Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[Hoopla]

vote: no lynch

obvscum

[Hoopla]

Don't like this. Although the random voting stage isn't particularly vital,

it can often help jumpstart conversation, get reactions going, etc

. This vote provides no information to the town that can be discussed later.....

(more words)

vote: GeorgeCarlin

[Hoopla]

ebwop:

unvote, vote: GeorgeCarlin

[Hoopla]

Thank you for taking the comment out of context.

You're welcome.

Another important part of my post is the use of the phrase "by itself".

Although your vote may start discussion due to others commenting on how scummy the vote is, and create reactions, by itself it does not give the town any information to analyze so that they can learn more about your alignment

. And that is something that I feel, especially this early in the game, is extremely important.

I don't expect to be able to prove my innocence in my opening post, so obtaining information on multiple players for the town is a more worthwhile investment. Don't worry, there'll be plenty of time for interrogations.

[Hoopla]

IGMEOY:Hoopla

Because I hate the "I'm going to do something scummy so I can jump on the first person who calls me on it to "encourage conversatin"" gambit. I've seen town people do it too often lately to really consider it a scumtell anymore, so I'm notgoing to vote you for it, but it never accomplishes anything and just makes day 1 muddy.

Ordinarily I wouldn't jump on people for calling me on it, but the reason he gave wasn't the reason why it's 'scummy', and contradicted his argument. A good way to break down a group is getting many peoples' thoughts on one thing. These reactions can be directly measured as personal bias, other suspicions and information isn't present in the game yet.

After a while the game will go off on many different tangents, and when assessing who is most likely to be scum, you're addressing posts that are in response to different events and can become more subjective and prone to misrepresentantion.

I think it accomplishes something.

[Hoopla]

I disagree with the strawman argument that GC disproved his own case. He did not say that a no-lynch vote would

not

generate discussion, in fact, he said it

would

.

What his point is as I read it, is that Hoopla made a move that revealed no alignment information.
That point is correct.

He says a no lynch vote is useless if nobody reacts to it (which you also reference later in your post). This does disarm his argument, as he does respond, and so do several other players. A random vote is also useless if nobody reacts to it.

The bolded point you can use on any of the first page random votes. If you disagree, link me to a game where a random vote does reveal alignment information.

1: Hoopla - for using what apparently has become a rather common method of starting a game, and then voting for the player that began chasing after it,

when the ploy fails entirely if everyone ignores it

. Additional suspicion for creating the false statement that GC was contradicting himself.

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post. I've never seen a game where a no lynch vote has been ignored - please show me one. My retaliation further validated the purpose for my no lynch vote.

[Hoopla]

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post.

No; if you are pro-town, then your ploy fails if it just leads to pro-town people fighting with each other all day. Which, in my experence, is usually what happens.

So, at this stage you believe it's very possible everyone involved in this debate is pro-town, under the premise mafia wouldn't bother getting involved?

[Hoopla]

I'll be very interested to learn what George Carlin makes of all this when he checks in again.

[Hoopla]

BM, your posts are mighty hard to sift through sometimes. I know this is supposedly how you usually play, but maybe try expressing key thoughts rather than everything in your head? At the moment I don't know what you're attempting to do, but I don't like it.

The main point I'm upset with you is generating buddying claims on people who merely share a similar opinion, while also appearing to link yourself to others at the same time. I didn't like Post 35 jumping to my aid and ordering off a FoS, and Post 112 I read as you implying you're both pro-town, although it could also be read as you were both previously scum in other games and you're throwing in your own alignment hoping CKD is. Either way I'm keeping an eye on you.

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

Something else I want to address is in regards to a couple of posts by CKD and a couple others. Here is an example;

I understand newbies attacking newbies for newbie tell, but you should know better…and even though you are not currently voting Hoopla, you jumped on that because…?

I realize I'm a newbie, but I didn't join in this game just so I can play the newbie card, so you don't need to keep dealing it to me. I think I can handle the pressure and the dynamics of the game.

Mod:

Can we possibly poke Puta Puta, SensFan and Panda Stomper who are yet to join in?

Done

.

[Hoopla]

"Ye gods, it doth amaze me,
A man of such a feeble temper should
So get the start of the majestic world,
And bear the palm alone."

Okay, so what is this all about?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla seems to be avoiding saying anything, letting the bigger dogs fight over the debate he supposedly purposefully started, which is something I really don't like.

This is a very astute comment.

However, I really don't like the way Sens is basically playing five pages behind and picking up only scattered information from whats going on in real time.

