Open 870 | White Flag Mountainous | Postgame

[Shirou]

especially Aubrey/Furtive

[Shirou]

Norwee I think I die tonight maybe

will u kill scum for me when I'm dead

you need to

they're scum posting too much

This is a real thought you had?

yes

@CSF I basically love the argument you made against TGP that the posts were out of order and that may indicate it's fabricated, if you're scum here i still love you anyway, it's one of the things i look into sometimes but i didn't even notice it here.

[Shirou]

Like this while at the same time ateing that you are drained cause ppl are scum reading you is fake as hell

you do not understand the complete context of why i'm drained

it's a lot of things combined right now, from all sort of things

this reason you pointed out is one of them but uh...i don't think i'm too scum read here relatively to other slots?

i feel like there's a lack of someone leading on me for me to feel too bothered about the random suspicious on me, there's no one loud enough screaming for my death and i think in a gamestate like this it's what it takes for a wagon to happen. maybe fire could start a serious wagon on me though, I could see that and it would be even more annoying indeed...

[Shirou]

i think my solve is kinda correct so given there's not many universally town read slots other than ?pina? i could die here?

idk i usually die early so maybe i'm unconsciously assuming it's gonna be the same here even though i'm not an universal town read as i used to in most of my past games

maybe i need to get used to being scum read

[Shirou]

i could be totally wrong and hard scum siding though, yeah

sad if that's the case

[Shirou]

it generally feels like norwegianboyee is

here

to me but not really pushing the game in a direction and that’s not really what i would expect from norwegianboyee as town

like it’s not the lack of ‘solving’ or anything it would be weird if norwegianboyee started presenting cases or something but the lack of pushing for what norwegianboyee wants is odd to me like i kinda assumed in previous games that that is how norwegianboyee sorts - simply by pushing whoever and gauging responses but there’s a chance that’s an altogether inaccurate assumption on my part as it was largely formed when i was playing as a scums

Ok so:

What was bugging me about this game was this reason a bit + people constantly saying "hey, your norwegian townread? are you sure it's correct?", Gimli even going as far as saying I need to "pray for it to be right" (and I suspect Gimli). It almost feels like some people know as a matter of fact that Norwee is scum and I'm throwing and look like a clown. (Not to mention be associated to him if he ever "flipped" scum?)

I think Norwee will agree with me here that he hasn't been pushing people that much in this game, he doesn't feel too engaged in following spontaneous thoughts he has about other slots, but at the same time I don't think that's his scum game, it just feels like he's kinda lazy in this game as town, for example on this progression I still feel his spontaneity a bit although in a smaller scale:

Spoiler:

I feel norwee is a bit lackluster too

I'm bored.
Find a way to entertain me.

There hasn't been a scumflip and nobody seems scummy.

Tbh i wouldn't even mind being a wagon, maybe it'll motivate me to solve.

VOTE: gimli

For some reason i thought Gimli was Aristeia slot, but it's actually Lucian.
Hmm, i think that could be interesting.
VOTE: Gimli

Actually my boredom might be because there's not a whole lot of voting. Just talking.

You changed your attitude right quick huh. I just wanted to see what would happen and it's curious.

The fact that we're now arguing about the true definition of Gimli saying Potato is very hilarious to me.

My biggest reason for liking his slot though is due to my push on him. The way it didn't feel fake how he wasn't pleased with my incorrect read on him. It's something that only works once though I think, next time if scum he'll probably try to copy how he reacted in this game to attempt to be town read again.

[Shirou]

I've doubted a bit but I'm back at...Norwee is town in my world view. Please don't vote him, a lot of people miseliminate Norwee for the reasons you guys are describing and it's more often than not wrong.

Miseliminating Norwee here is one of the ways we lose the game in my opinion.

[Shirou]

My biggest reason for liking his slot though is due to my push on him. The way it didn't feel fake how he wasn't pleased with my incorrect read on him. It's something that only works once though I think, next time if scum he'll probably try to copy how he reacted in this game to attempt to be town read again.

Didn't you say it was intended to be fake from the get-go. This is a pretty big change in explanation.

Norwee I'm so tired I'm sorry I didn't make it clear on my wording there that it was fake from the get-go?

It was so over the top, isn't it kinda clear in hindsight that it was fake?

[Shirou]

My head is very very fuzzy

like I said I need a break after giving my final thoughts in this dayphase

[Shirou]

Hold it.

CSF called TGP/Fire bussing but DIDN'T vote TGP???

CSF has been voting TGP since forever

do you guys not understand

this is scum posting

gimli/furtive have been trying to test waters for CSF since they came in

my opinion is that they need miseliminations and are trying to cook one on CSF.

[Shirou]

i probably should spell "scum posting" as "scumposting" to be clearer hm

[Shirou]

Norwee if i die will u try to sheep my PoE?

same question to CSF

[Shirou]

like

theoretically speaking CSF could be scum but she's not scumposting and i think she deserves the win

it may not seem like it if you don't pay attention but her analysis of the game have quite a lot of insight and effort behind them, it's not just #randomthoughts

i don't remember her scum game and would next time be much more wary of her if she's scum but i like Cakez spontaneous posts before replacing out and also like her analysis/current mindset & reads so i'm good with calling her town and not eliminating there

[Shirou]

Norwee what are your thoughts at this game

talk to me

[Shirou]

who feels scummy besides TGP

[Shirou]

ok if i'm alive tomorrow there's one more person to vote my suspects so that's problem solved

in the worst scenario that i'm killed here and TGP flips town though, there's 9 alive on a 6:3 ratio, 5 necessary to eliminate.

