Mini 707: Cops and Robbers Mafia (Game Over)

[Mizzy]

Holy hell, it creeps me out, too.

Vote: Tisp

for sounding like lisp.

[Mizzy]

Unvote. Vote: Fuzzyman

for his insolence.

And his lack of a sense of humor.

And his username (I'm the only fuzzy one here, damnit.)

And his avatar. (Fucking paperclip, seriously.)

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, were any of the reasons you gave to vote Fuzzyman meant seriously?

Not the ones I posted, no. But I do have real reasons:

His #16 which came off to me as trying to actively find a way to end random voting as early as possible. Ending the random phase in and of itself isn't scummy but I find the way he did it to be scummy. He found the first remotely questionable thing (which was a huge stretch and taking things seriously that probably shouldn't have been) and used that as his excuse.

His #18 really bothers me. Firstly, it seems that he has no clue about random voting and why it's useful and then tries to use his flawed understanding as reasoning. Secondly he uses a "vote for me" play which is a terrible thing to do this early in the game, or at all in my opinion. He said to vote for him (even if the reason why didn't match up) and so I did.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and by the way, I feel Ether is town because she called out my flimsy vote, voted me, and then asked about it. That's scumhunting, folks.

[Mizzy]

Her mentioning the word town doesn't sell me that her comment wasn't "stupid and irreverent" or not a joke vote. Not quite sure how you make that leap, would like to hear it (I guess, it seems pretty weak) since it seems to be the only pillar you currently have for keeping your vote on Ether and establishing that it's a serious vote.

I dunno. Frankly, I've always felt that once you throw around adjectives like that, the person speaking has a goal. I was probably wrong.

Mizzy: My dictionary lists "insolent" as "contempuously rude". At what point did I fit this description? And what bearing does it have on the likelyhood of me being a robber?[/quote]

Ether tends to act that way regardless of alignment. By that, I mean she uses adjectives like "insolent." She's just that way. And her goal, I'm sure, is to win, no matter what side she's on. All of us should have the same goal, which means that everyone's actions in this game can safely be assumed to be for the purpose of meeting that goal.

I don't feel that you are scummy based on anything Ether has said or done, and I don't feel that she is town because of anything you have said or done. The two opinions are completely unrelated. I feel you are scummy because of reasons I already gave.

You have not responded to all of my case points, either. I feel that the second paragraph of my #39 is the stronger set of points and I am surprised you have completely left out any answer to those.

[Mizzy]

Green Crayons:

I'm going to answer your questions but I want to ask - why are you asking these and not allowing him to do so? Curiosity? If you wanted the answers, you could have instead pointed him out to ask these and not done so yourself, which would have been a lot more beneficial, I think.

Using something remotely questionable as an excuse to step away from entirely random voting isn't a bad thing - though that seems to be your sentiment here. It isn't what a lynch should be based off of, by and stretch of the imagination, but it certainly is a step in the right direction. For example, his bad logic and questionable reasoning have supplied us with plenty of quasi-useful posts that are moving us away from random voting. I would like to see your argument as to why stretched logic to move the discussion towards something productive isn't as good as randomness on page one.

Actually, I don't mind when one person pulls away from random voting, or even a few, for valid reasons, but the way he did it was a pretty big distraction. I don't feel that his reasons for doing so were even remotely justified. Taking something obviously meant to be a joke an trying to make a big deal out of it isn't a good reason at all. It's like he took the first thing even remotely possible to finger someone for and went with it, whether it be helpful or not. It also had the air of being defensive, also unhelpful.

Rereading post 18 readily displays his apparent disdain for random voting, but I don't see how you're pulling out from that post that he doesn't have a clue about beginning game random votes. Furthermore, I would appreciate if you would flush out more your contention that he uses this "misunderstanding" of random voting as reasoning. What misunderstanding? Reasoning for what? As far as I can tell, he's keeping his vote on Ether not because she was random voting (so any misunderstanding he may have re: randomness doesn't come into play), but because she was allegedly attempting to slip buzzwords into her rhetoric to make her look like town.

What he said:

>:O Didn't I just say that I wanted people to vote based on things other than usernames? Really, it's even worse than random voting, since we all probably picked a name when we joined solely for the purpose of manipulation. If you would be voting for me in a world where everybody's username is a random ten-numeral string, then vote for me now.

Random voting is useful because it isn't random (unless you use some sort of dice roll or randomizing algorithm to do so.) We get information from the people we pick to vote for and the bullshit (or not) reasons for doing so. It's psychology. Any information we get is integral and should be valued, if taken with a grain of salt. That's why I think he doesn't understand random voting; because he doesn't really value the results.

We will ALL use language that denotes us as being townies and some of us, like Ether, will use sarcasm and jokes in their posting. It seems silly to me to dwell on it so soon when she hasn't done it very much. It would have been far better to wait for more evidence before bringing it up and possibly ruining the chance for more evidence, if there was to be any at all.

Most importantly, I feel that Fuzzy is keeping his vote on Ether because he didn't like the word "insolence." I think he has

emotional reasons

for it, i.e. being defensive, and not valid logic.

I agree with this point, to an extent. I'm always suspicious of "vote for me" tag lines or any incarnation of the sentiment/tactic. However, taken in context it looks like he was trying to tell Ether (specifically) that she should vote him if she has an actual reason, not just because of random name crap. It falls in line with the rest of his posts and what apparently is an extreme dislike of random voting.

It's also rather hypocritical of him in my view. He is voting Ether because of her "townie" rhetoric but yet he himself uses a gambit often used to make the speaker appear more town.

Admitting to turning a blind eye to circumstance, and willfully taking the snippet of his post out of its context - just so you could put a vote on him. Odd.

I was going to vote him anyway, it might as well have some shitty reasons as well as some good ones. I mean, hell, Fuzzy shouldn't be allowed to be the only one who votes for craplogic.

Does this strike anyone else as a cousin to the "congratulating the doctor" tell? A "congratulating the successful scumhunter?" Also, it just seems weird that she would immediately undercut her previous post by stating her vote was flimsy in the first place.

Does this strike anyone else as a player asking for permission to vote or to accuse from the rest of town to justify his actions in case he is wrong?

[Mizzy]

Actually, after having thought about it for a bit more, Green Crayon's question strikes me as worse than it did originally. The whole breakdown of his question is just plain horrible.

Does this strike anyone else as a cousin to the "congratulating the doctor" tell? A "congratulating the successful scumhunter?" Also, it just seems weird that she would immediately undercut her previous post by stating her vote was flimsy in the first place.

It's a charismatic plea for anyone who will listen that provides its own answer. It, in short, is a leading question. It calls upon the all-poweful "hey look, a scumtell!" which is just plain bullshit because scumtells rarely work. It also contains manipulation of what I have said to fit his own thoughts/needs and is really a call to action and a request for permission and justification all in one.

No, my vote wasn't flimsy...one reason for my vote was flimsy but the rest of the reasons for the vote are sound.

Major FoS: Green Crayons

for asking questions that weren't his responsibility to ask and in doing so indirectly protecting Fuzz, giving Fuzz easy-outs by arguing my attacks on him for him, manipulating what I said, and in the span of 3 sentences, cramming in some of the scummiest play I've seen in ages.

Any more BS from you and I'll be moving my vote.

I still expect to see some responses from Fuzzy about what I have said because I am not about to let Green do all his fighting for him.

[Mizzy]

I will respond to your post when I have the time, I was just made aware that we are in "all-hands-on-deck" mode at work and I will need to work a shitload of overtime and weekends until further notice. Sorry I hate major releases.

[Mizzy]

Oh, as to when to respect a response, I am hoping that I can do that at some point in the next few days but I may have to break things apart into small chunks to answer them. If you have anything you want responses to before other things, can you let me know which?

[Mizzy]

@Mizzy: I didn't try to get Ether to vote for me for the vote's sake. She stated that she would be voting for me if not for my name, I thought names having influence on votes was stupid, so I stood up for that principle. What don't you get?

I get it, I just think that it was pointless at best and potentially harmful at worst. You have your opinions and I have mine.

[Mizzy]

You should make answering my questions a higher priority, obv.

What questions?

[Mizzy]

Sorry for the triple post, I am so exhausted right now, lol.

...Uhm, because he can't read my mind and the only way I could have "pointed him out" to ask my questions would be to state them. Openly. In the thread. So he could, what? Repeat word for word what I just posted, but directed at you instead of himself?

