Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[Zachrulez]

Maybe you could share this town analysis of Spring with us BB?

[Grimmy]

GREAT NEWS

We have our replacements.

Hasdqfas will be replacing Wolfblitzer (who replaced Perardua)

Vi will be replacing madam-fobs-hero (who replaced Skillit)

I sent a PM to Springy, to see where she stands with this game.

Grimmy
this game is JUST about back on track now

[hasdgfas]

Hello all.

Let me catch up in the next couple days and I should have a good post shortly

[Vi]

Confirming in.

A shame I missed Ectomancer. Not a shame that I missed zwetschenwasser.

[hasdgfas]

Grimmafia catch-up posts: Pages 1-8

Post 0 - Grimmy: A very....interesting first post. Zer0ph34r was town? I can't tell from this. I'm sure I'll find out.
Post 9 - BB: um, what?
Post 21 - zwet: ???
Post 23 - BB: either arbitrary or he had a reason for it. Not that many choices.
Post 26 - Nuwen: You ask ectomancer a question, and then vote him. What are you voting him for?
Post 30 - spring: so, why, then?
Post 33 - Jere: Ehh, I find looking at "jokes" and "random stage reasons" is a great way of finding scum. I don't like him saying "I want to see how zwet and nuwen respond" without saying anyhting.
Post 34 - Jere: Why so worried about a 4th vote?
Post 43 - Skillit: No comments on anything that's been said? I don't like that.
Post 54 - zwet: ..................... not at all. zwet, I think you need to be in about half the number of games you're in right now.
Post 56 - zer: Got anything else to say?
Post 57 - BB: It's not random at all, BB. Read his actual post where he explains he's suspicious of zwet. I don't like the last paragrah AT ALL. Giving an explanation for Skillit's horrid vote? Seems fishy to me.
Post 60 - Per: Wrong. Once ANYONE starts commenting on the game and what's already happened, the RVS is over. That could be first post or 4th page. I made a real vote in the 3rd post of the game once.
Post 64 - zwet: What are you saying at all?
Post 65 - zer: Please actually comment on the game.
Post 71 - zwet: that's a horrible explanation for that vote.
Post 77 - skillit: Got anything else to say?
Post 78 - Sipylus: Interesting. I do like looking at content v contentless posts, so this is rather interesting, but it's not about posts with content, it's about content quality, IMO.
Post 80 - Pablo: Is fishing for reactions when you do something strange good or bad for the town?
Post 84 - zer: ??? This is completely false. plenty of meaningful stufff has happened.
Post 86 - JereIC: I think it depends on how the speedlynch happens.
Post 90 - BB: I think saying "short days favor scum" is rather misleading, because you can have a very useful day that's also short.
Post 99 - BB: I also don't think long days are good for the town, it depends on what's gone on. Do we really need 5-10 extra pages of discussion once the town has decided whom they want to lynch?
Post 103 - zwet: IF YOU SAY "Interesting...." AT LEAST SAY WHAT IS INTERESTING AND WHY
Post 115 - zwet: I'm not sure I know what you mean by "Squeezing out of suspicion". Shouldn't everyone technically be trying to do that?
Post 133 - zwet: Too enthusiastic? What the heck?
Post 142 - zer: This is ridiculous. There's loads to go on.
Post 173 - zwet: I really don't like how you want others to give your reasons for you.
Post 176 - zer: Appeal to emotion much?
Post 190 - Nuwen: I really don't like this Chainsaw Defense of Zer. Looks like it's only there for townie brownie points.


This game confuses me, I'll say that right now. I can't catch up all at once.
I don't understand the people suspicious of spring.
Zer is acting really scummy and is either frustrated newb town or scum. I'm leaning scum.
Nuwen feels off to me as well for some reason.
Jere also is scummy to me. Nothing concrete on anyone else.

I'll catch up more soon.

[Grimmy]

One more replacement

Archon replaces Springlullaby.

We wish Springlullaby the best on her future endevours

Grimmanagement.

[Pablo Molinero]

Lovely. Who hasn't been replaced at this point?

[Grimmy]

Votes

Pablo Molinero(2 of 5)

Seteal
Zachrulez

Beyond Birthday (1 of 5)

Spring/Archeon

SpringLullaby/Archeon (1 of 5)

Beyond Birthday

Seteal (1 of 5)

Looker

Not voting: Hasdgfas, pablo, Vi

With 8 finally in the game and alive, its 5 to lynch

No deadline feasible as we have so many replacements.

Grimmy

[Beyond_Birthday]

Maybe you could share this town analysis of Spring with us BB?

Congratulations! You can't read!

Okay reread, gonna unvote: (and I skim, in depth reading isn't my thing.)

unvote

Alright, upon rereading:

Day 1: I dunno. She looks really town, but I can almost see scum playing this way. Hm... her confortability around the beginning looks very town, but it could be scum confidence that town wouldn't dare lynch anyone, and if they did, as per her argument, I, among others, would probably hang the offenders. So, hm... I see this as very "either way," but I get an overall vague town read.

Day 2: Her deflection of a rather weak, pathetic argument from Zwetchenwasser could truly go either way, but the play overall needs to be chalked up to town play there. I mean, look at it. She even keeps her focus on Nuwen "associating her name with [Ectomancer's]." It looks like very strong town play or superb scum play.