Therefore I need 5 people on the SHIP OF JUSTICE.

I'm CAPTAIN SHIROU

Objective is KILLING SCUMPOSTING slots

Ultimate ideal is winning a setup with 70% scum winrate

[Shirou]

[Norwe, CSF]

three tickets to go

@StD, @Pina, @Fire I'm formally inviting you.

[Shirou]

[Norwe, CSF]

three tickets to go

@StD, @Pina, @Fire I'm formally inviting you.

actually also you @Toto.

If Fire is scum I need one more slot there, just like if you're.

[Shirou]

[Norwe, CSF]

three tickets to go

@StD, @Pina, @Fire I'm formally inviting you.

actually also you @Toto.

If Fire is scum I need one more slot there, just like if you're.

Ok fuck Fire/Toto can both be scum bussing scum!TGP

I NEED ONE MORE if tgp is scum.

If TGP is scum I think Klick is town, so I also want to invinte you @Klick on a TGP red flip.

If TGP flips green I think Klick is out of the group unfortunately.

[Shirou]

so basically I want to talk with/convice [Norwee, CSF, STD, Pina, Fire]

If TGP is scum, I wanna include Klick on the group.

If TGP is town, I wanna include Toto on the group.

[Shirou]

UNVOTE:

[Shirou]

i don't really have any interest at all in following you for the sake of following you

I don't mean it like that

I'm gonna try to convince you guys of it

[Shirou]

My ?final? thoughts on this dayphase:

I believe that killing all of [Gimli, Furtive, TGP] guarantees at least one scum, and we can afford up to 3 eliminations until reaching ELO. Therefore, we need a group of 3 people that

can't all be town

in my opinion and this is the most likely group at the moment.

I think flipping TGP today to sort Klick isn't a bad idea. Klick was the first slot to proactively town lean/try to "protect" TGP when everyone suspected them and one of the facts of this setup is that historically, scum has often

bussed

to disassociate. It even has a name ("White Flag Gambit") and was first used by the founder of this site (Mith! Random thank you for creating this site!).

If TGP is

scum

:

I believe if TGP and Klick were partners, Klick wouldn't give such a confident town read/defense of TGP as he's going down, it's not gonna look good after the flip. Therefore I believe that Klick/TGP aren't partnered, the defense seems too open and straightforward to come from my partners. If TGP flips red, I believe Klick deserves to be in the townblock/out of the PoE, just as I believe Toto needs to be inserted on it. Toto has often said they scum read TGP but is hesitant to vote there until the last minute it seems, it could very well be a weak bus that he knows has a heavy price on this setup, so he's trying to not go into that direction as much as possible.

Therefore, if TGP is scum I wouldn't recommend eliminating Klick.

My PoE for Day 3 would be: [Furtive/Toto > Gimli]

if TGP is

town

:

I believe if TGP is town, everyone that was correctly town reading him is in fact

suspicious

. Why? Because

majority

couldn't see towny things there, and the

majority

of players are

town

. It seems like town would have agreed that TGP posts are sketchy, but some people don't get it at all? It's

scum indicative

, and I don't need a far-off example to show why:

In the recent Dance Large Theme moderated by Datisi, scum!Ydrasse had the same position about town!Furtive (while he was going down as everyone thought his posts were rather scummy), she was one of the unique slots to say she town read them along with his neighbor MariaR. I believe MariaR was more inclined to town read him given they had a PT/she had access to additional content from him, but even so you could say that tell had around 50% odds of getting scum in that game, getting one scum in two eliminations isn't bad you would always win games like that.

There's three players that I've seen hinting on "not getting" the reads on TGP, be it by finding it all kinda null/not interesting (Aubrey) or straight up town leaning the slot (Klick/Gimli). I believe not doubting TGP here is quite hard as he has:

1) A very weird progression of his read on me
2) Quick hammered but is trying to say he didn't know it wasn't hammer (I don't dislike the quick hammer as much as I dislike him trying to give excuses for it)
3) Doesn't seem to be very engaged towards solving the game, I feel that other than his pushback against me (that was pushing him and he gives up later) he has gone along with the flow of the game, and I think if Fire is town wanting to vote Fire here is kinda a bit scum indicative, because I'm sure that if Fire is town he was the supposed miselimination today after yesterday. That's also a point against Aubrey given he didn't reconsider anything at all in day 2 start even though he himself realizes the Gamma nightkills points to scum more likely than not, not feeling threatened in day 1.

I believe Toto can still be scum if TGP is town, but I think there would still be two scum in my PoE of [Gimli > Klick/Furtive] in that case, so I guess maybe it doesn't matter?

If TGP is town, I wouldn't recommend eliminating Toto.

I'll now try to briefly explain in my next post what I think is scummy about the locked slots in the PoE (Gimli/Furtive) other than TGP (which is about to die anyway and I don't feel it's necessary because I've already talked about it).

[Shirou]

from my partners.

lol

my head is too fuzzy atm

i wonder if anyone will treat this as a "slip"

[Shirou]

Like I don’t get the mindset.
Maybe you just have an inflated ego and are confbiased I just don’t see how it works other wise.

I want to reply on this before going into Gimli/Furtive.

I probably am kinda "confbiased" by this point because I've a good history of knowing more or less how to read Norwee. Could I get it wrong eventually? Can I be wrong right now?

YES

. But mafia is a guessing game and right now all that I know about him points to him being town in this game.