What I was suggesting was pointing out to him what you were curious about and then seeing what he would do about it. You might have gotten a ton more information about it, and then get your questions and comments responded to, to boot. That was my point.

[Mizzy]

bEther:

Honestly, if you were scum, I'd expect you to lay low a little bit and not call quite so much attention to yourself. I didn't mention my real reasons for my vote on purpose; to see who asked me about them and in what order/context. The way you did it pointed you out to me as being probtown. I could be wrong but hey, first impressions and all that.

The middle one I won't respond to because there doesn't seem to be anything to respond to.

And the last one I would urge you to re-read what I said, slowly, with a stiff drink to wash it all down with.

[Mizzy]

I'll give her a chance to respond, but I'm tempted to vote for her.

On what grounds, exactly, or is it just that a big wagon looks really tempting right now?

[Mizzy]

Actually, now I feel like if I had voted yesterday, it would mainly have been emotional. I do think GC does raise some good points though.

Actually, I feel better about you having admitted about the emotional-vote thing. Emotional voting happens a lot and most people like to pretend they aren't capable of it.

I'm trying to respond when I can, if anyone has a question they want answered nownownow then tell me and I can do so.

[Mizzy]

1 is unscummy, 10 is scummy. Green Crayons (6), Fuzzy (6), q21 (2).

[Mizzy]

q21's vote comes off a little bit wagony but I am going to wait to see some more content from him before I make up my mind any farther than the 2. You already know about why Fuzzy and I already said why about Green.

[Mizzy]

What's the default number on that scale?

0 or 1 since I have little or no opinion yet on others.

[Mizzy]

unvote; vote:Mizzy

since she has failed to rebound against GC's arguments in post 49.

"What part of piece by piece, very little real time due to IRL so tell me which parts are most important so I can answer" do you fail to understand? Also, that's an OMGUS vote with a lame cover story for it.

[Mizzy]

For reference, how long do you expect to be limited access on your job?

Late nights and weekends for 2 weeks-ish, not counting holidays.

[Mizzy]

if you cant play maybe you should seek a replacement. cuz this 2 weeks thing could just be bs to lurk and or pick and choose when you wanna jump in...

Oh, I can play, it will just be limited. Perhaps you should play a little more

yourself

.

And yeah, the work thing is pretty serious. We found out that one of our off-shore satellite offices dropped the ball on an entire project and now I have to do the job of 7 people in a week that they had months to do originally. I can still post and play but I need help to focus on the important things and can't banter. I don't lurk, trust me.

[Mizzy]

Actually, at this point, I think I have addressed everything in the big post of yours whether directly or indirectly. Did I miss anything or do you want clarification?

[Mizzy]

Green:

Sorry, my thoughts are a little all over the place, but that still leaves Fuzzy's vote to being messed up because his comment lead me to believe I had forgotten an entire post or something else major...but when I went back to check, it seemed like I had gotten everything. So either he hasn't been reading my responses or was looking for any excuse to vote me in order to keep it from looking OMGUS. He said he voted me for not answering your questions, but I did.

Thanks for pointing out the quote, I honestly hadn't seen it but I'm not surprised.

Summary: Spouts craplogic to pad her one decent point, hates scumtells because good signs that you're on the path to catching scum is "bullshit," attacks players for actions that she's committing, uses logical fallicies instead of reasonable arguments and fudges the history of what she has said. Add that to my previous reasons for my vote and I'm happy to say I'm quite content with it at the moment.

You haven't really proved that my logic is crap, just that you don't agree with it, but my real reasons (note the plural) for thinking Fuzz is scum are quite valid.

I hate the majority of scumtells because they are often used as excuses to pull bad plays. Scum can cry "scumtell!" just as much as town can and quite frankly, scumtells can point to town just as much as they point to scum. Better to use cold, hard evidence than to just shout "scumtell!" and expect me to agree.

I hope this helps, let me know if I missed anything else.

[Mizzy]

crywolf20084:

If you think my work schedule is a ruse, how about you come work these 70-hour weeks for me?

It's pretty easy to call something a ruse without checking into it, isn't it? If anyone had bothered to look, I have posted very little in the other two games I am in, too,

for the same reason

.

[Mizzy]

I understand the whole 70 hours a week. That's how much I should be doing with school and work combined. I absolutely hated last week with three exams and I have one more week like that coming up on the week of the fifteenth. It sucks I know.

Yes, it does. Add in a baby who is teething and I get maybe 2-3 hours of sleep per day. Maybe.

[Mizzy]

Sorry for the double post but Tisp, I had trouble reading the quotes or whatever they are in your post.

[Mizzy]

crywolf20084:

Ether, IMO, has definitely not tried to take over the town. If she does try it, more than one of us would notice and comment. I think you just don't like what she has to say, which is fine, but I wish you wouldn't get so over-defensive and over-aggressive at things like that. Like the "bite me" comment? You could have handled that a bit more smoothly.

[Mizzy]

is there a REAL case on me? just wondering.

Several.

Major FoS: Corporate.

[Mizzy]

several.

where is there a case with any actual substance?

The biggest one, in my opinion, is how determined to dance to your own drum you have been both in terms of your normal play and your defense. Tisp said it well; this is a team game, and your need to be a unique snowflake is at best not helping the town and at worst, hurting it. You don't address the posts, or the problems, with anything more than a semi-sarcastic jab and continued assertions of how you are just playing your way.

[Mizzy]

Wow, this page exploded.

Ether, you should pull your Minion card and get us some Master Mith in here. As verification goes, he's like Verisign.

I also do not think that there would be a jester in this game and while half of me is afraid of the "vote for me and I will vote for myself" play is true, the other half wonders if it is yet another gambit. I don't like it. If you are pro-town, you should never ever vote for yourself unless you're something really bad for town to keep around like a Paranoid Gun Owner or something whack. And I doubt we have any of those, either.

In short, corporate, if you want out of the game so badly, then get replaced, but do not screw up the game for everyone else.

[Mizzy]

no, i dont want out. i want to play. the purpose of a game is to have fun. and i am having fun. we can win this, i still dont think im the best vote for d1 though.

Then please play and don't give folks any more reason to think you're scum if you don't want out.

[Mizzy]

I don't get a scum read on corporate. I think he's just being an ass.

thats the best thing said in my defense ever. i got a new sig now!

Your new sig is broken

[Mizzy]

Please List {Fuzzyman, Green Crayons, q21} in order of scumminess.

There. Yeah, you're trying to understand where the town feels for them, but to me it just seemed demanding, despite the 'please'.

I think it's just your way of speaking. It always seems to me pushing to mold the town into your ways of thinking.

So what you are saying is that, despite the very word that makes her entire sentence a request and not an order, you feel that she demanded it? You completely disregarded the exact word that was pivotal to the voice of the sentence.

[Mizzy]

you can tell someone to please go fuck themself. but it still sounds like a demand.

Context, context, context.

[Mizzy]

i understand what your saying mizzy, and my example was a bit extreme. although sometimes its hard to tell when youre reading. as opposed to actual convorsation.

meh..

You also have to remember that what Ether asked is extremely common practice in MS games to ask of other players. It's not like she pulled it out of her ass.

[Mizzy]

Simpor, I am watching your responses very closely, and so far, I have to say that criminalizing the people who have points against you is not a valid defense. Making rude responses is not answering questions. You whine about how corporate is being anti-town but you are doing the same bullshit he is.

If you don't respond sufficiently, then you are where my vote will go.

[Mizzy]

Maybe criminalizing was a strong word but you are attacking Ether, not her case against you. You should be answering to her case, not what others think of her case, or what she has done to make her a less-liked person. Your post 240.

[Mizzy]

Limited or no access from tomorrow until Monday, Nov. 30th.

[Mizzy]

I think trying to lead a town is pretty much 85/15 scummy because the scum want to beable to convince the town who is the 'scum' without drawing much or any attention to themself or their partners. I have always seen scum try to take over the town early to try to win it as early as possible.

While these are good points, I still don't see how Ether, or anyone, asking a common question that has been asked by countless players on the forums is leading anyone.

[Mizzy]

Checking in, just got home. Will try and post tomorrow but if not, then Monday.

[Mizzy]

It really feels to me like there has been a whole lot of attempts at wagons and when one doesn't stick, everyone shuffles off to another.

Simpor has been looking kind of scummy lately because the only thing he's doing of note is defending himself, and not very well in my opinion, either. It would be very easy for him to come off to me as less scummy if he did some real scumhunting.

