Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[hasdgfas]

Voting this early in lylo

is not protown.

So you win a spot on my suspicion list along with Archon.

Can't contain your excitement because you're so close to winning the game as scum?

:eyebrows:

[Archon]

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

what? Then what did you mean by this?

Your reasoning is weak.

Looker was PRETENDING to scumhunt when he posted that list, and the only people who know whether or not there was scum in that list or not... are scum.

And thus while town is stuck not knowing whether there were any scum in Looker's list, the scum DO know, and can use that information to their advantage.

[Zachrulez]

Voting this early in lylo

is not protown.

So you win a spot on my suspicion list along with Archon.

Can't contain your excitement because you're so close to winning the game as scum?

:eyebrows:

I guess saying voting this early in a lylo day would have gotten my point across better.

Oh well.

[Zachrulez]

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

what? Then what did you mean by this?

Your reasoning is weak.

Looker was PRETENDING to scumhunt

when he posted that list, and the only people who know whether or not there was scum in that list or not... are scum.

And thus while town is stuck not knowing whether there were any scum in Looker's list, the scum DO know, and can use that information to their advantage.

I think the bolded makes it pretty clear that I know Looker flipped scum and didn't miss it.

[Archon]

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

what? Then what did you mean by this?

Your reasoning is weak.

Looker was PRETENDING to scumhunt

when he posted that list, and the only people who know whether or not there was scum in that list or not... are scum.

And thus while town is stuck not knowing whether there were any scum in Looker's list, the scum DO know, and can use that information to their advantage.

I think the bolded makes it pretty clear that I know Looker flipped scum and didn't miss it.

yeah but... but...
Nevermind.

[Beyond_Birthday]

However, he used the typical "blue" for town, I'd assume the "real" mafia is red... so either SK OR second mafia or second anti town group... Again, I may be reading too much into this, but it is my first reaction to something like this after reading other games.

This fails hard.

So the towns gather together and decides that our dear mayor Grimmy needs to die. However, since this is not a viable option at this time, they decide to turn their agressions on Looker.

and it is a good thing too, because at the sun was setting on the horizon, Looker appeared to be getting more agressive...angrier....and hairier?

The villagers quickly react in time to put this WEREWOLF down with a bunch of silver utensils they had lying around the main hall.

Somewhere, a howl of anger is heard, and the villagers know that this may be their worst night yet.

Looker- Werewolf- was lynched day 3

We have now enetered the Night phase, and all players with night actions should PM me as soon as possible to get the next day started. Day will begin next thursday at Noon, est.

grimmy

So did the real mafia HOWL in response to Looker getting lynched?

A HOWL! ONE! SINGULAR! Two mafia teams=2 people each, right? Unless its a sk lover with a town aligned lover or something... So, given this line of thought, what do you think?

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

...and here you flip back to super townie looking zach. I must admit, you're starting to piss me off.

Archon scum? Hm... I think the odds of Archon+Looker scum group are remarkably low. And I believe you agreed. (I'd have to check my facts. Will do later.) If you did, that means you agreed with my theory about two scum groups when I said it, and you just blundered by still suspecting Archon despite Looker flipping scum. That, or you think Looker isn't scum.

I will come back to this tomorrow, consider the logic, and I'll find the progression.

[Zachrulez]

A HOWL! ONE! SINGULAR! Two mafia teams=2 people each, right? Unless its a sk lover with a town aligned lover or something... So, given this line of thought, what do you think?

I think you might be overthinking it.

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

...and here you flip back to super townie looking zach. I must admit, you're starting to piss me off.

Archon scum? Hm... I think the odds of Archon+Looker scum group are remarkably low. And I believe you agreed. (I'd have to check my facts. Will do later.) If you did, that means you agreed with my theory about two scum groups when I said it, and you just blundered by still suspecting Archon despite Looker flipping scum. That, or you think Looker isn't scum.

I will come back to this tomorrow, consider the logic, and I'll find the progression.