It's true I'm trying to "hide" a bit some of the reasons and not going for ultra breakdown of every little thing I think is from his town meta/playstyle, I don't want to reveal everything about how I read him because then he could fake it all next time, I don't want that because it's pleasant to feel like you've a friend that you can read, it makes the game more fun when I feel at ease trusting him because I trust my methods on reading him so far.

I'll admit, in fact, that although I'm advocating quite a bit for town!Norwee here, he

hasn't

been

very

townie outside of his reaction to my push, but I still think the way he reacted to the push isn't from scum!him and there's some good posts like I pointed out there and here in his ISO. You can disagree, that's fine Toto,

maybe I'm wrong

, but I've no choice but to trust my guns because they've kinda worked so far with him. I'm pushing it confidently because I believe preventing a miselimination on him is very positive for our odds of winning this game and that's it.

I've not been too wrong on him so far (there's a game I suspected him but never confident enough to lim him because there was always "scummier" slots in my vision), but this could be it. My next game could be it. I don't feel like I've properly "failed" on him yet by completely inversely reading his alignment but I could. I'm not infallible.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong? I don't think I'm, but I could be.

One of the best town players in this site that destroyed scum teams in D1 has his left post in the site as a pun that in the very end, he thinks there's quite a bit of

luck

involved in mafia. I agree there's definitely games that even people that know me probably would suspect me because I was playing a bit differently for whatever reason. Mafia is hard, we can only often guess.

I'm guessing Norwee is town here. I've historically good guesses on him I believe. I could still be wrong though I guess.

That's it Toto.

It's hard to be sure of anything in this game but I try to push to the best of my abilities what I think is the correct answer.

[Shirou]

I just got out of a small phase of doubting my read on him there some posts ago. I tried to reconsider and ended up with the conclusion I think he's still town here.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong on Norwee, or who scum is, or on anything in this game. I'm sorry, I'm trying my best.

[Shirou]

I think flipping TGP today to sort Klick isn't a bad idea. Klick was the first slot to proactively town lean/try to "protect" TGP when everyone suspected them and one of the facts of this setup is that historically, scum has often bussed to disassociate. It even has a name ("White Flag Gambit") and was first used by the founder of this site (Mith! Random thank you for creating this site!).

If TGP is scum:

I believe if TGP and Klick were partners, Klick wouldn't give such a confident town read/defense of TGP as he's going down, it's not gonna look good after the flip. Therefore I believe that Klick/TGP aren't partnered, the defense seems too open and straightforward to come from my partners.

ok given that you did actually know this and hold this opinion,

can we go back to discussing why you thought it was ridiculous for toto to think that you could be bussing TGP and you have continued to discredit and dismiss him solely based on the fact that he suspects both of you

Partially because I'm petty and feel like the TGP wagon is partially mine because it was me that kept pushing him and making him post scummy stuff. We may not be wagoning TGP right now if it wasn't for me vs him in Day 1, so to be suspected along with the person you've contributed the most to be suspected, it's a bit unnerving.

Secondly though, because Ari said in this same game something I find very correct, something along the lines of "scum doesn't often chooses the direction of the bus" or so. Can't remember her exact words, but what she basically meant is that scum often isn't the pioneer behind a scum elimination, they often only voice suspicious/weak pushes without truly screaming for their partner death at the start, or start to push them

after

other people are pushing their buddy. It's not often that scum straight up create the wagon on their partner and are so responsible for their death because they want the credit but not to make it too harder for themselves/their buddies.

I've began to poke Klick lately but it's because I think it's one of the slots where I want to look at next depending on the flip and most people had already started to see the issue with TGP. Me constantly pushing TGP here at this point would be a bit of an overkill and I'm starting to think he has some decent odds of being town just for the weird town reads on him by some people as I've commented.

Individually

he's

very very scummy

though.

[Shirou]

Just so you won't beat yourself up too much if tgp flips town, shirou

i'm literally saying there's good odds of tgp flipping town because of other slots you always feels so snarky about me

and you voted tgp because there was already a wagon there and there was a wagon on tgp because i created a wagon on it in D1 by 1v1'ing him and it ended up with him scumposting

do i sound egoistical? probably hell yeah sorry?

am i objectively wrong? i don't think so??

how is it wrong to say i created the foundation of the tgp wagon

[Shirou]

ok i got distracted for a bit back to casing Gimli/Furtive

[Shirou]

Just so you won't beat yourself up too much if tgp flips town, shirou

i'm literally saying there's good odds of tgp flipping town because of other slots you always feels so snarky about me

and you voted tgp because there was already a wagon there and there was a wagon on tgp because i created a wagon on it in D1 by 1v1'ing him and it ended up with him scumposting

do i sound egoistical? probably hell yeah sorry?

am i objectively wrong? i don't think so??

how is it wrong to say i created the foundation of the tgp wagon

There was no wagon on TGP when I voted him

VOTE: TGP

VOTE: TGP

CSF later unvotes to let Klick catch-up and lots of slots are talking about TGP as a potential vote

i actually thought i had voted tgp today before klick as well though, i think i forgot to do it or was considering other solves already given the Gamma NK

p-edit yeah you found it faster i guess

[Shirou]

VOTE: Gimli

[Shirou]

I was townreading TGP

ever so slightly

for his D1 iso

feels a bit like bullshit ngl

I'm townreading golden paradox for their push on shirou (which was imo organic inside that very same post with a previous push that led to this one and the vote).