Day 3: I think this is a frustrated...whatever she is. I could see scum or town acting this way, and her comment (while voting me for a rather ridiculous reason) could be cover up for her OR genuine town play. (I read tones and such, but this could be a façade, I must admit.)

Although I feel her play today has been absolute crap, her record stands by her side, hence my unvote.

Still, I like Zach response. So, I'm going to be assuming scum out of...

Madame-fobs-hero
Looker
Setael
Wolfblitzer
Pablo Molinero

I'm king of thinking Wolf or Pablo is scum, but *if* I were to assume Spring is correct in her theory that unreplaced lurkers are scum, then that would leave:
Hero, Looker, and Setael as scum.

Among them, Setael has looked fairly protown (ie, Ecto has looked fairly protown) and leaves me no real reason to suspect him. Hero struck me funny, but for what reason, I can't recall. May have been an oddity and not scummy. I need to reread him and is formers. As for Looker: I don't think today's has been awkward or scummy in my view.

Which means: Maybe there is only one active mafia member and one or both of the lurkers are mafia with him (with only one kill, I'm guessing no serial killer). I can almost imagine the mafia member thinking he could win easily with two lurkers because they won't attract attention, but this is most definitely farfetched.

End of subject is:

I need opinions on these ideas. ITS HOW I FUNCTION, TOWN! HELP ME HELP YOU!! <--- is making fun of the town that seems pretty dead until replacements replace in.

(Welcome replacements.)

[Zachrulez]

Ok, that post you quoted is great and all, except that I don't see where you say she reads town... I see a lot of "could go either ways."

I had read that post... but if you had strongly asserted a town read on Spring, I wouldn't have asked you that question. (This analysis does not indicate a town read to me.)

[Archon]

Oh no... hasdgfas is here?
*swears under breath*

Well, Here I am... reading.

[Archon]

Unvote

Fear my short attention span!

Archon is here!

Talk in third person he does!

[Vi]

Okay, I think I'm ready. Behold the power of scientific investigation at work!

First, the usual vote/death analysis. (It would have been really, really nice if the mod kept his votes in the order they were made...)

(Replacement Table to lessen confusion:)
Sipylus -> Looker
Skillit -> mfh -> Me!
Ectomancer -> Satael
PerArdua -> WolfBlitzer -> Le Cow

Zer0phear

- 7 - Siplyus, Zachrulez,

zwetschenwasser

, WolfBlitzer, Beyond_Birthday, Pablo Molinero, springlullaby, Ectomancer

zwetschenwasser

- 6 - Ectomancer, Pablo Molinero, Beyond_Birthday,

Nuwen

, springlullaby,

zwetschenwasser

Both wagons: P. Molinero, Beyond_Birthday, springlullaby (now Archon), Ectomancer (now Satael)
One wagon: Sipylus (now Looker), Zachrulez, WolfBlitzer (now Cow)
Neither wagon: mfh (now Vi)

Unfortunately, I already know Vi's alignment. But nonetheless *wafts Townie vibes my way*

WIFOM MARKER GOES HERE

Possible implications for JereIC's death: Thought a power role; disagreed with the Zer0 wagon; was coming on to Beyond_Birthday rather much at the end of D1; was against springlullaby during the middle of D1
Possible implications for Nuwen's death: Thought a power role; brought up Zachrulez + springlullaby as a scumpair

------

While reading through this game to see if I wanted to replace in, the thought that continued to run through my head is

why is everyone giving Zachrulez a free pass

. From where I'm sitting, he's tremendously obvscummy.

1) Ectomancer calling him out on his random vote. It's not reasoning that I've ever seen before, but it makes sense.

2) He posts a lot, but his posts are one-dimensional. After voting Zer0phe4r, he doesn't look at any other conversation, instead basically taunting the Zer0 until the conversation started to move to someone else, at which point he gave a very weak "eh haven't been paying attention; don't see springlullaby as anything but scummy right now" (199)

3) Post 201. Nuwen shies away from the Zer0 wagon because she feels it's scum-motivated. Zach pointedly replies "How do you know?". She had already answered the question in the very words she quoted! But beyond that, why insist that everyone on the wagon was Town (implicitly validating himself)? Even if you feel your reasons are valid, to say that there are likely No Mafia on the wagon implies inside knowledge.
This later comes into play in 270.

If you don't know whether scum are on the wagon or not... PLEASE stop assuming. If you do know... then you ARE scum.

Obviously this goes the other way, doesn't it? If you know there are no scum on the wagon, then you're scum (and by extension lying, since you're on the wagon ). Moreover, seeing who placed scummy votes is what we call "scumhunting". Discouraging it by demanding PROOF or KNOWLEDGE - concrete things that are anathema to the concept of Mafia - is very, very scummy.

4) Post 202. BLATANT dodge of a question that makes me want to slap someone (any volunteers?). Rather than answer the question, he bogs it down into semantics and meaningless words. Later on, I'm having a really hard time grasping the argument in 207 that springlullaby was LYING about her interest in lynching Zer0 when she was more interested in JereIC. It seems contrived.

