Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[The Fonz]

Looking for a replacement for Xyzzy.

I may have a temp replacement lined up for BM.

[Natirasha]

tl;dr page 38:
Hoopla: I'mma defend mahself!
Sir T: But I'll attack you!
Magisterrain: I'm here!
Xyl: But, do we need more time?
Sir T: No, we need to lynch Hoopla!

[Sir Tornado]

Hoopla: I'mma defend mahself!
Sir T: But I'll attack you!
Magisterrain: I'm here!
Xyl: But, do we need more time?
Sir T: No, we need to lynch Hoopla!

Right... and I am not even voting him

[Natirasha]

I'm just trying to make it easier for those of us who don't want to spend a good hour reading a single page of the game.

[Sir Tornado]

I'm just trying to make it easier for those of us who don't want to spend a good hour reading a single page of the game.

Seriously, a kindergarten kid will take less time than that to read the last page.

[Natirasha]

I'm just trying to make it easier for those of us who don't want to spend a good hour reading a single page of the game.

Seriously, a kindergarten kid will take less time than that to read the last page.

I'm exaggerating to prove a point.

[Sir Tornado]

I'm exaggerating to prove a point.

Perhaps the time spent might be spent better actually reading and interpreting what went on in the last page better?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla has never made a case against me today. He's just saying I am his no 1 suspect without allowing me to defend myself. And, he's voting Seraphim at the same time. Tell me, is this behaviour acceptable? And, he's saying that he thinks either Seraphim and me are scum; although not together. So, if Seraphim comes up town, that gives him the license to attack me tomorrow saying that I was his number one suspect all along.

I asked him to make a case against me twice yesterday (RL yesterday) -- he told me to stop repeating myself after the second time; and he still refuses to heed my request. If I am his main suspect, let's hear why.

I've already explained other factors weigh into a lynch. A fast approaching deadline is a good reason to change a vote to a second candidate particularly when you look at players like Natirasha who can't be bothered reading mid-sized posts.

The way I look at it, people will assign scuminess in tiers - whether or not they are actively noting the probabilities or just going by intuition isn't important. What is important, is the closer we get to deadline without coming to an agreement, more people will have to drop more 'tiers' which means the lynch is controlled by fewer people. That's bad.

By me sensing the time to decide is now and altering my position to my next choice, I'm enabling others more time to readjust to hopefully slightly shift too. In other words, I'd rather more people drop to their second choice, than some having to vote for someone they have no suspicion of.

Sorry, for the odd tangent but I think it best describes where my game is at the moment.

In his 665, he agrees with OGML's 549 but then adds:

I think OGML has a good case on Sir T, however, the thing that irks me is that the weight of the case appears in posts 400+, well after the initial vote for Sir T by OGML.

After that, he makes absolutely no mention of his suspicion towards me,

not even

when he actually votes me; until the point he unvotes me and votes Seraphim.

So, this begs a question, why am I his main suspect in this game, based on a case -- which isn't his -- which he thinks is irksome in some aspects; which is based on me setting up the lynch of the person he thinks is second scummiest in the game? Isn't this stretching credulity?

You're tarnishing my position here a little I feel. What irked me about OGML was that most of his case came after he claimed you to be scum.

This doesn't invalidate the case he presented

- it makes it suspicious that he claimed you to be scum well before he put together a case.

I think I got bogged down for a while focusing on lurkers which clouded my genuine suspicions. But I don't see the point in rehashing someone's points if it won't bring anything new to the game. The reason people make 'cases' is to persuade others, which means people have to agree.


On a side-note are you still seeking replacement or sticking it out now?

[Sir Tornado]

Hoopla, if you think it is a great case, perhaps you might want to respond to my response to it, since OGML isn't doing it?

[Sir Tornado]

On a side-note are you still seeking replacement or sticking it out now?

Had I not asked to be replaced out already, I wouldn't want to right now; but I understand many of you may have unvoted me/changed your opinion on me due to me asking to replace out, and it would be in bad taste to stay, so I am still being replaced out when The Fonz manages to find replacements, and he has to find replacements for 3 players, so it is very unlikely I would have got replaced out on D1 even if I hadn't been posting so much. Obviously, BM and Xyzzy who aren't posting should get replaced out first.

[Hoopla]

Not including 'catching up now, posting soon' posts, here in a list of player's last game related post, to illustrate how important the deadline coming up is.