I disagree, I offered my motives for doing what I did much earlier in the game. The fact others continued to debate wasn't my wish. We have higher priorities at the moment - the main one which has been pointed out, is waking up the lurkers, otherwise it'll be the same small group of people attacking each other which isn't overly helpful for the town. Wake up guys.

Mod:

Prods for ZTR and GeorgeCarlin? Replaces for xyzzy and Panda Stomper?

[Hoopla]

I like to vote and react to posts as I read them, since it allows others to see my immediate reactions to those posts without the benefit of reading the aftermath.
I treat a NL vote as quite scummy, yes. I can get a read off of literally anything else someone does in their first post.
And I happen to be caught up.

BM, if someone actually rolls a die to vote, that gets a vote from me, too. Short of that, nothing is random. Scum have to make a conscious choice to either vote or not vote their partner.

Scum have to make conscious decisions throughout the entire game, I think you're over-glamourizing the start. If you can get a read off literally anything in a first post, why are no-lynch/self-votes any different - it's still a decision. It may not be a statement directed at another player, but it is still a statement. Do you find it scummy those who don't make a vote in their first post too?

[Hoopla]

@ yos
i have posted i have been reading i have nothing of substance to post, untill something pops up that i need to adress i prefer to stay out of the way

I don't like this either. I also endorse the lurker hunt.

unvote, vote: tubby216

. You have something to talk about now.

[Hoopla]

OGML, what exactly is your case against Sir Tornado? I found a feeble FoS on page 4 and that's about it. Can you explain further why you think a Sir T wagon would be cool?

[Hoopla]

Hey vollkan, welcome to the game. You caught up quick! Quicker than some who have been here the whole time...

Anyway, I do have a few things I want to address, but I only have time to field this which directly relates to me;

I do have a question for everybody who is on the Tubby wagon, however: Are you prepared to take it to lynch if he doesn't post --

I think so, ideally I'd love tubby to come out of shell and gives us thoughts on the game so we don't have to. But like Yos said, if there isn't any real chance of a lynch from a pressure wagon then they aren't serving their purpose.

[Hoopla]

After a couple of rereads I find my attention shifting more and more to OGML. I think he is one of the players (along with Der Hammer) that has given an illusion of activity without offering too much.

Post 30: His first post, essentially agreeing with some BM logic which seems like a cheap way to hop on an early wagon and get in the game.
Post 31: Shanba doesn't let it slide and questions why he thinks it's scummy.
Post 32: OGML describes how it could have been an honest mistake but thinks it is likely for scum to jump on an anti-town tell as it's far better than a random vote.

This passage of play is contradicting as OGML jumps on an anti-town tell himself in his first post to avoid a random vote, and then berates GC for essentially the same ploy. Normally I wouldn't think jumping on an early anti-town tell is signifigant, but contradictions are.

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

Posts 129 and 132 happen in quick sucession - OGML disagrees with Yos and Shanba buddying. Not a lot of insight.
Post 154, out of nowhere votes Sir Tornado without reason, when Sir T's last post was back at 125.
Strangely Sir T now posts at 157 and 158 but doesn't question the vote at all.

I presume OGML does have some answers for this vote, particularly after comments in Post 202, about a bigger wagon for Sir T.

In Posts 256 and 257, myself and Ectomancer enquire about his motives behind the Sir T vote. Ectomancer also thinks the switch to the Tubby wagon is suss.

Post 264, OGML instead chooses to talk about BM's out of date lurker list, and is still yet to provide reason for many of his actions. He hasn't contributed a post of more than two lines, bar one occasion. A lot of his posts are rebuttles to arguments that don't directly relate to him, as well as a few agree posts without expanding or explaining why he agrees.

So until I get a few more answers, particularly about the Sir Tornado vote, I'm going to:

unvote, vote: OhGodMyLife

[Hoopla]

So until I get a few more answers, particularly about the Sir Tornado vote, I'm going to:

unvote, vote: OhGodMyLife

Cases that end with "until I get answers to these outstanding questions" are really flimsy. That dawned on me recently.

Maybe it's me giving you an incentive to tell me your reasons, but I'm actually a bitch and have little reason to change my vote!

[Hoopla]

Yeah, I'd carry a Tubby lynch through. Strategic lurking, which is what tubby is doing, is either awful town play or scum tactics to avoid a read, both of which are lynchable offenses.

what are you talkin about??

I'm allvwing this continue beacuse:

1) i think its funny
2) its telling more about everyone else in the game,
3) i highly doubt i will get lynched today but if i do thats ok to i just hope everyone is paying attention

This is ridiculous, why are you being so unhelpful? If this is telling more about everyone in the game, what have you learned from the six people voting you?