You can argue

[JereIC's]

case is bad. You can argue that him believing you are scum based on whether or not Zero is scum is just downright bad play, but I can't really see how you can argue that it's blatantly scummy.

Lining up lynches. k, done

5) In justifying the Zer0 wagon in (214), Zach points to his earlier wall and implies "this is all the evidence I need". Zach's (relevant) responses to whether recent events have done anything to change his sure-as-sure-can-be Zer0-scum reads were--

I don't like dismissing or pegging terrible play as bad town. Do we really want to risk someone acting out this role as a defense when they are scum by tolerating such horrible play?

I can see your point about the wagon, but it hasn't resulted in a speedlynch, and with the deadline being extended, a lynch on Zero doesn't really seem easily forthcoming now.

Both of these are mockeries of reason.
The first one is irrelevant because of meta - if I, for instance, decided to play like Zer0, I would get speedlynched almost immediately. A better example is tubby216, who for several months after he joined was a dead ringer for a nübcake, and as a result people cut him a TON of slack. Except he can't do that now, because tubby was ALSO scum in almost every game I've seen him in and many people have been burned from basically ignoring him (myself included). Besides, most people don't TRY to play like Empking; it's a vital Town skill to read newbTown and an important Mafia skill to stop people from dubbing people newbTown.
The second one just makes no sense. "The wagon grew really easily, sure, but it's not going to grow any more because someone said something, so it probably wasn't scum-motivated." Um, what? Somehow your line of conversation went from Zer0 being rushed by scum (scumhunting) to Zer0 getting lynched regardless of his alignment (not scumhunting).

6)

Let me get this straight... you are defending his play as newbie play, in a non newbie game? This is not a newbie game, if it was, then I MIGHT listen to this bullshit. Worse than that is that you try to argue that he's town based on an appeal to emotion. Wonderful, trying to put shit logic on what is already a logical fallacy.

Way to drive that lynch home!
FACT: Not every Newbie plays in a Newbie game!
FACT: Not everyone who has played in a Newbie game acts like an experienced player!
FACT: Not being interested in working with deciphering a newbie's alignment, instead choosing to essentially policy lynch them is a textbook example of scum picking up the easy lynch!

7)

Also another thought I had...

You call Zero's wagon easy, but vote for Zwet?

They're both active lurkers, and both seem like easy bandwagons.

It... just... seems... hyp-o-cri-ti-cal.

Straw man. Read mfh 263.

8) Very weak point, but 341 and 359 are the sorts of thing I would say as Mafia. And then slap myself for, but whatever.

9) 381. Pushes two unpopular wagons without actually backing one with a vote. I suspect you would have hammered D2 if that idiot hadn't done so for you.

10) 399 just reeks of being awkward and seems to betray that you were actually worried about zwet being a Jester (who is almost always considered scum, ftr). And again, you push the zwet lynch with your vote squarely in your pocket.

So yeah. Obvious scumplay here.

Vote: Zachrulez

(L-4)

-----

And the other people, just to round it out.

Beyond_Birthday is a total psychopath. But that's normal for him.
Anyway, B_B has a rather sizeable train of conveniently dead people pointing to him, given the vote/death analysis. One interesting thing I noticed is that every time B_B takes offense to something Zach says, within two posts Zach is back to Extremely

Good-Looking

Town. Similarly, if you look at basically any time in D1 when B_B and Zachrulez posted near each other, it's about the same subjects and usually takes the same positions (Zer0 is worth voting, not backing down from Zer0, JereIC's case on springlullaby is solid, Zer0 is getting everyone's attention again, etc.) This isn't buddying, this is collaboration.

Based on how the Zach-B_B conglomerate has treated springlullaby, I'm somewhat hesitant to call her scum. Plus there's the whole RAGEquit thing. But other than that, I'm really not sure what to make of her play. So, I choose to waffle on her and say I have other, better targets for today.
In related news, Archon's goofiness may get old very quickly if it's not supplemented with info.

Pablo Molinero is easily confused with lurkerscum, with only 25 posts to his credit - most of them dispensible 2-liners. This is probably for a good reason, namely that confusion is not involved. Noticing that he stops pressuring zwet at around the same time B_B does, and emptily threatens to vote Zer0 after B_B does so (for the second time).

Ectomancer is immune to suspicion, in large part because of his avatar. Were it not for his avatar, I would

tell him "Cheer Up, Emo Kid!"

not really have any major feelings either way about him. His manner of playing with others' accusations, such as springlullaby's at the beginning of the game, sounds like streetwise Town. Iunno, if I didn't like my scumpicks so much I'd feel compelled to read more into him.
I arbitrarily declare Setael Town because he replaced in and saw more or less the same things I did. Ohhhhhhh look at that, I'm telling everyone who my scumpartners are inthread [/spyrexsarcasm]

WolfBlitzer -> hascow - No opinion. Waiting for him to finish his summary so he can realize that the people he's commented on most are all dead.

Looker - Who? Not enough to say much. Thus, a Very Important Opinion-Shaping Question:

@Looker:

Why Setael?

