Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Hey, Volkan. Welcome to the game.

I do have a question for everybody who is on the Tubby wagon, however: Are you prepared to take it to lynch if he doesn't post --

Yes.

I wouldn't be happy about lynching him based just on what he's posted so far, but yes, I would be willing to do it. Pressure wagons don't work unless there is a real threat, an actual risk that if they player dosn't give in to the pressure and start acting in a more pro-town way, that he might be lynched.

Besides, based on his posting right now, I consider Tubby to be somewhat less likely then random to be town, and if he is town much less likely then random to be helpful town. Which adds up to "not a bad day 1 lynch", at least unless he starts posting some content that might change my mind about that, or unless a better wagon comes along.

[Sobeahero]

These are are in response to the new guy. :[

17:Bandwagons are fun is hardly the reasoning. I just agreed with GC at the time. Had you read the paranthasese, you'd have noticed that. No lynches don't really show anything about the person, thus I don't really like it. :p

41: How can you be sure I was wrong though? If you beleive that, you'd have to take Hoopla for his word on things. There is no garuntee that had discussion not started, if he ever would have brought himself into the limelite. But he was called out enough that there really isn't much choice for him to do anything else. So why is it you, by default, seem to believe Hoopla? Do you have a reason to trust his word?

72: There is not direct controdiction. I say I did not Contraversial, though I still think it looked scummy. Something being contraversial, on the same note, doesn't by default make it a scummy move.

In additon, I never said it would lcear GC, simply show that the two are not on the same anti-town faction, assuming there are more then one faction in this game. GC will not be cleared even if BM were to be scum. But even learning that theres a faction GC isn't on that does get us closer to confirming his Alignment.

88: Well If I missed the point, care to explain it rather then going "HE doesn't undersatnd, clearly he is suspicious."

215: I even asked them at the time to show me any posts where that wasn't true. They never came through, so I went under that assumption. Its true, AFTER that post I saw Shanaba actually arguing, but previosly his posts consisted of repeats of what everyone else said, and a few other vague claims. Agian, show me where I'm wrong and I'll conceed the point. :p

And how is voting for someone to reveal someone elses alignment stupid for starters? Day one you can never be too sure of your accusations, so you go off your best guesses. Even in me and BM's little argument, he agreed some of my reasoning for voting him was his same reasoning for voting GC, so how can you say my reasoning is crap when BM is used teh some of that very same reasoning, something you have been constantly saying is a good thing due to yoru constant praising of BM and his posts?

Next, Its ratehr clear I'm not just targetting certain inactives. first was Hoopla, then BM, followed by Der and Shanba. Shanba and BM had posted quite a bit, so I was hardly looking for certain inactives. :p

Finally, I still find "I may be a power role scummy" because all that does is try to scare someone away from voting you. Nothing more. Its not using an actual defense, its a fear tactic. Not something I myself find something a likely move for a town.

Feel free to counter and tell me any points I missed against me. I'll look back over your post afterwords and comment on anything else I notice, I don't do to well when trying to focus on to many things, and your post is full of crap to focus on. :p

[curiouskarmadog]

see sig (posting in 3 games)

[Hoopla]

Hey vollkan, welcome to the game. You caught up quick! Quicker than some who have been here the whole time...

Anyway, I do have a few things I want to address, but I only have time to field this which directly relates to me;

I do have a question for everybody who is on the Tubby wagon, however: Are you prepared to take it to lynch if he doesn't post --

I think so, ideally I'd love tubby to come out of shell and gives us thoughts on the game so we don't have to. But like Yos said, if there isn't any real chance of a lynch from a pressure wagon then they aren't serving their purpose.

[tubby216]

whats the vote count at now??

[The Fonz]

Going to the list for replacements for GeorgeCarlin and ZTR.

