Mini 574: Portal Mafia: HUGE SUCCESS

[Gorrad]

/confirm. We do what we must because we can.

[Gorrad]

Finally caved and bought a 360, Rock Band, and Orange Box today. Portal ROCKS!

[Gorrad]

My computer has and will NEVER touch a first-person game other than Oblivion (Which due to the next sentence, was played for under a week). Plus, anything more complex than WoW kills it.

[Gorrad]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwww

Y'know what? YOU'RE ewwwwwwwwwwwww. Huh? How'dya like THAT, Mr. Fancy Pants?

[Gorrad]

I'm wearing shorts. My statement stands.

[Gorrad]

'Fancy' is an opinion, and is therefore relative. To me, your pants are fancy.

My statement stands, your statement stands in fancy pants.

[Gorrad]

I'm making a

Vote: scotmany12

here (huge success).

[Gorrad]

Unvote, Vote: Your Worst Nightmare

, what's with all the screaming?

I don't think L-3 is a big deal at all. Heck, knowing Flameaxe, I'd EXPECT it. That guy revels in latter-half votes.

[Gorrad]

Unvote, Vote: Your Worst Nightmare

, what's with all the screaming?

Re-check your Volume Control Device. No one is screaming here yet.

I don't think L-3 is a big deal at all. Heck, knowing Flameaxe, I'd EXPECT it. That guy revels in latter-half votes.

Exactly. I don't know Flameaxe. I don't know

any

of you. I am totally and completely un-biased. Hence, theoretically a better player.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

UN-BIASED

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHA
AHAHAH
AHAHAH
AHAH
AHAH
AHA
AH

That was funny. Really.

I laughed more about lack of metas making a better player. Also, joined in 2006 and 7 game posts? I'm calling alt here.

I feel fantastic about my vote.

[Gorrad]

Unvote, Vote: Your Worst Nightmare

, what's with all the screaming?

Re-check your Volume Control Device. No one is screaming here yet.

I don't think L-3 is a big deal at all. Heck, knowing Flameaxe, I'd EXPECT it. That guy revels in latter-half votes.

Exactly. I don't know Flameaxe. I don't know

any

of you. I am totally and completely un-biased. Hence, theoretically a better player.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

UN-BIASED

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHA
AHAHAH
AHAHAH
AHAH
AHAH
AHA
AH

That was funny. Really.

I laughed more about lack of metas making a better player. Also, joined in 2006 and 7 game posts? I'm calling alt here.

I feel fantastic about my vote.

That's kinda what I was hinting at...

Ah. Sorry, My. Fancy Pants, I couldn't tell amongst all the laughing.

[Gorrad]

EBWOP: Mr. Fancy Pants.

[Gorrad]

I don't think L-3 is a big deal at all. Heck, knowing Flameaxe, I'd EXPECT it. That guy revels in latter-half votes.

Exactly. I don't know Flameaxe. I don't know

any

of you. I am totally and completely un-biased. Hence, theoretically a better player.

Also, joined in 2006 and 7 game posts? I'm calling alt here.

Well, you found me. Congratulations. Was it worth it? Because despite your violent behavior, the only thing you've managed to break so far is my heart. Maybe you could settle for that, and we'll just call it a day.

We do what we must because we can.

[Gorrad]

And you ignore post 75. Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a core point making a post on you?

[Gorrad]

And you ignore post 75. Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a core point making a post on you?

As part of a required test protocol, our previous statement suggesting that we were an alternate account was an outright fabrication. Good job. As part of a required test protocol, we will stop enhancing the truth in three, two, o--

Take that as you will.

Take a point called 'z' in a complex argument, and if z1!=z^2+c...well, the point is that you lied pretty big time. LAL.

[Gorrad]

@Gorrad: Are you saying you are willing to lynch Nightmare if he

does not

have an alt account? Or if he does? Or something else entirely?

YWN made two statements that were both centers of arguments (First pro-him, second anti-me) and contradictory. He then admits to falsehood. Given their contexts, I don't think either were jokes, but, as he stated, found out lies. Who lies? Scum lie. I can feel the lynch unfold in front of me.

[Gorrad]

I didn't see any questions there, and still don't. Can you clarify? I AM still alive.