Fuzzy is still kind of dinging sourly to me at the moment, mostly due to the lurkerish feeling I get from him but that is fairly easy to fix, too.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, are you complaining about the derailed Corpwagon? You should come vote Simpor with us.

No, I'm not. I wasn't convinced of the wagon then and I am less so now.

If I'm lynched this day it's going to be really interesting to see what the rest of you in the town will think of Ethers posts, since I will turn up as a townie.

In cry's words: "Lookie at meee!! I'm tooooooown!!!!"

Cry:

Why did you call out Ether's townie-talk but not Simpor's? I see you voted him but it surprised me that you were specific at Ether but not Simpor.

I do like the Simpor wagon in a way because he stinks of scum, but like corporate seemed to be, he could be another unhelpful townie. Two votes and a threatened vote worry me...the shit is rolling downhill too fast.

[Mizzy]

Empking, what do you think of Ether's actions?

Who do you think is more scummy, corporate or simpor?

I think Ether's actions are scummy and screams like scum trying to convine people as scum.

I think Simpor is more scummy out of those two. Though if I was a vig, I'd vig corporate.

Unvote

Vote: Ether

A 1-point case? With no solid posting about it? Weak.

[Mizzy]

Oh and,

Unvote

for now. Fuzzy is actually participating at the moment.

[Mizzy]

Green, your past post was chock full of win. That's exactly how I have been thinking but I couldn't really put it into words.

I can understand how excessively screaming "I'm town!"

can

be scummy, but it's all in context. Ether has been under little to no pressure this game, so I don't find her actions or words scummy and don't see how anyone else could. Maybe if she were under some pressure, I might, but she doesn't really need to convince anyone, does she?

[Mizzy]

You're sorely mistaken.

Crywolf: you have accepted that I am a pro-town towngoer who glows radiantly with towniness and has only the best interests of the town at heart (y/n). We'll go forward from there.
.

For example.

What, is sarcasm suddenly illegal?

She was still under (and is still not under) pressure.

[Mizzy]

FoS: GC

He strawmanned the original argument.

IGMEOY: Empking

for completely ignoring the completely valid logic in lieu for an attack.

Sorry for the double post.

[Mizzy]

Are you saying that she was being sarcastic? So she isn't really pro-town?

Who said she was under pressure?

Do you think scum only want to look town when under pressure?

Why don't you ask Ether whether or not she's pro-town? I don't know one way or the other, so asking me is moot.

Have you been reading at all? I said that she might be dropping hints at being a townie but that's only scummy in certain contexts. She had (and has) no pressure on her, so her saying it isn't really scummy. If she were being pressured and were using the townie-talk as a defense then I might consider it scummy, but she wasn't so at best it's a null-point.

And scum aren't the only ones who want to look town whether they are under pressure or not.

"Planting" an idea takes a lot more subtle nudging and a lot less in-your-face obvious sarcasm than Ether put forth. You act as though she was trying to hint gently that she's pro-town instead of what she actually did which was respond to previous attacks on her excess townie-talk by adding more to it, emphasizing that it's a ridiculous thing to attack. But I think the humor flew right over your head.

You still haven't bothered to answer to the post 342. In its entirety. Can you do that please?

[Mizzy]

It isn't a null tell. Trying to appear townie without helping the town, is what scum want to do.

What didn't I answer in post 342?

"
...Did I convince you yet? I'm curious, does this logic extend to other players? Could I ask if you think Patrick is town or not town, and then expect you to be convinced that he must be town? "

Straw man.

Yes, it is, because she HAS been helping, a great deal in fact. Did you bother reading the thread?

And no, that's not strawmanning, it's called debating. Do you have an answer for it or do you prefer to continue being unhelpfully defensive?

[Mizzy]

Where the heck is Simpor? He's at -1L, please no one hammer until we hear from him again.

[Mizzy]

Regardless of who it is, when someone attacks someone on a personal level or for completely bullshit reasons, I'm going to say something. It could have been anyone here, Ether isn't special. Well, she is, but only outside this game.

[Mizzy]

I also don't like the vote on Corporate, that looks like an excuse for the vote to me.

Cry:

Explain why you thought that warranted a vote, please.

[Mizzy]

Wow. Mizzy, tell him it wasn't.

Who? What? O.o

Also, the following made me laugh my ass off:

Patrick is cool because he unvoted to get Simp off of L-1.

I also unvoted to get Simpor off of -1, because you voted him immediately after Patrick unvoted.

If the first -1L unvote made Patrick cool, then the second -1L unvote should make Ether even cooler.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy:

If the first -1L unvote made Patrick cool, then the second -1L unvote should make Ether even cooler.

Why?

Why not? He basically found Patrick "cool" for the -1L unvote, promptly put the guy back on -1L, and then when Ether unvoted, didn't extend the same consideration to

her

unvote. That seems fishy.

[Mizzy]

But why would it make her even cooler than Patrick?

Because if one -1L unvote is cool, then a second should be at LEAST as cool, if not cooler. Apparently, he is just kissing Patrick's ass. Not that it's a bad ass, but still.

[Mizzy]

Actually, the point of my post WAS to point out the blatant inconsistency in Fuzzy's post.

[Mizzy]

Let me quick outline this so that no one can misconstrue my point against Fuzzy:

Patrick does action A.
Fuzzy responds with "that's cool."
Ether does action A.
Fuzzy doesn't respond with "that's cool."

Inconsistency!

In fact, I think he still thinks Ether is scum. Correct me if I am wrong, there, though.

[Mizzy]

So Ether, I'm lurking when I don't want to respond? My vote is on corporate and it will stay there unless I see an arguement that is better for someone else. I have a feeling you are trying to get the heat off of yourself with comments like that. I have nothing to add so I don't, why is that so hard for you to understand? This is day one, and I've put together who I think is the scummiest. Again, why is this so hard for you?

You've been trying to control the game from what I see and are trying to find ways to get votes off of you. You have suggested you would follow a Fuzzyman bandwagon even after presenting a "MUST LYNCH SIMPOR" argument for numerous pages.

It wouldn't be hard for me to vote you at this point in time.

Yes, you are lurking when you don't participate and yet read the thread. Ether has 2 votes, that's basically a melted ice cube in terms of heat.

[Mizzy]

I don't like voting until I am sure that I am happy with the vote. I'm torn between Fuzzy and Simpor.

[Mizzy]

Simp hasn't posted anything substantial since this past Wednesday. I'd be uncomfortable lynching him at this point since I now consider him to be lurking.

Since that makes my decision for me, I'll

Vote: Fuzzyman

.

[Mizzy]

If he's the scummiest player, you shouldn't let him off because he's "lurking"

So what, we should lynch a lurker when we could get him replaced if he is actually gone? No, that's not

nearly

as good for town. I'm not letting him off, I'm giving him more time to give more information. You should stop trying to look townie, you just make me want you dead more.

Besides, it got him to stop lurking, didn't it?

Unvote.

I like my fuzzy-vote now.

Well, of course you do, he isn't

you

.

Simpor's dramatic come-back has told me that I was right and he was active-lurking. He came back when it looked like there was a remote chance that someone else might get lynched instead. He's not a noob, so I would hope that he would know how anti-town active lurking is, and any pro-town player about to be lynched should be way more active about getting off the hook than he is...his last vote definitely looked like a last-ditch effort to stay alive but not in a pro-town manner.

Vote: Simpor

Fuzzy is scummy, but Simpor is scumm

ier

.

[Mizzy]

If he's the scummiest player, you shouldn't let him off because he's "lurking"

So what, we should lynch a lurker when we could get him replaced if he is actually gone?.

If he's the scummiest player, yes.

Sorry, but that's not the best course of action in my book. Scummiest or no, lynching someone who isn't there to defend themselves is an extremely poor play and 9 times out of 10, it helps the scum more than it helps the town. The better option is to replace someone who isn't playing and see if the new player in the role can give us more information.

[Mizzy]

You made a replace or lynch dichotomy. 9/10 in a game with 1 kill N0, not lynching and just replacing will help the scum.

How? How will just replacing help the scum? The only way it helps the scum is if he IS scum, and the odds of that, just looking at the numbers, are much worse than the odds of him being town.

Longer days and more information are almost always better for the town.

[Mizzy]

Not caring about the game isn't the case being made against Simpor as to why he looks scummy.