Sir Tornado -

10 hours

Natirasha -

18 hours

Seraphim -

32 hours

magisterrain -

36 hours

(please read/catch up)
Xlythixlm -

42 hours

iamusername -

45 hours

Ectomancer -

48 hours

tubby216 -

48 hours

Der Hammer -

50 hours

OhGodMyLife -

60 hours

Shanba -

65 hours

curiouskarmadog -

68 hours

Yosarian2 -

72 hours

vollkan -

80 hours

farside22 -

15 days

skitzer -

15 days

militant - 1 month (limited access in signature)
SensFan -

1 month

(V/LA for holidays)
Claus - Announced V/LA until the 6th
xyzzy -

replacing

Battle Mage -

replacing

Here is the current vote count:

Seraphim (6): Claus, curiouskarmadog, Der Hammer, Natirasha, vollkan, Hoopla
Der Hammer (5): Xylthixlm, Seraphim, Sir Tornado, tubby216, Shanba
Tubby216 (3): SensFan, Yosarian2, xyzzy
Sir Tornado (2): OhGodMyLife, Ectomancer
OhGodMyLife (1): farside22,
curiouskarmadog (1): iamausername
Shanba (1): (Battle Mage)

not voting: magisterrian , skitzer, militant

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

The problem is that most of the most active players have already got their vote on one of the top two candidates. The inactive players - the one's we need to secure a lynch, have spread their votes too much.

We're now 5 days away from the deadline. There are some players who can't help the position they're in - and I'm not having a go at them, but we need to take into consideration the possibility of others missing. If you're here, start posting so we can compromise a lynch. Nothing has happened in the last 3 days - and nothing will continue to happen if you don't do anything.

[Hoopla]

On a side-note are you still seeking replacement or sticking it out now?

Had I not asked to be replaced out already, I wouldn't want to right now; but I understand many of you may have unvoted me/changed your opinion on me due to me asking to replace out, and it would be in bad taste to stay, so I am still being replaced out when The Fonz manages to find replacements, and he has to find replacements for 3 players, so it is very unlikely I would have got replaced out on D1 even if I hadn't been posting so much. Obviously, BM and Xyzzy who aren't posting should get replaced out first.

My optimum choice has shifted recently - I think you'd be pretty valuable if you are town-aligned, moreso than Der Hammer or Seraphim which to me is important in a D1 lynch. I have no problems with you staying, infact I'd encourage you to do so.

Hoopla, if you think it is a great case, perhaps you might want to respond to my response to it, since OGML isn't doing it?

I'll make a post on this very soon.

[Sir Tornado]

I'll make a post on this very soon.

Cheers.

My optimum choice has shifted recently - I think you'd be pretty valuable if you are town-aligned, moreso than Der Hammer or Seraphim which to me is important in a D1 lynch. I have no problems with you staying, infact I'd encourage you to do so.

Don't think so. Asking for replacement is an out of game action. If someone is unvoting me because of it (and, a few people have said they were because I asked for replacement) then I cannot take advantage of that; even if I don't genuinely need to be replaced at a later time before the replacement is found. It's unethical.

[Claus]

Very quick post, I'm still V/LA, but I check the thread every now and then.

On post 916, Seraph answers my post with an accusation of DH. Shanba then says that he is "acting townie", and unvotes. I disagree with Shanba.

I am not really satisfied by that defense of seph. All I see is someone about to be lynched, cheering the lynch of the runner up. Not a townie giving his hostest opinions about the other players, which was what I expected.

I'm still happy with my Seph vote, and would love to see him lynched

Cheers, and until later.

[Hoopla]

D1 lynches are inherently going to be less likely to produce a scum result due to lack of information. I believe it to be a decent ploy to lynch someone who has their hand in many debates and interacts with many players, because if they do flip scum you're got a lot of data to link players with. You're then taking the risk of lynching someone active who is town - making cases, in a town full of lurkers, which could hurt you later in the game.

A lot of the game I tried focusing on lurkers, getting them to post to justify to myself a lynch of you or OGML for information, but it's getting to the stage where sacrificing information in favour of a policy-lynch seems to be a more beneficial result for the town in the long-run.

More specifically on the Sir T case presented by OGML, I've mentioned previously the weight of the case is beyond the 400 post mark - I think Sir T adequately defends himself for his early gameplay. Now, just as much as I jumped on OGML for claiming certainties, this struck me the wrong way too;

1) I am convinced CKD is town. His attack on Sensfan seems to be very righteous and passionate.

I dislike this more than someone claiming certainties on scum, particularly when Sens lurked then posted bits and pieces - it was a simple case to put together.

Ah, the overconfidence...

I do play distinctly different as scum and as town usually, but the play style in this game is deliberately supposed to be a bit ambiguous because I was being sick of being NKed, especially after being NKed on N1 in my last game (which I was really starting to enjoy).

This quote is bad, firstly the bit about overconfidence when read in conjunction on his thoughts of CKD. Secondly, the ambiguous playstyle comment is a rubbish way to evade to scrutiny. It's essentially a cloak where you can attribute anything someone finds scummy about you to your playstyle, saying you were meant to do it. You retort to this with a predictable 'check my meta' reply;

Perhaps you want to see my last 3-4 games?

To be fair, I think the rest of the case/replies were valid and possibly being misconstrued by both parties. My main beef is the ambiguous play-style comment and meta-defense which I hope doesn't resurface.

One thing that does need to be addressed is this;

Hoopla, if you think it is a great case, perhaps you might want to respond to my response to it, since OGML isn't doing it?