You will get lynched if you keep playing this way, let me reassure you.

I didn't realize the lulz was part of your win condition.

[Hoopla]

Maybe it's me giving you an incentive to tell me your reasons, but I'm actually a bitch and have little reason to change my vote!

Maybe you shouldn't say your vote is "until you get some answers" next time.

That last comment was more tongue-in-cheek than anything, as you already said earlier you'd get back to me.

Regardless, I still think 'until I get answers' is completely valid. The vote isn't there just to lynch people, it's a tool. And if I can use this to extract answers out of people who are hesistant to comply, then I am making good use of my vote. The longer we debate about this though and nothing gets answered, the happier I am to leave my vote on you.

[Hoopla]

ebwop: screwed up the quote tags. Swap OGML and Hoopla - I applied the wrong name to the wrong quote.

[Hoopla]

Wow, pressure is on for Puta Puta to do something now.

[Hoopla]

The annoying thing about lynching Puta Puta is the lack of information tomorrow. For all that has gone on so far the recent pages have just been about trying to wake up the lurkers. We're essentially going to be starting again, because most of the players are behind in this game or not participating.

But overall I'm not overly opposed to lynching players like Puta Puta - the chances of him being scum is about on par with random, with the added bonus of getting rid of someone useless.

Welcome to the rest of the replacements, hopefully you've managed to rip through those BM quote pyramids! And hopefully when OGML catches up too he'll have something on Sir T.

[Hoopla]

I'm a cop. I don't remember (if any) who I investigated O_O

either I didn't sent in a name for investigation or I did but something happened, cuz I never got a report, lol

I am really struggling to believe Puta, and I'd love to lynch him. But Sir T's point is valid; even if he is scum, we have him pinned anyway. There's only so long you can fake being a cop for.

I'm still happy with my vote on OGML, but am prepared to switch to killa seven if he wants to be useless as well.

[Hoopla]

In this sort of situation where Puta claimed cop without really following the game, is it worthwhile pressing for a confirmation claim from his replacement? I could honestly see him being a cop or scum, or even just a townie.

@k7 - I think Iam's voting was justified. I'm contemplating unvoting OGML also, as the sole purpose of my vote on him was to extract information from him - that was more than a week ago. OGML has done nothing to justify a case on Sir T at all, at more than one stage claiming him to be scum.

Do you have any other suspicions k7?

[Hoopla]

Good to see OGML back up to date, I think his reasoning on Sir T is valid, but I don't understand why he didn't show us his case initially rather than voting without reasoning. I'm against tubby full-claiming just yet, but I endorse the wagon on him.

what if i have a power role what then?? does that make you a scum hunter or a role fisher??

This is an awful argument, coupled with your lengthy OMGUS arguments is enough to warrant my vote;

unvote, vote: tubby

[Hoopla]

Unvote, Vote:Tubby

until he claims...

Tubby is at L-7, are you endorsing a bandwagon to L-1 or L-2 until he claims? Or do you just want him to claim now?

[Hoopla]

Xyl, aside from lurkers, who do you find the scummiest right now and why?

Honestly, my ability to find scum in a large game on day 1 is pretty weak. Nobody has done anything scummy enough to make them a better lynch than a lurker, aside from tubby who is giving inconsistent reads.

For real? There's 27 pages of good stuff just lying around ready to be analysed. I know the majority of players aren't actively contributing, but you're posting frequently, probing, and you're still unsure? I like the fact that players like BM and you are active, but if we're not getting anywhere from it pipe down.

Besides if we're going to focus on lurkers, SensFan is the obvious choice;

Sens isolation http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#1350407: Responds to prod, 5 days into game. Note: had been active in other games during that timeframe.
Isolation 1, 2, 3: Starts posting thoughts as he sees them on pages 1, 2, 3.
Isolation 4, 5: Makes general comments about lack of alignment information regarding a no lynch vote, which is interesting to me considering Sens belated entry into the game, merely responding to a prod.
Isolation 6: Now starts conversing with BM claiming I'm not arguing about the no lynch for myself.
Isolation 7: Now states he hasn't finished reading the thread, despite picking comments to respond to.

Nov 16 - Dec 04 doesn't make a post

Isolation 18: Joins the game again with a post telling tubby if he doesn't post he will get lynched.

Dec 04 - Now - no posts.

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

Focusing on OGML and Sir T;

I originally voted OGML earlier in the game for making these statements (154, 202) without any justification. He was probed by myself and Ecto about what his case on Sir T was, and didn't get that in until post 549.

I think OGML has a good case on Sir T, however, the thing that irks me is that the weight of the case appears in posts 400+, well after the initial vote for Sir T by OGML.

