum=Looker scum. Therefore: It's time to lynch Zac.

I also think that if Zach is scum, Vi is likely scum based on his numerous cases that can, collectively, conclude Zach is scum, and then he votes someone else. I'm the flavor of the day! (Woo hoo)

Oh look at the guy who's SURE there's 3 scum giving cred to the looker scum theory! Hey, you know what's funny, if you and looker ARE scum, and you only need one little mislynch, then this can be seen as the most transparent attempt ever to get that one last desperate lynch that you need to win.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, this refers to his case and vote for me.

[Zachrulez]

Archon, do you really not have any suspicions of anyone that are strong enough to vote on?

You've found 2 bandwagons worthy of being placed at lynch -1, but have done little to no scumhunting yourself.

What gives?

[Zachrulez]

Oh...

Looking at the previous page, I noticed Archon's vote is still on Looker.

I didn't even notice because I haven't seen any pressure from Archon to Looker... or at least anything that I would classify as such.

[Zachrulez]

I'm sorry, I missed the part where Pablo tells us who he thinks the scum are.

Are there reasons for suspecting Vi? Are there reasons to believe Beyond is NOT scum?

Anyone else you suspect?

Would be helpful...

[Zachrulez]

A) I've said that looking at potential-pairs for the most part muddles things and makes for an easier time lynching someone innocent, so I'm only looking for one person right now.

I have to disagree. In this situation it will be a bit more difficult for scum to quickly pile onto a player if they cast a vote that goes against their suspicions and end up raising our eyebrows with a vote.

Notice that Archon is in an alarmingly easy position to get away with this since he has failed to list any strong suspicions of who he thinks is scum.

[Zachrulez]

... Does that mean I should think about hammering him?

[Zachrulez]

I suppose a far more important question is...

Do you TRUST me to hammer him?

[Zachrulez]

I'm considering it, I am going to look through the thread at the case against Looker.

[Zachrulez]

Hey P. Molinero. If B_B flips scum, Looker gets autolynched. What's keeping you from switching?

The above, as P. Molinero pointed out, has is that Vi hasn't done anything to prove I'm scummy.

Vi: Hm...okay, that didn't work, let's try you!
[period of time]
This didn't work, so YOU'RE SCUM!
[another period of time]
Okay, okay, fine. That means YOUR SCUM!
[another period of time]
Okay, none of those worked, SO BB'S OBVIOUS SCUM! Can anyone find a reason that he isn't scum?

This is funny coming from you, because your suspicions have shifted as much as Vi's have if not more, and they have never been very strong until now.

Okay, the key issue with his argument is that he didn't ask or consider the opposite question: Can anyone find a reason BB ISN'T town?

Well? What am I supposed to do if my play style is inherently scummy or if my general actions are considered "cautious?"

WHAT?! Your playstyle is inherently scummy? How is that even a defense?

I didn't hammer looker because I'm not so certain he's scum. ANd even if I was, reckless all out assault play at lylo will NOT secure victory. As a town, we must be calm and logical. Vi, on the other hand, doesn't even care anymore. If he's town aligned, he's playing recklessly and and without even the slightest concern for the town. I, on the other hand, currently think Vi is scum. Whether in jest or not, Vi is kind of close to just buying votes from Looker and making deals with Pablo that, when I flip town, will never be fulfilled cause Vi will win.

And I think he just won mine by you once again stating with certainty that we're at lylo.

So far, Vi has just attacked people relentlessly, and his lack of case against me is pathetic. The other person here who I would think to actual find issue with this, Zach, has recently posted like a lapdog to Vi, thus making him an exceptionally likely scum partner to Vi.

It could be that I find most of his attacks on me a fair minded effort to find scum.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where Pablo tells us who he thinks the scum are.

Are there reasons for suspecting Vi? Are there reasons to believe Beyond is NOT scum?

Why do you refuse to consider Vi-scum a possibility?

Well you never really seemed to feel he was scum very strongly when he wasn't coming after you. Then he came after you, then you thought he was scum. Then I came after you, then you thought I was scum.

Why do you refuse to consider BB is town? Do you realize that just because you can't find something that blantantly screams "I'm TOWN" in a person's play style that it doesn't necessarily condemn them to being scum, or are you so naive that you're actually going to follow Vi to your (death if your town, or victory if your scum.) Based on my opinion that you do, in fact, have a brain, I'd say the latter is far more likely. That, and you know my scum meta doesn't match my play here. You're mafia in my book too.