-----

Miscellaneous: The arguing at the start of D3 looks cheesy to me. Seriously, throwing your votes around at LyLo without solid suspicions? You people are either bolder than I ever would be or know that nothing bad will come of it. Plus the whole modkill discussion bites (bited... bit... ugh, conjugating irregular vulgarities). I'd wager at most two of B_B, Zach, and springlullaby are scum based on this by itself, but not all three.

tl;dr Zachrulez, Beyond_Birthday, and Pablo Molinero are the scumteam. You're welcome. Cash only, please.

[Zachrulez]

While reading through this game to see if I wanted to replace in, the thought that continued to run through my head is

why is everyone giving Zachrulez a free pass

. From where I'm sitting, he's tremendously obvscummy.

Oh this ought to be good.

1) Ectomancer calling him out on his random vote. It's not reasoning that I've ever seen before, but it makes sense.

Whatever

2) He posts a lot, but his posts are one-dimensional. After voting Zer0phe4r, he doesn't look at any other conversation, instead basically taunting the Zer0 until the conversation started to move to someone else, at which point he gave a very weak "eh haven't been paying attention; don't see springlullaby as anything but scummy right now" (199)

Zero was mostly unresponsive to my repeated attempts to get him to actually do anything other than active lurk and say we didn't have anything to go off of. Nevermind the fact that I said I was catching up on the reading when I posted that. I usually comment on current events, and then go into the meat of what happened throughout the game. (The stuff that isn't new.)

3) Post 201. Nuwen shies away from the Zer0 wagon because she feels it's scum-motivated. Zach pointedly replies "How do you know?". She had already answered the question in the very words she quoted! But beyond that, why insist that everyone on the wagon was Town (implicitly validating himself)? Even if you feel your reasons are valid, to say that there are likely No Mafia on the wagon implies inside knowledge.
This later comes into play in 270.

If you don't know whether scum are on the wagon or not... PLEASE stop assuming. If you do know... then you ARE scum.

Obviously this goes the other way, doesn't it? If you know there are no scum on the wagon, then you're scum (and by extension lying, since you're on the wagon ). Moreover, seeing who placed scummy votes is what we call "scumhunting". Discouraging it by demanding PROOF or KNOWLEDGE - concrete things that are anathema to the concept of Mafia - is very, very scummy.

Not that I ever said there was or wasn't mafia on the wagon. I guess I never really ever did a good job communicating my position on this subject, but I didn't really want to presume either way. It tends to lead to day 2s where you only suspect the people on the bandwagon if you presume it was scum driven. (Can you honestly say that scum have never just let the town lynch themselves?)

4) Post 202. BLATANT dodge of a question that makes me want to slap someone (any volunteers?). Rather than answer the question, he bogs it down into semantics and meaningless words. Later on, I'm having a really hard time grasping the argument in 207 that springlullaby was LYING about her interest in lynching Zer0 when she was more interested in JereIC. It seems contrived.

You can argue

[JereIC's]

case is bad. You can argue that him believing you are scum based on whether or not Zero is scum is just downright bad play, but I can't really see how you can argue that it's blatantly scummy.

Lining up lynches. k, done

Which lynch? I thought Spring was reaching on JereIC. I didn't find him scummy, that doesn't somehow mean I thought he made good points against Spring, just that I didn't think it was scummy. For the record, I thought her attack of him was.

5) In justifying the Zer0 wagon in (214), Zach points to his earlier wall and implies "this is all the evidence I need". Zach's (relevant) responses to whether recent events have done anything to change his sure-as-sure-can-be Zer0-scum reads were--

I don't like dismissing or pegging terrible play as bad town. Do we really want to risk someone acting out this role as a defense when they are scum by tolerating such horrible play?

I can see your point about the wagon, but it hasn't resulted in a speedlynch, and with the deadline being extended, a lynch on Zero doesn't really seem easily forthcoming now.

Both of these are mockeries of reason.
The first one is irrelevant because of meta - if I, for instance, decided to play like Zer0, I would get speedlynched almost immediately. A better example is tubby216, who for several months after he joined was a dead ringer for a nübcake, and as a result people cut him a TON of slack. Except he can't do that now, because tubby was ALSO scum in almost every game I've seen him in and many people have been burned from basically ignoring him (myself included). Besides, most people don't TRY to play like Empking; it's a vital Town skill to read newbTown and an important Mafia skill to stop people from dubbing people newbTown.
The second one just makes no sense. "The wagon grew really easily, sure, but it's not going to grow any more because someone said something, so it probably wasn't scum-motivated." Um, what? Somehow your line of conversation went from Zer0 being rushed by scum (scumhunting) to Zer0 getting lynched regardless of his alignment (not scumhunting).

This is a matter of me feeling that giving this defense (of Zero) any weight is just asking to let him completely get away with being scum in games, by playing just like this... and having a game pointed out where he was town where he played like this so that he could just coast right along to newb town looking victory. I'm not quite experienced enough yet to see all the tiny nuances that would tell me one way or another here... so I figure lynching him is safer from my perspective because I found him scummy.

6)

Let me get this straight... you are defending his play as newbie play, in a non newbie game? This is not a newbie game, if it was, then I MIGHT listen to this bullshit. Worse than that is that you try to argue that he's town based on an appeal to emotion. Wonderful, trying to put shit logic on what is already a logical fallacy.