Nothing either of them have done since has done enough to sway my opinion on both of them, and I'd be satisfied with an OGML or Sir T lynch.

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

Unvote, Vote: SensFan

[Hoopla]

Snes has been going through rough times IRL, from what I was told.

Understandable.

[Hoopla]

Nov 20:

Will make a post more with a more detailed amount of my thoughts so far later

Dec 05:

My game changing analysis is nearly here. Hopefully sometime sunday

Finally delivers:

Tubbys claim really doesnt convince me so I think my vote is happy were it is

unvote, vote: Der Hammer

, lets play some mafia please.

On a side note K7 should be back from vacation, hopefully you're ready to play too.

[Hoopla]

Hey Fonz, you have my name voting twice.

[Hoopla]

You're still claiming to be a town aligned player. Optimal miller play would be trying to draw an NK to protect town powerroles for another night - or conversely claiming at the start of the day so we can deal with it then.

If you're really pro-town you're doing a rubbish job and are just handicapping us.

[Hoopla]

- Hoopla, what is the point of your post?

It's me being hissy, because it's essentially a give-up post - he doesn't want to play, and the town will be punished for it by wasting a lynch when he is probably town.

[Hoopla]

Relatively astute posts by Der Hammer, it's good to see you're starting to play the game again. The miller claim does still irk me, but I think that can be taken care of later rather than now, now that you're contributing to the town.

unvote, vote: sir t

[Hoopla]

There is no giving 'townie credit' here. Here and now we make our decision as town. What we won't have is leaving this up in the air, and here is why:

1: If we don't believe him, he is scum, we lynch him here today after we are content with the discussion.

2: If we believe him, we make a pact as town here and now not to lynch him...at all. That pact forces scum to deal with him. They cant afford to go into endgame with what we are essentially deciding is a confirmed townie. It also presents the possibility of blocking a NK somewhere along the way, or, our boy gets into endgame. Also, making the pact means we wont have to worry about our power roles going crosspurposes, Doc/Vig being a simple example (no, not saying we have them). We cant waver on this. Once the decision is made, we stand solid on it.

3: If we believe him, but can't reach a consensus to never lynch him, then we kill him today. Scum has to

know

that we wont lynch him, else they dont have to bother to waste a NK on someone they know we will lynch. Keeping him around has dubious value. Cut him loose while we have elbow room to do it.


So here's the time for the Poker fans. #1 and #3 are the safe routes. The card flips and he is scum or he is town, either way, the game is not won or lost yet.
#2 is the gamble. Should he prove to be scum, we lose. But...if he is town, there are some tangible benefits to keeping him around and we set scum a task that they have to deal with.

The question is, how good is your gut?

I think I see now why the policy is lynch all claimed millers.

Ecto, it still doesn't make sense. Even if we vowed not to kill him throughout the game, under the belief we think he is town - it's a fallacy to think scum need to deal with it. If it gets to lylo with DH still alive, wouldn't doubt be creeping back in? It's just eventual unnecessary WIFOM which harms and distracts the town.

If we think he is scum we should lynch him today. If we think he is scum tomorrow, we should lynch him then. The main question is whether a claimed miller warrants a policy lynch, which D1 is when it should happen. It was such a bizarre passage of play I'm inclined to lean toward town on DH for this one, but I'm still not opposed to the idea of a policy lynch.

[Hoopla]

hmmm, must've read wrong. I'm thought someone was saying that der was posting with little substance.

You could y'know read and analyse...rather than relying other's judgements.

[Hoopla]

Some of you have been incredible hypocrites and hopefully you will get called on it. Accusing me of offering no content will simply offering bland and baseless attacks on me based on "active-lurking" while hiding behind that yourselves.

I think the main point people are making is the fact you didn't start offering content until you were attacked.

Early in the game I was a miller trying to get through the day without really being a factor. Obviously I didn't want to get investigated, so I tried to slip into day two....in a way I acted just like scum so some people picked up on it. I wasnt sure how to play it, so I decided just to tell the truth and possibily make it work for the town. I still believe it can, because I hope most of you believe me.

There's a difference between getting through the day and then lurking for a month. Your best chance to avoid investigation would be offering constructive input and appearing astute. By not posting...at all, really, you're just inviting a lurkerwagon on yourself, which ruins your plan.

Hopefully a vig takes care of you.

[Hoopla]

We need to get a majority before deadline, or there will be no lynch. No lynch is Bad. We have two players who are being replaced so we can't count on them voting. It's 12 to lynch, so a minimum eight players need to either grow the courage to place a vote, or to give up on lynching their first choice, between now and deadline. Deadline is a little over a week away. Did I miss anything important here?