If there's a player who is scummy and is lurking, which is independent of the claims for why he's scummy, the lurking should not exempt that player from a lynch. Especially so if this player is admittedly the scummiest out of the whole player base.

Otherwise, scum who come under suspicion should just lurk and get a free pass.

It would only work so long, though. The thing is, the town should never allow lurking at all, but if we lynched all lurkers, town would nearly never win.

If Sim had not come back from lurking, I would have called for his replacement. But as you guys can see, he replied and pulled some more scummy crap. That act has completely nulled any pass I might have given him. But lynch first, ask questions later, is not a good way to do things.

[Mizzy]

Nobody is taking about Lynch All Lurkers. We're talking about Don't Let Scummy People Off Because They're Lurking.

And I'm honestly not sure why, it's pure game philosophy and there's a better place for discussing that in these forums than here.

[Mizzy]

I'm not really disagreeing with you, Green, I'm just pointing out that Emp is harping on an issue that isn't even really an issue. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that he feels I should not be giving Simp a free pass, which I am not doing. I would have if he completely disappeared from the game without an explanation as to why because conjecturing the why would have been pure WIFOM and getting a replacement in that situation would have been better. But since he stopped lurking when I posted what I did, he nullified that potential for that pass.

In short, Emp needs to stop whining.

[Mizzy]

In short, Emp needs to stop whining.

If you're town your beliefs will completely screw us over if you get to LyoL.

Did I say that I feel that way for lylo, too? No, I didn't. My statements were general but not all-encompassing. Nor did you ask. But, of course, you can keep up with the distraction if it makes you sleep better at night.

[Mizzy]

I was just indirectly telling Mizzy and Crywolf that they were wrong.

You failed

[Mizzy]

Well, deadline or no, my vote is where I want it.

I would like to suggest that the cross-fire voters corporate and Fuzzy perhaps rethink their votes.

[Mizzy]

Still overloaded with work but I wanted to chime in. I feel like mykonian is overthinking things, pointing fingers a little early, and in general, is seriously bugging me. His role speculation is infuriating, as is his implied viewpoint that his opinion is clearly the way things should be done.

[Mizzy]

of course I'm going to say that what I think is the way that it should be done, what do you expect? If you want a lynch, you are doing the same.

Except that if you are wrong, you're hurting the town by expecting us to do things your way. Your role speculations are completely WIFOM and dangerous to boot. Please check them at the door before you post.

And great that I am seriously bugging you, I've heard more statements like this now, if anyone would care to say what I am doing wrong.

I just did, go read it again if you have to.

The main point I have expressed till now is that I really don't understand how you could go so easy on fuzzy sometimes. Fuzzy really wasn't obvioustown and some of the actions you are at least doubtfull. Care to tell me what I am overthinking, when you can find some time? I just put all the feelings and facts I had on the player I thought most scummy day 1 in one post.

I wasn't talking about fuzzy. Tunnel vision much?

[Mizzy]

Who were you talking about? With the few posts I have made till now, I thought I had only made statements about fuzzy and corporate, maybe GC. The last two, GC as near certain, I see as town now.

I was addressing your thoughts about corporate and your role speculation.

If I'm wrong, then you would be also wrong for following me. Most times you have different lynch candidates. I think fuzzy is the best choice, and I say that, and why. If you think it should be someone else, make a case, and see what we choose. There is nothing that states I couldn't agree with you.

Again, I'm not talking about fuzzy. And even if you're right about fuzzy, lynching him NOWNOWNOW is not the best idea.

When I get home I'll give you the examples and further explain what I mean.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, you promised me something, could you give it in the weekend?

I can try but we may lose power and everything this weekend, we're supposed to have a really, really bad storm.

[Mizzy]

@mizzy: your real life seems to get in the way enough to be convienent, but not enough to where you cant post.

You try working 13 hour days and see how much you feel like playing MS when you get home.

I'm actually pondering asking to be replaced in both games I am in because it looks like I'll be working days like this long into January. I'll make my decision this weekend (which yes, I am working.)

[Mizzy]

Frankly, the longer that you are busy IRL, and don't replace out, the more likely he's right. Get out.

Oh, how touching.

Actually, I found out today that this is the last weekend I should have to work so expect a catch-up from me on Monday. I won't be around for the holiday but who will?

[Mizzy]

Okay, I am really confused and I don't see a lot of headway being made in any direction other than the direction of "Emp doesn't make sense."

I'd have voted Emp by now if his wagon didn't spring up as fast as it did. That worries me and there's a whole slew of WIFOM thoughts there that I won't go into, but suffice it to say that as much as I feel Emp is unhelpful, I think the case on him is circumstantial at best. I would want something more concrete on him/from him before I'd vote under the current quick-wagon circumstance.

[Mizzy]

I'm sorry, mizzy, but empking doesn't seem to defend very well... What would your explanation of that be?

Why are you asking me? I have no idea why he doesn't defend himself well. Why don't you ask him?

[Mizzy]

You said that the only thing on Emp was that he made no sense, so Mykonian noted his sub-par defense. Myko now wants confirmation that you are withholding your vote in spite of that, your opinions on his defense, or both.

I would personally prefer both.

I meant that I didn't see a lot of headway in current conversations other than "Emp makes no sense." That had nothing to do with the case.

I am withholding a vote because (from highest to lowest in importance):

1) The wagon and the speed with which it formed feels a little off to me.
2) It feels like the town is tunnel-visioned on the easiest suspect, not necessarily the best suspect.
3) Having sub-par defensive skills (or sometimes even a sub-par defense) is not indicative of scumminess. Which is kind of on the same line of thought as "being anti-town does not make someone pro-scum".

[Mizzy]

...

It stays hard to have this game active.

Mizzy, do you still have something for me?

Did I forget to answer something for you? Sorry, the game is really slow and it's hard for me to stay interested.

[Mizzy]

...

It stays hard to have this game active.

Mizzy, do you still have something for me?

Did I forget to answer something for you? Sorry, the game is really slow and it's hard for me to stay interested.

You had a case on me. I thought you had said you would post it, but you still haven't.

Honestly, I'd have to re-read to see what I was thinking at the time, but I don't remember right now. *Sheepish grin*

[Mizzy]

Still overloaded with work but I wanted to chime in. I feel like mykonian is overthinking things, pointing fingers a little early, and in general, is seriously bugging me. His role speculation is infuriating, as is his implied viewpoint that his opinion is clearly the way things should be done.

This feels odd. My name could have fit into like 3/4ths of that.

Perhaps that should tell you something about your play, then? Plus, it's difficult to attack a player who isn't around.

[Mizzy]

Plus, it's difficult to attack a player who isn't around.

I would have far less problems with your play if you stopped hiding behind real life, and at least not this way. We all have lives, and some of them are busy, but how many people use that as their defence quite often in their game?

I was talking about Ether.

[Mizzy]

Still overloaded with work but I wanted to chime in. I feel like mykonian is overthinking things, pointing fingers a little early, and in general, is seriously bugging me. His role speculation is infuriating, as is his implied viewpoint that his opinion is clearly the way things should be done.

This feels odd. My name could have fit into like 3/4ths of that.

Perhaps that should tell you something about your play, then? Plus, it's difficult to attack a player who isn't around.

I meant early on, when I very much was around.

The first sentence in my post was referring to that time, yes. There is a major difference, however, and the reason I haven't suspected you

yet

. You're always like that and I am aware of that fact. I haven't played with or meta-ed him so I have no idea if he is normally that way or not.

[Mizzy]

No, you're not scum because you believe in meta. In fact corporate's lack of such a belief is part of why he's scum. What I meant to get across is that you're trying to convince people of things that aren't there.

Okay, this doesn't make any sense at all.

Firstly, meta information from finished games can be a huge help to current games, especially to show deviations in behavior. Using meta is a null-tell, it has nothing to do at all with whether or not someone is town or scum. If anything, using meta information is more useful to town since most of the time, people play as town, it can give a good base of knowledge for how someone might play as town and point out deviations.

Secondly, you're not saying things that match up. First we're discussing strawmanning and then meta and now you're saying that someone is scummy for using meta and that at the same time, someone else is scummy for not using meta?

Meta and the belief (or disbelief) thereof has nothing to do with role or alignment. Show how what he is trying to convince people of doesn't exist without using horrible blanket statements that aren't true, please.