Tubby216 (5): Seraphim, Hoopla, SensFan, militant, OhGodMyLife
Shanba (2): Mattle Bage, sobeahero
Battle Mage (2): Natirasha, Der Hammer
Sensfan (1) - curiouskarmadog
Sir Tornado (1): Shanba
OhGodMyLife (1) - Ectomancer
xyzzy (1) - farside22
CuriousKarmaDog (1) - tubby216
Natirasha (1): Natirasha
Killa Seven (1): Yosarian2
Hoopla (1)- (GeorgeCarlin)

Not voting: Sir Tornado, xyzzy, Puta Puta, vollkan, Killa Seven, (ZTR)

22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[The Fonz]

Incognito replaces GeorgeCarlin.

Make him welcome!

[Incognito]

Yo. What's up?

I'm reading and should have something put together by the end of the week.

[Yosarian2]

Hey, welcome to the game.

[killa seven]

welcome volkan and incognito

[militant]

Welcome Incognito and Volkan

[Der Hammer]

Will make a post more with a more detailed amount of my thoughts so far later

[Hoopla]

After a couple of rereads I find my attention shifting more and more to OGML. I think he is one of the players (along with Der Hammer) that has given an illusion of activity without offering too much.

Post 30: His first post, essentially agreeing with some BM logic which seems like a cheap way to hop on an early wagon and get in the game.
Post 31: Shanba doesn't let it slide and questions why he thinks it's scummy.
Post 32: OGML describes how it could have been an honest mistake but thinks it is likely for scum to jump on an anti-town tell as it's far better than a random vote.

This passage of play is contradicting as OGML jumps on an anti-town tell himself in his first post to avoid a random vote, and then berates GC for essentially the same ploy. Normally I wouldn't think jumping on an early anti-town tell is signifigant, but contradictions are.

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

Posts 129 and 132 happen in quick sucession - OGML disagrees with Yos and Shanba buddying. Not a lot of insight.
Post 154, out of nowhere votes Sir Tornado without reason, when Sir T's last post was back at 125.
Strangely Sir T now posts at 157 and 158 but doesn't question the vote at all.

I presume OGML does have some answers for this vote, particularly after comments in Post 202, about a bigger wagon for Sir T.

In Posts 256 and 257, myself and Ectomancer enquire about his motives behind the Sir T vote. Ectomancer also thinks the switch to the Tubby wagon is suss.

Post 264, OGML instead chooses to talk about BM's out of date lurker list, and is still yet to provide reason for many of his actions. He hasn't contributed a post of more than two lines, bar one occasion. A lot of his posts are rebuttles to arguments that don't directly relate to him, as well as a few agree posts without expanding or explaining why he agrees.

So until I get a few more answers, particularly about the Sir Tornado vote, I'm going to:

unvote, vote: OhGodMyLife

[Battle Mage]

Consider me V/LA from this game until i get prodded.

BM: If you do that, then whatever Shanba thinks, I'll vote you for lurking, just so you know.

Ironic really. Maybe i forgot about the game?

Basically, any time anyone says "I am going to lurk now" and then actually does it and stops posting, I think it's vote-worthy. And if you say "I'm going to lurk now" and then do, it's pretty clearly not "forgetting about the game". it's lurking stratigically for whatever reason, and that's just not something the town can allow.

It's only lurking strategically if i have something game-related to gain by it. The fact that i am lurking (and not doing a very good job of it atm) because i'm tired of arguing over non-issues, and i think with the deadlines in this game such as they are, we have almost TOO MUCH time on our hands, is not strategic. It's merely not especially pro-active.

Sorry, just the incessant bickering about non-game related stuff is grating on me. You guys sort it out amongst yourselves.

:eyebrow: What "non-game related stuff"?

[/quote]

Discussing whether me posting or not is helpful.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Going to the list for replacements for GeorgeCarlin and ZTR.

Tubby216 (5): Seraphim, Hoopla, SensFan, militant, OhGodMyLife
Shanba (2): Mattle Bage, sobeahero
Battle Mage (2): Natirasha, Der Hammer
Sensfan (1) - curiouskarmadog
Sir Tornado (1): Shanba
OhGodMyLife (1) - Ectomancer
xyzzy (1) - farside22
CuriousKarmaDog (1) - tubby216
Natirasha (1): Natirasha
Killa Seven (1): Yosarian2
Hoopla (1)- (GeorgeCarlin)

Not voting: Sir Tornado, xyzzy, Puta Puta, vollkan, Killa Seven, (ZTR)

22 alive, 12 to lynch.