[Gorrad]

I didn't see any questions there, and still don't. Can you clarify? I AM still alive.

The part where I said, "What's all this stuff about alts?" is undeniably a question. You have some reasoning for voting Nightmare based on alts which seems flawed to me and I've explained why, the obvious thing for you to do would be to explain why it's not flawed (or concede that it is).

I missed that. Post 99 should explain my point. He based one or more argument on lies. As they burned it hurt because I was so happy for town!

[Gorrad]

Been playing Brawl, and have only skimmed the last bit. I'll try for a reread in the next day or so, but no promises. My schedule's mostly full till Sunday.

[Gorrad]

Copied from V/LA:

Brawl. OMGWTFBBQAWESOME!

Distracted until Sunday. Expect daily reads but not much more.

[Gorrad]

Ok, I've been thinking about the post where someone (forget who) said that they had invited YWN to come play the game. I didn't get ANY joke vibes from him, but I'm going to chalk that down to bad reading. If he's an experienced player who doesn't play on this site, it makes a lot more sense. I'm going with a gut on Mistef

Unvote, Vote: Mistef

. Also, I'm going to stop quoting Jonathan Coulton songs.

As a clarification, I AM still going to be ont he site through Sunday. I'll just have considerably limited access, due to massive amounts of vijagames (I also got Rock Band).

[Gorrad]

Doh! And once again late night posting screws me over.

Unvote, Vote: Akonas

. I just got the names mixed up, sorry! I really haven't liked his posts so far, they seem short, misinterpretive, and scummy.

Also, it's a complete coincidence that I've got limited acces until Sunday. I'm going to/hosting gaming parties every day Wednesday-Saturday this week, trying to unlock music and such for them.

[Gorrad]

Gunsmith (can see if people have the ability to kill).

[Gorrad]

Thank you Glork! I'm always against D1 NLs, so I'm staying with Akonas for now but will switch if it's coming close to deadline and it's needed elsewhere. Flameaxe is a bad wagon. Please get off it, onto Akonas or MM perhaps.

Also, keep in mind that since there's a Gunsmith there will likely be at least one of the following: Vig, Devil, Cult, other protown killer, other antitown nonkiller. Glork doesn't put in roles for no reason in my experience.

[Gorrad]

I know what is next
Guardian will do Haiku
Beat him to the punch

[Gorrad]

I've been in a scumchat game with one, and flavor-based gunsmiths are fairly common in theme games from what I've seen, but this is the first time I've seen a straight-up gunsmith in a game on the site.

[Gorrad]

I find C. most likely, then B. minus myself, then D., then A. I also like how you left yourself out of all those groups then asked people for opinions.

[Gorrad]

Ether's better than Akonas, for sure.

Unvote, Vote: M-M

. I'm willing to give Akonas the terrible Townie doubt, but only so far.

IGMEOY: Ether

.

[Gorrad]

Vote: MM

That makes 5, and I don't think people voting MM would vote Miz instead.

Odd conclusion. Ever was attacking Miztef just a few posts ago, Gorrad doesn't appear to have even seen the wagon yet, and a quarter of the town doesn't have votes out.

M-M, claim.

Which wagon? The M-M wagon? I've seen it, what makes you think otherwise? I haven't commented on it because I'm happy about it.

[Gorrad]

Unvote, Vote: populartajo

. Agreed.

M-M, consider using yourself as a one-shot cop and saying who you will target beforehand. Might make things better.

[Gorrad]

I get your drift, good call.

[Gorrad]

Unvote

To use the common phrase: 'WTF!?!?'

[Gorrad]

Will you revote before deadline? There's no doubt he's today's lynch.

[Gorrad]

YWN cannot kill.

[Gorrad]

Ha, beat ya .

[Gorrad]

Also, as we do indeed have two NKs, we either have an SK or a vig and cult. The fact that I'm a gunsmith means that there will be SOMETHING to throw me off. It also means that YWN isn't confirmed pro-town, and could still be cult.

I, like M-M, shall be rereading shortly.