Way to drive that lynch home!
FACT: Not every Newbie plays in a Newbie game!
FACT: Not everyone who has played in a Newbie game acts like an experienced player!
FACT: Not being interested in working with deciphering a newbie's alignment, instead choosing to essentially policy lynch them is a textbook example of scum picking up the easy lynch!

They should.

Sadly True.

Eh, you've basically started your argument with the conclusion about my role. I deciphered his alignment using my own means... and I did it incorrectly.

7)

Also another thought I had...

You call Zero's wagon easy, but vote for Zwet?

They're both active lurkers, and both seem like easy bandwagons.

It... just... seems... hyp-o-cri-ti-cal.

Straw man. Read mfh 263.

You're going to have to explain this one better to me.

8) Very weak point, but 341 and 359 are the sorts of thing I would say as Mafia. And then slap myself for, but whatever.

Thanks for the tips... I'll make sure to keep my eye out for posts like that from you. Don't presume I would hypothetically play as mafia the same way as you though please.

9) 381. Pushes two unpopular wagons without actually backing one with a vote. I suspect you would have hammered D2 if that idiot hadn't done so for you.

Maybe, I was thinking about it, but I really don't know what I would have done. Would have been nice if he actually DIDN'T so that you could know for sure and not just speculate...

10) 399 just reeks of being awkward and seems to betray that you were actually worried about zwet being a Jester (who is almost always considered scum, ftr). And again, you push the zwet lynch with your vote squarely in your pocket.

My vote was in my pocket largely because I was trying to determine whether or not scum would be as obvious as he had... or if he was in the same camp as Zero and just bad town.

So yeah. Obvious scumplay here.

Vote: Zachrulez

(L-4)

Mini 667

You declared Charter obvscum.

I'm aware of that game cause sotty7 is my wife.

Anyway, maybe it's not exactly fair to bring up that game, but I hope it gives you something to think about.

And the other people, just to round it out.

Beyond_Birthday is a total psychopath. But that's normal for him.
Anyway, B_B has a rather sizeable train of conveniently dead people pointing to him, given the vote/death analysis. One interesting thing I noticed is that every time B_B takes offense to something Zach says, within two posts Zach is back to Extremely

Good-Looking

Town. Similarly, if you look at basically any time in D1 when B_B and Zachrulez posted near each other, it's about the same subjects and usually takes the same positions (Zer0 is worth voting, not backing down from Zer0, JereIC's case on springlullaby is solid, Zer0 is getting everyone's attention again, etc.) This isn't buddying, this is collaboration.

I think you might be half right here. I think he was role fishing when he asked me how I could clear myself of my association with spring. (529)

Based on how the Zach-B_B conglomerate has treated springlullaby, I'm somewhat hesitant to call her scum. Plus there's the whole RAGEquit thing. But other than that, I'm really not sure what to make of her play. So, I choose to waffle on her and say I have other, better targets for today.

Hopefully you will at least CONSIDER the possibility that at least one of us is arguing her scum as town.

In related news, Archon's goofiness may get old very quickly if it's not supplemented with info.

Pablo Molinero is easily confused with lurkerscum, with only 25 posts to his credit - most of them dispensible 2-liners. This is probably for a good reason, namely that confusion is not involved. Noticing that he stops pressuring zwet at around the same time B_B does, and emptily threatens to vote Zer0 after B_B does so (for the second time).

Ectomancer is immune to suspicion, in large part because of his avatar. Were it not for his avatar, I would

tell him "Cheer Up, Emo Kid!"

not really have any major feelings either way about him. His manner of playing with others' accusations, such as springlullaby's at the beginning of the game, sounds like streetwise Town. Iunno, if I didn't like my scumpicks so much I'd feel compelled to read more into him.
I arbitrarily declare Setael Town because he replaced in and saw more or less the same things I did. Ohhhhhhh look at that, I'm telling everyone who my scumpartners are inthread [/spyrexsarcasm]

WolfBlitzer -> hascow - No opinion. Waiting for him to finish his summary so he can realize that the people he's commented on most are all dead.

Looker - Who? Not enough to say much. Thus, a Very Important Opinion-Shaping Question:

@Looker:

Why Setael?

Nothing to add here really.

Miscellaneous: The arguing at the start of D3 looks cheesy to me. Seriously, throwing your votes around at LyLo without solid suspicions? You people are either bolder than I ever would be or know that nothing bad will come of it. Plus the whole modkill discussion bites (bited... bit... ugh, conjugating irregular vulgarities). I'd wager at most two of B_B, Zach, and springlullaby are scum based on this by itself, but not all three.

tl;dr Zachrulez, Beyond_Birthday, and Pablo Molinero are the scumteam. You're welcome. Cash only, please.

You're horribly wrong on me, but I see scope in the other two. If they turn out to be scum and it gets me hypothetically lynched in some way that won't cause the town to lose I wouldn't really mind that much.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Ok, that post you quoted is great and all, except that I don't see where you say she reads town... I see a lot of "could go either ways."

I had read that post... but if you had strongly asserted a town read on Spring, I wouldn't have asked you that question. (This analysis does not indicate a town read to me.)