META DEFENSE ALERT! That's not scummy at all.

Yeah... I'm dying to know why you won't hammer looker.

So I'm going to do that now.

Vote: Looker

*Turns away and covers eyes*

[Zachrulez]

oh, did I not unvote?

I hate that rule.

Unvote, Vote: Looker

[Zachrulez]

Just checking in.

Interested in what Beyond has to say.

[Zachrulez]

unvote vote: Archon

FOS Vi & Zach

*Points finger at post*

Before I say what I think this post means, may I have everyone else's thoughts of the above?

I have no thoughts, it's desperate scum WIFOMing.

[Zachrulez]

So... Archon's scum?

I mean that's basically what you're trying to tell me.

Unless you're going to push this little nugget to try to say I'm scum.

[Zachrulez]

Your reasoning is weak.

Looker was PRETENDING to scumhunt when he posted that list, and the only people who know whether or not there was scum in that list or not... are scum.

And thus while town is stuck not knowing whether there were any scum in Looker's list, the scum DO know, and can use that information to their advantage.

[Zachrulez]

Also: ...Fuck...you do realize you could have lost us the game if your wrong.

Would you care to explain why you made this statement matter of factly as if you knew I was town?

[Zachrulez]

However, he used the typical "blue" for town, I'd assume the "real" mafia is red... so either SK OR second mafia or second anti town group... Again, I may be reading too much into this, but it is my first reaction to something like this after reading other games.

This fails hard.

So the towns gather together and decides that our dear mayor Grimmy needs to die. However, since this is not a viable option at this time, they decide to turn their agressions on Looker.

and it is a good thing too, because at the sun was setting on the horizon, Looker appeared to be getting more agressive...angrier....and hairier?

The villagers quickly react in time to put this WEREWOLF down with a bunch of silver utensils they had lying around the main hall.

Somewhere, a howl of anger is heard, and the villagers know that this may be their worst night yet.

Looker- Werewolf- was lynched day 3

We have now enetered the Night phase, and all players with night actions should PM me as soon as possible to get the next day started. Day will begin next thursday at Noon, est.

grimmy

So did the real mafia HOWL in response to Looker getting lynched?

[Zachrulez]

Beyond_Birthday.

Why shouldn't I vote to lynch you where you stand?

[Zachrulez]

Voting this early in lylo is not protown.

So you win a spot on my suspicion list along with Archon.

Can't contain your excitement because you're so close to winning the game as scum?

[Zachrulez]

Well... if you're town, one more vote allows scum to pile on... but don't let me tell you how to play the game.

It wouldn't surprise me at this point if Archon was scum.

[Zachrulez]

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

[Zachrulez]

Voting this early in lylo

is not protown.

So you win a spot on my suspicion list along with Archon.

Can't contain your excitement because you're so close to winning the game as scum?

:eyebrows:

I guess saying voting this early in a lylo day would have gotten my point across better.

Oh well.

[Zachrulez]

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

what? Then what did you mean by this?

Your reasoning is weak.

Looker was PRETENDING to scumhunt

when he posted that list, and the only people who know whether or not there was scum in that list or not... are scum.

And thus while town is stuck not knowing whether there were any scum in Looker's list, the scum DO know, and can use that information to their advantage.

I think the bolded makes it pretty clear that I know Looker flipped scum and didn't miss it.

[Zachrulez]

A HOWL! ONE! SINGULAR! Two mafia teams=2 people each, right? Unless its a sk lover with a town aligned lover or something... So, given this line of thought, what do you think?

I think you might be overthinking it.

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

...and here you flip back to super townie looking zach. I must admit, you're starting to piss me off.

Archon scum? Hm... I think the odds of Archon+Looker scum group are remarkably low. And I believe you agreed. (I'd have to check my facts. Will do later.) If you did, that means you agreed with my theory about two scum groups when I said it, and you just blundered by still suspecting Archon despite Looker flipping scum. That, or you think Looker isn't scum.

I will come back to this tomorrow, consider the logic, and I'll find the progression.

I thought Archon was scum yesterday, and it never depended on Looker's flip. Why do you think the odds of Archon + Looker scum are low?

I'd also like to know who you think the scum are please.

[Zachrulez]

I am inclined to agree with Pablo. It makes more sense that we're up against a 3 man scumteam.