[Gorrad]

Reread results: Focus on The Jester (known scum), Sir Tornado, Mistef, and Incognito

184, 233, 244, 255

The portal will open in 3... 2.. 1. *Leaves room*

Flameaxe - Didn't like his vote on scot, but he's unvoted, and his posts feel content-less. Soufflé maybe?

Your Worst Nightmare - Doesn't seem suspicious, seems cautious.

Sir Tornado - Doesn't post much, unless it's inspiring. Grey.

Patrick - Understood YWN was joking, doesn't seem scummy.

populartajo - Feels like a silly newer player, agreed with Miz and Incong on everything or something?

Gorrad - #50, "Unvote, Vote: Your Worst Nightmare, what's with all the screaming?" What screaming? Four votes on someone when it only takes a few more on day 1 could be bad, oh wait because 3 mafia in a game is unlikely, right? Believes YWN is an alt, how stupid. The only reason he's in this game is because I asked him to. I asked him to because he loves Portal more then most. He plays mafia on a few other sites.

Miztef - 4 vote when it takes 7 to lynch day 1 is a potential speed-lynch = bad. Seemed to look suspicious and less so now.

Akonas - Same as Patrick, doesn't seem suspicious.

Machiavellian-Mafia - Feels grey to me right now, not too sure.

Incognito - I didn't like his vote reasons on YWN. Lately looks better.

scotmany12 - Seems okay, asking questions where questions should be. "They were all random and meaningless." (Concerning the votes on himself.)

Didn't we have some fun though? Remember when the platform was sliding into the fire pit and I said 'Goodbye' and you were like 'NO WAY!' and then I was all 'We pretended we were going to murder you'? That was great!

---------------

Aperture Science: We do what we must, because we can.

Scum often name their partners similarly, and also will usually claim null-tells. Note that Mistef and Incognito both have the same result, and a fairly neutral one at that. Sir Tornado is also neutral.

Ok, I pretty much believe the Gorrad claim, because I can't see someone claiming Gunsmith in a game like that due to it being a very uncommon role. (This could be WIFOM, but it's good enough for me right now).

I would very much like to see if M-M plays like this in all of his games. I can't see why placing a 4th vote on someone in random voting stage is decidedly a scum tell.

At this point, I don't think Populartajo or Flameaxe (the leading wagons) are scum, although I can't see how Patrick over reacted as Populartajo claims he did.

Miztef, do you always refer a lynch as "kill" as you did in 230?

I think, at this point, Patrick and Gorrad seem to be most likely town. No reads on Flameaxe, populartajo and Scot, neutral on YWN, The Jester and Incognito. Ether is slightly scummy due to her predecessor's play. Slightly scummy on MM.

Miztef is a bit problematic case for me. I have played with him before, and he contradicted the hell out of himself then (he was town), so I am giving him a lot of benefit of doubt here.

I agree with most of this, but what perked my interest is that he said Patrick, the night kill, was among the most protown players. Two people claimed power roles yesterday, and niether of us was NKd- instead someone Sir Tornado fingered was. Consider my eyebrow raised. Also, a terrible lurker, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a game where he was more active.

ok so, what do we have here?

Flameaxe: Unhelpful but no real evidence for being scum (mostly because his meta is unique)

Tajo: good lynch for today, there has been inconsistencies in his play and evidence for scummy behavior.

Ether: I'm liking him. I'm thinking pro-town for now. No lynching him (hence,

unvote

)

MM: Evidence against him is overused and shallow, Neutral for now.

Scotmany: Not liking his behaviour. Not giving out suspicions and giving out low levels of content. Not sure if this is scummy, but it is unhelpful at the least.

Sir Tornado: Although a bit lacking in content, I find what he does have to be well thought out. I'm leaning towards scummy (accurate and lurky) but I like him for now.

Those seem to be the people of interest right now , and that's what I think about em.

I'll vote shortly.

Mistef has been considerably wishy-washy all game. Notable here is that the result on Sir Tornado is similar to the one The Jester gave Mistef and Incognito. It's a common scum tactic- Be suspicious so you can bus if required, but have overall protown tendencies.

I feel Miz is more suspicious then MM.

His conversation with YWN was mostly suspicious to me. The whole Alt thing was blown into stupid proportions. Deadline is tomorrow, so.