I thought Archon was scum yesterday, and it never depended on Looker's flip. Why do you think the odds of Archon + Looker scum are low?

I'd also like to know who you think the scum are please.

[Archon]

Yes, why do you think that we can't be scum?

[Beyond_Birthday]

I thought Archon was scum yesterday, and it never depended on Looker's flip. Why do you think the odds of Archon + Looker scum are low?

I'd also like to know who you think the scum are please.

Ah. In that case, either Vi or myself said it. If me, I guess I'm just really hoping that it isn't true. Furthermore Zach, do you think anyone is more likely to be scum with Looker? Also, of the people lynched, if you DON'T think that there are two scum groups, do you think two person scum team OR an anti miller? If so, who is the likely anti-miller?

I just think in 12 people... hm... well, to me it seems virtually impossible, hence, I subscribed to the two man scum team. (I mentally eliminated two mafia groups (not cult or other anti town group), sk, and Vig reason for our existence since there hasn't been a two kill night.

What do you think?

[Pablo Molinero]

B-B

A HOWL! ONE! SINGULAR! Two mafia teams=2 people each, right? Unless its a sk lover with a town aligned lover or something... So, given this line of thought, what do you think?

Please tell me this is sarcasm. The stretch is laughable and any talk about multi-scum groups or anything like that is too far out of the realm of possibility at this point. If there were more than 1 anti-town group, how have we not had 2 NKs ever? I'm betting on the standard 3-scum team that just happens to go with the "werewolf" theme the game sometimes has. Your recent posts at the colors, mod text, and now this quoted statement, smacks of desperation. Your plea to emotion at the end of last day in the

And then the other possibility is Looker is scum. Which, while I hope is true, I realize would result in town loss because then I would most likely be lynched. I suppose I conclude that town can't win from my perspective.

Fuck, I have to add my first town loss...damn...(And the mafia loss hit me pretty hard to...>.<)

If it's *that* bad, why the hell would you say that instead of going out and trying to prevent that first town-loss?

Vote: ...

God dammit, I can't do it just yet.

I will come back to this tomorrow, consider the logic, and I'll find the progression.

Alright, it's 'tomorrow'. You better have something good.

I pause due to Arch latching onto Zach in a very, very bizarre manner and Zach trying to practically beat him off with a stick, but B-B has done nothing redeeming recently and my reread just solidified my position. However, at presumed LyLo, (still), we have to tread carefully and Arch's (and by extention, Zach's) behavior worry me.

Arch

Yes, why do you think that we can't be scum?

Cocky/buddying much?

Also, I say again since I was blatantly ignored the first time: if we have 6 people left, 4 to lynch, shouldn't a "no lynch" be a viable option? There's no one totally clean, 3 townies have to agree instead of 4, and we eliminate one suspect from the pool. We'd be in basically the same situation of lynch-correctly-or-lose but with less players to muddy the waters. Recent development make me pause at voting and I think a no lynch could be a decent move.

I wanna see how hascow and setael weigh in.

[Zachrulez]

I am inclined to agree with Pablo. It makes more sense that we're up against a 3 man scumteam.

Also, I think Archon's latching in regards to me has to do with him being scum and wanting to get me lynched.

As for no lynching. I hate no lynching, it's really just the kind of player I am more than anything. There's probably merits to considering this as an option though.

[Zachrulez]

I thought Archon was scum yesterday, and it never depended on Looker's flip. Why do you think the odds of Archon + Looker scum are low?

I'd also like to know who you think the scum are please.

Ah. In that case, either Vi or myself said it. If me, I guess I'm just really hoping that it isn't true. Furthermore Zach, do you think anyone is more likely to be scum with Looker? Also, of the people lynched, if you DON'T think that there are two scum groups, do you think two person scum team OR an anti miller? If so, who is the likely anti-miller?

I just think in 12 people... hm... well, to me it seems virtually impossible, hence, I subscribed to the two man scum team. (I mentally eliminated two mafia groups (not cult or other anti town group), sk, and Vig reason for our existence since there hasn't been a two kill night.