This is good talk - I don't think we should be waiting right up until the deadline to execute a decision. With the activity level we've posted at this game we really should be deciding now and 800 posts for D1 is plenty.

I'm with OGML, but the Sir T wagon has faded to nothing really, so I'll;

Unvote, Vote: Seraphim

and put him closer to claiming territory.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla - Why do you want me to claim so badly?

We're 7 days away from deadline - if you look at the amount of 'prodded, I'll post later', 'catching up now' type posts, and the amount of general inactivity in the game I think trying to organise a lynch prior to the last minute is valid. We're also at a stage of D1 where new, pressing cases are unlikely to surface, and if one does I want to have time to readjust.

I don't want the town to get into a situation where there is 2 days until deadline, our chosen lynch then claims something useful, and then we have to scramble to lynch someone else. This throws the lynch back towards random and gives scum a far easier chance to orchestrate a mislynch.

I know I haven't made a case on you - but I think you're the next best lynch after Sir T, whose wagon seems to have died. These thoughts stem from others' cases and we need people like me to agree with some of them if a lynch is to be made. I think Claus' 870 has decent points on you, and reading through your isolation posts and then again in contrast with the game I can see you being scum.

[Hoopla]

I know I haven't made a case on you - but I think you're the next best lynch after Sir T, whose wagon seems to have died.

And, yeah, this is something that really ticks me off. If you think someone is scum,

vote for them

and try to convince others to do so too. Keeping quiet and just saying "I think X is scum, but I am not voting for him because the wagon died" without trying to push that wagon when we are an entire week away from deadline is just pathetic. OGML is at least sticking to his guns and still insisting that I am scum (although not doing a terribly good job of it; perhaps due to the holidays), but what are you doing? Apart from following other people?

So we should all be stubborn and stick to who we think is scum? This seems suboptimal for the town. If you'd like an excuse for my play I'm more than happy to share what my plan has been.

At the start of D1 I voted no-lynch which helped myself and others generate reads on other plays and allowed a lively start to the game. The game then plateaued and died due to lurking and replacements. I made cases on players - as did others, but the fact so much of the town (yourself including for a while) remained inactive we weren't going anywhere. So I decided lurker-hunting was the most viable way to kickstart play again so we had a read on more players - and more importantly had more opinions in the game so current conversation wasn't being dominated by a smaller group.

My current vote of Seraphim I explained my reasoning behind. If I choose to vote you again I'll articulate my reasons more thoroughly - but it seems redundant now that you've decided to replace out.

And, note, that a considerable amount of OGML's accusations against me were based on the premise that I was "setting up a Seraphim lynch". You agreed with that. Why the hell are you voting for Seraphim now then? And, note that you are doing that while maintaining that he is not your number one suspect, and you are voting him only due to the deadline. Can you please decide who you are going to pretend is scummy or not before accusing and being consistent at that?

I'd rather lynch you as it saves us getting a new player into the game. I think it's very plausible you were 'setting him up', but also upon looking at Seraphim closer now, I could see him as scum. I'd wager to say one of you is scum - but not both.

[Hoopla]

- Why haven't you made any case against me yet?
- You explain that the only time you attacked me (if it can be called an attack) was in a post where you agreed with OGML, followed by you saying you were happy with OGML lynch too. Anything you want to say for yourself on this?

I'm going to link the posts you're talking about so we can get it straight - I presume you mean 312. In this post I voted OGML to try and get a reason behind his vote on you. This is further illustrated in this exchange between 316, 318, 325 and 328. What happens next is OGML declines to answer this case until 549, despite posting in between.

What bothered me, which I mention in my 665 is that OGML made the majority of his case on you after his initial claims of you being scum. I dislike the fact he evaded a question after being asked more than once - but when he did answer his case was still very valid and I agree with him. This is how I got my feeling of scum from him

and

you.

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Since you seem to be doing most of the questioning, I'd like to flip this around and ask you something:

Player A thinks Player B is scum. Player B thinks player C is scum. Because A thinks B is scum, does this give A a town read on C due to what B thinks of C?

[Hoopla]

Also,

So, let me get this straight

- You say I am your main suspect
- You think only one of Seraphim and me can be scum
- You vote for Seraphim because there are no takers for my wagon.

Excellent.

Do you agree?

In a round about way. I'd be satisfied with a Seraphim lynch or you, as I think I'd get a decent read on the other who isn't lynched. I think you're oversimplifying though.

I have another question for you;

In a D1 situation similar to this you have two main suspects who are about equal probability of being scum in your mind. You're getting a possible power-role read from one if he isn't scum, and a probable vanilla/weak power-role if he isn't scum from the other.