Vote: Miztef

This, however, makes me wonder. He votes Mistef at a time where there was some suspicion, but Mistef was far from the popular target. This is not the reaction I'd expect if they were buddies.

Incognito, as I haven't covered him yet, has been very agressive, and towards the wrong people. Major scum vibes.

Scumlist (in order):
Incognito
Mistef (possible SK, would fit with SK/Vig killing Jester)
Sir Tornado

Vote: Incognito

[Gorrad]

Patrick was also wrong yes, but was less assertive about it. And no, I didn't see that meta, I'll take a look later today.

[Gorrad]

Because I'm a gunsmith. Therefore we can assume pretty safely that there's either a protown killer or an antitown nonkiller. Or both. Antitown nonkillers would typically be cult.

[Gorrad]

If there's a cult there's a vig. If there's an SK there's not a vig. Or there was a doc protect last night, but I don't think we'd have three NKers in this size setup.

[Gorrad]

Vigs are not always accompanied by cults, no, and there's always the chance we're only dealing with scum. Given who made this game, I actually wouldn't be surprised by either outcome. If we have a confirmed vig, though, we should keep a weather eye out. Something in this game is going to have been specifically put there to throw my results.

[Gorrad]

and the whole situation could potentialy also explain why Gorrad can't dismiss the idea of me being anti-town, even though I have no killing ability

Actually, I don't blame Gorrad for still being suspicious of you. Just because he investigated you and found that you did not kill last night doesn't mean you're not scum. It's possible that only one member of the mafia has to submit the kill and that person who submits the kill is the one who would come back as the person who killed for that night.

I'd like to clarify this. My role specifically says I find out who CAN kill, not who DID kill. There's a definite chance of cult in this game.

An elaboration on that last sentence: Remember the game. There was one 'person' organising the killing, and one 'object' that everyone was obsessed with in a cult-like manner.

I hereby propose that there is a Cult of the Weighted Companion Cube in this game.

I'm FAR from sure, but I am at this stage expecting it. Games with gunsmiths almost always have a twist, and this one makes a lot of sense flavor-wise. My results confirm no one as protown. They only confirm nonscum/SK/vig.

[Gorrad]

Care to explain, Ether? Scum, Vig, Cult is not far-fetched in my opinion, SOMETHING is here to throw off my results. We can NOT assume people I clear are protown until a SK is lynched. My results mean there's a good chance of them being protown. But it does NOT confirm.

[Gorrad]

That promise was made a day before I left town. This game isn't on the bottom of my priority list, but it isn't on the top either. My posts outside of this game have no connections with this game. Those games just needed a re-read after my vacation than this one, and some still do. The fact that Incog happened to call me out once I finally got around to this game is a complete coincidence.

You know what else isn't top of that list? WEM Mafia.

I can confirm that he was on vacation, and not posting much due to that. Also, he's not a helpful person, but this level of unhelpfulness is starting to get really suspicious. Flameaxe, can you pretend to help like you usually do rather than doing nothing?

[Gorrad]

That promise was made a day before I left town. This game isn't on the bottom of my priority list, but it isn't on the top either. My posts outside of this game have no connections with this game. Those games just needed a re-read after my vacation than this one, and some still do. The fact that Incog happened to call me out once I finally got around to this game is a complete coincidence.

You know what else isn't top of that list? WEM Mafia.

I can confirm that he was on vacation, and not posting much due to that. Also, he's not a helpful person, but this level of unhelpfulness is starting to get really suspicious. Flameaxe, can you pretend to help like you usually do rather than doing nothing?

No. WEM is at the top. Just not the flavor. Keeping the game running is. Sorry I couldn't pretend to help while I was lurking on vacation, as that seems what V/LA has become.

Well, you're off! Wanna give us a scumlist?

[Gorrad]

Cool

[Gorrad]

I have a question for Gorrad. What does your role really do? You said that you can investigate someone and this tells you if they can kill or not? Correct?

Correct. It has nothing to do with allignment, except that it clear people from the possibility of being Mafia or SK. They could still be Devil, Cult, or any number of antitown. Or they could be Vig and I get that they CAN kill. I've also checked with Glork here, and the ability to kill means kill one's target. So if I investigated a weak doc who might kill himself, I'd get no kill ability as a result.