What do you think?

This doesn't answer my question.

Also you never answered this one...

Beyond_Birthday.

Why shouldn't I vote to lynch you where you stand?

[Archon]

@Pablo
Just trying to get a discussion going. that's all.

[Archon]

Oh, hey, I would like to take this time to say that about Wednesday to Friday, I'm not expecting to be on much as a massive project is due, and it is worth something like 90% of my grade.

So, don't get too worried if a lynch happens and I'm not so active.

[hasdgfas]

vote: Beyond_Birthday

I get the feeling that all this talk about what the scum team might be is coming from a scum who either knows something weird is going on or wants to make the town think that something weird is going on.

[Pablo Molinero]

My reasons stand, B-B has not shown up for any further defense. I think the 3-scum is standard for a game this big, so I fail to see why you would immediately leap to the 2-scum team idea.

vote: Beyond Birthday

[Archon]

Official unofficial votecount;
Sateal-(Archon)
Zach-(sateal)
B-B-(hasdgfas, Pablo Molinero)
I guess it takes four to lynch

----------

Whyt did you two jump on the BB bandwagon so fast?

[Zachrulez]

Official unofficial votecount;
Sateal-(Archon)
Zach-(sateal)
B-B-(hasdgfas, Pablo Molinero)
I guess it takes four to lynch

----------

Whyt did you two jump on the BB bandwagon so fast?

Are you opposed to the idea of lynching Beyond Birthday?

[Pablo Molinero]

Because he's done nothing so far but throw out far fetched theories to (?) save himself, no scuhunting or deflection of attention. I'm not going to tell him what to do, but it's uncharacteristic to a player that seemed quite competent earlier. He defended looker on a double standard (voting for you instead) and pleaded to emotion near the end of yesterday.

[Setael]

@pablo: when did beyond seem like a competent player? Can you provide examples because I don't recall any. I don't like this wagon. The two who have voted both seem to just be reacting to zach's attacks. zach is scummily pushing it without voting and I think zach is scum. It also feels like distraction from the no lynch conversation which I agree would be a wise move.

@zach - the scummiest thing you've done all game IMO was your reaction to my vote. Instead of explaining yourself or defending your actions you tried to throw suspicion on me.

Here, I'll put it in question form so it's harder to blow off. Why did you hammer before anyone had a chance to check the thread? Why did you not ask for a claim? Why did you not wait for looker even to check the thread and respond to being -1? What was the rush? And why did you ask vie's
permission like that?

I believe a townie in that situation (lylo; player that hasn't claimed or even talked much recently is at -1) would be more cautious and not nearly so impatient to hammer. You voted as though you knew he was scum and there was no chance you were wrong to be hammering. Maybe I'm sounding like a broken record but I think you saw no possibility of saving your wolf buddy so you hammered to gain town points.

What say you?

[Archon]

Official unofficial votecount;
Sateal-(Archon)
Zach-(sateal)
B-B-(hasdgfas, Pablo Molinero)
I guess it takes four to lynch

----------

Whyt did you two jump on the BB bandwagon so fast?

Are you opposed to the idea of lynching Beyond Birthday?

No, Just opposed to the fact that in two posts, one after another, BB was voted.

[Zachrulez]

Here, I'll put it in question form so it's harder to blow off. Why did you hammer before anyone had a chance to check the thread? Why did you not ask for a claim? Why did you not wait for looker even to check the thread and respond to being -1? What was the rush? And why did you ask vie's
permission like that?

I believe a townie in that situation (lylo; player that hasn't claimed or even talked much recently is at -1) would be more cautious and not nearly so impatient to hammer. You voted as though you knew he was scum and there was no chance you were wrong to be hammering. Maybe I'm sounding like a broken record but I think you saw no possibility of saving your wolf buddy so you hammered to gain town points.

What say you?