Also, I think Archon's latching in regards to me has to do with him being scum and wanting to get me lynched.

As for no lynching. I hate no lynching, it's really just the kind of player I am more than anything. There's probably merits to considering this as an option though.

[Zachrulez]

I thought Archon was scum yesterday, and it never depended on Looker's flip. Why do you think the odds of Archon + Looker scum are low?

I'd also like to know who you think the scum are please.

Ah. In that case, either Vi or myself said it. If me, I guess I'm just really hoping that it isn't true. Furthermore Zach, do you think anyone is more likely to be scum with Looker? Also, of the people lynched, if you DON'T think that there are two scum groups, do you think two person scum team OR an anti miller? If so, who is the likely anti-miller?

I just think in 12 people... hm... well, to me it seems virtually impossible, hence, I subscribed to the two man scum team. (I mentally eliminated two mafia groups (not cult or other anti town group), sk, and Vig reason for our existence since there hasn't been a two kill night.

What do you think?

This doesn't answer my question.

Also you never answered this one...

Beyond_Birthday.

Why shouldn't I vote to lynch you where you stand?

[Zachrulez]

Official unofficial votecount;
Sateal-(Archon)
Zach-(sateal)
B-B-(hasdgfas, Pablo Molinero)
I guess it takes four to lynch

----------

Whyt did you two jump on the BB bandwagon so fast?

Are you opposed to the idea of lynching Beyond Birthday?

[Zachrulez]

Here, I'll put it in question form so it's harder to blow off. Why did you hammer before anyone had a chance to check the thread? Why did you not ask for a claim? Why did you not wait for looker even to check the thread and respond to being -1? What was the rush? And why did you ask vie's
permission like that?

I believe a townie in that situation (lylo; player that hasn't claimed or even talked much recently is at -1) would be more cautious and not nearly so impatient to hammer. You voted as though you knew he was scum and there was no chance you were wrong to be hammering. Maybe I'm sounding like a broken record but I think you saw no possibility of saving your wolf buddy so you hammered to gain town points.

What say you?

Well in this situation, this townie saw the fact that Looker was twice placed at lynch -1 and wasn't quick hammered, and ended up eventually seeing things from Vi's point of view about Looker unavoidably being scum if either me or Beyond Birthday were scum. (And Beyond Birthday was unwilling to hammer.)

I didn't really see it as being impatient to hammer, it was moreso conceding to what was the inevitable conclusion by Vi.

I suppose I could have asked for a claim, but I don't think anyone who's been lynched has actually been asked for a claim up to this point. Also looking back I can't see how that would have any value since if someone who was town was facing an impending lynch, it's likely they would be hammered quite quickly by scum anyway.

I probably should have been thinking about a lot of those things before I hammered, but that just kinda goes down to my playing style, I more or less just try not to overthink things much. I hate 2nd guessing. I guess it is something I am going to have to learn.

I guess I can see how that might look scummy in retrospect, but I'm nothing more than a townie who took a shot at hammering Looker conceding the logic that scum surely would have hammered him long before that point had he been town.

I don't expect you to believe me, so you can think what you want there.

I will point out that it's a tad faulty of you to say that my points against Beyond_Birthday are scummy. You can't ignore logic on one hand, and accept it on the other.

[Zachrulez]

Or maybe the one thing preventing me from actually casting a 3rd vote on you would be how risky and stupid it might be if by some miracle you're town despite all your actions and a scum (who is NOT my partner) is already on the wagon with another one looming over you looking to hammer.

[Zachrulez]

Also yeah... are you trying to say it's scummy that I'm actually not casting the 3rd vote because I know how scummy it would be... but now if I cast the 3rd vote on you, that will be scummy?

Ummm... yeah, I'm seeing a lot of bussing accusations against me, and very little effort to actually build a substantial case against me.

You and Setael are both guilty of this. You've started the day under the presumption that I bussed Looker and am scum trying to win town points, and you're basically making cases that are crappy in reality because they are really nothing more than a house of cards built on a preconceived conclusion.

[Zachrulez]

The two who have voted both seem to just be reacting to zach's attacks.

Zach has nothing to do with my opinion; it's mostly based on B-B's actions yesterday and his heavy connection to looker. That said, I should put my money where my mouth is instead of just talking about it; I think the best townie play right now is:

unvote, vote: No Lynch

I hate no lynching, but it's the best play.