Both have a few votes already. Who do you vote for, and who do you want to claim?

[Hoopla]

In a D1 situation similar to this you have two main suspects who are about equal probability of being scum in your mind. You're getting a possible power-role read from one if he isn't scum, and a probable vanilla/weak power-role if he isn't scum from the other.

Both have a few votes already. Who do you vote for, and who do you want to claim?

In that case, I make a case on the person I suspect the most (that would be me for you at the moment) and try to push people to vote that person, instead of just quoting a bunch of people and saying "I agree with what he says, vote X, even though I would prefer Y to be lynched"

I didn't ask you to reiterate what you've already said in 924.

In a round about way. I'd be satisfied with a Seraphim lynch or you, as I think I'd get a decent read on the other who isn't lynched. I think you're oversimplifying though.

This is the single most scummiest thing you have said today. In a nutshell, if you are scum, you are saying you get a chance to push 2 mislynches on first two days.

Really, that must be a testament to how astute I've been this game (unless of course by today you mean 'today').

Just because I find you slightly scummier doesn't mean Seraphim isn't a good lynch too. Other factors weigh in also. For example, claimed role, helpfulness, activity, power-role possibility...etc doesn't necessarily always relate directly to scumminess, but are factors to consider when lynching.

[Hoopla]

Just because I find you slightly scummier doesn't mean Seraphim isn't a good lynch too. Other factors weigh in also. For example, claimed role, helpfulness, activity, power-role possibility...etc doesn't necessarily always relate directly to scumminess, but are factors to consider when lynching.

Neither of us have claimed anything. Neither of us are giving hints of power roles right now. (note: I am not claiming or denying anything about my role, just saying I haven't given any indication of it yet. This sentence does not point to anything except what it says.)

The rest of your sentence, is just mumbo jumbo which doesn't actually mean anything but makes you look very clever as it doesn't apply here.

Do you base all your decisions and votes solely on scumminess?

[Hoopla]

Do you base all your decisions and votes solely on scumminess?

That's a silly question if you have read my posts; especially the ones about Puta Puta and later Der Hammer when he first claimed. Seraphim hasn't claimed yet. There is nothing to go by. And, you are trying to distort the situation on that front in your post 932 by hinting there is.

No, your main point which I'm trying to satisfy is me switching from you to Seraphim - despite you appearing scummier to me.

I'm trying to show you that other factors can influence decisions outside of scumminess, because you seem to be hung up on me switching To Seraphim. The factors I listed were mere examples of what can trump scumminess in varying situations.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla has never made a case against me today. He's just saying I am his no 1 suspect without allowing me to defend myself. And, he's voting Seraphim at the same time. Tell me, is this behaviour acceptable? And, he's saying that he thinks either Seraphim and me are scum; although not together. So, if Seraphim comes up town, that gives him the license to attack me tomorrow saying that I was his number one suspect all along.

I asked him to make a case against me twice yesterday (RL yesterday) -- he told me to stop repeating myself after the second time; and he still refuses to heed my request. If I am his main suspect, let's hear why.

I've already explained other factors weigh into a lynch. A fast approaching deadline is a good reason to change a vote to a second candidate particularly when you look at players like Natirasha who can't be bothered reading mid-sized posts.

The way I look at it, people will assign scuminess in tiers - whether or not they are actively noting the probabilities or just going by intuition isn't important. What is important, is the closer we get to deadline without coming to an agreement, more people will have to drop more 'tiers' which means the lynch is controlled by fewer people. That's bad.

By me sensing the time to decide is now and altering my position to my next choice, I'm enabling others more time to readjust to hopefully slightly shift too. In other words, I'd rather more people drop to their second choice, than some having to vote for someone they have no suspicion of.

Sorry, for the odd tangent but I think it best describes where my game is at the moment.

In his 665, he agrees with OGML's 549 but then adds:

I think OGML has a good case on Sir T, however, the thing that irks me is that the weight of the case appears in posts 400+, well after the initial vote for Sir T by OGML.

After that, he makes absolutely no mention of his suspicion towards me,

not even

when he actually votes me; until the point he unvotes me and votes Seraphim.

So, this begs a question, why am I his main suspect in this game, based on a case -- which isn't his -- which he thinks is irksome in some aspects; which is based on me setting up the lynch of the person he thinks is second scummiest in the game? Isn't this stretching credulity?

You're tarnishing my position here a little I feel. What irked me about OGML was that most of his case came after he claimed you to be scum.

This doesn't invalidate the case he presented

- it makes it suspicious that he claimed you to be scum well before he put together a case.