Also in context with tgp's later townread on shirou I think it's not a slot we should be flipping today

Tgp is probably town for that.

Agreed with this sentiment

TGP is barely posting, I liked his D1 progression on shirou, but there isn't much more than that. I feel it's town too but without much evidence.

Idk if TGP's posts now are towny or just crafted to look that way

and then you vote him

*waining fast

Phoneposting sucks

AlsoVOTE: TGP

The more I look at these reads the more I feel it doesn't come from town

You start town reading them rather strongly and then drop it, kinda feels like it's because you see that he's too much of a viable miselim or something. maybe fated to bus idk.

[Shirou]

i want to kill Gimli in my heart

but my head says that even if tgp is town he goes first because it's just better for the solve or something

it felt so nice to have an order of lims

p-edit: i quoted everything i could find with "TGP" on a CTRL+F?

[Shirou]

The gamma kill makes sense in a world where tgp is scum if I skimmed it right

I mean I'm just joining the conversation

Otoh I feel more inclined to go paradox today given how many slots are townier

toto is town, probably—i'm happy to include them in my townbloc. they are wrong about me and i think shirou but not in directions where i would be like "hey, yes, this is very Convenient for you, this Benefits you." they're pushing against two townies. also 1596 is plausibly not out of scumtoto's range but they get townpoints for them

Can you expand on your toto townread? I'm not sure I follow this. How is it not convenient for scum if they're pushing against townies?

gimli / lucian slot is lean town, don't have strong takes here but a) unlike shirou i think it is much easier for scum to SR me / go with the flow then stick their necks out or wtv and be like "you guys are town

Who's townreading you, me or Lucian before me? Is that the only reason you're townreading my slot?

Wrt my townread on you, it's waiting fast. I don't like your reads post and I think you're writing this to appear towny instead of being town. Don't see the solvyness in it

i guess there is this

[Shirou]

now I feel like i'm too tired to properly case Gimli/Furtive and it's too late and i need to go sleep

forgive me?

maybe my solve is all trash anyway though and you should ignore me

see you all

p-edit: this was typed before the above post from Gimli to be clear, idk not limming TGP here first feels wrong even if i think Gimli makes the most sense in general on being scum

i just can't wrap my head around some progressions from tgp

VOTE: TGP

if tgp is town gimli needs to go tomorrow as i said in my post earlier, that's it for me in this dayphase

[Shirou]

We have three days for you to post your case

nope, done efforting in mafia games for awhile

haven't been doing pretty important stuff to effort on them recently, maximum i'm doing the rest of this dayphase is voting or saying a thought or two

[Shirou]

@mod V/LA until 24th/tuesday

[Shirou]

You need to case furtive especially if you think he is mafia

[Shirou]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: gimli

it's either you or tgp today to me

your choice

do you like just have a bunch of anime gifs or do you go to like anime-gif.com and type in "shaking head no"

i search for them on the spot yes

[Shirou]

I think TGP is at E-1 now btw

[Shirou]

[Shirou]

there's really something bugging me in this game oh my god

would i be throwing or hero'ing by saying it idk anymore

i am curious enough to ask i suppose,

so,

what's bugging you?

I've doubted a bit but I'm back at...Norwee is town in my world view.

[Shirou]

i can't believe klick robbed me of the hammer i was planning to rob from toto

i thought about hammering last night but pina would complain about me "rushing" again

i'm emotionally destroyed rn

[Shirou]

[Shirou]

hm

just in case it's not hammer yet

VOTE: TGP

[Shirou]

@shirou reread my iso, seriously think about it, and then say out loud that i'm scum and fire's town

like, you're better than this and you know it

like idk this post feels like it comes from scum more often than not

i don't even think fire is always town here as much as i think his partners are in the PoE i already explained that

[Shirou]

tbh i'm starting to feel like fire is scum with tgp but it can also be scum!tgp way of wifom'ing this game

i just hope there's another scum in my PoE if that's the case

that's it from me i guess

fire/furtive/tgp could make sense as a team

[Shirou]

this game gets weirder the longer it goes on

i would like to wrap this up today, i'm a bit more confident on myself given my first strong scum read TGP was de facto scum, but at the same time i'm puzzled on why i'm still alive if my PoE is anywhere right

but again

i was right on TGP and left alive in day 2 anyway

i'm not sure what is the scum team supposed plan anymore

do they even have a plan in fact...

[Shirou]

there's things that are a bit clear or very likely to me now, like Gamma being killed because she was indeed suspecting TGP quite a lot but it wasn't something that would look obviously bad on TGP like me

however some of them also only is evident to me because i know my alignment or if you town read me from a third person pov

if you do a leap of faith and consider me town (which honestly i feel like i almost "deserve" a bit given certain things TGP said like "Shirou is too good as town to be left alive" or "Shirou you are better than that and you know it", or even his weird ass progression on me), i think those night kills are pretty curious to wonder about

[Shirou]

if shirou is town, he is going to get NKed by scum in the next couple of days, because they are too powerful for that to not be true, and the WIFOM isn't worth it, but we do get the benefit of a strong townie for at least a couple days, and for the NK to be Shirou as opposed to the second most powerful townie or whatever.

[Shirou]

i need to think about this game

bye for now

[Shirou]

lmao was that a scumclaim?

yes toto

my partner actually described how if i don't get NK'd i'm supposedly scum and i didn't get NK'd

it's not the scum team plan to hope to somehow suspect me/CSF some other slots that are needed to have enough mislims here if my PoE is somewhat right, it was just TGP scum slipping our plan in the main thread

[Shirou]

CSF HI

I'm a bit paranoid of scum being in my town leans given I'm still here but blegh, should trust myself for at least one or two more days given I was right on TGP from the start

what are your top 2 or 3 votes rn CSF?