Vote: No lynch

[Zachrulez]

I'm going to

unvote:

for now until we're all satisfied that the day has been discussed adequately.

[Zachrulez]

I'm going to

unvote:

for now until we're all satisfied that the day has been discussed adequately.

This feels a bit off to me, like you're trying to look town by promoting discussion.

Eh... that's a million kinds of weak as a point.

[Zachrulez]

Also my top 3 at this point would be Beyond Birthday, Has, and Archon.

Beyond is #1 for me. I am finding it difficult to reconcile his actions today as being even remotely town, even bad town.

Has is #2 I see a lot of sitting back, very little interest in any of the discussion, and him just generally looking like he's just trying to fan the flames.

Archon actually falls down to #3. Not a big fan of his play, but unlike Beyond, he could just be bad town.

Pablo's probably my biggest town read actually, and Seteal's case on me is actually pretty fair, and I don't really have anything beyond mild speculation on her. If my response to her vote indicated that I was hugely suspicious of her, that's really not the case, it was really more of an overreaction to her vote. (Something I do often and need to eliminate from my play.)

I'm definitely going to be advocating for Beyond Birthday's lynch tomorrow. I don't expect anything to change my opinion overnight.

[Zachrulez]

Feel free to continue fanning the paranoia of people already suspicious of me with weak points (That also have a simple town explanation.) rather than making any compelling arguments.

[Zachrulez]

What exactly is silly about what I did?

[Zachrulez]

What exactly is silly about what I did?

People who prolong the day to "promote discussion" are often scum who are going off of the mindset "longer days = good" when that's not always the case.

Do you have anything to back this up as a reliable scumtell or is it just often/sometimes?

How does my vote prolong the day anyway? You can vote for a no lynch at any time, and Setael has also expressed interest in it.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: No Lynch

Think what you want about why I'm voting no lynch again now. It's the move I ultimately support.

[Zachrulez]

If you don't think we're both scum, why in the hell are you voting for one of us and then changing your mind?

Shouldn't you be trying to figure out which one of us is more likely to be town, and lynching the person you really think is more likely to be scum.

By the way, this doesn't qualify as reasoning me better.

"BB, however, is trying to confuse the town with all this setup speculation and such. I'm happy lynching either one of them, but right now, Zach seems like a better choice."

That's just you guessing, and your weak points are making excuses for changing your vote.

I submit that you don't really care about which one of us is REALLY more likely to be scum, I submit that you just want a particular lynch because it furthers your win condition.

I think you can say whoops in your mind now.

[Zachrulez]

I'm at a loss for understanding Beyond's reasoning for voting for Setael in 954.

I still think we're best off no lynching.

[Zachrulez]

Are you sure enough to lynch him now and forfeit any potential information we can get during the night if we no lynch?

I don't think you're seeing the whole picture.

There's more we can potentially learn from no lynching then just eliminating an NKed suspect.

[Zachrulez]

Great, so the collective conscensus on Looker is "I dunno"?

Town, rank these three from most scum / lynchable to least:
BB
Arch
Zach

Also my top 3 at this point would be Beyond Birthday, Has, and Archon.

Beyond is #1 for me. I am finding it difficult to reconcile his actions today as being even remotely town, even bad town.

Has is #2 I see a lot of sitting back, very little interest in any of the discussion, and him just generally looking like he's just trying to fan the flames.

Archon actually falls down to #3. Not a big fan of his play, but unlike Beyond, he could just be bad town.

Pablo's probably my biggest town read actually, and Seteal's case on me is actually pretty fair, and I don't really have anything beyond mild speculation on her. If my response to her vote indicated that I was hugely suspicious of her, that's really not the case, it was really more of an overreaction to her vote. (Something I do often and need to eliminate from my play.)

I'm definitely going to be advocating for Beyond Birthday's lynch tomorrow. I don't expect anything to change my opinion overnight.

[Zachrulez]

I see a few possibilities here:

1) zach and archon are scum. Archon has gotten quiet since getting called out for "clearing" zach and I can definitely see this possibility

2) beyond and hasd are the last 2 scums and they'd much rather get a mislynch today (zach is the current target) rather than no lynch.

3) a combination I'm not seeing (i.e. Pablo is fooling us all and his partner is any of the above). I'm not certain of anything enough to be willing to lynch today. Any way I slice it, I'd rather no lynch today and improve our odds for tomorrow.

vote: no lynch

You do realize that if you weren't scum, then having a no lynch does nothing but get you killed by your own theory.