I think I got bogged down for a while focusing on lurkers which clouded my genuine suspicions. But I don't see the point in rehashing someone's points if it won't bring anything new to the game. The reason people make 'cases' is to persuade others, which means people have to agree.


On a side-note are you still seeking replacement or sticking it out now?

[Hoopla]

Not including 'catching up now, posting soon' posts, here in a list of player's last game related post, to illustrate how important the deadline coming up is.

Sir Tornado -

10 hours

Natirasha -

18 hours

Seraphim -

32 hours

magisterrain -

36 hours

(please read/catch up)
Xlythixlm -

42 hours

iamusername -

45 hours

Ectomancer -

48 hours

tubby216 -

48 hours

Der Hammer -

50 hours

OhGodMyLife -

60 hours

Shanba -

65 hours

curiouskarmadog -

68 hours

Yosarian2 -

72 hours

vollkan -

80 hours

farside22 -

15 days

skitzer -

15 days

militant - 1 month (limited access in signature)
SensFan -

1 month

(V/LA for holidays)
Claus - Announced V/LA until the 6th
xyzzy -

replacing

Battle Mage -

replacing

Here is the current vote count:

Seraphim (6): Claus, curiouskarmadog, Der Hammer, Natirasha, vollkan, Hoopla
Der Hammer (5): Xylthixlm, Seraphim, Sir Tornado, tubby216, Shanba
Tubby216 (3): SensFan, Yosarian2, xyzzy
Sir Tornado (2): OhGodMyLife, Ectomancer
OhGodMyLife (1): farside22,
curiouskarmadog (1): iamausername
Shanba (1): (Battle Mage)

not voting: magisterrian , skitzer, militant

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

The problem is that most of the most active players have already got their vote on one of the top two candidates. The inactive players - the one's we need to secure a lynch, have spread their votes too much.

We're now 5 days away from the deadline. There are some players who can't help the position they're in - and I'm not having a go at them, but we need to take into consideration the possibility of others missing. If you're here, start posting so we can compromise a lynch. Nothing has happened in the last 3 days - and nothing will continue to happen if you don't do anything.

[Hoopla]

On a side-note are you still seeking replacement or sticking it out now?

Had I not asked to be replaced out already, I wouldn't want to right now; but I understand many of you may have unvoted me/changed your opinion on me due to me asking to replace out, and it would be in bad taste to stay, so I am still being replaced out when The Fonz manages to find replacements, and he has to find replacements for 3 players, so it is very unlikely I would have got replaced out on D1 even if I hadn't been posting so much. Obviously, BM and Xyzzy who aren't posting should get replaced out first.

My optimum choice has shifted recently - I think you'd be pretty valuable if you are town-aligned, moreso than Der Hammer or Seraphim which to me is important in a D1 lynch. I have no problems with you staying, infact I'd encourage you to do so.

Hoopla, if you think it is a great case, perhaps you might want to respond to my response to it, since OGML isn't doing it?

I'll make a post on this very soon.

[Hoopla]

D1 lynches are inherently going to be less likely to produce a scum result due to lack of information. I believe it to be a decent ploy to lynch someone who has their hand in many debates and interacts with many players, because if they do flip scum you're got a lot of data to link players with. You're then taking the risk of lynching someone active who is town - making cases, in a town full of lurkers, which could hurt you later in the game.

A lot of the game I tried focusing on lurkers, getting them to post to justify to myself a lynch of you or OGML for information, but it's getting to the stage where sacrificing information in favour of a policy-lynch seems to be a more beneficial result for the town in the long-run.

More specifically on the Sir T case presented by OGML, I've mentioned previously the weight of the case is beyond the 400 post mark - I think Sir T adequately defends himself for his early gameplay. Now, just as much as I jumped on OGML for claiming certainties, this struck me the wrong way too;

1) I am convinced CKD is town. His attack on Sensfan seems to be very righteous and passionate.

I dislike this more than someone claiming certainties on scum, particularly when Sens lurked then posted bits and pieces - it was a simple case to put together.

Ah, the overconfidence...

I do play distinctly different as scum and as town usually, but the play style in this game is deliberately supposed to be a bit ambiguous because I was being sick of being NKed, especially after being NKed on N1 in my last game (which I was really starting to enjoy).

This quote is bad, firstly the bit about overconfidence when read in conjunction on his thoughts of CKD. Secondly, the ambiguous playstyle comment is a rubbish way to evade to scrutiny. It's essentially a cloak where you can attribute anything someone finds scummy about you to your playstyle, saying you were meant to do it. You retort to this with a predictable 'check my meta' reply;

Perhaps you want to see my last 3-4 games?