[Shirou]

I think we shouldn't touch Klick I would backflip if not even one scum bussed here

there has to be a busser

[Shirou]

I'm not sure I want to go for that rather than TGP just planting the seed for a guaranteed mislim on fire

but I do think Fire can easily be scum here after all at this rate

I thought Ari slot only made sense to be scum with TGP after the self-vote, because maybe she thought TGP slot had a better shoot at endgaming than her own so she didn't want to wagon TGP with me to survive

and alas...TGP was indeed scum.

I think my pool right now is [Fire, Furtive, X]

X is either Toto or Gimli

[Shirou]

I would do it to wifom people on voting fire in the next day if fire is town

I'm just not sure if I trust scum!TGP to realize this is a bad thing to do if fire is his partner because it feels too forced

like, I kinda trust TGP but at the same time they were pretty openly scummy at times...

idk this game is so fucking weird

[Shirou]

I kinda feel like Toto hesitating so much to murder TGP may be kinda town indicative after all on hindsight i don't know

heart of steel?

vs Gimli that had a "town lean" on TGP but quickly was convinced into voting

maybe [Furtive, Fire, Gimli] is better than [Furtive, Fire, Toto]?

[Shirou]

I think right now I would do

Furtive > Fire > Gimli

if I could

Furtive confidence on TGP flipping scum was a bit too much:

Team solve wise my reads lean towards TGP being town, but I think I'm more likely wrong and TGP is scum and Fire/you could be town

I SKIMMED THIS GAME.

But the main thing is I checked the main wagon (TGP) and yeah they need to go. Judge me on THAT.

TGP is flipping today.

The flip will be red.

You will be judged.

We all will.

Do not be fooled. This setup is based around scum not being able to bus. Why are people defending TGP when they need to die based on their awful posting and tone? Put your vote back on and reap the rewards.

'oh wow furtive are you saying Klick/giuseppina scum now? stop flip-flopping'

We'll cross that bridge later.

To all the other town, read TGP in isolation and block out the voices. Then vote them.

We are close to the top of the mountain, do not turn around.

We have 11 players now. Vote off mafia today, and the game's basically ours. I believe in this vote enough to stake my life in this game/reputation (don't really have one but meh) on it

I'm going to bed. If TGP has been hammered when I wake up, I'll be happy. If they haven't, I'll be annoyed. If the wagon has gone, I'll be livid.

[Shirou]

like look at those posts and tell me furtive isn't bussing

idk i think if we speed lim Furtive we have decent odds of just wrapping up this game

i really want to wrap up this game so that i can go apologize and meme in post-game with Una

[Shirou]

@shurou, Yeah I didn’t get the impression that TGP was comfortable playing as scum

That’s why I think this might’ve been a fuck up on his part

It could be an anti anti associative (pauses to sip wine). as someone else said, it did seem like TGP was leaning into it a bit at the end. I just don’t see how TGP is supposed to recover from that besides leaning into it if they are indeed SvS and people were calling them out on it, if that makes sense.

yeah

/shrug

I think I would just do Furtive > Fire here and if it doesn't end the game, god help us by then

[Shirou]

VOTE: Furtive

[Shirou]

i really want to wrap up this game so that i can go apologize and meme in post-game with Una

You make me paranoid about you when you say things like "I just want to meme with *flipped town* post-game.

Norwee

just vote Furtive/Fire please

If you're town without my help I could have left you be mislimmed here

look at how TGP felt the pressure with me and was saying I was "good town" and "you're better than that". Do you think that comes from partners? I also established his wagon in d1 and we would have killed him in d1 if it wasn't for you know what.

I just want this game to

end

or for me to be proven wrong at this point. The more the slots in my PoE post, the scummier they are.

Even if I'm wrong on them and scum is somewhere in my town reads or so I simply have understood in a few minutes of thinking about the past day posts + this day opening that I just can't get [Furtive, Fire, Gimli] out of my head and I need to flip there

it's so boring to be here in a game I feel like is kinda solved

[Shirou]

the fact I'm not killed means I'm either scum siding hard or scum kinda disrespects me, and if there is also players that think I'm not very good it's prob in [Furtive, Gimli, Fire] due to dance game

StD was also more than suspecting Klick, voting Gimli quite a bit there, and Gimli is curiously town reading both Furtive/Fire as well

[Shirou]

Fine, god.
VOTE: Furtive

...

are you angry with me?

sorry

[Shirou]

scum kinda disrespects me

If scum is disrespecting you we can round it down to Toto ultra scum.

idk I feel like the dance game people think less of me than even Toto

like crack theory is that pina is scum maybe or something

but like, am i ever considering that first before killing with fire some of my PoE

no way they are scumposting so much...like if Pina is scum here rather than them she kinda deserves to win A LOT more

[Shirou]

dude StD was killed how is that not weird rather than universal town read Pina

[Shirou]

i think the scum team is prob one of Furtive/Fire + Gimli?

if it's Furtive/Fire they need to stop bussing seriously it would remind me of Double Mafia where i got the team wrong bc they were bussing one away from victory (similar white flag mechanic)

of course, they lost due to it

but idk i think we could lose this/me be wrong here

just would be a really weird game to me tho

[Shirou]

gotta go now hopefully you'll vote Furtive as well @CSF

if by any chance you think it's me + Fire or something I promise to do Fire tomorrow if Furtive flips town