[Gorrad]

I have a question for Gorrad. What does your role really do? You said that you can investigate someone and this tells you if they can kill or not? Correct?

Correct. It has nothing to do with allignment, except that it clear people from the possibility of being Mafia or SK. They could still be Devil, Cult, or any number of antitown. Or they could be Vig and I get that they CAN kill. I've also checked with Glork here, and the ability to kill means kill one's target. So if I investigated a weak doc who might kill himself, I'd get no kill ability as a result.

See, the problem I have with this is that this is not a Gunsmith, and you claimed Gunsmith. A Gunsmith is someone who investigates and can find out if a person has a gun or not. What you are describing is not what a Gunsmith does so I now have problems with your claim.

Yeah, I know what a gunsmith usually does. In this case, I was given the role title of gunsmith and the ability to find out if people can kill. I dunno why Glork chose to put it that way, but I've confirmed what the ability does with him. Maybe it's because, of the role names themselves, only what, two or so? have guns. Whereas almost all, if not all of them have the ability to kill in the game. I'm finding which one kills in THIS game. Does that make sense?

Either, way, that's my role. If I know why Glork gave that title to this role, I'd tell you. But all I can do is give my best guess.

[Gorrad]

Yes, since I doubt's Gorrads because his rolename does not fit his role. And Gorrad, plenty of people carry guns. Cops, Vigs, Mafia, any variant of the doc role, etc.

@Incognito, the Jester did not take a solid stance on anyone besides maybe Gorrad. Interestingly, you seemed to ignore Akonas in that list. He was just as guilty as much as me/flame/sirt were of lurker, and the jester had him as not suspicious.

Yes, I know. In my role PM, it specifically states that I am a gunsmith and I have the ability to find out if people can kill. I then talked to Glork, and confirmed that that meant people who can kill their targets. I know it's not Gunsmith in the traditional sense. If it were up to me, I probably would have called it something different. But it was NOT up to me.

FoS: scotmany12

[Gorrad]

EBWOP: Any variant of the cop role. Doc's probably do not carry guns. My mistake.

Gorrad, I doubt that Glork would put a gunsmith in and then change the role almost completely. And you can stop restating that you talked to Glork. It can't be proven or disproven.

And there inlies the kicker.

Unvote, Vote: Scotmany12

[Gorrad]

No haiku?

FoS: Guardian

Also, M-M, has a very good point. Flameaxe, he's a claimed power role with, I might add, a correct result. Don't vote him day two when there are plenty of other scummy folks.

[Gorrad]

Guardian, that's about where I am too. I might swap my vote over to Flameaxe- this is getting ridiculous.

Also, I mentioned Devil because it's an antitown role without a kill ability. Scotmany has the role correct, although there are, as with any role, variations on it.

[Gorrad]

Scot, both those suspicions occured AFTER the reread. I got tired of Flameaxe's excuses with lack of results, and you, as Guardian said, are making a terrible assumption. I AM all but confirmed.

Also, I KNOW that my role name and ability don't match. If I was fake claiming, they would. I really enjoy the Gunsmith role, and, should it be up to me, I would have it reflect its traditional abilities. I don't make the crazy rules, I just claim them.

[Gorrad]

I didn't vote Flameaxe? I meant to vote Flameaxe.

Vote: Flameaxe

, L-1.

[Gorrad]

And by that, I of course mean

Unvote, Vote: Flameaxe

[Gorrad]

So if we lynch Gorrad and MM, and we haven't won yet, either we had 4 of the same scumgroup in a mini, or we YWN and whomever aren't the same flavor of scum as Gorrad and MM.

I didn't get this. Could you explain better, please?


I will also wait for Flameaxe to claim or something.

Unvote

, by the way.

Ok, this is a mini, yes? Four in a scumgroup is not impossible, but is unlikely considering the size. So here's the deal: If I'm town, you're cleared. If I'm scum, then M-M is ALSO scum- that's three, you're probably cleared. So, all things taken into consideration, you're almost completely confirmed as non-killer no matter my allignment.

[Gorrad]

I would wager that there is either 4 scum, or 3 scum and a sk.