Well in this situation, this townie saw the fact that Looker was twice placed at lynch -1 and wasn't quick hammered, and ended up eventually seeing things from Vi's point of view about Looker unavoidably being scum if either me or Beyond Birthday were scum. (And Beyond Birthday was unwilling to hammer.)

I didn't really see it as being impatient to hammer, it was moreso conceding to what was the inevitable conclusion by Vi.

I suppose I could have asked for a claim, but I don't think anyone who's been lynched has actually been asked for a claim up to this point. Also looking back I can't see how that would have any value since if someone who was town was facing an impending lynch, it's likely they would be hammered quite quickly by scum anyway.

I probably should have been thinking about a lot of those things before I hammered, but that just kinda goes down to my playing style, I more or less just try not to overthink things much. I hate 2nd guessing. I guess it is something I am going to have to learn.

I guess I can see how that might look scummy in retrospect, but I'm nothing more than a townie who took a shot at hammering Looker conceding the logic that scum surely would have hammered him long before that point had he been town.

I don't expect you to believe me, so you can think what you want there.

I will point out that it's a tad faulty of you to say that my points against Beyond_Birthday are scummy. You can't ignore logic on one hand, and accept it on the other.

[Beyond_Birthday]

And then the other possibility is Looker is scum. Which, while I hope is true, I realize would result in town loss because then I would most likely be lynched. I suppose I conclude that town can't win from my perspective.

Fuck, I have to add my first town loss...damn...(And the mafia loss hit me pretty hard to...>.<)

If it's *that* bad, why the hell would you say that instead of going out and trying to prevent that first town-loss?

I would imagine it has something to do with the fact I posted the above quoted AFTER Zach hammered. How the hell would I prevent the potential mishammer then!?

Because he's done nothing so far but throw out far fetched theories to (?) save himself, no scuhunting or deflection of attention. I'm not going to tell him what to do, but it's uncharacteristic to a player that seemed quite competent earlier. He defended looker on a double standard (voting for you instead) and pleaded to emotion near the end of yesterday.

Oh thanks. This really motivates me to help. Also, you fail to connect how scum would act in this particular manner. If scum were in *another* lylo situation, wouldn't it just be really likely that I, as scum, would do something to prove my innocence? Just saying that your failing at your follow through.

Archon: No, I always subscribe to considering crazy theories. Anyway, I am ready to move on to something much more interesting.

Looker (sipylus)
Trying to be objective:

Post 0: Meaningless
Post 1: JereIC, Nuwen, perAurdua (Hasdqfas), and Zachrulez are mentioned for posting littel content. Ectomancer (Saetal) is also mentioned for posting "content."
Looker:
Post 3: Attacks Setael and Zach as a possible scum team after asking my opinion and not receiving the answer he wanted.
Post 8: Uses a Vi-related reason to unvote.
Post 9: Votes Has
Post 10: Kind of gets angry at Vi for... ??? Unvotes.
Post 11: Spends most of his time mildly attacking Vi and defending himself frantically. Really scattered. Blames setael for making him do work to research Zach, which is odd generally because he wanted to attack Zach earlier. I am sad I didn't hammer this guy with how scummy he had been acting.

Anyway, his post generally get less coherent as the day went on. I think, however, a few points are interesting.

Just to be objective: Looker really never mentions much negatively about me. He also buddies up to me in Post 2 and 3 by asking my opinion on Setael and then changing his mind after getting my opinion. I know that he is buddying up to town here, but I can't prove it. Sorry.

However, here are some other people who send up flags:

Zachrules: Inversely to me, Looker constantly attacks Zach to the point of near harrassment. It is possible he was trying to make Zach look right as rain when he died. Archon even set that tone when the day started, and if I were a gambler (instead of a serial killer *name*), I'd bet Zachrules and Archon are scum with the deceased Looker. This assumes that Looker is their partner and despite tradition, the yellow color=mafia/werewolves as the name suggest. I guess I'm too by the book; it just bothers me.