I understand. Essentially, I have this to say:
I *can* understand Spring as town. However, I'm saying her play isn't exclusively town. I feel that coming up to it, her play today can be indicative of either alignment HOWEVER, I get generally town from her play. Looking at Vi's reasoning of Spring being strongly likely to be scum:
Vi, I know your throwing out your analysis of Spring's play, but what made you think she was scum? Just the convenience of the play or something actually rang a scumbell for you?

Vi's read: I am a psychopath. Thanks for noticing. *Takes knife which has been suspiciously absent for a while, cut's Vi's wrist and drinks the blood.* Mmm...sweet....

On the argument: *taps knife against lap.* Okay, I'll bite. The argument is good. The connection between Zach and myself is...well... *thinks* I don't know. I mean, it is flawed. I am not mafia. However, other than this, it reads like the Pablo argument did to me. I can see it. It is conceivable. It makes sense. Here's what doesn't make sense:

Springlullaby: Meh, either way.

Zach: Having read the post, I can see zach scum playing this way. After seeing his response, he makes it seem like he's suggesting that between the two of us, one of us has a good possibility to be town. Well, I know I'm town, but ignoring this, let's pretend I have a chance of being scum:

If we were both scum, Zach attacks me (his last post has done that): Either of us are lynched, the other is VERY likely to be town. Thus, two scum should do this. I don't like this play, and for Zach, this looks bad. Nope, don't like this at all.

If one is town, Zach attacks me:
If Zach were town: Well.... I know this isn't possible assuming one is one. Still, if Zach were town, I don't see how he would make the statement "At least one of us is town." It has more scum benefit to say that, but it could be town-aligned error. I don't like this at all.

If I am town: Then, Zach is trying to use the if we were both scum idea to secure a mislynch in the next lylo (tomorrow) assuming he is lynched today. If I am lynched today, mafia wins. Therefore, Zach could be making this play with that subtle statement to try and secure victory.

If we are both town:
Then his statement looks scummy, and although there is little benefit to town saying this, I guess it is town saying this.


Oddly, I feel that Zach is less concerned about the lylo situation and more concerned about getting who he wants lynched, lynched.

If I assume Zach is scum: I really don't see Spring is scum.

Since I know neither alignment but think that Spring, though recently ambiguous, is town, I think Zach is scum(my).

ZachRulez
Madame-fobs-hero (Vi)
Looker
Setael
Wolfblitzer
Pablo Molinero

He's back onf my list of potential/possible scum. Also, notice Spring's absence on this list? It has been (since my last post of it), and I think that I will wait for mfh, now VI's, response before I decide who should be on the next copy.

If vi is town, it is very likely Setael is town. If vi is scum, Setael still has an okay chance of being town.

Still don't really have a scum team formed. I've entered my fourth game of mafia (simul.), so I will give this a skim a bit later and form a scum team. I'll give vi and setael's Townie reads a look and try and find scum from the remainder. I'll also try and really delve into Spring's play and see if I can find something indicative of her alignment, but I didn't find anything the last two times, so we'll see.

PS: Zach, how is my inquiry rolefishing? You said that, after someone proposed Zach/spring that Spring looked scummy without clearing yourself and thus I wanted to know why you would be clear if Spring is scum. Not role fishing. Your answer was adequate, but this read of my intent is not.

[Zachrulez]

Okay Zach, so if Setael is after a mislynch, how does that incriminate Spring? Or, are you arguing Spring with Setael? If so, how would you clear yourself with Spring's mafia association (I use this as, since your voting her, I assume you think Spring is mafia.)?

I'm more convinced that Spring is scum than I am Setael. I think there's a good chance they are scum together though.

I can't clear myself, that's the point. That's why I suspect them.

I'm less interested in clearing myself than I am lynching scum.

Flawless. Zach isn't scum.

So, this moves on to his case on Spring which isn't bad:

Unvote (was I voting? Too lazy to look); Vote Springlullaby

I am going to look into Spring's play day 1, yesterday, and going to contemplate on Spring's play today. I like Zach very much right now, his percent just got cut in half actually.

Before my next post:

We're in "mylo" Mislynch and lose.

Lylo=lynch OR lose. ... unless you mean it is lynch and lose, which isn't necessarily true.

I personally think both these phrases are stupid, but I see it often enough to know to what it is referring.

After reading 564, I exploded into laughter.

[Grimmy]

WIFOM MARKER GOES HERE

Done

Grimmy
got this idea from page 673 in Modding for Dummies®

[Archon]

Attention to mod

I'm going on a trip for a week to mexico. I don't know just how much internet I'll be able to get, but I will make an effort to still stay active.

Adios!

[Grimmy]

The deadline remains on Siesta as long as progress/discussions/other things to amuse me (ooh..shiny...) continue, so thanks for the heads up.

Grimmy

[Looker]

@Vi - Nice. I don't know, though, I think it was a pressure vote; I'll go back and see. Until then,

unvote

.