[Mizzy]

• 1. Emp stating that GC was strawmanning.
  2. Emp stating that he had given reason to believe that Ether was not really town (Inferred).
  3. Emp stating that I had stated that he had been on GC since his first post.

I suppose I can kind of, maybe, see where you are coming from. The best way to show that is to show/quote the post you think he was trying to manipulate and then show a post or 2 that show what the truth of the matter was. You can really only prove manipulation by showing an intent to alter truths.

[Mizzy]

I like how Fuzz goes from super hard-line against Emp (from the very moment Emp joined the game) and then when he realizes his stances are crap he does an aboutface, shifts his positions and becomes conciliatory.

I would much rather have someone go, "Oh, damn, my case is crap. Sorry, I take it back." then have someone continue to argue a bad case. And I would also much rather have the other person go, "Oh, good, I'm glad you saw the light." then have a passive-aggressive OMGUS bonanza.

So let me ask this, GC:

Why does your brain yell "scum abandoning a bad wagon" instead of "potential distancing" or "good, no more townie squabbles"? Scum aren't the only people who abandon bad wagons. Hell, if

anyone

abandons a bad wagon, is that anything but good?

[Mizzy]

Not quite sure why you're bolding. Nobody has shown an inability to address points made to them.

Habit.

Once more, I never meant to speak about meta in the first place.

He "didn't mean" to talk about meta, but he did and it didn't play out well for him. Now he's backtracking and repositioning. There's a difference between doing this and saying "I was wrong." He's saying "I wasn't wrong because I didn't mean to do X."

Ah, okay, I can see your point here.

This epiphany comes so sudden and shockingly stilted it screams as scum looking to wiggle their way out of not only this single argument, but their larger position in the game.

It more screams to me, "I'm not paying attention and I have no idea what the fuck I'm saying." I suppose, to me, Fuzz hasn't played the smartest or the best (sorry Fuzz, no offense) and I'm having a hard time deciding if he is just town trying to fix a mistake or if he's what you see, i.e. scum trying to fix a mistake.

These two points don't negate the rest of Emp's universe of failings - which was the reason for Fuzz's vote in the first place. It looks like Fuzz is looking for an excuse to unvote because he sees that even if other people think Emp is a certified nutball they don't automatically think he's also scum/needs to be lynched and so this wagon isn't going to be the successful town-lynch he was originally hoping for when he put his vote on Emp.

I can see that, too. I think, though, that watching what Fuzz does next will be even more telling than what he has done already.

So you would rather take people at their word than reading into what they're saying? Also, I threw this criticism against Emp in here to further underline his blind adherence to his flawed suspicions against me as juxtaposed against his sudden disregard of his legitimate suspicions against Fuzz.

No, what I want are people to realize when they have done something moronic than to stick with the moronic thing. It was a comment in general, not just about what's going on.

Because I have already explained why I think Fuzz is scum and the wagon against Emp is bad.

I see (feel?) more of a Fuzz-wagon in general than I do an Emp-wagon.

My last comment about wagons was more a conversational piece and not really to do with the current situation either, I should have put a note in but I hit POSTPOSTPOST too fast

Last question, which is hypothetical and while I prefer you answer, you don't have to:

If Fuzzy gets lynched and flips town, what should be done next?

[Mizzy]

Oh hey, the site is back I'll catch up tomorrow; tonight my son is acting like he's been possessed by a screaming demon soul and I can't even think straight.

[Mizzy]

and I rather wait for some reasonable input I can react on then to do nothing except to decide between empking and fuzzy.

So you think that the totality of scum is only two and therefore don't want to look elsewhere where scum might be just in case if 1) you are town (which I'm not too sure of) and 2) you get killed before you can voice/explain additional suspicions you may have?

That's the only reason I can think of as to why you believe the only thing you can do at this time is to decide between emp and fuzz and wait for others to speak up. I didn't know conversing about other suspicions was antithetical to getting activity to liven up.

I read myk's post as saying "I'd rather wait for input than decide between emp and fuzzy" but I could be wrong. Grammar does change everything.

[Mizzy]

I need to be on LoA until Sunday due to work (all-day release tomorrow. You guys can check monster.com to see what I been killing myself on the new site goes up tomorrow.)

[Mizzy]

I'm back but there's not a whole lot to read or respond to.

[Mizzy]

Ether:

All I've really decided is as follows:

Townish:

Green Crayons

Neutral:

Ether
corporate
q21

Neutral with a side of possScum:

Fuzzyman
Empking
crywolf20084
mykonian

Those last for are all in one big haze of IGMEOY but I don't know about anything concrete yet.

[Mizzy]

Hrm. I'm not sure what I think of these events. I'm also not a fan of breadcrumbing for the reasons stated before and I won't be seeing the breadcrumb as anything but a nulltell.

I can see why Fuzzy would have investigated the two people he did, and that makes me believe his claim. I am not sure whether I feel he's sane or insane, but I'm definitely not sold on there being a miller in general but I'll think on it.

[Mizzy]

the only use of a breadcrumb is to show that the claim is not a last moment thing, like when I would get a guilty on me. Now it's use is indeed not so big, it might make the claim stronger, as claiming miller isn't the savest thing to do, because scum can use it to explain guilty's so that town cannot rely on the cop. From what I heard, millers tend to get lynched a lot .

But in this case, that will at least stop you from mislynching corporate, when fuzzy is indeed an insane cop.

Right now, I think we need to take everything with a grain of salt. You were suspicious enough to be investigated at all and we have no real way of confirming anything at the moment.

[Mizzy]

...Well, that made my mind up for me.

Myk has pointed out that cry hasn't done very much that has been noticeable (other than attack Ether) and not only do I agree with that but I see cry getting right back into the same rut as she was in before. She's not scumhunting. If anything, she's acting on gut, which at this point in the game, is very anti-town in my eyes.

I mentioned before that I was neutral (with a side of suspicion) about:

Fuzzyman
Empking
crywolf20084
mykonian

Fuzzy claimed cop, which I won't second guess at this time, and mykonian claimed miller, which again, I have no reason to doubt so will accept as true, tentatively. And Emp I think is just a crappy player but not necessarily scum (I'm leaning town on him.) That leaves:

Fuzzyman

Empking

crywolf20084

mykonian

Out of the other folks, corporate is innocent if Fuzzy & myk are to be believed, and since I am accepting that for the moment:

Ether

corporate

q21

And there is the potential scumteam.

Looking at this, it makes sense that cry and Ether have been at each others' throats; distancing. And neither of them have done much that's been noteworthy which makes me think they are flying under the radar.

Thus:

Vote: crywolf20084

for a blatant OMGUS vote, a shitty case, and being a hypocrite. Along the rest of the case above. And

FoS: Ether and q21.

Let the flame wars ensue.

[Mizzy]

Ether, you spent half the game AWOL without notice, you're playing by gut right now (which you admitted) and you voted someone without a decent case (which you also admitted.) You've done very little in this game. You can Pfft all you want, but it's still true.

[Mizzy]

Bullshit. I spent the other half the game producing like half its content: even after being inactive for a month, I

still

have the highest post count total of any role (adding replacements together) in this game. I have most certainly not done "very little" here. I've deteriorated almost everywhere; there's an ongoing game that I actually

did

flake from around this time, as well as the C Invitational a few months ago. And after Fuzzyman's and Mykonian's claims, I'm kind of shaken up, and it's damn lucky that I've gotten enough of my grip back to

have

"gut" to run on instead. Which isn't a bad thing anyway.

Incidentally, I saw Canary viewing the thread earlier and I would very much like to know what he's thinking.

As it was pointed out to me once, post count (i.e. activity) doesn't mean a whole lot. Quality over quantity. And I accept that you were helpful day 1, but that time has long since passed. What I'm saying is that you do need to get back on track. I don't like seeing votes from nearly pure-gut from you.

[Mizzy]

What's your own vote for, anyway? We all know how I feel about hypocrites.

Try reading my post.

[Mizzy]

(Credit for voting Crywolf over Empking, though. Hmm--Mizzy, what changed between those two lists?)

Wait, I just saw this. How can you even ask that question seriously? What major event happened between list #1 post and #2 post? Just two role claims, that's all. You really didn't read my post at all, did you? You just skimmed it.

P.S. Sorry for the double post.

[Mizzy]

I call myself town because I find it fun to do so. I like having fun.

I

am

town because I was the most active player in the game on Day 1, and am retaking that position again now that I've recovered. I'm town because I obviously care about this game.