Ordinarilly it isn't a great case - but for D1 I think it has enough value, and coupled with other lynch factors it was good. I've reread the game a few times, and I guess there's an element of intuition - but I'm doing my best to explain my thought process behind my view of you. Overall, I think we're overvaluing this exchange, mainly because D1 reads are fairly inconsequential in the long-run of the game, particularly when I don't have a read on half the players yet. I'm at a stage where lynch value is starting to play a big factor, as opposed to flat-out scumminess.

I don't think this topic warranted a page long debate when I don't have my vote on you now.

[Sir Tornado]

I am not really satisfied by that defense of seph. All I see is someone about to be lynched, cheering the lynch of the runner up. Not a townie giving his hostest opinions about the other players, which was what I expected.

Actually, yes, I feel this point points to scumminess of Seraphim. But it also applies to Der Hammer.

What clinches it for Der Hammer is, though that he has done this twice; he voted for me due to a completely crap reason when I was competing with him for the lynching spot; and now he's changed it to Seraphim when he's the competition.

And, I am not replacing out due to discussions with The Fonz.

[Sir Tornado]

I dislike this more than someone claiming certainties on scum, particularly when Sens lurked then posted bits and pieces - it was a simple case to put together.

I was referring to the tone of his attack. Besides, only people with tinted glasses can see this as scum tell. Buddying isn't scum tell unless it is done on a regular basis in the game. It's of no use if I have one or two comment posted somewhere in 70 pages which can be interpreted as a "buddying up" post.

This quote is bad, firstly the bit about overconfidence when read in conjunction on his thoughts of CKD. Secondly, the ambiguous playstyle comment is a rubbish way to evade to scrutiny. It's essentially a cloak where you can attribute anything someone finds scummy about you to your playstyle, saying you were meant to do it. You retort to this with a predictable 'check my meta' reply;

To be fair, I think the rest of the case/replies were valid and possibly being misconstrued by both parties. My main beef is the ambiguous play-style comment and meta-defense which I hope doesn't resurface.

The "ambigious" style applied only to my very early posts. From the point where I posted on page 15/16 till now on, I reverted back to my original play style. Thus, the meta fits. If you ignore my early comments and concentrate only on the posts I made from page 15/16, I will come across as rather townish; and this is how I generally look on D1 no matter what my affiliation is. The first few pages were an experimentation which failed (rather disastrously). And, btw, the "check my last 3-4 games" was response to OGML doubting my claim that I get NKed in games often (and I get pissed off about it). It has nothing to do with meta; it's just hard cold fact.

I don't think this topic warranted a page long debate when I don't have my vote on you now.

It did because you insisted I was your numero uno suspect; without having any reason to believe so (from my POV)

[Yosarian2]

On a side-note are you still seeking replacement or sticking it out now?

Had I not asked to be replaced out already, I wouldn't want to right now; but I understand many of you may have unvoted me/changed your opinion on me due to me asking to replace out, and it would be in bad taste to stay, so I am still being replaced out when The Fonz manages to find replacements, and he has to find replacements for 3 players, so it is very unlikely I would have got replaced out on D1 even if I hadn't been posting so much. Obviously, BM and Xyzzy who aren't posting should get replaced out first.

Sir T: If you can keep playing, there's no reason for you to replace out just because you said you were going to. Especally if you're going to continue to be this active.

[curiouskarmadog]

I have never been in a game with Xyzzy that he wasnt replaced...why does he bother joining games?

will be updating this game tomorrow.

[skitzer]

So I'm trying to pinpoint my view on the Der Hammer situation.

I think it would take a lot of planning to produce a fake miller claim and stick with it, but on the other hand, A miller isn't really much more than a self-proclaimed guilty result, and I'm confused by how Der Hammer is saying his role helps him. And then he goes off and self votes.

So this is either Der Hammer giving up as a true miller, on Der Hammer laying a bunch of moves to like like a giving up miller.

[Sir Tornado]

So this is either Der Hammer giving up as a true miller, on Der Hammer laying a bunch of moves to like like a giving up miller.

Even if Der Hammer is a real miller, it is unconfirmable. So, we can simply ignore that claim altogether and focus only on his general play.

[skitzer]

That's what I thought afterwards. And it's not very town play IMO.

[Seraphim]

That's what I thought afterwards. And it's not very town play IMO.

Exactly.

My case may feel like "I'm about to be lynched, attack the other possible lynchee!"

But you'll quickly notice that I've had my vote on Der Hammer for quite some time. You should also notice that Der Hammer has been using the same sort of play since he claimed.

That being said, if you are not voting for myself or Der Hammer, voting now is the best thing you can do. Even though I'm town, a no-lynch is not going to help the town in the slightest. If you're not voting, VOTE NOW.

[Xylthixlm]

Der Hammer lynch > Seraphim lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Obviously everyone is going to be busy between today and tomorrow because of new years, but I will make a final reflection post on the day in case I am lynched. This should come in the next few days.

Still waiting for this, der hammer.

At this point, I still don't really think much of the case against him, but the way he's just stopped talking lately does not made me especally inclined to defend him.