Unvote; Vote Satael

Obvious:

Zach
Archon
Has(?)
Pablo/Setael (Just because I am town and I know lynching me is losing.)
BB

[Zachrulez]

@zach: why so quiet? Is there a reason for the lack of content and participation? I feel like you're just sitting back waiting for someone else to do something. Also, what's so weird about my no lynch reasoning? It makes perfect sense to me.

Am I participating any less than anyone else at this point? I haven't really noticed.

Anyway, I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said your no lynch reasoning was weird. (Go have a look at where my vote is.)

[Zachrulez]

Well right now I'm waiting for a response from Beyond Birthday.

If there's anything specific you want me to address, let me know.

Other than that, I don't really see much of anything worth posting about right now.

[Zachrulez]

I pretty much feel the same way about the fact that we're at a stalemate, that's probably a good argument for a no lynch really, as well as all the previously mentioned ones.

[Zachrulez]

Also, Archon's shot up my scum list. He's pretty close to a tie with Beyond after 984.

I'm dead serious. He's not posting any relevant game content, and that's really the bottom line.

[Zachrulez]

Zach is still my #1 (with archon the most likely buddy). Nothing he's done today has made me feel any better about that hammer. Gonna check the VC before I vote. I'm on my iPhone and can't look without losing this post.

To be honest, I don't think there's anything I'd be able to do from now to endgame that will make you feel any better about that hammer. I think you might be too focused on that hammer and less so on my overall play. (Unless you find my overall play scummy, in that case fair enough.)

[Zachrulez]

If I may ask you a question now.

You seemed pretty sure that Pablo was scum for a good portion of the last day phase, and I'm not sure exactly what changed your mind about him.

If you don't mind, I'm kinda curious about the thought process that changed your mind there.

[Zachrulez]

Well obviously, Setael, myself, and Archon are willing to no lynch.

I think you should hammer no lynch.

I don't understand at all with how uncertain you seem to be on everyone and the fact that everyone is pretty much a suspect for you (Casting aside how scummy I find that in and of itself.) how you can possibly oppose a no lynch.

Having one of us eliminated as a suspect certainly helps your uncertainty, and I don't see how you can justify lynching in a situation where we lose if we get it wrong, especially with the fact that eliminating a suspect in the face of all the uncertainty you seem to be experiencing can do nothing but help your scumhunting.

I just don't get why you're so adamantly against no lynching.

[Zachrulez]

I'd still like Setael to answer my inquiry from 989.

[Zachrulez]

Does anyone know what the vote count is?

[Zachrulez]

here's an

official

tally

Archon - 2 (Setael, Pablo)
No lynch - 2 (Zach, Archon)
Zach - 1 (Has)

With Beyond not voting.

That's what I got, does that sound right?

YOU ARE CORRECT YOUNG ONE. IT WILL STILL TAKE FOUR TO LYNCH, AND A DEADLINE IS STILL NOT NEEDED. YOU ARE ALL KEEPING THE GAME GOING NICELY.

GRIMMY
BEATEN BY RL LIKE I OWE IT MONEY

[Zachrulez]

First off:
Grimmy: funny.

Second: since my opinion hasn't been refuted, I must ask:

Zach, how do you defend your vote to nolynch still?

Also, I personally prefer a Zach lynch, so I'm not going to be voting Archon. I suppose I see your point, but I feel Archon is more unhelpful than scummy...

(And attacking Archon is like attacking pudding, so whatever.)

Unvote: Vote: Beyond Birthday

[Zachrulez]

My re-read, along with Seteal's 1002 where she is confused about Beyond and Pablo's opposition to no lynch... and Beyond's 1009, and Pablo's 1010, give me a bad feeling about supporting an Archon lynch.

At this point I see Beyond Birthday as almost certainly scum. I'm less sure about Archon. I also see the possibility that Pablo is paired with Beyond Birthday, one that I think has been pointed out before but has died off quietly toward the end of day 3, and for pretty much all of today.

I just have a bad feeling that this might be an attempt to talk us into making a sub optimal lynch. I think Beyond_Birthday is a far safer bet.

I keep reading him and I keep asking myself, how the hell can he possibly be town? There's just no way.

[Zachrulez]

My big two pairs are BB-Arch and Zach-Arch. Either way, Arch is the pivot point that's looking pretty awful right about now.