Mattle Bage? You've GOT to be kidding me...

MB

[The Fonz]

skitzer replaces ZTR.

Woot woot!

[OhGodMyLife]

So until I get a few more answers, particularly about the Sir Tornado vote, I'm going to:

unvote, vote: OhGodMyLife

Cases that end with "until I get answers to these outstanding questions" are really flimsy. That dawned on me recently.

To answer Vollkan, yes I'd be willing to carry the tubby wagon through to a lynch if necessary.

Hoopla, I'll get back to you.

[Seraphim]

Yeah, I'd carry a Tubby lynch through. Strategic lurking, which is what tubby is doing, is either awful town play or scum tactics to avoid a read, both of which are lynchable offenses.

[Hoopla]

So until I get a few more answers, particularly about the Sir Tornado vote, I'm going to:

unvote, vote: OhGodMyLife

Cases that end with "until I get answers to these outstanding questions" are really flimsy. That dawned on me recently.

Maybe it's me giving you an incentive to tell me your reasons, but I'm actually a bitch and have little reason to change my vote!

[Puta Puta]

Tubby is a lurker, like me...there can only be one lurker (me!) so he's got to go.

Vote:Tubby

[tubby216]

Yeah, I'd carry a Tubby lynch through. Strategic lurking, which is what tubby is doing, is either awful town play or scum tactics to avoid a read, both of which are lynchable offenses.

what are you talkin about??

I'm allvwing this continue beacuse:

1) i think its funny
2) its telling more about everyone else in the game,
3) i highly doubt i will get lynched today but if i do thats ok to i just hope everyone is paying attention

[Hoopla]

Yeah, I'd carry a Tubby lynch through. Strategic lurking, which is what tubby is doing, is either awful town play or scum tactics to avoid a read, both of which are lynchable offenses.

what are you talkin about??

I'm allvwing this continue beacuse:

1) i think its funny
2) its telling more about everyone else in the game,
3) i highly doubt i will get lynched today but if i do thats ok to i just hope everyone is paying attention

This is ridiculous, why are you being so unhelpful? If this is telling more about everyone in the game, what have you learned from the six people voting you?

You will get lynched if you keep playing this way, let me reassure you.

I didn't realize the lulz was part of your win condition.

[tubby216]

dear hoopla,

all will be revealed, just have faith,,,

[vollkan]

Hey, Volkan. Welcome to the game.

I do have a question for everybody who is on the Tubby wagon, however: Are you prepared to take it to lynch if he doesn't post --

Yes.

I wouldn't be happy about lynching him based just on what he's posted so far, but yes, I would be willing to do it. Pressure wagons don't work unless there is a real threat, an actual risk that if they player dosn't give in to the pressure and start acting in a more pro-town way, that he might be lynched.

Besides, based on his posting right now, I consider Tubby to be somewhat less likely then random to be town, and if he is town much less likely then random to be helpful town. Which adds up to "not a bad day 1 lynch", at least unless he starts posting some content that might change my mind about that, or unless a better wagon comes along.

Okay good. The reason I ask is that, like you it seems, I think pressure wagons are inherently useless (and, thus, an excellent time-sink for scum) unless people are actually prepared to follow through.

Is there any reason in particular why you think Tubby scummier-than-average, rather than just arsehole town?

17:Bandwagons are fun is hardly the reasoning. I just agreed with GC at the time. Had you read the paranthasese, you'd have noticed that. No lynches don't really show anything about the person, thus I don't really like it. :p
[/quoe]

I never said "bandwagons are fun" was the reason (I actually wouldn't have a problem if it was). My questioning of post 17 primarily focuses on your attacks on no lynch. Quoted for posterity:

Needless to say, a single vote for NL does not casue a NL. Really, a mislynch without any argument is worse than a NL. So, by this logic, it would be inherently suspect to cast a random vote, given the odds of voting a townie. This is complete crap, of course, because one vote does not maketh a lynch (or a no lynch, as the case may be) (+1)

You said:

Bandwagons are fun! (That and I agree with the whole 'no lynch is bad' sentamant.)