[Shirou]

i am never gonna get used to this look

mood

I think I'll eventually get used to it though, changes to old things is always weird but dunno, I want to believe it's for the better and we'll get used to it despite what our brains tell us right now

[Shirou]

And if we can get enough not scum together AND accept a few players as town e.g.

me

/CSF/giu/Norwee for instance, then there could be a mech solve where we vote out [x,y] where one HAS to be mafia

Spoiler: press X to

[Shirou]

maybe it's Furtive/Toto

who knows I don't I just know there's prob scum in my PoE and it's hard to find motivation to post because I think people in my PoE are clearly scumposting but votes aren't being thrown yet

[Shirou]

do you guys really think that abnormal confidence Furtive gets on scum!TGP when he begins to get poked by others is normal?

It's very likely not

He was trying to shade other slots for not voting TGP even before the flip

It all looks like almost crystal clear scum agenda of lining up miseliminations due to his partner flips

I believe he also unvoted me only because people weren't too into a shirou wagon atm, I think if he was town and really believed his read, he would stand his ground more and explain why I'm scum here in his view

I don't care if you guys go along with me or not Furtive is still scum to me regardless and I'm gonna insist on him, but look at Furtive instead, he's trying to gauge who is viable or not here and clear himself for the flip

p-edit lol

[Shirou]

maybe it's Furtive/Toto

who knows I don't I just know there's prob scum in my PoE and it's hard to find motivation to post because I think people in my PoE are clearly scumposting but votes aren't being thrown yet

All I have done is replaced in and led on mafia. How can you possibly justify your absurd view?

do u guys not understand

this needs to die pls

I literally single-handedly led on TGP D1 when no one else believed on it and he's scum reading me anyway and thinks fire looks better than me when fire/ari slot was what made us not eliminate TGP D1

It doesn't look real

Can we just win the game by limming Furtive and if wrong Fire?

Please and thank you

If somehow that doesn't win the game I can effort here but it does win the game in my head I would be beyond confused if it doesn't

[Shirou]

please do omgus because if me flipping makes you/Fire go down next I think it may not be the worst deal although I want you guys eliminated first of course

Like

do I need to case myself on why I'm not scum here given how TGP treated me?

Do you really think that random town read after "suspecting me" is an attempt at distancing? He just realized he couldn't touch me yet

[Shirou]

VOTE: Fire

[Shirou]

You guys are getting a transformation on LIVE

prepare yourself for my ultimate form...

[Shirou]

I can easily vote Fire first before Furtive, I would kinda rather do furtive though

[Shirou]

VOTE: Fire

Hmmm

nah

VOTE: Furtive

The way furtive approached my slot just doesn't feel like town, it's like TGP telling me "I should know better"

[Shirou]

His first assumption is that I'm throwing rather than thinking I'm trying to miseliminate him as scum

it just doesn't align with his supposed suspicious of me that he isn't considering that possibility at all

it's all just "gamethrowing, bad read, etc" as if he knows I'm town

[Shirou]

I hadn't read much of page 101~103 before, it confirms my scum read on him I think

[Shirou]

I can't be bothered to try anymore in this game unless Furtive/Fire both flip town

You're all getting lazy meme-y shirou soon

[Shirou]

I'm fine with voting Norwee based only off Shirou saying that they're scum and that they have historically correct private meta tells in this regard if Shirou puts actual (instead of perceived) skin in the game (e.g. by committing to immediately self vote d2 and not defend themselves).

ok you know what that's such obvious dumb bullshit. if someone is so powerful that they would make us lose as mafia and is not an insane asset to town then they should not continue to be in the game, and either we should try to reduce their power as much as possible or just elim them.

if shirou is town, he is going to get NKed by scum in the next couple of days, because they are too powerful for that to not be true, and the WIFOM isn't worth it, but we do get the benefit of a strong townie for at least a couple days, and for the NK to be Shirou as opposed to the second most powerful townie or whatever.

..but god, you're just town aren't you Shirou

UNVOTE:

@shirou reread my iso, seriously think about it, and then say out loud that i'm scum and fire's town

like, you're better than this and you know it

before not efforting here anymore most likely, I just wanted to quote this once more and plainly state:

I'm town. TGP was clearly feeling my pressure on him back there saying I was a "powerful townie" even when I never said that (I think Norwee commented something ~kinda~ similar but not really straight up "good town"). He also clearly wanted me limmed but obviously couldn't get it so he did a 180º in his read on me.

Furtive > Fire > one of Toto/Gimli

I'm backflipping post game if it doesn't win this

there's some crack theories like scum!pina but idk I'm too lazy to that shit and my PoE is too scummy for me to reconsider them as well

[Shirou]

TGP was clearly feeling my pressure on him back there saying I was a "powerful townie" even when I never said that (I think Norwee commented something ~kinda~ similar but not really straight up "good town").

this also isn't really true. the post where

he said that was in response to ari saying

that you would be likely nk'd as town and likely win as mafia. it seems like a stretch to assume that he decided you were powerful town due to your pressure on him

Not true. He posted it in 1176 while Ari was arguing with Klick in the page before. He was trying to present a "case" for why we should lim me even if he didn't have reasons to call me scum.

here is the case for shirou:

if shirou is town,

he is going to get NKed by scum in the next couple of days,

because they are too powerful for that to not be true

, and the WIFOM isn't worth it,

but we do get the benefit of a strong townie for at least a couple days

, and for the

NK to be Shirou as opposed to the second most powerful townie

or whatever.
if shirou is scum, he has enough control over the gamestate to consistently get mislims and survive until elo by default, and shirou being scum tilts the scales a lot
in favor of scum wins.