No, if you were town then you would be town because your role PM said so. And if you care oh-so-much about this game, why did you disappear? You were on your last prod when you came back. That does not tell me you care about the game; it tells me the opposite, in fact.

[Mizzy]

Weren't you the one who, as soon as I made a big case against you, you had to go semi-AWOL because of work? Pots and kettles, they're everywhere!

The in-game happenings had nothing to do with the fact that I had no time to play, and I warned folks ahead of time that it would happen. I didn't need a prod, and in fact, did my best to stay active even when I was working 16-17 hour days. I did not drop off the face of the earth for no reason and no warning. So no, I don't consider the two things equal.

These two quotes do not add up. She either has done very little in this game, or she was helpful in Day One but has since dropped off the map. Your first claim is that she's been completely useless, the next claim shifts that position and instead says that she was completely useless beginning Day Two but Day One she was pretty awesome. So which is it: was she useless Day One and Day Two, or did she only become useless in the beginning of Day Two when she went AWOL? Also, is she useless now that she's becoming active again?

I stated an opinion and she argued against it. Her argument was correct and my original opinion wasn't. I accepted that fact. What's wrong with that, exactly? I was wrong, and I admitted it.

I also fail to see how those claims would affect your view. Feel free to also give q21 and myself shit for apparently just skimming your posts as well, but I would ask that you would also explain in further detail.

It actually really ticks me off that I took the time to post my reasoning and then it gets ignored. You want further detail? Then here's all the detail you're getting:

The claims, because I have no reason to disbelieve them, completely shifted my unknown/neutral reads on the players involved. Based on those changes, via process of elimination coupled by prior play and evidence, I was able to get off the fence, as it were, about several players.

What I mean is, when two people claim pro-town power roles and I have no reason to not believe them, then those two people become unlynchable town in my mind (until such time as it is proven that they lied, of course.) Factor in a third person who looks innocent because of the claims, and suddenly instead of 7 players to look at, it drops to four. That's a pretty big jump.

[Mizzy]

Awesome, an "I'll vote now, I'll tell you why later" stunt. I hate those.

And what, one OMGUS vote isn't good enough for you, cry, you have to go with yet another? Can't you do anything original?

[Mizzy]

mykonian

: Crywolf is only going back and forth between me and Ether. Ether had to ask her to produce content, because she really hasn't.

I have reasons for voting Cry that don't only have to do with OMGUS

, or didn't you read that post, either?

If cry votes me without a case, then that vote would be OMGUS. Period. And, if you had noticed, Ether is not on my pro-town list. And no, cry should react by defending herself, not tossing out another switch-vote.

The above quote from mizzy shows exactly why she is scum: she jumps on a bandwagon, with her vote only justified by the power of the magic word OMGUS, and now she yells at crywolf: "OMGUS, Lurker!". That is scummy.

This quote shows exactly why you have made me face-palm more than once in this game. 1 vote on a person is not a bandwagon (I was only the second.) I have a case. I never mentioned lurker in regard to cry.

Now go read my goddamned post #850 and re-count the votes on cry during that time, before I insult your reading and counting skills.

[Mizzy]

Ether fishing for reasoning outside of what you already have posted via 850. Or she didn't read 850 at all.

I don't think she read my 850. If she had, she would have specifically asked about reasoning outside of what I had given already.

You overreact to a legitimate question (one that's actually separate from the above quotations), since you're only reasoning for not voting Emp is "And Emp I think is just a crappy player but not necessarily scum (I'm leaning town on him.)" You didn't give any reason as to why your opinion as formed as such.

Forgive me if I feel like everyone skipped what I had to say and pointed fingers anyway. If Ether had read what I wrote, then she wouldn't have asked the question. I don't think she was asking about Emp specifically.

As for why my feelings on Emp, I never really outright suspected him in the first place; I was unsure and and thought he could have been paired up with someone else. But once I did my process of elimination, the people I would have paired him with got crossed off (specifically, myk and fuzzy.) Since he was potential-scum to me because of the pairings, I had to let him off the hook.

I hope that clears up the Emp thing.

But you didn't post your reasoning as to why you formed a town opinion on Emp.

This was involving Cry, not Emp.

The claims, because I have no reason to disbelieve them, completely shifted my unknown/neutral reads on the players involved. Based on those changes, via process of elimination coupled by prior play and evidence, I was able to get off the fence, as it were, about several players.

Yeah, this is nice but it's not explaining what our confusion is about. We're not asking about how and why you nixed Fuzz, Myk or corp from your list of pool of potential lynchees today. Emp wasn't involved with any of the claims - he's altogether absent from that little trio of affected players. We're asking why you think Emp is a poorly playing town and you've failed to given an adequate explanation.

I didn't see where you admitted your incorrect assertion.

Then go read my #854.

No mizzy, you simply follow ether with a vote on crywolf (the second vote, I know), for lurking and screaming OMGUS, while OMGUS is not rightly applied here.

Yes, it very much is rightly applied here.

Ether voted cry, and while her case was all kindsa weak, cry does NOT get to just vote Ether right back with a weak case, too. I'm not saying that Ether was in the right, I'm saying that cry was more in the wrong.

Cry has tunnel-visioned on Ether quite a bit. She has no real reason to be voting her. Then, once I vote cry, cry considers OMGUS voting me, without mentioning any reasons other than "recent events" which is so completely vague that it doesn't count as anything.

The rest of my case still stands. Cry has not scumhunted, which is the biggest point against her. She has done things she's called out other people for doing, including the OMGUS bullshit.

Mizzy's attacks on me are very much a factor in my vote. It's the sort of thing that I personally would refer to as OMGUS and most people would not.

When I vote you, you can consider that an attack. Until then, there's just suspicion.

[Mizzy]

Not that it makes a difference. Mizzy uses the word to justify a lurker vote, while I think, even your broader version of OMGUS would count for crywolf her vote. Crywolf reacted like everyone would on your vote, scum or town.

Just because you want to pretend there isn't more to my case than the blatant OMGUS vote, and the threat to place another one, it doesn't mean that you're right. You can pretend I don't suspect her for the tunnel-visioned attitudes, the hypocritical actions, the lack of scumhunting, and the other circumstantial evidence, but it doesn't make you right. It just makes you blind.

And for the last time, I didn't accuse Cry of lurking as part of my case. So stop making shit up.

[Mizzy]

ok, explain that to me. I miss how that statement could accuse cry of lying, as the main point seems to be the lack of scumhunting (the lack of action -> lurking)

No, the lack of scumhunting does

not

mean lurking. Scum don't scumhunt; they already know who scum are so they don't need to hunt for them. So a scummer can be totally active, and not actually do any scumhunting.

[Mizzy]

Didn't you do something like this at the beginning of the game? Voted Fuzzy for bogus reasons and tried to replace them with real reasons later. That's why I started of the game suspecting you.

No, I voted someone for anti-town behavior and everyone knew why I did it because I said why. I didn't say Ether had bogus reasons, I said she gave NO reasons.

[Mizzy]

Okay, so, maybe i got a false sense of security with Myko's posts. They don't seem scummy to me, but that would require a read through of his posts in isolation.

Unvote/Vote: Mizzy

The posts on pg 37. are really starting to get to me. Her reasons are more BS than Ether's

lack

of reasons.

And i'm sure most of you are wanting a claim. I'm a bank patron aka vanilla townie.

Called that. Look, no case, just pure bullshit. Not only did she not do what Ether asked her to do (provide a real case) but she did exactly what I knew she would do...OMGUS voted. Good job.

[Mizzy]

It's not a fuckin OMGUS vote. Read what you have written in context and out of context of the game. 99.99999999% of it is bull shit.

How is it

not

an OMGUS vote? Where's the case? You're voting me because I voted you. Same reason you voted Ether. You have no case, no reasoning, nothing. Ether asked you to put together something intelligent and reasonable for suspicion on me and you couldn't even be fucked to do that. She asked you to do that way back in #898 and nothing from you. No content. Just personal attacks that aren't even true.

You're just proving me right.

[Mizzy]

mizzy, why are you so eager to push a vote through on crywolf by continuesly saying that she voted OMGUS? It is not like your case was so brilliant, and you now try to get the lynch purely based on the effect of that word. I don't like it.

Why are you protecting her so much? Do you know something we don't?