Vote: Hoopla

Thus, what I was attacking was your insinuation that no lynch votes are bad because no lynch is bad. That same logic would say that random votes are bad because random lynches are bad (worse, in fact, than no lynches)

41: How can you be sure I was wrong though? If you beleive that, you'd have to take Hoopla for his word on things. There is no garuntee that had discussion not started, if he ever would have brought himself into the limelite. But he was called out enough that there really isn't much choice for him to do anything else. So why is it you, by default, seem to believe Hoopla? Do you have a reason to trust his word?

41: Sobe repeats GC's mantra that a random vote on a player can help down the line.

Again, evidence please.

Also, he is completely wrong to say Hoopla wasn't seeking discussion. As Hoopla's bolding itself showed, Hoopla's whole point was to spark discussion (+1)

Firstly, I'd love something from you on the bold.

Secondly, as to your questions for me. I am self-voter and I can see myself doing exactly what Hoopla did (including the ironic bolding of the stuff about generating discussion). The way he has explained himself post facto only fits with the profile of the discussion-generating self-voter. For that reason, I am prepared to trust Hoopla's justification of his self-vote. Note that I don't think this has any bearing on his alignment. Scum can self-vote to generate discussion and so can town.

72: There is not direct controdiction. I say I did not Contraversial, though I still think it looked scummy. Something being contraversial, on the same note, doesn't by default make it a scummy move.

Post 17:

Bandwagons are fun! (That and

I agree with the whole 'no lynch is bad' sentamant.

)

Vote: Hoopla

Post 72:

Voting No lynch doesn't seem all that controversial to me, as its easy to see why one wouldn't want to take the chance of lynching town.

In 17, you seem to be pretty clearly disparaging no lynch, but by 72 (without acknowledgment of any mental shift) you have changed tune completely.

88: Well If I missed the point, care to explain it rather then going "HE doesn't undersatnd, clearly he is suspicious."

BM was arguing that the idea that he should be lynched to determine GC's alignment is manifestly absurd. It runs the risk of wasting an entire day, giving scum a free night and offing a power role. Your rebuttal to this in 88, I will quote: (everything below comes from 88)

I never ignored the possibility you are a power role. I'm just not ignoring the possibility that you are Mafia either. You voted GC. Ever though maybe HE might be a power role? That seems like a very weak defense. :p

This is just twisting the onus of proof. It isn't incumbent on BM to show he is NOT mafia. You need to show there are good reasons for thinking he IS

And I only acknowledge that if you are town and lynched, we waste a lynch on a town and learn nothing. But guess what? Same thing happens if GC is town. If he's lynched town, we learn nothing. Unless you can give me a reason why him flipping town yields any additional information, you're voting at the same risks I am. :p

This ignores the fact that BM wasn't voting Carlin simply for information reasons.

And I pick you over GC for this simple reason, you've been rather redundant with yoru reasonings why me voting for you is silly.

-We get no info if you flip town? We get no info if GC flips town either. We are both taking the same risk if we are both town, so its a silly argument.

-Saying you disagree with the sentamant that Scum would start instead of follow? They can do both, so thats not much of a point. :p

- The whole 'I could be a power role' line? Same goes for GC.

In short, I vote for you for redundant and pointless defenses. :p

BM gave plenty of reasons;
- Same as above. This is drawing an equivalence between a serious suspicion lynch and an "information lynch"
- BM never positively said scum wouldn't start. He just said that they are not more likely to start than follow.
- Again, this ignores the whole suspicion-information distinction

Tubby is a lurker, like me...there can only be one lurker (me!) so he's got to go. Vote:Tubby

what are you talkin about??

I'm allvwing this continue beacuse:

1) i think its funny
2) its telling more about everyone else in the game,
3) i highly doubt i will get lynched today but if i do thats ok to i just hope everyone is paying attention

*sigh* Could both of you just replace out?

[Puta Puta]

Tubby, the tribe has spoken, it's time for you to go.