I believe he brought all this fake news about me being "powerful" as town because he was feeling the pressure a bit yes (I think I'm ok/decent but nothing special), but also he was clearly trying to set me up as suspicious if I lived too much. TGP just wanted my head for some reason.

[Shirou]

Fire has just trash tier narratives about things that didn't happen like "shirou trying to frame Ari for the TGP lim not happening"

WHEN IT WAS ARI HERSELF THAT PREFERRED TO SELF VOTE RATHER THAN VOTE TGP

THIS IS FUCKING

BULLSHIT

FURTIVE ISO ALSO SMELLS LIKE BULLSHIT

P-EDIT: YES IN THAT POST HE WAS REPLYING TO ARI BUT IN MINE HE WAS CLEARLY CONSIDERING ME GOOD AS TOWN FOR WHATEVER REASON

MAYBE BECAUSE I GOT HIM??

[Shirou]

I also quoted the post that I quote again

Fire you've just been trying to pedal bullshit narratives along with Furtive

Furtive "I'm town for having pushed TGP but Fire ?apparently? isn't and neither Shirou is (the excuse for me is not having read the game. at least there's an excuse)"

but also btw Furtive always tells me that I'm "throwing" as if he knows I'm town when I shouldn't be a town read for him

0 sense

[Shirou]

You guys can't keep me, or Klick, or whatever forever from the lim pool because if at least one of you are scum, which I do believe is the answer, you need 3 mislims here and there just isn't quite enough otherwise

so you've been trying to shade me and Klick and others while trying to make yourself look better even if it means you need to have nonsense progressions or arguments that is hard to believe you actually believe on it

I had clearly quoted TGP calling me good town in my post but you decided to pick one where it wasn't quite like that to try to counter the argument

p-edit: then vote him.

[Shirou]

P-EDIT: YES IN THAT POST HE WAS REPLYING TO ARI BUT IN MINE HE WAS CLEARLY CONSIDERING ME GOOD AS TOWN FOR WHATEVER REASON

MAYBE BECAUSE I GOT HIM??

or maybe because ari said you were town who gets early nk'd in the post that he was directly responding to when he first brought up the idea??

like there's no reason to think otherwise, the chain of events is extremely clear

yes Fire

as clear as me "trying to frame Ari for not going to TGP" when she herself decided to self-vote instead.

Your arguments are absolutely clearly honest.

[Shirou]

I already explained why I think Klick isn't likely to be mafia here considering the context and there's

"why you stopped considering Klick??"

p-edit: I never said that was the

unique

reason he called me that.

[Shirou]

you're asking me to consider voting Klick because scum doesn't have enough mislims

ok

considered it

my wincon says it's a bad idea

done

at least one scum bussed and we're killing it

[Shirou]

revisited StD ISO and he was voting/suspecting fire quite a bit

VOTE: fire

blegh

I'll go to the path of less resistance I suppose

[Shirou]

I think this game & Dance game worsened my existential sadness by a lot...

I feel like in both I tried to read too much the associatives/anti-associatives and understand what was the entire "scum plan" rather than just look/judge slots individually. It pains me so hard that I had much better reads

before

a scum flip in both games, @TGP fake associative wifom completely worked on regards to fire to me, and just assuming scum never defends their partner made me

once again

incorrectly clear a slot I didn't like that much previously...

[

Norwe

] - town read
[

CSF, Pina

] - town lean
[

StD, Fire

] - nulltown
[

Toto

,

Gimli

,

Aubrey

] - null
[---] - nullscum
[

Klick, TGP

] - scum lean
[---] - scum read

Out of the above null pool I also disliked Gimli/Aubrey the most:

idk man I feel like

Gimli

can't stop scum posting

I look at

TGP

and feel like "hm wow this is so scummy, it's prob scum right?", I look at

Klick

's posts and think "oh, this is more of a ~deep~ wolf, scummy but hides it well...maybe red yeah?"

w/

Gimli

the unique thing that goes through my head is

"scumposting, scumposting and hm, more scumposting"

idk maybe [

TGP/Klick/Gimli

] is a better guaranteed scum pool than [

TGP/Klick

/

Aubrey

]?

I just want to register that just like how Panic Room made me give up on meta because I'm

horrible

at it most of the time, I think this game plus dance game is gonna make me run away from associative/anti-associative tells like "scum almost always bus", "scum almost never defends partners openly", "scum probably does this in this situation with a partner" and etc. I'm clearly

horrible

at it apparently as well.

I increasingly am not even sure I've the motivation to play mafia anymore though, I'm just devastated and ashamed. Going from having the entire scum team in the lim pool on the basis of individual reads and looking like a clown by the end tunneling two townies because I'm once again trying to pull out of my ass the modus operandis of the scum team...I'm speechless. I lost quite a bit of sleep trying to solve this game and it just ends like a cruel joke once again I guess.

[Shirou]

This is my readlist so far with the slots in the "null" range perhaps not being truly null but I want to see how they'll act after my "cases" to decide their placement.

Toto/Gimli/Aubrey weren't true null for me at that point but I wanted to see how they would react to my klick push I guess

that's it for me I guess, thanks for modding @petapan

[Shirou]

Overthinking has been the death of me in recent games and it's worse looking back when you had proper leads, just to dump them later on.