Setael: Similar to Zach, Looker makes reference to Setael being a potential mafia member but fails to ever pin him down. This is interesting because it indicates one of three things:

One. Looker is scum with Setael and someone else. He skims the thread and finds something Ecto did as scummy. It may have been that since Sipylus mentioned Ecto for "content" on day 1 that Looker thought it would be necessary that, in taking over Sipylus' role, he continue this attack. This is a scum, I don't wanna read the game mind set, but ultimately tells us little about Setael.

Two. Including the above or NOT, Looker thought it best to to attack one of his own, Setael in this case, and a town aligned player, Zachrules. The theory that, Looker being as he is, attacked both of his own team mates, but I don't think Looker is that insane.

Three. Looker perceived Setael as being the towniest player and thought that if he were to create a statement pairing Setael and Zachrulez as scum in his "mind," that people might think Zach is town by association. In fact, when brought up, I felt the accusation was mildly ridiculous, as did a few others, and he asked my opinion, connecting me to both players as well. Since Looker is scum, it would make sense that he and his partner were getting involved with two town aligned players. Who that partner is is a little bit of a mystery, unless, of course, my theory is correct and that is to say Zach is scum.

Zach could be scum with the most unfortunate partners of all time, and it makes sense. I will admit that the Vi points in my direction, but Vi thought we were scum together for a reason, yet voted Looker. My bet is that Vi considered the above scenario (number 3), and that the common denominator between the four of us is that Looker started it, and was, therefore, the most likely scum. Combine this with Looker's general motive, and I think we can figure out how Vi might have considered the next few plays. I am assuming a bit on Vi since he can't/didn't mention it, but it makes sense to me.

Also:

Here, I'll put it in question form so it's harder to blow off. Why did you hammer before anyone had a chance to check the thread? Why did you not ask for a claim? Why did you not wait for looker even to check the thread and respond to being -1? What was the rush? And why did you ask vie's
permission like that?

I believe a townie in that situation (lylo; player that hasn't claimed or even talked much recently is at -1) would be more cautious and not nearly so impatient to hammer. You voted as though you knew he was scum and there was no chance you were wrong to be hammering. Maybe I'm sounding like a broken record but I think you saw no possibility of saving your wolf buddy so you hammered to gain town points.

What say you?

Well in this situation, this townie saw the fact that Looker was twice placed at lynch -1 and wasn't quick hammered, and ended up eventually seeing things from Vi's point of view about Looker unavoidably being scum if either me or Beyond Birthday were scum. (And Beyond Birthday was unwilling to hammer.)

Or, let me see:

I am town. I was unwilling to hammer because, well, let's face it. Only two things are 20-20 in this game, mafia vision and hindsight. I have neither, and I needed to think about what was happening and the case against Looker. While I can now look back and speculate on Vi's thought and potential clarity, I never had this thought process yesterday. However, you hammered knowing you could use this case to get me lynched today. The fact remains:

Lylo-1 scum, -1 townie=lylo.

You did what you had to do to ensure that today you would get a townie, me, lynched. Well, I won't allow it. Your scum partner is probably on my wagon already, isn't he? That's why you can't make the third vote on me, which would probably be the scummiest of them.

Vote Zachrulez

[Zachrulez]

Or maybe the one thing preventing me from actually casting a 3rd vote on you would be how risky and stupid it might be if by some miracle you're town despite all your actions and a scum (who is NOT my partner) is already on the wagon with another one looming over you looking to hammer.

[Zachrulez]

Also yeah... are you trying to say it's scummy that I'm actually not casting the 3rd vote because I know how scummy it would be... but now if I cast the 3rd vote on you, that will be scummy?

Ummm... yeah, I'm seeing a lot of bussing accusations against me, and very little effort to actually build a substantial case against me.

You and Setael are both guilty of this. You've started the day under the presumption that I bussed Looker and am scum trying to win town points, and you're basically making cases that are crappy in reality because they are really nothing more than a house of cards built on a preconceived conclusion.