You would.

[Gorrad]

He finally gave WEM a VC and prods, so he's definitely around the site.

[Gorrad]

Yeah, he usually pretends to give a dingo's kidney.

[Gorrad]

Mistef clear

[Gorrad]

I don't see any huge benefits to it, could you explain your reasoning?

[Gorrad]

Ok, I follow. Usually the order is determined randomly.

[Gorrad]

I'm good with any of abovementioned choices. Should I be chosen to make the list, I'll use the d20 in my pocket.

[Gorrad]

Guardian, Mistef, Incognito, Ether, YWN

Not including myself, as I have already claimed.

All results determined by d20.

[Gorrad]

There's no harm in asking now, I guess:

Ether, WHO did you block night 2 exactly?

Probably best to respond after YWN claims though.

She said it was Ever. Ever is Scot.

[Gorrad]

First of all, I'm going to state once more that my role specifically states that I find those with the ability to kill, not those that actively do kill. Guardian, that should answer a previous point.

Second, I think we can safely rule out a cult at this point, as no roles point to it and, barring recruit-immunity, it would be a cult win at this point.

Now Ether's plan (restated): We no-lynch. Guardian hides with Ether. Ether blocks YWN. (Alternatively, Ether blocks Incognito, who tries to kill, to show that Ether's not blocking Guardian.) Gorrad checks Guardian.

That is, barring a gunsmith-immune godfather, a remarkable plan. I'd like to propose a simple amendment though. Guardian hides with me and Incognito targets Ether, who blocks him. Not a large change, but change enough.

[Gorrad]

Maybe I'm not understanding what Guardian's role does. How does his hiding with you confirm him?

[Gorrad]

Aha! Right.

[Gorrad]

Guardian, I think you're in the wrong here- Ether's plan seems pretty solid to me. I'm ok with a Guardian lynch, but I'd rather NL and try the plan if possible.

[Gorrad]

...I don't think we're in LYLO. Huh. I thought we were for some reason. Incognito, please don't kill if Guardian turns up town. Your case is solid.

Vote: Guardian

[Gorrad]

vote: no lynch

"The plan", though it has faults, is much better than lynching me.

What are you going to do when I turn up town and there's 4 -- or 3 -- people alive tomorrow?

Lynch Ether? Lynch Incognito? Lynch YWN? Lynch Miztef?

You'll have no flipping idea what to do, because you'll have wasted today lynching me for -- ostensibly -- role-based reasons -- reasons that are leading to a completely incorrect conclusion.

No one's concretely critiqued my play in the slightest, you're just saying "oh, well, Guardian must be scum... vote."

Oh, and Incognito's note about the night 1 kill is bogus, especially since Sir T was around to make the no hide choice.

You're also ignoring how I claimed a role that did nothing N1, and Hid N2 -- that fits in perfectly with Ether's claim, that I had no way of knowing anything about. Lyching me today is a great way to start pulling defeat out of the jaws of victory.

We've got 2 scum dead, let's not throw the game away, please. Thanks.

1. That depends on night actions, doesn't it?

2. Alright. Guardian must be scum because of how much pressure he put on a working plan, as well as my results and Incognito's points.

3. That there was a no-hide is on your word alone

4. We're doing really well. We can afford to take a gamble like this that has odds so much in our favor.

[Gorrad]

It sounds like a similar stubborness I had in the recently-completed Weather Mafia. The only difference between this and the original plan is that Ether is checked by my results rather than your ability. Besides, if you would be following the plan tonight you wouldn't be worried about Incog targetting you, as you'd be hiding and immune.

Speaking of which, given that there's a Vig, after Weather Mafia Glork putting in a Mafia Hider is far from inconcievable.

[Gorrad]

Elan would be proud. Can we sacrifice Guardian to Banjothulu?

[Gorrad]

I'm investigating Ether, don't target her.

[Gorrad]

Most excellent game all!

[Gorrad]

Oh, yes.

This game was too separated from its theme, I thought. Our claims didn't even bring up flavor; the only manifestation was YWN.

Agreed.

Now that our trials are over, where is the cake? Or the Party?

*Assumes Party Escort Position*