As for why OMGUS, it's because of several things:

1) She tunnel-visioned on Ether for most of the game, without any real case.
2) When Ether voted her, she immediately voted Ether right back with no case.
3) Then, when I voted her, she threatened to vote me, again with no case.
4) She did end up voting me, with no case, only because I voted her.

She hasn't scumhunted at all. Her votes have been pure OMGUS today without any real thought behind them. It's not just that her votes were OMGUS, but also because that's all she seems to do.

That's on top of the whole rest of the case against her.

[Mizzy]

mykonian:

So basically, you say my case is weak when yours is just as weak, if not weaker? So what makes yours better than mine?

[Mizzy]

Also, since the superstar mykonian put me at -1L, I'll claim. I'm just a bank patron with no special ability. If I get lynched, the game will probably go into lylo, if I counted correctly, so be careful.

[Mizzy]

You make a case better then it is. You try to lynch someone based on the word omgus. That's a standard scumtell in my book. Even if it was pure OMGUS (what never happens, and certainly not in this case), it would be the moment for scum to get the town going to get that mislynch. That is what you are doing here, and that's why I vote you.

Are you not doing the same thing I am? Are you not putting more emphasis on one point to make the case stronger? You're a hypocrite.

[Mizzy]

And I don't think Mizzy is -1L. I only see Ether, Wolf and Myk on her wagon. Did I miss the fourth?

I could very well have miscounted, I have gotten about 2 hours of sleep in the last 2 days, heh.

[Mizzy]

I've been cursing for the last few days anyway, so I'm not really sure how to articulate that my annoyance is

increasing

, but it is.

I have literally banged my head into my desk out of sheer annoyance. More than once.

[Mizzy]

I'm seriously getting tempted to give Crywolf an ultimatum, but everything

except

her own behavior in this game just adds up better if she's town. Sigh.

She could just be really shitty town...but I don't think so, obviously.

[Mizzy]

I don't like the appeal to fear on this one. Maybe

you

should be careful, Mizzy.

I am completely and totally serious, here. If I get lynched, I

will

come up town and then unless something prevents it, there would be another NK, leaving us in lylo.

Go ahead and lynch me, I'm not any sort of power role.

[Mizzy]

Miz: Do you even know what an appeal to fear is?

Yes, it is. And this isn't it. Go ahead and lynch me, I'm fine with it. It's a warning for tomorrow. I didn't say it to appeal to anything, I said it because it's important.

[Mizzy]

Erm, I mean, Yes, I do. Sorry, not much sleep.

[Mizzy]

mostly the first paragraph. There are some general statement that you give as reasons for your vote. Bandwagony, omgusy votes.

This goes along with the lack of scumhunting point against her.

A scum does not have to look for scum, they have to look like they are scumhunting when in fact they are trying to get townies lynched. To these ends, scum will a) bandwagon, b) vote without a case or without adding anything original of their own to a case, c) react in certain ways to situations, d) try and direct suspicion onto those suspicion of them, e) not actually offer any content to the game and instead try and

look

productive, f) question-dodge, etc. You get the drift.

Now, townies are often guilty of some of these things, too, but when they add up time and time again, that's when you have to draw the line. Cry has not yet given a good defense of her actions (calling something bullshit is not a defense) when, if she were town, it would be in her best interest to do.

My vote is still on her and will remain on her mostly because of this last point. If she were town, she would be doing everything in her power to defend against the points brought against her and she would be scumhunting right now in order to give town a better target for their votes. She's not defending against cases on her and she's not making cases on anyone else. In fact, she's barley responding at all. That is the biggest reason why, to me, she's scum.

[Mizzy]

Clearly, though, I've changed my mind; I think I've seen something even stronger in Mizzy.

You've always sucked at reading me, though.

[Mizzy]

I mean your gut reads, Ether. You always start out by thinking I'm scum(my.)

What about my play here suggests I'm scum? You haven't said.

[Mizzy]

I hate the majority of scumtells because they are often used as excuses to pull bad plays. Scum can cry "scumtell!" just as much as town can and quite frankly, scumtells can point to town just as much as they point to scum. Better to use cold, hard evidence than to just shout "scumtell!" and expect me to agree.

I have stood by that in every single game I have played, and do now, too.

[Mizzy]

then are you surprised that I have some trouble with the way you handeled the "OMGUS" vote from crywolf? It is the perfect example of what you say in 118: there is a scumtell (OMGUS), that you want us to follow you for that, because you're case isn't that great.

I never once said that the omgus was a "scumtell." I said it was a scummy action.

[Mizzy]

myk:

A "scumtell" as usually used is a term that generally means some action that scum "always" do that magically makes other people able to tell that the doer is scum. Meaning, scumtells are actions that are said to be ONLY done by scum. Example:

Person A: "Yay, there was no nightkill last night!"
Person B: "Scumtell! Vote: Person A!"

Ether understands my stance on scumtells.

And no, a case and mentioning scummy actions are not scumtells. And I feel that the concept of scumtells is bullshit.

[Mizzy]

But this is exactly what you are doing with that "omgus" vote from crywolf. That is exactly what is happening here. You scream OMGUS, vote crywolf, and you have for the show a weak (lurker) case behind it. But it is clear that you want to push it through with the word OMGUS.

No, I very much was not. The first time she began to tunnel-vision on Ether, I noticed. The first OMGUS vote from her made me suspect her a bit. It wasn't until the Ether-OMGUS vote that I full-out found her to be scummy and voted her. I did not use just one action of hers as a reason to vote her, I used many smaller reasons balled into one case to vote her, which was strengthened the moment she OMGUS-voted me and continued to not scumhunt afterwards.

You want to tell us that action could only have been made by scum, as it is your main reason to vote. While I think I have showed that it wouldn't be illogical to vote ether for such an obvious bad vote as a towny.

And no, I said no such thing so

don't you dare

put words into my mouth. I said that multiple scummy/suspicious actions compounded to make me suspect her as scum. The one OMGUS vote was simply the last straw in a long series of suspicious activity. And more of such activity came after.

I'm not going to respond to anymore of the same stupid shit from you. If you have legitimate questions or a legitimate case against me (which you have yet to actually have) feel free to ask and bring up the points. But I refuse to deal with more of your single-minded stubborn attitude.

Oh, and if you don't believe me about my views on scumhunting, go read one of the many games I have been in where I say the same views on this scumtell jargon, regardless of role or alignment. It's how I feel about them. Or, ask Ether. She's seen it.

[Mizzy]

I don´t think anybody should be lynched for being slightly lurking and possibily distancing. (with ether.) That was what I still know about the rest of your reasons, and I have said that before: that is not something you want to lynch for. But when you added OMGUS, suddenly it was. What a great scumtell must that be...

Okay, either you can't read or you're the worst townie ever.

[Mizzy]

Call me the worst towny, at least I'm not scum, like you.

I will expect an apology from you once I come up town and you're proved wrong.

[Mizzy]

This post is the one deciding factor on my vote for Mizzy. See bolded stuff above.

I HATE this statement. I know I’m not distancing myself from Ether at all. Ether might have just picked me as an easy target (Understandable. I would try. But after my last post I’m back to leaning Ether as town. _{grumblegrumble}). So I may start to consider Q21 as scum that you are trying to bus.

My vote stands.

Now onto Myko, GC, and probably Q21 now too. This one may have to wait until after I'm done with my chemistry and precalc, art, and music homework.

Your deciding factor? You hadn't suspected me openly until I voted you. Not enough for a vote, anyway.

And who cares if you know what you're doing? We only know what we see and have to judge based on that. And you hate it, do you? So, you are letting emotion drive your vote?

And can you stop flipflopping?

[Mizzy]

Almost 12 hours and no posts. Sheesh.

[Mizzy]

Mod, q21 hasn't posted in 4 days. Can we get a prod?

[Mizzy]

I'm not going to reiterate the common sense found in #1056 but I endorse it.

Vote: q21

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I retract my apoligies. I would like everyone to look at how you jumped on the crywolf wagon. While screaming OMGUS, you found the easy wagon.

vote mizzy

You are so full of it. Look at the vote count, myk! I'm the first vote listed. There was one before me, Ether, and she was thinking of voting her when q21 hammered.

How can I jump on a wagon when I'm the first vote?

[Mizzy]

Oh, and, yes, assuming there are three scum, we are in lylo. Sorry for the double post.

[Mizzy]

Wasn't Ether first?

Did you even read my post?