It's technically overthinking yes you're correct but I didn't consider it quite "overthinking" because there were back then, what I believed "solid reasons" to change my mind. It wasn't just me losing faith on it randomly, I cleared Klick because he came openly defending TGP when TGP was about go down, and it didn't work very much and made people suspecting him more, so I thought that probably didn't come from partners and in my 5 years here so far I'm not sure I had ever seen someone defend their partner so openly like that as they are near death. If it was for the WIFOM it clearly worked on me.

I thought at least one scum had also positioned themselves well by bussing given how much pressure TGP was getting since D1 (given how common bussing the most suspected partner is usually?), so it made me later on focus in [Fire, Furtive] and leave [Toto, Gimli] to "later" because they hadn't exactly bussed too hard/positioned themselves too well for the flip, not to mention that TGP plan seemed to be cooking a mislim on me as Klick apparently also seems to have confessed, so I thought one other scum had to be trying to associate me + TGP from the start which made me again look at Fire/Furtive and think it was a cohesive scum team plan.

It made...so much logical sense to me. But it seems to be a failure as a method to scum hunt to think there's this overarching logic about the scumteam play I suppose...

About your other points like posting too much and caring about being "right"...it's probably good advice I'm just not sure I could realistically follow it. I'm lazy and don't even try on most things but in the few things I try I'm self-pressured to do the best I can at

any

and

all

expenses for self-satisfaction first before anything else. Maybe I should just focus on something else to do at my spare time or something, I don't know.

Either way thanks for the feedback @unwnd. I appreciate it.

[Shirou]

Shirou, your reads were generally really good and you were obvtown enough for me to recognise it despite you wanting me dead. You were definitely a big reason why town won

I like to boast a bit when success is achieved but also think there's a need to self-criticize when things go wrong. I think even if I was mostly correct on D1/D2, the most important part in the end is the final result and I was definitely being an obstacle to town wincon by the last day. I appreciate the kindness though.

I

i quite enjoyed playing with you for what it's worth - i just disagreed with your approach at times and sometimes strongly enough for me to feel it was possibly coming from mafia (patience is town's friend) - and i just wanted to say that my replacement had nothing to do with you (or furtiveglance who also speculated about my replacement in a pretty ??? way - i had asked petapan to replace me before furtiveglance presented his scumread of me or whatever), it's just i had to stay up until 6ish in the morning my time to post after i finished with my other obligations the night before and i checked the game while i was eating on break and there were a lot of pages and it was looking like i would have to again and the rest of my week going forward looked very similar and it is unreasonable for me to continue to ask everyone to wait for me/the weekend

as i told petapan i probably should not have signed up as i knew it was likely i would become busy around this time i just really love playing

sorry again and hopefully i will see y'all in a few months

I see, it's good to know I wasn't the reason for the replace out at least. I'm still not sure my natural impatience makes for the right gamestate for you to feel comfortable playing but I hope to see you again one day as well pina.

[Shirou]

shirou, nobody is going to have perfect reads, that's impossible.

I know it's mathematically impossible to always have general tells that works every game rather than very specific player tells (basically "meta") that have a higher chance of doing the job right (but still, sometimes, failing anyway), however the fact that forum mafia is such a hard game to "always" be right in is probably part of the reason it makes me want to attempt being right on it anyway. If it's not a borderline impossible mission/goal it doesn't get me as fired up...

I think this along with the rest of your point on me is the

reasonable

and

right

take on all this. The impression I've of you so far is of a very down-to-earth collected person that is the voice of reason in many situations. Unfortunately though...I'm just not sure I'm reasonable. Maybe Firebringer was right about me being a bit crazy after all huh.

Thanks for the feedback though.

Shirou

I think you played really well

and I don't think you should feel ashamed of being wrong, it's just human to be wrong and this is just a silly game.

I hope you feel better soon.

Hm, I kinda disagree on that part but again thanks Ari. I may have been a bit too dramatic with "devastated", I'm quite ok, just disappointed and reflecting. It's human to be wrong I just have been a bit too wrong three times in a how and it's starting to bother me.

[Shirou]

Players who lack proficiency wouldn't be working with so many angles in the first place. The fact you have layered ideas gives you an advantage as there may arise a situation where your proficiency will

allow

others to see something that they might have missed. I also believe that you are quite good at explaining your logic with is an absolute plus. You weren't on the mark this time and that's OK. I really suggest a Notes PT or just textdumping somewhere else so you have a place to stare at your posts before pressing 'Submit.' It really helps!

Thanks again unwnd, and I did have a Notes PT here btw, I may just need to use it more rather than scramble my thoughts through the thread at times. There's a lot of posts I end up forgetting the context for and stuff that I say in the thread that it's not very optimal since it's a bit of a passing thought (like my Norwee random suspicions since I felt like at certain moments the NKs made more sense if I was pocketed by scum).

Dunno if I'll release it, there's some funny moment like me admitting in capslock that I was quite scared of being wrong on fire but deciding to tunnel him anyway, and saying along the lines of "this game may make more sense if fire is town but it doesn't make a lot of sense so far so I'm just gonna stick with it" while I was thinking about the NKs, but in general yeah, I didn't use it enough imo. Maybe it's a better idea to spam more there rather than main thread. Dunno if I can resist my urges though.

[Shirou]

Im sorry if I trolled you during the game Shirou, its kind part of how I read people.

Nah I didn't mind the "kill anime" thing at all, it was funny