You sounded pretty sure of Beyond Birthday not even a page ago, what's changed?

[Zachrulez]

Also, we've been at this gradually plodding along for a while.

We can't seem to get enough support for no lynch. We seem to be having trouble getting agreement on who to lynch... and we're probably at lylo, or at least a mis-lynch or lose situation.

Would now be a good time to consider a massclaim?

[Zachrulez]

As for mass claim at this stage in the game, would that help us at all?

It might. I can't see how it could hurt. We're probably at lylo, most of us seem pretty uncertain. (Despite how sure you sound, your voting patterns tell a different story.) It might help make the picture a bit clearer.

[Zachrulez]

BB has shown the most logical resistance to the no lynch, where mafia-BB could have used it to NK me without a second thought. Arch, meanwhile, has meandered all over the place on the issue and ended up supporting it EVEN THOUGH it was pointed out that we'll likely lose a protown player. Arch's trying to hard to look town ("read me!"/looking at looker's final vote and FoS's, which we really can't take seriously) instead of finding the final 2 scum, meaning he has no leads because A) He isn't trying too hard. B) He is scum.

I want to hear from has, who has been legitimately away from the entire site since Weds. He gets back Fri-Sat, but I'd like to get something figured out sooner than later.

I just isoed Archon and he looks even worse than your case against him does Pablo. He actively defended looker, and he gloated about only having one vote against him in his 11th post of the game in iso in response to me.

Yeah...

Unvote: Vote: Archon

I hope I'm being paranoid about Beyond Birthday quick hammering him.

[Zachrulez]

Also to add to the above, I think that little stunt he pulled where he tried to "clear" me was a ploy to make me look like his scum buddy and get me lynched.

[Zachrulez]

At least I was tasty...

Go town!

[Zachrulez]

Told ya I was town Vi...

To the ending... wow. How'd we pull that one off?

[Zachrulez]

Told ya I was town Vi...

I said one of {Zachrulez, Beyond_Birthday}, so I was still right...ish. Sorta. Please?

Setael totally had me fooled... how I never asked myself why she was trying to derail Beyond's lynch at every turn... I will never know.

[Zachrulez]

Also I am wondering why I was nked.

I imagine that Setael and Beyond thought I was the other wolf, but I can't be sure.

[Zachrulez]

No kills by werewolves because of lurking?

[Zachrulez]

Well in retrospect, I should have seen the signs with you not being willing to lynch Beyond at all Setael.

In game though, I fully admit that you had me fooled, I really thought you were town.

You played a great game, it's a shame you didn't win because you deserved to. Bad luck there with the 2 scum team thing.

Should have joined Pablo when he voted for Beyond, at that point though I was starting to get paranoid that he was scum looking for any lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Thanks, Vi. It takes a little of the sting out to feel appreciated by someone. This game was incredibly frustrating for me. Most the night talk as me and beyond bickering. I wanted to wring his neck pretty much every second of every day. I was livid after his incredibly scummy hammer of archon and even more angry with his cocky reaction to me being mad about it. He said everything was working according to his plan. What plan? I don't think he even knew. I did not understand his play and I'm right there with zach in shock that the town let him live.

I thought looker had been an SK. Killed zach because there was no way he was going to let beyond get away with that archon hammer. I then thought zach had been a bomb when I died (since I sent in his night kill).

The main thing that threw me off is that every muni normal I've played had the standard setup. I think things have just changed since I used to play. 2 scum groups and no power roles in a mini normal? I guess so...

I'm sorry to hear that... but at least I was delicious.

If Beyond really does have Asbergers like he said in the game, that might explain why he was difficult to work with/communicate with.

It's a condition I also have, and I found his multiple scumteam theory on his rules explanation to be a load of crap for that very reason, because I never thought anything close to what he was thinking just because Looker's scum flip was in the color yellow.

It was a pleasure playing with you all. I hope to play with you guys again.

[Zachrulez]

Has, and Looker were both replacements on day 3, so I'm not sure they even know if the wolves sent kills on nights 1 and 2 or not.

[Zachrulez]

Given the activity level of Peradua, Wolfbliter, and Sipylus, I wouldn't be surprised if they never sent any kills due to lack of activity.

I imagine their night 3 kill was the same as yours, and then night 4 seems to have been you.

[Zachrulez]

We win! Yayzowr!

Yes, despite your self hammer which you did because it apparently exposed Springlullaby as scum. (And notice that she flipped town.)