[Looker]

i remember. just trying to put everyone on the map. wouldn't want anyone to get too comfortable.

vote: hasdqfas

[hasdgfas]

Grimmafia catch-up posts: Pages 8-11

Post 197 - BB: So why, exactly, are you voting for Spring? I really have no idea.
Post 202 - Zach: Wow, snappy. Answer the darn question.
Post 205 - Zach: Don't expect "nice" from someone who wants you to answer a question. Too many people ditz around.
Post 206 - Nuwen: "The only thing a townie knows for certain on day 1 is that he or she is a townie." What a horrible sentence. This feels like scum trying to get people to distrust everyone.
Post 207 - Zach: What? I don't know what you're saying here.
Post 209 - spring: I don't like point number two here at all. Seems lazy and opportunistic.
Post 212 - Jere: Then shouldn't we be lynching zer to see if he's scum before thinking anything about spring?
Post 216 - Zach: Not a contradiction at all.
Post 220 - BB: This.....makes a lot of sense. I wasn't actually seeing the two-sided play of spring willing to lynch zer but not actually voting him.
Post 224 - Nuwen: This last paragraph is a little bit weird to me. I don't like the assumption that scum don't bus early because they can do other things. Plus, there aren't really any quality scum players, so we can't assume that people are.
Post 233 - Jere: This entire post rubs me the wrong way.
Post 234 - Ecto: good post.
Post 236 - zer: 1) brilliant 2) but you should be able to help ON day 1 3) buh? 4) then actually do stuff
Post 271 - Zach: zwet isn't active lurking. He's posting content, even if it's short bursts that are sometimes hard to understand.


Yeah, I can only stand this game in about 3-5 page bursts.
Right now, Jere still feels like scum to me.
zer is just being ridiculous.
zach feels a bit scummier after I thought he was town earlier. Don't really know exactly what's changed my mind.
I don't really have a read on BB. He seems to be posting a lot, but a lot of it is nothing.

sorry that catching up is taking so long.

[Beyond_Birthday]

It's alright talking cow. (your name is confusing to spell)

@Zach: If I were close minded, I would let that sole response defend you. I still think the possibility both of us are town exists EXCEPT, that your response to Vi (where you inserted the idea that one of the people he was attacking is probably town) is stupid. Your statement, as I said, doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, I feel quite strongly that your role is probably inverse to Spring. Since we are in a mislynch and lose situation, we can't lynch one then the other. And that would assume that its true. Just because your play reflects that, I cannot be totally certain you and spring are not both townies or both scum. I don't know.

I do know that you seem to be coming off really....badly lately. Its like I give you a pass to say: He looks very town (from giving the flawless town answer) and you've successfully dashed it in the next post.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Ebwop: Next FEW posts.

[Vi]

Zero was mostly unresponsive to my repeated attempts to get him to actually do anything other than active lurk and say we didn't have anything to go off of. Nevermind the fact that I said I was catching up on the reading when I posted that. I usually comment on current events, and then go into the meat of what happened throughout the game. (The stuff that isn't new.)

But that commentary seems rather selective. Where was B_B? Where was P. Molinero? Ectomancer? I see you chastising springlullaby, but the rest of your statements were against people who were attacking/implicating you. No seriously. Everyone, check out the impeta for Zach dealing with Nuwen, mfh, zwetschenwasser, JereIC, and so forth D1.

Not that I ever said there was or wasn't mafia on the wagon. I guess I never really ever did a good job communicating my position on this subject, but I didn't really want to presume either way. It tends to lead to day 2s where you only suspect the people on the bandwagon if you presume it was scum driven. (Can you honestly say that scum have never just let the town lynch themselves?)

I've certainly let the Town lynch itself into oblivion before, but I've never seen a D1 lynch wagon - or near-lynch wagon - that was entirely Town-driven outside my first Mafia game here, which was full of people who thought that the best way to get to know someone is to put them at L-1 and watch what happens. It was fun ^.^
But back on the subject, realize you've just fallen into another pothole. If you were going to make the very politically correct statement that there may or may not have been Mafia on the wagon, then you clearly weren't interested in scumhunting. Wagons are the best way to discern motive D1. To effectively shut down the argument that Zer0's wagon had scum on it certainly seems like you're on the side of "there were no Mafia on the wagon" and denies the Town the best insight into the other players' alignments that they could have had up to that time.

Incidentally, do you think there were scum on that early wagon? Without the b.s., if you would.

Which lynch? I thought Spring was reaching on JereIC. I didn't find him scummy, that doesn't somehow mean I thought he made good points against Spring, just that I didn't think it was scummy. For the record, I thought her attack of him was.

"Lining up lynches" as in Zer0-scum -> s-lullaby-scum, but this is beside the point of the actual charge against you - namely that your response to springlullaby's inquiry was to drag the question into unproductive bickering and legalism. Sort of like what happened to this point.

This is a matter of me feeling that giving this defense (of Zero) any weight is just asking to let him completely get away with being scum in games, by playing just like this... and having a game pointed out where he was town where he played like this so that he could just coast right along to newb town looking victory. I'm not quite experienced enough yet to see all the tiny nuances that would tell me one way or another here... so I figure lynching him is safer from my perspective because I found him scummy.

This looks as weak as seven days. ...Oh, quit groaning.
Anyway, a wagon forming very quickly against Zer0 is hardly a "tiny nuance".