To be fair, I think the rest of the case/replies were valid and possibly being misconstrued by both parties. My main beef is the ambiguous play-style comment and meta-defense which I hope doesn't resurface.

One thing that does need to be addressed is this;

Hoopla, if you think it is a great case, perhaps you might want to respond to my response to it, since OGML isn't doing it?

Ordinarilly it isn't a great case - but for D1 I think it has enough value, and coupled with other lynch factors it was good. I've reread the game a few times, and I guess there's an element of intuition - but I'm doing my best to explain my thought process behind my view of you. Overall, I think we're overvaluing this exchange, mainly because D1 reads are fairly inconsequential in the long-run of the game, particularly when I don't have a read on half the players yet. I'm at a stage where lynch value is starting to play a big factor, as opposed to flat-out scumminess.

I don't think this topic warranted a page long debate when I don't have my vote on you now.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla has never made a case against me today. He's just saying I am his no 1 suspect without allowing me to defend myself

@Hoopla: Is this correct? As in, have you anywhere presented an argument for why Sir T is scummy enough to be your number 1?

Most of page 38 was spent debating this - I didn't present a case, but I think I've effectively showed my reasoning behind it during our lengthy debate. I will say my thoughts (of Sir T) have lessened recently though, and he is now starting to look more like a frustrated townie just wanting answers.

[Hoopla]

frustrated townie

Try "completely pissed off".

Okay..

[Hoopla]

I'm not Scum. Some of you are making the right decision.

I don't really think you're scum, but I still debated voting to lynch you. What irks me is that you really only come in to post whenever your name is mentioned. Are you going to be more helpful tomorrow presuming you aren't vigged?

[Hoopla]

tubby216 just massively spiked my scumdar.

but after some discussion claus could better pick out who his suspect should be.

Looks like he's trying to preemptively discredit the claimed cop...

no i was simply stating why i thought he may withhold his results,, sheesh xyl take a breath its still early in the day i have plenty of time left to make you want to lynch me, lol

I agree with Xyl - even this last reaction doesn't seem very townish to me, I can't really place it.

I was surprised with Sir T's NK, I thought the way myself and a couple of others were heckling him, may have warranted him to live until tomorrow. It makes me wonder why scum wanted him dead - OGML was under a lot of pressure still continuing to ignore all of Sir T's replies, but it almost seems too obvious as if scum are trying to set him up.

I'm surprised there was only one NK too.

[Hoopla]

As far as I can tell the momentum in this game consists entirely of lurker bandwagons.

Well, yes, thats the only momentum you've been adding. Scum.

Okay, I'll bite - what have you got on Xyl, OGML?

[Hoopla]

Vote: Natirasha

[Hoopla]

I'd say we have two mafias, and both of them killed Claus.

That means there is a third killing variable involved - which makes it odd that only one NK took place on N1.

[Hoopla]

Wow, well, I think that is a fair compromise - before Claus' time expires he should make an exit post detailing his previous investigation and tell us what he knows. In the mean time, unlike yesterday we shouldn't rely on his investigation to determine our course of action. A lot has happened since D1 so I think people need to make their new suspects clear.

I'm going to have a reread now and provide what I think.

[Hoopla]

No, I think it's ultimately quite shit, we've still lost a town player we shouldn't have, and a cop too. Plus I saw him basically as confirmed anyway.

The mod made a mistake, it sucks - but it's been handled adequately. Lets move on and play the game.

[Hoopla]

I don't think there are two mafia groups. The "Florida" bit is just a red herring.

I disagree. I think it's very probable that there is more than one mafia group. The mod wouldn't have just pulled a random death out of the bag on Claus - even reading Fonz' explanation post;

According to the way that night actions were submitted last night, Claus should not have died.

To me this indicates that he took a hit, but a role affecting this was missed - so unless it's a redirection role, it's likely to be a protection.

[Hoopla]

magisterrain is right - OGML you've been doing this all game, jumping back and forth between votes, offering little to no reason why. Prime example is from D1 avoiding Sir T questions after he asked multiple times. It really isn't what I'd deem as pro-town play, and really is a simple way for scum to coast through the early few days.

Vote: OGML

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: MagisTerrain

[Hoopla]

I tried to protect you Claus when you came out as cop

Good game scumbags, I can't believe how many replacements we went through. I don't know, I don't think a lot of people played very well this game - it felt like it was dragging at times.

I had a feeling if Adel and Yos were scum in lylo together the town were screwed - they got played like a fiddle.

[Hoopla]

Thanks for hosting Fonzie.