[Mizzy]

I don't care when you voted crywolf, I care about how you did it. That was what I reacted on then, that's what I react on now. You saw an opportunity to vote crywolf in that "omgus" vote, and you suddenly saw it as a universal scumtell (while it could have been done by a town player, and it proved to be done by a town player). You tell us that you have a big case to back it up: that case consists of "distancing with Ether", and lurking. That is not a great case. So scum, you voted crywolf for an "OMGUS" vote, that you treated as the best scumtell in the world, while you expressed early in the game that you were not convinced by standard scumtells. But when it becomes usefull, you suddenly are convinced by it.

Now you shift the attention to the timing. Yesterday, that was not my big problem with you, today it isn't. And you know that very well. It is simply the part that you can defend, even if I don't attack you with it.

You do need to care about both things. Timing and reasoning are extremely important. And how many times do I need to tell you that I don't believe in universal scumtells? You keep putting words in my mouth!

You're completely ignoring q21's actions. Even if you think I'm scum, you can't ignore that there are multiple scum in the game that ALL need to be lynched. No?

[Mizzy]

I doubt anyone had noticed but I have been checking into the game every 20 or so minutes and had more than enough time to unvote. I didn't.

[Mizzy]

I actually had already claimed before, but I suppose no one remembers. I'm a Bank Patron.

[Mizzy]

I'd like to know why Emp paired myself and him as well, and if the reason is simply because bio and myk are "cleared" then Imma be pretty skeptical.

[Mizzy]

I now have keyboard imprints in my forehead from being so frustrated. I'd ask Fuzzy what he was thinking, but the answer would not help anything and would probably piss me off. So I won't.

[Mizzy]

Honestly, I was really hoping I would get investigated last night but I didn't want to ask because people would have screamed "obvscum!"

[Mizzy]

Oh, and for what it's worth (which isn't much since everyone wants me dead, I think) I think fuzzy isn't scum. I think he's just not so good at being the cop.

[Mizzy]

I don't think we would have a godfather in this set-up because of the general theme. Godfather is really a mafioso role, and the cops and robbers theme goes against that. In fact, I would bet that both scum are just goons (because 3 random cops would really do more harm to the town winning than powerful scum could) but that's all set-up speculation.

[Mizzy]

You are saying that you and empking are the last scum? because in your previous post you didn't suspect fuzzy. Then you have also bionic as confirmed.

Or do you think I'm mafia with Empking?

At this point, all I am sure about is that Emp must be scum. If I HAD to choose between Bio and you, then I would have to pick

you

because:

1) Fuzzy's last two investigations are highly suspect. If he is indeed scum, then it would make since that you would be scum with him, one of you "clearing" the other.
2) Yesterday, you went after me with a vote before you went after obvscum q21.
3) Fuzzy seemed displeased that q21 got lynched, as did you in posts 1083 and 1084.
4) You have been constantly trying to get me mislynched with no case, you friggin' hypocrite.
5) You have been attempting to throw doubt on Bionic here, too, which is completely retarded because he's as pro-town as GC was.
6) You've been talking about a GF a whole shit load, saying other people could be one if they come up town on an investigation. That makes me think that you really do know that one exists.

Wow, that's actually a whole lot more damning than I thought it would be. And just look at the end of yesterday:

Vote Count:
q21 - 4 (Fuzzyman, Mizzy, Green Crayons, bionicchop2)
Green Crayons - 1 (q21)

Not Voting: (2)
mykonian
Empking

You know what this tells me? This tells me that Fuzzy might have voted first to look townish, not thinking q21 would get hammered so fast, and Emp and myk didn't vote on the obvscum

at all

. Then, both Fuzzy and Myk act upset that the lynch happened so fast and try and cast a little doubt on Bionic.

...

This is not even considering that both Fuzzy and you, myk, have been playing like bad townies the whole game (sorry, but it's true.)

...

Well, fuck.

Bionic, what do you think?

[Mizzy]

Look at this, this is complete proof. We have someone we all agree is most likely scum and you focus on ME.

[Mizzy]

Myk, invote NOW. Only three votes are needed for a lynch and we have proved that Emp is scum because he wasn't quicklynched by scum. If I get quicklynched, we LOSE.

Vote: Emp

[Mizzy]

Unvote for the time being but since Emp could have been lynched before (I think most if not all of us were around for it) I'm not worried about that.

My point was, Myk, that I can see a scum connection between you, Emp and Fuzzy, but only two of the connections are correct and one is not. And you are seriously not helping things.

[Mizzy]

Erm,

Unvote

. Oops

I will revote once we hear from Fuzzy and Emp.

[Mizzy]

Bank Patron

Mizzy: What's your case. I don't think "They didn't QL scum where scum would've obviously QLed" is very good.

I think its very likely that scum have a Godfather and I think Mizzy is the goon.

Considering that deduction is pretty strong, unless Myk is lying then it HAS to be you and Fuzzy. It's certainly not Bio, and the ties have been strong between you, Myk and Fuzzy, especially between Myk and Fuzzy.

Why would scum have a godfather in a Cops and Robbers game, exactly?

[Mizzy]

Godfathers from a flavor perspective I don't think would work well here, and I don't think we have 3 scum.

Bio has acted 100% pro-town ever since he joined the game. Everything he says reeks of towniness. What has he done that's even remotely suspect?

[Mizzy]

No, it isn't new, I've said it before. Hence why I have been saying that one of the potential pairs isn't scum/scum.

[Mizzy]

Check #1127. Maybe I didn't phrase it as well as I thought I had but I was basically trying to say that I didn't think there were a godfather and 2 goons, just 2 goons. I don't know for sure, but I think that a godfather would seriously overpower the scum considering the dueling cops thing.

[Mizzy]

I have some other speculation but I won't go into it until everyone has claimed.

[Mizzy]

How am I supposed to know for sure how many scum we have? I don't. I have to look at all the options.

There is/was/whatever a possibility of both 2 and 3 scum, and I am not going to dismiss either potential. I may have believed there may be only two, but that was dependent on one other claim which didn't happen (I thought Bio would claim a 3rd cop due to his behavior.) If we had three cops of differing sanities, then I would have gone with 2 scum, but since it appears we only have 2 cops, then I must assume 3 scum.

How is this concept difficult?

[Mizzy]

Nice. Twist it into me being too dumb to understand your awesome complex theories.

I wasn't talking to you.

mizzy, do you have anything else against me then that I attack you?

You mean, other than the list I gave earlier? No. I'm not attacking you, though, nor am I planning on voting you, so why does it matter?

[Mizzy]

myk:

You have to remember that we have absolutely no way to be certain that you are a miller and not a godfather. Your role claim could be completely false and we would never know you lied until you were lynched or killed and came up scum. That alone gives me reason to doubt you in general. When you factor in the actions of Fuzzy and Emp, both together and with you, it really makes me distrust you a whole lot.

This is compounded by the fact that you seriously annoy me. You have made a whole lot of completely ridiculous and hypocritical assertions and accuse me of doing the same. It doesn't matter whether or not I am guilty, it doesn't give you the right to do the things you accuse me of.

You have basically ignored 99% of what I have said and stomped on me anyway. You continue to force your opinions on my play, not taking into account that I have said the same things and played the same way in all my games, regardless of alignment.

If I really, honestly suspected you, I'd have voted you. But I didn't, because I am trusting you enough to believe your claim. You have made that virtually impossible for me to do, and in fact, I have already chalked this game up as a loss to the sheer amount of shitty town play that is in it.

Long story short, you are not always right, you are not fully-confirmed town (just semi-confirmed at best) and there is reason to not believe you, namely your role claim, your actions, and your ingame-connections.

At this point, I don't give a shit who gets lynched, I just want the game to

end

. This is my last game for the foreseeable future on this site and I am more than ready to put the frustration and annoyance behind me.

[Mizzy]

and how I am to know, I see something scummy, I react on it.

I have told you so, and a lot of my games are up on my wiki entry for you to look at. The information is there for you to find if you wanted to. Half the shit you think is scummy about me are just personal beliefs that I hold to in every game.

[Mizzy]

Actually, I'm pondering hammering myself just to get the game over with.

[Mizzy]

Myk, what are you babbling about? "The other two" can't both be scum to you if you think I am scum.

[Mizzy]

that's why one of them must be town. Scum waits for the towny to make a decision. That's what I said.

I think we need prods.

[Mizzy]

Well Emp last posted 2 days ago and Fuzzy was before then. Nothing since.

[Mizzy]

Bah, good game.