Eh, you've basically started your argument with the conclusion about my role. I deciphered his alignment using my own means... and I did it incorrectly.

It's not circular. You can push a lynch as Town or scum. Obviously you can guess which side I'm leaning toward given logic that shouldn't make sense to any rational person (there's a reason ICs need five games on the site, not just one).

Also another thought I had...

You call Zero's wagon easy, but vote for Zwet?

They're both active lurkers, and both seem like easy bandwagons.

It... just... seems... hyp-o-cri-ti-cal.

Straw man. Read mfh 263.

You're going to have to explain this one better to me.

Quotes from mfh 263 and 268, without tags because they make this post look really long (longer than it is).

"zwet still hasnt posted any content except to post that other players arent posting content. lurker or scum? idk." (point for you)
"zwetschenwassers feels scum too. his post is basically me too, vote zero. its especially ironic that he dogs on beyond_birthday for doing the same thing, only with more reasoning." (point for me)
"zachrulez 179 and zwetschenwassers 180 feel really scummy. zach doesnt even really sound like he thinks z3r0ph34r is scum, and zwetschenwasser is pulling the meta card on him when its, what, his second or third game? metas can vary wildly for the first five or so games as a player tries to develop a consistent playstyle." (point for me)
"as of zwetschenwassers 184, im ready to lynch him. pure gloating scum." (point for me)

So yeah. Your accusation of mfh voting zwetschenwasser for being an active lurker is bad enough that my response will destroy a piece of your soul.

Thanks for the tips... I'll make sure to keep my eye out for posts like that from you. Don't presume I would hypothetically play as mafia the same way as you though please.

Despite the polite request as indicated by "please", I must respectfully decline. This is yet another slippery slope argument - "you have no meta on me, therefore you don't know what I would do that's scummy, therefore your point is invalid". There's a reason certain behaviors are labeled

tells

- more people do them than not (unless they're told not to).

Maybe, I was thinking about it, but I really don't know what I would have done. Would have been nice if he actually DIDN'T so that you could know for sure and not just speculate...

blah blah blah yes i waffled so im gonna waffle again u aint got a case on me coppa

My vote was in my pocket largely because I was trying to determine whether or not scum would be as obvious as he had... or if he was in the same camp as Zero and just bad town.

[

citation needed

]

Mini 667

You declared Charter obvscum.

I'm aware of that game cause sotty7 is my wife.

Anyway, maybe it's not exactly fair to bring up that game, but I hope it gives you something to think about.

I was going to ask you about that, since you said you were married to a scummer. *waves at Sotty7*

Anyway, yes, there is something to think about from that game. Despite what I said at the time because I didn't know any better, charter's meta is to play like obvscum all the time and come under fire more often than not for being himself. You don't have that meta. Furthermore, I've improved quite a bit since then, pegging Juls as scum in Mini 729 when I replaced in. Moreover, your insistence on

defending

everything that I've tossed at you instead of admitting "yes, I messed up" at any point solidifies my opinion that your intentions are not pure.

You're horribly wrong on me, but I see scope in the other two. If they turn out to be scum and it gets me hypothetically lynched in some way that won't cause the town to lose I wouldn't really mind that much.

This noble sacrifice approach is as flat as a day-old Pepsi that just got run over by a snowplow.
This is

SPARTA!!!

LyLo. Assuming three scum - and there's really no reason not to at this point - barring unforeseen circumstances there's no projected time that you could be lynched (as Town) and not cause Town to lose.

Bottom line: My opinion hasn't changed. Further arguing along these lines probably won't get it to change, frankly; and in the interest of interest (mine, yours, and others') I'd rather ask who you would rather replace yourself with in my scumteam of you, B_B, and P.Mo. People generally don't read wallposts unless they have to, anyway, so I wouldn't consider it pro-Town to turn this into a Wall War. And besides, didn't you say that you were more interested in lynching scum than clearing yourself?

-----

Vi's read: I am a psychopath.

Thanks for noticing.

A psychopath Eeyore?

If we were both scum, Zach attacks me (his last post has done that): Either of us are lynched, the other is VERY likely to be town. Thus, two scum should do this.

I don't like this play, and for Zach, this looks bad.

Nope, don't like this at all.

I can only roll my eyes at the first part. The second part doesn't make sense to me.

Still, if Zach were town, I don't see how he would make the statement "At least one of us is town." It has more scum benefit to say that, but it could be town-aligned error. I don't like this at all.

Context suggests he wasn't very concerned about your welfare when he said it.

Oddly, I feel that Zach is less concerned about the lylo situation and more concerned about getting who he wants lynched, lynched.

Yes.

ZachRulez
Madame-fobs-hero (Vi)
Looker
Setael
Wolfblitzer
Pablo Molinero

He's back onf my list of potential/possible scum. Also, notice Spring's absence on this list?

...springlullaby and you are the only people absent from this list. From a pragmatic perspective, that's outrightly disgusting.

VI

Oh

no you didn't.

Daykill: Beyond_Birthday

-----

@Grimmy: Thanks! 'Needs a shop or two, but that's workable~

@Looker: ...not the answer I was looking for. Why unvote Setael?


tl;dr: Aside from how Looker is playing like newbscum, no opinions have changed.